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Nikeman
06-22-2012, 02:32 PM
Can we please please please clear this misconception up?

I keep seeing Bulls/Lakers and other fans posting LeBron is a coward, because he could not win himself. That is utterly false and disgusting to see.

Michael Jordan's cast-

Scottie Pippen: A ****ing legend in his own right. Nough said. PIPPEN guarded the best perimeter player of other teams, not Jordan which i am 99% sure helped him out a ton.

Dennis Rodman: One of the toughest mofos of all time, and amazing rebounder

Horace Grant: Pretty much averaged a double-double

Steve Kerr: Amazing 3 pt shooter

Tony Kukoch: Amazing 3 pt shooter/scorer

B.J. Armstrong- A double digit scorer on a consistent basis


Kobe Bryant's Teams:

Shaq- Nothing needed here, although I will add, that KOBE rode Shaq's back to 3 titles, as SHAQ was the finals MVP each time and KOBE was second fiddle.

D-Fish: Clutch PG

Etc etc.

In fact, Kobe is so selfish he ran Shaq out of town because he realized he was second fiddle.

So what happens?

For I believe 2-3 years, the Lakers are not even relevant UNTIL they get Pau, who at the time of being acquired was probably the MOST SKILLED and BEST post player in the league.

What's my point?

Stop with the bull that LBJ could not win by himself, because I can argue that Kobe and Jordan's teams were even BETTER than this Heat team that won last night.

What the difference? Cleveland provided LeBron with players like Antwan Jamison and Anderson Vaerjao, while Chicago and LA brought in superstars to pair with Jordan and Kobe. So please stop with this nonsense that LeBron can't win by himself, because nobody has or will.

I feel like PSD is a bunch of 10 year old idiots that know nothing about the history of basketball, or basketball itself.

I am sure this thread will not even get many comments, because people only like to read what sides with them and not facts.

CB29
06-22-2012, 02:34 PM
larry and magic didn't win by themselves either... wilt and kareem and bill as well... only one that won by himself was hakeem...

Nikeman
06-22-2012, 02:34 PM
I am 99% sure, if Cleveland could provide LeBron with a case like Chicago provided MJ and LA provided Kobe, he'd still be in a Cavs jersey and they would have not one but multiple championships already.

KB-Pau-DH2012
06-22-2012, 02:35 PM
Amnesty Kobe.

Nikeman
06-22-2012, 02:38 PM
larry and magic didn't win by themselves either... wilt and kareem and bill as well... only one that won by himself was hakeem...

Exactly, just better proves my point.

Everyone pretty much had superstar players with them by their side.

Agreed that Hakeem can be argued as doing it by himself in 1994, but Kenny Smith was a decent PG, and Otis Thorpe helped him out a ton averaging a double double and made their front line dominant. Vernon Maxwell also a good player.

Nikeman
06-22-2012, 02:39 PM
Amnesty Kobe.

Sure as heck would save the Lakers from a player that jacks like nobody else.

KB-Pau-DH2012
06-22-2012, 02:44 PM
Amnesty MJ.

Swashcuff
06-22-2012, 02:44 PM
larry and magic didn't win by themselves either... wilt and kareem and bill as well... only one that won by himself was hakeem...

Add Rick Barry to that list. I bet off the top of your head you can't name anyone else on that 75 Championship team.

Hellcrooner
06-22-2012, 02:47 PM
larry and magic didn't win by themselves either... wilt and kareem and bill as well... only one that won by himself was hakeem...

and Barry.

But they still had valuable teamates to make important ROLES in winning.

Nikeman
06-22-2012, 02:48 PM
Add Rick Barry to that list. I bet off the top of your head you can't name anyone else on that 75 Championship team.

Jaamal Wilkes and Butch, ik my basketball son.

But yea, Rick Barry did win it without much help.

Anyone, I don't care if people hate LeBron, but saying he is a coward is dumb.

Immoknight
06-22-2012, 02:50 PM
Jaamal Wilkes and Butch, ik my basketball son.

But yea, Rick Barry did win it without much help.

Anyone, I don't care if people hate LeBron, but having an opinion that is different than mine is dumb.

There yah go, I fixed that for you... I think he is a coward.

So, which of those guys bailed on the team that drafted them to go play with another superstar... I think I missed that part... so that your argument is more than...

"Your opinion is different than mine about what is a coward... but yours is clearly dumb. CHANGE IT NOW! WAH!"

Nikeman
06-22-2012, 02:51 PM
There yah go, I fixed that for you... I think he is a coward.

Cool good for you.

Because Melo' and Amare' ain't going anywhere and NY is a disaster and will be for a long time, your just mad.

AWC713
06-22-2012, 02:52 PM
larry and magic didn't win by themselves either... wilt and kareem and bill as well... only one that won by himself was hakeem...

ehh rockets had some very solid teams. this gets overlooked a lot. in their 95 year, they traded for clyde drexler, who was an all-star.

they had some great players on both teams. kenny smith and vernon maxwell were deadly from 3. add that to a young sam cassell and veteran mario elie and youve got yourself a good squad. not to mention, otis thorpe is one of the most underappreaciated power forwards of that generation. they simply dont win without thorpe.

those rockets teams were definately very reliant on hakeem, but not as much as say, lebron on the cavs

Phenomenonsense
06-22-2012, 02:55 PM
Cool good for you.

Because Melo' and Amare' ain't going anywhere and NY is a disaster and will be for a long time, your just mad.

You're. And any player on the level of Lebron who leaves to team up with other superstars is a Coward. Wade is fine in my book. He had people come to him like the dogs they are.

And just to be clear I'm glad lebron won a ring if for no other reason than people will stop talking about it so much. (Who am I kidding, not it won't :facepalm: ). I'm just glad he failed as a Cavalier, being a fan of Detroit myself.

ManRam
06-22-2012, 02:58 PM
People think those two won by themselves?

People think anyone has ever won by themselves?

News to me...

bluefire7002
06-22-2012, 02:59 PM
Amnesty Kobe.

:laugh:

knicks4life33
06-22-2012, 03:02 PM
mj and kobe did not leave there team

ChicagoJ
06-22-2012, 03:03 PM
All you have to do is follow Jordan in the earlier years. He couldn't do it on his own. They had to build a team around him which they did in Chicago. But, Jordan didn't leave the bulls to join a team with 2 other all stars either, one being perhaps the second best player in the league. That would be like MJ leaving the bulls to join Magic and the lakers and then winning championships. I don't think LeBron's legacy will ever get away from that. It still doesn't take away what the heat and LeBron did this year, but it isn't the same situation as Kobe and MJ.

Hawkeye15
06-22-2012, 03:04 PM
People think those two won by themselves?

People think anyone has ever won by themselves?

News to me...

seriously. Even Hakeem and Rick Barry had great role players overachieving. But MJ, Bird, Magic, Kobe, and Duncan for instance, all had ELITE help for years. Hence why they have rings.....

Role players win championships fellas. Stars do what they do, but whichever one gets the most production out of their system/role players ends up holding that Finals MVP.

Nikeman
06-22-2012, 03:04 PM
mj and kobe did not leave there team

That's my point.

Their teams brought good help and provided them with a dominant supporting cast.

I am not saying LBJ left in the best way, but he did what he felt he needed to do because Cleveland couldn't provide him with help.

His best to players were Mo Williams and Antwan Jamison...

And its not like Kobe didn't demand a trade because he didn't have help... there were rumors of Kobe trading, Kobe causing trouble with management.

To each his own though.

TheWhiteMamba
06-22-2012, 03:05 PM
I agree with the sediments by the op but Pippen was pretty much drafted by the Bulls (draft day trade). MJ didnt leave his team to team up with a top 3 player but instead helped turn Pip into a HoFer. Also Rodman was a shadow of himself by the time he got to the Bulls. But like i said i agree with you in that no one has and no one ever will win a title by themselves.

dh144498
06-22-2012, 03:06 PM
Dirk did it by himself. /thread

koreancabbage
06-22-2012, 03:09 PM
There yah go, I fixed that for you... I think he is a coward.

So, which of those guys bailed on the team that drafted them to go play with another superstar... I think I missed that part... so that your argument is more than...

"Your opinion is different than mine about what is a coward... but yours is clearly dumb. CHANGE IT NOW! WAH!"

he still got a championship. cowards don't go winning championships. cowards don't take a stand and stand up for what he believes in. cowards don't try to prove the haters wrong. cowards don't go to scenarios where he can best suited to win.

yea, Lebron's a coward.

Nikeman
06-22-2012, 03:09 PM
Dirk did it by himself. /thread

Tyson Chandler, one of the best defensive centers in the game, and rebounders

Jason Kidd, one of the best passing PGs

Jason Terry averaged over 20 a game I believe that series.

Ladies Man
06-22-2012, 03:09 PM
Kobe and Michael didn't join another team to win a championship, they kinda stayed on their teams.

koreancabbage
06-22-2012, 03:10 PM
Dirk did it by himself. /thread

ROFL his team was stacked regardless of what you think. I was cheering for Miami but Dallas was stacked beyond anything i've seen

Swashcuff
06-22-2012, 03:11 PM
Jaamal Wilkes and Butch, ik my basketball son.

But yea, Rick Barry did win it without much help.

Anyone, I don't care if people hate LeBron, but saying he is a coward is dumb.

:confused:

Okay

Given the fact that you didn't spell Kukoc's name correctly I would have guessed otherwise.

Hawkeye15
06-22-2012, 03:11 PM
mj and kobe did not leave there team

Why would they have? Their front offices gave them elite help, Kobe from day 1, MJ in year 7. Cleveland was never going to do that, they have proven to be one of the most inept front offices in the game.

northsider
06-22-2012, 03:12 PM
The ONLY difference and what makes it soo different is that NETHER Kobe nor MJ ran away from what they were handed or ran to go get help.

This isn't a Bron bash as much as it is clearing up why people disregard the whole help issues cause yeah MJ had a great cast and so did Kobe however they didn't go to the help.

Nikeman
06-22-2012, 03:12 PM
Why would they have? Their front offices gave them elite help, Kobe from day 1, MJ in year 7. Cleveland was never going to do that, they have proven to be one of the most inept front offices in the game.

That's the point I've been trying to make.

As for the post that said I spelled Kukoch's name wrong, I apologize, I guessed.

dh144498
06-22-2012, 03:12 PM
Tyson Chandler, one of the best defensive centers in the game, and rebounders

Jason Kidd, one of the best passing PGs

Jason Terry averaged over 20 a game I believe that series.

Having all the role players showing up and winning is way different than having 2 other superstars and winning. :facepalm:

Dirk did it by himself.

Hawkeye15
06-22-2012, 03:13 PM
Kobe and Michael didn't join another team to win a championship, they kinda stayed on their teams.

who would leave Shaq, Fisher, Fox, Shaw, Horry, Bynum, Gasol, or Pippen, Kukoc, Kerr, Paxon, Grant, Cartwright, Rodman, or Phil Jackson?

Now, who would leave Mo Williams, Sideshow Bob, 200 year old Big Z, and Mike Brown?

The answer to the first question is an idiot.

The answer to the second question is any player who would rather win.

ManRam
06-22-2012, 03:13 PM
Kobe and Michael didn't join another team to win a championship, they kinda stayed on their teams.

Well, Shaq did join up with Kobe :shrug:

Makes me wonder, I would the same thing would be true if either MJ or Kobe were drafted by a team like Cleveland. A team in an undesirable market with not great coach and no great players?

I wonder if LeBron would have left LA with Shaq and Phil there. I wonder if he would have left Chicago with Pippen and Phil there?

I'm going to go ahead and say that you can't treat every scenario the same. Cleveland in the mid-late 2000s was FAR different than Chicago in the early 90s and LA in the late 90s. Cleveland wasn't and isn't 1/10th as desirable as a place to play.

Hawkeye15
06-22-2012, 03:13 PM
Having all the role players showing up and winning is way different than having 2 other superstars and winning. :facepalm:

Dirk did it by himself.

No he didn't, his role players won it for him, just like every star before him. That is how it works.

Nikeman
06-22-2012, 03:14 PM
The ONLY difference and what makes it soo different is that NETHER Kobe nor MJ ran away from what they were handed or ran to go get help.

This isn't a Bron bash as much as it is clearing up why people disregard the whole help issues cause yeah MJ had a great cast and so did Kobe however they didn't go to the help.

Well Kobe pretty much demanded a trade and L.A. pulled off one of the shadiest deals of all time (at the time), otherwise Kobe may very well be wearing another jersey right now.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2886927

If L.A. didn't have an amazing front office, he may very well be gone.

Swashcuff
06-22-2012, 03:14 PM
Tyson Chandler, one of the best defensive centers in the game, and rebounders

Jason Kidd, one of the best passing PGs

Jason Terry averaged over 20 a game I believe that series.

While LeBron one of the most versatile defenders of this generation was guarding him for the greater portion of the finals.

Hawkeye15
06-22-2012, 03:14 PM
I see many of you had ready-made whiny excuses ready to roll when LeBron closed it out.

Charming. You will grow up one day, don't worry.

BigBongTheory
06-22-2012, 03:15 PM
Kobe and Jordan didn't have two other superstars by their side. 3 of the top 12-15 players in the league are on the Olympian team. He will always be remembered as the guy that **** on Cleveland to join his two Batmen that he couldn't play without anymore. But Congratulations.

dh144498
06-22-2012, 03:15 PM
ROFL his team was stacked regardless of what you think. I was cheering for Miami but Dallas was stacked beyond anything i've seen

Mavs were stacked? rofl.
Having an actual team consisting of 1 star and 4 role players >>>>> some randomly thrown team with 3 superstars and 2 roleplayers. Mavs weren't stacked, they are a true team though. They were indeed the better team because they knew how to adjust and lock down Lebron. Don't even go the "Mavs were stacked" because the Heat were picked to be the favorites by everybody....:facepalm::facepalm:

northsider
06-22-2012, 03:15 PM
Well Kobe pretty much demanded a trade and L.A. pulled off one of the shadiest deals of all time (at the time), otherwise Kobe may very well be wearing another jersey right now.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2886927

If L.A. didn't have an amazing front office, he may very well be gone.

He had already won a ring.

BigBongTheory
06-22-2012, 03:19 PM
A big factor in winning a championship is by having superstars, what team has won the championship in recent history without having a superstar? Let alone 3 of them.

SlimKid
06-22-2012, 03:19 PM
I see many of you had ready-made whiny excuses ready to roll when LeBron closed it out.

Charming. You will grow up one day, don't worry.

Took the words out of my mouth:clap:

Nikeman
06-22-2012, 03:20 PM
He had already won a ring.

Yea, he had won 3, riding shaq's back.

Shaq dominated those finals and won all 3 finals MVP with Kobe as second fiddle.

Anyway, at least Hawkeye gets what I am trying to say.

Hawkeye15
06-22-2012, 03:20 PM
Kobe and Jordan didn't have two other superstars by their side. 3 of the top 12-15 players in the league are on the Olympian team. He will always be remembered as the guy that **** on Cleveland to join his two Batmen that he couldn't play without anymore. But Congratulations.

No, that is how YOU will choose to remember LeBron. Many of us don't see it that way at all. And I will be astonished if Wade is ranked a top 5 player going into next season with his performance in the playoffs. Bosh top 15? Nope.

ManRam
06-22-2012, 03:20 PM
He had already won a ring.

Kobe didn't "run away" because there really wasn't a reason for him to. If there wasn't a reason for LeBron to "run away" I'm sure he wouldn't have either.

And yeah, he didn't "team up" with players...but the Shaq FA signing was the greatest thing that happened to Kobe. I'd be surprised if Kobe was a Laker lifer if Shaq didn't go there. We say how poorly he handled losing and how he was unwilling to accept it...so why are we to assume he would stay if his team was never full of championship level talent?

dh144498
06-22-2012, 03:20 PM
No he didn't, his role players won it for him, just like every star before him. That is how it works.

Wrong. Everytime someone brings up Kobe or MJ's championships, almost everyone will immediately bring up Shaq/Gasol and pippen. Why? Because they were legitimate 2nd/1b options and the main guy could not have won without their side kicks. What do people say about Dirk when they mention his win? no one will say he could not have won without Jason Terry because he wasn't an established "option".
There's a difference between winning with another allstar/superstar side-kick and winning with a legit team(aka 2011 Mavs).:clap:

JordansBulls
06-22-2012, 03:22 PM
Jordan was the only player who made the allstar team on the Bulls when they first won the title in 1991 and did it again in 1998. Not to mention the Bulls didn't give MJ a star.

MJ didn't acquire a guy that was a top 10 player either. He acquired a guy that was coming off the bench that became a top 10 player in the league over time after playing with MJ. That is a Big Difference. It's one thing if MJ got Pippen like Wade got Shaq when he was already a top 5-10 player in the league. He didn't though.

So Saying Lebron didn't have a top 10 player on his team is irrelevant in this case because MJ didn't get a top 10 player either to play with. The equivalent of that happening for Lebron is basically having a guy who came off the bench initially and that was raw and then a few years later is an allstar and top player in the league. Example for Lebron would be JJ Hickson turning into a star.

When I say handed I am referring to being "handed" to a team as a star already basically being a "developed player". Examples: Shaq to Miami in 2005, Ray Allen to Boston in 2008, Barkley to Phoenix in 1993, Drexler to Houston in 1995. Basically guys when they were already proven stars in the league and great 1st/2nd options on teams.
Manu nor Parker were handed to the Duncan. "They developed while playing with him." Same thing with Pippen. They were not developed players before hand. Jamsion, Shaq, Mo were already developed players. Shaq was getting 17 and 8 last season, Jamison 20 and 8 and Mo 17 and 6 before playing with the Cavs the year before.


And the thing people are forgetting is that the Heat had the most allstars the past 2 seasons on the allstar team. Not to mention Lebron joined forces with a top 3-5 player who already won a title as the main guy. That is totally different.

Lebron had a better chance in Cleveland to be in that top echelon. Leaving a team to go play with a proven winner in his prime is not going to put you in that top 3 all time when you don't bring a title to the franchise that drafted you. Essentially the way he is getting titles, any player can do. Just go jump ship and play with another elite player that has already gotten it done.
Lebron decided to play with a guy who won as the man already in that player's city. It would have been like someone like MJ leaving Chicago to Detroit in 1989 to play with Isiah Thomas when he already won as the man and then try to proclaim MJ as the GOAT when he left to go play with a proven winner in his city.



Wade stayed with the Franchise that drafted him, he won a title with the franchise that drafted him. He brought the city it's only title a city that drafted him. Shaq was traded to Miami, Wade didn't join forces or go play with Shaq, Shaq went to play with Wade. The same thing Lebron and Bosh did. They wanted to play with the proven winner in his city that the franchise drafted him in.


