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Mile High Champ
06-23-2012, 12:51 PM
Hey guys, Some of you may remember that for the last four years I have conducted a poll at the end of the season that had PSD users vote for the top 10 players at each position. The season is now over and the Heat have been crowned NBA champs which means its time to kick off the off-season player rankings.

A lot has changed since last season. Lebron was labelled by some as Choke Artist in the clutch and now this year had one of the greatest finals performances in recent memory. Let start the discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 4 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best


2012 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings

1) Chris Paul
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)




2011 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings

1) Chris Paul
2) Derrick Rose
3) Deron Williams
4) Russell Westbrook
5) Steve Nash
6) Rajon Rondo
7) Tony Parker
8) Jason Kidd
9) Chauncey Billups
10) Stephen Curry

2010 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Deron Williams
2) Chris Paul
3) Steve Nash
4) Rajon Rondo
5) Derrick Rose
6) Chauncey Billups
7) Russel Westbrook
8) Tony Parker
9) Jason Kidd
10) Tyreke Evans

2009 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Chris Paul
2) Deron Williams
3) Chauncey Billups
4) Tony Parker
5) Steve Nash
6) Derrick Rose
7) Devin Harris
8) Rajon Rondo
9) Jose Calderon
10) Jason Kidd

2008 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Chris Paul
2) Steve Nash
3) Deron Williams
4) Baron Davis
5) Tony Parker
6) Jason Kidd
7) Chauncey Billups
8) Gilbert Arenas
9) Jose Calderon
10) Andre Miller

Mile High Champ
06-23-2012, 12:54 PM
Things are about to get interesting.

SteBO
06-23-2012, 12:56 PM
I'll take Tony Parker here. Led the Spurs to the top seed in the Western Conference while despite injury to Manu Ginobli during the year while being pretty efficient from the field all year. But knowing people, Westbrook may win this one simply because he reached the Finals and Parker didn't this year.

SteBO
06-23-2012, 12:58 PM
Things are about to get interesting.
I agree, but Parker was just phenomenal this year. There was even MVP talk about him despite the Year LeBron was having, and deservingly so.

Swashcuff
06-23-2012, 12:58 PM
Honestly despite the fact that Rose missed a chunk of the season and almost the entire post season due to injury I still think he's quite handily the 2nd best PG in the NBA. How much of a factor is injuries going to play in this I really don't know but all and all IMO there is no disputing that when Rose was healthy this season he was better than anyone else on this list.

I'll withhold my vote for a while but I don't see anyone arguing that anyone on this list was better than Rose was when he was healthy.

Mile High Champ
06-23-2012, 01:02 PM
I am taking Westbrook here. Yes Tony Parker is the other legit option we have here to look at as well but in the end I was too impressed with Westbrook's #'s this year other than the drop in assists. I was pleased to see his eFG% increase in a big way. Also his usage dropped and still managed to be almost just as effective as he was last year. Its tight and I have no issue with Parker going here either.

jimm120
06-23-2012, 01:37 PM
LINNING needs to be on the list! Not saying that I'd vote for him now, but just saying, he should go up there.

EDIT:

And Kyrie Irving too, for that matter.

jimm120
06-23-2012, 01:40 PM
ANd lol. Deron williams just keeps falling and falling every year. His time with the Nets really has been disappointing.

LGhost
06-23-2012, 01:47 PM
Where is John Wall & Irving? Not that I'm gonna vote for either... I don't even know who Lowery is

Since I know D Rose is going to win, I voted for Rondo

justinnum1
06-23-2012, 01:49 PM
Where is John Wall & Irving? Not that I'm gonna vote for either... I don't even know who Lowery is

Since I know D Rose is going to win, I voted for Rondo

:facepalm:

justinnum1
06-23-2012, 01:50 PM
LINNING needs to be on the list! Not saying that I'd vote for him now, but just saying, he should go up there.

EDIT:

And Kyrie Irving too, for that matter.

why? lin isn't even top 15 pg...and it said no homer votes

GSWFanInLA
06-23-2012, 01:55 PM
How do you not know who Lowry is?

jtrinaldi
06-23-2012, 01:58 PM
Other, as in Brandon Jennings.
This poll is a joke without him on the list.

LGhost
06-23-2012, 02:02 PM
C. Paul

R. Rondo

R. Westbrook

D. Rose

D. Williams

S. Nash

T. Lawson

T. Parker

J. Wall

K. Irving

K. Lowry

B. Jennings

If your're going to have Lowry than you might as well include Jennings and even Jarrett Jack...

jimm120
06-23-2012, 02:02 PM
We all know the top are with (not in that exact order)

Paul
Deron
Rose
Westbrook
Rondo

BUT!!!!!! I still think that all other "legit" options such as Lin, Irving, Jennings, should be in the poll by the next round. I mean, if someone like Lowry and Lawson are.......

avrpatsfan
06-23-2012, 02:02 PM
I gotta go Parker here, but Rose is pretty much #2B for me.

Swashcuff
06-23-2012, 02:03 PM
If you're not going to state why a player should be on the poll then STFU and move on. All this whining is extremely annoying.

Swashcuff
06-23-2012, 02:05 PM
We all know the top are with (not in that exact order)

Paul
Deron
Rose
Westbrook
Rondo

BUT!!!!!! I still think that all other "legit" options such as Lin, Irving, Jennings, should be in the poll by the next round. I mean, if someone like Lowry and Lawson are.......

Why on earth should Jeremy Lin be there?

Kyle Lowy was a better defensive PG than almost any this entire season he should be there ahead of Brandon Jennings.

Seriously Lin a legit option? What are you guys smoking.

LGhost
06-23-2012, 02:05 PM
If you're not going to state why a player should be on the poll then STFU and move on. All this whining is extremely annoying.

why make this thread into a stats argument? maybe someone wants them on the poll oh I don't know SO THEY CAN VOTE FOR THEM... derp

justinnum1
06-23-2012, 02:07 PM
C. Paul

R. Rondo

R. Westbrook

D. Rose

D. Williams

S. Nash

T. Lawson

T. Parker

J. Wall

K. Irving

K. Lowry

B. Jennings

If your're going to have Lowry than you might as well include Jennings and even Jarrett Jack...

lmfao, lowry is easily the most underrated pg in the league. jennings is an overrated inefficient chucker and jack is a back up

Swashcuff
06-23-2012, 02:07 PM
why make this thread into a stats argument? maybe someone wants them on the poll oh I don't know SO THEY CAN VOTE FOR THEM... derp

WTF not a single person has said anything about stats :confused:

LGhost
06-23-2012, 02:10 PM
WTF not a single person has said anything about stats :confused:

"If you're not going to state why a player should be on the poll then STFU and move on. All this whining is extremely annoying."

You're right but I rather hear about their game than their eye color

nicegoing
06-23-2012, 02:19 PM
Gotta go with Westbrook. He was the second best player on the second best team, played very well in the playoffs. He is durable, has never missed a game, which I think is pretty much the only thing that puts him above Rose for this season.

Rose played in 39 of 66 games and missed the playoffs, except for 1 game due to injury. No one can deny he is a great talent, but he and Westbrook put up similar numbers, and Westbrook didn't get injured, which is why I gotta go with Westbrook.

Swashcuff
06-23-2012, 02:19 PM
"If you're not going to state why a player should be on the poll then STFU and move on. All this whining is extremely annoying."

You're right but I rather hear about their game than their eye color

Kyle Lowry when healthy defended the PG better than any other player this season.

When Jeremy Lin became a starter the Knicks played some of their best basketball this season without their best player on the team.

Kyrie Irving has changed the entire dynamic of the Cleveland Cavaliers with his leadership from the first whistle to the very last whistle and for his age and experience is one of the best floor generals in the NBA.

