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View Full Version : Reflecting on D-Roses' MVP



thekmp211
06-24-2012, 03:14 PM
sorry if this has been made into a thread before.

also sorry for the trolls and fools who will take this the wrong way.

shout to the haters.

did rose deserve the MVP he got in 2011? i say NO WAY. and i think rose is a top 10 player.

simply put, lebron james, kevin durant and dirk nowitzki for starters were more deserving for a variety of reasons that in my mind became crystal clear as we look back on this past season.

what do you guys think?

D12 fan
06-24-2012, 03:16 PM
Yeah,Rose didn't deserve it.

To me Dwight got robbed it was his year,but voters got caught up with Rose being a breakout player.

NYtilIdie
06-24-2012, 03:17 PM
I think it should've went to Howard, he was dominating that year putting up Shaq-esque numbers.

StarvingKnick22
06-24-2012, 03:17 PM
without him, his teamates still did great. so no he shouldnt have won

Chacarron
06-24-2012, 03:18 PM
There were more deserving players than Rose, let's just put it that way.

nicegoing
06-24-2012, 03:18 PM
James or Howard should have gotten it, but Rose had a phenomenal year, and I can see how he won.

thekmp211
06-24-2012, 03:20 PM
I think it should've went to Howard, he was dominating that year putting up Shaq-esque numbers.

he was my pick at the time, forgot about him for some reason prob cause he was outed as a huge tool this year.

but yeah also more deserving in my mind.

Cano4prez
06-24-2012, 03:24 PM
There were more deserving players than Rose, let's just put it that way.

This

JordansBulls
06-24-2012, 03:24 PM
Yes he deserved it. Led team to the best record and was the only allstar on his team. And if you say because he lost well Dwight lost in round 1 with HCA and Lebron lost with HCA with 2 other allstars to a team with 1 allstar.

UPRock
06-24-2012, 03:25 PM
Howard.

nicegoing
06-24-2012, 03:26 PM
Yes he deserved it. Led team to the best record and was the only allstar on his team. And if you say because he lost well Dwight lost in round 1 with HCA and Lebron lost with HCA with 2 other allstars to a team with 1 allstar.

That's all well and good, but the MVP award is a regular season award. You have a point with your first two sentences, but playoffs aren't taken into consideration since voting is done ahead of time .

D12 fan
06-24-2012, 03:27 PM
Yes he deserved it. Led team to the best record and was the only allstar on his team. And if you say because he lost well Dwight lost in round 1 with HCA and Lebron lost with HCA with 2 other allstars to a team with 1 allstar.

MVP is a regular season award.

Ezio
06-24-2012, 03:34 PM
MVP is a regular season award.

And there you have it. He lead a .500 team to 60+ wins while teammates went down.

nitric
06-24-2012, 03:35 PM
MVP is a regular season award.

Bulls were projected to be a 4-5 seed team. Noah missed half the season, Boozer missed half the season. Bulls won 60+ games and were the #1 overall seed. How is that NOT MVP worthy? :confused:
Rose also put up numbers that season that only Jordan, Lebron and Oscar put up. Let's not pretend he had some mediocre season or something. He was also one of the most clutch players of the season as well.
Also, sweeping Miami (Projected to win 70 games by some "analysts) helped a bit as well.

Meaze_Gibson
06-24-2012, 03:35 PM
IMO he should have won. Both Boozer (59 games, his second option) and Noah (48 games, at time top 5 center) were out for substantial time during that season. He lead them still to best record in NBA while beating the top teams in the league, usually, without one of his important pieces.
All in all, he played great, great record against top teams, and led team to best record even when his sidekicks were out. MVP was worthy imo

5ass
06-24-2012, 03:36 PM
Dwight should've won MVP, I said it then back in 2011 when every1 disagreed with me because they didnt want to look like "haters", but atleast people are beginning to come around.

northsider
06-24-2012, 03:39 PM
Holy christ this is thread number 500000 about this topic.

This generates the same responses from the same haters and lovers.

Rose was the star on the best team in the that with him were championship caliber however without him they are a middle seed team that would have absolutely NO SHOT at winning a championship or at least contending for one seriously.

He was the game breaker for that team on tons of occasions and more times then not had to play hero late in games and take over.

He was very deserving of his MVP award. Not to say Dwight wasn't either but, those of you that act like it was robbery need to get over it. Rose was also a other worldly leader for that team that year.

It makes perfect sense to me.

nitric
06-24-2012, 03:40 PM
Dwight should've won MVP, I said it then back in 2011 when every1 disagreed with me because they didnt want to look like "haters", but atleast people are beginning to come around.

Yeah I mean after the Bulls lose 1-4 to an 8th seed, it just helps the case against Rose even more.

justinnum1
06-24-2012, 03:40 PM
Who gives a ****

5ass
06-24-2012, 03:41 PM
Bulls were projected to be a 4-5 seed team. Noah missed half the season, Boozer missed half the season. Bulls won 60+ games and were the #1 overall seed. How is that NOT MVP worthy? :confused:
Rose also put up numbers that season that only Jordan, Lebron and Oscar put up. Let's not pretend he had some mediocre season or something. He was also one of the most clutch players of the season as well.
Also, sweeping Miami (Projected to win 70 games by some "analysts) helped a bit as well.

yes, lets act like Rose was the one who carried the whole weight on his shoulders and not that Asik, Gibson, and Thomas stepped up BIG TIME.

northsider
06-24-2012, 03:43 PM
yes, lets act like Rose was the one who carried the whole weight on his shoulders and not that Asik, Gibson, and Thomas stepped up BIG TIME.

Yet if this thread was talking about how good those guys were most of you guys would be calling them okay role players. Yet when it is needed to strenthgne an argument then all of a sudden Rose's cast is all amazing players starters through the bench.

nitric
06-24-2012, 03:44 PM
yes, lets act like Rose was the one who carried the whole weight on his shoulders and not that Asik, Gibson, and Thomas stepped up BIG TIME.

Pretty sure Rose carried the team to the most 4th quarter comebacks in the NBA that season :confused:

You think a trio of Asik, Gibson and Thomas has the same impact of Rose? Lol

5ass
06-24-2012, 03:44 PM
Yeah I mean after the Bulls lose 1-4 to an 8th seed, it just helps the case against Rose even more.

No, Deng and Noah got injured, if they didnt they would've made it to the ECF. Hell almost every Bulls fan agrees with this. They were all so confident they were going to face Miami even after Rose went down.

Do u guys have selective memory?

D-Leethal
06-24-2012, 03:44 PM
Judging by the way they hand out the award it made sense. Best player on the team with best record in the league, also being the 'surprise team' had a lot to do with it.

LeBron wasn't getting it his first year after the decision, OKC wasn't good enough yet for KD to get it, Dirk did what Dirk has done for 12 years and wasn't a 'sexy pick', Spurs didn't have that '1 guy' who was a top 5 player, Orlando wasn't really good enough and Dwight didn't really get much better than he was in the past so it would be tough to give him MVP for playing like hes played his whole career and not much more.

Rose was the right pick but in reality was not a top 3 player last year and maybe not even top 5.

Also, you can't give it to LeBron every year just like you couldn't give it to MJ every year. Just how it works.

northsider
06-24-2012, 03:44 PM
Who gives a ****

This.

Sadly I think this thread will be brought up at least once every 3 months due to some peoples obsession. It really wasn't as big a robbery as some of the haters make it out to be.

5ass
06-24-2012, 03:46 PM
Yet if this thread was talking about how good those guys were most of you guys would be calling them okay role players. Yet when it is needed to strenthgne an argument then all of a sudden Rose's cast is all amazing players starters through the bench.

who is u guys? dont generalize me with the whole of PSD lol. There are like a million users on this site and ur treating them as one?

The fact is that they were ready to step in (largely thanks to Thib for keeping them well prepared and ready to perform their roles). Did Rose carry their defense? Nope.

JasonJohnHorn
06-24-2012, 03:46 PM
I think we will be able to answer that questions after the upcoming season when Rose isn't actually playing for them. We'll see how the team fairs without him.

But I say yes. He deserved it. He improved his play, and his team improved with that. The posted the best record in the league, he was the best player on the best team and I very highly doubt that the Bulls would have been anywhere near 60 wins that season if they had a guy like Mo Williams running the point that season.

He deserved it, but there were other players who were equally deserving.

SeoulBeatz
06-24-2012, 03:47 PM
I'm not normally one to side with Bulls fans, but Rose was definitely the MVP that year. If it's a regular season award, he led his team to the most wins in the league while having teammates go down with injuries.

And to those who said the Bulls were fine without him this year, they lost to my Sixers in 7 games w/o Rose. They would have handily won that series had Rose been 100%.

So that whole "the Bulls can win without Rose" point is moot as far as I see it. And I have absolutely no reason to defend the Bulls.

5ass
06-24-2012, 03:48 PM
Pretty sure Rose carried the team to the most 4th quarter comebacks in the NBA that season :confused:

You think a trio of Asik, Gibson and Thomas has the same impact of Rose? Lol

please stop playing dumb. How exactly did you conclude this from my post? I said they were able to replace Boozers and Noah's impact.

northsider
06-24-2012, 03:52 PM
who is u guys? dont generalize me with the whole of PSD lol. There are like a million users on this site and ur treating them as one?

The fact is that they were ready to step in (largely thanks to Thib for keeping them well prepared and ready to perform their roles). Did Rose carry their defense? Nope.