You trying to tell me it would have helped MJ's case in the all time rankings going to play with Isiah in Detroit in his city when Isiah was already a proven winner at the time? I don't think so.

Anyway, I don't call going to play with a guy who already won a title as the man in Wade "getting help", that is more that you are begging him for help to get you over the hump since he actually proved he can win as the man.

Hawkeye15
06-22-2012, 03:22 PM
Wrong. Everytime someone brings up Kobe or MJ's championships, almost everyone will immediately bring up Shaq/Gasol and pippen. Why? Because they were legitimate 2nd/1b options and the main guy could not have won without their side kicks. What do people say about Dirk when they mention his win? no one will say he could not have won without Jason Terry because he wasn't an established "option".
There's a difference between winning with another allstar/superstar side-kick and winning with a legit team(aka 2011 Mavs).:clap:

No, I am right. Stars, if they do what they are supposed to do, are stars. The series at that point, with both teams being so good, fall to the "other" guys. You know, the Jason Terry's, the Robert Horry's, the Sean Elliot's.

yoseppii12
06-22-2012, 03:24 PM
Jordan was the only player who made the allstar team on the Bulls when they first won the title in 1991 and did it again in 1998. Not to mention the Bulls didn't give MJ a star.

MJ didn't acquire a guy that was a top 10 player either. He acquired a guy that was coming off the bench that became a top 10 player in the league over time after playing with MJ. That is a Big Difference. It's one thing if MJ got Pippen like Wade got Shaq when he was already a top 5-10 player in the league. He didn't though.

So Saying Lebron didn't have a top 10 player on his team is irrelevant in this case because MJ didn't get a top 10 player either to play with. The equivalent of that happening for Lebron is basically having a guy who came off the bench initially and that was raw and then a few years later is an allstar and top player in the league. Example for Lebron would be JJ Hickson turning into a star.

When I say handed I am referring to being "handed" to a team as a star already basically being a "developed player". Examples: Shaq to Miami in 2005, Ray Allen to Boston in 2008, Barkley to Phoenix in 1993, Drexler to Houston in 1995. Basically guys when they were already proven stars in the league and great 1st/2nd options on teams.
Manu nor Parker were handed to the Duncan. "They developed while playing with him." Same thing with Pippen. They were not developed players before hand. Jamsion, Shaq, Mo were already developed players. Shaq was getting 17 and 8 last season, Jamison 20 and 8 and Mo 17 and 6 before playing with the Cavs the year before.

Said this in the Lebron vs Jordan thread 5 minutes ago. Most intelligent thing I've read in this thread and couldn't agree anymore. How can you say that Pippen would for sure be a top 50 player all time if he would have went to another team instead of the Bulls. I can't say for sure he would have been.

northsider
06-22-2012, 03:25 PM
Kobe didn't "run away" because there really wasn't a reason for him to. If there wasn't a reason for LeBron to "run away" I'm sure he wouldn't have either.

And yeah, he didn't "team up" with players...but the Shaq FA signing was the greatest thing that happened to Kobe. I'd be surprised if Kobe was a Laker lifer if Shaq didn't go there. We say how poorly he handled losing and how he was unwilling to accept it...so why are we to assume he would stay if his team was never full of championship level talent?

For a Akron boy I feel like being able to make his state a champion would be a good reason.

ROY 2 MVP Braun
06-22-2012, 03:25 PM
signing a stud center in shaq and trading for a kid out of high-school that was took 13th overall (i think it was 13) was not teaming them up also the bulls got pippen in a draft day trade and rodman got to the bulls at the peak of his career but went downhill from what he was before that with the pistons, neither kobe or pippen had a choice on where they were going they ended up in perfect situations for them! not lebron he chose to go get his title the easiest way possible by joining the best 2 FA's on the market there is quite a difference there! so IMHO your thread is FALSE!!! lebron is hell of a player as much as i hate his guts but he indeed did take the COWARDS way to a championship!

Every heat fan is going to say n make excuses for anything and everything they can to make it seem like how it was done was fair n square but it was no

Teeboy1487
06-22-2012, 03:26 PM
Amnesty Kobe..

BigBongTheory
06-22-2012, 03:27 PM
No, that is how YOU will choose to remember LeBron. Many of us don't see it that way at all. And I will be astonished if Wade is ranked a top 5 player going into next season with his performance in the playoffs. Bosh top 15? Nope.

I can't change how I feel about the Lebron situation over the past couple years, He has won a championship, and that is good for him. But the picture I put together throughout the past two three years paints what I experienced. Playing in Miami with two other superstars is one thing, but when he was in Toronto he was regarded as a top PF and one of the best players in the league.

Nikeman
06-22-2012, 03:29 PM
Jordan was the only player who made the allstar team on the Bulls when they first won the title in 1991 and did it again in 1998. Not to mention the Bulls didn't give MJ a star.

MJ didn't acquire a guy that was a top 10 player either. He acquired a guy that was coming off the bench that became a top 10 player in the league over time after playing with MJ. That is a Big Difference. It's one thing if MJ got Pippen like Wade got Shaq when he was already a top 5-10 player in the league. He didn't though.

So Saying Lebron didn't have a top 10 player on his team is irrelevant in this case because MJ didn't get a top 10 player either to play with. The equivalent of that happening for Lebron is basically having a guy who came off the bench initially and that was raw and then a few years later is an allstar and top player in the league. Example for Lebron would be JJ Hickson turning into a star.

When I say handed I am referring to being "handed" to a team as a star already basically being a "developed player". Examples: Shaq to Miami in 2005, Ray Allen to Boston in 2008, Barkley to Phoenix in 1993, Drexler to Houston in 1995. Basically guys when they were already proven stars in the league and great 1st/2nd options on teams.
Manu nor Parker were handed to the Duncan. "They developed while playing with him." Same thing with Pippen. They were not developed players before hand. Jamsion, Shaq, Mo were already developed players. Shaq was getting 17 and 8 last season, Jamison 20 and 8 and Mo 17 and 6 before playing with the Cavs the year before.


And the thing people are forgetting is that the Heat had the most allstars the past 2 seasons on the allstar team. Not to mention Lebron joined forces with a top 3-5 player who already won a title as the main guy. That is totally different.

Lebron had a better chance in Cleveland to be in that top echelon. Leaving a team to go play with a proven winner in his prime is not going to put you in that top 3 all time when you don't bring a title to the franchise that drafted you. Essentially the way he is getting titles, any player can do. Just go jump ship and play with another elite player that has already gotten it done.
Lebron decided to play with a guy who won as the man already in that player's city. It would have been like someone like MJ leaving Chicago to Detroit in 1989 to play with Isiah Thomas when he already won as the man and then try to proclaim MJ as the GOAT when he left to go play with a proven winner in his city.



Wade stayed with the Franchise that drafted him, he won a title with the franchise that drafted him. He brought the city it's only title a city that drafted him. Shaq was traded to Miami, Wade didn't join forces or go play with Shaq, Shaq went to play with Wade. The same thing Lebron and Bosh did. They wanted to play with the proven winner in his city that the franchise drafted him in.


You trying to tell me it would have helped MJ's case in the all time rankings going to play with Isiah in Detroit in his city when Isiah was already a proven winner at the time? I don't think so.

Anyway, I don't call going to play with a guy who already won a title as the man in Wade "getting help", that is more that you are begging him for help to get you over the hump since he actually proved he can win as the man.

Ok, its one thing to be "handed" a player, but had Pippen not developed to what he did, would MJ win anything?

Answer: No, because Pippen is a legend in his own right, defending other teams best players and doing everything.

LeBron spent 7 years in Cleveland and when people played with him in Cleveland, he made them what they were, so LeBron also makes players around him better. He just saw no sign of Cleveland getting him any help and left, and it makes sense he would go to Miami where he has instant help rather than another team like Cleveland. Clleveland could have gotten Amare' but decided to get Jamsion instead in order to keep Hickson, that's how smart their front office is.

Question:

If MJ never eventually got a great team assembled do you think he would stay? Or go to a team where he could win championships?

I think we don't need to answer that for Kobe, because he proved that he would have left L.A. had they not gotten Gasol. Kobe was gifted Shaq, who I will say was the BEST player in the NBA at that time.

JordansBulls
06-22-2012, 03:31 PM
Ok, its one thing to be "handed" a player, but had Pippen not developed to what he did, would MJ win anything?

Answer: No, because Pippen is a legend in his own right, defending other teams best players and doing everything.

LeBron spent 7 years in Cleveland and when people played with him in Cleveland, he made them what they were, so LeBron also makes players around him better. He just saw no sign of Cleveland getting him any help and left, and it makes sense he would go to Miami rather than another team like Cleveland.

Question:

If MJ never eventually got a great team assembled do you think he would stay? Or go to a team where he could win championships?

I think we don't need to answer that for Kobe, because he proved that he would have left L.A. had they not gotten Gasol. Kobe was gifted Shaq, who I will say was the BEST player in the NBA at that time.

Most of the writers and articles point to that MJ aided Pippen into becoming the player he became.

Here are a few:


Source: GoogleBooks (http://books.google.com/books?id=aQ84ViBNkYwC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=Game+Michael+Jordan+broke+his+leg&source=web&ots=Y9Xtn3nomR&sig=6shSn2cklYKVP1kBaC6nI0A_oko&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA39,M1)




Pippen, unlike other Bulls who usually kept their distance from Jordan, tried to learn all he could from Jordan in practice. In turn, Jordan worked with Pippen on his moves, jump shot, and defense and taught him mental toughness.



----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/ask-sam-sam-smith-opens-his-mailbag-033012.html



Sam: I remember Jordan helping Pippen with this. In Pippen’s first several seasons, he rarely got calls on drives. Jordan used to show him — we were permitted to watch practice then — how to drive into contact and then react to the contact. Pippen used to practice it all the time with Jordan showing him.


----------------------------------------------------------

Pippen relates on how his game improved - Link (http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/jordanhof_pippen_090910.html)


“He was very competitive, so he went at me and that helped me learn,” said Pippen. “You continue to compete against the very best every day, and you will get better, or you’ll be embarrassed.”


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-krausejordan090909



“Michael was great at identifying things,” Krause said. “Would Pippen have been great someplace else? Michael absolutely killed Scottie in practice every day for his first two years. Mike just tore Pip up. He made Pip learn how to compete and forced him into playing hard. Had there not been someone to challenge Scottie like that, I’m not sure what would’ve happened to him.”




http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091030.html


Sam: I know there's that "he's a rookie thing," though I thought more with Rose was the way he drove and then was so quick he could avoid the contact. I think with him he was more accustomed to having just come out of playing in the Chicago playgrounds where you aren't going to get calls going to the basket. I remember watching Jordan not long after Pippen joined the Bulls showing Pippen how to drive and go into a defender and then finish your shot. Wade was a more mature player having gone to college several years, and Anthony played in the post and inside a lot. That's one area for Rose for improve. He's a quick study and I think you'll see him taking the hit since he's strong and can do it and drawing more calls this season.


http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091023.html



Would you still consider pippen to be included on the 50 greatest players list? I know that he pioneered/changed the way that his position was played creating more of a point-forward spot, which paved the way for players like melo and lebron. But he never did accomplish anything by himself, and proved in Portland that he couldn't carry a team.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sam: You can't judge with Portland given he was well past his athletic prime and had lost basically all his explosiveness and was operating on guile. He was a much smarter player than ever given credit for, though many still question his top 50 inclusion. The notion is if not for Jordan, there would be no chance. And I tend to agree. If he were picked by the Clippers at No. 4 in that draft as he should have been, he would not have been a top 50 player because he couldn't create that much for himself. But he wasn't and he was the No. 2 part of six championships and was a multiple defensive player and gold medalist on the Dream Team. So he deserves the recognition and will be inducted into the Hall of Fame as a result. Most everyone who has succeeded has benefitted from good timing on occasion. Pippen did as well, but he also made the most of it.




http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=5453558



CHICAGO -- The Detroit Pistons may have toughened up the Bulls in the late 1980s and early 1990s, but Jerry Krause wouldn't give the Bad Boys any undue credit for contributing to Scottie Pippen's basketball manhood or his Hall of Fame career.

"No, Michael [Jordan] made him a man," said the Bulls' former general manager, now a scout for the White Sox. "The Pistons didn't have anything to do with that. Michael made him a man and Doug [Collins] did a great job with him in his first year. And then when Phil [Jackson] brought the triangle [offense] in, it really helped him because he had all the physical skills to be great."





"And he had Michael to beat on him for a year every day in practice and Michael beat him to death," Krause said. "The practices were great because you could see him at the end of the year start to grow and start to fight Michael . . ."



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4sj1LmYgh8

From 2:10 to 2:42

On playing with Jordan - "Because i think it made me a better person and a better player"

Horace Grant


"He made us better... myself, Scottie, BJ, even Bill Cartwright who I still love, he made us better players. He gave us that confidence, but first we had to earn his trust and once we earned his trust man you know you saw championship after championship..."



With Lebron playing with stars guys have gotten worse. Bosh and Wade are clearly worse now playing with Lebron than playing without him.

xxplayerxx23
06-22-2012, 03:37 PM
You dont say, I thought kobe and MJ played 1 on 5 and still won

koreancabbage
06-22-2012, 03:40 PM
With Lebron playing with stars guys have gotten worse. Bosh and Wade are clearly worse now playing with Lebron than playing without him.

true, but now you can make an argument that this was truly Lebron's will in winning a championship with" role players " like Wade and Bosh. That this championship was because of Lebron.

which makes his run in the playoffs even more amazing and truly great due to underwhelming performances from Bosh and Wade

Nikeman
06-22-2012, 03:40 PM
Most of the writers and articles point to that MJ aided Pippen into becoming the player he became.

Here are a few:


Source: GoogleBooks (http://books.google.com/books?id=aQ84ViBNkYwC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=Game+Michael+Jordan+broke+his+leg&source=web&ots=Y9Xtn3nomR&sig=6shSn2cklYKVP1kBaC6nI0A_oko&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA39,M1)





----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/ask-sam-sam-smith-opens-his-mailbag-033012.html



----------------------------------------------------------

Pippen relates on how his game improved - Link (http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/jordanhof_pippen_090910.html)




http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-krausejordan090909





http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091030.html




http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091023.html





http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=5453558







http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4sj1LmYgh8

From 2:10 to 2:42

On playing with Jordan - "Because i think it made me a better person and a better player"

Horace Grant


"He made us better... myself, Scottie, BJ, even Bill Cartwright who I still love, he made us better players. He gave us that confidence, but first we had to earn his trust and once we earned his trust man you know you saw championship after championship..."



With Lebron playing with stars guys have gotten worse. Bosh and Wade are clearly worse now playing with Lebron than playing without him.

Well obviously, it looked like Wade is starting to decline, and played injured as did Bosh.

They all sacrificed their shots and looked for LeBron to lead them.

You could argue that LeBron has developed Mario Chalmers into a solid PG (much work left to do, but he has grown).

knickfan33
06-22-2012, 03:40 PM
Jordan and kobe didnt conspire with two other superstars to form those teams, it just happened.... Theres the difference.

Swashcuff
06-22-2012, 03:41 PM
Lets at least wait until the Heat becomes a dynasty and win multiple championships before we start comparing help. Lets not forget that Kobe and MJ formed parts of dynasties with the support that they had in the case of LeBron that's yet to happen.

Nikeman
06-22-2012, 03:43 PM
@ JordansBulls

I am not taking anything away from MJ, he is the GOAT of the NBA, but had Pippen not developed, MJ would have never won. He had an amazing team.

Kobe, not saying any more, everything I had/wanted to say has been said.

My point again before I need to go.

LeBron saw no sign of improvement in Cleveland. He essentially led a bunch of scrubs to 60 win seasons and the playoffs every year. Cleveland had one of the worst F.O.'s in the NBA, choosing Antwan Jamison over Amare because of JJ HICKSON. They had no pieces to improve either, so how can you blame LBJ for leaving.

Kobe has been gifted 3 titles with Shaq, and if not for the L.A. FO being one of the best would have left L.A. after Kobe ran Shaq out.

sunsfan88
06-22-2012, 03:44 PM
Its funny people b***ch about LeBron leaving Cleveland....did all those idiots forget about how Kobe DEMANDED A TRADE when the going got rough in LA?!!

And then to shut his whiny *** up, they traded for Gasol and ripped off Memphis.

northsider
06-22-2012, 03:44 PM
@ JordansBulls

I am not taking anything away from MJ, he is the GOAT of the NBA, but had Pippen not developed, MJ would have never won. He had an amazing team.

Kobe, not saying any more, everything I had/wanted to say has been said.

My point again before I need to go.

LeBron saw no sign of improvement in Cleveland. He essentially led a bunch of scrubs to 60 win seasons and the playoffs every year. Cleveland had one of the worst F.O.'s in the NBA, choosing Antwan Jamison over Amare because of JJ HICKSON. They had no pieces to improve either, so how can you blame LBJ for leaving.

Kobe has been gifted 3 titles with Shaq, and if not for the L.A. FO being one of the best would have left L.A. after Kobe ran Shaq out.

This is true how????? That seems more like an assumption rather then any sort of the guarantee you word it as.

BigCityofDreams
06-22-2012, 03:45 PM
Yea, he had won 3, riding shaq's back.

Shaq dominated those finals and won all 3 finals MVP with Kobe as second fiddle.

Anyway, at least Hawkeye gets what I am trying to say.

SMH wow

MJ-BULLS
06-22-2012, 03:46 PM
The ONLY difference and what makes it soo different is that NETHER Kobe nor MJ ran away from what they were handed or ran to go get help.

This isn't a Bron bash as much as it is clearing up why people disregard the whole help issues cause yeah MJ had a great cast and so did Kobe however they didn't go to the help.

well said.

Swashcuff
06-22-2012, 03:46 PM
@ JordansBulls

I am not taking anything away from MJ, he is the GOAT of the NBA, but had Pippen not developed, MJ would have never won. He had an amazing team.

Kobe, not saying any more, everything I had/wanted to say has been said.

My point again before I need to go.

LeBron saw no sign of improvement in Cleveland. He essentially led a bunch of scrubs to 60 win seasons and the playoffs every year. Cleveland had one of the worst F.O.'s in the NBA, choosing Antwan Jamison over Amare because of JJ HICKSON. They had no pieces to improve either, so how can you blame LBJ for leaving.

Kobe has been gifted 3 titles with Shaq, and if not for the L.A. FO being one of the best would have left L.A. after Kobe ran Shaq out.

