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View Full Version : How Good was Grant Hill?



kjoke
07-04-2012, 04:50 PM
Looking at his earlier years in the NBA, he was putting up Lebron-esque numbers. What was said about him during that time?

BigBlueCrew
07-04-2012, 04:54 PM
nothing...he never call himself King Hill

phlp_bj
07-04-2012, 04:56 PM
it's king of the hill

waveycrockett
07-04-2012, 04:59 PM
In his prime he was as good as a prime Scottie Pippen. He was a monster but some ppl tried to put him on MJ's level lol

spreadeagle
07-04-2012, 05:03 PM
I remember Hill's and Kidd's MONSTER rookie seasons...god that makes me feel old lololol hes a first ballad HOFer for sure. Him Juwan Howard were so beastly back in the day. I remember Hill's old sprite commercials too, thats when he was ballin

black1605
07-04-2012, 05:03 PM
Could have been one of the greatest pros ever if he stayed healthy. Not to mention back to back national championships at Duke

Love Grant Hill.

Cromedome
07-04-2012, 05:07 PM
He was supposed to be the new Jordan/face of the league.

spreadeagle
07-04-2012, 05:07 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AdRVjOETjY <<<this brings me back! Hill is a class act all the way too, the way he became a great role player for yrs and yrs after all the injury's in a testament to his strong mental game

Hellcrooner
07-04-2012, 05:09 PM
better than Duncan, KObe or Lebron have been.

Pity injurys tore him away.

waveycrockett
07-04-2012, 05:10 PM
He was supposed to be the new Jordan/face of the league.

You could argue he was at least for a little while

spreadeagle
07-04-2012, 05:11 PM
You could argue he was at least for a little while

He was the man before Kobe...basically lol. Jordan, Hill, Garnett, Kobe, Bron, Durant/Rose...are all kinda who I think of as faces of the league over the years "Shaq Duncan too"

3RDASYSTEM
07-04-2012, 05:12 PM
In his prime(which was from day 1,not 3-5yrs later) he was better than prime PIPPEN(PIPP got him in Def,but GHILL could play D,he just had to carry more of a off. load and was unselfish like BRON passing wise), easily....people overrate PIPP/KB like i've never seen...7ppg rookies

G.HILL was fast/big/athletic with a pull up, he was too big for JORDAN to guard and too quick for PIPPEN, he destroyed'em pretty much everytime they played, and im sure they took turns on him and he made it look easy....pre injuries he was that dude

and if you pissed him off go ask MOURNING/MT.DEKE(in they prime of shot blocking greatness) what happens

thekmp211
07-04-2012, 05:12 PM
he was the closest thing to lebron before bron came around. he and t-mac healthy would have been drool-worthy, and its so awesome that he has continued to play and play well. dude is legit.

Bravo95
07-04-2012, 05:15 PM
Hill and Penny were probably the most popular players when Jordan first left. Injuries damaged both careers.

But Grant got Tamia, so he won at life.

yanksrock
07-04-2012, 05:15 PM
Hill was the dawg!!

lavell12
07-04-2012, 05:15 PM
i think he could had have been about as good as Kobe.

waveycrockett
07-04-2012, 05:17 PM
he was the closest thing to lebron before bron came around. he and t-mac healthy would have been drool-worthy, and its so awesome that he has continued to play and play well. dude is legit.

I think Penny was closer to LBJ

Hill was closer to Pippen/MJ

FUKudomeYOMOMMA
07-04-2012, 05:18 PM
dude drank sprite, nuff said... i say this while wearing my grant hill USA 5 jersey

spreadeagle
07-04-2012, 05:18 PM
Hill and Penny were probably the most popular players when Jordan first left. Injuries damaged both careers.

But Grant got Tamia, so he won at life.

**** forgot about Penny...Allan Houston had a good run too for a while, always forget him

Pistol_Pete
07-04-2012, 05:20 PM
If he had stayed healthy, he would have been insane. As mentioned, he was putting up LeBron-esque numbers. He was a do it all player who put up stats and impacted the game. He also had a Larry Fitzgerald like persona, meaning he was a genuinely nice dude and everyone wanted to play with him.

People did attach him to the "next Jordan" train, but he was a different type of player, like LeBron is. If he had no injuries he could very much have become the best SF ever (with LeBron beating him out on that).

mkdo
07-04-2012, 05:27 PM
one of the nicest guys in sports!

