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View Full Version : Will Josh Hamilton go down as the best OF of his era?



theguruisback3
06-26-2012, 12:10 AM
Obviously he's a great player, maybe the best in baseball.

Does he get the nod as best outfielder of his era?

His main competition is Braun & Holliday.

Jeffy25
06-26-2012, 12:15 AM
uhhhh no

BBB
06-26-2012, 12:15 AM
lol what?

Sick Of It All
06-26-2012, 12:16 AM
Beltran

Jeffy25
06-26-2012, 12:21 AM
I would say our latest baseball ERA is 2006-present based on how baseball changed from the Long Ball Era in about 05. So I will use 2006 to present as the barometer.


Best outfielder since 2006 right now is Matt Holliday. Ryan Braun came up in 07 and Beltran and Granderson have been great since then as well, and you could probably add Ichiro into that conversation.

Hamilton is possibly in the discussion if he continues his current pace for.....another 5-6 years. And I mean his 2012 pace, which he won't do.

Here are your top hitters since 2006 of all outfielders

Manny Ramirez - .405 wOBA, 147 wRC+ 2500 PA
Ryan Braun - .404 wOBA, 151 wRC+ 3475 PA
Matt Holliday - .404 wOBA, 146 wRC+ 4175 PA
Josh Hamilton - .391 wOBA, 138 wRC+ 2802 PA

A typical baseball era (we are currently in the 8th era since 1876) typically lasts a little over a decade. So let's say 2006-2018.

I am willing to bet the best outfielder of this era is either still under 1000 PA (Trout, Harper possibly) or hasn't been called up yet....or it's going to be Braun or Holliday and they age well.

WadeKobe
06-26-2012, 12:34 AM
Do i think he's the most talented of his era? Yes, probably so.

The best? No. That will be Braun, unless Trout or Harper have something to say about it.

Jeffy25
06-26-2012, 12:42 AM
the more I look at this, the more Matt Holliday sounds like the right guy (depending when you define 'this era')

Watch out though, I always defend Holliday with lot's and lot's of numbers :)

theguruisback3
06-26-2012, 12:49 AM
I would say our latest baseball ERA is 2006-present based on how baseball changed from the Long Ball Era in about 05. So I will use 2006 to present as the barometer.


Best outfielder since 2006 right now is Matt Holliday. Ryan Braun came up in 07 and Beltran and Granderson have been great since then as well, and you could probably add Ichiro into that conversation.

Hamilton is possibly in the discussion if he continues his current pace for.....another 5-6 years. And I mean his 2012 pace, which he won't do.

Here are your top hitters since 2006 of all outfielders

Manny Ramirez - .405 wOBA, 147 wRC+ 2500 PA
Ryan Braun - .404 wOBA, 151 wRC+ 3475 PA
Matt Holliday - .404 wOBA, 146 wRC+ 4175 PA
Josh Hamilton - .391 wOBA, 138 wRC+ 2802 PA

A typical baseball era (we are currently in the 8th era since 1876) typically lasts a little over a decade. So let's say 2006-2018.

I am willing to bet the best outfielder of this era is either still under 1000 PA (Trout, Harper possibly) or hasn't been called up yet....or it's going to be Braun or Holliday and they age well.

Josh Hamilton's era begins in 2008, when he firmly arrived and played his first full season. For example, I don't think of Manny when I think of the Hamilton era. I bet you only made it 2006 because that's when Matt broke out into when we know of him now.

Regardless,

Josh Hamilton is a heavy favorite to get his 2nd MVP trophy this year. You know how many other OF'ers have done that? Only Bonds & Yount have done it in in like the last 45 years.

Hamilton also seems like a better player in his prime. Like his best is better than anyone else. That means something.

Also, Harper & Trout are the next era of outfielders. You can't group a 19 and 20 year old in the same era as a 28-31-32 year old.

sf-fanatic
06-26-2012, 12:56 AM
Beltran would be my choice

WadeKobe
06-26-2012, 01:07 AM
the more I look at this, the more Matt Holliday sounds like the right guy (depending when you define 'this era')

Watch out though, I always defend Holliday with lot's and lot's of numbers :)

You might be right. Holliday has the fielding that Braun doesn't bring to the table.

Jeffy25
06-26-2012, 01:09 AM
Josh Hamilton's era begins in 2008, when he firmly arrived and played his first full season. For example, I don't think of Manny when I think of the Hamilton era. I bet you only made it 2006 because that's when Matt broke out into when we know of him now.
No, I'm not that petty

http://www.netshrine.com/era.html

Because that's when the Long Ball Era appeared to be over.

Josh Hamilton only has 2800 PA in his career. Even if we just go back to 2008.

