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View Full Version : Ruben Tejada has a higher .war then Jose Reyes in about half as many games played



utl768
06-30-2012, 12:23 AM
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/tejadru01.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/reyesjo01.shtml

i dont really believe in these type of stats but i find it interesting since everyone killed the mets for not overpaying for reyes

1903
06-30-2012, 12:28 AM
Perhaps some Mets fans were vocal but everyone else knew it was a bad move to overpay Reyes.

utl768
06-30-2012, 12:30 AM
Perhaps some Mets fans were vocal but everyone else knew it was a bad move to overpay Reyes.

i was guilty of it to an extent but six years for reyes was too much

never thought ruben would be out performing reyes though

akagiredsuns
06-30-2012, 12:37 AM
LOL at how excessively WAR is used. Let's wait until the season is over to compare stats. We're barely about to pass the halfway mark. This means nothing in June. A lot can change from now to then.

Fly
06-30-2012, 12:42 AM
Too bad BR's WAR is a crock of crap

waveycrockett
06-30-2012, 12:44 AM
THiS MEANS WAR!!!!!!!

ugafan
06-30-2012, 12:44 AM
Too bad BR's WAR is a crock of crap

I highly doubt you know how either WAR is calculated.

waveycrockett
06-30-2012, 12:46 AM
i was guilty of it to an extent but six years for reyes was too much

never thought ruben would be out performing reyes though

I like Reuben. He is Orlando Cabrera 2.0 but lets not get crazy he isn't a better SS than Jose Reyes.

Agar81
06-30-2012, 12:47 AM
You could also think of it as since he has played fewer games, it's a smaller sample size where he could just be playing really well right now :shrug:

More-Than-Most
06-30-2012, 12:49 AM
I made it clear loudly a year in advance that the mets needed to trade Reyes because he would not be worth the over payment...I got criticized by met fans about being a stupid phillies homer... I then Lol hard at what he got from the Marlins and thought the mets were far and away better off...I got laughed at again...Within 2 years they will trade him away...Mark it down

utl768
06-30-2012, 12:49 AM
I like Reuben. He is Orlando Cabrera 2.0 but lets not get crazy he isn't a better SS than Jose Reyes.

ur probably right but reyes outside of 2006-2008 was pretty heavily overrated

utl768
06-30-2012, 12:51 AM
I made it clear loudly a year in advance that the mets needed to trade Reyes because he would not be worth the over payment...I got criticized by met fans about being a stupid phillies homer... I then Lol hard at what he got from the Marlins and thought the mets were far and away better off...I got laughed at again...Within 2 years they will trade him away...Mark it down

i agree i cant see him lasting all 6 years in a marlins uniform

Kenny
06-30-2012, 12:54 AM
By the end of the year lets see how many shortstops have better numbers then Reyes. I would bet a lot you won't get past the first hand of counting. He got off to a crappy start. Calm down the same people probable think Pujols sucked too

Fly
06-30-2012, 12:55 AM
I highly doubt you know how either WAR is calculated.

Why would you just assume this? Is it impossible that I could read up on Baseball Reference's WAR and Fangraphs WAR systems and compare the two? Is it just impossible that I prefer fWAR because it uses UZR, and I'm not a fan of RF?

SACNYY
06-30-2012, 01:03 AM
Jose Reyes is not that good. Never has been. Had 1 really good year and surprise surprise it was a contract year.

utl768
06-30-2012, 01:07 AM
Jose Reyes is not that good. Never has been. Had 1 really good year and surprise surprise it was a contract year.

06-08 he was one of the best players in all of baseball

yfern328
06-30-2012, 01:10 AM
By the end of the year lets see how many shortstops have better numbers then Reyes. I would bet a lot you won't get past the first hand of counting. He got off to a crappy start. Calm down the same people probable think Pujols sucked too

At best he hits .300 this year. Anyway the point is he's not getting paid to put up his 2005 stats without the steals. I can already say Starlin Castro, Asdrubal Cabrera, Elvis Andrus, and Derek Jeter will all probably have better years unless Reyes has an absolutely torrid second half. And this is in a year that Tulo is out. Reyes is one of my favorite players, but he should not be getting paid what he is. Even if he ends the year with top 5 SS numbers, he's not worth that full contract. It looks fine now when Reyes is getting paid 10M and a guy like Rafael Furcal is getting 6M. But in 2015, when the backload of that deal kicks in and he's getting paid 22M, the Marlins are going to look real dumb.