Bravo95
07-04-2012, 05:27 PM
I remember Hill's and Kidd's MONSTER rookie seasons...god that makes me feel old lololol hes a first ballad HOFer for sure. Him Juwan Howard were so beastly back in the day. I remember Hill's old sprite commercials too, thats when he was ballin
That was kinda the beginning of the new era.

The Fab 5 and Duke's crew had just turned pro, and J-Kidd, Shaq, Penny, etc became the new faces of the NBA.

Those Lil Penny commercials were classic.

Hawkeye15
07-04-2012, 05:28 PM
He was not as good as LeBron, but he was a top 5 player, and a unique player at that. A 20-7-6 type who played very good defense. Had he stayed healthy, he was a top 20 player ever, 1st ballot HOF'er.

Bravo95
07-04-2012, 05:31 PM
**** forgot about Penny...Allan Houston had a good run too for a while, always forget him
Yup. I hated Duke, but G-Hill became my favorite player once 'Nique got old/traded. :sigh:

Raps18-19 Champ
07-04-2012, 05:34 PM
Had the potential to break top 15.

Too bad for injuries.

spreadeagle
07-04-2012, 05:38 PM
Yup. I hated Duke, but G-Hill became my favorite player once 'Nique got old/traded. :sigh:

everyone hates Duke ;) lol but ya definitely the start of the post jordan era...doesn't seem like this new generation has as many stars compared to back then

thekmp211
07-04-2012, 05:40 PM
I think Penny was closer to LBJ

Hill was closer to Pippen/MJ

i think poor mans magic when i think penny. not as good as either of those guys in their primes.

yeah, hill was kind of a hybrid like that, big like pippen but a much better scorer. gotta watch me some youtubes and reminisce.

Bruno
07-04-2012, 05:44 PM
better than Duncan, KObe or Lebron have been.

Pity injurys tore him away.

no he wasn't. he wasn't better than any of those three guys.

Bruno
07-04-2012, 05:48 PM
from '97-'00 Hill was an elite wing. he finished 3rd in MVP voting in 1997. he peaked out very high and was a great player. it was his best season, he put up 21-9-7.3.

he only cracked the 25 ppg mark once, in 2000.

JasonJohnHorn
07-04-2012, 05:49 PM
In his prime he was as good as a prime Scottie Pippen. He was a monster but some ppl tried to put him on MJ's level lol

He was on MJ's level. Just because he didn't score as much doesn't mean he couldn't have scored. He shared the ball, but he lead his team in scoring, rebounding and assists, which very few players have done. Jordan never posted rebounding averages as high as Hill's, and had Hill not been injured he would have continued to develop.

Grant Hill was one of the best all-around players in the league, but he was kind of like Tim Duncan in that he was humble and didn't go for the lime light, and because of that, and the fact that he didn't play in LA, NY or Chi-town, people didnt talk him up as much as they would have. Most people who really knew the game knew that Hill was taking over the league, but his injuries destroyed his career.

Penny Hardaway was another player from the same time who people saw as one of the future stars of the game, before his injuries took a toll on his career. Had these two players stayed healthy, the league would have looked very different over the last 15 years.

Bravo95
07-04-2012, 05:58 PM
Duncan was a can't miss player out of Wake, like Lebron at SVSM. Grant Hill was decorated college player ("winner") with a lot of potential, but not THAT kind of potential. Which reminds me: ACC basketball was the **** in the 90s.

popo85
07-04-2012, 06:03 PM
In his prime(which was from day 1,not 3-5yrs later) he was better than prime PIPPEN(PIPP got him in Def,but GHILL could play D,he just had to carry more of a off. load and was unselfish like BRON passing wise), easily....people overrate PIPP/KB like i've never seen...7ppg rookies


Unless you don't remember Kobe didn't have the college experience like Hill, 7ppg for a 18yr kid out of high school.

ManRam
07-04-2012, 06:22 PM
better than Duncan, KObe or Lebron have been.

Pity injurys tore him away.

I love you Crooner, but that's taking it a bit too far. HE never had a year that was as good as LeBron's best years. Duncan too. Probably Kobe as well...


He was great, a top 5 player for sure. I loved watching him play and he's still one of my absolute favorites...but let's not get carried away. He was never the best player in the NBA...those three have been.

cbreezy34
07-04-2012, 06:26 PM
He was/is the man. His potential was real high... just one of the many Duke players who have refuted the myth Duke doesn't produce players in the NBA.

Chronz
07-05-2012, 01:21 PM
Top30 All-Time potential. Never on MJ or Kobes level despite how people romanticize his talent, he was more like a level above Vince Carter in his hey but below Kobe.

