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View Full Version : Is R.A Dickey the best pitcher in baseball right now?



Zmaster52
06-30-2012, 01:07 AM
He's close to the lead in nearly every big statistic and with another 8 shutout innings of double digit Ks, he's making a solid bid for a first half Cy Young.

waveycrockett
06-30-2012, 01:09 AM
I'm a huge Met fan. But no chance.

Fly
06-30-2012, 01:12 AM
I think Greinke holds that title. Better FIP, xFIP, HR/9, BB/9 and their K/9 are basically the same.

waveycrockett
06-30-2012, 01:15 AM
I think Greinke holds that title. Better FIP, xFIP, HR/9, BB/9 and their K/9 are basically the same.

I'm not so sure after this game tho fangraphs is pretty slow to update.

yfern328
06-30-2012, 01:28 AM
I think Greinke holds that title. Better FIP, xFIP, HR/9, BB/9 and their K/9 are basically the same.

When these numbers look the same, and the stats you point out are marginal differences, you've gotta go with traditional scouting. Hitters look absolutely perplexed when they have to deal with Dickey. Additionally, throw out 2 of Dickey's starts, 1 against the Yankees and 1 against the Braves, and his numbers are unreal. To be fair, you can eliminate Greinke's games against Arizona and Chicago. Dickey has put up a lot more shutout innings than Greinke. All the stats you brought up are very, very close with the exception of the FIP and HR/9. Naturally you expect a team to hit a knuckleball out more often than a fastball, so basically since the xFIP are so close and all the other stats are so close, I'm giving the nod to Dickey. Additionally, tonight's game wasn't counted. Guys have no idea at all how to approach him in the batter's box.

Mousedog332
06-30-2012, 01:36 AM
Yes

ramfan63074
06-30-2012, 01:57 AM
Greinke is good but he isn't even one of the top 3 in baseball right now..Matt Cain has been impressive..Cain and Dickey are basically the same pitcher so I am voting with them being 1 and 2 with Verlander being 3

hgtiger32
06-30-2012, 02:16 AM
Good lord, what an embarrassing thread. No. Just no

waveycrockett
06-30-2012, 02:22 AM
Good lord, what an embarrassing thread. No. Just no

Embarrassing for who? Have you followed baseball this year?

metswon69
06-30-2012, 02:28 AM
Good lord, what an embarrassing thread. No. Just no

Seriously dude, i mean they had this argument already about who the frontrunner for the NL Cy Young and i'll give you there are other horses in this race and advanced metrics favor Greinke but the eye test favors Dickey.

Did you see his statline?

He is now 12-1 with a 2.15 ERA, with a whip of .88, 116 k's in 113 innings, and .190 BAA against.

He's had 2 bad starts all season, and the rest of the time has been pretty close to dominant and hitters look foolish at the plate against Dickey it seems game after game.

I know there is a lot of anti-NY bias here, but it's hard not to consider him the most dominant SP in both leagues to this point.

Super.
06-30-2012, 02:29 AM
Was Tim Wakefield the best pitcher in '96?

Man you people have some short *** ****ing memories

metswon69
06-30-2012, 02:33 AM
Was Tim Wakefield the best pitcher in '96?

Man you people have some short *** ****ing memories

It was 95' where Wakefield had his best season by the way and he wasn't nearly as good that season as Dickey is this year.

He didn't average a K per inning, have a Whip of under 1, have a SO/BB ratio of nearly 4.5 to 1 during any season of his career, in fact he never came close to those numbers even in his best years.

Wakefield also never threw an 80mph knuckleball and only won 16 games that whole year where as Dickey has 12 wins already in June.

There is really no comparison at all between Dickey and Wakefield besides the fact that they throw knuckleballs, aside from that they are completely different.

Giannis94
06-30-2012, 02:39 AM
Yes. Wanna know why?



I said so.

Toxeryll
06-30-2012, 03:43 AM
no

Federal Reserve
06-30-2012, 03:47 AM
The Yankees exposed Dickey as an average pitcher. Pitchers who play in the NL shouldn't be included in the conversation of elite pitchers.

metswon69
06-30-2012, 03:58 AM
The Yankees exposed Dickey as an average pitcher. Pitchers who play in the NL shouldn't be included in the conversation of elite pitchers.

Okay, one bad start and he's an average pitcher, when he has been dominating almost everyone all season including two AL teams to go with all that dominance against NL teams (Baltimore & Tampa).

You're right Dickey has been real average this year. :rolleyes:

LMAO, that's the dumbest thing i've ever heard on this site, especially the highlighted part. :facepalm:

Are you kidding me?

Guys like Cain, Greinke, Kershaw, Strasburg, etc etc don't belong in the conversation of elite pitchers?

I don't know what to say besides the fact that i am flabbergasted and troll or not, i just can't wrap my head around how amazingly stupid that statement is.

But i do have to thank you for one thing Federal Reserve, you just created my new sig!!

waveycrockett
06-30-2012, 04:05 AM
The Yankees exposed Dickey as an average pitcher. Pitchers who play in the NL shouldn't be included in the conversation of elite pitchers.

I guess the Mets exposed CC as an average pitcher as well the same day. And by your logic Clayton Kershaw isn't an elite pitcher? Stephen Strasburg? Zack Greinke? LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

yfern328
06-30-2012, 05:50 AM
The Yankees exposed Dickey as an average pitcher. Pitchers who play in the NL shouldn't be included in the conversation of elite pitchers.

Sure because Roy Halladay, R.A. Dickey, Matt Cain, Cliff Lee, Stephen Strasburg, Gio Gonzalez, Clayton Kershaw, Zack Greinke, & Madison Bumgarner aren't good pitchers....please dude.