Yes he put up a terrible April, and he followed that with a solid May, and an average June. I get your point that he will get better, but I think the point others are trying to make is whether or not he's worth it.

Sick Of It All
06-30-2012, 01:28 AM
I still want Reyes to be a Met, he will still put years together where he is phenomenal like he did between 06-08 and in 2011.

Tejada has been a real pleasant surprise and the Mets should find themselves lucky that he was here ready to take over for Reyes, but over the next 5-6 years Reyes production will be much much better than Tejada and that is my opinion.

waveycrockett
06-30-2012, 01:30 AM
I still want Reyes to be a Met, he will still put years together where he is phenomenal like he did between 06-08 and in 2011.

Tejada has been a real pleasant surprise and the Mets should find themselves lucky that he was here ready to take over for Reyes, but over the next 5-6 years Reyes production will be much much better than Tejada and that is my opinion.

Tejada just doesn't have the tools to be better than Reyes or make it close really.

Sick Of It All
06-30-2012, 01:32 AM
You are right about the tools, but Tejada is playing above his tools it seems, can he continue to hit .300? and can he continue to hit a good amount of doubles? If he does he will be very valuable specially if he continues to play solid defense.

utl768
06-30-2012, 01:44 AM
Tejada just doesn't have the tools to be better than Reyes or make it close really.

sure but when tejada is making 490k and reyes is pulling in 10 million (with a salary that will rise to 22 million in a couple of seasons) it doesnt really matter

the problem is the mets never spent that money elsewhere which is what really pissed mets fans off more then anything

More-Than-Most
06-30-2012, 01:48 AM
I still want Reyes to be a Met, he will still put years together where he is phenomenal like he did between 06-08 and in 2011.

Tejada has been a real pleasant surprise and the Mets should find themselves lucky that he was here ready to take over for Reyes, but over the next 5-6 years Reyes production will be much much better than Tejada and that is my opinion.

He is a nice talent to have but would you honestly want him with that contract? Sorry but that is the deal breaker for me....The Mets should have traded him and got a ton. They need to stay away from the dumb contract and continue to rebuild...Their farm has become very good and they have some young pieces in the majors

More-Than-Most
06-30-2012, 01:50 AM
bringing out my inner met fan lol...tsu would never let me live it down

jetsfan89
06-30-2012, 01:50 AM
sure but when tejada is making 490k and reyes is pulling in 10 million (with a salary that will rise to 22 million in a couple of seasons) it doesnt really matter

the problem is the mets never spent that money elsewhere which is what really pissed mets fans off more then anything

and that's basically what it all comes down to. It's perfectly understandable if you're not willing to give a guy like reyes the money and years he got because of the type of player he is and his past injury problems, but pocketing the money won't go over well with the casual fan.

More-Than-Most
06-30-2012, 01:54 AM
and that's basically what it all comes down to. It's perfectly understandable if you're not willing to give a guy like reyes the money and years he got because of the type of player he is and his past injury problems, but pocketing the money won't go over well with the casual fan.