How can you say MJ would have never won without Pippen?

avrpatsfan
06-22-2012, 03:47 PM
Jordan was the only player who made the allstar team on the Bulls when they first won the title in 1991 and did it again in 1998. Not to mention the Bulls didn't give MJ a star.

MJ didn't acquire a guy that was a top 10 player either. He acquired a guy that was coming off the bench that became a top 10 player in the league over time after playing with MJ. That is a Big Difference. It's one thing if MJ got Pippen like Wade got Shaq when he was already a top 5-10 player in the league. He didn't though.

So Saying Lebron didn't have a top 10 player on his team is irrelevant in this case because MJ didn't get a top 10 player either to play with. The equivalent of that happening for Lebron is basically having a guy who came off the bench initially and that was raw and then a few years later is an allstar and top player in the league. Example for Lebron would be JJ Hickson turning into a star.

When I say handed I am referring to being "handed" to a team as a star already basically being a "developed player". Examples: Shaq to Miami in 2005, Ray Allen to Boston in 2008, Barkley to Phoenix in 1993, Drexler to Houston in 1995. Basically guys when they were already proven stars in the league and great 1st/2nd options on teams.
Manu nor Parker were handed to the Duncan. "They developed while playing with him." Same thing with Pippen. They were not developed players before hand. Jamsion, Shaq, Mo were already developed players. Shaq was getting 17 and 8 last season, Jamison 20 and 8 and Mo 17 and 6 before playing with the Cavs the year before.


And the thing people are forgetting is that the Heat had the most allstars the past 2 seasons on the allstar team. Not to mention Lebron joined forces with a top 3-5 player who already won a title as the main guy. That is totally different.

Lebron had a better chance in Cleveland to be in that top echelon. Leaving a team to go play with a proven winner in his prime is not going to put you in that top 3 all time when you don't bring a title to the franchise that drafted you. Essentially the way he is getting titles, any player can do. Just go jump ship and play with another elite player that has already gotten it done.
Lebron decided to play with a guy who won as the man already in that player's city. It would have been like someone like MJ leaving Chicago to Detroit in 1989 to play with Isiah Thomas when he already won as the man and then try to proclaim MJ as the GOAT when he left to go play with a proven winner in his city.



Wade stayed with the Franchise that drafted him, he won a title with the franchise that drafted him. He brought the city it's only title a city that drafted him. Shaq was traded to Miami, Wade didn't join forces or go play with Shaq, Shaq went to play with Wade. The same thing Lebron and Bosh did. They wanted to play with the proven winner in his city that the franchise drafted him in.


You trying to tell me it would have helped MJ's case in the all time rankings going to play with Isiah in Detroit in his city when Isiah was already a proven winner at the time? I don't think so.

Anyway, I don't call going to play with a guy who already won a title as the man in Wade "getting help", that is more that you are begging him for help to get you over the hump since he actually proved he can win as the man.
I think you just won this thread haha.

northsider
06-22-2012, 03:48 PM
How can you say MJ would have never won without Pippen?

Yeah I don't really get where that assumption came up.

BigCityofDreams
06-22-2012, 03:48 PM
Its funny people b***ch about LeBron leaving Cleveland....did all those idiots forget about how Kobe DEMANDED A TRADE when the going got rough in LA?!!

And then to shut his whiny *** up, they traded for Gasol and ripped off Memphis.

Memphis didn't get ripped off

It's not like they traded for Pau right after his tirade

BigBongTheory
06-22-2012, 03:49 PM
Role players play a huge amount in a team winning, I don't even like to use the word role players. There is Great players, and then decent/good players that get the "Great player itch" from time to time. Noone does it by themselves, but to someone earlier in this thread, Dirk winning the ship last year isn't even comparable.

2 other star players >> 4 man rotation of decent/good players (Terry, Chandler, Barea, Marion).

And when comparing, not only do you have the two other star players, but add on 4 good role players in Chalmers, Miller, and Battier, and Haslem. Who all played roles in key moments. Last years Mavs team knew how to make the right moves and adjust, Miami was way more stacked, but they had Dirk, and players knew what to expect having been in the position before, Carlisle made the moves necessary to be able to stay in the game with lesser talent and physicality.

xxplayerxx23
06-22-2012, 03:50 PM
I think he meant if pippen doesnt develop he doesnt win 6.

Nikeman
06-22-2012, 03:50 PM
Wrong assumption my bad

What I meant was, had MJ never been eventually given a complete team, he may have never won a title either, because like LeBron he put up dominant numbers by himself, but never won until Age 28 when the Bulls teams became legendary

Il Mago50
06-22-2012, 03:52 PM
The fact that you made this thread is stupid.

The reason people hated on Lebron is not that he needed to have stars by him to win. The reason they hated on Lebron is that many of us felt cheated that the player we thought would win titles down the line decided to team up with the second best player in the league and a top 15 player in FA. It was the way in which he did it that gave us all a bad taste in our mouth.

Was Kobe a top 10 player when Shaq came through in FA? No. He was just a kid out of high school who wasn't even a top 10 pick in the draft. The team they built was more traditional because you brought in a star in their case and developed Fisher and Kobe and brought players like Horry in later on as compliments.

Jordan was drafted by the Bulls who later drafted Pippen as well. They were developed together and pieces were brought in. Kukoc was also drafted. They built their team in much the same way OKC did.

Duncan's Spurs teams were a product of great drafting and coaching and their players all grew together.



You start getting the point yet???

The greats get the help they need eventually unless the team is run by baboons. In his last season, they almost brought in Amare to Cleveland and still ended up getting Jamison who is a very good 3rd option on that team. Had Lebron left to Chicago, it wouldn't have gotten the hatred by any means because that team had very good young players and it would be a Shaq like scenario.

Instead he chose to go play with a player that he should be competing with year in and year out (Wade) and Bosh who I have less problem against since he's a 2nd option to a star.

He got the hatred because he took the easy road, did it in a awful and egotistical way and strayed totally away from traditional ways to build a team. (trade assets, sign and develop, draft)

northsider
06-22-2012, 03:53 PM
Wrong assumption my bad

What I meant was, had MJ never been eventually given a complete team, he may have never won a title either, because like LeBron he put up dominant numbers by himself, but never won until Age 28 when the Bulls teams became legendary

Fair enough.

8kobe24
06-22-2012, 03:53 PM
Amnesty MJ.

F that...Amnesty wade.

CubbySwag313
06-22-2012, 03:55 PM
Jordan was the only player who made the allstar team on the Bulls when they first won the title in 1991 and did it again in 1998. Not to mention the Bulls didn't give MJ a star.

MJ didn't acquire a guy that was a top 10 player either. He acquired a guy that was coming off the bench that became a top 10 player in the league over time after playing with MJ. That is a Big Difference. It's one thing if MJ got Pippen like Wade got Shaq when he was already a top 5-10 player in the league. He didn't though.

So Saying Lebron didn't have a top 10 player on his team is irrelevant in this case because MJ didn't get a top 10 player either to play with. The equivalent of that happening for Lebron is basically having a guy who came off the bench initially and that was raw and then a few years later is an allstar and top player in the league. Example for Lebron would be JJ Hickson turning into a star.

When I say handed I am referring to being "handed" to a team as a star already basically being a "developed player". Examples: Shaq to Miami in 2005, Ray Allen to Boston in 2008, Barkley to Phoenix in 1993, Drexler to Houston in 1995. Basically guys when they were already proven stars in the league and great 1st/2nd options on teams.
Manu nor Parker were handed to the Duncan. "They developed while playing with him." Same thing with Pippen. They were not developed players before hand. Jamsion, Shaq, Mo were already developed players. Shaq was getting 17 and 8 last season, Jamison 20 and 8 and Mo 17 and 6 before playing with the Cavs the year before.


And the thing people are forgetting is that the Heat had the most allstars the past 2 seasons on the allstar team. Not to mention Lebron joined forces with a top 3-5 player who already won a title as the main guy. That is totally different.

Lebron had a better chance in Cleveland to be in that top echelon. Leaving a team to go play with a proven winner in his prime is not going to put you in that top 3 all time when you don't bring a title to the franchise that drafted you. Essentially the way he is getting titles, any player can do. Just go jump ship and play with another elite player that has already gotten it done.
Lebron decided to play with a guy who won as the man already in that player's city. It would have been like someone like MJ leaving Chicago to Detroit in 1989 to play with Isiah Thomas when he already won as the man and then try to proclaim MJ as the GOAT when he left to go play with a proven winner in his city.



Wade stayed with the Franchise that drafted him, he won a title with the franchise that drafted him. He brought the city it's only title a city that drafted him. Shaq was traded to Miami, Wade didn't join forces or go play with Shaq, Shaq went to play with Wade. The same thing Lebron and Bosh did. They wanted to play with the proven winner in his city that the franchise drafted him in.


You trying to tell me it would have helped MJ's case in the all time rankings going to play with Isiah in Detroit in his city when Isiah was already a proven winner at the time? I don't think so.

Anyway, I don't call going to play with a guy who already won a title as the man in Wade "getting help", that is more that you are begging him for help to get you over the hump since he actually proved he can win as the man.



What a great great great post! I couldnt of said it better myself....You pretty much summed up everything I was thinking and wanted to say.

I agree 100% with everything. Awesome post!

BigBongTheory
06-22-2012, 03:56 PM
Its funny people b***ch about LeBron leaving Cleveland....did all those idiots forget about how Kobe DEMANDED A TRADE when the going got rough in LA?!!

And then to shut his whiny *** up, they traded for Gasol and ripped off Memphis.

Teams make trades to shut their superstars up? The same superstars that make the city and franchise millions of dollars per year? If they truly wanted to shut Kobe up, wouldn't they have shipped him off like Lamar Odom? Don't all teams usually atleast try to trade for talent or make tinker moves when they are looking to compete? Or atleast build a solid ground for a championship in the long run?

LA trading for Gasol meant Marc Gasol going to Memphis, how has that worked out? Is he a bust? It also opened up the cap-room for them to sign Zach Randolph. Nowhere close to a rip-off.

Cubby
06-22-2012, 03:59 PM
LeBron has the help of another top five player in the NBA. MJ did not.

BullsBearsSox11
06-22-2012, 04:03 PM
The Fact is Kobe didnt Leave the Lakers to win a Championship he threatened management and they got the job Done by acquiring Shaq and Gasol.

The Bulls built the team around MJ and he won 6 rings with alot of different players, took Jordan 6 years to get his first Championship!!

Lebron Promised Cleveland (His Hometown) a Championship and Failed so ditched them without any notice to help them get something back and joined his two friends on another team to form a allstar team!!

Jordan and Kobe never left there team to go team up with anyone else!! They wanted to beat the best not be teamates

JWO35
06-22-2012, 04:06 PM
Darko won it by himself...

koreancabbage
06-22-2012, 04:10 PM
Mavs were stacked? rofl.
Having an actual team consisting of 1 star and 4 role players >>>>> some randomly thrown team with 3 superstars and 2 roleplayers. Mavs weren't stacked, they are a true team though. They were indeed the better team because they knew how to adjust and lock down Lebron. Don't even go the "Mavs were stacked" because the Heat were picked to be the favorites by everybody....:facepalm::facepalm:

yes mavs were stacked with very good players, deep bench. not superstars perhaps but very good chemistry. I didn't say Miami was better or Mavs were better but to be blinded that Mavs didn't have an amazing team is an understatement. Nowitzki had tremendous help from his team and it was a team effort more so than Nowitzki himself. If anything Tyson Chandler made them champions with that interior defense and you're still saying Nowitzki won it by himself? get real man it was a whole entire team effort that beat the Miami Heat

MJ-BULLS
06-22-2012, 04:10 PM
Darko won it by himself...

Scal won it for BOS and Morrison for LA...

smith&wesson
06-22-2012, 04:15 PM
Can we please please please clear this misconception up?

I keep seeing Bulls/Lakers and other fans posting LeBron is a coward, because he could not win himself. That is utterly false and disgusting to see.

Michael Jordan's cast-

Scottie Pippen: A ****ing legend in his own right. Nough said. PIPPEN guarded the best perimeter player of other teams, not Jordan which i am 99% sure helped him out a ton.

Dennis Rodman: One of the toughest mofos of all time, and amazing rebounder

Horace Grant: Pretty much averaged a double-double

Steve Kerr: Amazing 3 pt shooter

Tony Kukoch: Amazing 3 pt shooter/scorer

B.J. Armstrong- A double digit scorer on a consistent basis


Kobe Bryant's Teams:

Shaq- Nothing needed here, although I will add, that KOBE rode Shaq's back to 3 titles, as SHAQ was the finals MVP each time and KOBE was second fiddle.

D-Fish: Clutch PG

Etc etc.

In fact, Kobe is so selfish he ran Shaq out of town because he realized he was second fiddle.

So what happens?

For I believe 2-3 years, the Lakers are not even relevant UNTIL they get Pau, who at the time of being acquired was probably the MOST SKILLED and BEST post player in the league.

What's my point?

Stop with the bull that LBJ could not win by himself, because I can argue that Kobe and Jordan's teams were even BETTER than this Heat team that won last night.

What the difference? Cleveland provided LeBron with players like Antwan Jamison and Anderson Vaerjao, while Chicago and LA brought in superstars to pair with Jordan and Kobe. So please stop with this nonsense that LeBron can't win by himself, because nobody has or will.

I feel like PSD is a bunch of 10 year old idiots that know nothing about the history of basketball, or basketball itself.

I am sure this thread will not even get many comments, because people only like to read what sides with them and not facts.

Jordan had two hof players in pippen & rodman.. also you forgot that he also had ron harper on his team along with the others that you mentioned.

kobe had shaq and then he had gasol, bynum odom.

Its called blind hate. ppl just dont want to give lebron credit even though its deserved.

lakersrock
06-22-2012, 04:19 PM
In fact, Kobe is so selfish he ran Shaq out of town because he realized he was second fiddle.

Wrong. Jerry Buss didn't want to give Shaq 5-100.....for good reason too. He broke down.

koreancabbage
06-22-2012, 04:27 PM
LeBron has the help of another top five player in the NBA. MJ did not.

he didn't need it- he got the refs on his side ;) first of his kind to get consistent superstar calls.

smiddy012
06-22-2012, 04:45 PM
he didn't need it- he got the refs on his side ;) first of his kind to get consistent superstar calls.


1991: 8.2 FTA
1992: 7.4 FTA
1993: 7.3 FTA
1996: 8.0 FTA
1997: 7.0 FTA
1998: 8.8 FTA (this was the only year of his career I thought he was getting a bit too much love from the refs)

Jordan has two seasons of 10+ FTA/g, both on 24+ FGA/g.

You realize his career FTA/FGA is about 0.358, right? That's WAY lower than what you see out of Kobe, Wade, Lebron, etc, etc. Kobe's career FTA/FGA, even accounting for his pre-05 seasons, is .395, and it would have been higher if he'd played his entire career in years from 04-05 onward. Wade's at .503, Lebron at .434, Melo at about .410.

Should I go on?

Anyone who complains that Jordan got too many calls is flat-out ignorant. There aren't many seasons where his raw FTA/g were that bad, and there are only two or three seasons where he got anything like the favorable treatment seen by stars today. He got to the line because, like someone such as Wade, he drove a lot. Only the rules were different and he had to drive and shoot a lot more to earn his trips to the line. It's pure BS when people complain that Jordan got more calls than anyone else. David Robinson, Karl Malone and Charles Barkley are all examples of guys that got roughly equivalent or noticeably more favorable treatment from the refs in terms of how often they went to the line. Barkley's at .554 FTA/FGA on his career, BTW, while Robinson and Malone are at .577 and .503.

Did someone want to go back and re-learn their NBA history before continuing?

Thanks.

And yes, I realize you were probably being sarcastic....

smiddy012
06-22-2012, 04:47 PM
Jordan had two hof players in pippen & rodman.. also you forgot that he also had ron harper on his team along with the others that you mentioned.

kobe had shaq and then he had gasol, bynum odom.

Its called blind hate. ppl just dont want to give lebron credit even though its deserved.

For 3 years he had Rodman... and MJ actually developed Pippen btw. Pippen never would have been the player he was without MJ. It's not like MJ joined Larry, The Dream, or Magic to get his first ring lol, along with another top 20 player... and no Ron Harper was not a top 20 player....

knightstemplar
06-22-2012, 04:54 PM
Kobe Bryant's Teams:

Shaq- Nothing needed here, although I will add, that KOBE rode Shaq's back to 3 titles, as SHAQ was the finals MVP each time and KOBE was second fiddle.


2001 NBA Playoffs
Shaq - 30.4 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 3.2 apg, 55.5 FG%, 56.4 TS%
Kobe - 29.4 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 6.1 apg, 46.9 FG%, 55.5 TS%

2002 NBA Playoffs
Shaq - 28.5 ppg, 12.6 rpg, 2.8 apg, 52.9 FG%, 56.9 TS%
Kobe - 26.6 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 4.6 apg, 43.4 FG%, 51.1 TS%

Kobe led the lakers in PPG and APG through through entire Western Conference Playoffs in 2001 and 2002

2001 NBA Playoffs - First 3 Rounds
Kobe - 31.6 PPG, 7.0 RPG, 6.3 APG, .492 FG%
Shaq - 29.3 PPG, 15.3 RPG, 2.5 APG, .547 FG%

2002 NBA Playoffs - First 3 Rounds
Kobe - 26.6 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 4.4 APG, .418 FG%
Shaq - 26.4 PPG, 12.7 RPG, 2.6 APG, .510 FG%

Kobe led the Lakers in PPG and APG in 2/4 series in 2001 and 2/4 series in 2002. A total of 4/8 series both years combined.

2001 Western Conf Semifnals
2001 Western Conf Finals
2002 Western Conf 1st Round
2002 Western Conf Semifinals

Kobe led the Lakers in Field Goals Made in the 2nd Half and 4th Quarters of the 2002 NBA Playoffs

2002 NBA Playoffs - 2nd Half+OT
Bryant - 97/214 FG, 17/37 3PT, 45.3 FG%, 49.3 eFG%, 45.9 3PT% in 19 games
O'Neal - 85/186 FG, 0/0 3PT, 45.7 FG%, 45.7 eFG%, 0.0 3PT% in 19 games

2002 NBA Playoffs - 4th Quarter+OT
Bryant - 52/106 FG, 12/24 3PT, 49.1 FG%, 54.7 eFG%, 50.0 3PT% in 19 games
O'Neal - 32/85 FG, 0/0 3PT, 37.6 FG%, 37.6 eFG%, 0.0 3PT% in 18 games

http://bkref.com/tiny/XrN1r
http://bkref.com/tiny/5VGjG
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?t=732576

popo85
06-22-2012, 04:54 PM
Co-sign with Hawkeye's posts

Pacerlive
06-22-2012, 04:54 PM
For 3 years he had Rodman... and MJ actually developed Pippen btw. Pippen never would have been the player he was without MJ. It's not like MJ joined Larry, The Dream, or Magic to get his first ring lol, along with another top 20 player... and no Ron Harper was not a top 20 player....

