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Clippersfan86
07-01-2012, 11:23 PM
http://www.hoopsworld.com/clippers-in-advanced-talks-with-crawford

Not sure I get it unless they feel they are going to lose Nick Young. Clippers are close to an agreement with Chauncey Billups for a 1 year extension as well.

Chronz
07-01-2012, 11:31 PM
Mle?

Avenged
07-01-2012, 11:32 PM
How do the Clippers have all this money for all these players. Damn. They're going to be fun to watch with another year together, and hopefully for them Lamar is able to play like he did with L.A.

Clippersfan86
07-01-2012, 11:33 PM
Yes MLE. They better not bring back Foye or Young if they do Billups/Crawford. 2 SG's tops is what we should have... then Leslie can be 3rd stringer with Bledsoe being able to slide over to the 2.

Clippersfan86
07-01-2012, 11:35 PM
How do the Clippers have all this money for all these players. Damn. They're going to be fun to watch with another year together, and hopefully for them Lamar is able to play like he did with L.A.

They have full MLE of 5 mill and a BAE worth 2 mill a year (bi annual exception). So basically they can get two decent players. That doesn't even include the fact that if they resign Young and or Billups that doesn't count against MLE or BAE.

Chronz
07-01-2012, 11:46 PM
I like Young, insurance in case Crawford slips. On the year Young wasnt that good but he seems to be on the cusp of finally becoming a solid contributor.

Clippersfan86
07-01-2012, 11:49 PM
I like Young, insurance in case Crawford slips. On the year Young wasnt that good but he seems to be on the cusp of finally becoming a solid contributor.

I'm down for rotation of Billups/Crawford/Young now that I give it more thought. Young can actually back up the 3 and did a bunch this year. He guarded Gay, Durant, Melo pretty damn well.

Ashby
07-01-2012, 11:58 PM
I'm not much of a Clippers fan, but I'll probably find myself watching more of their games than I'd want. They are somewhat quietly building a great team that will be fun to watch. Almost reminds me of D Morey getting all these good players for the Rockets from trades...except the Clippers are doing it with MUCH better players through both trades and FA. I'm hoping the Lakers FO makes a great move this summer so we can compete against the Clippers...

apet8945
07-02-2012, 12:31 AM
I'm down for rotation of Billups/Crawford/Young now that I give it more thought. Young can actually back up the 3 and did a bunch this year. He guarded Gay, Durant, Melo pretty damn well.

We should sign a trio of SG's regardless of who they are if Billups is going to be one of them. Billups probably won't play until mid-season so we'll need someone to take his place, whether that's Crawford, Young, Foye or whoever. Since Young has the ability to play SG/SF, he's a perfect candidate and should definitely be brought back. The Clippers should be looking into getting Billups first, and then Young before talking to other players.

And also, our guards tend to get injured quite often, so I think we should definitely have 5 capable guards on the roster instead of just 4. Not to mention Vinny's infatuation with the 3 guard lineup.

Chronz
07-02-2012, 12:34 AM
I just looked up Crawfords stats, not impressed at all. 2 years of regression makes me worry.

Clippersfan86
07-02-2012, 12:37 AM
I just looked up Crawfords stats, not impressed at all. 2 years of regression makes me worry.

In his defense he's been poorly used. Playing next to two superstars will open up the floor A LOT for him. Dude is a deadly scorer... capable of scoring 50 (has more than once).

kylem4711
07-02-2012, 12:39 AM
I like Young, insurance in case Crawford slips. On the year Young wasnt that good but he seems to be on the cusp of finally becoming a solid contributor.

I like young too. He could also backup caron.

shep33
07-02-2012, 12:40 AM
Kinda don't get why the Clips go after these undersized 2 guards. Foye, Billups, Mo at times, and now Crawford.

kylem4711
07-02-2012, 12:41 AM
In his defense he's been poorly used. Playing next to two superstars will open up the floor A LOT for him. Dude is a deadly scorer... capable of scoring 50 (has more than once).

2 years ago i would have agreed with you. Now though, i'm not too sure. Of course i want to sign him, i'm just not going to expect the world out of him.

kylem4711
07-02-2012, 12:43 AM
Kinda don't get why the Clips go after these undersized 2 guards. Foye, Billups, Mo at times, and now Crawford.

isn't he 6'5?

Clippersfan86
07-02-2012, 12:46 AM
isn't he 6'5?

Yes.

Chronz
07-02-2012, 12:46 AM
In his defense he's been poorly used. Playing next to two superstars will open up the floor A LOT for him. Dude is a deadly scorer... capable of scoring 50 (has more than once).
Uhh, him being used properly means feeding him tons of Isolations and surrounding him with shooters, thats what he had going in Atlanta when he had his best year, the very next year with the same teammates he declined sharply and the only difference was that they went away from Isolation basketball and tried to play more within a team construct, that doesnt really give me faith that the guy is better off playing off of others. Last year I dont know what situation he was in, seemed like he had to play more PG than he would like.

I dont like terms like deadly scorer or capable of scoring 50. When you have Blake/CP3 what you want from the supporting cast is consistency and efficiency. I dont know, I hope Im wrong if we get him but Im getting that Caron Butler feeling all over again.

shep33
07-02-2012, 12:49 AM
isn't he 6'5?