Sorry for lumping but, yes for the most part a Rose thread leads to the same group of guys thus why the generalizing. There aren't a million users in the NBA forum however there are thousands of ignorant ones.

Rose certainly didn't drag their defense down either. Let alone his offensive out put for a team that lacks a scorer of his caliber weighs a ton. His abilities late in games that year was phenomenal whether the adv. stats agree with it or not. He was the closer for that team for a reason. Our defense was great no doubt however more times then not we had close games closing out and it came down to a shoot out and he practically showed up every time. It's just not the sort of robbery that people cry about. I am just shocked this comes up once a month.

bbcmillionaire
06-24-2012, 03:56 PM
Lol sooo it seems everytime us bulls fans are just chilling and waiting for our offseason moves, a rose or what if the bulls.... Thread pops up. AND IT WASN'T STARTED BY A BULLS FAN. Lol I guess if we respond to this we are the worst homers on psd,right?

Dwight did what was expected of him, rose said at the beginning of the year' "why can't I be the MVP?". Everyone laughed at him and mocked him. He clearly showed he was the MVP by improving his game drastically and made a projected 4th overall team into a number one regular season record. With a injury depleted team. While Dwight's team was ranked what #4? He earned that youngest MVP award and no it wasn't a robbery. Get over it and stop being so obsessed with rose

northsider
06-24-2012, 03:59 PM
I also think people really weren't ready for just how good he would be that year. Before that most weren't even ready to put him anywhere near a top 10 and he pretty much shut down that notion that he at least deserved to be in consideration or as most would put him in there.

IDK I just don't think it's worth how much people constantly cry over it. It's a subjective award and people get so butt hurt over it which is something I don't quite understand.

5ass
06-24-2012, 04:03 PM
Sorry for lumping but, yes for the most part a Rose thread leads to the same group of guys thus why the generalizing. There aren't a million users in the NBA forum however there are thousands of ignorant ones.

Rose certainly didn't drag their defense down either. Let alone his offensive out put for a team that lacks a scorer of his caliber weighs a ton. His abilities late in games that year was phenomenal whether the adv. stats agree with it or not. He was the closer for that team for a reason. Our defense was great no doubt however more times then not we had close games closing out and it came down to a shoot out and he practically showed up every time. It's just not the sort of robbery that people cry about. I am just shocked this comes up once a month.

I understand why that would get annoying, but for me dwight and LBJ impacts were on another level. Unfortunately when i disagreed back then i was just a "hater", but as time went by more people began to see the truth. Im not trying to massage my ego or whatever, im just saying.

5ass
06-24-2012, 04:05 PM
Lol sooo it seems everytime us bulls fans are just chilling and waiting for our offseason moves, a rose or what if the bulls.... Thread pops up. AND IT WASN'T STARTED BY A BULLS FAN. Lol I guess if we respond to this we are the worst homers on psd,right?

Dwight did what was expected of him, rose said at the beginning of the year' "why can't I be the MVP?". Everyone laughed at him and mocked him. He clearly showed he was the MVP by improving his game drastically and made a projected 4th overall team into a number one regular season record. With a injury depleted team. While Dwight's team was ranked what #4? He earned that youngest MVP award and no it wasn't a robbery. Get over it and stop being so obsessed with rose


I also think people really weren't ready for just how good he would be that year. Before that most weren't even ready to put him anywhere near a top 10 and he pretty much shut down that notion that he at least deserved to be in consideration or as most would put him in there.

IDK I just don't think it's worth how much people constantly cry over it. It's a subjective award and people get so butt hurt over it which is something I don't quite understand.

This is why I believe Rose won MVP, because it made for a good story. I'll give him credit for being an elite player that season, but do I believe he was the MVP? no.

smiddy012
06-24-2012, 04:07 PM
You really had to watch Rose game after game to appreciate his value to the Bulls, he stepped it up in the fourth quarter on a regular basis. He was the most clutch player during the regular season he won MVP, period.

All that said, the ONLY argument that can be made against Rose for MVP is DH. No other player has a solid argument for MVP over DRose that season, it's really that simple to those who avidly followed the NBA and DRose that season.

thekmp211
06-24-2012, 04:08 PM
Yeah I mean after the Bulls lose 1-4 to an 8th seed, it just helps the case against Rose even more.


Who gives a ****

i'm not talking about the playoffs. that showed how important rose is to the team.

the fact is when HE went down, just as boozer deng and noah did in the season before, the team didn't miss a beat in the REGULAR season.

i think thibs is the one gets screwed out of a lot of credit. prob should have been COTY this year again as well.

Chronz
06-24-2012, 04:09 PM
Dwight and Dirk had stronger cases, but their teams lost a few more games and Rose was rewarded for being the hot new story.

Him, AI, and Nash stole mvps that belonged to dominant bigmen. Sure they were worthy but not the most worthy

northsider
06-24-2012, 04:09 PM
I understand why that would get annoying, but for me dwight and LBJ impacts were on another level. Unfortunately when i disagreed back then i was just a "hater", but as time went by more people began to see the truth. Im not trying to massage my ego or whatever, im just saying.

I actually saw a ton of people arguing for both Lebron and Dwight immediatly and before the award was even given out.

However I personally whole heartily disagree that there impacts were on a completely different level as Rose's to that Bulls defensive orientated team. He himself gave a team with Bogans playing the 2 an offensive balance that could run with any squad. His willingness to pretty much do and say whatever he was told as well as just how much of a leader he was on that team it just made sense. He also didn't have a shabby season either. It may have not been statistically what Dwight and Lebron did however I felt his impact wasn't completely as measurable. It is impossible to say his impact to those that don't want to believe it but, I felt he gave a 5-8 seed team the confidence to play like a 1 seed and I felt it showed this year as well. Now as soon as it was all but certain the true leader of that team wasn't going to be there to save them then you seen the wheels fall off of that team

It was a completely different ball game once he was gone and I would imagine without him this year you will see just how much of an impact he actually made.

Baller1
06-24-2012, 04:09 PM
This.

Sadly I think this thread will be brought up at least once every 3 months due to some peoples obsession. It really wasn't as big a robbery as some of the haters make it out to be.

Ehhh, I really do think it was a pretty big deal. I mean, I could really care less... Just my two cents though. Dwight really should've gotten it.

thekmp211
06-24-2012, 04:12 PM
i think it's worth revisiting now, not every week, seeing as the season just ended and we can kind of step back and think about this stuff.

haters gon hate, players gon play.

northsider
06-24-2012, 04:12 PM
Dwight and Dirk had stronger cases, but their teams lost a few more games and Rose was rewarded for being the hot new story.

Him, AI, and Nash stole mvps that belonged to dominant bigmen. Sure they were worthy but not the most worthy

At least you admit that much cause that is the only thing that bothers me. To act like Rose wasn't worthy of that award is ignorant IMO. Onc could say as good as Dwight was he was also no where the leader that Rose is and has been for the Bulls. I can't actually prove that but, it wouldn't shock me and especially after Dwights antics this year. To me stuff like that and just how coachable Rose was has to be taking into consideration.

I know I know I am grasping at straws but, I just feel like anyone who wasn't convinced isn't going to become convinced no matter the argument.

northsider
06-24-2012, 04:14 PM
Ehhh, I really do think it was a pretty big deal. I mean, I could really care less... Just my two cents though. Dwight really should've gotten it.

I just don't see personally and I am sure most of it has to do with my progressive over protectiveness of Rose due to the amount of unwarranted hate he gets. I refuse to believe it was as much of a robbery as people make it out to be.

Canterbury
06-24-2012, 04:16 PM
without him, his teamates still did great. so no he shouldnt have won The Bulls did great in his absence in 2012. There's no telling how the team would performed if Rose was out as often during 2011, who had an injured Boozer/Noah for much of the year, a new head coach, and 9 new players on the roster.

D12 fan
06-24-2012, 04:18 PM
This thread is nothing but Chicago fans saying Drose deserved it,and non Bulls fans saying that Dwight should have won it.

So the correct answer is Dwight should have been MVP that year,not Drose.

I honestly think the only reason Dwight didn't get it was because he won DPOY,the NBA didn't want him to be MVP and DPOY.

5ass
06-24-2012, 04:18 PM
I actually saw a ton of people arguing for both Lebron and Dwight immediatly and before the award was even given out.

However I personally whole heartily disagree that there impacts were on a completely different level as Rose's to that Bulls defensive orientated team. He himself gave a team with Bogans playing the 2 an offensive balance that could run with any squad. His willingness to pretty much do and say whatever he was told as well as just how much of a leader he was on that team it just made sense. He also didn't have a shabby season either. It may have not been statistically what Dwight and Lebron did however I felt his impact wasn't completely as measurable. It is impossible to say his impact to those that don't want to believe it but, I felt he gave a 5-8 seed team the confidence to play like a 1 seed and I felt it showed this year as well. Now as soon as it was all but certain the true leader of that team wasn't going to be there to save them then you seen the wheels fall off of that team

It was a completely different ball game once he was gone and I would imagine without him this year you will see just how much of an impact he actually made.