LOL at whoever said Ron Harper was a top 20 player. The guy didn't even average over 10 points when he was with the Bulls.

smith&wesson
06-22-2012, 05:01 PM
MJ didn't acquire a guy that was a top 10 player either. He acquired a guy that was coming off the bench that became a top 10 player in the league over time after playing with MJ. That is a Big Difference. It's one thing if MJ got Pippen like Wade got Shaq when he was already a top 5-10 player in the league. He didn't though.

none of this means that jordan could have won 6 rings with out pippen.

also just because pippen became a great player while playing with the bulls doesnt mean you give all the credit to jordan for pippen becoming great. whos to say if prime pippen played with hakeem he wouldnt have been just as good or even better ??

no matter how you look at it jordan did not win rings with out playing with another hof player. infact he played with 2 hof players and thats the point. no great team wins with out talent no matter how that talent is attained.

LakersSaintsLSU
06-22-2012, 05:05 PM
Can we please please please clear this misconception up?

I keep seeing Bulls/Lakers and other fans posting LeBron is a coward, because he could not win himself. That is utterly false and disgusting to see.

Michael Jordan's cast-

Scottie Pippen: A ****ing legend in his own right. Nough said. PIPPEN guarded the best perimeter player of other teams, not Jordan which i am 99% sure helped him out a ton.

Dennis Rodman: One of the toughest mofos of all time, and amazing rebounder

Horace Grant: Pretty much averaged a double-double

Steve Kerr: Amazing 3 pt shooter

Tony Kukoch: Amazing 3 pt shooter/scorer

B.J. Armstrong- A double digit scorer on a consistent basis


Kobe Bryant's Teams:

Shaq- Nothing needed here, although I will add, that KOBE rode Shaq's back to 3 titles, as SHAQ was the finals MVP each time and KOBE was second fiddle.

D-Fish: Clutch PG

Etc etc.

In fact, Kobe is so selfish he ran Shaq out of town because he realized he was second fiddle.

So what happens?

For I believe 2-3 years, the Lakers are not even relevant UNTIL they get Pau, who at the time of being acquired was probably the MOST SKILLED and BEST post player in the league.

What's my point?

Stop with the bull that LBJ could not win by himself, because I can argue that Kobe and Jordan's teams were even BETTER than this Heat team that won last night.

What the difference? Cleveland provided LeBron with players like Antwan Jamison and Anderson Vaerjao, while Chicago and LA brought in superstars to pair with Jordan and Kobe. So please stop with this nonsense that LeBron can't win by himself, because nobody has or will.

I feel like PSD is a bunch of 10 year old idiots that know nothing about the history of basketball, or basketball itself.

I am sure this thread will not even get many comments, because people only like to read what sides with them and not facts.

:facepalm::facepalm:I bet you had this written two years ago waiting to hit "potst" fact is mj 6 kb 5.....lebron 1 just 1? yep 1 in a lockout season with the "FIX"

LakersSaintsLSU
06-22-2012, 05:07 PM
And Kobe and MJ didnt leave their team to jock ride another superstar

rickshaw
06-22-2012, 05:11 PM
And Kobe and MJ didnt leave their team to jock ride another superstar

Yes, and Kobe would never demand a trade from a team with no one else on it.....

And Lebron won MVP and Finals MVP. Not sure whos jock was being ridden there.

Teeboy1487
06-22-2012, 05:13 PM
Scal won it for BOS and Morrison for LA...

Don't forget Eddy Curry for MIA.

kalel
06-22-2012, 05:18 PM
Exactly, just better proves my point.

Everyone pretty much had superstar players with them by their side.

Agreed that Hakeem can be argued as doing it by himself in 1994, but Kenny Smith was a decent PG, and Otis Thorpe helped him out a ton averaging a double double and made their front line dominant. Vernon Maxwell also a good player.

you sir are a moron for mentioning all those names with out a guy named clyde drexler, you know the only other one on that team besides hakeem in the HOF.

smith&wesson
06-22-2012, 05:18 PM
:facepalm::facepalm:I bet you had this written two years ago waiting to hit "potst" fact is mj 6 kb 5.....lebron 1 just 1? yep 1 in a lockout season with the "FIX"


And Kobe and MJ didnt leave their team to jock ride another superstar

lebron may only have one ring. but i think your forgetting that he is only 26 years old

1. kobe demanded a trade before the lakers brought gasol in to play with him.

2.your right kobe didnt leave his team ... but shaq did. how do you think kobe won his first 3 rings ? he wasnt the mvp in his first 3 runs shaq was. shaq left orlando, lebron left clevland. when shaq went to la he was the mvp not kobe, when lebron went to miami he is the mvp not wade.

i love kobe.. 10 x more then ill ever like lebron. but your basically coming up with anything to discredit lebron.

the guys numbers speak for them selves. he was beasting in these playoffs and thats all that matters. he delIvered.

monzternipz12
06-22-2012, 05:20 PM
Last time I checked, the game of basketball is a team sport. So in essence, no one has ever won the championship by themselves. NO ONE!! Maybe the OP just wants to somehow equate Lebron with MJ and Kobe which any real basketball fan with an ounce of intelligence would know that its too early to make comparisons. Hey Miami fans, enjoy you're championship. As a Bulls fan, I can say Lebron deserves this ring. No matter how it went down, Lebron LEAD this team to a championship. NOT WADE NOT BOSH. Lebron's talents are out of this world, but his legacy is not even close to MJ or Kobe....YET!

Word of advice coming from a Bulls fan: Miami fans need to appreciate and soak up this championship bc these 3 superstars can easily break up and you'd be left with nothing and y'all be looking forward to a decade of loserville. Enjoy you're ring bc it can easily be your last!!

JordansBulls
06-22-2012, 05:23 PM
none of this means that jordan could have won 6 rings with out pippen.

also just because pippen became a great player while playing with the bulls doesnt mean you give all the credit to jordan for pippen becoming great. whos to say if prime pippen played with hakeem he wouldnt have been just as good or even better ??

no matter how you look at it jordan did not win rings with out playing with another hof player. infact he played with 2 hof players and thats the point. no great team wins with out talent no matter how no matter how that talent is attained.

Pippen was no hall of famer when the Bulls won there first title in 1991. Hell he was not even a hall of famer after there 2nd title. He made 1 allstar team up to that point what made him a hall of famer?

And if you are going to use that Jordan had Rodman who didn't even make the allstar team on the Bulls then Lebron also played with Shaq who is a 1x league mvp and 3x finals mvp winner and Ben Wallace as well who was younger than Rodman by 4 years. Both of which were the best players on championship teams.

And this is how I know Pippen doesn't become the player he became elsewhere

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=22617287

But since you weren't around watching the Bulls you wouldn't know this.

Furymaker
06-22-2012, 05:24 PM
Chicago didn't bring superstars for MJ , they became superstars as you call Pippen , Kukoc , Grant , etc. playing next to the GOAT .

KW93KB24
06-22-2012, 05:26 PM
who would leave Shaq, Fisher, Fox, Shaw, Horry, Bynum, Gasol, or Pippen, Kukoc, Kerr, Paxon, Grant, Cartwright, Rodman, or Phil Jackson?

Now, who would leave Mo Williams, Sideshow Bob, 200 year old Big Z, and Mike Brown?

The answer to the first question is an idiot.

The answer to the second question is any player who would rather win.

who would leave kwame brown, brian cook, jordan farmar, sasha v., jarvis crittenton, LUKE WALTON, AND CHRIS ****ING MIHM :facepalm: god i hated that guy. Kobe had to deal with these guys for a few years.

Now that cavs team that lebron left is better than the guys i listed.

JordansBulls
06-22-2012, 05:27 PM
true, but now you can make an argument that this was truly Lebron's will in winning a championship with" role players " like Wade and Bosh. That this championship was because of Lebron.

which makes his run in the playoffs even more amazing and truly great due to underwhelming performances from Bosh and Wade

Pippen's PER during the Bulls years they won 22.0, 20.1, 16.9, 19.4, 18.1, 19.5 in the playoffs and 20.6, 21.5, 19.2, 21.0, 21.3, 20.4 in the Regular Season

Dwyane Wade's PER was 22.0 in the playoffs and 26.3 in the Regular Season

So Wade is a role player when he averaged 23/6/5/1/1 in the finals and 23/5/4 in the playoffs as a whole and had a 22 PER while in the season he had a 26.3 PER.

Damn what role player puts up a 26.3 PER for a season? Some of you guys are unbelievable with the **** you come up with. And as a note each year the Bulls won the title Pippen's PER was lower than what Wade was in the playoffs and definitely lower in the season.

KW93KB24
06-22-2012, 05:32 PM
Yes, and Kobe would never demand a trade from a team with no one else on it.....

And Lebron won MVP and Finals MVP. Not sure whos jock was being ridden there.

Hey maybe if lebron demanded a trade or showed that he's unhappy with his cast then cleveland would bring in another all star caliber player, but you know it's a lot better to leave your team in FA.

The team had the number 1 seed TWO years in a row. What else help did they need? you guys seem to make out that cavs team as the worst team in the nba.

Nikeman
06-22-2012, 05:35 PM
I guess my point I was trying to make was, to those that say LeBron cheated his way to a title,

I do not think he did, because he only went to a better team where he had legit help. He put up legendary numbers and won his first.

Haters will hate no point trying to make a point.

Shark
06-22-2012, 05:36 PM
I love how when a non heat fan starts a thread, they start bashing them for starting a heat thread. Then when a heat fan starts a thread, it starts with them always trying to defend something and prove everyone wrong.

Look we get it, you guys have LeBron and Wade, you guys are the "cool guys".

Oh and yes, obviously nobody wins a title on their own, theres 5 players from each side on the floor at all times, which makes a sport fun to watch when players play as a team. It just drove me nuts when LeBron and Wade were playing with each other and scoring 60-80 of the teams points instead of getting the team involved which for the first time I can actually say the Heat played as a WHOLE TEAM.

KW93KB24
06-22-2012, 05:39 PM
Its funny people b***ch about LeBron leaving Cleveland....did all those idiots forget about how Kobe DEMANDED A TRADE when the going got rough in LA?!!

And then to shut his whiny *** up, they traded for Gasol and ripped off Memphis.

Dude shut the **** up with how we ripped off memphis. Is Marc Gasol not a all star center? they got him part of the pau trade, you moron.

And yeah kobe demanded a trade, sometimes you have to so you get your help, but you don't leave your team in the dark on NATIONAL TELEVISION to find out if you're staying or not. Like i said before, maybe lebron should of demanded a trade to get cleveland to actually bring in a player he likes. LeBRON RAN CLEVELAND AND THAT ORGANIZATION AND IF HE WANTED SOMEONE SPECIFIC THEN I'M PRETTY ****ING SURE THEY WOULD OF LISTENED TO BRON.

smith&wesson
06-22-2012, 05:43 PM
Pippen was no hall of famer when the Bulls won there first title in 1991. Hell he was not even a hall of famer after there 2nd title. He made 1 allstar team up to that point what made him a hall of famer?

And if you are going to use that Jordan had Rodman who didn't even make the allstar team on the Bulls then Lebron also played with Shaq who is a 1x league mvp and 3x finals mvp winner and Ben Wallace as well who was younger than Rodman by 4 years. Both of which were the best players on championship teams.

And this is how I know Pippen doesn't become the player he became elsewhere

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=22617287

But since you weren't around watching the Bulls you wouldn't know this.

why would pippen be a hof player in the middle of his career ? am I supose to take that seriously :confused: he is a hof player because of the body of work he did through out his career.

why are you using the allstar game as a measure of talent ? every one knows the allstar game is a popularity contest.

rodman
2x defensive player of the year
7x rebounding champion
7x all defensive first team
2x all nba third team

rodman was praised he by his peers. just because the guy wasnt a scorer doesnt mean he wasnt a great player.

lebron played with a ben wallace and shaq that were way way passed their prime. i dont care how old they were. nash is 38 and still playing at a high level. every ones age effects them differently. when rodman was playing with jordan he still had tons left in the tank and we both know this to be true. lets not act like rodman wasnt a contributer and one of the best players jordan played with.

rodmans D, and rebounding were unmatched. i would take rodman (same age as he was when playing with the bulls) over bosh as the 3rd piece on my team. easily.

I was around when jordan was playing. your just making asumptions now jb. asumptions that are not proving your point in anyway.

ThunderZubb
06-22-2012, 05:52 PM
You wonder fans hate Miami HEAT TEAM AND IT'S FANS BECAUSE STUPID THREADS LIKE THIS COMPARING LEBRON TO MICHAEL JORDAN OR SAYING LEBRON WILL BE THE BEST PLAYER ALL TIME IN THE NEXT 10 YEARS GIMMIE ME A BREAK SERIOUSLY. IT IS MOSTLY MIAMI HEAT FANS WHO ARE 16 Years old or younger. HAHA WHAT A JOKE HAVE YOU JOBBERS WATCHED MICHAEL JORDAN PLAY AGAINST THE BAD BOYS IN HIS PRIME. YOU KNOW HOW HE GOT HIT BADLY BY BAD BOYS PISTONS TRUST ME DEREK FISHER FOUL WAS NOT A FRAGANT AND I AM TELLING LEBRON WOULD NOT SURVIVE IN THE 90 ERA. CHARLIE OAKLEY, DENNIS RODMAN, BILL LIAMBEER, ANTHONY MASON AND ETC WOULD OF ATE LEBRON ALIVE PLUS HE HAS NO ****ING HEART.

LEBRON CANNOT HOLD MICHAEL JORDAN JOCKSTRAP

JordansBulls
06-22-2012, 05:54 PM
why would pippen be a hof player in the middle of his career ? am I supose to take that seriously :confused: he is a hof player because of the body of work he did through out his career.

why are you using the allstar game as a measure of talent ? every one knows the allstar game is a popularity contest.

rodman
2x defensive player of the year
7x rebounding champion
7x all defensive first team
2x all nba third team

rodman was praised he by his peers. just because the guy wasnt a scorer doesnt mean he wasnt a great player.

lebron played with a ben wallace and shaq that were way way passed their prime. i dont care how old they were. nash is 38 and still playing at a high level. every ones age effects them differently. when rodman was playing with jordan he still had tons left in the tank and we both know this to be true. lets not act like rodman wasnt a contributer and one of the best players jordan played with.

rodmans D, and rebounding were unmatched. i would take rodman (same age as he was when playing with the bulls) over bosh as the 3rd piece on my team over bosh. easily.

Except Pippen wasn't an allstar in 1991 nor was he a hall of fame player in 1991 either. He may have been a hall of famer by 1996 though.

And Bosh is better than Rodman as a star. Rodman was never better than the 3rd best player on his teams. Bosh was leading teams to the playoffs as the best player on it. Your team isn't going to make the playoffs if Rodman is the clear cut best player on it.

Ben Wallace

4x allstar
4x DPOY
5x All NBA Defensive 1st Team
2x All NBA 2nd Team

So I can do the same thing as well. Not to mention was the ONLY player that made the allstar team on a team that won it all. 2004 Ben Wallace was the only allstar on the Detroit Pistons.

Ben Wallace was 33 when he joined Lebron, Rodman was 35 when he joined the Bulls.
So don't give me this crap he was wayyy past his prime when Rodman was the one that was.

So if people are going to mention the Bulls having a 35-37 year old Rodman who never made an allstar team with the team, then I certainly can mention Ben Wallace.

Rodman had a 13.6, 13.9 and 12.4 PER on the Bulls as well as a .143, .148 and .131 WS/48

Ben Wallace had a 12.4, 12.2 and .138 WS/48 on the Cavs.

Rodman was 35-37 while Wallace was 33, 34 on the Cavs

Let's not forget the Heat had 3 guys make the allstar team this year as well, Bulls with MJ around never had more than 2. Not to mention MJ never played with anyone on his team that was more proven than him. Lebron had Ben Wallace who was the only allstar on a team that won it all, Lebron had Shaq who has a league mvp and 3 finals mvp's and now he he has Wade who won as the man and has a finals mvp.

SteBO
06-22-2012, 05:55 PM
And Kobe and MJ didnt leave their team to jock ride another superstar
Yeah, because prime Shaq, Pau Gasol, and Andrew Bynum are such awful teammates. I mean, nobody can win with those guys......:laugh2:

northsider
06-22-2012, 05:59 PM
For as much **** as JB gets he is far from the crazy guy people paint him to be.

Kyben36
06-22-2012, 06:04 PM
they did not have the refs and david stern to help them though.

smith&wesson
06-22-2012, 06:05 PM
Except Pippen wasn't an allstar in 1991 nor was he a hall of fame player in 1991 either. He may have been a hall of famer by 1996 though.

And Bosh is better than Rodman as a star. Rodman was never better than the 3rd best player on his teams. Bosh was leading teams to the playoffs as the best player on it. Your team isn't going to make the playoffs if Rodman is the clear cut best player on it.

Ben Wallace

4x allstar
4x DPOY
5x All NBA Defensive 1st Team
2x All NBA 2nd Team

So I can do the same thing as well. Not to mention was the ONLY player that made the allstar team on a team that won it all. 2004 Ben Wallace was the only allstar on the Detroit Pistons.

Ben Wallace was 33 when he joined Lebron, Rodman was 35 when he joined the Bulls.
So don't give me this crap he was wayyy past his prime when Rodman was the one that was.

So if people are going to mention the Bulls having a 35-37 year old Rodman who never made an allstar team with the team, then I certainly can mention Ben Wallace.

Rodman had a 13.6, 13.9 and 12.4 PER on the Bulls as well as a .143, .148 and .131 WS/48

Ben Wallace had a 12.4, 12.2 and .138 WS/48 on the Cavs.

Rodman was 35-37 while Wallace was 33, 34 on the Cavs

Let's not forget the Heat had 3 guys make the allstar team this year as well, Bulls with MJ around never had more than 2. Not to mention MJ never played with anyone on his team that was more proven than him. Lebron had Ben Wallace who was the only allstar on a team that won it all, Lebron had Shaq who has a league mvp and 3 finals mvp's and now he he has Wade who won as the man and has a finals mvp.