Lots of pitchers are good these days and R.A. Dickey is one of them whether you would like to accept it or not. As far as exposing Dickey, Nick Swisher hit a 3R HR on a Dicky knuckler that spun and A-Rod happened to be on base due to a softly hit grounder to 3B, and Teixeira walked. He didn't have his A game, but he hardly got roughed up.

yfern328
06-30-2012, 05:53 AM
I guess the Mets exposed CC as an average pitcher as well the same day. And by your logic Clayton Kershaw isn't an elite pitcher? Stephen Strasburg? Zack Greinke? LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Thank you. Clearly by that logic, this statement is flawless, and CC Sabathia is not an elite pitcher.

Jeffy25
06-30-2012, 09:17 AM
If he is, it's crazy close.

MetsFanatic19
06-30-2012, 09:20 AM
The Yankees exposed Dickey as an average pitcher. Pitchers who play in the NL shouldn't be included in the conversation of elite pitchers.

no, the yankees exposed dickey as a human. prior to his start he threw two consecutive 1 hitters with 12 k's and then 13 k's. if your argument of him not being a cy young revolves around a start in which he gave up 5 runs to the best hitting team in the world and still didnt get a loss, then you should re think this whole debate over

kmo429
06-30-2012, 10:20 AM
]The Yankees exposed Dickey as an average pitcher.[/B] Pitchers who play in the NL shouldn't be included in the conversation of elite pitchers.

This is the most ignorant thing Ive EVER heard. Hes been lights ot all year. Guess what? he had BACK TO BACK CG SHUTOUT 1 HITTERS. Guess who he pitched them against??? American league teams. He's had 2 bad starts all year, one against the Yankees, ina start he didnt even pitch that poorly in besides one 3 run slam that he gave up, and hes an AVERAGE pitcher?

Please know things before you post

Super.
06-30-2012, 10:23 AM
It was 95' where Wakefield had his best season by the way and he wasn't nearly as good that season as Dickey is this year.

He didn't average a K per inning, have a Whip of under 1, have a SO/BB ratio of nearly 4.5 to 1 during any season of his career, in fact he never came close to those numbers even in his best years.

Wakefield also never threw an 80mph knuckleball and only won 16 games that whole year where as Dickey has 12 wins already in June.

There is really no comparison at all between Dickey and Wakefield besides the fact that they throw knuckleballs, aside from that they are completely different.


We're not even halfway through the season dude, it's the same god damned thing. The Knuckleball

Sick Of It All
06-30-2012, 10:36 AM
We're not even halfway through the season dude, it's the same god damned thing. The Knuckleball

Is the same pitch but Wakefield's knuckle ball does not have nearly the same velocity and he did not have the same command of it.

Is like comparing RJ's fastball to Jaime Moyer's.

Also Dickey walks a third of the guys that Wakefield walked.

ManningToTyree
06-30-2012, 10:43 AM
LOL at everyone responding to super troll Federal Reserve.

I think it is always difficult to choose the best pitcher in the whole league but Dickey is certainly in the conversations. I have not watched too many first halves that have been this dominant.

Jeffy25
06-30-2012, 10:50 AM
Is the same pitch but Wakefield's knuckle ball does not have nearly the same velocity and he did not have the same command of it.

Is like comparing RJ's fastball to Jaime Moyer's.

Also Dickey walks a third of the guys that Wakefield walked.

Not quite.

Dickey is exploding this year, no question.

But is walk rate is right in line with Wakefields.

TW - 3.4/9
RD - 2.9/9

And in Tim Wakefield's peak - 2.95 BB/9, almost identical to Dickey's.

His K rate was rarely above 6/9 (three year span above 7.5/9 though).

Before this year, Dickey had not topped 6.

I know you guys are excited about Dickey, and maybe he can maintain this level of production.....but it's still doubtful.

His pitch f/x data is really interesting in regards to his knuckleball.

Yes, his knuckle is different than Wakefield's and other knuckleballers, but it can be hit, and it has been hit. Let's give him more than half a season to show that he is really this unhittable. It's certainly possible, but history tells us that it isn't likely to be maintained.

It might surprise Mets fans to know that Dickey's knuckleball this year is almost identical to the last two years

2012 - 77.66 MPH, -1.02 Horizontal movement, 5.92 Vertical movement, 182 rotations
all other years - 76.22 MPH, -1.18 Horizontal movement, 5.87 Vertical movement, 203 rotations

So it's moving a little less and is a smidge faster. It's going to get hit. Same release point, same everything else.

1903
06-30-2012, 10:50 AM
I guess the Mets exposed CC as an average pitcher as well the same day. And by your logic Clayton Kershaw isn't an elite pitcher? Stephen Strasburg? Zack Greinke? LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I don't agree with what the other guy said but you also did not make a good counterpoint. CC was charged with 1 earned run in that game while 3 errors were made behind him leading to the other Mets runs.

yfern328
06-30-2012, 11:11 AM
It might surprise Mets fans to know that Dickey's knuckleball this year is almost identical to the last two years

2012 - 77.66 MPH, -1.02 Horizontal movement, 5.92 Vertical movement, 182 rotations
all other years - 76.22 MPH, -1.18 Horizontal movement, 5.87 Vertical movement, 203 rotations

So it's moving a little less and is a smidge faster. It's going to get hit. Same release point, same everything else.

Last year his knuckleball never rose as well. It blows my mind when I see him essentially throw a softball pitch. It's similar to years past, but it's not the same. The command is so different, and so is the approach. It might look the same on paper but watching the games from last year to this, there's definitely variation.

Jeffy25
06-30-2012, 11:13 AM
Last year his knuckleball never rose as well. It blows my mind when I see him essentially throw a softball pitch. It's similar to years past, but it's not the same. The command is so different, and so is the approach. It might look the same on paper but watching the games from last year to this, there's definitely variation.

