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RedSoxtober
06-27-2012, 08:35 PM
While Clay Buchholz made a much-welcomed return to the Red Sox clubhouse before Wednesday's game against Toronto Blue Jays, Bobby Valentine also addressed some news about the progress of John Lackey, who recently began bullpen work after undergoing Tommy John surgery on his right elbow last November.

Valentine said he believed Lackey, who threw a light bullpen session Tuesday, was on schedule to throw before the end of the 2012 calendar year.

"He's in the weight room. He's working extremely hard, in his conditioning effort, in his rehabilitation effort,'' Valentine said. "I think the projections of him pitching before the year is out, meaning the calendar year, I think he's right on schedule. I don't know about the season. But he'll be pitching somewhere, I think, before the year's over."

Approached in the clubhouse before Wednesday's game, Lackey [whinnied, stomped on the ground with his front hoof three times, snorted, and]*, confirmed he had thrown off the mound three times already, including twice last week.

"It's been like 20 pitches so far, like 80 percent effort kind of deal,'' Lackey said. ''Long toss is the main thing for me right now, just trying to build my arm strength back up. I've got about two bullpens a week for about the next two months, so it's a long process.''

Lackey, though, viewed it as a positive step in his ongoing rehab.

"Yeah, there's been no setbacks, so it's been all positive,'' he said. "My arm feels great so it's definitely moving in the right direction. But it's going to be a while before I get into a game, for sure."Boston Globe

* Okay, I took a liberty or two with the quote.

BradytoGronkTD
06-27-2012, 08:51 PM
Yay?.....*sigh*

Crucis
06-27-2012, 09:03 PM
Without dissing Lackey, I'm not too fond of the idea of plugging a guy back into the rotation after such a long time late in the season. I guess that I'd feel more comfortable if such a guy had a spring training season to get up to speed, rather than a short rehab stint then getting tossed into the rotation potentially in the heat of a playoff race (fingers crossed on that one).

Nomar
06-27-2012, 09:19 PM
You forgot the part when Bob Ryan came from behind Lackey to ask him some questions and Lackey kicked him.

Deadspin got a video of the action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFIN9AzRo-w

Bo Sox Fan
06-27-2012, 10:15 PM
Atleast he's staying in shape, travelling with the team on a regular basis and trying his damndest to get back. Should be a solid #4-5 on the depth chart in 2013.

Bobby Jenks on the other hand can only be seen at your local pub with his new slow pitch team.

mooz
06-28-2012, 08:35 AM
$1000 to the person who keeps him from rejoining our rotation. I don't care how it happens. My only advice: Do not fight him in his natural habitat, the black lagoon. You will be at a severe disadvantage.

RedSoxtober
06-28-2012, 09:22 AM
Without dissing Lackey, I'm not too fond of the idea of plugging a guy back into the rotation after such a long time late in the season. I guess that I'd feel more comfortable if such a guy had a spring training season to get up to speed, rather than a short rehab stint then getting tossed into the rotation potentially in the heat of a playoff race (fingers crossed on that one).

I think BV's mention of pitching "somewhere" is a veiled way of saying he'll be doing minor league work somewhere. Contrary to most I actually think he could contribute something when he returns... in April 2013 or later.

Crucis
06-28-2012, 12:42 PM
I think BV's mention of pitching "somewhere" is a veiled way of saying he'll be doing minor league work somewhere. Contrary to most I actually think he could contribute something when he returns... in April 2013 or later.

Oh, I don't doubt that Lackey would have a minor league rehab stint, and probably as long as possible (same as DiceK). But after that's over, he'd have to return to the active roster, which I think is a bad idea, if it's too late in the season ... at least if the Sox are in contention. (If they're not, the issue is moot to me.) I'd just prefer that he not pitch on the major league club until he's gone thru a full spring training season with the club.

GrkGawdofWalkz
06-28-2012, 01:06 PM
Good, get back on the mound so you can be Burnett'd. No doubt that Cherington will have to be cradle robbed for one of Theo's mistakes. Either way, this team needs to be scrubbed out like a bad mold problem.

RedSoxtober
06-28-2012, 01:32 PM
Oh, I don't doubt that Lackey would have a minor league rehab stint, and probably as long as possible (same as DiceK). But after that's over, he'd have to return to the active roster, which I think is a bad idea, if it's too late in the season ... at least if the Sox are in contention. (If they're not, the issue is moot to me.) I'd just prefer that he not pitch on the major league club until he's gone thru a full spring training season with the club.

I agree and I think that's exactly what Valentine meant. With surgery in November he'd be pushing it just to get into any action this year with the possible exception of the Fall Instructional league.

Crucis
06-28-2012, 02:17 PM
I agree and I think that's exactly what Valentine meant. With surgery in November he'd be pushing it just to get into any action this year with the possible exception of the Fall Instructional league.