Hellcrooner
07-05-2012, 01:32 PM
I love you Crooner, but that's taking it a bit too far. HE never had a year that was as good as LeBron's best years. Duncan too. Probably Kobe as well...


He was great, a top 5 player for sure. I loved watching him play and he's still one of my absolute favorites...but let's not get carried away. He was never the best player in the NBA...those three have been.

grant hill was there with JORDAN and SHAQ in their late prime and prime respectively.

That isnt the case for the other players mentioned.

Hill WOULD have been the best player in the early 00s withouth the injurys.

Lakersfan2483
07-05-2012, 01:33 PM
He wasn't on Lebron or Kobe's level, however he was on his way to becoming a top 30 player of all time. He was a great overall talent.

Hoopin&Swoopin
07-05-2012, 01:38 PM
Top30 All-Time potential. Never on MJ or Kobes level despite how people romanticize his talent, he was more like a level above Vince Carter in his hey but below Kobe.

That GIF is so awesome.

Lakersfan2483
07-05-2012, 01:39 PM
better than Duncan, KObe or Lebron have been.

Pity injurys tore him away.

No he wasn't, you are talking about all time greats now that were clearly better. At his best, Grant Hill wasn't on Duncan, Kobe or Bron's level, period.....

-Kobe24-TJ19-
07-05-2012, 01:39 PM
better than Duncan, KObe or Lebron have been.

Pity injurys tore him away.

ˇToo much Tequila?

bgdreton
07-05-2012, 01:49 PM
ˇToo much Tequila?

Hahahha I love your sig what was that guy talking about isn't taking high percentage shots the call of great players! Lol

D-Leethal
07-05-2012, 01:51 PM
People thought he would legit eventually average a triple double. 20-10-7 in his Sophomore season. Became more of a scorer before blowing out his knee but was a straight beast and very fun to watch. Basically LeBron without the physical dominance.

Tymathee
07-05-2012, 01:55 PM
I'd take prime Grant Hill over prime Lebron, i just like him better *** a person lol

UnWantedTheory
07-05-2012, 02:02 PM
Grant Hill had all the talent & potential in the world to be mentioned with Kobe, LJ, etc. For those who say otherwise clearly did not watch him play or do not remember accurately. It is such a shame that injuries killed what would have been an amazing career for Grant. The fact that he has carved out a good career after all the injuries is amazing enough.

UnWantedTheory
07-05-2012, 02:09 PM
No he wasn't, you are talking about all time greats now that were clearly better. At his best, Grant Hill wasn't on Duncan, Kobe or Bron's level, period.....

I am not sure we ever saw Grant at his best honestly. No matter how one looks at a players "prime" years, it is safe to say he didn't get to actually play through them. He was smack dab in the middle of what should have been his "great" years. He was 27? when the injuries took over I believe.

Hawkeye15
07-05-2012, 02:13 PM
Grant Hill had all the talent & potential in the world to be mentioned with Kobe, LJ, etc. For those who say otherwise clearly did not watch him play or do not remember accurately. It is such a shame that injuries killed what would have been an amazing career for Grant. The fact that he has carved out a good career after all the injuries is amazing enough.

No, he wasn't on their level. I watched him his whole career. He did not have the scoring prowess of either, and didn't pass, rebound, or defend to LeBron's level.

Top 20 player ever probably, if he stayed healthy, but you are comparing him to two players already inside the top 10 most likely.

I do agree, what a shame with all the injuries.

rhymeratic
07-05-2012, 02:43 PM
Woah some of you yahoos on here are super young....

Grant Hill when he came into the league did not have an outside shot at ALL. He was a super liability from beyond the arc for a minute in the league. He had the ball in his hands a ton SIMILAR to Lebron but more of a slasher and moderate play-maker primarily because his teams never had any good PG's (Lindsey Hunter).

To me (keep in mind I'm 28) he had about the same level of impact but only SLIGHTLY longer like Penny Hardaway. So that basically means he was a top 15 player for a stretch of time like 3-5 seasons and then fell off. Hill's fall brought him to a level of solid role-player prototypical SF. Penny's fall from grace was far harsher kinda like T-Mac.

Even at Grant Hill's peak, he was not better than Vince Carter.

Oh and before we get into the "Grant was a better rebounder than VC"
A lot of that was a product of Hill having to play closer to the basket/ get his own rebounds etc because he didn't have the perimeter game that VC has ALWAYS had in his career.

I'm just saying but yeah Grant Hill was still a good dude and I hope he plays for the Lakers and get that ring. Juwan Howard getting a ring is BS. That dude was NEVER beast in this league and was actually considered a semi-bust/let down of a player.