Well pitch f/x can't attest for command. Even watching the game, you can't really. Only Dickey, and to an extent his catcher, knows where they are trying to throw the ball.

But as far as the pitch rising, that's vertical movement, and it's pretty close to the same as years past. It drops about 6 inches from his release point on average toward the plate. When it drops is difficult to answer specifically, usually later (the further the ball is from the pitchers release the faster it should drop, like anything related to all physics says lol)

I'm not trying to sound like I disagree, I'm just saying there isn't much that says his knuckleball is any different than years past other than a jump in 1.5 mph in velocity (which does matter, yes).

Pitch f/x says it moves a little more left and right, is thrown a tiny bit faster, and is actually rotating more than it used to (the goal is not have many rotations in the pitch).

yfern328
06-30-2012, 11:16 AM
I don't agree with what the other guy said but you also did not make a good counterpoint. CC was charged with 1 earned run in that game while 3 errors were made behind him leading to the other Mets runs.

True. However Dickey gave up 5ER on 5 hits courtesy of the long ball. While Sabathia did only give up 1ER, he did give up 9 hits and 2 walks. He actually looked a lot more hittable IMO that day than Dickey. Now end of the day Sabathia pitched a better game, but he didn't have his best stuff that day either.

Super.
06-30-2012, 11:16 AM
Is the same pitch but Wakefield's knuckle ball does not have nearly the same velocity and he did not have the same command of it.

Is like comparing RJ's fastball to Jaime Moyer's.

Also Dickey walks a third of the guys that Wakefield walked.

For the love of ****ing god, it's not halfway through the season yet.

Is Ubaldo the best pitcher too?

Knuckleball is a knuckleball, no matter the velocity. Wakefield was damn near just as effective during stretches like this.

Federal Reserve
06-30-2012, 11:17 AM
R.A Dickey is a 37 year old with a lucky first half of the season. It also helps that he pitches in the NL which has no offense. His production will take a sharp hit after the all-star break. You can quote me on that.

Angry Norwegian
06-30-2012, 11:20 AM
RA would be laughing and shaking his head at anyone chalking this up to luck. Yeah, like 10 years in the minors and working his *** off to master this pitch. Sure, just a lucky year. The man showed more fortitude and a better work ethic than anyone in baseball, and it's paying off.

Some people just don't give credit where credit is due. I don't care who you root for... what Dickey is doing right now is historic and it deserves some recognition beyond "he's lucky, the NL sucks". Back to back 1-hitters against the Rays and O's. I hope you're trolling.

d79cheese
06-30-2012, 11:22 AM
I just have a really hard time saying a knuckle baller is the best pitcher in the league. He is like the only guy who still throws it, so he has a HUGE advantage. That being said, very hard to argue with the results so far. Like a few have said/hinted at, I don't see this level of production maintaining through the rest of the year, where as I can see a handful of other top performers maintaining theirs (based on past years/age/ability). If I had a vote tho I would give him the slight nod for the 1st half Cy Young.

d79cheese
06-30-2012, 11:23 AM
R.A Dickey is a 37 year old with a lucky first half of the season. It also helps that he pitches in the conference that has no offense. His production will take a sharp hit after the all-star break. You can quote me on that.

The fact you are using the word "conference" lets me laugh off the rest of this statement because it tells me you have little to zero baseball knowledge.

Federal Reserve
06-30-2012, 11:31 AM
The fact you are using the word "conference" lets me laugh off the rest of this statement because it tells me you have little to zero baseball knowledge.

It was a typo, genius. That's about the only mistake you can find with my reasoning.

Jeffy25
06-30-2012, 11:31 AM
Dickey also fairs significantly worse the more guys see him.

One of the main reasons a knuckleballer succeeds is because nobody deals with them very often. Guys are better off worrying about the guy that throws 97 with 77 mph breaking stuff than worrying about the knuckleballer he will see once or twice a year.

You will notice that the teams that have had to face Dickey more than once have done significantly better against him.

Only two teams have faced him more than once this year, Braves and Marlins

Braves
First start of the year, 6 IP, 2 ER, 4BB, 3K, 1 HR, 5H, 53 Game Score
Third start of the year, 4.1 IP, 8 ER, 2BB, 5K, 3 HR, 8 H, 18 Game Score

Marlins
Fourth start of the year, 7 IP, 1 ER, 1BB, 7K, 1 HR, 3H, 68 Game Score
Seventh start of the year, 6 IP, 2 ER, 1 BB, 0K, 0 HR, 9H, 45 Game Score


Wakefield dealt with the same thing his entire career.


Guys never see the knuckleball, and getting up there for the first time trying to hit it live is going to be difficult.

The Yankees are the only team to hit him without seeing him more this year. And other than Jeter, the guys that did hit him, all saw a lot of Wakefield in their careers.

Last time I looked, there were only 4 guys in all of professional baseball that throw the knuckleball as their main pitch, and 2 of them are in independent ball. If you haven't seen it, it's going to be difficult to hit for awhile.

Innings 1-3 opponents are hitting - .187/.218/.292
Innings 4-6 opponents are hitting - .205/.266/.373

Considering the pitch is a lot like his knuckleball from years past with just some tiny adjustments, I'm guessing he gets hit a lot better in the second half.

Jeffy25
06-30-2012, 11:34 AM
For the love of ****ing god, it's not halfway through the season yet.

Is Ubaldo the best pitcher too?

Knuckleball is a knuckleball, no matter the velocity. Wakefield was damn near just as effective during stretches like this.

Exactly right, altough....Dickey's streak right now is a little better than any stretch Wakefield had.