That's probably the best scenario. Pitch in the FIL and then pick it up again in spring training and start fresh with the big club, and don't risk the team's playoff chances (if there are any at the time, of course) with an arm just coming off of surgery.

goshhhjosh
06-28-2012, 06:03 PM
As much as I dislike Lackey I'd like to see him get on the mound and at least try to contribute. At least then it wouldn't be a total write-off/loss.

The off season after the 2014 season should be interesting. Bye bye Beckett, bye bye Lackey's huge contract (vesting option for 2015 for major league minimum), Lester will be a free agent (in 2013 he'll be making 250k), etc.

RedSoxtober
06-28-2012, 06:38 PM
As much as I dislike Lackey I'd like to see him get on the mound and at least try to contribute. At least then it wouldn't be a total write-off/loss.

The off season after the 2014 season should be interesting. Bye bye Beckett, bye bye Lackey's huge contract (vesting option for 2015 for major league minimum), Lester will be a free agent (in 2013 he'll be making 250k), etc.

Not quite. Lester is signed for $11.625M next year and the Sox have an option on 2014 at $13M (250K buyout). Seems pretty safe to assume at the moment that if he's here he's around for $13M. If not, the $250K buyout is paid with 2013 dollars.

The overall point is accurate though. The Red Sox triumvirate of Lester, Beckett, and Lackey are signed for big money through 2014 and that's it. Another ticking time bomb left by Theo. Neither Beckett nor Lackey return for similar deals after that. Lester will be a FA for his age 31 season and beyond. Same point that Lackey was signed. He'll have to do a lot more than he has from 2011-12 to earn a Beckett/Lackey type deal.

Going big in this years FA pitching pool makes lots of sense.

Crucis
06-28-2012, 06:55 PM
As much as I dislike Lackey I'd like to see him get on the mound and at least try to contribute. At least then it wouldn't be a total write-off/loss.

The off season after the 2014 season should be interesting. Bye bye Beckett, bye bye Lackey's huge contract (vesting option for 2015 for major league minimum), Lester will be a free agent (in 2013 he'll be making 250k), etc.

Sorry, I'd rather have many other peoples' contributions before his, at least as long as the Sox are still in contention. I worry that the only "contribution" that horseface will make is to the Sox falling OUT of contention, if he's allowed to pitch on the big club this season.

goshhhjosh
06-29-2012, 01:37 PM
Not quite. Lester is signed for $11.625M next year and the Sox have an option on 2014 at $13M (250K buyout). Seems pretty safe to assume at the moment that if he's here he's around for $13M. If not, the $250K buyout is paid with 2013 dollars.

The overall point is accurate though. The Red Sox triumvirate of Lester, Beckett, and Lackey are signed for big money through 2014 and that's it. Another ticking time bomb left by Theo. Neither Beckett nor Lackey return for similar deals after that. Lester will be a FA for his age 31 season and beyond. Same point that Lackey was signed. He'll have to do a lot more than he has from 2011-12 to earn a Beckett/Lackey type deal.

Going big in this years FA pitching pool makes lots of sense.

I must've misread Cots baseball contracts. I had the correct number, but maybe they forgot to label it as a buyout. Thanks for the correction. Anyways, yes, I do think the Red Sox need to acquire or buy some quality pitching.

I'm really disappointed with the way Lester has pitched. He's still relatively young, but seems to have hit a wall. He states that he isn't injured, however, he's not as dominant and at times gets hit pretty hard. It seems like ever since the tail end of last year he hasn't been the same. After one of his recent starts he expressed disgust and said he didn't know what else to do...keep working!


Sorry, I'd rather have many other peoples' contributions before his, at least as long as the Sox are still in contention. I worry that the only "contribution" that horseface will make is to the Sox falling OUT of contention, if he's allowed to pitch on the big club this season.

I get what you're saying and like I've mentioned bud, I don't like Lackey at all. I think he was a much better stunt double in Seabiscuit and Secratariat than a pitcher, however, the Red Sox are paying him around 15.75 million (IIRC) a year and he hasn't done a darn thing to help the MLB club. What I was getting at is instead of writing it off as a total loss (which it would be if he didn't pitch at all this year) at least give him a few outings to at least recoup a little bit of money. Obviously he'll never earn his keep, but the Red Sox need to get something out of it besides Popeyes and whinnying.

RedSoxtober
06-29-2012, 03:50 PM
I must've misread Cots baseball contracts. I had the correct number, but maybe they forgot to label it as a buyout. Thanks for the correction. Anyways, yes, I do think the Red Sox need to acquire or buy some quality pitching.