You know what? Your right he is listed as 6'5. That's surprising he looks a lot smaller then 6'5 and 200lbs

My bad

Clippersfan86
07-02-2012, 12:49 AM
Uhh, him being used properly means feeding him tons of Isolations and surrounding him with shooters, thats what he had going in Atlanta when he had his best year, the very next year with the same teammates he declined sharply and the only difference was that they went away from Isolation basketball and tried to play more within a team construct, that doesnt really give me faith that the guy is better off playing off of others. Last year I dont know what situation he was in, seemed like he had to play more PG than he would like.

I dont like terms like deadly scorer or capable of scoring 50. When you have Blake/CP3 what you want from the supporting cast is consistency and efficiency. I dont know, I hope Im wrong if we get him but Im getting that Caron Butler feeling all over again.

He's not ideal but in my eyes it's between him and Allen. Ray Allen while being better is 37 years old (5 years older). Mayo, Lee etc aren't coming here. I think Crawford will feast on all the open shots. People said Young was going to be a me first, selfish player and I saw the opposite. I saw a guy constantly getting told by coaches and teammates to shoot MORE not Less.

I think almost any player can fit in here with CP3 being such a vocal and dominant leader. I think Crawford will fall into line like everybody else did last year. Butler gets trigger happy but you have to remember the team was pushing him to shoot more. Only about maybe 5 games last season did I feel he was hurting us with his forced shots. Usually it was good looks that he just didn't knock down.

b@llhog24
07-02-2012, 12:53 AM
isn't he 6'5?

Yea but he defends like a *****.


Uhh, him being used properly means feeding him tons of Isolations and surrounding him with shooters, thats what he had going in Atlanta when he had his best year, the very next year with the same teammates he declined sharply and the only difference was that they went away from Isolation basketball and tried to play more within a team construct, that doesnt really give me faith that the guy is better off playing off of others. Last year I dont know what situation he was in, seemed like he had to play more PG than he would like.

I dont like terms like deadly scorer or capable of scoring 50. When you have Blake/CP3 what you want from the supporting cast is consistency and efficiency. I dont know, I hope Im wrong if we get him but Im getting that Caron Butler feeling all over again.

You'd be right, he's the ultimate run killer.

Clippersfan86
07-02-2012, 12:56 AM
You guys have a short memory. This is the same guy who dropped like 25 on the Clippers in the 4th 2 or 3 years ago, outscoring the entire Clippers team and leading the Hawks back from a double digit deficit. I was SO enraged watching that game. Ultimate Clippers killer over the years. Before the Gary Neil era.

Chronz
07-02-2012, 01:03 AM
He's not ideal but in my eyes it's between him and Allen. Ray Allen while being better is 37 years old (5 years older). Mayo, Lee etc aren't coming here. I think Crawford will feast on all the open shots. People said Young was going to be a me first, selfish player and I saw the opposite. I saw a guy constantly getting told by coaches and teammates to shoot MORE not Less.
Well people are dumb, they think a player who looks to score is automatically selfish but thats just his game. Hes not a creator and there is nothing wrong with being 1 dimensional, the key is being really good at that one dimension and what worried me with Young was that in the regular season his diminished load didnt lead to greater efficiency, somehow his turnover rate climbed. He had a GREAT playoff stretch so maybe he turned it around but even then he did most of his damage when CP3 was on the bench. Could just be random noise tho. All I know is I like his swag, its confidence without disgraceful arrogance, and he seemed to get better. I can only hope the playoffs were more of an indication of what he can do for us once hes acclimated.


I think almost any player can fit in here with CP3 being such a vocal and dominant leader. I think Crawford will fall into line like everybody else did last year. Butler gets trigger happy but you have to remember the team was pushing him to shoot more. Only about maybe 5 games last season did I feel he was hurting us with his forced shots. Usually it was good looks that he just didn't knock down.
I dont see the relevance, even with us pushing him to shoot more he still got less touches than he has throughout his career and it still led to inefficient results. He hurts us with every missed shot, turnover. With a usage and efficiency like his that was pretty often. Even if you think he didnt hurt us, the point will remain he didnt help us in comparison to the league average SF.

shep33
07-02-2012, 01:04 AM
You guys have a short memory. This is the same guy who dropped like 25 on the Clippers in the 4th 2 or 3 years ago, outscoring the entire Clippers team and leading the Hawks back from a double digit deficit. I was SO enraged watching that game. Ultimate Clippers killer over the years. Before the Gary Neil era.

No offense, but the Clippers 2-3 years ago were irrelevant. Also, go back 2-3 years ago and Kobe scored 61 at the Garden, and Amare was arguably the best PF in the NBA (offensively at least).

Remember now, Crawford is 32 years old now and over the past 5 years his scoring has regressed each year. Over the past 3 years his 3p% has dipped significantly as well.

Beantownsboss
07-02-2012, 01:04 AM
Let us take billups

Chronz
07-02-2012, 01:05 AM
I like young too. He could also backup caron.

The word Im hoping for is replace. Ill take the defensive slippage if he can play as well as he did in the playoffs. But if the trend of him playing better without CP3 continues (and Caron playing worse without him) then I can see the argument for keeping him on the bench.