But there are several stretches where Wakefield looked like the best pitcher in baseball too. Hell, look at his second half 2002. He was unbelievable.

hgtiger32
06-30-2012, 11:36 AM
I just don't think he's the best pitcher in MLB. If you had one game to win in a game 7 who would be your pitcher? RA Dickey? Doubt it...

WrightStuff82
06-30-2012, 11:45 AM
Here is why Dickey is currently, at this time, the best pitcher in baseball:

WHIP - Starting Pitchers - Team UZR/150

R.A. Dickey 0.88 (-9.8 UZR/150, 2nd Worst In Baseball)
Jered Weaver 0.92 (+6.3)
Matt Cain 0.95 (+0.6)
Brandon Beachy 0.96 (+11.4)
Chris Sale 0.97 (-0.2)
Justin Verlander 0.98 (-10.2)
James McDonald 0.98 (-0.8)
Jake Peavy 0.99 (-0.2)
Brandon Morrow 1.00 (+4.7)


Dickey gave up 3 hits last night.. One Andres Torres watched drop right in front of him, and the other two hits fell a couple feet away from the Mets right fielder Lucas Duda, who is a -39 UZR/150 RF. Pretty much one of the worst defensive RF of all time.

Dickey has a no-no vs the Rays if Wright makes a tough bare-handed play on a soft grounder by Upton.

He's throwing a .188 BAA... with one of the WORST DEFENSES IN BASEBALL BEHIND HIM! It's absolutely phenomenal.

WrightStuff82
06-30-2012, 11:56 AM
Dickey also fairs significantly worse the more guys see him.

One of the main reasons a knuckleballer succeeds is because nobody deals with them very often. Guys are better off worrying about the guy that throws 97 with 77 mph breaking stuff than worrying about the knuckleballer he will see once or twice a year.

You will notice that the teams that have had to face Dickey more than once have done significantly better against him.

Only two teams have faced him more than once this year, Braves and Marlins

Braves
First start of the year, 6 IP, 2 ER, 4BB, 3K, 1 HR, 5H, 53 Game Score
Third start of the year, 4.1 IP, 8 ER, 2BB, 5K, 3 HR, 8 H, 18 Game Score

Marlins
Fourth start of the year, 7 IP, 1 ER, 1BB, 7K, 1 HR, 3H, 68 Game Score
Seventh start of the year, 6 IP, 2 ER, 1 BB, 0K, 0 HR, 9H, 45 Game Score


Wakefield dealt with the same thing his entire career.


Guys never see the knuckleball, and getting up there for the first time trying to hit it live is going to be difficult.

The Yankees are the only team to hit him without seeing him more this year. And other than Jeter, the guys that did hit him, all saw a lot of Wakefield in their careers.

Last time I looked, there were only 4 guys in all of professional baseball that throw the knuckleball as their main pitch, and 2 of them are in independent ball. If you haven't seen it, it's going to be difficult to hit for awhile.

Innings 1-3 opponents are hitting - .187/.218/.292
Innings 4-6 opponents are hitting - .205/.266/.373

Considering the pitch is a lot like his knuckleball from years past with just some tiny adjustments, I'm guessing he gets hit a lot better in the second half.


This post is total bunk.

#1. Every team hits better the more time they see EVERY pitcher throughout a game. That 1-3, 4-6 inning stat is about worthless. Infact, if anything, it highlights how great Dickey has been. Show that stat with every other pitcher in the league. I beg you. There's very few guys whose numbers get stronger in the 4th-6th inning, and 7th+ inning than in the 1st-3rd. Maybe guys like Verlander who save their best stuff for later. But there's not many.

#2 There was horrible weather in the 2nd Braves game, and everyone has a bad game. Cherry picking those two examples is pretty weak on your part. Braves, Marlins, Phillies, Nationals have seen tons of Dickey the past 3 seasons. He is nothing new to them. The "More they see him, the more they hit" about knuckleballers is the biggest ******** myth in baseball. If that statement were remotely true, Niekro would have never had the career he had.

Dickey had a situation last August where he pitched twice to San Diego on back to back starts (5 days apart), and his statline was nearly identical. He pitched twice against both the Nationals and Marlins exactly 10 days apart in September, and he pitched better the 2nd time around.

If he has a rough start, he didn't feel his pitch that day. It has nothing to do with "Oh teams are seeing enough of him, they can hit it." Complete and total horseshit.

Sick Of It All
06-30-2012, 11:59 AM
For the love of ****ing god, it's not halfway through the season yet.

Is Ubaldo the best pitcher too?

Knuckleball is a knuckleball, no matter the velocity. Wakefield was damn near just as effective during stretches like this.

Have you realize that Dickey has been pretty good for 2 plus years now?

Is not just a half a season dude, the K's are what is different.

...and I do not understand what you point is regarding a knuckleball being a knuckleball no matter what velocity. There is a huge difference between the 2, again is like comparing a 95 mph fast ball with an 85 mph fastball, the odds of a guy hitting the faster pitch are less likely that of him hitting the softer pitch.

For years the though process with hitting knuckleballers has been to wait as much as possible and then swing, well when the pitch is thrown that fast that gives a hitter less time swing and many times you get this hacks at it that makes the hitter look clueless and if he takes it Dickey commands it so well that is a strike.

Let's not act like Dickey has been a 4.00+ ERA this last past 2 years, he posted a 2.84 ERA in 2010 and a 3.28 ERA in 2011.

Jeffy25
06-30-2012, 12:09 PM
Not quite.

Wakefield threw his knuckleball 67. Dickey throws his 77

But that isn't the same difference as adjusting from an 85 mph fastball to a 95 mph fastball.

When a pitch is 67 or 77, you know how slow that is, you can handle it. Dialing up to 95 though? You don't have very much time to react.