Ryan Braun - 26.3 fWAR
Matt Holliday - 26.1 fWAR
Ben Zobrist - 22.6 fWAR
Josh Hamilton - 21.6 fWAR
Matt Kemp - 20.1 fWAR

Ryan Braun - .405 wOBA, 151 wRC+
Matt Holliday - .397 wOBA, 146 wRC+
Josh Hamilton - .391 wOBA, 139 wRC+

(you could probably add Bautista to this list)



Regardless,

Josh Hamilton is a heavy favorite to get his 2nd MVP trophy this year. You know how many other OF'ers have done that? Only Bonds & Yount have done it in in like the last 45 years.
And Juan Gonzalez and Dale Murphy


And we have more than 3 months left for him to still earn that MVP.



Hamilton also seems like a better player in his prime. Like his best is better than anyone else. That means something.
Except it isn't. He hasn't been as good as Braun or Holliday. And you could extend the prime and give Beltran his best years, same with Ichiro and arguably other people.



Also, Harper & Trout are the next era of outfielders. You can't group a 19 and 20 year old in the same era as a 28-31-32 year old.

Then if you want to make the argument for Hamilton, you need to define the era. But you can't dismiss someone who is actively playing and only count Hamilton's era a couple of years. Which he hasn't even been the best outfielder for those couple of years.

So what's the era? 2008 to 2012? Because 5 seasons isn't an era, and Hamilton isn't the best outfielder of those 5 seasons. If the era is more than a decade and goes from 08 until near 2020? You better believe Trout and Harper belong to be included, and Hamilton will be 40 when that era ends.

Or the era is just now ending and it began when?

Because an era isn't 2008-2012. You can't have the era begin when Hamilton started, and not include players that came up just a couple of seasons after he did. Or say the era started conveniently when he came up and ignore every player that was great prior to him coming up.

beldugo
06-26-2012, 01:11 AM
I think this honor goes to Ryan Braun, this guy just don't stop hitting.

WadeKobe
06-26-2012, 01:14 AM
Also, Harper & Trout are the next era of outfielders. You can't group a 19 and 20 year old in the same era as a 28-31-32 year old.

This is completely arbitrary and makes no sense. What if, by the time Holiday retires, those two have already been better in their time than Hamilton was during the whole "era"? What then?

Also, it isn't their fault that Hamilton is old for a ball-player and they're really young. That makes no sense to penalize them for being better than him at a younger age.

giants73756
06-26-2012, 01:29 AM
I think this honor goes to Ryan Braun, this guy just don't stop hitting.

Best outfielder who has tested positive for PEDs, yes.

jawjr13
06-26-2012, 01:33 AM
Josh Hamilton's era begins in 2008, when he firmly arrived and played his first full season. For example, I don't think of Manny when I think of the Hamilton era. I bet you only made it 2006 because that's when Matt broke out into when we know of him now.

Regardless,

Josh Hamilton is a heavy favorite to get his 2nd MVP trophy this year. You know how many other OF'ers have done that? Only Bonds & Yount have done it in in like the last 45 years.

Hamilton also seems like a better player in his prime. Like his best is better than anyone else. That means something.

Also, Harper & Trout are the next era of outfielders. You can't group a 19 and 20 year old in the same era as a 28-31-32 year old.

An era doesn't start around a player, players play during an era. And did you not read the valid reasoning that Jeffy gave as to why he said 2006? And then you try to make the era start in 2008 only because that's when Hamilton came up? As of right now I would doubt that he is the best outfielder of the era that he played in.

WadeKobe
06-26-2012, 01:48 AM
Best outfielder who has tested positive for PEDs, yes.

Yea... I guess he's still using now, right? :rolleyes:

Lakers + Giants
06-26-2012, 01:51 AM
IMO it's gonna end up being Stanton.

Jeffy25
06-26-2012, 01:58 AM
Dupe not a good dupe

giants73756
06-26-2012, 02:13 AM
Yea... I guess he's still using now, right? :rolleyes:

Why do people think muscles suddenly disappear once you go off the drugs?

WadeKobe
06-26-2012, 02:16 AM
Why do people think muscles suddenly disappear once you go off the drugs?

Actually, it isn't that they disappear. It is that your body is not able to produce enough testosterone to maintain the acquired muscle and strength. You're bound to start losing, even if slightly and over time.

LASportsFan1996
06-26-2012, 02:44 AM
Matt.Kemp Doe :D

LASportsFan1996
06-26-2012, 02:44 AM
IMO it's gonna end up being Stanton.

#ManCrush

WadeKobe
06-26-2012, 03:09 AM
Matt.Kemp Doe :D

He's my favorite player in the MLB, but no way. Too many mediocre years up front.

LASportsFan1996
06-26-2012, 03:12 AM
He's my favorite player in the MLB, but no way. Too many mediocre years up front.

Cool.
And Kemp Is The Best Player Of All Time :D 100% On The 1st Ballet

******2017
06-26-2012, 03:39 AM
You can throw all the barbs you want at Braun for the mess in the offseason but he's been an amazing hitter his whole career and has continued it. I doubt a fall off happens in the next 4 or 5 years. He's got a great work ethic and is still hitting well in a dead & very streaky lineup this year. I completely expected the numbers to fall off a bit with Ramirez hitting behind him but that hasn't been the case at all.