Chronz
07-02-2012, 01:08 AM
You guys have a short memory. This is the same guy who dropped like 25 on the Clippers in the 4th 2 or 3 years ago, outscoring the entire Clippers team and leading the Hawks back from a double digit deficit. I was SO enraged watching that game. Ultimate Clippers killer over the years. Before the Gary Neil era.

Why would I focus on 1 game but ignore an entire seasons worth? That would be like me focusing on Derrick Williams and Beasley going nuts on us but ignoring the fact that it was their best performance of the year. Players have ups and downs all the time, what matters is the consistency and their average level of play.

Clippersfan86
07-02-2012, 01:09 AM
Chronz...let's just see what happens. I try to never form set in stone opinions of new Clippers until I see them. Regardless he's a big upgrade over Foye even with this decline you mention. Billups may or may not ever be the same player so he's insurance.

Chronz
07-02-2012, 01:11 AM
Thats what happens when your relegated to the MLE (thanks Caron), your not able to offer the sure things big money and your left hoping the vets you can sign are still capable and the flawed youngsters finally come around.

Clippersfan86
07-02-2012, 01:11 AM
Why would I focus on 1 game but ignore an entire seasons worth? That would be like me focusing on Derrick Williams and Beasley going nuts on us but ignoring the fact that it was their best performance of the year. Players have ups and downs all the time, what matters is the consistency and their average level of play.

And what we know is that he's been one of the best ballhandlers/shot creators in the NBA since he was a rookie. Dude can get his shot up anytime, over anybody. That's a HUGE asset to have when he can also get hot and drop 40 no problem. I agree 1 game or a few games isn't a big deal but the point is... he's VERY capable as a scorer and a big upgrade to Foye no matter what. Obviously a bit less efficient but doesn't disappear as badly as Foye.

With Foye it's like he will give you a few good games in a row.. then completely DISAPPEAR for 10 games. Not the ideal piece we need but a stop gap until next summer when more wings will hopefully be available. Then Chauncey will leave and we can find a new starting SG and use Crawford as backup.

meloman1592
07-02-2012, 01:18 AM
cp3 and crawford will set the record for most ankles broken by a back court duo in league history

kylem4711
07-02-2012, 01:25 AM
The word Im hoping for is replace. Ill take the defensive slippage if he can play as well as he did in the playoffs. But if the trend of him playing better without CP3 continues (and Caron playing worse without him) then I can see the argument for keeping him on the bench.

yeah, maybe in a couple years :(

looks like we are stuck with caron for a while. sucks but o well. atleast he is a good locker room guy

Chronz
07-02-2012, 01:44 AM
And what we know is that he's been one of the best ballhandlers/shot creators in the NBA since he was a rookie.
I like me some hyperbole but man thats taking it abit far.


Dude can get his shot up anytime, over anybody. That's a HUGE asset to have when he can also get hot and drop 40 no problem.

His ability to create a shot isnt what Im questioning, just if he can start making them again at a decent rate. Efficiency/Consistency is what matters from a supporting cast. So his skill is only an asset if he can make the shot.


I agree 1 game or a few games isn't a big deal but the point is... he's VERY capable as a scorer and a big upgrade to Foye no matter what. Obviously a bit less efficient but doesn't disappear as badly as Foye.

Seems like hes a streaky scorer more than a capable scorer. Him being an upgrade on Foye isnt a selling point, what we are offering him is what I would care about. Like Caron Butler was clearly an upgrade on anything we had and was prolly the best or 2nd best SF on the FA market, but if it were up to me I would have passed on the deal we gave him.


With Foye it's like he will give you a few good games in a row.. then completely DISAPPEAR for 10 games. Not the ideal piece we need but a stop gap until next summer when more wings will hopefully be available. Then Chauncey will leave and we can find a new starting SG and use Crawford as backup.
Well I dont think we will be able to find them in FA with Caron still on our cap and now JC among others because we have to extend Blake+CP3. This is why Caron was such a horrible decision (and Gomes before him), our window is closing, any upgrade we will be able to make will have to come through the draft/trades because our cap space will be tied into our stars and flawed players. We may have to trade Bledsoe just because it may be too expensive to keep him.

Cracka2HI!
07-02-2012, 02:22 AM
It's not a bad signing. He essentially replaces Mo. I'm not thrilled with it. If that's the whole MLE they don't really have much chance to improve other area's of the team. However with Bledsoe being the full time back up PG it makes sense to have a ball dominant guard go along with him off the bench. I really hope this doesn't mean Young is gone, but I think the Clippers can still sign Young and Bullups. They still need another big. I'd settle for Reggie Evans back but would rather see a 7 footer and Reggie. Gotta have depth too.

Clippersfan86
07-02-2012, 03:35 AM
Chronz I agree Butler wasn't ideal but the alternative was Gomes and you saw that experiment already. Prince re-signed with Detroit right away and Battier didn't want to come here so he was pretty much a consolation prize the same way Crawford will be. I'd rather us settle for not ideal players than not improve or add talent at all honestly. Just means front office needs to be diligent replacing these stop gap players going forward.