Do I need to give you more examples of making a case for a player.

Stating why a player should be on the poll isn't about just using stats an entire logical case can be made without the use of stats.

Someone with your intellect however may not understand that nor how to use stats.

At no point in this thread did anyone bring stats into any argument. Its going to be brought and rightfully so but if you want to make a case for a player being on the poll at least say more than he should be there and expect anyone to care. Either state why or STFU.

PS apparently you don't understand the difference between the words STATE and STAT.

LGhost
06-23-2012, 02:22 PM
Kyle Lowry when healthy defended the PG better than any other player this season.

Rondo is a better defender


When Jeremy Lin became a starter the Knicks played some of their best basketball this season without their best player on the team.

That had nothing to do with Lin

Kyrie Irving has changed the entire dynamic of the Cleveland Cavaliers with his leadership from the first whistle to the very last whistle and for his age and experience is one of the best floor generals in the NBA.

Everyone knows why this guy should be on the list

Do I need to give you more examples of making a case for a player.

Stating why a player should be on the poll isn't about just using stats an entire logical case can be made without the use of stats.

Someone with your intellect however may not understand that nor how to use stats.

At no point in this thread did anyone bring stats into any argument. Its going to be brought and rightfully so but if you want to make a case for a player being on the poll at least say more than he should be there and expect anyone to care. Either state why or STFU.

PS apparently you don't understand the difference between the words STATE and STAT.

lol - u went ham in the paint

scribble scrabble junk text etc...

apparently you don't know how arguments are started

PatsSoxKnicks
06-23-2012, 02:29 PM
Honestly despite the fact that Rose missed a chunk of the season and almost the entire post season due to injury I still think he's quite handily the 2nd best PG in the NBA. How much of a factor is injuries going to play in this I really don't know but all and all IMO there is no disputing that when Rose was healthy this season he was better than anyone else on this list.

I'll withhold my vote for a while but I don't see anyone arguing that anyone on this list was better than Rose was when he was healthy.

On a per minute basis (not taking into account injuries), Rose was the 2nd best PG this year. However, when you look at overall counting stats like Win Shares, Wins Above Replacement Level or Estimated Wins Added, Westbrook was the 2nd best PG because he played every game and wasn't injured (like Rose was). He also contributed more to his team by not being injured and of course, the Thunder ended up going farther (obviously with lots of help from Durant and Harden).

However, the final reason I would go with Westbrook is because Rose is not likely to be the better player next year since a) he may miss some time next year due to the ACL injury and b) even when he does come back, it'll take about a year for him to fully trust the knee again and become Derrick Rose (ACL injuries take a year to come back from and then another year for the player to reach previous levels of play). So we likely won't see Rose play at the level he's playing at until 2013-14. And even then, we have no idea what types of lingering affects the ACL will have on his playing style. So for me, the safe bet is to go with Westbrook. It's unfortunate what happened to Rose and if he's healthy, he's better but he isn't and we're not likely to see 100% healthy Rose for another 2 years.

Swashcuff
06-23-2012, 02:30 PM
lol - u went ham in the paint

scribble scrabble junk text etc...

apparently you don't know how arguments are started

Okay since you have proven that you know nothing about basketball I'm going to ignore you from this point on in this thread.

ManRam
06-23-2012, 02:38 PM
I love Russy almost as much as anyone can, and I think he'd be basically the exact same player as Rose as a #1 option, but I still think it's Rose by the slightest of margins.

Chacarron
06-23-2012, 02:40 PM
If we are voting based on this past season, I'll vote for Russell Westbrook.

b@llhog24
06-23-2012, 02:44 PM
If you're not going to state why a player should be on the poll then STFU and move on. All this whining is extremely annoying.

This.


why make this thread into a stats argument? maybe someone wants them on the poll oh I don't know SO THEY CAN VOTE FOR THEM... derp

You don't need stats to make an arguement. :confused:

LGhost
06-23-2012, 02:45 PM
If you're not going to state why a player should be on the poll then STFU and move on. All this whining is extremely annoying.

awwww, someone is annoyed on a message board - STOP THE PRESSES!!! "Guy reads what he doesn't want to read and gets annoyed" Headline that **** - oh wait no one gives a ****

I was trying to be nice about it but whatever

Swashcuff
06-23-2012, 02:46 PM
On a per minute basis (not taking into account injuries), Rose was the 2nd best PG this year. However, when you look at overall counting stats like Win Shares, Wins Above Replacement Level or Estimated Wins Added, Westbrook was the 2nd best PG because he played every game and wasn't injured (like Rose was). He also contributed more to his team by not being injured and of course, the Thunder ended up going farther (obviously with lots of help from Durant and Harden).

However, the final reason I would go with Westbrook is because Rose is not likely to be the better player next year since a) he may miss some time next year due to the ACL injury and b) even when he does come back, it'll take about a year for him to fully trust the knee again and become Derrick Rose (ACL injuries take a year to come back from and then another year for the player to reach previous levels of play). So we likely won't see Rose play at the level he's playing at until 2013-14. And even then, we have no idea what types of lingering affects the ACL will have on his playing style. So for me, the safe bet is to go with Westbrook. It's unfortunate what happened to Rose and if he's healthy, he's better but he isn't and we're not likely to see 100% healthy Rose for another 2 years.

The very thought process I have but its just so hard for me to penalize Rose for being injured.

LGhost
06-23-2012, 02:47 PM
This.



You don't need stats to make an arguement. :confused:

on this message board you do :confused:

b@llhog24
06-23-2012, 03:02 PM
on this message board you do :confused:

Depends on how hollistic you want your analysis to be. It helps, but it doesn't tell you anything that didn't happen in the game, so you can make a case (albeit a less convincing one without it).

b@llhog24
06-23-2012, 03:04 PM
Rose is the better player to be honest, Westbrook had the better season.

Kashmir13579
06-23-2012, 03:22 PM
Its Tony Parker for me. Should Rose even get considerations this high?

ManRam
06-23-2012, 03:40 PM
Its Tony Parker for me. Should Rose even get considerations this high?

Why not? Who's a better PG than him, and why?


Unless you aren't going to vote for him over guys because of his injury. But with that logic you shouldn't vote for him at all. Rose was the second best PG when healthy. Russy and TP weren't far behind...but at the very least I don't get why he wouldn't be considered....unless again it's because of injuries.

Who are you taking here?

http://i45.tinypic.com/jzi6gj.jpg

LJEATON26
06-23-2012, 03:45 PM
I voted Westbrook over Rose for the simple fact that Westbrook has never missed a game. Statistically they are damn near identical though.

Losoway
06-23-2012, 04:04 PM
how the hell is chris paul better then derrick rose??????/

Catfish1314
06-23-2012, 04:11 PM
Where is John Wall & Irving? Not that I'm gonna vote for either... I don't even know who Lowery is

Since I know D Rose is going to win, I voted for Rondo

A one dimensional, inefficient turnover machine like John Wall has no business near this list. There are easily ten better point guards in the league even if there are only a handful more talented.

I was going to vote strictly based on point guard and not player, but I'll actually go Parker here. He was the best player on a Western Conference Finals team and he outplayed Russell Westbrook in that series even though the Spurs came out on the losing side. He's the third best closer at the point guard position in the NBA behind only Paul and Rose, but Derrick missed 27 games this year and frequently played hurt or rusty.

Based on this last season and the playoffs, my vote goes to Parker.

Bruno
06-23-2012, 04:11 PM
obviously, MHC is going to do what he's going to do with the overall rankings.

But the Westbrook question is why I think his method of determining overall ranking is flawed. Do I think Westbrook is a better overall point guard than Rajon Rondo? No, for many reasons, main one being, he's not a true PG. BUT, do I think that Westbrook is the better overall player than Rondo? Yes, he just doesn't serve the role of PG as fittingly.