Chronz
07-05-2012, 02:59 PM
That GIF is so awesome.

Good ol days

Chronz
07-05-2012, 03:00 PM
Grant Hill had all the talent & potential in the world to be mentioned with Kobe, LJ, etc. For those who say otherwise clearly did not watch him play or do not remember accurately. It is such a shame that injuries killed what would have been an amazing career for Grant. The fact that he has carved out a good career after all the injuries is amazing enough.

Sure he had the potential but he wasnt at their level when they were at their best. And considering he was basically in his prime by the time he was injured, I dont think its smart to assume he would have improved leaps and bounds.

C-Style
07-05-2012, 03:03 PM
I had his shoes they were Filas rolol

tredigs
07-05-2012, 03:04 PM
Looking at his earlier years in the NBA, he was putting up Lebron-esque numbers. What was said about him during that time?

He was thought to potentially be the heir to Jordan and run the league for his generation.

The praise for Grant Hill was enormous, and deserved. He was incredible.

tredigs
07-05-2012, 03:06 PM
Sure he had the potential but he wasnt at their level when they were at their best. And considering he was basically in his prime by the time he was injured, I dont think its smart to assume he would have improved leaps and bounds.

Dude averaged 26/7/5 on high efficiency the year he injured himself. He was at their level.

UnWantedTheory
07-05-2012, 03:11 PM
No, he wasn't on their level. I watched him his whole career. He did not have the scoring prowess of either, and didn't pass, rebound, or defend to LeBron's level.

Top 20 player ever probably, if he stayed healthy, but you are comparing him to two players already inside the top 10 most likely.

I do agree, what a shame with all the injuries.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I remember what the man was capable of pre injury. Again, we never got to see him at his best imo because injuries took him at age 27. Perhaps he wasn't on their level, but he was a very special player with tons of potential that never came to light.
26 7 5 before his true prime. Not too bad.

BALKIS2K12
07-05-2012, 03:17 PM
hill had the same problem Wilkins had a ****** surrounding cast.

hill did own the league when jordan retired so did penny.

tredigs
07-05-2012, 03:32 PM
No, he wasn't on their level. I watched him his whole career. He did not have the scoring prowess of either, and didn't pass, rebound, or defend to LeBron's level.

Top 20 player ever probably, if he stayed healthy, but you are comparing him to two players already inside the top 10 most likely.

I do agree, what a shame with all the injuries.

Lebron's better, but prime Lebron is as good as anyone we've seen (MJ/Magic tier). So maybe I'm over-stepping slightly when I include the best version of Grant Hill with them, but it's not a laughable comparison. Grant was truly coming into his own that year in 2000, he was flat out dominant. That Detroit team sucked though, it was him and Stack vers.

Hawkeye15
07-05-2012, 03:33 PM
We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I remember what the man was capable of pre injury. Again, we never got to see him at his best imo because injuries took him at age 27. Perhaps he wasn't on their level, but he was a very special player with tons of potential that never came to light.
26 7 5 before his true prime. Not too bad.

he was in his prime, no doubt. And dude, please don't think I don't agree he was a special talent, I said he was probably top 20 ever if he hadn't gotten hurt, that is a bad *** haha. He didn't stack up statistically to LeBron, and never enjoyed the scoring prowess or team success of Kobe, though he may have had he been healthy and a Hill/McGrady, healthy, would have been awesome.

Chronz
07-05-2012, 03:34 PM
Dude averaged 26/7/5 on high efficiency the year he injured himself. He was at their level.

Bron laughs at that production, and Kobe was putting up those same numbers with better defense on a championship level team and also topped out at 28PER.

Hawkeye15
07-05-2012, 03:35 PM
Lebron's better, but prime Lebron is as good as anyone we've seen (MJ/Magic tier). So maybe I'm over-stepping slightly when I include the best version of Grant Hill with them, but it's not a laughable comparison. Grant was truly coming into his own that year in 2000, he was flat out dominant. That Detroit team sucked though, it was him and Stack vers.

it's not laughable by any means. He was basically a poor mans LeBron essentially. He didn't have the physical strength to do what LeBron does, and wasn't quite the athlete, but he was an awesome all around player who was in my opinion a top 3-4 player for a few seasons.

justjames
07-05-2012, 03:35 PM
Grant Hill drinks Sprite. That is all that needs to be said.

Philapsychosis
07-05-2012, 03:39 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbavu2Al-ME

Just gonne leave this here........