Butler brought a lot of leadership and toughness so I can't hate on him. First two months of season he looked like a superb signing but then his knee started to bug him and lack of conditioning from sitting out so much of previous year. Condensed season was much harder on older players obviously.

Sactown
07-02-2012, 07:26 AM
Lets take all the chuckers who play SG and stick them on the clippers

Chronz
07-02-2012, 09:03 AM
Chronz I agree Butler wasn't ideal but the alternative was Gomes and you saw that experiment already. Prince re-signed with Detroit right away and Battier didn't want to come here so he was pretty much a consolation prize the same way Crawford will be. I'd rather us settle for not ideal players than not improve or add talent at all honestly. Just means front office needs to be diligent replacing these stop gap players going forward.

Butler brought a lot of leadership and toughness so I can't hate on him. First two months of season he looked like a superb signing but then his knee started to bug him and lack of conditioning from sitting out so much of previous year. Condensed season was much harder on older players obviously.
Not ideal? LOL thats an understatement if Ive ever heard one, he was an absolute disaster and his presence is a reason we arent major players in this years FA. Butler bringing intangibles doesnt impress me as much as a player bringing production. He doesnt, in fact he produces at a rate WELL BENEATH his salary that taking a flier on a minimum salary guy like Mo Evans, Vince, Tmac, Pietrus etc... wouldnt have changed much of our teams destiny but it sure would have saved us a **** load of money. I honestly cant see how you dont recognize what an awful decision that was. You can make excuses for his injuries, and who knows maybe he will play better next year but THIS YEAR made him a bad decision already. When you sign for an injury prone player whos coming off a serious injury and was already on the decline, you cant act all surprised that the guy gets hurt and doesnt produce.

The alternative wasnt Gomes, you could have found a 1 year stopgap that preserves salary cap space for better deals. But to each his own, settling for Caron Butler is why we arent players in this years FA.

Cracka2HI!
07-02-2012, 07:19 PM
Luckily there is no news on this today. I hope the Clippers pass. I won't be upset if they sign him but the more I think about this signing the more I don't like it. They have to find a creative way to bring in a 7 footer and deal with Nick Young before turning to Crawford. He should be 3rd or 4th priority and I have a feeling he may not get the money he wants...

Kashmir13579
07-02-2012, 07:23 PM
I love this move for Jamal and The Clippers. Go get that ring Craw you deserve it. CP3 will get you there.

Kashmir13579
07-02-2012, 07:26 PM
I like me some hyperbole but man thats taking it abit far.




Poor man's Kobe. J-Craw has always been underrated as a player, but he's only been in a few situations where he's been able to produce like he should.

Cracka2HI!
07-02-2012, 07:32 PM
Poor man's Kobe. J-Craw has always been underrated as a player, but he's only been in a few situations where he's been able to produce like he should.

I agree with this, but it looks like he's on the decline...

Kashmir13579
07-02-2012, 07:38 PM
I agree with this, but it looks like he's on the decline...

A gradual physical decline and playing next to a premier playmaking PG worked out well for Paul Pierce, didn't it?

Clippersfan86
07-02-2012, 11:38 PM
Clippers are the clear frontrunners and most teams have pulled back because they think it's a done deal. Crawford meeting with the Clippers tomorrow morning where they are going to offer him a 3 year, MLE deal. The Clippers are also going to offer Ryan Hollins the 1.9 million dollar bi annual exception which isn't a bad option for the 4th big. Billups to get an offer sheet of 4 million for 1 year.

Cracka2HI!
07-02-2012, 11:39 PM
Don't get me wrong, they could do worse than Crawford. I would hope for the best if they get him. However it wasn't a gradual reduction. His numbers fell off bit time last season. I know there was more too it than loss of speed/quickness, but it's still a red flag. I'd hate to see a 3 or 4 year deal. I'm OK with a 2 year deal for the MLE, but I'd really like to see the Clippers add someone else. Someone younger. Everyone but Blake, CP3 and DJ are pretty old. Need some young legs.

Clippersfan86
07-02-2012, 11:39 PM
A gradual physical decline and playing next to a premier playmaking PG worked out well for Paul Pierce, didn't it?

Agree. People are being way too harsh. Advanced stats for Young and Billups are sh** too but they both were a big part of what we did last year. Reality is none of the Clippers guards outside of CP3 are efficient yet they had the most productive and deepest backcourt in the NBA last year.

Clippersfan86
07-02-2012, 11:40 PM
Don't get me wrong, they could do worse than Crawford. I would hope for the best if they get him. However it wasn't a gradual reduction. His numbers fell off bit time last season. I know there was more too it than loss of speed/quickness, but it's still a red flag. I'd hate to see a 3 or 4 year deal. I'm OK with a 2 year deal for the MLE, but I'd really like to see the Clippers add someone else. Someone younger. Everyone but Blake, CP3 and DJ are pretty old. Need some young legs.

Had A LOT to do with Portland using him very poorly and a reduced role. BTW stop leaving out Bledsoe. Dude is a big part of our future whether it be as a 6th man or trading chip and he's only 21. His upside is greater than anybody on the team outside of Griffin.

Chronz
07-02-2012, 11:54 PM
I agree with this, but it looks like he's on the decline...