Well its not exactly Dwights fault that his teammates played with no heart and the coach couldnt get through to them. Dwight did the right thing and led by example. He took a team that should've been a lottery team to the 4th seed. Thats with the midseason trades that cost us wins, and basically giving up Lewis for nothing (Arenas was injured most of the season and when he did play he was nowhere near effective).

northsider
06-24-2012, 04:19 PM
Pretty dumb but, I also really believe Rose gave that team some confidence they would other wise lack if he wasn't there or just knowing he would be back. IDK and it is pretty off the wall but, I just really believe that team ran on fumes of the confidence they were given by being a top team. He really helped mold that team with the help of Thibs and just how much guys were willing to change and work.

His example of that willingness spread through that team like wildfire. I mean if you see your star player and top guy holding onto the coaches every word then you yourself is going to buy into it too and personally I thought he was Thibs best sales rep.

I just think there are allot of things he doesn't get credit for cause some people just really didn't watch him enough or follow the Bulls other then what they read or saw on highlights. We had a damn good team in place however it took the right mind set for all that to even become possible. Rose was a huge impact on that team and it goes beyond his offensive skill set.

northsider
06-24-2012, 04:22 PM
Well its not exactly Dwights fault that his teammates played with no heart and the coach couldnt get through to them. Dwight did the right thing and led by example. He took a team that should've been a lottery team to the 4th seed. Thats with the midseason trades that cost us wins, and basically giving up Lewis for nothing (Arenas was injured most of the season and when he did play he was nowhere near effective).

I am also inclined to believe he also didn't help that cause either. I like Dwight allot as a player but, personally went sour on him after some of the stuff this year however allot was prob. magnified by the media. Also in the Eastern Conf. I highly doubt that Magic team would've been a lottery team cause it is pretty damn easy to win those bottom seeds with how weak teams are down there.

I am not saying Dwight wasn't worthy however I just think it's absurd how many people think Rose wasn't.

DR_1
06-24-2012, 04:23 PM
Troll fail.

Ezio
06-24-2012, 04:24 PM
Dwight and Dirk had stronger cases, but their teams lost a few more games and Rose was rewarded for being the hot new story.

Him, AI, and Nash stole mvps that belonged to dominant bigmen. Sure they were worthy but not the most worthy

Needed the #1 seed to get it. I thought he deserved it but went down for 10 games I think and the team went 1-9 through that time.

Dwight's team wasn't even a 3rd seed that year.

5ass
06-24-2012, 04:25 PM
I am also inclined to believe he also didn't help that cause either. I like Dwight allot as a player but, personally went sour on him after some of the stuff this year however allot was prob. magnified by the media. Also in the Eastern Conf. I highly doubt that Magic team would've been a lottery team cause it is pretty damn easy to win those bottom seeds with how weak teams are down there.

I am not saying Dwight wasn't worthy however I just think it's absurd how many people think Rose wasn't.

How is that when he carried his team on offense and defense? Dwight actually called out his teammates in front of the media and they still didnt give a ****.

northsider
06-24-2012, 04:28 PM
How is that when he carried his team on offense and defense? Dwight actually called out his teammates in front of the media and they still didnt give a ****.

I was talking about the lack of enthusiasm around him with other players and listening to the coach or work ethic. I could be completely wrong but, I wouldn't be shocked if he didn't exactly help the cause in those regards. However his impact on the court was still second to none.

I once again am only arguing the angle that Rose was worthy that year which is where I think I get bothered.

Chronz
06-24-2012, 04:33 PM
Dwight and Dirk had stronger cases, but their teams lost a few more games and Rose was rewarded for being the hot new story.

Him, AI, and Nash stole mvps that belonged to dominant bigmen. Sure they were worthy but not the most worthy

Needed the #1 seed to get it. I thought he deserved it but went down for 10 games I think and the team went 1-9 through that time.

Dwight's team wasn't even a 3rd seed that year.
Isn't the point that the team was rudderless without Dirk show some proof of value? And whats your point about Dwights seeding?

thekmp211
06-24-2012, 04:36 PM
Troll fail.

:clap: way to not read champ.

fishfan79
06-24-2012, 04:37 PM
nope just like nash didnt deserve it his year. Shaq should of gotten it that year.

But it happens and will continue to. People give it to the breakout player in the big market (in rose's case)

5ass
06-24-2012, 04:38 PM
I was talking about the lack of enthusiasm around him with other players and listening to the coach or work ethic. I could be completely wrong but, I wouldn't be shocked if he didn't exactly help the cause in those regards. However his impact on the court was still second to none.

I once again am only arguing the angle that Rose was worthy that year which is where I think I get bothered.

Maybe dwight isnt as good as a team leader as rose, but when u have guys like Noah, Asik, Gibson and Deng that come in hustle and play hard its much easier being the leader.

bodupp311
06-24-2012, 04:42 PM
This thread is nothing but Chicago fans saying Drose deserved it,and non Bulls fans saying that Dwight should have won it.

So the correct answer is Dwight should have been MVP that year,not Drose.

I honestly think the only reason Dwight didn't get it was because he won DPOY,the NBA didn't want him to be MVP and DPOY.

Yeah because PSD really should be the deciding factor for who gets MVP.


3,000+ wasted posts.

northsider
06-24-2012, 04:42 PM
Maybe dwight isnt as good as a team leader as rose, but when u have guys like Noah, Asik, Gibson and Deng that come in hustle and play hard its much easier being the leader.

And it's only magnified when those guys see their teams best player and a NBA's top player giving it his all as well.

Oh well Dwight was great that year and he too was deserving but, I just see no reason to get up in arms about it anymore. I thought Rose had a great season himself and was worthy is all.

bodupp311
06-24-2012, 04:46 PM
Maybe dwight isnt as good as a team leader as rose, but when u have guys like Noah, Asik, Gibson and Deng that come in hustle and play hard its much easier being the leader.

Thibs and SVG are both hard-nosed no nonsense coaches and it makes it A LOT easier when your superstar buys into what you're selling.

How did that Howard/SVG thing workout for Orlando? Oh yeah, it was a train wreck. Why? Because Howard didn't buy into his coach. And by all accounts, SVG is a good coach.

Derrick has bought into Thibs system from day one and from what I've heard the rest of the team followed because of the example set by their SUPERSTAR.

k.smith904
06-24-2012, 04:48 PM
lol, what a joke this forum is.

bodupp311
06-24-2012, 04:50 PM
And it's only magnified when those guys see their teams best player and a NBA's top player giving it his all as well.

Oh well Dwight was great that year and he too was deserving but, I just see no reason to get up in arms about it anymore. I thought Rose had a great season himself and was worthy is all.

As does this BULLS fan. *gasp* Another Bulls fan that wouldn't have been upset not cared if Howard won it. But God forbid a Bulls player wins it. Because we have to keep going over and over and over why he didn't deserve it.

And how anyone can justify the reason the Bulls lost to the Sixers isn't because Rose tore his ACL is beyond my comprehension.

Longhornfan1234
06-24-2012, 04:50 PM
Dwight and Dirk had stronger cases, but their teams lost a few more games and Rose was rewarded for being the hot new story.

Him, AI, and Nash stole mvps that belonged to dominant bigmen. Sure they were worthy but not the most worthy

How did Howard have a better year? I want to understand your thinking.

bodupp311
06-24-2012, 04:51 PM
lol, what a joke this forum is.

:nod:

bbcmillionaire
06-24-2012, 04:57 PM
Lol well here's some bad news d12 fan and everyone else who thinks he didn't deserve it. Rose 1 MVP Dwight....another team? End this thread because I'm sure in 2 weeks another one will pop up

Chronz
06-24-2012, 05:02 PM
Dwight and Dirk had stronger cases, but their teams lost a few more games and Rose was rewarded for being the hot new story.

Him, AI, and Nash stole mvps that belonged to dominant bigmen. Sure they were worthy but not the most worthy

How did Howard have a better year? I want to understand your thinking.
No other player meant as much to his team on both ends. In terms of replacement value I can only think of Dirk as being so influential

bodupp311
06-24-2012, 05:05 PM
No joke, I've seen this forum say the Bulls are better without Rose when they were playing well without him. Then we're Rose or bust(after we lost to the Sixers).

Also, our players are underrated but no one would trade for them because they are overrated. But then you have to remember that Rose wasn't MVP because the players that played for the overrated players that were injured um... played. Also, Rose isn't a good defender. And Deng has a bad contract.

Confusing? These are EXACTLY the things I've read on here recently.

D12 fan
06-24-2012, 05:11 PM
Lol well here's some bad news d12 fan and everyone else who thinks he didn't deserve it. Rose 1 MVP Dwight....another team? End this thread because I'm sure in 2 weeks another one will pop up

Wow another Chicago fan,you guys stick together that's for sure.You are right lets close this thread.

KB24Mamba
06-24-2012, 05:11 PM
led bulls to #1 seed
Boozer + Noah both miss half the season
Bogans(player who isn't even playing on a team anymore was the SG)
aside from Deng was only other scoring threat
Put up MVP #s in his 3rd year

Dwight did have arguably better #s and had better supporting cast IMO

Believe a lot of voters probably looked at team success+impact and was the determining factors

nicegoing
06-24-2012, 05:14 PM
led bulls to #1 seed
Boozer + Noah both miss half the season
Bogans(player who isn't even playing on a team anymore was the SG)
aside from Deng was only other scoring threat
Put up MVP #s in his 3rd year

Dwight did have arguably better #s and had better supporting cast IMO

Believe a lot of voters probably looked at team success+impact and was the determining factors
haha I forgot about Keith Bogans wow

5ass
06-24-2012, 05:14 PM
And it's only magnified when those guys see their teams best player and a NBA's top player giving it his all as well.