Dickey has less rotation, and Wakefield had more movement fwiw

metswon69
06-30-2012, 12:12 PM
We're not even halfway through the season dude, it's the same god damned thing. The Knuckleball

To this point he is the best pitcher in baseball to me, six of his last seven starts he hasn't really been touched.

First guy in 68 years to throw back to back one hitters in the NL, and say whatever you want about the knuckleball it doesn't change the fact that he is dominating people with it to this point.

WrightStuff82
06-30-2012, 12:15 PM
Not quite.

Wakefield threw his knuckleball 67. Dickey throws his 77

But that isn't the same difference as adjusting from an 85 mph fastball to a 95 mph fastball.

When a pitch is 67 or 77, you know how slow that is, you can handle it. Dialing up to 95 though? You don't have very much time to react.

Dickey has less rotation, and Wakefield had more movement fwiw

:facepalm: Oh dear... Yea, the only difference between a 77 mph knuckleball and a 67 mph knuckleball is bout 4 strikeouts per 9, and less walks because the ball has less time to knuckle out of the zone.. You are right.. 4 K/9, 1 BB/9 difference between velocities.. That is nothing. Yea, it makes no difference how fast he's throwing it.

Wow.. The level of ignorance here is stunning.

metswon69
06-30-2012, 12:19 PM
Braves
First start of the year, 6 IP, 2 ER, 4BB, 3K, 1 HR, 5H, 53 Game Score
Third start of the year, 4.1 IP, 8 ER, 2BB, 5K, 3 HR, 8 H, 18 Game Score

Dickey was also pitching in the rain in that game, and you of all people know it's much more difficult for a knuckleballer to pitch in the rain than it is your conventional throw 95 type of guy.

He has had two bad starts this season, but what pitcher doesn't have a few stinkers during the season?

Jeffy25
06-30-2012, 12:30 PM
This post is total bunk.

#1. Every team hits better the more time they see EVERY pitcher throughout a game. That 1-3, 4-6 inning stat is about worthless. Infact, if anything, it highlights how great Dickey has been. Show that stat with every other pitcher in the league. I beg you. There's very few guys whose numbers get stronger in the 4th-6th inning, and 7th+ inning than in the 1st-3rd. Maybe guys like Verlander who save their best stuff for later. But there's not many.
I can name a bunch, like Wade Miley.

A lot of pitchers just have to get through the first few innings and then they get into a groove.

Overall, in baseball. Most pitchers do worse the second and third times through, but certainly not all pitchers.



#2 There was horrible weather in the 2nd Braves game, and everyone has a bad game. Cherry picking those two examples is pretty weak on your part.
Cherry picking? That was the whole argument. Those are the ONLY two teams he has faced twice.


Braves, Marlins, Phillies, Nationals have seen tons of Dickey the past 3 seasons. He is nothing new to them.
If he is in fact different this year, which all Mets fans are coming out of the wood work to tell all of us here on PSD. That he is basically a new pitcher this year. Then what they are seeing, is in fact, a new pitcher. Right? There are tons of posts, heck a few in this very thread....by Mets fans saying that.


The "More they see him, the more they hit" about knuckleballers is the biggest ******** myth in baseball. If that statement were remotely true, Niekro would have never had the career he had.
When you see a guy once, maybe twice a year. How much are you going to worry about studying him?

You don't have to believe it, but it's supported by numbers.

Wakefield was the worst against the Yankees, whom he started against 36 times, and faced 58 times, and was at his best against teams he saw less than 10 times.

The guys that hit him best? A-Rod, Delgado, Crawford, Posada, Tejada, Bernie Williams etc.

These guys carried .900 OPS's against Wakefield and saw him over 90 times.

Guys that saw him less than 10 times? Carried an OPS under .550, guys that saw him over 30 times carried an OPS over .800.

Strange, no? Jeter is like the only guy to never learn how to hit the knuckleball. He never could hit Wakefield, and didn't hit Dickey the other day either.

Niekro had much the same issue.

The guys that did the best against Niekro....Tony Perez, Johnny Bench, Darrell Evans, Larry Biittner, Richie Zisk, Gary Thomaason.

Guys that saw him over 30 times. Almost the identical situation to Wakefield.


Dickey had a situation last August where he pitched twice to San Diego on back to back starts (5 days apart), and his statline was nearly identical. He pitched twice against both the Nationals and Marlins exactly 10 days apart in September, and he pitched better the 2nd time around.
Maybe so, but I thought he was a different pitcher this year?

But what about his June 5th to June 16th start against Atl? 8 innings 1 earned, followed by 4 innings 4 earned.

Or what about his second start against Houston on May 14th after facing them 2 weeks earlier?
5.1 IP, 6 Earned runs?

You can pick out two starts, I can pick out two starts.


If he has a rough start, he didn't feel his pitch that day. It has nothing to do with "Oh teams are seeing enough of him, they can hit it." Complete and total horseshit.

Or you just don't like to believe statistical evidence. Your choice. I'm not saying Dickey can't out-pitch teams if he sees them a few times. But he has a distinct advantage being the only knuckleballer in baseball, and being rarely seen by teams who deal with a different kind of pitcher all year long.

It isn't his fault, it's his advantage. He should continue to exploit his advantage. But it doesn't make him the best pitcher in baseball, nor does it make him not the best pitcher in baseball. It is worth noting that teams have faired significantly better against him the more they see him.

Guys that have seen the most of Dickey
Polanco - .508 OPS
Infante - 1.181 OPS
Bourn - .797 OPS
Ibanez - 1.058 OPS
Uggla - .295 OPS
Werth - 1.300 OPS
Sanchez - 1.179 OPS
Anderson - .875 OPS
Ankiel - 1.069 OPS
Eckstein - .909 OPS

So two guys can't hit him, and what...8 can?