If you got the numbers from their payroll obligations spreadsheet that's probably the case. They may have a note about the salary structure next to the name. In any case you can scroll further down the page and check the specific details of Lester's deal for the breakdown. They also track past contracts which can be interesting for comparative purposes.

goshhhjosh
06-29-2012, 05:41 PM
If you got the numbers from their payroll obligations spreadsheet that's probably the case. They may have a note about the salary structure next to the name. In any case you can scroll further down the page and check the specific details of Lester's deal for the breakdown. They also track past contracts which can be interesting for comparative purposes.

Gotcha. Just looked and found the breakdown column. It seems like baseball-reference.com offers a better breakdown of the contract.

They also note that the option may be voided if Lester finishes 1st or 2nd in the Cy Young race (2009-2013.)

Don't think he'll be a Cy Young Award winner, which is a shame because a few analysts always peg him to win the award or be in the running.

Getting back to Lackey - looks like he'll be making the Major League minimum *IF* the Red Sox pick up his 2015 option...pretty much what he's been worth all along.

Crucis
06-30-2012, 02:07 AM
I get what you're saying and like I've mentioned bud, I don't like Lackey at all. I think he was a much better stunt double in Seabiscuit and Secratariat than a pitcher, however, the Red Sox are paying him around 15.75 million (IIRC) a year and he hasn't done a darn thing to help the MLB club. What I was getting at is instead of writing it off as a total loss (which it would be if he didn't pitch at all this year) at least give him a few outings to at least recoup a little bit of money. Obviously he'll never earn his keep, but the Red Sox need to get something out of it besides Popeyes and whinnying.


Actually, the Sox might be better off financially if he doesn't pitch at all, because they might recoup some or all of his salary from injury insurance.

Regardless, I don't think that the upside value of recouping some of his value by having him pitch a few outings is at all worth the downside of having CrappyLackey pitch if the Sox are still in contention. If I were the Sox, I'd care more about winning than recouping some value by having him pitch. Given how well the team's replacement pitchers have done of late, it's hard to imagine Lackey being any better, and very easy imagining him being utterly craptastic. :speechless:

Nomar
06-30-2012, 03:07 AM
Lackey was never worth this type of money to start with. Only one truly impressive season in his career.

Crucis
06-30-2012, 03:22 AM
I think that he's going to end up being the best paid starter #5 in baseball, cuz I don't see the Sox being able to move him until he rehabilitates his rep and/or the Sox are willing to sell him for pennies on the dollar. ;)

goshhhjosh
06-30-2012, 04:33 AM
Actually, the Sox might be better off financially if he doesn't pitch at all, because they might recoup some or all of his salary from injury insurance.

Regardless, I don't think that the upside value of recouping some of his value by having him pitch a few outings is at all worth the downside of having CrappyLackey pitch if the Sox are still in contention. If I were the Sox, I'd care more about winning than recouping some value by having him pitch. Given how well the team's replacement pitchers have done of late, it's hard to imagine Lackey being any better, and very easy imagining him being utterly craptastic. :speechless:

Well personally I'd like to see them give Lackey the Barbaro treatment...if you catch my drift.

Theo, the front office, whoever, really screwed up...Lackey, Cameron, Crawford, Jerks, etc. A crap load of money for a lot of injuries and ineffectiveness.

1_FrozenNetsFan
06-30-2012, 07:05 AM
Don't let him close to the big league club this season. The way Morales and Cook have pitched their last 5 outings we don't need another started trying to figure out how to pitch again...ala the Dice

Crucis
06-30-2012, 02:11 PM
Don't let him close to the big league club this season. The way Morales and Cook have pitched their last 5 outings we don't need another started trying to figure out how to pitch again...ala the Dice

I've gotta disagree with you comparing DiceK to Lackey potentially pitching on the big club this year. DiceK was activated so early in the season that he wouldn't be trying to "figure out how to pitch again" in critical late season games while the team may still be in contention. That's my gripe with having Lackey return late in the season.

If the team is out of contention, the issue is moot. But if the Sox are still in contention, I want Lackey nowhere near the active roster.

As for DiceK, I'm not as pessimistic as you. I think that he has a chance of being a solid #5 for the team, but I wouldn't give him too much leeway.

Nomar
06-30-2012, 04:21 PM
The big difference between Dice-K and Lackey is that Dice-K has already has a very good season in the AL East. In fact, his 2008 season was better than any season Lackey ever had and it was in a rougher division.

Dice K still has solid #5 potential and even up to a 3rd starter in a weak division like the NL Central/West for example.

1_FrozenNetsFan
06-30-2012, 07:44 PM
Perhaps I'm a bit harsh about the Dice but I'm a "what have you done for me lately" kinda guy and I compare what Dice is doing compared to Morales and Cook...there is no question who's gettin it done.