I know it's hard for a lot of people to get that, but it makes perfect sense. This vote will be difficult for me. I think Rondo is the better PG, but I think Westbrook is the better player. I'd like to vote Rondo ahead of Westbrook here in the PG rankings, but I'd take Westbrook in the overall player rankings.

Anyone else feel the same?




:confused:

What's up with all these labels? Whether Westbrook is a true or a false PG is the the question. The question is who played the best at the Point Guard position this season (the position Russell Westbrook played virtually every minute at this season). He guarded the opposing PGs and was guarded by them. They are his peers.

The question is simple. Who was better than whom at the position they played primarily this past season.

Is Dirk a "True PF" or is KD a "True SF" because people can say otherwise. Are we going to say that in his earlier days Dirk shouldn't be argued over Elton Brand because he didn't play like a Power Forward?

IMO once a player played a certain position for the majority of the season he should be classed with the players that he matched up against for that season.

This is not a debate about he is more natural or pure for their position but rather who is the better/best player at the position.
As I said.

Dade County
06-23-2012, 04:27 PM
rose didn't really play this year & D will is a after thought playing for Nj.... Sooooo

Wild Wild West it is

Nice work in the finals sir.

Dade County
06-23-2012, 04:28 PM
how the hell is chris paul better then derrick rose??????/

He just is.

Dade County
06-23-2012, 04:30 PM
Rose is the better player to be honest, Westbrook had the better season.

I think west might have reached rose talent level.... We will see.

ManRam
06-23-2012, 04:41 PM
how the hell is chris paul better then derrick rose??????/

Better passer, shooter, defender. Rose will score a bit more...but when Paul wants to take over a game, no one in the league is better. He's also much more efficient in doing so.


So, I ask you, how the hell is Rose better than Paul!?

PrettyBoyJ
06-23-2012, 04:42 PM
Ill go with Tony Parker here.. With Derick Rose injured all season and Deron Williams playing on the Nets I'd five the nod to him

SugeKnight
06-23-2012, 04:43 PM
Am I crazy for thinking Steve Nash has a legitimate shot at being #2?

Anyway, I took durability into consideration and voted westbrook

DR_1
06-23-2012, 05:08 PM
I'm suprised Rose is winning here in spite of all the injuries

Swashcuff
06-23-2012, 05:10 PM
As I said.

Honestly you're trying to further label a position when the system is quite simple.

I'll reiterate the part you bolded and underlined. This is not a debate of who is more of a natural at their position this is a debate of who has played the best at that position.

If you want to change the debate to suit your needs that fine but that's a totally different discussion all together.

justinnum1
06-23-2012, 05:10 PM
how the hell is chris paul better then derrick rose??????/

not sure if serious

DR_1
06-23-2012, 05:13 PM
how the hell is chris paul better then derrick rose??????/

Injuries

Chronz
06-23-2012, 06:05 PM
Westbrook had a better year than Rose, will have a better season than Rose next year. How is he losing to a guy we wont be seeing anytime soon?

Glen20
06-23-2012, 06:07 PM
the measuring stick for point guards sure has changed

DR_1
06-23-2012, 06:14 PM
:laugh2: OK Chronz

ManRam
06-23-2012, 06:15 PM
:laugh2: OK Chronz

What did he say that wasn't true. I mean, I voted for Rose...but WB did have a better season this year, and because of injuries, he WILL have a better season next year.


But yes. Laughing is going to convince us you're right and he's wrong :rolleyes:


I voted purely on who I think is the better player, and I think it's Rose by a tiny margin. I'm not including injuries, but it makes sense that some are.

ManRam
06-23-2012, 06:20 PM
Westbrook had a better year than Rose, will have a better season than Rose next year. How is he losing to a guy we wont be seeing anytime soon?

Because he's not quite better than him. I'm voting for the best PGs...and I think Rose is a slightly (by the slightest of margins) better PG. :shrug:

Different viewpoints I guess...

unleashthebeast
06-23-2012, 06:40 PM
We are basing this on this past year, so i would go westbrook with parker not far behind

Glen20
06-23-2012, 06:45 PM
shouldn't mario chalmers be on this list?

Swashcuff
06-23-2012, 07:33 PM
shouldn't mario chalmers be on this list?

Chris Paul, Derrick Rose, Russell Westbrook, Steve Nash, Ty Lawson, Brandon Jennings, Jrue Holiday, Jarret Jack, Rajon Rondo, Tony Parker, Kyle Lowry, Jose Calderon, Deron Williams, Goran Dragic, Ricky Rubio, Andre Miller, John Wall, Mike Conley, Raymond Felton, Devin Harris, Jeff Teague, Kyrie Irving and Stephen Curry are all better than Mario Chalmbers.

Guys like D.J. Augustin, Jeremy Lin, Darren Collison, Jason Kidd, Isaiah Thomas, J.J. Barea and Jameer Nelson are also very debatable. So in short NO Chalmers should not be on this list. :crazy:

Before you say that you'd rather have Chalmers on the Heat instead of Dragic or Felton etc remember that's not what anyone wants to know and Chamlers isn't a top 20 PG much less a top 2.

b@llhog24
06-23-2012, 07:36 PM
Chris Paul, Derrick Rose, Russell Westbrook, Steve Nash, Ty Lawson, Brandon Jennings, Jrue Holiday, Jarret Jack, Rajon Rondo, Tony Parker, Kyle Lowry, Jose Calderon, Deron Williams, Goran Dragic, Ricky Rubio, Andre Miller, John Wall, Mike Conley, Raymond Felton, Devin Harris, Jeff Teague, Kyrie Irving and Stephen Curry are all better than Mario Chalmbers.

Guys like D.J. Augustin, Jeremy Lin, Darren Collison, Jason Kidd, Isaiah Thomas, J.J. Barea and Jameer Nelson are also very debatable. So in short NO Chalmers should not be on this list. :crazy:

Before you say that you'd rather have Chalmers on the Heat instead of Dragic or Felton etc remember that's not what anyone wants to know and Chamlers isn't a top 20 PG much less a top 2.

Dragic's legit, he be asinine to say that.

ManRam
06-23-2012, 07:37 PM
shouldn't mario chalmers be on this list?


Why, because he won a ring?

:laugh:

yaswaggin
06-23-2012, 07:55 PM
this is a tough one. I voted for westbrook:

Westbrook: Per: 23 PPG: 23 on 46% shooting 5.5 APG 4.6 RPG as a SECOND OPTION.

also had almost identical stats in the postseason, including a 43 point game in game 4 of the nba finals

Rose: Per: 23.10 PPG: 21.8 on 44% shooting, 7.9 APG, 3.4 RPG as a 1ST OPTION.

injured for playoffs, so can't debate that


Rose vs Westbrook: Both had almost identical seasons, with rose having a slightly more efficient season.

Rose did all this as the 1st option with no other player on his team who can create his shot

Westbrook did this as the 2nd option with Durant and Harden also as premiere scorers.

What seperated westbrook from rose to me was although he didn't have the pressure to be the main option, many times he did lead his team in scoring for that particular game.

he and durant carried that team on its back offensively, with harden cleaning up. On the other hand, while rose did have to carry that team, they won many games without him that was until the playoffs and they ran into an 8th seed that was much better than a typical 8th seed and a huge mismatch without rose due to their speed. While rose also did not have great scorers around him like westbrook did with durant and harden, he did have some very good 3 pt shooters in deng and korver just to name a few and other guys on that team can catch and out or come off screens like rip while it was mainly durant and westbrook and harden who carried that teams.

