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Mile High Champ
06-30-2012, 01:01 PM
Hey guys, Some of you may remember that for the last four years I have conducted a poll at the end of the season that had PSD users vote for the top 10 players at each position. The season is now over and the Heat have been crowned NBA champs which means its time to kick off the off-season player rankings.

A lot has changed since last season. Lebron was labelled by some as Choke Artist in the clutch and now this year had one of the greatest finals performances in recent memory. Let start the discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 4 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best


2012 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings

1) Chris Paul
2) Derrick Rose
3) Russell Westbrook
4) Deron Williams
5) Rajon Rondo
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)




2011 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings

1) Chris Paul
2) Derrick Rose
3) Deron Williams
4) Russell Westbrook
5) Steve Nash
6) Rajon Rondo
7) Tony Parker
8) Jason Kidd
9) Chauncey Billups
10) Stephen Curry

2010 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Deron Williams
2) Chris Paul
3) Steve Nash
4) Rajon Rondo
5) Derrick Rose
6) Chauncey Billups
7) Russel Westbrook
8) Tony Parker
9) Jason Kidd
10) Tyreke Evans

2009 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Chris Paul
2) Deron Williams
3) Chauncey Billups
4) Tony Parker
5) Steve Nash
6) Derrick Rose
7) Devin Harris
8) Rajon Rondo
9) Jose Calderon
10) Jason Kidd

2008 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Chris Paul
2) Steve Nash
3) Deron Williams
4) Baron Davis
5) Tony Parker
6) Jason Kidd
7) Chauncey Billups
8) Gilbert Arenas
9) Jose Calderon
10) Andre Miller

Mile High Champ
06-30-2012, 01:03 PM
At it again. Is this Tony Parker's spot or can someone steal it.

Mile High Champ
06-30-2012, 01:04 PM
Changed my mind, I am going Nash here. I know I took Parker last poll but after reviewing the stats and seeing what Nash was able to do with a terrible Suns team gives him the edge here.

SteBO
06-30-2012, 01:06 PM
Don't see how it isn't Parker here. I've been taking him since #3 :laugh2:

koetravis
06-30-2012, 01:27 PM
Parker should win this easily..

Dade County
06-30-2012, 01:28 PM
parker ....

I hope Norris Cole can make this list one day.

Lucky.
06-30-2012, 01:36 PM
Gonna lean Parker here, but someone could easily make a case for Nash.

nicegoing
06-30-2012, 01:47 PM
Parker easily. And Nash easily for 7.

NYKalltheway
06-30-2012, 01:48 PM
Parker should have been higher

StarvingKnick22
06-30-2012, 01:55 PM
def. Tony Parker

Chronz
06-30-2012, 01:57 PM
I thought this was a no brainer, although I do feel Nash can be the better player, I dont think many will look past his lack of post season appearances. TP in a landslide. Nash should do the same in the next poll.

Avenged
06-30-2012, 02:15 PM
Changed my mind, I am going Nash here. I know I took Parker last poll but after reviewing the stats and seeing what Nash was able to do with a terrible Suns team gives him the edge here.

What was he able to do with a terrible Suns team?

DR_1
06-30-2012, 02:44 PM
Don't see how it isn't Parker here. I've been taking him since #3 :laugh2:

Great minds think alike :cheers:

N3TS
06-30-2012, 03:00 PM
Nash

greg_ory_2005
06-30-2012, 03:40 PM
Obviously Parker should go here.

Corey
06-30-2012, 04:26 PM
Parker should have gone by now, without a doubt.

justinnum1
06-30-2012, 04:38 PM
parker, next...

AntiG
06-30-2012, 05:32 PM
obviously between Parker and Nash, but Andre Miller and Jason Kidd should absolutely be on this list. They easily can be the next guys after them.

b@llhog24
06-30-2012, 06:06 PM
Lol Kidd doesn't deserve to be anywhere near this poll.

Sadds The Gr8
06-30-2012, 06:51 PM
should've just skipped this.

celtNYpatsHeels
06-30-2012, 07:12 PM
woops i voted nash, didnt realize parker was still on the board

Vinny642
06-30-2012, 07:35 PM
Parker here, he is one of the most underrated point guards in the past 5 years

Baller1
06-30-2012, 08:27 PM
Parker
Nash
Kyrie
Lowry
Rubio

That's how the list should end.

justinnum1
06-30-2012, 08:28 PM
Parker
Nash
Kyrie
Lowry
Rubio

That's how the list should end.

i would put lowry ahead of kyrie right now, by irving will be top 5 very soon

b@llhog24
06-30-2012, 09:23 PM
Parker
Nash
Kyrie
Lowry
Rubio

That's how the list should end.