Oh well Dwight was great that year and he too was deserving but, I just see no reason to get up in arms about it anymore. I thought Rose had a great season himself and was worthy is all.

How did Dwight not give it his all? He's ready to play every single game. He's leading his team in Points, rebounds, blocks, steals, fg%.

5ass
06-24-2012, 05:16 PM
Thibs and SVG are both hard-nosed no nonsense coaches and it makes it A LOT easier when your superstar buys into what you're selling.

How did that Howard/SVG thing workout for Orlando? Oh yeah, it was a train wreck. Why? Because Howard didn't buy into his coach. And by all accounts, SVG is a good coach.

Derrick has bought into Thibs system from day one and from what I've heard the rest of the team followed because of the example set by their SUPERSTAR.

this tells me u dont know what ur talking about, dwight bought into what SVG was selling and executed it, he just didnt like it.

5ass
06-24-2012, 05:17 PM
oh and btw this is like the worst argument u can make to justify an MVP award.

Chronz
06-24-2012, 05:19 PM
LOL at Dwight having more talent alongside him. And why are you guys acting is if Dwight didn't play to his fullest potential that year? He only showed a non committal attitude this year

downsos
06-24-2012, 05:19 PM
I'm failing to see how he didn't deserve it.

D12 fan
06-24-2012, 05:21 PM
LOL at Dwight having more talent alongside him. And why are you guys acting is if Dwight didn't play to his fullest potential that year? He only showed a non committal attitude this year

You can't tell them anything man,Chicago fans will stick together till the end.

Like I said this thread is Chicago homers vs Intelligent nba fans.

northsider
06-24-2012, 05:30 PM
You can't tell them anything man,Chicago fans will stick together till the end.

Like I said this thread is Chicago homers vs Intelligent nba fans.

Where is your category then?

Serious question that I bet I get a cocky response too.

bodupp311
06-24-2012, 05:32 PM
this tells me u dont know what ur talking about, dwight bought into what SVG was selling and executed it, he just didnt like it.

How is that buying into it if he doesn't like it? If he truly bought into it it seems logical to me that SVG would still be the coach of the Magic.

D12 fan
06-24-2012, 05:35 PM
Where is your category then?

Serious question that I bet I get a cocky response too.

Intelligent NBA fan.

D12 fan
06-24-2012, 05:36 PM
How is that buying into it if he doesn't like it? If he truly bought into it it seems logical to me that SVG would still be the coach of the Magic.

You can say the same about Drose and DelNegro,just saying.

northsider
06-24-2012, 05:37 PM
Intelligent NBA fan.

Ok cause I was clueless as to where to put you.

bodupp311
06-24-2012, 05:41 PM
You can say the same about Drose and DelNegro,just saying.

SVG is a good coach. VDN is not. So no you can't.

VDN got into with our FO over minutes played when Noah came back from injury.

Rose even backed VDN as well. Which is how Derrick is to a fault.

kozelkid
06-24-2012, 05:44 PM
Where is your category then?

Serious question that I bet I get a cocky response too.

Intelligent NBA fan.

Could've fooled me.

northsider
06-24-2012, 05:46 PM
Could've fooled me.

So nice of you to join us here Kozel.

D12 fan
06-24-2012, 05:47 PM
SVG is a good coach. VDN is not. So no you can't.

VDN got into with our FO over minutes played when Noah came back from injury.

Rose even backed VDN as well. Which is how Derrick is to a fault.

If Drose really backed VDN then im sure the franchise player would have had a say to if he came back as coach the next year.I don't think Drose respected VDN like you are saying he did.

kozelkid
06-24-2012, 05:48 PM
So nice of you to join us here Kozel.

As expected, this thread turned into a total **** feast. It's nice to see all the new trolls who have signed up.

To sum up my thoughts on this, I think very few people would deny that Howard is a more statistically dominant player. If that was the sole means of evaluating an MVP, then yes, it was either Howard's or Lebron's to lose. But there were never clear guidelines of evaluating an MVP player. Maybe being a breakout player should be factored. Maybe being on the best team should be factored. The guidelines have never been given so you go with your OPINION of what you value more. One thing I do know is that MVP is not simply about the best player, because if it was, MJ would not have lost that award to the likes of Barkley and Malone, nor would Shaq have only one.

Swashcuff
06-24-2012, 05:48 PM
Yes he did. He did deserve the MVP but so did LeBron and Howard... well Howard more so than LBJ. It wasn't a travesty by any means however Rose did more with less than any other player and for that he was deemed most valuable. I for one have no problem with it. Anyone who does is just being ridiculous.

Blitzbolt
06-24-2012, 05:49 PM
Simple last season most fans HATED Lebron so NBA had to give it to the next ''best player''.

Lebron got rob and we all know it even Rose and Bulls fans know it.

northsider
06-24-2012, 05:50 PM
Yes he did. He did deserve the MVP but so did LeBron and Howard... well Howard more so than LBJ. It wasn't a travesty by any means however Rose did more with less than any other player and for that he was deemed most valuable. I for one have no problem with it. Anyone who does is just being ridiculous.

Hey look not only is he not a Bulls fan but, he is a very intelligent NBA fan to boot.

How dare you!!!

D12 fan
06-24-2012, 05:50 PM
Simple last season most fans HATED Lebron so NBA had to give it to the next ''best player''.

Lebron got rob and we all know even Rose and Bulls fans know it.

Get ready Bulls fans are about to attack you.

northsider
06-24-2012, 05:52 PM
Get ready Bulls fans are about to attack you.

He essentially just called Rose a top 3 player in the NBA.

That is more of a compliment.

Swashcuff
06-24-2012, 05:52 PM
Wait isn't Chronz on record of saying that LeBron deserved the MVP last season more than anyone? How is Dirk now a part of the equation ahead of LeBron? :confused:

kozelkid
06-24-2012, 05:52 PM
If Drose really backed VDN then im sure the franchise player would have had a say to if he came back as coach the next year.I don't think Drose respected VDN like you are saying he did.

That's because you don't know the situation. Both Rose and Noah backed Vinny. But unlike Orlando or Cleveland, Chicago's FO has enough self-respect for themselves to make their own decisions without needing to confirm with their stars.

Vinny was a train-wreck and had to go.

5ass
06-24-2012, 05:57 PM
Yes he did. He did deserve the MVP but so did LeBron and Howard... well Howard more so than LBJ. It wasn't a travesty by any means however Rose did more with less than any other player and for that he was deemed most valuable. I for one have no problem with it. Anyone who does is just being ridiculous.

U think its ridiculous that i think the better player (Howard) should've gotten the MVP award. Im not going to start any riots over it, im just saying that i cant take his award seriously because to me dwight was clearly the better option. To me the media was looking for a story more than awarding the best player available (which i know is not always the case for MVP awards, but still it should be).

5ass
06-24-2012, 05:59 PM
That's because you don't know the situation. Both Rose and Noah backed Vinny. But unlike Orlando or Cleveland, Chicago's FO has enough self-respect for themselves to make their own decisions without needing to confirm with their stars.

Vinny was a train-wreck and had to go.

oh and who are u to say that rose didnt secretly ask the FO to get rid of VDN? Im not saying thats what happened, but stuff like that happen all the time.

cubbies7177
06-24-2012, 06:01 PM
Simple last season most fans HATED Lebron so NBA had to give it to the next ''best player''.

Lebron got rob and we all know it even Rose and Bulls fans know it.

hahahaha i love that gif of the fat kid. makes me laugh every time.

there were definitely other factors in rose getting the mvp. he brought us to the #1 spot in the East, and if u TRULY think that the bulls would be there without rose, that's simply a joke...

people look at last season.. see that we were doing "fine" without rose when they didnt even look at the schedule. we were playing horsesh*t teams.. i think there were a few good teams scattered, but most of those wins came form 500 or sub 500 teams if i remember correctly.

without rose, the bulls are nothing more than a 6-8 seed.

i feel like people in PSD forget about the past too quickly...

kozelkid
06-24-2012, 06:02 PM
oh and who are u to say that rose didnt secretly ask the FO to get rid of VDN? Im not saying thats what happened, but stuff like that happen all the time.

Based on his actions and publicly backing Vinny many times. That and it is not in Rose's nature to do the opposite. We're talking about a guy who always blames himself first when things don't go well. So yes, I highly doubt Rose asked the FO to get rid of Vinny. Not that he even needed to after Pax allegedly punched Vinny. Dude was goner between that and the countless ****-ups during the season like blowing a 30+ point lead.

Swashcuff
06-24-2012, 06:04 PM
At the end of the 10-11 season my MVP ballot was 1. Howard 2. Rose 3. LBJ. I was a bit peeved that Rose got the award but he had credible reasoning for such.

Rose perceived 2nd best player and 2nd best scorer Carlos Boozer missed a huge chunk of the season and really was nothing special. Joakim Noah also missed a great part of the season and coming into the year he was seen as their 3rd best player. Despite this however Chicago was able to improve their record immensely with just ONE player who was capable of creating a shot for not only himself but others. There were occasions in which Derrick Rose played as a shooting guard and a point guard on the very same play it seemed he was that valuable to them offensively.