Grant Hill was one of my favorite players growing up. People saying he woulda been better than LeBron though..... Nah, not in my opinion. Still would have been an amazing player, and not to take anything from him at all. Just don't see him in that same light

Chavacano
07-05-2012, 03:41 PM
Too bad injuries killed Hill's prime. Hill-McGrady duo would've been fun to watch. :drool:


Looking at his earlier years in the NBA, he was putting up Lebron-esque numbers. What was said about him during that time?

He came before LeBron so I don't think you can call his numbers then "LeBron-esque." :cool:

C_Mund
07-05-2012, 04:18 PM
Bron laughs at that production, and Kobe was putting up those same numbers with better defense on a championship level team and also topped out at 28PER.

True, I wouldn't say that Hill was on Lebron's level, but if you replace Kobe with a healthy Hill on the Lakers......first off that team probably stays together because Hill would be able to defer to Shaq.....second, they probably win EVERY year that Duncan doesn't.

tredigs
07-05-2012, 04:19 PM
Bron laughs at that production, and Kobe was putting up those same numbers with better defense on a championship level team and also topped out at 28PER.

His top PER's are higher than all but Kobe's top 2, and his .22 WS/48 ties Kobe's top WS/48 (his 35 point 05/06 season). Back in 96/97 the All NBA 1st team was Jordan/Hardaway/Grant hill/Malone/Olajuwon; beating out Glen Rice's best year, Scottie Pippen and everyone else. He was a monster. And the guy also played excellent D. Hell he's 38 and is still known to play shutdown defense pretty frequently.

evadatam5150
07-05-2012, 04:28 PM
better than Duncan, KObe or Lebron have been.

Pity injurys tore him away.

Sometimes I wonder if they translate the jerseys or names wrong in Spain because you make some of the most idiotic statements I've heard in a while.. Without a doubt Grant Hill was a good athlete and team player who unfortunately couldn't stay healthy long enough to prove what he was truly capable of.. But for you to say he was better than Kobe, Duncan or Lebron is just asinine to the point of verbal diarrhea coupled with ignorance.. :clap: Congrats though as you have made me laugh and for that I thank you.

Chronz
07-05-2012, 04:42 PM
Bron laughs at that production, and Kobe was putting up those same numbers with better defense on a championship level team and also topped out at 28PER.

His top PER's are higher than all but Kobe's top 2, and his .22 WS/48 ties Kobe's top WS/48 (his 35 point 05/06 season). Back in 96/97 the All NBA 1st team was Jordan/Hardaway/Grant hill/Malone/Olajuwon; beating out Glen Rice's best year, Scottie Pippen and everyone else. He was a monster. And the guy also played excellent D. Hell he's 38 and is still known to play shutdown defense pretty frequently.
Again Kobe did that on a championship team with superior defense and range. When Kobe was on a team as trashy as Hills, he put up the best PER of his career.

And Grant Hill was not a top notch defender in his prime, and certainly no where near Kobe in his.

tredigs
07-05-2012, 05:04 PM
Again Kobe did that on a championship team with superior defense and range. When Kobe was on a team as trashy as Hills, he put up the best PER of his career.

And Grant Hill was not a top notch defender in his prime, and certainly no where near Kobe in his.

Scoring and defense go to Kobe, but let's not forget who the far better rebounder and playmaker was. In his 3rd year when he was first team with Jordan the kid was averaging 9 boards and 7 assists to go along with the 20+ ppg production on 50% from the field. If we're talking all around game, it's an easy decision and that goes to Grant Hill. Kobe was the more explosive scorer and a very marginally better defender (it's funny to me that you don't remember him as an elite defender. Even in college Grant was voted the defensive player of the year). Kobe had quicker feet, but Hill could guard forwards that kobe wouldn't bother with.

Bottom line, it's an argument. Absolutely same tier.

Vinylman
07-05-2012, 05:37 PM
signs with Lakers on 1 year deal

reported on phoenix radio

Bruno
07-05-2012, 05:42 PM
Scoring and defense go to Kobe, but let's not forget who the far better rebounder and playmaker was. In his 3rd year when he was first team with Jordan the kid was averaging 9 boards and 7 assists to go along with the 20+ ppg production on 50% from the field. If we're talking all around game, it's an easy decision and that goes to Grant Hill. Kobe was the more explosive scorer and a very marginally better defender (it's funny to me that you don't remember him as an elite defender. Even in college Grant was voted the defensive player of the year). Kobe had quicker feet, but Hill could guard forwards that kobe wouldn't bother with.

Bottom line, it's an argument. Absolutely same tier.