A gradual physical decline and playing next to a premier playmaking PG worked out well for Paul Pierce, didn't it?
What makes you think it did?

Chronz
07-02-2012, 11:56 PM
I like me some hyperbole but man thats taking it abit far.




Poor man's Kobe. J-Craw has always been underrated as a player, but he's only been in a few situations where he's been able to produce like he should.
Poor mans Kobe? You can go alot lower than that, to me a poor mans Kobe is someone like Joe Johnson. Crawford is like a rich mans Flip Murray or poor mans JJ.

Chronz
07-02-2012, 11:58 PM
A gradual physical decline and playing next to a premier playmaking PG worked out well for Paul Pierce, didn't it?

Agree. People are being way too harsh. Advanced stats for Young and Billups are sh** too but they both were a big part of what we did last year. Reality is none of the Clippers guards outside of CP3 are efficient yet they had the most productive and deepest backcourt in the NBA last year.
this makes it seem like you dint know how to measure efficiency.

Clippersfan86
07-03-2012, 12:06 AM
this makes it seem like you dint know how to measure efficiency.

You seem big on a specific efficiency stat but good free throw shooting doesn't offset a HORRENDOUS field goal percentage by Billups/Young and Foye. Bottom line is they are all inefficient guards. All are very streaky scorers. Crawford is the most explosive scorer of the bunch.

Clippersfan86
07-03-2012, 12:14 AM
Not trying to say Crawford is ideal but we don't know the behind the scenes. Maybe Crawford really sold himself to the Clippers and promised to buy in? Only reason I would think they so aggressively want him on the team.

Cracka2HI!
07-03-2012, 12:32 AM
I have to agree with Chronz. Lost too many debates to count. I think I won one here and there, but he could prove me wrong LOL. I don't think stats are everything, however I'd love to see us build a team of all 15 + PER players. It would be really easy to do and I'm not sure if anyone has tried it.

It doesn't mean Crawford won't be a good fit, it means there is a better fit. Especially when you consider salary. Where Chronz and I completely disagree is a player like Caron. I know he's overpaid, but I think he does add something to the team with his toughness and leadership. The signing also made the Clipps that much more of a destination as a team that now has overpaid. I do think there is more to the game than stats but Chronz could prove me wrong LOL!

Chronz
07-03-2012, 01:42 AM
You seem big on a specific efficiency stat but good free throw shooting doesn't offset a HORRENDOUS field goal percentage by Billups/Young and Foye.
Says who? You, no thanks, Ill take the opinion of actual statisticians and GM's who have done the research. FG% is the worst barometer of efficiency, Billups has been the 2nd most efficient PG of his generation, behind only Nash. Hes not the same but even last year his eFG%, TS%, PPP, and most importantly his Off.RTG were all well above average. His offensive influence in terms of spacing is still elite as represented by his ORAPM among other stats.

Dont know why your mentioning Foye, as if being a better offensive player than him is some sort of accomplishment. Young was horrible during the regular season but like I said, I hope his playoff showing was an indication of newfound acclimation. Hey that rhymes anyways I wont argue against him being better than Young, but Young is younger and he seems like a better prospect at this point. Could be wrong, but where I know your wrong is when you label Chauncey inefficient.



Bottom line is they are all inefficient guards.
Bottom line, your wrong.


All are very streaky scorers. Crawford is the most explosive scorer of the bunch.
Still wouldnt make him the better offensive player.

Clippersfan86
07-03-2012, 02:26 AM
Deleted

Clippersfan86
07-03-2012, 02:28 AM
Deleted.

Clippersfan86
07-03-2012, 02:32 AM
I have to agree with Chronz. Lost too many debates to count. I think I won one here and there, but he could prove me wrong LOL. I don't think stats are everything, however I'd love to see us build a team of all 15 + PER players. It would be really easy to do and I'm not sure if anyone has tried it.

It doesn't mean Crawford won't be a good fit, it means there is a better fit. Especially when you consider salary. Where Chronz and I completely disagree is a player like Caron. I know he's overpaid, but I think he does add something to the team with his toughness and leadership. The signing also made the Clipps that much more of a destination as a team that now has overpaid. I do think there is more to the game than stats but Chronz could prove me wrong LOL!

So then none of us disagree. I've said only 50 times today that Crawford IS NOT the best fit. It's a matter of what is available and you go from there. If Lee/Rush expressed interest in the Clippers and their teams wouldn't match their contracts I have zero doubt the Clippers would target them first. I'm with you on Caron. Butler is overpaid by 2-3 mill a year but it's not accurate to portray it like he's breaking our back. If anything that title should go to DeAndre Jordan.

There is plenty more to the game than stats.

DoMeFavors
07-03-2012, 02:32 AM
Good pickup if he goes there

Clippersfan86
07-03-2012, 02:51 AM
I deleted my posts after doing more research. Didn't realize how far Jamal declined from an offensive efficiency standpoint last 2 years. Still stand by the idea that as a back up SG IF the ones we mentioned aren't available he can be a nice get. Also still feel with CP3+Griffin he may have a nice bounceback year efficiency wise. Again though I didn't realize how steep the decline of Jamal was. His Efg% and TS% literally dropped 5 percent which is HUGE.

Chronz I also didn't realize Billups ORTG was that high over the last decade. It's even higher than CP3.