LOL your a funny guy. why does it matter how old rodman was when he played with the bulls if he was still an effective player ?

simple questin. was ben wallace or shaq still very good players when they played with lebron ? no they werent. again age doesnt effect every one the same way. if you cant agree on that then your simply bypassing the facts.

when rodman was playing on the bulls no matter how old he was still a really great defender and rebounder. when ben wallace and shaq played with lebron they were scrubs. accept it as it is true..

bosh is a better scorer then rodman ever was. but rodman would kill bosh on d and rebounding. funny you said bosh lead his team to the playoffs. i guess your reffering to my raptors ? in 6 seasons bosh was able to win 2 playoffs games with the raptors. thats outstanding!!

again all star games are popularity contests!! that is no way of measuring how talented a player is. if gasol didnt make the all star game this season does it mean that he is no longer a talented player in this league ?

JordansBulls
06-22-2012, 06:10 PM
LOL your a funny guy. why does it matter how old rodman was when he played with the bulls if he was still an effective player ?

simple questin. was ben wallace or shaq still very good players when they played with lebron ? no they werent. again age doesnt effect every one the same way. if you cant agree on that then your simply bypassing the facts.

when rodman was playing on the bulls no matter how old he was still a really great defender and rebounder. when ben wallace and shaq played with lebron they were scrubs. accept it as it is true..

bosh is a better scorer then rodman ever was. but rodman would kill bosh on d and rebounding. funn you said bosh lead his teams to the playoffs. i guess your reffering to my raptors ? in 6 seasons bosh was able to win 2 playoffs games with the raptors. thats outstanding!!

Yes it is better than what Rodman would do as the man.

Scrubs don't do this in the playoffs in a key game.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201005110CLE.html

And Rodman numbers with the Bulls were equivalent to Wallace with the Cavs.

Rodman had a 13.6, 13.9 and 12.4 PER on the Bulls as well as a .143, .148 and .131 WS/48

Ben Wallace had a 12.4, 12.2 and .138 WS/48 on the Cavs.

Rodman was 35-37 while Wallace was 33, 34 on the Cavs

NJBASEBALL22
06-22-2012, 06:11 PM
larry and magic didn't win by themselves either... wilt and kareem and bill as well... only one that won by himself was hakeem...

And Bill Walton.

ThunderZubb
06-22-2012, 06:12 PM
You wonder fans hate Miami HEAT TEAM AND IT'S FANS BECAUSE STUPID THREADS LIKE THIS COMPARING LEBRON TO MICHAEL JORDAN OR SAYING LEBRON WILL BE THE BEST PLAYER ALL TIME IN THE NEXT 10 YEARS GIMMIE ME A BREAK SERIOUSLY. IT IS MOSTLY MIAMI HEAT FANS WHO ARE 16 Years old or younger. HAHA WHAT A JOKE HAVE YOU JOBBERS WATCHED MICHAEL JORDAN PLAY AGAINST THE BAD BOYS IN HIS PRIME. YOU KNOW HOW HE GOT HIT BADLY BY BAD BOYS PISTONS TRUST ME DEREK FISHER FOUL WAS NOT A FRAGANT AND I AM TELLING LEBRON WOULD NOT SURVIVE IN THE 90 ERA. CHARLIE OAKLEY, DENNIS RODMAN, BILL LIAMBEER, ANTHONY MASON AND ETC WOULD OF ATE LEBRON ALIVE PLUS HE HAS NO ****ING HEART.

LEBRON CANNOT HOLD MICHAEL JORDAN JOCKSTRAP

smith&wesson
06-22-2012, 06:13 PM
and bill walton.

dp.

smith&wesson
06-22-2012, 06:14 PM
And Bill Walton.

exactly. the point is that every one needs talent on their team to win.

smith&wesson
06-22-2012, 06:15 PM
Yes it is better than what Rodman would do as the man.

Scrubs don't do this in the playoffs in a key game.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201005110CLE.html

And Rodman numbers with the Bulls were equivalent to Wallace with the Cavs.

Rodman had a 13.6, 13.9 and 12.4 PER on the Bulls as well as a .143, .148 and .131 WS/48

Ben Wallace had a 12.4, 12.2 and .138 WS/48 on the Cavs.

Rodman was 35-37 while Wallace was 33, 34 on the Cavs

your only forgeting one simple thing here. rodman wasnt the 2nd best player on those teams. pippen was.

rodman was better. ben wallace wasnt gaurding the aposing teams best or wings. rodman could and did gaurd almost every position. infact mj had pippen and rodman two of the best defenders in the league at the time. ben wallace was a beast im not taking anything away from him. but his age caught up with him quicker wouldnt you agree ?

cmon man dont act like lebron had real help in clevland. we can do this all day. jordan would have left that crappy cavs team after 6 years too lol or no let me guess he would have turned larry hughes or mo williams in to hof players right :confused:

ThunderZubb
06-22-2012, 06:19 PM
You wonder fans hate Miami HEAT TEAM AND IT'S FANS BECAUSE STUPID THREADS LIKE THIS COMPARING LEBRON TO MICHAEL JORDAN OR SAYING LEBRON WILL BE THE BEST PLAYER ALL TIME IN THE NEXT 10 YEARS GIMMIE ME A BREAK SERIOUSLY. IT IS MOSTLY MIAMI HEAT FANS WHO ARE 16 Years old or younger. HAHA WHAT A JOKE HAVE YOU JOBBERS WATCHED MICHAEL JORDAN PLAY AGAINST THE BAD BOYS IN HIS PRIME. YOU KNOW HOW HE GOT HIT BADLY BY BAD BOYS PISTONS TRUST ME DEREK FISHER FOUL WAS NOT A FRAGANT AND I AM TELLING LEBRON WOULD NOT SURVIVE IN THE 90 ERA. CHARLIE OAKLEY, DENNIS RODMAN, BILL LIAMBEER, ANTHONY MASON AND ETC WOULD OF ATE LEBRON ALIVE PLUS HE HAS NO ****ING HEART.

LEBRON CANNOT HOLD MICHAEL JORDAN JOCKSTRAP

DaBear
06-22-2012, 06:19 PM
No, but they didn't run to a team loaded with all stars either. LeBron will always be known as the ring chaser who gave up any shot of passing up Kobe or Jordan.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
06-22-2012, 06:21 PM
Cool good for you.

Because Melo' and Amare' ain't going anywhere and NY is a disaster and will be for a long time, your just mad.

Lol, wtf did this have n e thing to do with the discussion?

JordansBulls
06-22-2012, 06:24 PM
And Bill Walton.

Um no.

1977 NBA

1. Maurice Lucas
2. Bill Walton

He had another guy who made the allstar team on his team.


1991 NBA

1. Michael Jordan

1998 NBA

1. Michael Jordan



2012 NBA

1. Chris Bosh
2. LeBron James
3. Dwyane Wade



1994 NBA

1. Hakeem Olajuwon


1995 NBA

1. Hakeem Olajuwon




What I find amusing is people who say Hakeem won by himself or Rick Barry but yet say Jordan did not when Jordan as well was the only allstar on the team a few years the Bulls won. They say Jordan had allstars but fail to acknowledge that Hakeem had a guy who made the allstar 2 years prior as well and then the next year had a guy who led the team in the playoffs in Win Shares and had more total win shares than Hakeem himself in 1995.
Then you get the ones that say Rick Barry won by himself, but yet had Jamal Wilkes on the team that won it all in 1975 who is a Hall of Famer.

JordansBulls
06-22-2012, 06:29 PM
your only forgeting one simple thing here. rodman wasnt the 2nd best player on those teams. pippen was.

rodman was better. ben wallace wasnt gaurding the aposing teams best or wings. rodman could and did gaurd almost every position. infact mj had pippen and rodman two of the best defenders in the league at the time. ben wallace was a beast im not taking anything away from him. but his age caught up with him quicker wouldnt you agree ?

cmon man dont act like lebron had real help in clevland. we can do this all day. jordan would have left that crappy cavs team after 6 years too lol or no let me guess he would have turned larry hughes or mo williams in to hof players right :confused:

He had the best record both years. Don't give me he doesn't have a number 2. Dirk is a guy who doesn't have a number 2, but how often does he get excuses made for him?

The fact of the matter is Lebron pretty much got Jamison for free as Big Z came back to the team and then he added Shaq (1x league mvp and 3 finals mvp's) without giving up anything really.
Jamison a career 20 and 8 player and was getting that this season on the Wizards. Shaq last year a 17 and 7 player and Mo was a 17 and 6 player before playing with Lebron.

No excuses, the Cavs were heavily favorite both years.

Maybe Lebron should stop being ball dominant and trying to get his points and numbers early on in the game against bad teams and get others going.

I said from the beginning, that Lebron needed to play like he did in game 1 of the Bulls vs Cavs series for the Cavs to succeed. Once he started dominating the ball, the Cavs were done.



Lebron doesn't have a shot. He has already lost in the finals,
doesn't get high tv ratings(like Jordan), has lost with the best record in the league/hca, has a poor attitude. Bron could win 4 rings and 4 MVP's and he still wouldn't crack the top 5.
Plus you have to consider this is now a so-so NBA era that lacks any real
dominant big men besides Dwight Howard.


Lebron lost with HCA. MJ never lost with HCA.

IMO there are only a few times where the STAR PLAYER get the critism.

1.) Losing a Series with HCA.
2.) Playing bad and someone else on your team plays better
3.) Losing in the finals.


Every other superstar player that was on a good team ended up losing with HCA as
well and to teams much inferior at that. That's the whole point of it. If you have HCA you should win the series.



http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=26749



Josh (Los Angeles, CA): The Cavs didn?t match up well with Orlando, now all of a sudden Big Z (PER 18.03), Mo (17.25) and Delonte (14.16) aren't a good supporting cast and Rashard (16.83), Hedo (14.82), and Pietrus (11.69) are studs?


http://a.espncdn.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: It's the style of play. The way the Magic spread the floor was a challenge for guys like Ben Wallace and Z to guard. When Varejao got in foul trouble, they struggled to keep up.





Source: ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=OffseasonPredictions09-EastChamps)





Cleveland Cavaliers (32 votes)

This thing is Cleveland's to lose, says our panel -- or 60.4 percent of our panel, anyway.

It's no surprise to see so many votes for a team that has the reigning MVP and won 66 games last season. On the other hand, the Cavs had the same points in their favor in May, and were the heavy favorites to win the East at that time, too. But Orlando took care of Cleveland thanks to some amazing shooting and the dominance of Dwight Howard, and the Cavs were left licking their wounds.



For those saying the Cavs aren't suppose to win, then answer this?

Source: ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-090512)

[quote]
1. Cleveland (+9.12)
Welcome to the Cleveland Invitational, ladies and gentlemen. Yes, the Pistons had given up and the Hawks had injuries, but the fact is the Cavs have won eight straight playoff games by double figures. In this case it's a continuation of the Cavs' strong finish to the season, and it doesn't appear either Boston or Orlando has the goods to make them sweat much in a conference finals.

Cleveland also has home-court advantage going for it in the final two rounds, so at this point the Cavs have to be considered a heavy favorite to win the championship. They're playing the best basketball, have the best draw, have home-court and have the best player. They still have to play the games, of course, but the skids have already been greased. While the likes of Denver or L.A. could give them a tough fight in the Finals, at this point it appears that the only team that can beat Cleveland is Cleveland.


Looks like the Cavs were heavy favorites.


So they played a team that gave up in the Pistons and one who was injured in Atlanta and now it is being said that neither Boston or Orlando will make them sweat. So who the hell is supposed to win it all if it isn't Cleveland?


Dirk gets critisizm for losing with a team that won over 65+ games and didn't win the title does he not?


http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/th_CavsvsMagicSeries.jpg

http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/th_CavsvsMagic2009Playoffs.jpg
http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/CavsvsMagic2009Playoffs.jpg

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/matchup/_/teams/magic-cavaliers



Source: Yahoosports (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/The-10-best-teams-of-the-decade-never-to-win-a-c;_ylt=Ai8j0I4kfnCFSrGgLh3xx7q8vLYF?urn=nba,184569 )



1. Cleveland Cavaliers, 2008-09

I sort of like this also-ran, because it speaks to how we've grown as a sport-regarding culture over the years. These Cleveland Cavaliers ran up 66-wins, an almost-Bulls-like 8.9-point differential (way better than any team listed above), and had the greatest player in the game (LeBron James(notes)) at their disposal. And yet, when the team lost to the Orlando Magic in the Eastern Conference finals last spring, people seemed ready to smartly admit that the Cavs, for all their horses, just didn't have the horses to run with the Magic.

Nobody was labeled a choker, nobody was fired, and though the team traded for one big (hopeful) problem-solver in the offseason in Shaquille O'Neal, nobody seemed to overreact and make deals for the sake of making deals. Knowing that the team will have the best player in the game, at only age 24, around for at least the next season helps too; but you have to love the lack of hand-wringing. Still, the meek ending doesn't hide the fact that this was an otherwise dominant team that won 74 of its first 90 games before falling to the Magic in six.



In fact only 2 teams that have won 65+ games have not won the title and it was the 2007 Mavs and 1973 Celtics and now the 2009 Cavs.

These other teams all won the title.
2009 Lakers
2008 Celtics
2000 Lakers
1997 Bulls
1996 Bulls
1992 Bulls
1987 Lakers
1986 Celtics
1983 Sixers
1972 Lakers
1971 Bucks
1967 Sixers


Sure MJ has. He has 6 playoff series over 40+ ppg. He won the title in 1991 without having another allstar on the team.



While Lebron had another allstar on the team. This with Orlando missing it's star PG as well.



Lebron just lost with HCA and the superior supporting cast. He averaged 15.67 FTA a game in that series where he shot 94 FT in 6 games.

Bulls not only in 1991 but 1998 was the finest example won the title and this with Pippen missing over half the season on a bad foot and Bulls win 62 games. Pippen also has a bad back as well in the finals.


You say the Cavs didn't show up, well guess what, Lebron gets all the credit last year for taking the Celtics 7 games when he shot 35% from the field.

This year the Cavs underachieved in losing to Orlando who wasn't getting any publicity and who many thought would go down in round 1.


Also MJ never lost with HCA something Lebron just did on a 66 win team.


So Lebron had another allstar on the team, another 3 former allstars, a 4x DPOY player, a team top 4 in defensive and offensive efficiency, the team with the highest SRS rating all year long as well as the team who had the highest point differential all year long and then won it's first two series by more than 10+ points per game, but yet they weren't the favorite to beat Orlando who was missing it's star PG and whose SG was playing injured?

Hilarious!!!


Not even One analyst said the Magic would win.

In fact it was so bad that in games 3 and 4 in Orlando that the Cavs were a 2 point favorite on the road.

The Cavs had the best record all year, they had the highest point differential in winning, they had the highest SRS rating.

In the playoffs they won the first 2 rounds by 10+ points in every game and even in the playoffs the Cavs had a 8.5 pts per game differential which was the highest in the postseason that year.

The Cavs were cruising while the Magic were getting outplayed and down in the series to the Sixers initially and the Celtics without KG and then you expect me to believe that Orlando was the better team all along? I just don't buy that all and really it is just an excuse because the Cavs lost. Also lets not forget the Cavs were up each game at home of the 3 games by more than 20+ points each time.


So when I said it was on Lebron I meant in the sense that not that he played bad but that he was the leader of the team and Your leader shouldn't allow you to blow 20+ point leads in the playoffs at home especially when you go 39-2 at home all year. That is more or less why I said it was on Lebron.


Let's make something clear here, I never said Lebron played bad statistically in the series,

however him defending the worst offensive player on the court on Orlando made for a bad strategy.

Because who was Lebron guarding the series? Was he not guarding Rafer Alston? Why is he guarding someone that doesn't play his position when the guy who plays his position is an offensive threat? Because of that that allowed Hedo to shoot over his man. Lebron has to take fault for that.

He could have easily taken Hedo out of the game especially when the Cavs were up 20+ points in each of it's 3 home games.


Source: NBA.com (http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_081205.html)


Do you think in the end the one true comparison that will distinguish (Jordan and LeBron) is of course championships and awards records, etc., but the way Michael made people around him become better of course, but more specifically, Scottie Pippen.
Scottie did pull off some great moves that took extrordinary talent, but his ability to learn might have been the extraordinary part. Can LeBron create a Scottie Pippen type player or was Scottie an extension of MJ? All I know is these two together created some of the best and most extensive set of highlight reels man has ever known, some will say LeBron will need his Phil Jackson, and his Scottie Pippen.




Sam: It's starting to look like LeBron is about there,
and he may not need to turn someone into a Hall of Famer, as Jordan did for Pippen.
The league is not as strong or deep now, and I had a GM tell me this week he not only believes the Cavs will win the East, he thinks they'll win it all. And if that does
happen (remember, hardly anyone was picking the Bulls in 1991), it may mess up a lot of free agency plans as the likelihood is LeBron then stays in Cleveland.


And of course I am not comparing Lebron to MJ. Lebron didn't show up in the finals and had one of the worst finals ever and he also had 11 allstars on the team USA and ended up with 2 bronze medals as well.

Lebron had plenty of help on his team this year. He had another allstar in Mo Williams. He had a top 4 defensive rating and offensive rated team. The team had the highest SRS rating which means the strength by which you beat your opponents by. They had the highest point differential in the season and in the playoffs.

That team was the best team in the league that got upset by an inferior opponent.

So tell me who was the favorite to win the series between Orlando and Cleveland?



Let's not forget that Lebron plays well against Bad teams. He had over a 44.5 PER thru the first two rounds mainly because the other teams starters were just terrible. Case in point, Tayshaun Prince had a negative win shares amount and had a negative PER. PER is set at 15 for the average starter and for someone who starts to get a negative PER goes to show how bad they were. Thus Lebron was able to do what he does best and that is stat pad his numbers. That is why it hurt them later on.

And he certainly padded his stats against Detroit and Atlanta.


Good stats don't mean jack when you lose series with HCA and you are the heavy favorite to win the series. Just like MJ would have gotten the blame in 1988 had we lost to Cleveland because we had the HCA and the game went to the deciding game and this despite him averaging over vs. Cleveland, 1988: 45 pts/5 reb/5 ast/53% FG
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll give you an example. The Bulls were 0-6 against the Cavs in 1989. Cavs were title contenders and we were barely making the playoffs. MJ proceeds to average over 40 ppg in that series and we win the series in 5 on the road on a game winner by MJ. Even the year before where we had HCA, MJ averaged over 45 ppg in that series and we went the distance and won game 5 at home.

Now you look at MJ's history and you see that whenever he had a team that won more games than the other or even that won the same number of games, he ALWAYS won the series. Essentially speaking MJ never lost a series with HCA.