Guys with over 20 plate appearances against Dickey are carrying an OPS over .800, and guys with less than 20 plate appearances are carrying an OPS just above .600.

But, I guess it's complete and utter horseshit as you said.

fingerbang
06-30-2012, 12:31 PM
Dickey fever is back after a week off.

Jeffy25
06-30-2012, 12:36 PM
:facepalm: Oh dear... Yea, the only difference between a 77 mph knuckleball and a 67 mph knuckleball is bout 4 strikeouts per 9, and less walks because the ball has less time to knuckle out of the zone.. You are right.. 4 K/9, 1 BB/9 difference between velocities.. That is nothing. Yea, it makes no difference how fast he's throwing it.

Wow.. The level of ignorance here is stunning.

So this is the only year that counts?

Carry rate differences
TW - 3.4 BB/9 - 6.0 K/9 which includes his post-prime years where he was throwing slower
RD - 2.9 BB/9 - 6.0 K/9

hmmm, I guess the ignorance really is stunning.

Know who else can throw 67? Josh Collementer, Zach Greinke, and Livan Hernandez can all throw a breaking pitch that slowly. They can also each throw a breaking pitch 77. Jamie Moyer can throw all of about 77. It doesn't mean they can get more strike outs somehow with that 77 vs that 67.

Not to mention, Dickey and Wakefield have the same horizontal movement, and Wakefield had more vertical movement.

You can't compare 67 vs 77 to 85 vs 95. They are not the same differences from 60 feet away.

smm9127
06-30-2012, 12:50 PM
:facepalm: Oh dear... Yea, the only difference between a 77 mph knuckleball and a 67 mph knuckleball is bout 4 strikeouts per 9, and less walks because the ball has less time to knuckle out of the zone.. You are right.. 4 K/9, 1 BB/9 difference between velocities.. That is nothing. Yea, it makes no difference how fast he's throwing it.

Wow.. The level of ignorance here is stunning.

You say that you are stunned by the level of ignorance, and yet you automatically attribute differences in BB/9 and K/9 based solely upon the speed of the knuckleball? Wouldn't it be more likely that the reasons he has lower walk rates and higher strike out rates be because he is commanding the ball better than Wakefield did (except for that few year stretch Wakefield was around 7 K/9)? It seems to be you're a bit butthurt because someone won't admit Dickeys knuckleball is teh best evar! Wakefield had excellent movement on his knuckleball, maybe even a bit more than Dickey but he didn't have the command of it Dickey has currently been exhibiting.

Dickey's command of the knuckleball has been exceptional this half but I don't see him continuing at this level of dominance the whole season. Thats not to say hes going to be bad in the second half, but I figure he get down to around 8K/9 but jumps a bit higher to about 7 or so hits/9. He's certainly in the conversation for best pitcher thus far this season but calling everyone ignorant just makes you look like a *******.

1903
06-30-2012, 01:47 PM
Also this seems like the 3rd or 4th R.A Dickey thread in the past few weeks. It's as if Mets fans are looking for other fans to heap praise on him or seeking approval.

Jeffy25
06-30-2012, 01:50 PM
Also this seems like the 3rd or 4th R.A Dickey thread in the past few weeks. It's as if Mets fans are looking for other fans to heap praise on him or seeking approval.

Mets and Cubs each have fans come out of nowhere to defend their players in the MLB section all the time. It's the two fanbases that have plenty of posters that only post about that team in the MLB section.

gmanthree15
06-30-2012, 05:06 PM
The Yankees exposed Dickey as an average pitcher. Pitchers who play in the NL shouldn't be included in the conversation of elite pitchers.

I guess the Mets exposed CC as an average pitcher as well?

KnIckFaN.2883
06-30-2012, 05:24 PM
Not quite.

Dickey is exploding this year, no question.

But is walk rate is right in line with Wakefields.

TW - 3.4/9
RD - 2.9/9

And in Tim Wakefield's peak - 2.95 BB/9, almost identical to Dickey's.

His K rate was rarely above 6/9 (three year span above 7.5/9 though).

Before this year, Dickey had not topped 6.

I know you guys are excited about Dickey, and maybe he can maintain this level of production.....but it's still doubtful.

His pitch f/x data is really interesting in regards to his knuckleball.

Yes, his knuckle is different than Wakefield's and other knuckleballers, but it can be hit, and it has been hit. Let's give him more than half a season to show that he is really this unhittable. It's certainly possible, but history tells us that it isn't likely to be maintained.

It might surprise Mets fans to know that Dickey's knuckleball this year is almost identical to the last two years

2012 - 77.66 MPH, -1.02 Horizontal movement, 5.92 Vertical movement, 182 rotations
all other years - 76.22 MPH, -1.18 Horizontal movement, 5.87 Vertical movement, 203 rotations

So it's moving a little less and is a smidge faster. It's going to get hit. Same release point, same everything else.

yea its been like that for the two years but the mets have put runs on the board when he has started so thats also he's been doing so well.

EastNYLos
06-30-2012, 05:26 PM
i think he's up there right now..but i'll wait to reserve judgement after the all star break

Jeffy25
06-30-2012, 05:34 PM
yea its been like that for the two years but the mets have put runs on the board when he has started so thats also he's been doing so well.

Yup, it's crazy how many more runs he is getting in support this year

2010 - 84 IP - 174.1
2011 - 93 IP - 208.2
2012 - 70 IP - 113.0

Pretty significant jump.

Of course, he has also improved pretty dramatically himself.