Crucis
06-30-2012, 10:27 PM
Perhaps I'm a bit harsh about the Dice but I'm a "what have you done for me lately" kinda guy and I compare what Dice is doing compared to Morales and Cook...there is no question who's gettin it done.

Well, in the "what have you done for me lately" category, didn't DiceK only give up 1 run in his last outing? I'm willing to be a little patient with DiceK, since he's just come off of TJ surgery.

1_FrozenNetsFan
07-01-2012, 07:07 AM
IP H R ER HR BB SO GB FB TBF Pit Dec. Rel. ERA
5.2 6 1 1 0 1 5 8 10 24 100
Sure one run...in a hundred pitches in less than 6 innings. Way to drop a load on our BP Dice. I want to see guys into if not out of the 7th inning. That way we don't need to use our closer for 2+ innings cuz what's left in the BP is tired from previous overwork.

Bo Sox Fan
07-01-2012, 11:13 AM
Dice K IMO would be a sick reliever. He could walk the first 2 than strike out the side.

Closer

MG956
07-01-2012, 12:56 PM
Valentine said he believed Lackey, who threw a light bullpen session Tuesday, was on schedule to throw before the end of the 2012 calendar year.

End of Calender year...why all the talk of him taking the mound this season, (which for us probably ends in 3 months).

RedSoxtober
07-02-2012, 09:21 AM
The big difference between Dice-K and Lackey is that Dice-K has already has a very good season in the AL East. In fact, his 2008 season was better than any season Lackey ever had and it was in a rougher division.

Dice K still has solid #5 potential and even up to a 3rd starter in a weak division like the NL Central/West for example.

This could start a crazy flame war. Honestly Dice-Ks 2008 was not all that great. He had a sparkling ERA but led the league in walks and managed only 167IP. He never should have been in CY talks.

I'd take Lackey's 2007 over that in a heartbeat. 3.01ERA (150ERA+) over 224IP, better whip, k/bb of 3.44... It's really no comparison.

SoxFan0407
07-02-2012, 12:18 PM
This could start a crazy flame war. Honestly Dice-Ks 2008 was not all that great. He had a sparkling ERA but led the league in walks and managed only 167IP. He never should have been in CY talks.

I'd take Lackey's 2007 over that in a heartbeat. 3.01ERA (150ERA+) over 224IP, better whip, k/bb of 3.44... It's really no comparison.

and Lackey supposedly hasn't thrown a single healthy pitch for the Red Sox yet...I for one am looking forward to his return.

RedSoxtober
07-02-2012, 03:24 PM
and Lackey supposedly hasn't thrown a single healthy pitch for the Red Sox yet...I for one am looking forward to his return.

I personally agree with that. As frustrating as the deal has been I still think he might have something to offer. I don't think he's been healthy with the Sox and a rebuilt elbow could help a great deal. If nothing else he may have been compensating for it knowing what the medicals revealed when he signed.

At any rate, the controversy I was referring to was the portrayal of Dice-K's 2008 season. Some view it as fantastic but those are largely folks who view his W-L record as the first line of evaluation. His ERA was smoke and mirrors IMO. I just hope that he can get three more good starts in between now and 7/20 so he can find a new home.

1_FrozenNetsFan
07-03-2012, 01:21 AM
^^^Well tonight sure wasn't one of those "good starts". If they even let him start another game that will be ONE TOO MANY imo.

goshhhjosh
07-03-2012, 08:47 AM
^^^Well tonight sure wasn't one of those "good starts". If they even let him start another game that will be ONE TOO MANY imo.

He was referring to the fact that he wanted Dice-K to pitch well to build up his trade stock.

He won't be traded now as he'll more than likely go on the DL with a bad trap. I view him as a bust personally.

RedSoxtober
07-03-2012, 10:48 AM
^^^Well tonight sure wasn't one of those "good starts". If they even let him start another game that will be ONE TOO MANY imo.

Yes, it was terrible. FWIW he pitched with a sore neck muscle (one with which he had an issue earlier). That's not to excuse his performance but to note that the BV at least knew about it and permitted it.

Nice of Dice-K to help solve the SP dilemma.

goshhhjosh
07-03-2012, 12:16 PM
Yes, it was terrible. FWIW he pitched with a sore neck muscle (one with which he had an issue earlier). That's not to excuse his performance but to note that the BV at least knew about it and permitted it.

Nice of Dice-K to help solve the SP dilemma.

I don't like this at all. Yeah let's just let an injured pitcher go out there and see what happens...great idea.

RedSoxtober
07-05-2012, 10:08 AM
I don't like this at all. Yeah let's just let an injured pitcher go out there and see what happens...great idea.

Meh, we all knew that Dice-K was a pain in the neck. I guess this was Valentine's way of poetic justice.