No love for Lawson?

Glen20
06-30-2012, 09:35 PM
still cant believe parker isnt in the top 5
and who keeps voting for Lin?? :p

Glen20
06-30-2012, 09:37 PM
Parker
Nash
Kyrie
Lowry
Rubio

That's how the list should end.

where's Lin?

ManningToTyree
07-01-2012, 01:41 AM
Nash

Chronz
07-01-2012, 01:45 AM
where's Lin?

Obviously where he belong

LakersMaster24
07-01-2012, 01:48 AM
Didnt see that Parker was still available so I voted for Nash :( Can someone change my vote?

jimm120
07-01-2012, 02:09 AM
still cant believe parker isnt in the top 5
and who keeps voting for Lin?? :p

I'm doing it for ***** and giggles, since they didn't add him earlier on. If he would have been added when he was supposed to, I wouldn't be voting for him, but since they added him in so late, I've voted for him.

The winner in these (the top 6-7) are already set in stone. We all knew who the top 7 PG's were. Not the order per say, but who were the top 7.

The predicament lies with the last 3 spots.

Rubio played too little in an already shortened season.

Lowry is somewhat deserving, but to me no.

Lawson is pretty good.

Irving, even if he broke out, I wouldn't vote for him at 8th nor 9th.

Lin is Lin. But being out the final month surely hurt stock.

Curry if he had actually played this year.

so we got quite a few deserving players for the last 3 spots.

IMO, I believe these guys are the final 3 (no specific order):

Lin
Lawson
Irving
Lowry (with a shot)

btw, I think we can expect to have Curry (if not injury plagued) and Rubio (he definitely showed he has the skills!) in next year's top 10.

Glen20
07-01-2012, 02:55 AM
I'm doing it for ***** and giggles, since they didn't add him earlier on. If he would have been added when he was supposed to, I wouldn't be voting for him, but since they added him in so late, I've voted for him.

The winner in these (the top 6-7) are already set in stone. We all knew who the top 7 PG's were. Not the order per say, but who were the top 7.

The predicament lies with the last 3 spots.

Rubio played too little in an already shortened season.

Lowry is somewhat deserving, but to me no.

Lawson is pretty good.

Irving, even if he broke out, I wouldn't vote for him at 8th nor 9th.

Lin is Lin. But being out the final month surely hurt stock.

Curry if he had actually played this year.

so we got quite a few deserving players for the last 3 spots.

IMO, I believe these guys are the final 3 (no specific order):

Lin
Lawson
Irving
Lowry (with a shot)

btw, I think we can expect to have Curry (if not injury plagued) and Rubio (he definitely showed he has the skills!) in next year's top 10.

well now im convinced to vote for him

aussie
07-01-2012, 03:32 AM
I've been taking Parker since #2 which from the playoffs is what he deserves!!

Again DRose should be no more then 3rd...

Glen20
07-01-2012, 03:36 AM
I've been taking Parker since #2 which from the playoffs is what he deserves!!

Again DRose should be no more then 3rd...

same here mate

b@llhog24
07-01-2012, 03:36 AM
I've been taking Parker since #2 which from the playoffs is what he deserves!!

Again DRose should be no more then 3rd...

I like TP as much as the next guy but the playoffs don't exactly strengthen his argument.

Swashcuff
07-01-2012, 11:49 AM
This jimm120 guy just used Lin is Lin as his argument. :laugh2:

What a shame and disgrace to the Lin supporters. That's really the best you could do? Lin has no business in the top 10 and he never deserved to be on the list earlier.

You can't even make a half decent case to support Lin and refuse to reply when anyone challenges your reasons. :pity:

Baller1
07-01-2012, 12:17 PM
i would put lowry ahead of kyrie right now, by irving will be top 5 very soon

Ehhh, even right now I'd still rather have Kyrie on my team than Lowry. Kyrie was incredible this season.


No love for Lawson?

I was soo close to putting him on there as #10, but I just think Rubio is the better PG. Nothing against Ty though.

Avenged
07-01-2012, 12:20 PM
Lin is Lin. lol :)

unleashthebeast
07-01-2012, 12:57 PM
Parker should have won #4.

celtNYpatsHeels
07-01-2012, 01:05 PM
Im sorry but Lin is easily the worst PG on that list

b@llhog24
07-01-2012, 01:11 PM
Ehhh, even right now I'd still rather have Kyrie on my team than Lowry. Kyrie was incredible this season.