NYMETS2889
06-30-2012, 05:39 PM
The Yankees exposed Dickey as an average pitcher. Pitchers who play in the NL shouldn't be included in the conversation of elite pitchers.

by that logic the mets exposed CC for a sub par pitcher-his stat line was essentially the same as dickeys in their starts against each other and cc was pitching against the nl line up you clearly don't respect

NYMETS2889
06-30-2012, 05:48 PM
Not quite.

Dickey is exploding this year, no question.

But is walk rate is right in line with Wakefields.

TW - 3.4/9
RD - 2.9/9

And in Tim Wakefield's peak - 2.95 BB/9, almost identical to Dickey's.

His K rate was rarely above 6/9 (three year span above 7.5/9 though).

Before this year, Dickey had not topped 6.

I know you guys are excited about Dickey, and maybe he can maintain this level of production.....but it's still doubtful.

His pitch f/x data is really interesting in regards to his knuckleball.

Yes, his knuckle is different than Wakefield's and other knuckleballers, but it can be hit, and it has been hit. Let's give him more than half a season to show that he is really this unhittable. It's certainly possible, but history tells us that it isn't likely to be maintained.

It might surprise Mets fans to know that Dickey's knuckleball this year is almost identical to the last two years

2012 - 77.66 MPH, -1.02 Horizontal movement, 5.92 Vertical movement, 182 rotations
all other years - 76.22 MPH, -1.18 Horizontal movement, 5.87 Vertical movement, 203 rotations

So it's moving a little less and is a smidge faster. It's going to get hit. Same release point, same everything else.

it actually doesn't surprise me-ive considered dickey a stopper and a top pitcher in baseball the last 2 years he has shown he isn't a fluke

he can hang 0's with the best of them just does it in a different way

Sick Of It All
06-30-2012, 06:04 PM
Not quite.

Wakefield threw his knuckleball 67. Dickey throws his 77

But that isn't the same difference as adjusting from an 85 mph fastball to a 95 mph fastball.

When a pitch is 67 or 77, you know how slow that is, you can handle it. Dialing up to 95 though? You don't have very much time to react.

Dickey has less rotation, and Wakefield had more movement fwiw

Actually no, Dickey throws it around 79-80 MPH, but he also throws a slower one in the mid 60's, so when you average them out his average velocity is lowered.

10-12 mph is a huge difference specially when you talking about such a unique pitch. Assuming that just because is slow compared to a fastball a batter should be able to handle it. Reality is just about any major leaguer can handle a 95 mph fast ball. Is command of it and movement that makes a fastball special.

Ask any major leaguer and see if they tell you that hitting a 79-80 mph knuckle ball is the same as hitting a 65-66 mph one and you probably get a no answer.

Sick Of It All
06-30-2012, 06:12 PM
it actually doesn't surprise me-ive considered dickey a stopper and a top pitcher in baseball the last 2 years he has shown he isn't a fluke

he can hang 0's with the best of them just does it in a different way

It does not surprise me at all either, he is striking out more because he has better command of it, not because it has more movement, Dickey is throwing the ball up in the zone, down in the zone and batters just do not seem to get a good handle on it. Last year he was messing around with the slow one in the first half and he struggled at times, in the 2nd half he was a lot more dominant and why his ERA was almost a whole run lower. 1st half it was 3.61 and in the 2nd half it was 2.87.

...and yeah people here seem to think that this is a 1st half fluke, but again he has done quite well for 2 and 1/2 years now, this year he just has become more dominant with the pitch because he has better control and command of it which is something that seems to be impossible when describing a guy who throws that pitch.

Twinke Masta
06-30-2012, 06:58 PM
How about we stop arguing and just watch the rest of the season unfold!

northsider
06-30-2012, 07:43 PM
Nope.

Amazing stat line but, not the best pitcher.

Sick Of It All
06-30-2012, 07:47 PM
BTW to answer the question, no I do not think he is the best pitcher, he just has one of the most dominant pitches right now and due to it he has put himself in the discussion.

onlythisfar41
06-30-2012, 08:14 PM
Everyone who knows Federal Reserve knows he is a supreme troll. However those of you that do not, dont think he speaks for Yankee fans as a whole. Most Yankee fans on this board are level headed and assess situations and players fairly.

xxplayerxx23
06-30-2012, 10:28 PM
How can you say bad things about dickey. Up to this point he is one of the best in the League. Who cares about if you think he is going to have a horrible second half or not. As of right now he is pitching gem after gem. He is one of the best in the game right now no doubt about it.
BTW:Yankee fan

northsider
06-30-2012, 10:35 PM
He's not THE BEST though which is the question asked.

JRollins Hater
07-01-2012, 01:58 AM
Everyone who knows Federal Reserve knows he is a supreme troll. However those of you that do not, dont think he speaks for Yankee fans as a whole. Most Yankee fans on this board are level headed and assess situations and players fairly.

LOL yes. I am a huge Jets fan and I used to watch him post absolute horse **** that would make all Jet fans look bad.

I started reading this thread and came upon a few his posts. I was going to dispute him until I read his username.

Especially calling each league a "conference" further discredits him.

Bottom line, Dickey is not the best pitcher in baseball. But he probably had the best first half of anyone in baseball. And for people to say that this is a fluke just haven't been following the mets the past few years.

metswon69
07-01-2012, 02:35 AM
Everyone who knows Federal Reserve knows he is a supreme troll. However those of you that do not, dont think he speaks for Yankee fans as a whole. Most Yankee fans on this board are level headed and assess situations and players fairly.

We know Thisfar lol, he's definitely a super troll.

I just had to quote him in my signature because troll or not, it's still the dumbest thing i've ever read here and part of me thinks he is dead serious when he says it.

waveycrockett
07-01-2012, 07:27 AM
Last year his knuckleball never rose as well. It blows my mind when I see him essentially throw a softball pitch. It's similar to years past, but it's not the same. The command is so different, and so is the approach. It might look the same on paper but watching the games from last year to this, there's definitely variation.