Westbrook and Rose are also both very good defensively, so thats a wash


just my .02

jrm2054
06-23-2012, 09:01 PM
I voted for Rondo as a pure PG. Rose is hurt and that drops him IMO. It came down to Westbrook adn Rondo i went Rondo, and will go Westbrook 3rd

Evolution23
06-23-2012, 09:05 PM
What have you done for me recently? Rondo has been amazing the whole season and the playoffs.

Glen20
06-23-2012, 09:05 PM
Why, because he won a ring?

:laugh:

he's got better finals stats than CP3 and Rose... :p

Chronz
06-23-2012, 09:44 PM
Because he's not quite better than him. I'm voting for the best PGs...and I think Rose is a slightly (by the slightest of margins) better PG. :shrug:

Different viewpoints I guess...

But if hes only slightly better then doesnt the fact that he had a worse year and is an unknown for the next, give WB the right to be ranked ahead of him TODAY?

Bruno
06-23-2012, 10:47 PM
Honestly you're trying to further label a position when the system is quite simple.

I'll reiterate the part you bolded and underlined. This is not a debate of who is more of a natural at their position this is a debate of who has played the best at that position.

If you want to change the debate to suit your needs that fine but that's a totally different discussion all together.

this has nothing to do with my personal leanings. you taking this as an opportunity to try to tell me that it does exposes yours. try again.

the point of my post went over your head, and i'm not gona hold you hand to guide you through it. In my OP, I asked if anyone agreed. not if anyone disagreed. get it?

NYKalltheway
06-23-2012, 11:40 PM
Tony Parker please

Sportfan
06-24-2012, 12:35 AM
Westbrook and Rondo are 2-3

greg_ory_2005
06-24-2012, 01:21 AM
Gotta go with Westy here.

Avenged
06-24-2012, 03:02 AM
Went with Parker due to having an outstanding season nobody expected and carried the Spurs to the best record in the league.

Knicks21
06-24-2012, 03:27 AM
I like D rose here.

Catfish1314
06-24-2012, 05:06 AM
I know Rose is running away with this, but I don't understand how Westy has 27 votes to Parker's 10.

One series should not have the heaviest bearing on these rankings, but Parker did outplay Westbrook in the Western Conference Finals and their postseasons prior and regular seasons were quite comparable statistically (Parker gets the edge in most areas).

LakersMaster24
06-24-2012, 06:02 AM
Why do people simply ignore what Rondo does in playoffs every year?

aussie
06-24-2012, 06:41 AM
How is Derrick Rose winning this...he is 3rd at best but should fall to 4th behind CP3, Parker, Westbrook even behind Rondo

SaimuKala
06-24-2012, 06:56 AM
Went with D-Rose...

CP3
Rose
Rondo
Parker
Westy

69centers
06-24-2012, 10:45 AM
Rose wasn't even top 5 this past year, and he won't be full strength until at least 3/4 of the way through the season, if he is at all in the upcoming year. LMAO at everyone voting for him at 2. It's clearly homer/popularity votes in here.

Antipod
06-24-2012, 11:08 AM
As the best Point Guard, after CP, Rondo is the second best !

nicegoing
06-24-2012, 12:06 PM
I really thought this would be a lot closer.

LAKERMANIA
06-24-2012, 12:14 PM
It's gotta be Rondo here..

tredigs
06-24-2012, 12:19 PM
There's probably no single more important attribute a player can have than his fitness level and durability. Russell Westbrook is second to exactly zero players in the NBA in that regard, and that has to be taken into huge consideration when determining a players value.

There is absolutely no way you can argue D. Rose over Westbrook this past season, I can't even believe this is a debate much less a Rose runaway. If you have to begin every sentence about a player with 'when healthy I think...', then you're not better than a guy who put up monster performances all the way through the NBA Finals, never once missing a game (he never has missed a game) or playing less than 25 minutes in a game.

The major knock on him was his turnovers and composure as a floor general, but we saw that mitigated hugely in the playoffs by only turning it over a solid 2.5 times a game and owning countless games for huge stretches. They could not have sniffed the finals without his play.

Now, a vote for Tony Parker here based on last season makes a lot of sense. Led a Spurs team without Manu Ginobili for the majority of the season to ANOTHER consecutive 50 win season in a strike-shortened year and finished top 5 in MVP voting (even receiving a small handful of 1st place votes). I wavered between him and Westbrook here, especially considering he was outplayed by TP for large stretches.

But Rose? No, sorry. Maybe again in 2 years when he's hopefully healthy. Clearly not this year. If you can't play, you're 100% useless. That's the unfortunate reality of pro sports.

KH12
06-24-2012, 12:30 PM
D-Rose. :cool:

UKblazers
06-24-2012, 12:44 PM
I'll take arguably the best athlete in the NBA in Westbrook.I could see an argument for Parker but if I swapped the two players I truly feel that the Spurs would of played in the finals.

I can't pick Rose because nobody knows if or how much athleticism he'll lose following the injury, besides I never felt the gap between him and Westbrook was ever that big.

Swashcuff
06-24-2012, 01:24 PM
As the best Point Guard, after CP, Rondo is the second best !

So in that case I figure Dirk, Love, Bosh and Gasol aren't top 10 Power Forwards and Kevin Durant isn't a Small Forward?

I mean seriously how foolish is this whole labelling thing going to get. Its simple if a player does all the duties of a PG (bringing the ball up the floor as the primary ball handler, initiating the offense and controls the flow of the offense among others) as well as being guarded by all those on this list and guarding them. They are all point guards and they should be judged as such. Different styles but it doesn't change the fact that that is the position in which he plays.

Avenged
06-24-2012, 01:31 PM
Well Rose won it..

on to #3

Swashcuff
06-24-2012, 01:41 PM
There's probably no single more important attribute a player can have than his fitness level and durability. Russell Westbrook is second to exactly zero players in the NBA in that regard, and that has to be taken into huge consideration when determining a players value.

There is absolutely no way you can argue D. Rose over Westbrook this past season, I can't even believe this is a debate much less a Rose runaway. If you have to begin every sentence about a player with 'when healthy I think...', then you're not better than a guy who put up monster performances all the way through the NBA Finals, never once missing a game (he never has missed a game) or playing less than 25 minutes in a game.

The major knock on him was his turnovers and composure as a floor general, but we saw that mitigated hugely in the playoffs by only turning it over a solid 2.5 times a game and owning countless games for huge stretches. They could not have sniffed the finals without his play.

Now, a vote for Tony Parker here based on last season makes a lot of sense. Led a Spurs team without Manu Ginobili for the majority of the season to ANOTHER consecutive 50 win season in a strike-shortened year and finished top 5 in MVP voting (even receiving a small handful of 1st place votes). I wavered between him and Westbrook here, especially considering he was outplayed by TP for large stretches.

But Rose? No, sorry. Maybe again in 2 years when he's hopefully healthy. Clearly not this year. If you can't play, you're 100% useless. That's the unfortunate reality of pro sports.

Tell me this. Where would you rank Rose? Would you have him in your top 10? From your reasoning I gather that he shouldn't be anywhere near the top 10 since there are players that have him

Honestly IMO when I think of this past season I can't think of any PG not named CP3 that was a better player than Derrick Rose. I can obviously think of quite a few who had better seasons than he did but that didn't make them better players.

I see this thread as asking the simple question who was the best player over the course of the last season. Rose would lose out here because he didn't play for a big chunk of the season however I'm not going to ask as if he wasn't any good when he played.

I didn't vote in this thread but I can see a credible argument for Rose over anyone else on this list just based on a productivity perspective when they actually played.

I have been a bigger Westbrook defender than most here on PSD but honestly if you were to ask me who was better than whom I'd say Derrick Rose but if you were to ask me who had the better season I'd say Westbrook, Parker and Rondo.

We need to clarify what exactly is being debated because I really can't say how someone can say that Tony Parker, Rajon Rondo, Deron Williams or even my boy Westbrook are better players than Derrick Rose was this past season.