Yea I'm not really seeing the case for Lowry either, guess it depends on how much you value his defense.


I was soo close to putting him on there as #10, but I just think Rubio is the better PG. Nothing against Ty though.

I could live with that.

Kashmir13579
07-01-2012, 01:17 PM
Don't see how it isn't Parker here. I've been taking him since #3 :laugh2:

ahahah me too.

Kashmir13579
07-01-2012, 01:19 PM
This jimm120 guy just used Lin is Lin as his argument. :laugh2:

What a shame and disgrace to the Lin supporters. That's really the best you could do? Lin has no business in the top 10 and he never deserved to be on the list earlier.

You can't even make a half decent case to support Lin and refuse to reply when anyone challenges your reasons. :pity:

If the time comes that a case is being made for Rubio, i'll make a case for Lin.

Kashmir13579
07-01-2012, 01:22 PM
For the record, Lin is vastly underrated on the NBA forum, but i understand why. If i was in your guys' shoes (Not a Knick-fan) I would've wanted to shoot someone during the whole "linsanity" thing.

But half of ya'll act like he's a bum and can't play.

Kashmir13579
07-01-2012, 01:29 PM
Mike Conley
John Wall
Jrue Holiday
Curry
Brandon Jennings
Ricky Rubio


Production-wise, a case can be made for Lin over all those guys, imo. Realistically, Curry should get the 10th spot if either Rubio or Lin played enough to get considerations.

rickshaw
07-01-2012, 01:50 PM
Lin is Lin. But being out the final month surely hurt stock.
.

Might be the 25 career starts...

Swashcuff
07-01-2012, 02:33 PM
For the record, Lin is vastly underrated on the NBA forum, but i understand why. If i was in your guys' shoes (Not a Knick-fan) I would've wanted to shoot someone during the whole "linsanity" thing.

But half of ya'll act like he's a bum and can't play.

We usually have the same POV so we seldom disagree but this is one instance in which we would.

IMO 25 starts is wayyyyyyyyy to small of a sample size in a Mike D'Antoni ran offense for me to say that Lin is really that special or game changing.

We all know that Mike D'Antoni's offense is very point guard oriented (as is Byron Scott) and lends to increased production out of his player who is running the offense (just like Darren Collison when he started in his rookie season). Case in point Raymond Felton for most part of the 2010-2011 season. I am not saying that that is the only reason why Lin played as well as he did because I would be a complete fool to do so but it does have a role to play in his play. It does take a good player to play at the level Lin did in his short time as a starter last season so its not to say that he was a bum or anything but he isn't automatically catapulted to being a better player than Kyle Lowry either because of it.

Kyrie, Lowry and Curry are all clearly better than Lin with no real argument there.

When you speak of guys like Conley, Rubio, Holiday, Wall, Jennings etc then there would be a conversation however with the exception of Rubio all these players have proven track records behind them to draw reference from to ascertain whether their play is likely to continue to stay as high as this or not.

Let's see how Lin plays under Mike Woodson's system with Carmelo in the starting line up next season and then more people would be able to accurately assess him.

Kashmir13579
07-01-2012, 04:09 PM
We usually have the same POV so we seldom disagree but this is one instance in which we would.

IMO 25 starts is wayyyyyyyyy to small of a sample size in a Mike D'Antoni ran offense for me to say that Lin is really that special or game changing.

We all know that Mike D'Antoni's offense is very point guard oriented (as is Byron Scott) and lends to increased production out of his player who is running the offense (just like Darren Collison when he started in his rookie season). Case in point Raymond Felton for most part of the 2010-2011 season. I am not saying that that is the only reason why Lin played as well as he did because I would be a complete fool to do so but it does have a role to play in his play. It does take a good player to play at the level Lin did in his short time as a starter last season so its not to say that he was a bum or anything but he isn't automatically catapulted to being a better player than Kyle Lowry either because of it.
Comparing Raymond Felton to Lin, skillset-wise is.. bleh... Lin has a much better feel for the pg position. Even looking at Raymond Felton's stats under D'antoni, i don't know what everyone is talking about. He wasn't that good at all.

At this point basically all i'm talking about is skill-set with Lin, because i completely agree the sample-size is too short to look myself in the mirror and say he produces like a top-10 pg. But having watched every minute he played this year, i can confidently say he has the tools to be a top-10 pg. I don't think its far-fetched.