Sure they won a ton because of their defense and coaching but without Rose they would have been a sub .500 team. Can't say the same about LeBron's Heat. That's the meaning of value in the regular season IMO. Dwight showed that type of value more than anyone IMO and that's why I chose him as my MVP but the fact that Rose's Bulls finished with a better record than Dwight's Magic and of course the best record in the league I could have seen Rose finishing ahead of him in the voting.

LBJ's chances were hurt when his new "Super Team" finished with a worst record than his old team did the previous season when he won the award and it wasn't all because of hate.

So Chronz your whole Rose was the new story and that's why he won the award notion couldn't be more wrong. I'm sure you can give a better analysis than that.

Rose overcame adversity to finish as the most improved team in the league in a single season. He improved his overall game (on the court and off it) leaps and bounds as well and was rightfully in the plateau of the top 8-10 players in the league.

I still think Howard should have won it over him but Howard's team record left a little to be desired.

smith&wesson
06-24-2012, 06:08 PM
honestly the bulls still had a reallly good record with him being out for soo long.

bodupp311
06-24-2012, 06:09 PM
If Drose really backed VDN then im sure the franchise player would have had a say to if he came back as coach the next year.I don't think Drose respected VDN like you are saying he did.

Because VDN was a bad coach and ****ed up constantly. That's on our FO to recognize that and they did. Plus as I mentioned he had a run in with our FO NOT Rose. Rose always backed VDN. Hell, Rose backed Bogans too! That's how he is.


Nevermind, kozel basically said what I just did. I hate that guy ;)

D12 fan
06-24-2012, 06:09 PM
That's because you don't know the situation. Both Rose and Noah backed Vinny. But unlike Orlando or Cleveland, Chicago's FO has enough self-respect for themselves to make their own decisions without needing to confirm with their stars.

Vinny was a train-wreck and had to go.

Oh and you suppose to know the situation with the Bulls FO?You don't know what goes on behind the scenes,like I said if your star player backs a coach he usually returns the next season unless Drose really didn't care for VDN coaching job,which could've been a possibility.

Swashcuff
06-24-2012, 06:09 PM
U think its ridiculous that i think the better player (Howard) should've gotten the MVP award. Im not going to start any riots over it, im just saying that i cant take his award seriously because to me dwight was clearly the better option. To me the media was looking for a story more than awarding the best player available (which i know is not always the case for MVP awards, but still it should be).


No Howard was my MVP that season. You clearly don't understand what is being said. I am saying if you have a problem with Rose winning it that is what is ridiculous.

Can you not logically decipher the reason as to why Rose won and Howard didn't or are you just going to ignore than Rose had a very stellar case for the award.

Again I repeat I thought Howard should have won over Rose that doesn't mean however that I would have had a problem with Rose winning. He had solid reasoning.

You guys are acting as if Howard of that season was LeBron of this season and Rose was Tony Parker and Tony Parker somehow upset LeBron for the MVP award. Rose was very close to Howard in terms of production and had a better team record despite losing some of his better players at various crucial points during the season. He and his Bulls overcame adversity and finished with the best record in the league. What in that is worthy of getting butt hurt over?

kozelkid
06-24-2012, 06:09 PM
honestly the bulls still had a reallly good record with him being out for soo long.

Different season: players were more adjusted to Thib's system, Thibs had another year of experience, Noah and Boozer were mostly healthy, etc.

Swashcuff
06-24-2012, 06:10 PM
honestly the bulls still had a reallly good record with him being out for soo long.

What are you talking about?

bodupp311
06-24-2012, 06:10 PM
honestly the bulls still had a reallly good record with him being out for soo long.

Yeah, THIS year. We're talking about LAST year. You know, the year Rose won MVP. He played most of THAT season.

kozelkid
06-24-2012, 06:12 PM
Oh and you suppose to know the situation with the Bulls FO?You don't know what goes on behind the scenes,like I said if your star player backs a coach he usually returns the next season unless Drose really didn't care for VDN coaching job,which could've been a possibility.

Why? Because you said it?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Bulls FO is more conservative than most managements. They're an organization that does not usually care for the opinions of its star players; FO does the management, players do the playing. In fact, it was this model that caused a lot of issues between Krause and MJ and Phil near the end of that dynasty.

I also say it because I know my Bulls significantly better than you do.

D12 fan
06-24-2012, 06:16 PM
Why? Because you said it?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Bulls FO is more conservative than most managements. They're an organization that does not usually care for the opinions of its star players; FO does the management, players do the playing. In fact, it was this model that caused a lot of issues between Krause and MJ and Phil near the end of that dynasty.

I also say it because I know my Bulls significantly better than you do.

Just like you said you knew the situation with the Bulls FO,you don't know what goes on between Drose and the Bulls FO.You are assuming just like me,we don't know what goes on behind close doors,everything that happens to the public eye,may not be the same behind close doors.

5ass
06-24-2012, 06:18 PM
No Howard was my MVP that season. You clearly don't understand what is being said. I am saying if you have a problem with Rose winning it that is what is ridiculous.

Can you not logically decipher the reason as to why Rose won and Howard didn't or are you just going to ignore than Rose had a very stellar case for the award.

Again I repeat I thought Howard should have won over Rose that doesn't mean however that I would have had a problem with Rose winning. He had solid reasoning.

You guys are acting as if Howard of that season was LeBron of this season and Rose was Tony Parker and Tony Parker somehow upset LeBron for the MVP award. Rose was very close to Howard in terms of production and had a better team record despite losing some of his better players at various crucial points during the season. He and his Bulls overcame adversity and finished with the best record in the league. What in that is worthy of getting butt hurt over?

no, no he wasnt. Dwight and Bron were on another level, Rose was below that along with KD, Kobe

D12 fan
06-24-2012, 06:21 PM
no, no he wasnt. Dwight and Bron were on another level, Rose was slightly below that along with KD, Kobe

Dwight also dominated Rose and the Bulls when they played each other.

Evolution23
06-24-2012, 06:23 PM
Rose is a glorified Iverson without the heart.

Swashcuff
06-24-2012, 06:26 PM
Rose is a glorified Iverson without the heart.

Carmelo is a glorified Glenn Robinson without the fat.

D12 fan
06-24-2012, 06:27 PM
Rose is a glorified Iverson without the heart.

lmao

smith&wesson
06-24-2012, 06:31 PM
Different season: players were more adjusted to Thib's system, Thibs had another year of experience, Noah and Boozer were mostly healthy, etc.


What are you talking about?


Yeah, THIS year. We're talking about LAST year. You know, the year Rose won MVP. He played most of THAT season.

the bulls still had the best record in the east with him being injured and only playing 39 games the season right after he won his mvp award.. just makes you think .. thats all im saying.

northsider
06-24-2012, 06:32 PM
Dwight also dominated Rose and the Bulls when they played each other.

Mean while the Bulls won 3 of 4 of those matchups and Rose wasn't too shabby himself.

Swashcuff
06-24-2012, 06:32 PM
no, no he wasnt. Dwight and Bron were on another level, Rose was below that along with KD, Kobe

So that's all you're going to take from entire post? :laugh2:

Tell me this who was closer Dwight and Rose of 2010-2011 or LeBron and Parker of 2011-2012?

northsider
06-24-2012, 06:32 PM
the bulls still had the best record in the east with him being injured the season right after he won his mvp award..

just makes you think .. thats all im saying.

We also lost 4 straight games in the playoffs after he was gone to the Sixers.

Just makes you think...that's all I'm saying.

smith&wesson
06-24-2012, 06:35 PM
Carmelo is a glorified Glenn Robinson without the fat.

i would say the iverson rose comparison is more acurate.

Swashcuff
06-24-2012, 06:35 PM
the bulls still had the best record in the east with him being injured the season right after he won his mvp award..

just makes you think .. thats all im saying.

There were 32-7 (.780) in the regular season with him and 18-9 (.667) without him in the regular season.

Just makes you think right?

smith&wesson
06-24-2012, 06:37 PM
We also lost 4 straight games in the playoffs after he was gone to the Sixers.

Just makes you think...that's all I'm saying.

its not like with him in th line up you guys reached the finals or even the ecf's.

im not knocking rose in any way. he is a great talent. but it puzzles me how the bulls were still able to be that good with out him in the reg season.. i mean its something to think about when answering the op's question right ?

Swashcuff
06-24-2012, 06:37 PM
i would say the iverson rose comparison is more acurate.

Hell no. Rose has heart. Very very very few compare to Allen Iverson when it comes to heart but Derrick Rose certainly has.

5ass
06-24-2012, 06:38 PM
So that's all you're going to take from entire post? :laugh2:

Tell me this who was closer Dwight and Rose of 2010-2011 or LeBron and Parker of 2011-2012?

not really much substance in ur post, u thought howard was the MVP yet ur fine with Rose getting it. What do u want me to say? Thats like me saying i love cheeseburgers, but ill order a pizza cz its not bad either.

Thats an irrelevant question that u made up why would that hold any value in this discussion? but to answer ur question. Dwight and Rose, but answer my question, would u have been fine with Kobe winning MVP that year? and who was closer Kobe and Rose of 2010-11 or Lebron and Parker of 2011-2012?

northsider
06-24-2012, 06:40 PM
its not like with him in th line up you guys reached the finals or even the ecf's.

im not knocking rose in any way. he is a great talent. but it puzzles me how the bulls were still able to be that good with out him in the reg season.. i mean its something to think about when answering the op's question right ?

HUH??? We did reach the ECF with him in the lineup that year???