Oh and you say Mo didn't show up, he still averaged 18 ppg. Hell let's look at what other guys did on some titles the Bulls won. MJ's next best player averages 15 ppg on 34% fg in the finals in 1996 and we win. He averages 16 ppg on 41% in the 1998 finals.
How is that any worse than what Mo did?

Oh and the Cavs were up by 20+ in every home game, how the hell can you blame the cast for that? If you are getting 20+ point leads at home your damn cast gotta be good especially if you have had that lead in each home game in the series.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Cavs were not bad period.

1) They nearly beat the Sixers the last game of the season with the Sixers playing all of there best players the entire game and the Cavs were doing this with 3 starters out and 2 others playing less than 20 minutes.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why things would have been different

1) Cavs had a 20 point lead in each of it's home games. There is no way in hell you get up by 20+ points in each home game in the conference finals without being a good team.

2) There is no reason why Lebron should have defended Rafer for most of the games at home. Rafer does not play well on the road period and most of the time doesn't play well. Another reason why this wasn't good it left Mo Williams and Delonte West to defend Lee and Hedo guys who were simply bigger than they were and thus they could shoot right over Mo Williams and Delonte West.

3) Lebron passed off on the last possession with the team down 1 point. When you are the star and your team is down and you are not up in the series, you take the shot.

4) Lebron held the ball too long on possessions. I know he did nearly everything, but it would have been quite different with a set offense then just passing the rock and expecting guys to hit shots with 4 seconds left on the shot clock when they hadn't touched the ball the entire possession.

5) Lebron simply needed to score 50+ in that game 1. He was hot, he needed to make sure the Cavs got that game.




http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290520005 - Mentions 15 at the half, but it was 20 at one point.

http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290522005 - Down by 23 in the second quarter the Magic were within 12 at halftime.


http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290528005 - The Magic overcame a 22-point deficit but missed their first opportunity to close out the Cavaliers


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
One other thing about Playoff Win Shares and PER. Dirk had a higher PER and Win Shares in 2006 in the postseason than Wade, but would you say he was better when Wade won without HCA and beat Dirk in the finals?

Only thing that really matters is the finals. Playoffs come 2nd.


Hell Jerry West averaged 37.9 ppg in the finals in 1969 and he and Wilt get the blame for losing to the Celtics because the were heavy favorites in that series.

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1969.htm#


------------------------------------------

Too bad Lebron lost with HCA and couldn't even win a gold medal with this lineup

http://www.fiba.com/pages/eng/fe/06_wcm/scheResu/p/eventid/3507/gamename/A/groupname/75/langlc/en/roundid/5152/fe_scheStat_boxScor.html




Greece 101, USA 95

4 J. Johnson - Star
5 K. Hinrich
6 L. James - Superstar
7 A. Jamison - Star
8 S. Battier
9 D. Wade - Superstar
10 C. Paul - Superstar
11 C. Bosh - Star
12 D. Howard - Superstar
13 B. Miller
14 E. Brand
15 C. Anthony - Superstar




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_FIBA_World_Championship

If he couldn't win with this team:

Carmelo Anthony
Carlos Boozer
Tim Duncan
Allen Iverson
LeBron James
Richard Jefferson
Stephon Marbury
Shawn Marion
Lamar Odom
Emeka Okafor
Amare Stoudemire
Dwyane Wade

What makes you think he could win with a star?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's say Lebron had Iverson instead of Mo Williams, how do they do? Do they necessarily win with a guy that is a top 35 player all time instead?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The problem was that Cleveland didn't take Orlando seriously. It took Orlando 7 games to beat a KG less Boston team and Cleveland had won it's first 8 games by 10+ points each. Thus they overlooked Orlando and figured it was going to be easy especially with Jameer not playing as well.

Lebron very well may have had to average over 40 ppg in that series to win it, but he didn't. It is just like in 1969 Jerry West, Wilt and Baylor all get the blame for losing to the Celtics because they were the favorite and had the HCA despite West averaging nearly 39 ppg in that series.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Orlando made the finals with the worst backcourt of all time. How the hell do you make the finals with Rafer Alston and Courtney Lee (a rookie) as your starting backcourt?

People talk about Lebron's cast, but then fail to mention the cast Dwight had in 2009. Rafer and Lee was his starting backcourt. When they went to New Jersey that team won 12 games. Rashard Lewis was his PF and now on the Wizards with a franchise player in Wall that team has won like 13 games now. And then Hedo was on the Raptors and Suns and had absolutely no impact.
When you put it together Dwight's lineup was Rafer, Lee, Hedo, Lewis



Those guys didn't play well because they hardly ever had the ball. If you go back and watch the series vs Orlando you will hear Doug Collins mentioning how Lebron has the ball in his hands 16-18 seconds every possession. Your teammmates aren't going to perform well when that happens. And Dwight's cast was equally as bad.

Realistically who were the contenders in 2009?

Lakers obviously but outside of them, not reallly anyone else as Manu was out for San Antonio, tmac/Yao for the Rockets, KG for the Celtics and Nelson for the Magic.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


This year Cleveland was the favorite from the get go and even more so mid way thru the year. Cleveland won 66 games and Orlando won 59 games. Cleveland had the HCA and was the heavy favorites to win the east with Garnett out. Now had the Celtics been healthy that is one thing, but Orlando hadn't proved anything in any other postseason. So dont tell me they were supposed to win this series.

Also Orlando was doing this without their star pg in Nelson who was the 2nd best player on the team. Cleveland lost 2 games at home this year and really only 1 as the last game of the year none of the starters played. And think of it, they still took the 6th seed to OT with not one starter playing.


It's amazing Orlando won with that backcourt and won missing it's 2nd best player. I thought Orlando would lose in 4 or 5 with how good Cleveland was doing and how much Orlando struggled with Philly and a KG less Celtics. I thought Orlando only had a chance to take it 7 with a healthy Jameer.


I don't what hear about someone not having a good supporting cast when they had the best record in the league and broke a record in the playoffs winning it's first 8 games by 10+ points each game.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------






Last year's collapse in the Eastern Conference finals only made LeBron hungrier and more willing to expand his game. Now, opponents can expect to see him in the post more. Scary. And look for a resurgence from a truly motivated Shaq.




The Cavs were the best team in the East before collapsing against the Magic, and they've gotten even stronger in the offseason. Shaq and Anthony Parker should help shore up their bench. Still, they lack the athletic bigs to match up with the Magic in a seven-game series.



Now had the Cavs lost to the Celtics with KG around or the Lakers those would be legit losses but losing to a team that was out in the previous season in round 1 and when you had HCA and the hands down favorite while they were missing there PG in Nelson as well doesn't bode well here.

nastynice
06-22-2012, 06:35 PM
calling him a coward is ridiculous. but its hard to ever put him in the same category as the greats. If mj had to pair up with ewing to start winning, people wouldn't think of him the same. its a weird situation, lebron is pure beast, there's no question, but its hard to compare him to the legends. I got no beef with him leaving cleveland, as they had no clue how to build a team, but pairing up with two top players kinda takes him out of the "legendary" running for me. Funny thing is, he probably didn't even need to. wade played like crap, lebron killed it

smith&wesson
06-22-2012, 06:47 PM
He had the best record both years. Don't give me he doesn't have a number 2. Dirk is a guy who doesn't have a number 2, but how often does he get excuses made for him?

The fact of the matter is Lebron pretty much got Jamison for free as Big Z came back to the team and then he added Shaq (1x league mvp and 3 finals mvp's) without giving up anything really.
Jamison a career 20 and 8 player and was getting that this season on the Wizards. Shaq last year a 17 and 7 player and Mo was a 17 and 6 player before playing with Lebron.

No excuses, the Cavs were heavily favorite both years.

Maybe Lebron should stop being ball dominant and trying to get his points and numbers early on in the game against bad teams and get others going.

I said from the beginning, that Lebron needed to play like he did in game 1 of the Bulls vs Cavs series for the Cavs to succeed. Once he started dominating the ball, the Cavs were done.



Lebron doesn't have a shot. He has already lost in the finals,
doesn't get high tv ratings(like Jordan), has lost with the best record in the league/hca, has a poor attitude. Bron could win 4 rings and 4 MVP's and he still wouldn't crack the top 5.
Plus you have to consider this is now a so-so NBA era that lacks any real
dominant big men besides Dwight Howard.


Lebron lost with HCA. MJ never lost with HCA.

IMO there are only a few times where the STAR PLAYER get the critism.

1.) Losing a Series with HCA.
2.) Playing bad and someone else on your team plays better
3.) Losing in the finals.


Every other superstar player that was on a good team ended up losing with HCA as
well and to teams much inferior at that. That's the whole point of it. If you have HCA you should win the series.



http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=26749





Source: ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=OffseasonPredictions09-EastChamps)



[QUOTE]
Cleveland Cavaliers (32 votes)

This thing is Cleveland's to lose, says our panel -- or 60.4 percent of our panel, anyway.

It's no surprise to see so many votes for a team that has the reigning MVP and won 66 games last season. On the other hand, the Cavs had the same points in their favor in May, and were the heavy favorites to win the East at that time, too. But Orlando took care of Cleveland thanks to some amazing shooting and the dominance of Dwight Howard, and the Cavs were left licking their wounds.



For those saying the Cavs aren't suppose to win, then answer this?

Source: ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-090512)



Looks like the Cavs were heavy favorites.


So they played a team that gave up in the Pistons and one who was injured in Atlanta and now it is being said that neither Boston or Orlando will make them sweat. So who the hell is supposed to win it all if it isn't Cleveland?


Dirk gets critisizm for losing with a team that won over 65+ games and didn't win the title does he not?


http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/th_CavsvsMagicSeries.jpg

http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/th_CavsvsMagic2009Playoffs.jpg
http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/CavsvsMagic2009Playoffs.jpg

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/matchup/_/teams/magic-cavaliers



Source: Yahoosports (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/The-10-best-teams-of-the-decade-never-to-win-a-c;_ylt=Ai8j0I4kfnCFSrGgLh3xx7q8vLYF?urn=nba,184569 )




In fact only 2 teams that have won 65+ games have not won the title and it was the 2007 Mavs and 1973 Celtics and now the 2009 Cavs.

These other teams all won the title.
2009 Lakers
2008 Celtics
2000 Lakers
1997 Bulls
1996 Bulls
1992 Bulls
1987 Lakers
1986 Celtics
1983 Sixers
1972 Lakers
1971 Bucks
1967 Sixers


Sure MJ has. He has 6 playoff series over 40+ ppg. He won the title in 1991 without having another allstar on the team.



While Lebron had another allstar on the team. This with Orlando missing it's star PG as well.



Lebron just lost with HCA and the superior supporting cast. He averaged 15.67 FTA a game in that series where he shot 94 FT in 6 games.

Bulls not only in 1991 but 1998 was the finest example won the title and this with Pippen missing over half the season on a bad foot and Bulls win 62 games. Pippen also has a bad back as well in the finals.


You say the Cavs didn't show up, well guess what, Lebron gets all the credit last year for taking the Celtics 7 games when he shot 35% from the field.

This year the Cavs underachieved in losing to Orlando who wasn't getting any publicity and who many thought would go down in round 1.


Also MJ never lost with HCA something Lebron just did on a 66 win team.


So Lebron had another allstar on the team, another 3 former allstars, a 4x DPOY player, a team top 4 in defensive and offensive efficiency, the team with the highest SRS rating all year long as well as the team who had the highest point differential all year long and then won it's first two series by more than 10+ points per game, but yet they weren't the favorite to beat Orlando who was missing it's star PG and whose SG was playing injured?

Hilarious!!!


Not even One analyst said the Magic would win.

In fact it was so bad that in games 3 and 4 in Orlando that the Cavs were a 2 point favorite on the road.

The Cavs had the best record all year, they had the highest point differential in winning, they had the highest SRS rating.

In the playoffs they won the first 2 rounds by 10+ points in every game and even in the playoffs the Cavs had a 8.5 pts per game differential which was the highest in the postseason that year.

The Cavs were cruising while the Magic were getting outplayed and down in the series to the Sixers initially and the Celtics without KG and then you expect me to believe that Orlando was the better team all along? I just don't buy that all and really it is just an excuse because the Cavs lost. Also lets not forget the Cavs were up each game at home of the 3 games by more than 20+ points each time.


So when I said it was on Lebron I meant in the sense that not that he played bad but that he was the leader of the team and Your leader shouldn't allow you to blow 20+ point leads in the playoffs at home especially when you go 39-2 at home all year. That is more or less why I said it was on Lebron.


Let's make something clear here, I never said Lebron played bad statistically in the series,

however him defending the worst offensive player on the court on Orlando made for a bad strategy.

Because who was Lebron guarding the series? Was he not guarding Rafer Alston? Why is he guarding someone that doesn't play his position when the guy who plays his position is an offensive threat? Because of that that allowed Hedo to shoot over his man. Lebron has to take fault for that.

He could have easily taken Hedo out of the game especially when the Cavs were up 20+ points in each of it's 3 home games.


Source: NBA.com (http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_081205.html)







And of course I am not comparing Lebron to MJ. Lebron didn't show up in the finals and had one of the worst finals ever and he also had 11 allstars on the team USA and ended up with 2 bronze medals as well.

Lebron had plenty of help on his team this year. He had another allstar in Mo Williams. He had a top 4 defensive rating and offensive rated team. The team had the highest SRS rating which means the strength by which you beat your opponents by. They had the highest point differential in the season and in the playoffs.

That team was the best team in the league that got upset by an inferior opponent.

So tell me who was the favorite to win the series between Orlando and Cleveland?



Let's not forget that Lebron plays well against Bad teams. He had over a 44.5 PER thru the first two rounds mainly because the other teams starters were just terrible. Case in point, Tayshaun Prince had a negative win shares amount and had a negative PER. PER is set at 15 for the average starter and for someone who starts to get a negative PER goes to show how bad they were. Thus Lebron was able to do what he does best and that is stat pad his numbers. That is why it hurt them later on.

And he certainly padded his stats against Detroit and Atlanta.


Good stats don't mean jack when you lose series with HCA and you are the heavy favorite to win the series. Just like MJ would have gotten the blame in 1988 had we lost to Cleveland because we had the HCA and the game went to the deciding game and this despite him averaging over vs. Cleveland, 1988: 45 pts/5 reb/5 ast/53% FG
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I'll give you an example. The Bulls were 0-6 against the Cavs in 1989. Cavs were title contenders and we were barely making the playoffs. MJ proceeds to average over 40 ppg in that series and we win the series in 5 on the road on a game winner by MJ. Even the year before where we had HCA, MJ averaged over 45 ppg in that series and we went the distance and won game 5 at home.

Now you look at MJ's history and you see that whenever he had a team that won more games than the other or even that won the same number of games, he ALWAYS won the series. Essentially speaking MJ never lost a series with HCA.

Oh and you say Mo didn't show up, he still averaged 18 ppg. Hell let's look at what other guys did on some titles the Bulls won. MJ's next best player averages 15 ppg on 34% fg in the finals in 1996 and we win. He averages 16 ppg on 41% in the 1998 finals.
How is that any worse than what Mo did?

Oh and the Cavs were up by 20+ in every home game, how the hell can you blame the cast for that? If you are getting 20+ point leads at home your damn cast gotta be good especially if you have had that lead in each home game in the series.
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The Cavs were not bad period.

1) They nearly beat the Sixers the last game of the season with the Sixers playing all of there best players the entire game and the Cavs were doing this with 3 starters out and 2 others playing less than 20 minutes.

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Why things would have been different

1) Cavs had a 20 point lead in each of it's home games. There is no way in hell you get up by 20+ points in each home game in the conference finals without being a good team.

2) There is no reason why Lebron should have defended Rafer for most of the games at home. Rafer does not play well on the road period and most of the time doesn't play well. Another reason why this wasn't good it left Mo Williams and Delonte West to defend Lee and Hedo guys who were simply bigger than they were and thus they could shoot right over Mo Williams and Delonte West.

3) Lebron passed off on the last possession with the team down 1 point. When you are the star and your team is down and you are not up in the series, you take the shot.

4) Lebron held the ball too long on possessions. I know he did nearly everything, but it would have been quite different with a set offense then just passing the rock and expecting guys to hit shots with 4 seconds left on the shot clock when they hadn't touched the ball the entire possession.

5) Lebron simply needed to score 50+ in that game 1. He was hot, he needed to make sure the Cavs got that game.




http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290520005 - Mentions 15 at the half, but it was 20 at one point.

http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290522005 - Down by 23 in the second quarter the Magic were within 12 at halftime.


http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290528005 - The Magic overcame a 22-point deficit but missed their first opportunity to close out the Cavaliers


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One other thing about Playoff Win Shares and PER. Dirk had a higher PER and Win Shares in 2006 in the postseason than Wade, but would you say he was better when Wade won without HCA and beat Dirk in the finals?

Only thing that really matters is the finals. Playoffs come 2nd.


Hell Jerry West averaged 37.9 ppg in the finals in 1969 and he and Wilt get the blame for losing to the Celtics because the were heavy favorites in that series.

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1969.htm#


------------------------------------------

Too bad Lebron lost with HCA and couldn't even win a gold medal with this lineup

http://www.fiba.com/pages/eng/fe/06_wcm/scheResu/p/eventid/3507/gamename/A/groupname/75/langlc/en/roundid/5152/fe_scheStat_boxScor.html




Greece 101, USA 95

4 J. Johnson - Star
5 K. Hinrich
6 L. James - Superstar
7 A. Jamison - Star
8 S. Battier
9 D. Wade - Superstar
10 C. Paul - Superstar
11 C. Bosh - Star
12 D. Howard - Superstar
13 B. Miller
14 E. Brand
15 C. Anthony - Superstar




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_FIBA_World_Championship

If he couldn't win with this team:

Carmelo Anthony
Carlos Boozer
Tim Duncan
Allen Iverson
LeBron James
Richard Jefferson
Stephon Marbury
Shawn Marion
Lamar Odom
Emeka Okafor
Amare Stoudemire
Dwyane Wade

What makes you think he could win with a star?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's say Lebron had Iverson instead of Mo Williams, how do they do? Do they necessarily win with a guy that is a top 35 player all time instead?

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The problem was that Cleveland didn't take Orlando seriously. It took Orlando 7 games to beat a KG less Boston team and Cleveland had won it's first 8 games by 10+ points each. Thus they overlooked Orlando and figured it was going to be easy especially with Jameer not playing as well.