DR_1
06-24-2012, 02:19 PM
I think if you miss "X" amount of games you should be exempt from these polls. People were confused, it was like trying to rank Peyton Manning after his neck injury.

SlimKid
06-24-2012, 02:22 PM
I voted strictly based off this season, not an overall holistic view of who I think is the better player given a level playing field. If it was overall, not including injuries, I would have gone with Rose.. I took the question as who was better this year, not who is the better player when healthy.. Toss up for me, went with Parker, with Westy second.. Clarification as to what were actually voting on would make this easier to gauge..

SeoulBeatz
06-24-2012, 02:42 PM
LINNING needs to be on the list! Not saying that I'd vote for him now, but just saying, he should go up there.

EDIT:

And Kyrie Irving too, for that matter.

Lin has no business being in the top 10.

And Derrick Rose is the 2nd best PG in the NBA.

Funny how people forget just how good he is when he's healthy. The 2nd most electrifying player in the NBA behind Lebron and I guarantee the Bulls would have been in the ECF had Rose been 100% (and I hate the Bulls, mostly cause of their fans).

Kashmir13579
06-24-2012, 02:45 PM
Tony Parker and The Spurs never get their due credit. He'll be lucky to get voted in the top 5.

Avenged
06-24-2012, 02:46 PM
Tony Parker and The Spurs never get their due credit. He'll be lucky to get voted in the top 5.

Yup.. He has a legitimate case for #2 but going by the poll results, he'll probably end up at #6.

Kashmir13579
06-24-2012, 02:50 PM
I don't like all the Rose votes either. I get that he was good when he played but so was Rubio and Lin. They will almost certainly be penalized in this poll for lack of a full season.

I understand why people still have him at 2 put i just personally disagree with it. Knowing what we know now, my guess is most people would take a several PGs over Rose this season.

Kashmir13579
06-24-2012, 02:50 PM
Yup.. He has a legitimate case for #2 but going by the poll results, he'll probably end up at #6.

Yeah i voted for him here.

Jets012
06-24-2012, 02:51 PM
The # of votes Rondo has is quite scary. IMO the guy is not even in the top 5. I would easily take Rose and Williams over him and I would take Parker and Westbrook as well. Underrating Williams and Parker hard here

Kashmir13579
06-24-2012, 02:54 PM
The # of votes Rondo has is quite scary. IMO the guy is not even in the top 5. I would easily take Rose and Williams over him and I would take Parker and Westbrook as well. Underrating Williams and Parker hard here

I think the number of votes that aren't for Parker or Westbrook is scary.

SlimKid
06-24-2012, 02:57 PM
I think the number of votes that aren't for Parker or Westbrook is scary.

Agree! I knew Westy would get his, but I thought TP would get way more love than 12 or so votes.. I took Parker here and don't regret it..

SeoulBeatz
06-24-2012, 03:32 PM
Rose wasn't even top 5 this past year, and he won't be full strength until at least 3/4 of the way through the season, if he is at all in the upcoming year. LMAO at everyone voting for him at 2. It's clearly homer/popularity votes in here.

It's really not though. I base it on this criteria, if I'm building a team, which PG would I want the most?

CP3 would obv be first,

and Rose should be second.

Rondo had an incredible playoffs, but he's still not better than Rose or Cp3

Baller1
06-24-2012, 04:30 PM
Westbrook.

ManRam
06-24-2012, 04:35 PM
There's probably no single more important attribute a player can have than his fitness level and durability. Russell Westbrook is second to exactly zero players in the NBA in that regard, and that has to be taken into huge consideration when determining a players value.

There is absolutely no way you can argue D. Rose over Westbrook this past season, I can't even believe this is a debate much less a Rose runaway. If you have to begin every sentence about a player with 'when healthy I think...', then you're not better than a guy who put up monster performances all the way through the NBA Finals, never once missing a game (he never has missed a game) or playing less than 25 minutes in a game.

The major knock on him was his turnovers and composure as a floor general, but we saw that mitigated hugely in the playoffs by only turning it over a solid 2.5 times a game and owning countless games for huge stretches. They could not have sniffed the finals without his play.

Now, a vote for Tony Parker here based on last season makes a lot of sense. Led a Spurs team without Manu Ginobili for the majority of the season to ANOTHER consecutive 50 win season in a strike-shortened year and finished top 5 in MVP voting (even receiving a small handful of 1st place votes). I wavered between him and Westbrook here, especially considering he was outplayed by TP for large stretches.

But Rose? No, sorry. Maybe again in 2 years when he's hopefully healthy. Clearly not this year. If you can't play, you're 100% useless. That's the unfortunate reality of pro sports.

I don't disagree with much of this.

But the OP says vote for the best player...and I think Rose is the better player. He had problems this year, bad, and then tore his ACL (that's a fluke injury...if anyone landed like that it would tear). But he's still the better player IMO. He didn't have the better season, and he won't have a better 2012-2013 season..but he's still the better player.

That's how I see it. :shrug:

I'm just voting for the best players. Last season matters, but Rose didn't have as good of a season because he was hurt...not because he was a worse player than those guys. He still remains that.

I don't think it's wrong to factor in injuries so immensely. That matters. But it doesn't make a player worse than another player and maybe I think that because I'm not ready to say Rose is injury prone either...

D-Leethal
06-24-2012, 04:40 PM
Rondo

Swashcuff
06-24-2012, 05:40 PM
Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER.


REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best


Honestly if that isn't Derrick Rose then I don't know who is. Vote for the best player. Are you guys seriously going to sit here and argue that other players are better than Rose?

I'd love to see the facts. Other players had better seasons no doubt and health should certainly be taken into consideration but it isn't as if Rose missed the entire season. The Bulls were 33-7 when he played for crying out loud. He was certainly the 2nd best PG in the league.

Honestly I have no beef with someone choosing anyone over Rose here because of their personal reasoning and his injuries but to say that Derrick Rose isn't a top 5 point guard in the NBA is absolutely ridiculous.

Name me a player on this list who is better than Derrick Rose and I'd love some evidence to support it.

N3TS
06-24-2012, 06:57 PM
When Healthy D-Rose.

tredigs
06-24-2012, 07:05 PM
Honestly if that isn't Derrick Rose then I don't know who is. Vote for the best player. Are you guys seriously going to sit here and argue that other players are better than Rose?

I'd love to see the facts. Other players had better seasons no doubt and health should certainly be taken into consideration but it isn't as if Rose missed the entire season. The Bulls were 33-7 when he played for crying out loud. He was certainly the 2nd best PG in the league.

Honestly I have no beef with someone choosing anyone over Rose here because of their personal reasoning and his injuries but to say that Derrick Rose isn't a top 5 point guard in the NBA is absolutely ridiculous.

Name me a player on this list who is better than Derrick Rose and I'd love some evidence to support it.

Well here's their stats this year when Rose was actually playing:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=rosede01&y1=2012&p2=westbru01&y2=2012

To say he's "certainly" the 2nd best point guard in the league is a clear stretch. Stats are already close, eye test is already close. Westbrook is the better rebounder, especially on the offensive glass (and in countless big moments) and the better shooter. He also won't chuck his team out of games from 3 like we've seen Derrick do. Derrick is the more controlled playmaker and a great team defender. But Westbrook has also shown to be a terrific defender and just all around active on both ends of the court for 40 minutes a game throughout the playoffs. They're very close when both are at their best.

And again, durability DOES matter. It matters more than every other aspect of the game. You can still argue Rose over players that he is clearly better then despite his injuries (because it's still possible for him to have a healthy/full career, or when he comes back next year he will almost certainly step in and be better than), but I don't see how you can argue him over the guys that are right there with him that play every day and contribute to their teams deep playoff runs. That's my take on it. And right now Westbrook and TP can play just as dominantly as D. Rose. Only they played all of last year, and should play all of next year. Rose won't. At the least didn't.