And if you are talking about this year then it furthers the point of how important he was cause we essentially got swept out once he was gone after game 1.

kingsdelez24
06-24-2012, 06:40 PM
Wasn't dirk #1 on the rankings until he got injured?

northsider
06-24-2012, 06:41 PM
not really much substance in ur post, u thought howard was the MVP yet ur fine with Rose getting it. What do u want me to say? Thats like me saying i love cheeseburgers, but ill order a pizza cz its not bad either.

Thats an irrelevant question that u made up why would that hold any value in this discussion? but to answer ur question. Dwight and Rose, but answer my question, would u have been fine with Kobe winning MVP that year? and who was closer Kobe and Rose of 2010-11 or Lebron and Parker of 2011-2012?

He's saying it's ridiculous to make such a big deal about Rose winning it as if it is as absurd as you guys make it out to be.

To which I completely agree. It really isn't the robbery all of you act like it is.

nitric
06-24-2012, 06:43 PM
Simple last season most fans HATED Lebron so NBA had to give it to the next ''best player''.

Lebron got rob and we all know it even Rose and Bulls fans know it.

LeBron got robbed when he couldn't even get the #1 seed competing against an injured Bulls team? Am I reading this right?

smith&wesson
06-24-2012, 06:44 PM
There were 32-7 (.780) in the regular season with him and 18-9 (.667) without him in the regular season.

Just makes you think right?

I dont understand what im saying wrong here.

usually you take the best player from any team away and you notice a huge drop off in production.

for example when orlando was in 3rd in the east and howard got injured they dropped down to 6th in the east. howard also didnt miss as many games as rose did. but the bulls were able to maintain and still come out with the first in the east which was huge.

maybe what im saying is being taken out of context ?

Swashcuff
06-24-2012, 06:44 PM
its not like with him in th line up you guys reached the finals or even the ecf's.

im not knocking rose in any way. he is a great talent. but it puzzles me how the bulls were still able to be that good with out him in the reg season.. i mean its something to think about when answering the op's question right ?

No actually. Its two different seasons.

When a team develops and thrives with a winning philosophy its hard to change that in all honesty. After being battle tested some teams just learn how to win and their players/coaches know how to execute a bit better than those who aren't accustomed. That's the a major reason why the Bulls were still decent without Rose.

Their defense was a huge reason as to why they won as much as they did with or without him but when he went down during the regular season on more occasions than not his back-ups stepped up. Ex John Lucas III against the Heat. CK Watson against Pheonix, Boston and Toronto etc.

During the 2010-2011 season someone said that teams tend to learn from their leader. In the sense that that team then develops their leaders persona and identity and he was talking about The Mavs and Dirk. Saying that the Mavs of years past seemed to be soft etc but last season was different and in actuality it hold truth.

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link but a team only goes as far as their leader carries them. They adapted Derrick Rose's fire and desire to win but they just weren't good enough. That worked fine in the regular season but against a team such as Philly who isn't your typical everyday 8th seed they just weren't able to keep up.

5ass
06-24-2012, 06:47 PM
I dont understand what im saying wrong here.

usually you take the best player from any team away and you notice a huge drop off in production.

for example when orlando was in 3rd in the east and howard got injured they dropped down to 6th in the east. howard also didnt miss as many games as rose did. but the bulls were able to maintain and still come out with the first in the east which was huge.

maybe what im saying is being taken out of context ?

yes, and that happened in what, 10 games? If the season was any longer they wouldn't have made the play offs.

northsider
06-24-2012, 06:48 PM
yes, and that happened in what, 10 games? If the season was any longer they wouldn't have made the play offs.

That's also cause there wasn't many games separating them from the 6th in the first place.

Swashcuff
06-24-2012, 06:52 PM
not really much substance in ur post, u thought howard was the MVP yet ur fine with Rose getting it. What do u want me to say? Thats like me saying i love cheeseburgers, but ill order a pizza cz its not bad either.

Thats an irrelevant question that u made up why would that hold any value in this discussion? but to answer ur question. Dwight and Rose, but answer my question, would u have been fine with Kobe winning MVP that year? and who was closer Kobe and Rose of 2010-11 or Lebron and Parker of 2011-2012?

LMFAO at you of all people saying that there wasn't much substance in my post that's ironic as hell.

To answer your question I say no, because there is a whole lot more to do with the MVP voting than just individual play. Sure Rose was more comparable to Kobe than he was to Dwight but why don't we compare teams and team records? Why don't we look at this from a holistic POV instead of in a vacuum?

Better supporting cast? Kobe hands down no doubt
Better coach? Kobe
Defending champion? Kobe
Better team record? Derrick Rose

Now knowing these variables would you say that the only thing you'd pay attention to is the player's level of production?

You clearly don't know your history of the game nor the MVP award which is why you'd continue making such asinine posts. Until you do you'd continue spewing nonsense in all of your posts.

Honestly if you think if all you need to do is be the best player in the NBA to win an MVP award then you shouldn't be even arguing for Dwight here. You should argue that LBJ should have won the award.

thekmp211
06-24-2012, 06:53 PM
tne flip side is dirk really. he got screwed hard by perception.

everyone just assumed he would fold in the playoffs and that factored into the voting for a regular season award.

thekmp211
06-24-2012, 06:53 PM
not really much substance in ur post, u thought howard was the MVP yet ur fine with Rose getting it. What do u want me to say? Thats like me saying i love cheeseburgers, but ill order a pizza cz its not bad either.

Thats an irrelevant question that u made up why would that hold any value in this discussion? but to answer ur question. Dwight and Rose, but answer my question, would u have been fine with Kobe winning MVP that year? and who was closer Kobe and Rose of 2010-11 or Lebron and Parker of 2011-2012?

:facepalm: swash no substance? me no likey.

5ass
06-24-2012, 06:54 PM
That's also cause there wasn't many games separating them from the 6th in the first place.

We were **** without Howard, that 10 game stretch was one of the worst defensive performances i have seen in my entire life. they let opponents shoot 50%! The worst opp fg% EVER in an NBA isnt even that bad. Its like SVG said, we couldnt guard any1. We were below .500 for that stretch. I know its a small sample size, but Howard's impact is that big.

Baller1
06-24-2012, 06:57 PM
I just don't see personally and I am sure most of it has to do with my progressive over protectiveness of Rose due to the amount of unwarranted hate he gets. I refuse to believe it was as much of a robbery as people make it out to be.

Trust me, I understand being overprotective. Westbrook gets so much hate it's ridiculous.

But yeah, I don't think that he's undeserving, I just felt like others were more deserving. That's the way I see it.

Swashcuff
06-24-2012, 06:59 PM
I dont understand what im saying wrong here.

usually you take the best player from any team away and you notice a huge drop off in production.

for example when orlando was in 3rd in the east and howard got injured they dropped down to 6th in the east. howard also didnt miss as many games as rose did. but the bulls were able to maintain and still come out with the first in the east which was huge.

maybe what im saying is being taken out of context ?

Dwight is the catalyst to the Orlando Magic team. I have said it for years that there is no one more valuable to their team than Dwight Howard. They won based heavily on their defense for the past 4 or so seasons. Do you know the Orlando Magic perimeter defenders defensive philosophy? To ensure that they lead their man into Dwight's lane. Not to stay in front of them to not play hard on them but rather to give their team's best defender the brunt of the work.

Once things works as it should for them defensively the attacking player will either attack Dwight in the paint and run the risk of getting their shot blocked or altered or taking an ill advised jump shot.

Dwight is the centre. The man who guards the paint, rebounds, scores in the paint and helps to free their shooters. Of course his team would be worst off without him. You can be comparing Magic Johnson on the Bulls to Dwight on the Magic it would be the very same.

northsider
06-24-2012, 07:00 PM
Trust me, I understand being overprotective. Westbrook gets so much hate it's ridiculous.

But yeah, I don't think that he's undeserving, I just felt like others were more deserving. That's the way I see it.

And I have admitted this much numerous times. I just think it's not worth getting up in arms about anymore really. The fact it was Rose makes some want to go to eternal lengths to talk it down.

Oh well I really don't care as he is now injured and the Bulls are back to square one until he comes back. Life couldn't be much ******** at the moment after being one of the best in the NBA.

Makes you appreciate it even more although I have had a taste of that after watching our monstrosity after Jordan left the Bulls.

Furymaker
06-24-2012, 07:01 PM
you're forget he played without Noah , Boozer for some time , led them to best record in NBA , and you're obviously forget how large his impact was , just to make it bit easier on you guys , his team got eliminated in 1st round this year by Philly 76ers , after they've won 1st game with Rose on court who almost got triple-double and led them to double digit victory . By only that game you can see his impact , not to mention stuff he did in 2011 .
He joined club of 7 players if I remember correctly for putting that much points/rebounds/assists in a season ..

smith&wesson
06-24-2012, 07:04 PM
No actually. Its two different seasons.

When a team develops and thrives with a winning philosophy its hard to change that in all honesty. After being battle tested some teams just learn how to win and their players/coaches know how to execute a bit better than those who aren't accustomed. That's the a major reason why the Bulls were still decent without Rose.

Their defense was a huge reason as to why they won as much as they did with or without him but when he went down during the regular season on more occasions than not his back-ups stepped up. Ex John Lucas III against the Heat. CK Watson against Pheonix, Boston and Toronto etc.