Eh. if it is same tier, kobe is at the top of it, and hill is at the bottom. I'd argue that they are a tier apart, especially when considering defense.

These are Grant Hills top five seasons:
1996: PER- 20.9, TS%- .537, WS/48: .172, WS- 11.7
1997: PER- 25.5, TS%- .556, WS/48: .223, WS- 14.6
1998: PER- 21.1, TS%- .520, WS/48: .149, WS- 10.2
1999: PER- 23.9, TS%- .543, WS/48: .189, WS- 7.3 (lockout)
2000: PER- 24.5, TS%- .565, WS/48: .185, WS- 10.7


These are Bryants top five seasons:
2003: PER- 26.2, TS%- .550, WS/48: .210, WS-14.9
2006: PER- 28.0, TS%- .559, WS/48: .224, WS-15.3
2007: PER- 26.1, TS%- .580, WS/48: .199, WS- 13.0
2008: PER- 24.2, TS%- .576, WS/48: .208, WS- 13.8
2009: PER- 24.4, TS%- .561, WS/48: .206, WS- 12.7

Grant Hills peak WS (14.6) would be good enough to rank third on Kobes list of peak WS. BUT, Hills second highest win-shares (11.7) would be good enough for seventh on kobes WS list.

I think that Hill had peaked by 2000. He was already 27 years old. I think we saw his best, it's just a shame that he didn't have the chance to extend it through 2003 or 2004.

Hills peak PER wouldn't crack Bryants top three.

Hills peak WS/48 would be good enough for second on Kobes list, but Hills second highest WS/48 would rank 10th on Bryants list (despite six health seasons pre injury).

Scoring goes to Kobe by a wider margin than passing or rebounding goes to Grant Hill.

From 1996 through 2000 (his top five assist per game seasons), Grant Hill averaged 6.48 assists per game. Bryant averaged 5.61 assists per game in his top five assists per game seasons. Edge Hill, but my a negligible margin (.87 more assists per game). The difference in PPG is far greater.

Hill was a great player, and he was the guy who was supposed to be the next great wing after Jordan. But his peak wasn't on the same level as kobes. i don't think Hill was in the same league as bryant defensivley. for the sake of not nit-picking, maybe he is on the same tier. but there's no questions as to who peaked higher. Hill was 27 during his greatest scoring seasons, just like Kobe was. you'd have a hard time convincing me that we hadn't already seen his ceiling at 27.

tredigs
07-05-2012, 05:44 PM
signs with Lakers on 1 year deal

reported on phoenix radio

Wow. Ironic given this conversation.

And christ, this is going to be THE oldest starting lineup in NBA history. Average age will be 34!

tapajafri
07-05-2012, 06:02 PM
better than Duncan, KObe or Lebron have been.

Pity injurys tore him away.

i would have to disagree with that. no lie that grant hill wouldve been a legend and one of the greatest players of all time, but to say he was better than lebron has ever been is something I'd disagree with. Lebron is arguably the best player in nba history in terms of skills/talent/athleticism/all around offensive game/defensive skills/etc. (not legacy of course, but just on pure talent/skill)

tredigs
07-05-2012, 06:07 PM
@ Bruno, I saw the numbers - I was checking them out earlier. And if having multiple PERs that would slide right into the top 5 of Kobe's best (in a relatively injury free 16 year career where he has been at or near prime for well over 10 of them) doesn't rank you in the same tier, I don't know what else to say.

At 23 in his second year Grant put up 20/10/7 on 46% of the field while guarding the likes of both Jordan and Pippen in the same game when they played the Bulls. He was given the tough matchups almost immediately when he came into the league. For reference at the same age (and a 6 year pro), Kobe was putting up 25/5.5/5.5 on 46.9% from the field. Different games, but a 6'8" forward having the ability to do that? It was incredible.

His praise was MONSTER too, much bigger than Kobe's. I'm not joking when I say that he was pegged as the one to carry the torch for the league after Jordan. They still have the interviews up dissecting that. Talking about a guy who in his rookie year (when he was ROY) beat out Shaq for the most votes on the All Star ballot. Nobody had done that before. And then he beat out Jordan in the All-Star voting the next season when Jordan first came back. He was a triple double MACHINE (only Larry Bird and the Big O had ever averaged 20/9/7 for a season. Not even Lebron got there). And it earned him 3rd in MVP voting behind Malone and Jordan. ...In his 2nd season.

Also, I disagree that he wouldn't have improved. He was in great shape and looked quick as hell pre injury. At worst he would've maintained that production, but it was his best year yet - so it's tough to say that he wasn't still improving.