Chronz
07-03-2012, 03:09 AM
I have to agree with Chronz. Lost too many debates to count. I think I won one here and there, but he could prove me wrong LOL. I don't think stats are everything, however I'd love to see us build a team of all 15 + PER players. It would be really easy to do and I'm not sure if anyone has tried it.
Doesnt work that way, you cant just add up players like that but on average it wouldnt be a bad way to go provided you atleast consider fit/zone usage.


It doesn't mean Crawford won't be a good fit, it means there is a better fit. Especially when you consider salary. Where Chronz and I completely disagree is a player like Caron. I know he's overpaid, but I think he does add something to the team with his toughness and leadership.
What he adds is easily replaceable with minimal level players. When Dallas lost him I told everyone they wouldnt miss him one bit, they went on to win the title. What your experiencing is hometown bias, you hear CP3 and the gang talk highly of him but they would be doing so for lots of players, including Reggie Evans who prolly wont be back next year. Butler being tough doesnt outweigh his lack of production, I would rather have a soft Gasol or whatever Batum is described as being, etc... than someones whos tough but cant produce.


The signing also made the Clipps that much more of a destination as a team that now has overpaid.
Actually it made us LESS of a destination because we CANT offer good money. We are left to sticking with MLE type players and guys who CP3/Blake can convince to come cheaply.



I do think there is more to the game than stats but Chronz could prove me wrong LOL!
The problem with this way of thinking is that your assuming Butler is the only guy who brings intangibles. LOTS of players bring more than just what they provide statistically, and many of them provide less than stats show. When I speak of Butler its with the opinion that despite his intangibles, he is still a net negative player and his presence prevents us from finding players who not only provide all the little things that help teams win, but they can provide the BIG THINGS that help teams contend. So plz, whenever you see me trash a player, do not blindly assume its because of his stats alone, its because hes costing us a chance at a superior player and because hes not worth the investment, AT ALL.

Clippersfan86
07-03-2012, 03:12 AM
I do agree with the hometown bias thing. I do think when CP3 speaks of players being really good or w/e it affects my opinion a bit.

Clippersfan86
07-03-2012, 03:17 AM
Chronz so I get that Crawford isn't ideal (or flat out bad you said) but you don't think if Billups can return to form and start and Crawford backs him up that it's acceptable? I was thinking that's still a solid SG rotation, especially if we can keep Young too.

KingPosey
07-03-2012, 03:31 AM
great player off the bench. He can destroy teams at times, and he has higher IQ than JR.

Chronz
07-03-2012, 03:31 AM
Well because of Caron we dont have much of a choice, its pointless not to at least try him out because our cap window is gone, once Blake and CP3 extend, Free Agency will never be our main source of adding talent again, well unless its a vet who is willing to take a massive paycut. Its why we gotta bring back Young too. So long as they dont become albatrosses like Butler, they will have some kind of trade value.

Clippersfan86
07-03-2012, 03:39 AM
Well because of Caron we dont have much of a choice, its pointless not to at least try him out because our cap window is gone, once Blake and CP3 extend, Free Agency will never be our main source of adding talent again, well unless its a vet who is willing to take a massive paycut. Its why we gotta bring back Young too. So long as they dont become albatrosses like Butler, they will have some kind of trade value.

Only bad news is somebody earlier said Young wants more than the 4.3 mill max Clippers can offer :(. Which would suck if true because he implied he would take a pay cut to stay and that's a very fair offer in my eyes for him.

BTW I just found out Hollins isn't getting BAE, Clippers are offering Hollins the minimum. Which is a small good news.

So I understand you hate idea of Crawford but do you think this roster can contend in your opinion?

CP3/Bledsoe
Billups/Crawford
Butler/Young
Griffin/Odom/Thompkins
DJ/Hollins

Clippersfan86
07-03-2012, 03:40 AM
This is a breakdown from today but it ends up with us losing Young ;(

http://www.clipsnation.com/2012/7/2/3134140/clippers-free-agancy-some-numbers-emerge-chauncey-billups-jamal-crawford-ryan-hollins

Method28
07-03-2012, 04:42 AM
Crawford for 3 years?! Hell no! Im down for a one year trial but for three years...screw that

Kashmir13579
07-03-2012, 02:40 PM
What makes you think it did?
Not that Pierce was ever a glarringly innefficient scorer, but his TS% has been the best its ever been since 2008. (sans this season where a lot of players saw a huge dip in efficiency/production)

Its pretty simple when the ball is out of your hands and in the hands of a Rondo or Chris Paul. You have better shot selection by default.

Look at Pierce's USG rates before and after 2007. I'd expect to see the same thing from Crawford if he signs with the Clips.


Poor mans Kobe? You can go alot lower than that, to me a poor mans Kobe is someone like Joe Johnson. Crawford is like a rich mans Flip Murray or poor mans JJ.
How much better do you think Joe Johnson really is? They have both underacheived in their careers for the tools they possess. Joe Johnson might have better peak years but factoring in price of admission i'm willing to go out on a limb and say i'd rather have Craw on my team than JJ.

Anyway, when i said poor man's kobe i was reffering more to shot selection and skill-set than the numbers really.