Fans OR ANY GROUP are morons..See our fanbase...The Phillies spent/spent/spent and threw money around because we could and look at where that has put us... Our front office stated publicly if we continue to come they will continue to spend and that burns me up...I love having the ability of our organization being able to go out and get whoever but its a double sided sword...They fell in love with it and spent just to spend and did so unwisely... Pocketing the money is the best thing the mets can do right now...Pocket it and continue to build and spend when your close enough that a few top free agents will put you over the top

utl768
06-30-2012, 01:55 AM
He is a nice talent to have but would you honestly want him with that contract? Sorry but that is the deal breaker for me....The Mets should have traded him and got a ton. They need to stay away from the dumb contract and continue to rebuild...Their farm has become very good and they have some young pieces in the majors

the mets didnt trade him because the mets care first and foremost about selling tickets and not the well being of the baseball team

the extra cash the wilpons generated in the 2nd half of 2011 in reyes chase for the batting title was worth more then the really nice package they could have gotten from a team at last years deadline for a player that they OBVIOUSLY never were going to make a serious attempt at resigning

utl768
06-30-2012, 01:58 AM
Fans OR ANY GROUP are morons..See our fanbase...The Phillies spent/spent/spent and threw money around because we could and look at where that has put us... Our front office stated publicly if we continue to come they will continue to spend and that burns me up...I love having the ability of our organization being able to go out and get whoever but its a double sided sword...They fell in love with it and spent just to spend and did so unwisely... Pocketing the money is the best thing the mets can do right now...Pocket it and continue to build and spend when your close enough that a few top free agents will put you over the top

thats not the way the mets look at it though

the mets pocketed the money because wilpon was broke last year and needed to dip into the mets operating budget to pay his debt

the baseball team was never the priority

More-Than-Most
06-30-2012, 02:00 AM
thats not the way the mets look at it though

the mets pocketed the money because wilpon was broke last year and needed to dip into the mets operating budget to pay his debt

the baseball team was never the priority

I do not disagree...I am saying in general...Sick said he would want reyes....I am putting out why in my opinion it would have been the bad route to go. As for the pocketing I get your owners did it but it might be the best thing for the organization down the line...Now you will not have those contracts and will have the ability to spend down the line if the owners have it or if the mets get new owners.

jetsfan89
06-30-2012, 02:01 AM
Fans OR ANY GROUP are morons..See our fanbase...The Phillies spent/spent/spent and threw money around because we could and look at where that has put us... Our front office stated publicly if we continue to come they will continue to spend and that burns me up...I love having the ability of our organization being able to go out and get whoever but its a double sided sword...They fell in love with it and spent just to spend and did so unwisely... Pocketing the money is the best thing the mets can do right now...Pocket it and continue to build and spend when your close enough that a few top free agents will put you over the top

Yep, if I remember correctly the Phillies have double the payroll now that they had before they won a World Series. It's not really their spending ways that's been the issues, their big offensive stars have just succumbed to injury.

Pocketing the money until you're close to contention is a sound strategy, but the timing off it coinciding with the Madoff situation just made the entire thing a PR disaster.

metswon69
06-30-2012, 02:41 AM
I don't think Reyes will ever have another year like he did with the Mets last year.

His speed isn't nearly as big a game changer at least in the stolen base department as he is only on pace for 35 steals this year and only had 39 last year.

Unlike a lot of Met fans, I think Reyes is a lot like the 2007 and 2008 version of Reyes without the same power and speed now.

I could be wrong and this year could be an aberration but i think last year was a career year for him and he'll show more pedestrian numbers in Miami.

His BABIP over his whole career suggest he is closer to that version in 2007 and 2008 than he was to the 2011 version when it was .353 which was significantly higher than it's ever been.

Reyes is a .280 to .300 hitter depending on the given year, 10 to 12 home runs, 15 triples, with 30-35 steals a year, still a great player but not a .337 hitter like he was last year and he will certainly never steal 78 bases again like he did in 2007.

As for Tejada, i don't know if he could .310+ clip for the whole season but he can hit .280 to .290, play good defense, drive in 40+ runs (which i think he could have had 60-65+RBIS if he had stayed healthy the whole year) and be a very productive player for us.

CarniifeX
06-30-2012, 02:58 AM
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1736&position=SS

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=5519&position=2B/SS

Cromedome
06-30-2012, 03:29 AM
I made it clear loudly a year in advance that the mets needed to trade Reyes because he would not be worth the over payment...I got criticized by met fans about being a stupid phillies homer... I then Lol hard at what he got from the Marlins and thought the mets were far and away better off...I got laughed at again...Within 2 years they will trade him away...Mark it down

LOL @ you ! hhahahahahahahhah

Rush
06-30-2012, 03:51 AM
Well...according to fangraphs Reyes' WAR is at 1.5 while Tejada's is at 0.8.