Lebron very well may have had to average over 40 ppg in that series to win it, but he didn't. It is just like in 1969 Jerry West, Wilt and Baylor all get the blame for losing to the Celtics because they were the favorite and had the HCA despite West averaging nearly 39 ppg in that series.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Orlando made the finals with the worst backcourt of all time. How the hell do you make the finals with Rafer Alston and Courtney Lee (a rookie) as your starting backcourt?

People talk about Lebron's cast, but then fail to mention the cast Dwight had in 2009. Rafer and Lee was his starting backcourt. When they went to New Jersey that team won 12 games. Rashard Lewis was his PF and now on the Wizards with a franchise player in Wall that team has won like 13 games now. And then Hedo was on the Raptors and Suns and had absolutely no impact.
When you put it together Dwight's lineup was Rafer, Lee, Hedo, Lewis



Those guys didn't play well because they hardly ever had the ball. If you go back and watch the series vs Orlando you will hear Doug Collins mentioning how Lebron has the ball in his hands 16-18 seconds every possession. Your teammmates aren't going to perform well when that happens. And Dwight's cast was equally as bad.

Realistically who were the contenders in 2009?

Lakers obviously but outside of them, not reallly anyone else as Manu was out for San Antonio, tmac/Yao for the Rockets, KG for the Celtics and Nelson for the Magic.
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This year Cleveland was the favorite from the get go and even more so mid way thru the year. Cleveland won 66 games and Orlando won 59 games. Cleveland had the HCA and was the heavy favorites to win the east with Garnett out. Now had the Celtics been healthy that is one thing, but Orlando hadn't proved anything in any other postseason. So dont tell me they were supposed to win this series.

Also Orlando was doing this without their star pg in Nelson who was the 2nd best player on the team. Cleveland lost 2 games at home this year and really only 1 as the last game of the year none of the starters played. And think of it, they still took the 6th seed to OT with not one starter playing.


It's amazing Orlando won with that backcourt and won missing it's 2nd best player. I thought Orlando would lose in 4 or 5 with how good Cleveland was doing and how much Orlando struggled with Philly and a KG less Celtics. I thought Orlando only had a chance to take it 7 with a healthy Jameer.


I don't what hear about someone not having a good supporting cast when they had the best record in the league and broke a record in the playoffs winning it's first 8 games by 10+ points each game.
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Now had the Cavs lost to the Celtics with KG around or the Lakers those would be legit losses but losing to a team that was out in the previous season in round 1 and when you had HCA and the hands down favorite while they were missing there PG in Nelson as well doesn't bode well here.

Jesus h christ jb. lol

again antwan and shaq and ben wallace were all well passed their prime. honestly how can you not beleive this ?

i would say dirk nowitsky is one of the only star players to win a ship with out a great number 2 along side him. it still confuses me as to why dallas didnt bring tyson chandler back and try to defend their ship. that team didnt have loads of talent. but it was a good team missing an interior presence. i cant really think of another team that won with out the best player having a really good number 2 option. that doesnt mean that the bulls didnt have a clear number two option in pippen.

lebron ball dominant ? you mean the guy who excells in sharing and passing the ball ? one of the best pointforwards in the game ? couldnt the same thing be said about jordan ? are you telling me that jordan wasnt ball dominant ?

ill have to finish reading your post to reply to the rest of it my man.

mike_noodles
06-22-2012, 06:54 PM
larry and magic didn't win by themselves either... wilt and kareem and bill as well... only one that won by himself was hakeem...

Hardly, I think you better go back and look at those rosters.

I think the point is that you must have 2 stars to win a championship in this league unless you catch lightning in a bottle like the 2004 Pistons.

Chronz
06-22-2012, 06:54 PM
Well, Shaq did join up with Kobe :shrug:

Makes me wonder, I would the same thing would be true if either MJ or Kobe were drafted by a team like Cleveland. A team in an undesirable market with not great coach and no great players?

I wonder if LeBron would have left LA with Shaq and Phil there. I wonder if he would have left Chicago with Pippen and Phil there?

I'm going to go ahead and say that you can't treat every scenario the same. Cleveland in the mid-late 2000s was FAR different than Chicago in the early 90s and LA in the late 90s. Cleveland wasn't and isn't 1/10th as desirable as a place to play.
No need to wonder, MJ threatened to quit if management dared to trade his teammates/coach, and Kobe already forced a trade when his best players left and he was forced to wait a mere 3 seasons of carrying his team. Its the smart thing to do if you care about your legacy

amos1er
06-22-2012, 07:05 PM
Um no.

1977 NBA

1. Maurice Lucas
2. Bill Walton

He had another guy who made the allstar team on his team.


1991 NBA

1. Michael Jordan

1998 NBA

1. Michael Jordan



2012 NBA

1. Chris Bosh
2. LeBron James
3. Dwyane Wade



1994 NBA

1. Hakeem Olajuwon


1995 NBA

1. Hakeem Olajuwon




What I find amusing is people who say Hakeem won by himself or Rick Barry but yet say Jordan did not when Jordan as well was the only allstar on the team a few years the Bulls won. They say Jordan had allstars but fail to acknowledge that Hakeem had a guy who made the allstar 2 years prior as well and then the next year had a guy who led the team in the playoffs in Win Shares and had more total win shares than Hakeem himself in 1995.
Then you get the ones that say Rick Barry won by himself, but yet had Jamal Wilkes on the team that won it all in 1975 who is a Hall of Famer.


Funny thing...while Gasol was on the all-star team the same years he won it all with Bryant, he did have less all-star appearances than Pippen and when all is said and done its debatable whether or not he will make the hall of fame, let alone the top 50 players of all-time like Pippen did. Not really an accurate way to judge or anything, just sayin...

JordansBulls
06-22-2012, 07:08 PM
Funny thing...while Gasol was on the all-star team the same years he won it all with Bryant, he did have less all-star appearances than Pippen and when all is said and done its debatable whether or not he will make the hall of fame, let alone the top 50 players of all-time like Pippen did. Not really an accurate way to judge or anything, just sayin...

Yeah but he also led the team in Win Shares the past 4 years as well and led the entire playoffs in 2010 in it as well. I'm sure Gasol is a hall of famer especially after getting gold in FIBA back in 2006.

LAKERS4LIFE!!
06-22-2012, 07:45 PM
Lebron is a BEAST but of course his legacy will always be hurt because of his decision. Jordan stayed on his team, kept losing to the bad boys, but eventually got over the hump. I know Pippen almost took the Bulls back to the Finals the first year Jordan left but even with more seasons, I don't know if he'll be able to lead the Bulls to the championship, none of us will never know. Kobe was drafted, and Shaq came along and they won together but then Kobe had those miserable years around 04-07. In, 08 Kobe did get Pau Gasol but we all know Pau could not win a championship as the 1st option. Sadly he couldn't even win one playoff game. Lebron on the other hand joined a #1 option who had won his own championship already and a top 3 player in the league at the time in Dwayne Wade.

In my opinion, if Lebron went back to Cleveland for some crazy reason and then started winning some championships over there then Lebron could start making a case for Top 5 player of all time. Nonetheless, Lebron will probably end up at least a Top 10 player of all time.

0nekhmer
06-22-2012, 08:16 PM
Lebron will go down better than Kobe IMO. Lebron turned his franchise around with scrubs, Kobe put up high PPG but never really won as a team until he got established HOF's on his team (Shaq,Pau). MJ struggled like Lebron, but actually won games with his weaker supporting cast, until he got Scottie. So the Jordan debate should be MJ Vs LBJ IMO

C-Style
06-22-2012, 08:30 PM
Yes they did cause they would have won zero rings if they stayed with their current teams

C-Style
06-22-2012, 08:30 PM
Lebron will go down better than Kobe IMO. Lebron turned on his franchise

fixed

KB-Pau-DH2012
06-22-2012, 08:34 PM
Lebron will go down better than Kobe IMO. Lebron turned his franchise around with scrubs, Kobe put up high PPG but never really won as a team until he got established HOF's on his team (Shaq,Pau). MJ struggled like Lebron, but actually won games with his weaker supporting cast, until he got Scottie. So the Jordan debate should be MJ Vs LBJ IMO

Pau was not an established hall of famer when he got to Lakerland.

And when Shaq got to LA in '96, he had played just 4 yrs in Orlando and 1 finals appearance and 1 scoring title. Not really hall of fame worthy if you ask me.

I think you're just trolling, and that too in a very mediocre fashion.

Good luck with life buddy.

JesusWears24
06-22-2012, 08:52 PM
Nikeman is the biggest idiot ever

The goods
06-22-2012, 09:01 PM
Anyone who says Kobe rode shaqs coat tails in that 3peat didn't watch the Lakers at all ask the spurs who killed them in those series I live in Austin and everyone here hates Kobe because he was the one smashing their hearts,ask the nets who started that sweep I hate when people say shaq got those rings by himself if their was ever a co-captained team it was that won they won those together they couldn't have done that without each other.....well maybe Kobe will. Lol

The goods
06-22-2012, 09:04 PM
Now that LeBron has won I guess people are going to bring this up a lot but won thing those guys didn't do was quit on their team and leave to join someone else's period.

Chronz
06-22-2012, 09:07 PM
Pau was not an established hall of famer when he got to Lakerland.
Didnt he already win gold by then?



And when Shaq got to LA in '96, he had played just 4 yrs in Orlando and 1 finals appearance and 1 scoring title. Not really hall of fame worthy if you ask me.
Wasnt Shaq already named to the 50 greatest players in NBA history by then?



I think you're just trolling, and that too in a very mediocre fashion.

Good luck with life buddy.

Hes trolling just fine, Ive seen worse from you

Chronz
06-22-2012, 09:07 PM
Now that LeBron has won I guess people are going to bring this up a lot but won thing those guys didn't do was quit on their team and leave to join someone else's period.

What are you basing this on?

KB-Pau-DH2012
06-22-2012, 09:19 PM
Didnt he already win gold by then?


Wasnt Shaq already named to the 50 greatest players in NBA history by then?


Hes trolling just fine, Ive seen worse from you

Actually, Spain won that Gold with Pau breaking his leg in the semifinals game. They won the gold medal game without him.


Yes, Shaq was named the 50 greatest players in NBA history, but you have to think really, on what account? Just because he played 4 seasons, led his team to the finals (but got swept while having HCA) and got a scoring title? :confused:


And seems like you always have it out for me. What's the deal? For a "veteran" here on PSD, looks like you need a lot of growing up to do son.

Teeboy1487
06-22-2012, 09:36 PM
Anyone who says Kobe rode shaqs coat tails in that 3peat didn't watch the Lakers at all ask the spurs who killed them in those series I live in Austin and everyone here hates Kobe because he was the one smashing their hearts,ask the nets who started that sweep I hate when people say shaq got those rings by himself if their was ever a co-captained team it was that won they won those together they couldn't have done that without each other.....well maybe Kobe will. Lol

I agree. Shaq was number one indeed but he did not carry those teams by himself. Kobe was just as much a factor in the Lakers' success. I considered Shaq 1A and Kobe 1B.

FlashMacker
06-23-2012, 12:18 AM
Um no.

1977 NBA

1. Maurice Lucas
2. Bill Walton

He had another guy who made the allstar team on his team.


1991 NBA

1. Michael Jordan

1998 NBA

1. Michael Jordan



2012 NBA

1. Chris Bosh
2. LeBron James
3. Dwyane Wade



1994 NBA

1. Hakeem Olajuwon


1995 NBA

1. Hakeem Olajuwon




What I find amusing is people who say Hakeem won by himself or Rick Barry but yet say Jordan did not when Jordan as well was the only allstar on the team a few years the Bulls won. They say Jordan had allstars but fail to acknowledge that Hakeem had a guy who made the allstar 2 years prior as well and then the next year had a guy who led the team in the playoffs in Win Shares and had more total win shares than Hakeem himself in 1995.
Then you get the ones that say Rick Barry won by himself, but yet had Jamal Wilkes on the team that won it all in 1975 who is a Hall of Famer.



Jordan didn't win by himself lol. Pippen might not have made the all star game those years but he was still a legend player and Jordan never won without him.

RapOZo
06-23-2012, 01:46 AM
2009-10 Cleveland 61 21 .744 1st Central Division 6 5 .545 Lost East Conf Semis
2008-09 Cleveland 66 16 .805 1st Central Division 10 4 .714 Lost East Conf Finals
2007-08 Cleveland 45 37 .549 2nd Central Division 7 6 .538 Lost East Conf Semis
2006-07 Cleveland 50 32 .610 2nd Central Division 12 8 .600 Lost NBA Finals
2005-06 Cleveland 50 32 .610

THOSE ARE PRETTY GOOD RECORDS, NO "BAD" SUPPORTING TEAM CAN DO THAT, EVEN WENT TO THE FINALS AND WHO FAILED TO PERFORM AS THE STAR HE WAS SUPPOSED TO PERFORM LIKE WAS LEBRON,

A LEGEND CARRIES HIS MEDIOCRE TEAM TO GREATNESS, HE DOESN'T GO JUMPING TEAMS UNTIL FIND ONE THAT WILL CARRY HIM.


AND PAU WAS NOT EVEN A 20-10 PLAYER WHEN HE BECAME A LAKER, BOSH AND WADE WERE BOTH 25+ PPG PLAYERS.

smiddy012
06-23-2012, 01:52 AM
2009-10 Cleveland 61 21 .744 1st Central Division 6 5 .545 Lost East Conf Semis
2008-09 Cleveland 66 16 .805 1st Central Division 10 4 .714 Lost East Conf Finals
2007-08 Cleveland 45 37 .549 2nd Central Division 7 6 .538 Lost East Conf Semis
2006-07 Cleveland 50 32 .610 2nd Central Division 12 8 .600 Lost NBA Finals
2005-06 Cleveland 50 32 .610

THOSE ARE PRETTY GOOD RECORDS, NO "BAD" SUPPORTING TEAM CAN DO THAT, EVEN WENT TO THE FINALS AND WHO FAILED TO PERFORM AS THE STAR HE WAS SUPPOSED TO PERFORM LIKE WAS LEBRON,

A LEGEND CARRIES HIS MEDIOCRE TEAM TO GREATNESS, HE DOESN'T GO JUMPING TEAMS UNTIL FIND ONE THAT WILL CARRY HIM.


AND PAU WAS NOT EVEN A 20-10 PLAYER WHEN HE BECAME A LAKER, BOSH AND WADE WERE BOTH 25+ PPG PLAYERS.

Pau was basically a 20/10 player the three years before he came to the Lakers, please explain how Pau was not a top 20 player before he joined the Lakers, preferably in lower caps.

FlashMacker
06-23-2012, 02:00 AM
2009-10 Cleveland 61 21 .744 1st Central Division 6 5 .545 Lost East Conf Semis
2008-09 Cleveland 66 16 .805 1st Central Division 10 4 .714 Lost East Conf Finals
2007-08 Cleveland 45 37 .549 2nd Central Division 7 6 .538 Lost East Conf Semis
2006-07 Cleveland 50 32 .610 2nd Central Division 12 8 .600 Lost NBA Finals
2005-06 Cleveland 50 32 .610

THOSE ARE PRETTY GOOD RECORDS, NO "BAD" SUPPORTING TEAM CAN DO THAT, EVEN WENT TO THE FINALS AND WHO FAILED TO PERFORM AS THE STAR HE WAS SUPPOSED TO PERFORM LIKE WAS LEBRON,

A LEGEND CARRIES HIS MEDIOCRE TEAM TO GREATNESS, HE DOESN'T GO JUMPING TEAMS UNTIL FIND ONE THAT WILL CARRY HIM.


AND PAU WAS NOT EVEN A 20-10 PLAYER WHEN HE BECAME A LAKER, BOSH AND WADE WERE BOTH 25+ PPG PLAYERS.


Did you watch the finals? LeBron led the team to the ship.

RapOZo
06-23-2012, 02:03 AM
Pau was basically a 20/10 player the three years before he came to the Lakers, please explain how Pau was not a top 20 player before he joined the Lakers, preferably in lower caps.
He never while in Memphis averaged 10 rebs, got pretty closed but not even, but anyway,
ONLY Bosh was a 24 ppg and 10.8, but that's "basically" a 25/11 player
look at his numbers now, almost 10 decrease, and almost 8 for wade.
talking about making your teammates better and being selfish

you need to understand this, when lebron passes the ball, he is not trying to make you score, he is trying to get an assist for his stats

FlashMacker
06-23-2012, 02:06 AM
He never while in Memphis averaged 10 rebs, got pretty closed but not even, but anyway,
ONLY Bosh was a 24 ppg and 10.8, but that's "basically" a 25/11 player
look at his numbers now, almost 10 decrease, and almost 8 for wade.
talking about making your teammates better and being selfish

you need to understand this, when lebron passes the ball, he is not trying to make you score, he is trying to get an assist for his stats

:laugh: If he's not trying to get them to score how is he gonna get an assist lol?

RapOZo
06-23-2012, 02:10 AM
Did you watch the finals? LeBron led the team to the ship.
What are you talking about? I didn't see lebron closing out a single game, not a single game winning shot, I din't see lebron dominating to a point that OKC didn't know what to do to stop him, I just saw a great player accumulating numbers with his great physical abilities, and another 2 great players filling up big time plus huge key contributions from charmers and battier, and Miller in game 5.

so yeah he "basically" led by having great raw stats, but I did not see a legendary performance from him.

FlashMacker
06-23-2012, 02:14 AM
What are you talking about? I didn't see lebron closing out a single game, not a single game winning shot, I din't see lebron dominating to a point that OKC didn't know what to do to stop him, I just saw a great player accumulating numbers with his great physical abilities, and another 2 great players filling up big time plus huge key contributions from charmers and battier, and Miller in game 5.

so yeah he "basically" led by having great raw stats, but I did not see a legendary performance from him.

Guess you missed game 2. He had that bank shot and made 2 huge free throws to seal the game.

RapOZo
06-23-2012, 02:15 AM
:laugh: If he's not trying to get them to score how is he gonna get an assist lol?
did you ever play ball in your life? I mean, other than video games,
being selfish on the court is also wanting to take over by scoring and also the main distributor,
I have the ball, I look for you, you get to score, but i'm not actually concerned about your scoring, I'm concerned about getting my assists.

D1JM
06-23-2012, 02:15 AM
Well, Shaq did join up with Kobe :shrug:

Makes me wonder, I would the same thing would be true if either MJ or Kobe were drafted by a team like Cleveland. A team in an undesirable market with not great coach and no great players?

I wonder if LeBron would have left LA with Shaq and Phil there. I wonder if he would have left Chicago with Pippen and Phil there?