Chronz
07-03-2012, 10:02 PM
Not that Pierce was ever a glarringly innefficient scorer, but his TS% has been the best its ever been since 2008. (sans this season where a lot of players saw a huge dip in efficiency/production)
Your prolly right but how do you know that was a result of Rondo and not just a lower usage brought forth by the addition of the other 2 HOFers and thus a lower burden? I guess we could say it was a result of both but I think it had mostly to do with the fact that he wasnt carrying an offense by himself anymore. Crawford doesnt strike me as a Paul Pierce type player who can make the switch to that extent.



Its pretty simple when the ball is out of your hands and in the hands of a Rondo or Chris Paul. You have better shot selection by default.
That didnt seem to help Caron Butler or Nick Young. Thats why its too simplistic, interactions between players are more intricate than that. I have always said no player transforms another but he does play a role, just as usage plays a role. You would hope a lower usage and playing alongside a great PG would do the trick, but it doesnt always work that way. See Trevor Ariza playing alongside CP3.



Look at Pierce's USG rates before and after 2007. I'd expect to see the same thing from Crawford if he signs with the Clips.

Well yea, Im pretty sure he will get benched if he tries to hog the ball to that extent. The question is if he can make the switch in usage for efficiency and will it be significant enough to make him a weapon offensively. Considering his efficiency dropping the year his usage dropped on top of it in Atlanta, Im very weary. Still I checked out his spot up shooting efficiency and if he gets more open set 3's he could benefit.



How much better do you think Joe Johnson really is? They have both underacheived in their careers for the tools they possess. Joe Johnson might have better peak years but factoring in price of admission i'm willing to go out on a limb and say i'd rather have Craw on my team than JJ.
Maybe but when people compare a players ability they usually dont factor in cost. JJ is closer to being poor mans Kobe in terms of ability and production.


Anyway, when i said poor man's kobe i was reffering more to shot selection and skill-set than the numbers really.
Dont really care about that. But even then I would say JJ is closer to that as he atleast has some sort of post game.

justinnum1
07-03-2012, 10:05 PM
do it! than allen only meets with miami and hopefully signs

Cracka2HI!
07-03-2012, 11:41 PM
Doesnt work that way, you cant just add up players like that but on average it wouldnt be a bad way to go provided you atleast consider fit/zone usage.

I still have so much to learn! That makes a lot of sense.


What he adds is easily replaceable with minimal level players. When Dallas lost him I told everyone they wouldnt miss him one bit, they went on to win the title. What your experiencing is hometown bias, you hear CP3 and the gang talk highly of him but they would be doing so for lots of players, including Reggie Evans who prolly wont be back next year. Butler being tough doesnt outweigh his lack of production, I would rather have a soft Gasol or whatever Batum is described as being, etc... than someones whos tough but cant produce.

I disagree on this a bit because I do think he is respected around the league and I do think the team got a lift from him coming back from a broken hand. I do hear your point about CP3, he seems to love all his teammates! That is a good thing IMO. I see your point about Batum and being able to add guys like Caron with minimum type deals. Hell we did that with KMart and Reggie.


Actually it made us LESS of a destination because we CANT offer good money. We are left to sticking with MLE type players and guys who CP3/Blake can convince to come cheaply.

Ah, I didn't say Free Agent destination. I just meant it more of as a place players will want to go in general. If anything overpaying a solid vet like Butler gives our POS owner a shred more credibility. As for it being a bad contract for this and next year, I couldn't agree more. We could do some damage in free agency now that we are a "destination". I wonder if the team signs Butler knowing they were getting Paul. Butler seemed like a lot more of a fit with Mo/Kaman than CP3...only because we weren't THAT good when we signed Caron, so the cap space wasn't nearly as precious.


The problem with this way of thinking is that your assuming Butler is the only guy who brings intangibles. LOTS of players bring more than just what they provide statistically, and many of them provide less than stats show. When I speak of Butler its with the opinion that despite his intangibles, he is still a net negative player and his presence prevents us from finding players who not only provide all the little things that help teams win, but they can provide the BIG THINGS that help teams contend. So plz, whenever you see me trash a player, do not blindly assume its because of his stats alone, its because hes costing us a chance at a superior player and because hes not worth the investment, AT ALL.Fair Enough.

Cracka2HI!
07-03-2012, 11:44 PM
do it! than allen only meets with miami and hopefully signs

See then there's that...I'll take Allen over Crawford any day. Not sure how I feel about 3 years for either, but for 3 years I think I just can't ignore the actual age of the 2. We are meeting with Allen Friday and he knows we are offering the MLE. If he's coming it's to talk about years not money. If we give him the years he wants I think he's a Clipper. Not sure I'm down for a 3 contract tho.

Method28
07-04-2012, 01:21 AM
Can we please just sign Courtney Lee and forget about Crawford?

kylem4711
07-04-2012, 01:48 AM
Can we please just sign Courtney Lee and forget about Crawford?

in a perfect world, yeah. probably not though

N3TS
07-04-2012, 02:42 AM
He's a solid pick up for them.