Some people said if they're building a team right now they'll take Rose over Westbrook? After an ACL tear and 4+ different injuries throughout the year prior to that in which he chose to sit out rather than push through and play - but still got hurt again and again? You're insane. He's an amazing talent, but really no more so than Westbrook - especially as Westbrook continued to learn/grow on the biggest of stages. That's a lesson D. Rose may not be initiated to for quite a few years, if ever. And it's invaluable.

I would really like to see a GM poll on that particular question. I think it would rightfully be 90% in favor of Westbrook. You can't coach durability, and it goes far beyond blind luck. Some people are just built better and more durable than others, and based on Westbrook's 100% flawless record of missing games dating back to high school, it's clear he is one of those special John Stockton type talents from a durability standpoint. Can he still get hurt? Of course. But it's far less likely to happen than virtually anyone else, especially Rose. He is a machine. Period. And as such, until Derrick can get back out there for an entire season and try to prove otherwise, he is better than Derrick Rose.

Chronz
06-24-2012, 07:45 PM
I dont see why we are giving Rose the benefit of the doubt that he will be up to speed from day 1. If its a close comparison then we should give credit to the guy who we KNOW is still at that level of play. It may take 2 years before we actually see the Rose we are accustomed to seeing.

Swashcuff
06-24-2012, 07:47 PM
Well here's their stats this year when Rose was actually playing:




G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
D. Rose 2011-12 23 39 39 35.3 7.7 17.8 .435 1.4 4.4 .312 5.0 6.1 .812 0.7 2.7 3.4 7.9 0.9 0.7 3.1 1.3 21.8
66 66 35.3 8.8 19.2 .457 0.9 3.0 .316 5.2 6.3 .823 1.5 3.1 4.6 5.5 1.7 0.3 3.6 2.2 23.6

G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
23 39 1375 23.0 .532 .473 2.1 8.4 5.3 40.3 1.4 1.4 12.9 30.5 112 101 4.1 2.0 6.0 .211
23 66 2331 22.9 .538 .481 5.0 9.4 7.4 29.8 2.5 0.7 14.2 32.7 108 105 5.5 2.4 7.9 .163



To say he's "certainly" the 2nd best point guard in the league is a clear stretch. Stats are already close, eye test is already close. Westbrook is the better rebounder, especially on the offensive glass (and in countless big moments) and the better shooter. He also won't chuck his team out of games from 3 like we've seen Derrick do. Derrick is the more controlled playmaker and a great team defender. But Westbrook has also shown to be a terrific defender and just all around active on both ends of the court for 40 minutes a game throughout the playoffs. They're very close when both are at their best.

Its extremely hard for me to argue against Westbrook but Tre the stats are in fact in Rose's favour aren't they not? Consider the fact as well that Rose played injured for a solid chunk of the games in which he was on the floor and he's still statistically better than those other players. Not to mention that he plays in a system where he's the only legit offensive threat (which is figured to help not hurt Parker's and Westy's #s) and still plays with comparable efficiency.

When you factor what his team looks like when he's on the floor as opposed to when he's off.

Rose has a better ASPM and a better Simple Rating than both Parker and Westy. A considerably better in that regard.

ASPM (Advanced Statistical +/-) (http://godismyjudgeok.com/DStats/aspm-and-vorp/):

TeamMar Pos G MP ASPM O ASPM D ASPM VORP VORP Gm
Rose 7.92 1 39 1375 5.46 5.16 -0.31 4.14 6.91
RW 6.68 1 66 2331 4.31 4.13 -0.18 6.05 6.06
Parker 7.63 1 60 1923 3.89 4.68 0.78 4.83 5.24

http://www.82games.com/1112/ROLRTG8.HTM


Player Net PER SRtg
Rose 13.2 10.4
Westy 8.6 7.4
Parker 5 6.5

A deeper look into the stats and I think we can safely say that Rose was indeed better than both Parker and Westy when he was on the floor.


But durability DOES matter. It matters more than every other aspect of the game. You can still argue Rose over players that he is clearly better then despite his injuries (because it's still possible for him to have a healthy/full career), but I don't see how you can argue him over the guys that are right there with him. That's my take on it.

I hear you because obviously you can't be the best if you're not on the floor. Thing is though what about when you're on the floor. Are those players better than you? This past season Westbrook and Parker weren't.


And right now Westbrook and TP can play just as dominantly as D. Rose. Only they played all of last year, and should play next year. Rose won't.

Some people said if they're building a team right now they'll take Rose over Westbrook? After an ACL tear and 4+ different injuries throughout the year prior to that in which he chose to sit out rather than push through and play - but still got hurt again and again? You're insane. He's an amazing talent, but really no more so than Westbrook - especially as Westbrook continued to learn/grow on the biggest of stages. That's a lesson D. Rose may not be initiated to for quite a few years, if ever. And it's invaluable.

I would really like to see a GM poll on that particular question. I think it would rightfully be 90% in favor of Westbrook. You can't coach durability, and it goes far beyond blind luck. Some people are just built better and more durable than others, and based on Westbrook's 100% flawless record of missing games dating back to high school, it's clear he is one of those special John Stockton type talents. Can he still get hurt? Of course. But it's far less likely to happen than virtually anyone else, especially Rose. He is a machine. Period. And as such, until Derrick can get back out there for an entire season and try to prove otherwise, he is better than Derrick Rose.

I respect your opinion as much as the other but as per this discussion none of this is really relevant. MHC clearly states vote for the player who was the best player and not the potential to be the best. Due to Rose's injury Parker and Westy are potentially going to be better than him this upcoming season, doesn't change the fact that he was once a better player than them.

Swashcuff
06-24-2012, 07:52 PM
I dont see why we are giving Rose the benefit of the doubt that he will be up to speed from day 1. If its a close comparison then we should give credit to the guy who we KNOW is still at that level of play. It may take 2 years before we actually see the Rose we are accustomed to seeing.

Chronz read MHC's opening post in every single one of these threads. It's straight forward. These threads have nothing to do with predictions or expectations for the future. Its really quite simple.

tredigs
06-24-2012, 08:10 PM
Swash, how many games would somebody have to miss before you consider it a detriment to them as a player? If somebody plays 11 game throughout the year, but they were great in those 11 games, are they better than the next best player if that next best player goes 82?

Swashcuff
06-24-2012, 08:28 PM
Swash, how many games would somebody have to miss before you consider it a detriment to them as a player? If somebody plays 11 game throughout the year, but they were great in those 11 games, are they better than the next best player if that next best player goes 82?

This first is a perplexing question for me and was the reason as to why I didn't answer this poll. I really can't say.

I think your example is a little extreme but I get what you're trying to say and my answer to that would be dependent on the player's track record tbh.

I mean lets say we take Darren Collison at the end of his rookie campaign for example. Lets just say those games that he started were the only ones he played. As a starter that season he averaged 18.8 and 9.1. Those are better #s than Rajon Rondo had that season but given the fact that it was such a small sample size I wouldn't put him ahead of Rondo. Now if he had two prior seasons of such production that would be a different story.

I think 11 games is too small of a sample size but lets say for example LeBron plays 20 games in a season and Melo plays 80. Knowing all that we know do we then say that Melo is a better player than LeBron because he missed as much time as he did? I guess what I'm trying to say is that there a lot of other variables to be taken into consideration than just the fact that the player was injured.

Rivera
06-24-2012, 08:32 PM
i have no problem with rose at 2...injuries clearly killed him but hes still a top pg when healthy

if he does this again next year with major injuries he will drop in these polls. but at this point i dont mind him at #2, because when healthy hes better than the pgs listed above

tredigs
06-24-2012, 08:33 PM
Also, will we consider him top 2 next year after he is out all season (good chance of it) if his stats from the 30 games this year are better than X players from 2012/13?