Kyrie, Lowry and Curry are all clearly better than Lin with no real argument there.

When you speak of guys like Conley, Rubio, Holiday, Wall, Jennings etc then there would be a conversation however with the exception of Rubio all these players have proven track records behind them to draw reference from to ascertain whether their play is likely to continue to stay as high as this or not.

In principle i agree with you, here. But its not like we're talking about guys that have much of a track-record. Maybe a year (or so) more year in the NBA and their scouting report coming out of college. If Lin's production next year looks anything like his 1000 minute of fame, those other player's "track records" will seem abstract in this conversation.


Let's see how Lin plays under Mike Woodson's system with Carmelo in the starting line up next season and then more people would be able to accurately assess him.
The generic Knick fan response would be that Jeremy's efficiency went up and his turnovers went down in this situation. I'm not naive enough to think Carmelo won't hold this kid back. The optimist in me hopes Jeremy Lin's altruistic play on the court and ability to score at will, will rub off on Carmelo in some capacity.


All logic and reasoning aside, (homer goggles on) he'll be a Jason Kidd/Tony Parker hybrid in a few years.



EDIT: Going back to how Raymond Felton wasn't really that good.. Could you imagine what kind of a year Lin would have with Raymond's line-up that season? I can assure you that with a bunch of low-usg jump-shooters, all the spacing in the world, and his only job being run the pick and roll with STAT - it would crush Felton's "career season".

Swashcuff
07-01-2012, 04:35 PM
Comparing Raymond Felton to Lin, skillset-wise is.. bleh... Lin has a much better feel for the pg position. Even looking at Raymond Felton's stats under D'antoni, i don't know what everyone is talking about. He wasn't that good at all.

At 18 and 8 with a 55% TS% after the month of December he played better than he had at any time in his NBA career. So I'd say yeah in terms of production as a member of the Knicks under D'Antoni he saw an increased hike in production to start but then eventually evened out as the season progressed.


At this point basically all i'm talking about is skill-set with Lin, because i completely agree the sample-size is too short to look myself in the mirror and say he produces like a top-10 pg. But having watched every minute he played this year, i can confidently say he has the tools to be a top-10 pg. I don't think its far-fetched.

Skill set looks great but I honestly think if I take everything into consideration for most of the players on the list a solid case can be made that they could be top 10.


In principle i agree with you, here. But its not like we're talking about guys that have much of a track-record. Maybe a year (or so) more year in the NBA and their scouting report coming out of college. If Lin's production next year looks anything like his 1000 minute of fame, those other player's "track records" will seem abstract in this conversation.

Big IF however and of this moment quite honestly its not much more than that,


The generic Knick fan response would be that Jeremy's efficiency went up and his turnovers went down in this situation. I'm not naive enough to think Carmelo won't hold this kid back. The optimist in me hopes Jeremy Lin's altruistic play on the court and ability to score at will, will rub off on Carmelo in some capacity.

I'm not quite as worried with Melo as I am with coach Woodson. I think Melo would find a way to work things out with Stoudemire and Lin but its the changes in the Knicks offense ran by Woodson that may take some getting used to.


All logic and reasoning aside, (homer goggles on) he'll be a Jason Kidd/Tony Parker hybrid in a few years.

Don't see it. I need a bigger sample size before I can accurately make an assumption of what type of player he is or is capable of becoming.


EDIT: Going back to how Raymond Felton wasn't really that good.. Could you imagine what kind of a year Lin would have with Raymond's line-up that season? I can assure you that with a bunch of low-usg jump-shooters, all the spacing in the world, and his only job being run the pick and roll with STAT - it would crush Felton's "career season".

Really I can't. I can't defiantly say that Lin would be X player in X scenario without all the other variables in place. Like I said I still think I need to get a bigger sample size of Lin's play under different circumstances before I can really gauge his true worth.

I mean at the end of Darren Collison's rookie season one may have said something to the effect of could you imagine Collison playing alongside Dwight Howard and all those shooters he can possibly be a top 5 PG in the league. Then he went to Indy and we saw that despite the fact that he seemed to have a great feel for the position, great vision, get to rim and score at will, a steady jumper and superb passing ability etc as a starter in his rookie campaign he really wasn't as good as most would have thought or at least not to this point in his career.