Kashmir13579
07-04-2012, 03:18 AM
Your prolly right but how do you know that was a result of Rondo and not just a lower usage brought forth by the addition of the other 2 HOFers and thus a lower burden? I guess we could say it was a result of both but I think it had mostly to do with the fact that he wasnt carrying an offense by himself anymore. Crawford doesnt strike me as a Paul Pierce type player who can make the switch to that extent.

I know he's never been as good as Paul Pierce, but i seem to be one of the few who think Jamal is a high IQ player. We don't know how he will react playing with CP3 - but we don't have to assume it won't work. Its not like he's been in a situation like that before. A lot of the teams Crawford has been on, he's been a creator and primary ball-handler. Thats called circumstance. It isn't like he doesn't know how to get himself open without the ball. He can come off screens with the best of them, and is generally a "right place at the right time" player. He's been a bad shot shooter forever, and made a nice career for himself doing so, but he'll see more open looks in LA than he ever has.

and btw Jamal is theoretically going to play with 2 HOFers as well. If all goes well.




That didnt seem to help Caron Butler or Nick Young. Thats why its too simplistic, interactions between players are more intricate than that. I have always said no player transforms another but he does play a role, just as usage plays a role. You would hope a lower usage and playing alongside a great PG would do the trick, but it doesnt always work that way. See Trevor Ariza playing alongside CP3.
Nick Young? LMFAO. Was it supposed to work for Nick Young? I will be surprised if that specimen finds his niche in the next 3-4 years. I don't know what the deal was with Caron Butler. Is he that washed up? Too many touches? I honestly don't know.


Well yea, Im pretty sure he will get benched if he tries to hog the ball to that extent. The question is if he can make the switch in usage for efficiency and will it be significant enough to make him a weapon offensively. Considering his efficiency dropping the year his usage dropped on top of it in Atlanta, Im very weary. Still I checked out his spot up shooting efficiency and if he gets more open set 3's he could benefit.
He's obviously going to benefit with more open threes. When his feet are set he's deadly.

Are you talking about last year in Atlanta? Its wasn't so much his USG rate that dropped, as it was a spike in his USG the previous year. Take 05-06 Knicks Crawford for example. Thats what you could hope to be getting with a better TS% and a more experienced, well-rounded player.

He was flukishly good when he won 6th man in Atlanta and we'll never see that kind of a season twice with him. Increased usage and career high in ORtg.. Man was he on fire that year. For the record, i do understand why that trend alarms you but that isn't the Crawford you will be getting next year. He wants to win and i think he'll find his role and make it work.


Maybe but when people compare a players ability they usually dont factor in cost. JJ is closer to being poor mans Kobe in terms of ability and production.

Dont really care about that. But even then I would say JJ is closer to that as he atleast has some sort of post game.
I stand by my comparison. I see the JJ comparison as well. "Poor Man's" is kinda in the eye of the beholder.

John Walls Era
07-04-2012, 04:11 AM
Crawford use to be pretty nasty.

Kashmir13579
07-04-2012, 04:15 AM
Crawford use to be pretty nasty.

He's come a long way from his days with Chicago.

Chronz
07-04-2012, 04:39 AM
I know he's never been as good as Paul Pierce, but i seem to be one of the few who think Jamal is a high IQ player. We don't know how he will react playing with CP3 - but we don't have to assume it won't work. Its not like he's been in a situation like that before. A lot of the teams Crawford has been on, he's been a creator and primary ball-handler. Thats called circumstance. It isn't like he doesn't know how to get himself open without the ball. He can come off screens with the best of them, and is generally a "right place at the right time" player. He's been a bad shot shooter forever, and made a nice career for himself doing so, but he'll see more open looks in LA than he ever has.
Well I have a question then, how come his play diminished in year 2 with Atlanta? The only difference between his best year and the next was that the team went away from stressing Isolation basketball. From what your saying it would seem like him playing under a team structure would benefit his game. Yet it went south...

And what makes you think he can come off screens with the best of them? I havent seen it be a major part of his game in forever, not like Ray Allen. Hell even Nick Young does it more frequently and more effectively and hes not even that good at it.


Nick Young? LMFAO. Was it supposed to work for Nick Young? I will be surprised if that specimen finds his niche in the next 3-4 years. I don't know what the deal was with Caron Butler. Is he that washed up? Too many touches? I honestly don't know.

Not seeing whats so funny, what exactly are you basing Jamal being the guy whos going to benefit above and beyond the rest of the players in the league? And Caron got less touches, he could be washed up, but so could Jamal.


He's obviously going to benefit with more open threes. When his feet are set he's deadly.

Deadly? Thats abit generous but hes definitely much better.


Are you talking about last year in Atlanta? Its wasn't so much his USG rate that dropped, as it was a spike in his USG the previous year.
So on 1 hand your saying a drop in usage would help him when he joins us but in Atlanta it was the reason he suffered? How does that work?


Take 05-06 Knicks Crawford for example. Thats what you could hope to be getting with a better TS% and a more experienced, well-rounded player.
Im guessing you feel that way because of the career low usage, I would love that guy even if its a far cry from his best days but its a risk I wish we didnt have to take.


I stand by my comparison. I see the JJ comparison as well. "Poor Man's" is kinda in the eye of the beholder.
If you want to focus on shot selection and skill set then certainly, like I said I dont care about stuff like that. Just his game type and production.