StoicSentry
06-30-2012, 04:22 AM
Reyes is way, wayyyy better. The only things I like better about Tejada is that he's more consistent and he's still developing (though he'll never be as good as Reyes, obviously). Reyes is streaky.

Jeffy25
06-30-2012, 09:13 AM
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/tejadru01.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/reyesjo01.shtml

i dont really believe in these type of stats but i find it interesting since everyone killed the mets for not overpaying for reyes

Who in the hell killed the Mets for not signing Reyes?

I'm pretty sure the consensus on here was to let him walk.

MetsFanatic19
06-30-2012, 09:23 AM
ever since his best years in shea stadium, jose has really gotten worse and worse by year (excluding '11, of course). he goes into strectches of hitting way too many fly balls sometimes and if takes away his speed. when he hits the ball on the ground and on a line is when he's really dangerous, but he doesnt seem to do that as often

Cayman Fan
06-30-2012, 09:44 AM
He is a nice talent to have but would you honestly want him with that contract? Sorry but that is the deal breaker for me....The Mets should have traded him and got a ton. They need to stay away from the dumb contract and continue to rebuild...Their farm has become very good and they have some young pieces in the majors

Your absolutely correct...his contract is not what the Mets needed...not trading him was a huge mistake...the 2014 Mets would have looked alot better if they traded him and received the potential package in return...still do not understand the reason why...did not think Alderson had any intention of signing him in the offseason so why not trade him. It was clear he was going to have a huge drop off in the second half..he was not going to hit .400

kmo429
06-30-2012, 10:12 AM
You could also think of it as since he has played fewer games, it's a smaller sample size where he could just be playing really well right now :shrug:

WAR isnt really calculated like that. WAR is something that adds up over a season, that is why Tejada having a better war in half the games is extremely impressive.

kmo429
06-30-2012, 10:16 AM
Too bad BR's WAR is a crock of crap

Okay? Than look at Fangraphs. Jose has 1.2 in 342 pa's and Tejada has 1.0 in 147. TEjada acorrding to war is having a better season than Reyes really

Sick Of It All
06-30-2012, 10:18 AM
He is a nice talent to have but would you honestly want him with that contract? Sorry but that is the deal breaker for me....The Mets should have traded him and got a ton. They need to stay away from the dumb contract and continue to rebuild...Their farm has become very good and they have some young pieces in the majors

That contract is actually not bad at all and for one of the best SS in baseball I would take it. Even if he had signed for that deal the Mets would have been around 100-110 million, it would not have impede them from give Wright a new deal either who will make 15 million in 2013 and Bay's huge deal comes off the books and so does Johan's. Johan could be resigned, but at a much lesser price. They also had Pelffey's 6 million come off the books, so again signing Reyes would not had hurt them financially long term at all and he is still young enough where you should not worry about him falling off the face off the earth on offense and defense.

The farm has become very good, but it still lacks all star production type players.

MotownWebGuy
06-30-2012, 12:38 PM
Why would you just assume this? Is it impossible that I could read up on Baseball Reference's WAR and Fangraphs WAR systems and compare the two? Is it just impossible that I prefer fWAR because it uses UZR, and I'm not a fan of RF?

Either WAR (F and BR) is not a reflection of the player's value. WAR is an overrated way of judging players performance levels.

I would never trade for - or buy a player, based on WAR stats. I just don't understand why folks think WAR is so important.... F or BR.

Sure WAR can be used as a measuring stick with 4-5 other EQUAL measuring sticks in the player evaluation formula. Every time I see a new thread where two players are measured by WAR - well I just cringe at how many posters think WAR rates players the best.

I put WAR #4 on how to rate players. I would guess team execs feel similar.