Peak Kobe was a little better, but again, same tier. And we may have never seen peak Hill. I think 25/8/7 was within reach for him if he wanted it.

Bruno
07-05-2012, 06:21 PM
@ Bruno, I saw the numbers - I was checking them out earlier. And if having multiple PERs that would slide right into the top 5 of Kobe's best (in a relatively injury free 16 year career where he has been at or near prime for well over 10 of them) doesn't rank you in the same tier, I don't know what else to say.

At 23 in his second year Grant put up 20/10/7 on 46% of the field while guarding the likes of both Jordan and Pippen in the same game when they played the Bulls. He was given the tough matchups almost immediately when he came into the league. For reference at the same age (and a 6 year pro), Kobe was putting up 25/5.5/5.5 on 46.9% from the field. Different games, but a 6'8" forward having the ability to do that? It was incredible.

His praise was MONSTER too, much bigger than Kobe's. I'm not joking when I say that he was pegged as the one to carry the torch for the league after Jordan. They still have the interviews up dissecting that. Talking about a guy who in his rookie year (when he was ROY) beat out Shaq for the most votes on the All Star ballot. Nobody had done that before. And then he beat out Jordan in the All-Star voting the next season when Jordan first came back. He was a triple double MACHINE (only Larry Bird and the Big O had ever averaged 20/9/7 for a season. Not even Lebron got there). And it earned him 3rd in MVP voting behind Malone and Jordan. ...In his 3rd season.

Also, I disagree that he wouldn't have improved. He was in great shape and looked quick as hell pre injury. At worst he would've maintained that production, but it was his best year yet - so it's tough to say that he wasn't still improving.

Peak Kobe was a little better, but again, same tier. And we may have never seen peak Hill. I think 25/8/7 was within reach for him if he wanted it.

fair enough. i guess the only thing we really disagree on is if we had seen his peak. there aren't a lot of all time greats who hadn't already peaked by the time they were 27, i don't see why Grant would be an exception.

don't get me wrong, i believe that he had the IQ, and keep good enough care of his body to age gracefully and dominate into his 30's like Kobe- he would have done that. but in terms of absolute peak, i think we saw it. :cheers:

tredigs
07-05-2012, 06:37 PM
fair enough. i guess the only thing we really disagree on is if we had seen his peak. there aren't a lot of all time greats who hadn't already peaked by the time they were 27, i don't see why Grant would be an exception.

don't get me wrong, i believe that he had the IQ, and keep good enough care of his body to age gracefully and dominate into his 30's like Kobe- he would have done that. but in terms of absolute peak, i think we saw it. :cheers:

I dunno my friend, he averaged 26 a game his last healthy season and that was a solid ~5 points higher than he ever had before. It was his best season, he was clearly still getting better at least up to that point. He even shot 35% from three that year, which was new for him. He rarely took them before, and when he did he missed. Also 80% from the line (which was 50% higher than his previous best). He was starting to put it all together. You have to remember that he was a 4 year college grad so by the age of his injury he was only a 6 year pro. Lots of guys have their best seasons 7-9 years in.

And now he's about to be a Laker and play WITH Kobe. Makes me sick... ; ]

BALKIS2K12
07-05-2012, 06:40 PM
Lakers will winn the west with nash. If they can trade gasol for deng that would be icing on the cake.

Bruno
07-05-2012, 06:40 PM
I dunno my friend, he averaged 26 a game his last healthy season and that was a solid ~5 points higher than he ever had before. It was his best season, he was clearly still getting better. He even shot 35% from three that year, which was new for him. He rarely took them before, and when he did he missed. Also 80% from the line (which was 50% higher than his previous best). He was starting to put it all together. You have to remember that he was a 4 year college grad so by the age of his injury he was only a 6 year pro. Lots of guys have their best seasons 7-9 years in.

And now he's about to be a Laker and play WITH Kobe. Makes me sick... ; ]
haha, speaking of which. I guess Nash is an example of a player who peaked after 27. it's rare, not impossible.

you think his 2000 campaign was better than his 1997 campaign when he finished 3rd in mvp voting? i think its a close call between those two seasons. he came more into his own as a scorer in 2000, but it seemed like other things had slight drop-offs.

The Lakers should file for social-security. but i love it, all these 90's greats making one last push. i'm not as confident as others that this will get the Lakers over the hill, but it will be better than last year, thats for sure.