ChongInc.
06-26-2012, 03:49 AM
Vernon Wells

WadeKobe
06-26-2012, 03:54 AM
Vernon Wells

Not even remotely close.

******2017
06-26-2012, 03:55 AM
That post screamed sarcasm

LASportsFan1996
06-26-2012, 04:04 AM
That post screamed sarcasm

Clearly.

Uncle Sam
06-26-2012, 04:56 AM
True baseball fans will view Hamilton as the most talented outfielder of this era, HOWEVER, his career has been detoured by a series of injurys with the rangers as well as the fact that he didnt even break into the majors until 2007 with the reds. He just won't accumulate the neccesary stats to be considered the best of his era, nor will he have as much respect as people like Matt Holliday without winning a championship.

theslick1
06-26-2012, 12:55 PM
Cool.
And Kemp Is The Best Player Of All Time :D 100% On The 1st Ballet

He's a dancer?

******2017
06-26-2012, 12:59 PM
He's a dancer?
Where do you think the hamstring issue came from? He's gonna be starring in The Batcracker on Broadway this October.

Pinstripe pride
06-26-2012, 01:01 PM
Nicholas Thompson Swisher

natelpete
06-26-2012, 04:35 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again. We need a minimum post limit for people to make threads. That's all.

VRP723
06-26-2012, 04:39 PM
uhhhh no


He's a dancer?

These two posts made me laugh

waveycrockett
06-26-2012, 04:45 PM
MATT Kemp? Ryan Braun?

BrianWestKins
06-26-2012, 04:53 PM
Braun and it's not even close

KingPosey
06-26-2012, 04:54 PM
He is the most explosive, and can dominate hard for short runs, dominate really hard like nobody else in the game. He disappears though, and tends to fade or get injured. Remember when he had all those "amazing" rbis before the break and was just killing everyone? Then he really didnt do **** the whole 2nd half the season?

waveycrockett
06-26-2012, 04:56 PM
Braun and it's not even close

I think Kemp is going to make it close.

Jeffy25
06-27-2012, 01:13 AM
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/josh-hamilton-needs-to-start-making-adjustments/

Hamilton might be looking at a poor second half if he doesn't make this adjustment.

If a place like Fangraphs can figure it out, you know pitching coaches can figure it out.

But, part of being a big leaguer means you have to do these adjustments.

Jeffy25
06-29-2012, 03:10 AM
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/josh-hamiltons-weakness-on-full-display/

Chucky Woods
06-29-2012, 03:40 PM
Best outfielder who has tested positive for PEDs, yes.How does the crow taste?

NY_Heartbreak
06-29-2012, 03:45 PM
Beltran

This.

CQSox305
06-29-2012, 04:44 PM
The best all around OF that not many casual baseball fans talk about is Matt Holliday. If he remains productive throughout his contract, than that will be over 10 great seasons for him. My two picks would be Holliday and Beltran. This is assuming we are talking about the era from 2006-2018.

Chucky Woods
06-29-2012, 04:53 PM
In this era so far its Braun by a lot, but it very well could be Trout or Harper should they continue to improve.

Jeffy25
06-29-2012, 05:34 PM
In this era so far its Braun by a lot, but it very well could be Trout or Harper should they continue to improve.

Braun by a lot huh?

Rentzias
07-02-2012, 01:54 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/the_bonus/06/29/josh-hamilton-tim-crothers/index.html#ixzz1zUGd3nqU-

Pretty crazy. I didn't even know 20-10 vision existed.

Jeffy25
07-02-2012, 01:59 PM
I had 20-15 when I was a teenager :shrug:

Jeffy25
07-02-2012, 02:01 PM
Merged the Josh Hamilton threads, trying to keep the forum limited to one thread per ball player if possible.

Rentzias
07-02-2012, 03:06 PM
I had 20-15 when I was a teenager :shrug:
And I've needed glasses/contacts since I was a teenager, so I've only known that I wasn't 20/20.

Either way, what a beast.

rkelly7
07-02-2012, 03:31 PM
I doubt it. He ahs had great years, but I think consistency prevails. So I think it will be Braun or someone like that.

******2017
07-02-2012, 05:12 PM
I have 20/15 with my contacts

blue bleeder09
07-02-2012, 05:58 PM
Braun and it's not even closebraun = bonds

rkelly7
07-02-2012, 06:07 PM
braun = bonds

whoa whoa whoa, you think braun is going to break ruths hr record?!?! You nuts brah?

******2017
07-02-2012, 06:13 PM
whoa whoa whoa, you think braun is going to break ruths hr record?!?! You nuts brah?
:laugh2:

KingPosey
07-03-2012, 06:00 AM
I love when Jeffy talks about himself as a youth. He was an absurdly incredible humanbeing till he was 22.

tests
07-05-2012, 10:33 PM
i havent watched josh hamilton all too much throughout the years. Is his prime really one of the bests of all time?