Whatever he got charged with he still got smacked around that game. He gave up like 10 hits I think in 5 innings.

Oldmantrash
07-01-2012, 08:08 AM
R.A Dickey is a 37 year old with a lucky first half of the season. It also helps that he pitches in the NL which has no offense. His production will take a sharp hit after the all-star break. You can quote me on that.

He Had 1 hitters vs. 2 American league teams this year.

Bad logic

Ramlaen
07-01-2012, 09:43 AM
The Yankee did expose him to what a good hitting team will do to him; he is a good 3rd rotation pitcher at best

I guess CC is also a 3rd rotation pitcher since the Mets exposed him?

Beltrans Mole
07-01-2012, 10:05 AM
Funny stuff. 12-1 with a 2.15 ERA and 115 K's...

SportsNY
07-01-2012, 10:32 AM
Yes, how can he not be?

metswon69
07-01-2012, 11:25 AM
The Yankee did expose him to what a good hitting team will do to him; he is a good 3rd rotation pitcher at best:speechless:

Another troll :facepalm:

WrightStuff82
07-01-2012, 12:12 PM
Just seen this stat on BT.

Dickey has 6 starts this year with 6+ IP, and 3 hits or less.

Seaver's best season was 7.
Gooden and Cone never had more than 5.

And this is with the worst defense in baseball behind him. Absolutely, phenomenal. To piss on what he's done this year, is just trolling.

Wrigheyes4MVP
07-05-2012, 03:25 AM
Well, to answer this question: He has been the best pitcher so far this year without a doubt, but no he is not the best pitcher in baseball. He may look like it at times because his knuckleball can be unhittable on certain days, but its still a knuckleball and unpredictability still defines the very essence of that pitch.

Having said that, it is absurd to compare him to Wakefield. He is a better pitcher than Wakefield, and his knuckleball is clearly superior.

When I look at R.A. Dickey right now, I see a guy who compares far closer to Phil Niekro than to Tim Wakefield. Dickey may not have the tenure that Niekro proved to have, but he has shown me enough in 2+ seasons to lead me to believe that he can continue to throw that knuckleball and pitch at caliber far closer to Niekro's than to Wakefield's.

Niekro was never the best pitcher in baseball, but he had some dominant seasons and was a beacon of consistency throughout the prime years of his career. He had multiple seasons finishing as a legit Cy Young candidate and remember...he is a HOFer. And of course, when he knuckle was on, he like many other knuckleballers could go on a ridiculous hot streak, much like Dickey is on right now. But still, Niekro was better than those other knuckleballers because he found a way to stay consistent with it. I believe Dickey has done the same (I'm not even referring to his hot streak he is on right now).

Dickey has a long ways to go to become a HOFer to don't take this post out of context. What I mean to say is that Dickey is capable of being one of the most dominant pitchers in baseball when he is on. And, he has shown enough consistency to the point where he can maintain his status as one of the games top pitchers, much like Niekro was able to do during his playing days. Wakefield wasn't at that level. Niekro was, and I believe Dickey is proving to be at that level too. Its the rare combination of finding consistency with the most inconsistent pitch in the game. Niekro achieved this rare combination. Dickey seems to have achieved this rare combination as well. It is certainly noteworthy and should not be pushed aside as just another knuckeballer on a random hot streak.

Best pitcher baseball? No, probably not. There are a few guys I would probably still rank ahead of him. Kershaw, Weaver, and Verlander for sure. There are arguably 10 or so other pitchers as well.

Legit ace and one of the best pitchers in baseball? Yes, I think so. He can be as good, if not better than, every other pitcher in the game when he is on...and he has found enough consistency with his knuckle to the extent that he can be counted on to not fall victim to the same type of inconsistencies that a guy like Tim Wakefield was vulnerable to.

Wrigheyes4MVP
07-05-2012, 03:49 AM
The Yankee did expose him to what a good hitting team will do to him; he is a good 3rd rotation pitcher at best:speechless:

You can't be serious. You must be trolling, right?

He leads the MLB in ERA, WHIP, and BAA. He is 3rd in Ks and 4th in IP.

I don't care if you are an R.A. Dickey believer or not...anyone who thinks he is a middle of the rotation starter is flat out insane. There is no rational argument for it.

If you are an R.A. Dickey believer...you would be one who believes he is a legit ace and one of the top pitchers in the game (if you are a Mets fan you would believe he is the best :D).

If you are not an R.A. Dickey believer...you would be one who believes that he is a really good #2 starter because the unpredictability of the knuckleball will prevent him from having the same level of consistency and success as the other top tier aces over the long haul of an entire season and/or an entire career.

If you are a nonsensical *** clown...you would be one who believes that he is a middle of the rotation starter.

Pinstripe pride
07-05-2012, 08:48 AM
Greatest Pitcher to ever step on an MLB mound

Harry777
08-27-2012, 01:01 AM
The Yankee did expose him to what a good hitting team will do to him; he is a good 3rd rotation pitcher at best:speechless:

How ya feel about that now?

Captain Moroni
08-27-2012, 01:15 AM
Dickey deserves a shot at cy young.

utl768
08-27-2012, 01:23 AM
nope

still top 5 though

waveycrockett
08-27-2012, 02:13 AM
Best pitcher of all time.

Dickey>Matt Cain>Linecum

SenorGato
08-27-2012, 02:34 AM
It's still Verlander.

Teufelshunde4
08-27-2012, 02:58 AM
It's still Verlander.
Hard to argue against King Felix right now..

Pinstripe pride
08-27-2012, 09:13 AM
rename the cy young after him!