I consider "better" as who gives more value to their team and has more impact on the league. And after what we saw this season - imo - that is very, very clearly not D. Rose over Westbrook.

There is a reason why Westbrook was All NBA 2nd team and D. Rose did not sniff the 3rd team. That won't change next year either.

I'd vote Rose 5th or so at this point (basing that on how we can expect him to be as a player when he comes back and giving him the benefit of the doubt for what he did do while in last year. Injuries are a unique scenario where it makes it so you have to project into the future being that they did not have full seasons). Can't go much higher than that.



This first is a perplexing question for me and was the reason as to why I didn't answer this poll. I really can't say.

I think your example is a little extreme but I get what you're trying to say and my answer to that would be dependent on the player's track record tbh.

I mean lets say we take Darren Collison at the end of his rookie campaign for example. Lets just say those games that he started were the only ones he played. As a starter that season he averaged 18.8 and 9.1. Those are better #s than Rajon Rondo had that season but given the fact that it was such a small sample size I wouldn't put him ahead of Rondo. Now if he had two prior seasons of such production that would be a different story.

I think 11 games is too small of a sample size but lets say for example LeBron plays 20 games in a season and Melo plays 80. Knowing all that we know do we then say that Melo is a better player than LeBron because he missed as much time as he did? I guess what I'm trying to say is that there a lot of other variables to be taken into consideration than just the fact that the player was injured.

I think the difference here is that Lebron is much, much more proven and better overall than Melo. Also, we could expect Lebron to come back from injury and still be better than Melo. Can't say the same for Rose and Westbrook. And if it WAS a serious enough injury that we knew Lebron could not outplay Melo upon his return, then you'd have to take Melo as the better player from this day forward (until proven otherwise).

edit: Do you guys all know D. Rose could very likely not be playing next year? And if he does rush back, it will still just be in the 2nd half?

Chronz
06-24-2012, 08:59 PM
Chronz read MHC's opening post in every single one of these threads. It's straight forward. These threads have nothing to do with predictions or expectations for the future. Its really quite simple.
You yourself have questioned the parameters, and quite simply a career altering injury like this cannot be ignored. Westbrook outplayed Rose THIS year and is sure to have a better season next year. I dont call that a prediction, I point to that as a logical conclusion. The truth is we dont know how good Rose is right now. Last we saw him he was limping off the court. Why would we give him benefit over someone who was arguably his equal and most definitely more durable?

It just makes no sense

Swashcuff
06-24-2012, 09:22 PM
You yourself have questioned the parameters, and quite simply a career altering injury like this cannot be ignored. Westbrook outplayed Rose THIS year and is sure to have a better season next year. I dont call that a prediction, I point to that as a logical conclusion. The truth is we dont know how good Rose is right now. Last we saw him he was limping off the court. Why would we give him benefit over someone who was arguably his equal and most definitely more durable?

It just makes no sense

Chronz that's a prediction. Westbrook could tear his ACL just as Rose has an miss the entire of next season. Likely? Not really. But by no means is it a foregone conclusion that he is going to be better. Thats what happens in sports.

If Westy suffers a freak injury this off season and is expected to miss more playing time that Rose do we then return to this thread and change the vote?

The truth is also we do know that when he played last season Rose was better than Westy.

Like I said before what MHC has outlined for these threads are clear. If we want to change the discussion we can use another thread to do so.

tredigs
06-24-2012, 09:48 PM
Chronz that's a prediction. Westbrook could tear his ACL just as Rose has an miss the entire of next season. Likely? Not really. But by no means is it a foregone conclusion that he is going to be better. Thats what happens in sports.

If Westy suffers a freak injury this off season and is expected to miss more playing time that Rose do we then return to this thread and change the vote?

The truth is also we do know that when he played last season Rose was better than Westy.

Like I said before what MHC has outlined for these threads are clear. If we want to change the discussion we can use another thread to do so.

Definitely don't agree here. We KNOW Rose is out next year until at least January, at which point he will slowly and methodically try to work back towards the player he used to be. And it won't be easy. He is a player who relied immensely on his quickness and burst slashing ability. He also may not play next year what so ever.

We also know that Westbrook played every game last year and was dominant throughout. The fact that Rose was arguably better in his limited regular season games and the Bulls were great with him on the floor does not change that (and the Bulls still maintained the 2nd best winning % in the conference behind Miami without him playing. He was not the reason they had a top seed).

These are facts. No speculation. The speculation is on the Rose voters part to assume that Rose would have been as good or better than Westbrook had he played through his number of injuries and not torn his ACL. It's also speculation to assume that he will be better than Westbrook when he returns (as obviously he is not right now). Which is foolish to think. He'll be working back to where he was for quite some time, and Westbrook is coming off an invaluable championship run. A playoff run that Rose is yet to experience.

But that's all I have to say on it. I think the proof is in the pudding. ~35 games of arguably better stats/play and a torn ACL does not earn you a greater spot than Westbrook or TP. If the poll was 6 months ago? Sure. But A LOT has changed since then. Again, these are the facts.

Chronz
06-24-2012, 10:31 PM
Chronz that's a prediction
Not at all, these are absolute certainties, Rose wont be good to go for awhile at which point we dont even know what kind of player he will be. We know Westbrook is still playing at the top of his abilities. But do you think its safe to say hes the same Rose from day 1?


Westbrook could tear his ACL just as Rose has an miss the entire of next season. Likely? Not really. But by no means is it a foregone conclusion that he is going to be better. Thats what happens in sports.
But Westbrook hasnt torn anything, we KNOW Rose has.


If Westy suffers a freak injury this off season and is expected to miss more playing time that Rose do we then return to this thread and change the vote?

The truth is also we do know that when he played last season Rose was better than Westy.

Like I said before what MHC has outlined for these threads are clear. If we want to change the discussion we can use another thread to do so.
Again, the 2 were very comparable, the difference maker should be that one had a much better season overall and has no questions surrounding his CURRENT ability.

Swashcuff
06-24-2012, 10:42 PM
Definitely don't agree here. We KNOW Rose is out next year until at least January, at which point he will slowly and methodically try to work back towards the player he used to be. And it won't be easy. He is a player who relied immensely on his quickness and burst slashing ability. He also may not play next year what so ever.

Cool no beef here.


We also know that Westbrook played every game last year and was dominant throughout. The fact that Rose was arguably better in his limited regular season games and the Bulls were great with him on the floor does not change that

Again no disputing this but you just answered the OPs question by saying that Rose was better than Westy.


(and the Bulls still maintained the 2nd best winning % in the conference behind Miami without him playing. He was not the reason they had a top seed).

The Bulls play in a top heavy eastern conference where the Celtics were a sub .500 team at the break, Dwight Howard was shockingly injured for the first time in his career and the Heat underperformed at various times during the regular season. The fact that they had a .667 winning % without Rose on the floor really wasn't that huge of a shocker. What's shocking however is that they had a .780 winning % with him on the floor. They were immensely better with him than without him.

To say he wasn't the reason they got the top seed in the East is really really pushing the envelope. I mean seriously the team lost to my 76ers when Rose (and Noah and even with Noah they most likely would have lost) went down. Now the 76ers aren't your typical everyday 8th seed but nonetheless if you are alluding to the Bulls being the 2nd best team in the east even without Derrick Rose that notion has major flaws.

Derrick Rose is the main reason the Bulls had the #1 seed in the East. You don't win 33 games and lose just 7 (including the post season) if your not the biggest reason for your team's success. Chicago could have been a middle of the pack defensive team and still beaten Philly with a healthy Derrick Rose.