We always have to be careful with these sorts of sample sizes no matter how good the player looks or how much he produces.

ewmania
07-01-2012, 05:41 PM
how was derrick rose over westbrook this year lol

how was deron over rondo... and how was any of them over parker when parker was a MVP canidate ... some people just fall in love with the name I guess

Kashmir13579
07-01-2012, 09:12 PM
At 18 and 8 with a 55% TS% after the month of December he played better than he had at any time in his NBA career. So I'd say yeah in terms of production as a member of the Knicks under D'Antoni he saw an increased hike in production to start but then eventually evened out as the season progressed.

per 36 minutes the spike in his production was marginal. Looking at his advanced stat-line says the same thing.





We always have to be careful with these sorts of sample sizes no matter how good the player looks or how much he produces.

I'm not being careful. He gon' be a star!

b@llhog24
07-01-2012, 09:24 PM
per 36 minutes the spike in his production was marginal. Looking at his advanced stat-line says the same thing.



I'm not being careful. He gon' be a star!

:laugh2: Don't worry bro, I'll be the same way when Kyrie's spot in the rankings become available.

Toastyy
07-01-2012, 09:43 PM
there is no way Nash should have this many votes...

Bruno
07-01-2012, 10:03 PM
reading a lot of Rubio talk. he has zero top ten claim. his advanced line is below average, and he missed 25 games. a vote for rubio at any point in these PG rankings is a vote on assumed future production.

StarvingKnick22
07-02-2012, 08:01 AM
Drose played a little amount of time playing this year and should be like at 4 or 5 for this 2011-12 season

sixers247
07-02-2012, 11:54 AM
Whoops voted Nash but meant Parker, then Nash

Kashmir13579
07-02-2012, 03:08 PM
:laugh2: Don't worry bro, I'll be the same way when Kyrie's spot in the rankings become available. haha you get it. The difference is Kyrie has a legit claim to these next couple spots. After Nash goes ill be voting for Kyrie or Ty.

AntiG
07-02-2012, 04:47 PM
Might be the 25 career starts...

Well Rubio is on this list too... 31 career starts.

b@llhog24
07-02-2012, 05:05 PM
haha you get it. The difference is Kyrie has a legit claim to these next couple spots. After Nash goes ill be voting for Kyrie or Ty.

Lol my biased voting starts in the next poll. :D And I actually like Lin, he's really a humble guy with and amazing back-story and I don't believe that his stretch was indicative of a fluke. But like everyone else has said until he plays some more games at that level I'll have to temper my expectations.

Kashmir13579
07-02-2012, 06:41 PM
Lol my biased voting starts in the next poll. :D And I actually like Lin, he's really a humble guy with and amazing back-story and I don't believe that his stretch was indicative of a fluke. But like everyone else has said until he plays some more games at that level I'll have to temper my expectations.

Ya the thing is, most of the people who are *****ing about the sample-size probably saw his highlights on sportscenter for about a month straight, and 2 or maybe 3 nationally televised games. (one being the bloodbath vs Miami) Then they look at his indisputable all-star numbers during that stretch and say "there is no way this is right"..

As elitist as this sounds, i truly believe the Knicks fans who were there from the start of Linsanity, and didn't take their eyes of him the entire time know a lot better than some people who claim to. The tools he has, he flat-out has. They aren't going anywhere. His elite court-vision and finishing abilities are not going anywhere. and at 23 - to think he won't improve? sheeeeeeit.....

Chronz
07-02-2012, 06:54 PM
Elite court vision? Is that what you call someone who turns the ball over that often with such little assists to show for it?

Kashmir13579
07-02-2012, 07:17 PM
Elite court vision? Is that what you call someone who turns the ball over that often with such little assists to show for it?

Oh, come on, Chronz. For what was basically a rookie starting PG, his turnovers coupled with his USG% aren't that alarming. When 'Melo and crew came back his USG% dropped and thus his turnovers. Does he need improvement in that area? yep. Will he improve? I think so - do you?

For point of reference, while having a higher USG% than both of them, Jeremy's TOV% was actually lower than Rondo, and much lower than Steve. That said, Lin is a gunslinger and i expect him to average a bunch of turnovers throughout his career.

Not to mention he was scoring at a much higher clip than both of those guys.

I don't see anyone questioning Rubio's court vision, maybe its that people have known about him for longer and had pre-determined schemas about him coming into the league. Any schema a person has for Jeremy Lin was pretty much created on a whim. Gunslingers like them are always gonna be high up in the TOs. Not everyone can be like ja boi CP3.

Kashmir13579
07-02-2012, 07:20 PM
And to clarify to anyone coming in here and seeing these posts, I AM NOT advocating for Jeremy Lin to win any of these next spots.