Bruno
07-05-2012, 06:41 PM
Lakers will winn the west with nash. If they can trade gasol for deng that would be icing on the cake.

i'd prefer Iggy and Louis Williams in a sign and trade.

popo85
07-05-2012, 06:44 PM
I had his shoes they were Filas rolol

Haha they were really popular back when i was in middle school 96'-98'

bearadonisdna
07-05-2012, 10:48 PM
Grant Hill was a major disappointment.
Even in his prime never got out of the first round.
His team didnt get out of the first round until he was 35.

If i had to compare his game to someone it was a lot like a slightly lesser scoring lebron.

Chronz
07-05-2012, 11:18 PM
Scoring and defense go to Kobe, but let's not forget who the far better rebounder and playmaker was. In his 3rd year when he was first team with Jordan the kid was averaging 9 boards and 7 assists to go along with the 20+ ppg production on 50% from the field. If we're talking all around game, it's an easy decision and that goes to Grant Hill. Kobe was the more explosive scorer and a very marginally better defender (it's funny to me that you don't remember him as an elite defender. Even in college Grant was voted the defensive player of the year). Kobe had quicker feet, but Hill could guard forwards that kobe wouldn't bother with.

Bottom line, it's an argument. Absolutely same tier.
Just about everything you said could hold true for Pippen vs Kobe, with Pippen actually being a superior defender so Im definitely not talking about all-around games tho.

And I disagree with the marginal defender bit, Im not interested in what they did in college, hell Emeka looked like the 2nd coming of Zo in college. Besides Kobe could and did guard forwards. Hill was a good defender but Kobe was much better IMO.

You can compare anyone but Kobe outdid him and when he was on a team as pitiful as Grant's he VASTLY outperformed him.

3ballbomber
07-05-2012, 11:25 PM
Grant Hill was said to be the player to pass on the torch from Jordan. Grant Hill was a beast, a gentlemen and has alot of heart. Injuries took everything away from him but he achieved alot in his early years.

Chronz
07-05-2012, 11:33 PM
haha, speaking of which. I guess Nash is an example of a player who peaked after 27. it's rare, not impossible.

you think his 2000 campaign was better than his 1997 campaign when he finished 3rd in mvp voting? i think its a close call between those two seasons. he came more into his own as a scorer in 2000, but it seemed like other things had slight drop-offs.

The Lakers should file for social-security. but i love it, all these 90's greats making one last push. i'm not as confident as others that this will get the Lakers over the hill, but it will be better than last year, thats for sure.

Yea but in those cases, the player got bupkiss of playing time well into their 20's.

Chronz
07-05-2012, 11:33 PM
Grant Hill was said to be the player to pass on the torch from Jordan. Grant Hill was a beast, a gentlemen and has alot of heart. Injuries took everything away from him but he achieved alot in his early years.

Yea but the media forced that down everyone, remember Baby Jordan from USC?

Losoway
07-05-2012, 11:38 PM
before injuries . they said he was the next jordan

3ballbomber
07-06-2012, 12:41 AM
Yea but the media forced that down everyone, remember Baby Jordan from USC?
that's true.

I was around 14-15 years old watching Grant Hill play. i didn't expect him to be the next Jordan but rather the next face of the NBA. He was just one of those players that had the work ethics, discipline and will to go along with his skill set. Would love to see him win a ring before he finally retires.

SportsNY
07-06-2012, 02:05 AM
Grant Hill...the Ken Griffey Jr. of the NBA.

Tom81
07-06-2012, 04:00 AM
he was superb,

rhymeratic
07-06-2012, 08:40 AM
Lol there were soo many "NEXT MJ's"

In Hill's case it was not about his game but his squeaky clean image and marketing. On the court this dude was at best top 20. He had inflated numbers in Detroit because of how horrendous their roster was.

Remember, he barely got a chance to play with Allan Houston and Lindsey Hunter was his PG and on top of all that I think if memory serves me right Otis Thorpe and Eric Montross were the starting PF/C. That's a horrendous lineup, of COURSE you're gonna put up 20 - 8 - 6 if you got the rock in your hands all the time.

Sportfan
07-06-2012, 08:57 AM
Grant was the perfect guy to be the poster boy of the NBA too. So much class

JerseyPalahniuk
07-06-2012, 11:00 AM
Grant Hill...the Ken Griffey Jr. of the NBA.

Wow, a perfect comparison. Both of them would reshaped their entire sports without injuries.

CavsYanksDuke
07-06-2012, 02:21 PM
Ken Griffey Jr. sounds like a great comparison. Grant Hill IS my MJ, except with double the NCAA championships and 10000x the class and dignity Jordan ever had. I like great basketball players that happen to be nice people and Grant Hill exemplifies both of those.