These are facts. No speculation. The speculation is on the Rose voters part to assume that Rose would have been as good or better than Westbrook had he played through his number of injuries and not torn his ACL. It's also speculation to assume that he will be better than Westbrook when he returns (as obviously he is not right now). Which is foolish to think. He'll be working back to where he was for quite some time, and Westbrook is coming off an invaluable championship run. A playoff run that Rose is yet to experience.

Just as its speculation to think that Rose would be better its also speculation to think that Westy is automatically going to be better. I know Westbrook's game more than damn near anyone and all he has done since stepping foot into the league has been improve, improve, improve in all facets of his game (well maybe not so much his overall passing ability) and the fact that he takes such great care of his body and is yet to miss a single game since becoming an adult is duly noted however like you said we don't know how Rose is going to come back.

Rose is a player who is driven, who is determined to keep getting better. Even if we never see that same level of quickness, speed and explosiveness from him there is nothing to say that he can't be every bit as valuable as he has been in the past by working on his overall repertoire outside of just blowing by his defenders or making acrobatic plays at the basket. Of the high profile players who has had this type of injury damn near every one has come back to being at least 95% the player they were before it. However it is not expected for him to age as gracefully as he previously would have had he not been injured.


But that's all I have to say on it. I think the proof is in the pudding. ~35 games of arguably better stats/play and a torn ACL does not earn you a greater spot than Westbrook or TP. If the poll was 6 months ago? Sure. But A LOT has changed since then. Again, these are the facts.

Actually it was 40 games. Again however you admit that Rose had better stats and better play and essentially that's what this thread has asked and been asking for the last years. Who was the better player not who has had the better season.

What I don't get is that no one is saying that its fact that Rose is going to return and be better than Westy so what are you and Chronz defending that point for so much? This poll is about who was the better player last season not who is going to be better going forward.

nicegoing
06-24-2012, 10:44 PM
Injured or not, the gap between Westbrook and Rose isn't as big as some of you are making it out to be.

Comparison of LAST season: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=rosede01&y1=2011&p2=westbru01&y2=2011 Rose is better, but it's not that wide a gap, and especially taking Rose's injuries THIS season into consideration I think Westbrook is the better player.

tredigs
06-24-2012, 10:54 PM
Gah - OK, last try. You're pretty smart, stick with my rationale here. I'll create a ranking system:

Let's make Cp3 the top of the curve and as such a theoretical '100' as a pg.

Now let's say we rate Rose as a 96 and Westbrook as a 94 based on pure skill/production in the games they played - before counting injuries.

After missing 5 games or so, your value as a player begins diminishing in my mind. I don't think you are hearing what I'm saying when I say I value health and durability as much as I do. More than passing ability, more than shooting efficiency, everything. It is without question THE MOST important attribute any player can have. By the end of the year, Westbrook as a player was a ~95 in my mind (bonus point for no missed games at all) and Rose was an 86 (I feel that's very generous).

Again, I don't think it's close what-so-ever as to who was the better player last year. If you can't play, you begin losing value, and you are no longer in talks as a better player than somebody who theoretically in a magical world where you were healthy and did not lose until the ECF's would still arguably have a case over you.

Swashcuff
06-24-2012, 10:56 PM
Not at all, these are absolute certainties, Rose wont be good to go for awhile at which point we dont even know what kind of player he will be. We know Westbrook is still playing at the top of his abilities.

Two months ago we would have said that its absolutely certain that Derrick Rose is going to be a better player than Russell Westbrook next season. A month ago we would have said with absolute certainty that Deron Williams is going to be a better player than Rajon Rondo next season. A month from now we can change our tune again.

You are being logical no doubt but its not an absolute certainty.


But do you think its safe to say hes the same Rose from day 1?

I am no psychic nor do I have a medical degree so from what my rational mind would tell me I'd say no he won't return to being the same Derrick Rose we have known him to be. Pretty sad but its most likely going to be true. I do however expect him to be a top tier PG still.


But Westbrook hasnt torn anything, we KNOW Rose has.

Cool my point is just that just as in Rose's case these things can change in the blink of an eye.


Again, the 2 were very comparable, the difference maker should be that one had a much better season overall and has no questions surrounding his CURRENT ability.

Okay Chronz lets go back to Manram's post earlier in this thread where he posted this pic.

http://i45.tinypic.com/jzi6gj.jpg

Yes they were very comparable but honestly Rose was a hair better. IMO that's what the thread is asking.

Like I said at the inception of this thread I was unsure as to exactly how much weight to put into the fact that Rose missed that much time but when I think back to this past season and really reflect on who IMO was the better player between Rose, Westbrook, Parker and Rondo when they were all on the floor I'd have to go Rose. After all that's from my understanding is what the OP is asking. Who do you think is the best player on the poll. To me that's Derrick Rose.

Chronz
06-24-2012, 11:25 PM
Two months ago we would have said that its absolutely certain that Derrick Rose is going to be a better player than Russell Westbrook next season. A month ago we would have said with absolute certainty that Deron Williams is going to be a better player than Rajon Rondo next season. A month from now we can change our tune again.
Thats why if this thread was made 3 months ago, Rose would arguably be #1, sadly the reality is that a factual occurrence has changed the outlook on his CURRENT ability and overall performance on the year as a whole.


You are being logical no doubt but its not an absolute certainty. Even if it werent, it would require a factual occurence to change the CURRENT reality. Which is that Westbrook had a better year, and didnt suffer a career altering injury that will force him to miss even more games than he already has.



Okay Chronz lets go back to Manram's post earlier in this thread where he posted this pic.

http://i45.tinypic.com/jzi6gj.jpg

Yes they were very comparable but honestly Rose was a hair better. IMO that's what the thread is asking.

Manram never answered my question, which is, if 2 players are so clearly comparable how do you not give the edge to the guy who sustained his excellence throughout an entire season+playoffs and whos current ability isnt in question.

JordansBulls
06-25-2012, 09:04 AM
Chronz does not like Drose.

celtNYpatsHeels
06-25-2012, 01:23 PM
If we are going by the past season then I think Rose slightly edges Westbrook. Moving forward, I think that you have to put Westbrook, Williams, Parker and maybe Nash and maybe Rondo above Rose because of the injury.

tredigs
06-25-2012, 02:19 PM
If we are going by the past season then I think Rose slightly edges Westbrook. Moving forward, I think that you have to put Westbrook, Williams, Parker and maybe Nash and maybe Rondo above Rose because of the injury.

Which injury? The 5 or so he had throughout the season in which he sat 27 games, or the ACL tear in the playoffs?

I still maintain that there is absolutely zero sound argument that Rose was better than Westbrook. Those who say otherwise are wrong. It's really not debatable if you look at it logically. He took himself out of that conversation when he sat out a massive amount of the season for various injuries. The ACL tear in the final game just ensures that he will have an uphill battle to be a top 5-10 point next year, it still does not change the fact that he missed such a large chunk of time before that ever happened.

This is not "hating". It's the reality of a situation. This vote was wrong, and that's fine, but let's not let it delude ourselves from the reality that D. Rose was not a top 3 point guard this season, and won't be next season. If you don't play, you don't matter (as far as your value as a player is concerned). That's reality.

Chronz
06-25-2012, 05:13 PM
Chronz does not like Drose.

Why? Because I chose the more durable player who is as close as you can get to Rose only he has absolutely no questions surrounding his current status? Your a homer brah

ellesmeire
07-11-2012, 06:43 AM
there is a reason why rose is better than westbrook, he doesnt have freaking Harden and Durant to take heat off of him, people saying that Durant is a reason Westy is better are on crack, westbrook sees one on one coverage all the time, remind me again who the Bulls have? noone, no outside shooting either so tehy can just stack the paint