During the 2010-2011 season someone said that teams tend to learn from their leader. In the sense that that team then develops their leaders persona and identity and he was talking about The Mavs and Dirk. Saying that the Mavs of years past seemed to be soft etc but last season was different and in actuality it hold truth.

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link but a team only goes as far as their leader carries them. They adapted Derrick Rose's fire and desire to win but they just weren't good enough. That worked fine in the regular season but against a team such as Philly who isn't your typical everyday 8th seed they just weren't able to keep up.

i see what your saying. i agree for the most part. but how much of that can be proven ? how can we prove that the reason the bulls were still able to find success in the reg season was because they developed their leaders persona? or we could credit the other players for stepping up in his absence all together. the coach, the system and the players themselves should get recognition.

i know that were talking about two different seasons. all im saying is the very next season after rose got his mvp his team still went on to win the east with him only playing 39 games. which shows that maybe his team can still compete with out him.

yes in the playoffs they were exposed which is the flip side to the argue ment. Doesnt mean that its not valid to consider this as well though.

smith&wesson
06-24-2012, 07:13 PM
We also lost 4 straight games in the playoffs after he was gone to the Sixers.

Just makes you think...that's all I'm saying.

That is a valid arguement. season mvp has nothing to really do with the playoffs though.

Jarvo
06-24-2012, 07:17 PM
Ehhh it was a year ago.

smith&wesson
06-24-2012, 07:24 PM
yes, and that happened in what, 10 games? If the season was any longer they wouldn't have made the play offs.

its not a hard concept to grasp. im glad someone else understands what im saying.


Dwight is the catalyst to the Orlando Magic team. I have said it for years that there is no one more valuable to their team than Dwight Howard. They won based heavily on their defense for the past 4 or so seasons. Do you know the Orlando Magic perimeter defenders defensive philosophy? To ensure that they lead their man into Dwight's lane. Not to stay in front of them to not play hard on them but rather to give their team's best defender the brunt of the work.

Once things works as it should for them defensively the attacking player will either attack Dwight in the paint and run the risk of getting their shot blocked or altered or taking an ill advised jump shot.

Dwight is the centre. The man who guards the paint, rebounds, scores in the paint and helps to free their shooters. Of course his team would be worst off without him. You can be comparing Magic Johnson on the Bulls to Dwight on the Magic it would be the very same.

shouldnt the mvp go to the player that is most vital to the success of its team ??

it shoundnt matter if your a pg, sg, sf,pf, or c. if your team cant compete with out you, your more important to your team then the guy who only plays 39 games in the following season and his team still finish's first in its conference.

every player plays a role to help its team. if one players position is more vital to its teams success he shouldnt be penalized for it when being compared to another player of a different position.

thekmp211
06-24-2012, 07:25 PM
Okay Mr Impact how would your NBA MVP rankings of that season go?

Dwight Howard is the ultimate impact player if that's what we're using the measure MVP then he should have won 4 years in a row.

Thanks for calling me the most stubborn and arrogant as well. I'm happy I'm not 2nd or 3rd on that list :win:

Chronz eat your heart out.

LOL wear that badge sir and wear it proudly :clap:

Swashcuff
06-24-2012, 07:25 PM
i see what your saying. i agree for the most part. but how much of that can be proven ? how can we prove that the reason the bulls were still able to find success in the reg season was because they developed their leaders persona? or we could credit the other players for stepping up in his absence all together. the coach, the system and the players themselves should get recognition.

All I have done in my posts is give his cast (for their amazing defense) and his coach credit. I do think however that there is a little truth to whole adapting a leader's persona. Also I know there is truth from my finding a winning formula argument.


i know that were talking about two different seasons. all im saying is the very next season after rose got his mvp his team still went on to win the east with him only playing 39 games. which shows that maybe his team can still compete with out him.

We also have to consider the fact that they won the East the year before. This also isn't LeBron's Cavs. This is a legit defensive unit anchored by role players in Deng, Noah, Asik, Brewer and Gibson. They won in large part because of the defensive play of those players.

Again with Rose they were still MUCH better than they were without him. It matters not how bad they played without him. What really matters is how much better they played with him. We can't penalize Rose for having the best defensive supporting cast the league has to offer.

Swashcuff
06-24-2012, 07:33 PM
its not a hard concept to grasp. im glad someone else understands what im saying.



shouldnt the mvp go to the player that is most vital to the success of its team ??

it shoundnt matter if your a pg, sg, sf,pf, or c. if your team cant compete with out you, your more important to your team then the guy who only plays 39 games in the following season and his team still finish's first in its conference.

every player plays a role to help its team. if one players position is more vital to its teams success he shouldnt be penalized for it when being compared to another player of a different position.

Did you not see where I said that Dwight was my MVP? I've said it on like 3 occasions in this thread.

However if that's the reasoning one can say that Kevin Love who won just 17 games with the Wolves should have gotten quite a few MVP votes because without Love that team would have set an even lower bar for this past season's Bobcats to break for the worst W% in league history.

They were absolutely atrocious without Kevin Love, MUCH worst than Dwight's Magic would have been without him. Dwight was worth more wins than Kevin Love was but Love's team would have been one of the worst if not the worst ever had it not been for him.

Like I said before we have to look at this holistically taking every variable and historical precedent into reference. That is why I said Dwight was most deserving of the award and not because he was the better player or the ultimate impact player.

smith&wesson
06-24-2012, 07:39 PM
Did you not see where I said that Dwight was my MVP? I've said it on like 3 occasions in this thread.

However if that's the reasoning one can say that Kevin Love who won just 17 games with the Wolves should have gotten quite a few MVP votes because without Love that team would have set an even lower bar for this past season's Bobcats to break for the worst W% in league history.

They were absolutely atrocious without Kevin Love, MUCH worst than Dwight's Magic would have been without him. Dwight was worth more wins than Kevin Love was but Love's team would have been one of the worst if not the worst ever had it not been for him.

Like I said before we have to look at this holistically taking every variable and historical precedent into reference. That is why I said Dwight was most deserving of the award and not because he was the better player or the ultimate impact player.

well i agree with you. my mvp would have been howard as well last season.

up until rubio got injured i think you could have considered love. sure why not. he was helping his team win. but we all know your not getting the mvp nod if your team aint making the playoffs.

again i agree that dwight should have won it. as he is more important to his team and their success. this season i think clearly proved that. when both players went down one guys team really reallly struggled while the other guys team still fought and won the east.

smith&wesson
06-24-2012, 08:04 PM
All I have done in my posts is give his cast (for their amazing defense) and his coach credit. I do think however that there is a little truth to whole adapting a leader's persona. Also I know there is truth from my finding a winning formula argument.



We also have to consider the fact that they won the East the year before. This also isn't LeBron's Cavs. This is a legit defensive unit anchored by role players in Deng, Noah, Asik, Brewer and Gibson. They won in large part because of the defensive play of those players.

Again with Rose they were still MUCH better than they were without him. It matters not how bad they played without him. What really matters is how much better they played with him. We can't penalize Rose for having the best defensive supporting cast the league has to offer.

good point. but is it fair to say that rose has a better supporting cast then ?

Swashcuff
06-24-2012, 08:15 PM
good point. but is it fair to say that rose has a better supporting cast then ?

Player vs player damn skippy IMO. They are different casts however if you get what I mean. Dwight's cast and coaching helps him immensely where as Rose's (at least defensively) does as well.

I think in terms of the way their casts were built they were both ideal for their respective game. Dwight however could use some defensive help on the perimeter and interior and Rose could have used another play-maker, creator type on the perimeter.

Rose had the best defensive supporting cast in the league and Dwight has arguably the best jump shooting supporting cast in the league.

thekmp211
06-24-2012, 08:22 PM
good point. but is it fair to say that rose has a better supporting cast then ?

oh for sure. better starters, better bench, even a better coach (sorry SVG).

magic supporting case is so wildly overrated, by some anyway, besides maybe ryan anderson and even he became overrated this season a bit. every starter besides dwight is below avg for their position. and reddick is the only bench guy worth his paycheck.

dwight did everything for that team, they are looking at a lot of lottery balls if and when he leaves.

effen5
06-24-2012, 08:56 PM
oh for sure. better starters, better bench, even a better coach (sorry SVG).

magic supporting case is so wildly overrated, by some anyway, besides maybe ryan anderson and even he became overrated this season a bit. every starter besides dwight is below avg for their position. and reddick is the only bench guy worth his paycheck.

dwight did everything for that team, they are looking at a lot of lottery balls if and when he leaves.

You know whats funny though, beginning of last year and two years ago, the Magic fans would have told you they have a much better team than the Bulls did. It's just when the Magic players stopped playing (IMO Quit on the team on several occasions last year) that all of a sudden they have a much worser team than the Bulls. Unfortunately, you can't teach a player to play with heart and the magic really don't play with heart like the Bulls do.

You think if players on the Bulls didn't play hard every game with a 100 percent intensity that they would be this good? Hell no. Asik for example has absolute zero talent but since he is out there giving it all, he plays extremely well and will be soon overpaid by another team. Same with Gibson...Stacy King's saying for Gibson is "Hard hat lunch pail" because he comes in every game to play.

Thats also the difference between VDN and Thibs. VDN would tolerate that ******** to a degree....see Tyrus Thomas....he plays so erraticly but VDN doesn't do ****....you think Thibs would tolerate that?

But the thing that changed the whole system wasn't just the firing of VDN but it was the relationship between Derrick Rose and Tom Thibideau. Derrick Rose bought in to what Thibs was saying and once Derrick Rose became that leader on the Bulls, every player on the roster followed him. You saw plays two years ago where Rose would get his *** chewed out by Thibs, and once other players saw that, they knew there were no favorites on this team.

How do I know this? What happened when Rose went down last year? Have you seen the interviews of other players on this team when Rose went down and others had to step it up? JL3 has a good game and what does he say? "Our leader went down I had to step it up" and thats only one example.

Cubby
06-24-2012, 09:10 PM
oh for sure. better starters, better bench, even a better coach (sorry SVG).

magic supporting case is so wildly overrated, by some anyway, besides maybe ryan anderson and even he became overrated this season a bit. every starter besides dwight is below avg for their position. and reddick is the only bench guy worth his paycheck.

dwight did everything for that team, they are looking at a lot of lottery balls if and when he leaves.

Thibs was a rookie coach for crying out loud.

effen5
06-24-2012, 09:16 PM
Thibs was a rookie coach for crying out loud.

Not just that, two of our starters missed majority of the games, and one of the starters is gone.

thekmp211
06-24-2012, 10:11 PM
Thibs was a rookie coach for crying out loud.

yeah pretty incredible. got his degree from the school of doc.

mc_9
06-24-2012, 10:42 PM
without him, his teamates still did great. so no he shouldnt have won

Yeah they were so great that they got bounced in the first round of the playoffs without him.

Chronz
06-24-2012, 11:15 PM
I wrote a lengthy response at work but it got erased so Ill surmise my thoughts as simply as I can.

I get that the MVP doesnt always go to the best player, though I dont think many people ever claimed that to be the sole function behind their reasoning, there is no question that doesnt hurt the argument. So hes not the superior player that leaves the subjective argument of the "Most Valuable" part right, well what evidence do we have that hes more valuable than either Dirk or Dwight? A common occurrence among Rose supporters is that they hide behind this misguided notion that their player's value isnt fully reflected in his stats. NEWSFLASH, neither are any of the other MVP candidates. Rose supporters want us to suppress any and all objective evidence we have to help measure that value.
Both Dwight and Dirk rated higher by various +/- analysis (RAPM, Adj +/-). Even without those stats we KNOW that Dirk was on a championship caliber team that utterly fell apart without him in the games he missed. We KNOW that Dwight's impact defensively is unrivaled and even the stats dont fully capture his impact on that end.

This is why I dont get why fans put so much emphasis on Boozer/Noah being out, they had the deepest frontcourt in the league and were well equipped to compensate for those losses. And its not as if both were out simultaneously, for the most part one or the other was out there.

So hes not the best player, hes not more vital since his team doesnt fall apart without him the way they do without Dwight/Dirk. Whats left? His team won more games? Thats a pretty shoddy reason IMO and if not for him being the hot new story, I dont think that would have carried the weight it did.

I basically see it as Rose turned a good team into a contender, Dirk turned a team full of specialist that couldnt function without him into a legit title contender, and Dwight took crap and made them a team that could compete for HCA despite wholesale changes made in season. That doesnt sit well with me.

Chronz
06-24-2012, 11:16 PM
yeah pretty incredible. got his degree from the school of doc.

Who?

naps
06-25-2012, 12:04 AM
Rose being the new hot story in the league coupled with LeBron James all of a sudden being portrait as the American villain played the biggest the role in R2MVP that season. Rose was absolutely in the discussion but I feel guys like Howard, LeBron were more worthy.

Glen20
06-25-2012, 01:27 AM
Rose being the new hot story in the league coupled with LeBron James all of a sudden being portrait as the American villain played the biggest the role in R2MVP that season. Rose was absolutely in the discussion but I feel guys like Howard, LeBron were more worthy.

i feel that wade sort of diminished Lebrons value in '10-11 because Wade was playing at a very high level. Howard is the one i would have voted as MVP, but what happened happened.

bearadonisdna
06-25-2012, 01:59 AM
Rose easily deserved the MVP.
People forget he was nearly unanimously voted for it.

James was third in the voting.

Rose had 2000 points
600 assist. Rarely done ever. And only done by HOF players.

Rose swept the Heat with the bulls at less than full strength.
Roses MVP was more decisive than James MVP this year.

Was the only allstar on his team.

A slight case could be made for howard, but its hard to measure his value when the team was gutted mid season and was only a 4th seed.
And if anyone is familiar with Magic basketball, they sometimes get destroyed by bad teams.

stlbest5in2013
06-25-2012, 02:25 AM
Just like you said you knew the situation with the Bulls FO,you don't know what goes on between Drose and the Bulls FO.You are assuming just like me,we don't know what goes on behind close doors,everything that happens to the public eye,may not be the same behind close doors.



Will you stop being a ****** troll already? Thanks

stlbest5in2013
06-25-2012, 02:25 AM
I wrote a lengthy response at work but it got erased so Ill surmise my thoughts as simply as I can.

I get that the MVP doesnt always go to the best player, though I dont think many people ever claimed that to be the sole function behind their reasoning, there is no question that doesnt hurt the argument. So hes not the superior player that leaves the subjective argument of the "Most Valuable" part right, well what evidence do we have that hes more valuable than either Dirk or Dwight? A common occurrence among Rose supporters is that they hide behind this misguided notion that their player's value isnt fully reflected in his stats. NEWSFLASH, neither are any of the other MVP candidates. Rose supporters want us to suppress any and all objective evidence we have to help measure that value.
Both Dwight and Dirk rated higher by various +/- analysis (RAPM, Adj +/-). Even without those stats we KNOW that Dirk was on a championship caliber team that utterly fell apart without him in the games he missed. We KNOW that Dwight's impact defensively is unrivaled and even the stats dont fully capture his impact on that end.

This is why I dont get why fans put so much emphasis on Boozer/Noah being out, they had the deepest frontcourt in the league and were well equipped to compensate for those losses. And its not as if both were out simultaneously, for the most part one or the other was out there.

So hes not the best player, hes not more vital since his team doesnt fall apart without him the way they do without Dwight/Dirk. Whats left? His team won more games? Thats a pretty shoddy reason IMO and if not for him being the hot new story, I dont think that would have carried the weight it did.

I basically see it as Rose turned a good team into a contender, Dirk turned a team full of specialist that couldnt function without him into a legit title contender, and Dwight took crap and made them a team that could compete for HCA despite wholesale changes made in season. That doesnt sit well with me.



Oh GM, oh GM, will you sit in my arm chair?

ChicagoJ
06-25-2012, 10:53 AM
Rose led his team to the best record in the nba and he was the main reason they were winning games. No question he should have been MVP.

SteBO
06-25-2012, 11:06 AM
Rose led his team to the best record in the nba and he was the main reason they were winning games. No question he should have been MVP.
And his team wasn't expected to reach the heights that it did. Rose was a key reason for that as well.....

thekmp211
06-25-2012, 11:44 AM
Who?

thibs

thekmp211
06-25-2012, 11:49 AM
Rose led his team to the best record in the nba and he was the main reason they were winning games. No question he should have been MVP.

really? did you watch the bulls this year?

natelpete
06-25-2012, 12:07 PM
Yeah they were so great that they got bounced in the first round of the playoffs without him.

Wrong year

Robby Cano
06-25-2012, 12:23 PM
If Rose deserved it last year than Rondo deserved it this year.

NOBODY thought Celtics had anything left and then they make it a game away from the NBA Finals, all becuase of Rajon Rondo. Rondo is a triple double machine. The past couple of years he has led the BIG 3 to the playoffs and kept THEIR careers going.

At the half-way this season no one expected the Celtics to do what they did.. many people were saying they'll be lucky to make the playoffs. Rondo was the MOST VALUABLE PLAYER in the East this year. It isn't BEST PLAYER, it's MOST VALUABLE, therefore Rondo should've won it.

Without Rondo, the Celtics would've gone nowhere. They would've been in the lottery looking for something and some luck for a high draft pick. Rondo carried this team.

When players went down, Rondo stepped up. When Pierce couldn't score, Rondo did. Rondo made the shots open for the Big 3.. Rondo played good defense, Rondo put up triple doubles often.

Robby Cano
06-25-2012, 12:38 PM
Value wise, I think the Heat still could've done very well with Bosh and Wade and a cast of Miller, Jones, Chalmers, Haslem, etc.

Stinkyoutsider
06-25-2012, 01:11 PM
I think Rose did deserve it but going with him or Howard wouldn't have been wrong either way...

effen5
06-25-2012, 01:47 PM
A lot of Orlando fans thought they should have been co mvps

effen5
06-25-2012, 01:49 PM
really? did you watch the bulls this year?

Yeah but the difference is the front court was actually healthy this year.

Muttman73
06-25-2012, 02:17 PM
I think he won, get over it.

The NBA is a joke in many ways, New Orleans wins the lottery??
The Heat win the title??

C'mon...
it's entertainment and that's all
You want to take this crap serious...good luck with that

What Stearn want's - Stearn get's
It's really just that simple

ChicagoJ
06-25-2012, 02:48 PM
really? did you watch the bulls this year?

Yes, and the MVP was last year. And if you watch those games from last year, many of the games were won because of what rose did. It doesn't matter if someone else or other teammates could have stepped up. Rose was the one who did and the bulls won many games that year because of his play.