I'm going to go ahead and say that you can't treat every scenario the same. Cleveland in the mid-late 2000s was FAR different than Chicago in the early 90s and LA in the late 90s. Cleveland wasn't and isn't 1/10th as desirable as a place to play.

Actually, Chicago was the Cleveland of the 80's. One of the reasons why magic didn't want to get drafted by the bulls.

D1JM
06-23-2012, 02:37 AM
Scottie Pippen: A ****ing legend in his own right. Nough said. PIPPEN guarded the best perimeter player of other teams, not Jordan which i am 99% sure helped him out a ton.

Read this article first, it might help you out (http://chasing23.com/did-scottie-pippen-always-guard-the-other-teams-best-player/)

Second, Jordan didn't have a top 3 player next to him. Imagine if Jordan would of joined a guy like "the dream," magic or bird and still have pippen in the team?

But if it makes you feel better by downplaying another players greatness to justify lebron's than more power to you.

GoneGuru
06-23-2012, 02:52 AM
The 1994 Rockets are a great example of a "transition" champion, this was right after Jordan retired, so it was anyones game. the Rockets at that time had 6 quality players on that roster, and a couple of soild prospects, one of them being a rookie sam cassell.

Now the Rockets took advantage of great momentum and a deep rotation with a great scheme to win that title in 1994. it also should be stated that everyone pretty much assumed that the Seattle Sonics were going to take the 94 title before choking away (as usual) in the opening round. it was simply the rockets time. (similar to Dallas in 2011, they had a great scheme, 11 guys deep, one superstar and a ton of momentum.)

however to say that olajuwon did it on his own that year is proposterous, coaching was far and above tremendous, the scheme, the chemistry and the way they believed in what they did is why houston won, and they got 10 deep the next year when they added drexler, who was still balling at that time. (they repeated as a result.)

the bulls are a product of excellent coaching, great role players, a disciplined system, and players that excelled in it. (honestly, was pippen or kukoc or anyone ever any good after leaving that triangle?) and also lets not forget ron harper and dennis rodman were on that roster. (and again, ron harper could ball like it was no ones business at that time, but wasnt a big name...at all.)

the bulls were deep and had excellent coaching.

then we have the lakers, who were stacked during both title runs. great system and role players to go along with that. (the 09, 10, lakers while not having another superstar, had to other high caliber super stars, quality point guards, and even ron artest at one point and bynum and ariza who rose to prominence at this time. and lets not forget a role player like shannon brown, who gives people fits with his athletisism and hustle.) those finds are the reason why the lake show was deep and made those title runs.

Same thing for boston in 08, while many doubted them to win year one, they had house, allen, perkins, rondo, to go along with 3 desperate superstars who were older. add that to rivers and little moves like p.j.brown at the FA deadline and rookie in glen davis (whos a solid player even then in limited minutes.) and this team was super deep and rivers molded a system that benefitted them as he always does (designs a team to its strengths rather than make players play a system they cant.)

the 3 common things these teams have is: great management, superior depth and excellent system/coaching.

same thing with the heat this year in 2012. with spoelstra perhaps coming up with the Spread offense and the same defense the heat have always run under riley with a few tweaks. spoelstra decided to pull a doc rivers and make the system fits players rather than vice versa. another note is the superior depth in comparison with 11 as opposed to 12, with really only 2 additions in Cole And Battier, who were huge as battier is the best signing no one cared about and cole seems like a gem who needs some polish to be consistent.

add that to mario chalmers evolving and less iso (which if you ask that knicks, kills your team.) and you can see why they won the title.

the thunder, for as deep as they are, did not utilize their depth, seemed to fail to make adjustments, and for some reason refused to reign in Westbrook. durant should have been the guy to score 43 in a game... not westbrook. westbrook while talented and a frikin nightmare, should never be allowed to shoot that much ever. also harden disappeared, perkins is just average since showing up in OKC (perhaps not a great "system" fit.)

the lack of an interior scoring option, which relagates the team to "jump shooters" and starting 2 centers (which seems redundant.) and i can understand why OKC lost.

OKC at no point used their depth when things didnt go right. They didnt use mohammed who is still serviceable. cook, who can heat up fast and even move durant around the floor to create mismatches. once i saw this in game 1, i KNEW that my prediction of Miami winning was correct. just as i predicted in game 2 that Miami had to make major adjustments to dallas defensive scheme or they would lose the series, and they did because they did not have no where near the personnel to do that, and to be honest couple that with lebrons passive-ness and everyone else disappearing too and it was easy to understand why this happened, it wasnt a surprise, dallas played defense, played together and had a great scheme, them wining in 2011 wasnt a mistake.

The point is that no team in the nba won a title with Tom Superstar and 9 other joe schmoes. and thats what lebron had in cleveland. solid players that were aging and on top of that a cap situation that made sure things would never get better.

End of the day, cleveland blew it, James didnt want to end up like dan marino in miami for the NFL. that man was the best quarterback i have ever seen play and had mediocre talent around him on both sides of the ball year in and out for 15 years. and today no one gives a flying shist about him.

James did the logical thing and is reaping benefits for it. because as this thread states, no one in any sport can do it on their own.

Shkelqim
06-23-2012, 03:19 AM
No Player can win it by himself, you still need pieces to win it. if a player can score over 100 points a night that's understandable, but no player can do that. Also to win championships you need defense, defense is a team game u can be a great individual defender but there are 5 players on the other team. No matter every team that won had to have a team not a single star, the star will lead you but a star can't win it for you. LeBron James always had the assist numbers up which means he created alot for others, Kinda why Chalmers is still the PG he knows LeBron will do his job lol but again a team wins championships but a single player. LeBron Wade and Bosh all had to contribute respectfully to win a championship, so if we start this lets bash Paul Pierce for bringing in Kevin Garnett and arguably the greatest 3 point shooter of all time ray Allen. Get of "the" "LeBron James", he won it fair.

ChicagoFan4Eva
06-23-2012, 03:25 AM
Meh, If lebron won it in cleveland and he didn't do that "take my talents crap" then no one would be bashing him lol

ChicagoFan4Eva
06-23-2012, 03:26 AM
he shook hands with the ref *shrugs* yup, fair fight.

sunsfan88
06-23-2012, 03:33 AM
Teams make trades to shut their superstars up? The same superstars that make the city and franchise millions of dollars per year? If they truly wanted to shut Kobe up, wouldn't they have shipped him off like Lamar Odom? Don't all teams usually atleast try to trade for talent or make tinker moves when they are looking to compete? Or atleast build a solid ground for a championship in the long run?

LA trading for Gasol meant Marc Gasol going to Memphis, how has that worked out? Is he a bust? It also opened up the cap-room for them to sign Zach Randolph. Nowhere close to a rip-off.
Umm only difference is that Kobe is probably 10 times a better player than Odom? No, 10 times is being generous.

And please man, at the time Marc was supposed to suck. He was a 2nd rd pick. He wasn't supposed to turn out this good. And they didn't sign Randolph, they traded for him.

Only Laker fans would feel like the Gasol trade was fair.

kblo247
06-23-2012, 03:36 AM
I read the OP and hit my head when I saw Pau called a superstar. A guy who made the all star and all nba teams once and was 0-12. Pau wasnt thought of in the same breath as JO let alone KG as a PF, and thought of as even softer as a C. Just because he got fame and overrated after LA took off doesn't make him a superstar, or even that high of status years ago when the trade went down as KG, JO, Brand, Boozer, and Amare at F were all thought of as being better much like Dwight, Shaq, and Yao at C when he was dealt

sunsfan88
06-23-2012, 03:38 AM
Memphis didn't get ripped off



So your saying Pau was worth a 2nd rd pick and a bunch of scrubs?

Wow man quit hating on Pau!

kblo247
06-23-2012, 03:41 AM
Umm only difference is that Kobe is probably 10 times a better player than Odom? No, 10 times is being generous.

And please man, at the time Marc was supposed to suck. He was a 2nd rd pick. He wasn't supposed to turn out this good. And they didn't sign Randolph, they traded for him.

Only Laker fans would feel like the Gasol trade was fair.

Marc was the MVP of the Spanish League when he was traded. And for the record just to be clear, LA nixed the Pau deal. They outright nixed a trade for Pau weeks before as they wanted to keep Kwame, Bynum, Ronny, and Lamar by the admission of Mitch and the Buss family. They went back to the table for Pau only after Bynum got hurt and even then they talked Farmar out the deal as Pau was not wanted by Memphis at the time for faking a back injury, asking to be traded the previous year, getting hurt in Spain and costing them a year, and because he couldnt generate revenue to offset the max money they were paying him. LA had them over a barrel and banged em out like a pornstar, like a good owner and business man should

sunsfan88
06-23-2012, 03:42 AM
No, but they didn't run to a team loaded with all stars either. LeBron will always be known as the ring chaser who gave up any shot of passing up Kobe or Jordan.
Why do people keep saying this? LeBron didn't "run" anywhere.

He SIGNED with Cleveland when he first became a free agent after the 06 season.

Then Va

basketfan4life
06-23-2012, 03:51 AM
Amnesty Kobe.

oh man, i really like your posts :)

Becks2307
06-23-2012, 06:11 AM
There is a huge difference between staying with your team and developing and going to a team with established players.

How many Finals MVPS did Jordan play with?

And its been mentioned many times before, Lebron Cleveland teams were good.

They may look bad on paper, but go back 3-4 years ago all anyone could talk about was how perfect they were for Lebron. How can people call the Cleveland team bad when they were DESTROYING the league back then. Their 3 year stretch was dominant, the Q was a fortress, they were not some scrub team. Every year they lost was a shock.

I am not hating on the Lebron at all, he totally deserved this chip. BUT there is a stark difference between how Jordan won his and how Lebron won his.

Imagine Jordan holding a press conference in 1990 saying "I'm taking my talents to Detroit" then winning a chip with Isiah, he would have been roasted too.

3ballbomber
06-23-2012, 06:12 AM
Read this article first, it might help you out (http://chasing23.com/did-scottie-pippen-always-guard-the-other-teams-best-player/)

Second, Jordan didn't have a top 3 player next to him. Imagine if Jordan would of joined a guy like "the dream," magic or bird and still have pippen in the team?

But if it makes you feel better by downplaying another players greatness to justify lebron's than more power to you.
This.

If Only some of these kids could have followed Jordan throughout his career instead of reading about it or watching highlights on Youtube they'd actually realize they couldn't use anything about him to try and justify Lebron's failures.

Becks2307
06-23-2012, 06:20 AM
Not to mention Lebron may be the most hyped and talented player EVER.

He was the guy we wanted to see dominate and break records. No one hated Lebron early on, we wanted to see greatness, then he leaves to go play with a top 3 player and a top 15 player despite the fact he was getting number one seeds already, i think people felt cheated.

Glen20
06-23-2012, 06:54 AM
Not to mention Lebron may be the most hyped and talented player EVER.

He was the guy we wanted to see dominate and break records. No one hated Lebron early on, we wanted to see greatness, then he leaves to go play with a top 3 player and a top 15 player despite the fact he was getting number one seeds already, i think people felt cheated.

tbh i think if the league had the same depth that it had in Jordan's time wade and bosh wouldn't be considered elite. Maybe wade would.

Becks2307
06-23-2012, 07:27 AM
tbh i think if the league had the same depth that it had in Jordan's time wade and bosh wouldn't be considered elite. Maybe wade would.

Wade was a finals MVP...he would have been elite in any era. Other than Jordan and Kobe which SGs from 1985-2002 are better than wade?

sunsfan88
06-23-2012, 07:34 AM
Kobe whined and b****ched about the Lakers FO & demanded a trade.....Lakers trade for Pau Gasol.

LeBron tells the FO to improve the team or he's gone....Cavs trade for the 63 year old Shaq and 49 year old Jamison.

Glen20
06-23-2012, 07:41 AM
Wade was a finals MVP...he would have been elite in any era. Other than Jordan and Kobe which SGs from 1985-2002 are better than wade?

i didnt just mean SGs
i meant overall as a player.
umm if you compare him to player in terms of ranking back in Jordans era im thinking Drexler? Tmac was also better during his prime.

Hes definitely not as good as pippen.

sunsfan88
06-23-2012, 07:41 AM
Marc was the MVP of the Spanish League when he was traded. And for the record just to be clear, LA nixed the Pau deal. They outright nixed a trade for Pau weeks before as they wanted to keep Kwame, Bynum, Ronny, and Lamar by the admission of Mitch and the Buss family. They went back to the table for Pau only after Bynum got hurt and even then they talked Farmar out the deal as Pau was not wanted by Memphis at the time for faking a back injury, asking to be traded the previous year, getting hurt in Spain and costing them a year, and because he couldnt generate revenue to offset the max money they were paying him. LA had them over a barrel and banged em out like a pornstar, like a good owner and business man should

Ok I agree 100% with that last sentence. And that's exactly my point, Dan Gilbert was an awful owner and that's why LeBron left. Gilbert never put good players around LBJ. Jamison was probably the best one and even he is like 30 something years old.

Any superstar in NBA history would have left the Cavs and their d*****ss owner Dan Gilbert.

Lo Porto
06-23-2012, 07:41 AM
Pippen was a better player than Dwayne Wade and so was Shaq. If you factor in supporting cast it's not even close that Kobe and MJ had better teams. Now if you want to start a funny conversation, let's compare coaches...

Lo Porto
06-23-2012, 07:48 AM
Not to mention Lebron may be the most hyped and talented player EVER.

He was the guy we wanted to see dominate and break records. No one hated Lebron early on, we wanted to see greatness, then he leaves to go play with a top 3 player and a top 15 player despite the fact he was getting number one seeds already, i think people felt cheated.

Your 2nd point is valid (although I don't give Wade Top 3 status), but you also have to agree that Cleveland was tanking his chances of winning a title. LeBron wants to win just as badly as MJ or Kobe. But he didn't have Mitch Kupchak or Jerry Krause putting phenomenal teams around him. He had Danny Ferry making dumbass moves putting Cleveland further and further away from a title.

Your first point is absolutely wrong. LeBron has lived up to the hype. You're just ignoring the obvious if you're saying he didn't this postseason. 28.6, 10.2 and 7.4 a game in the Finals? WOW

STL Don
06-23-2012, 07:49 AM
Yea um, except just everybody has had help.?

Glen20
06-23-2012, 08:01 AM
Yea um, except just everybody has had help.?

but dont you know the unwritten laws of the universe?
Lebron must be criticized from every conceivable angle.
but at the end of the day who cares? haters can suck on this :win:

ogbcpr
06-23-2012, 08:04 AM
At the end of the day, with the game on the line, who is the LAST guy you want taking the winning shot out of the three mentioned in the OP?

End of discussion. And trust me, LeBron James knows the answer too because he'd be the last guy he chose to take the shot as well!

STL Don
06-23-2012, 08:06 AM
but dont you know the unwritten laws of the universe?
Lebron must be criticized from every conceivable angle.
but at the end of the day who cares? haters can suck on this :win:

Still doesn't take away from who he is a basketball player and what kind of icon he has become. He's 27 yrs old, already been to the finals 3 times and just earned his first one. I'm happy for him, he's great.. Kobe and Michael did not win by themselves 11 times altogether. Nothing to take away from what he's finally accomplished, just a ways to go still.

BklynKnicks3
06-23-2012, 08:13 AM
people really are clueless who cares about role player they didnt have wade n bosh Wade?pippen by alot not to mention jordan didnt join pippen like a spineless coward

Becks2307
06-23-2012, 08:25 AM
Your 2nd point is valid (although I don't give Wade Top 3 status), but you also have to agree that Cleveland was tanking his chances of winning a title. LeBron wants to win just as badly as MJ or Kobe. But he didn't have Mitch Kupchak or Jerry Krause putting phenomenal teams around him. He had Danny Ferry making dumbass moves putting Cleveland further and further away from a title.

Your first point is absolutely wrong. LeBron has lived up to the hype. You're just ignoring the obvious if you're saying he didn't this postseason. 28.6, 10.2 and 7.4 a game in the Finals? WOW

I'm talking about Wade being top 3 when Lebron first went there, i don't think thats debatable. Now not to much with the emergence of durant etc.

What point are you saying I got wrong? I never said Lebron didn't live up to the hype I said

"Not to mention Lebron may be the most hyped and talented player EVER."

is that wrong?

sunsfan88
06-23-2012, 08:25 AM
LeBron haters: STFU

sunsfan88
06-23-2012, 08:27 AM
Not to mention Lebron may be the most hyped and talented player EVER.

He was the guy we wanted to see dominate and break records. No one hated Lebron early on, we wanted to see greatness, then he leaves to go play with a top 3 player and a top 15 player despite the fact he was getting number one seeds already, i think people felt cheated.

Lol do you realize that your sig is actually an insult towards the Knicks?

People don't boo at the special olympics because they feel sorry for them....are you saying people should feel sorry for the Knicks?

Becks2307
06-23-2012, 08:28 AM
i didnt just mean SGs
i meant overall as a player.
umm if you compare him to player in terms of ranking back in Jordans era im thinking Drexler? Tmac was also better during his prime.

Hes definitely not as good as pippen.


Wade is absolutely better than pippen. And much better than clyde as well.
Tmac yes but his prime was so short he doesn't really count.

Tell me at what stage in his career would Scottie have ever been finals mvp? Or put up 30 7 and 5.

you can't really compare the two anyway. Wade was a number one option.

JordansBulls
06-23-2012, 09:10 AM
Pippen was a better player than Dwayne Wade and so was Shaq. If you factor in supporting cast it's not even close that Kobe and MJ had better teams. Now if you want to start a funny conversation, let's compare coaches...

Pippen's PER during the Bulls years they won 22.0, 20.1, 16.9, 19.4, 18.1, 19.5 in the playoffs and 20.6, 21.5, 19.2, 21.0, 21.3, 20.4 in the Regular Season

Dwyane Wade's PER was 22.0 in the playoffs and 26.3 in the Regular Season

So Wade is a role player when he averaged 23/6/5/1/1 in the finals and 23/5/4 in the playoffs as a whole and had a 22 PER while in the season he had a 26.3 PER.

Damn what role player puts up a 26.3 PER for a season? Some of you guys are unbelievable with the **** you come up with. And as a note each year the Bulls won the title Pippen's PER was lower than what Wade was in the playoffs and definitely lower in the season.



Lebron has much more talent on his team than MJ ever had and more proven talent at that. No one on the Bulls was more proven than MJ when the Bulls first won titles. Lebron already has Wade who won as the man. So no matter how you slice it, Wade already got it done as the man and it will be seen that Lebron needed someone who could win as the man to win it all.
In Cleveland he even had proven winners on his team in Ben Wallace (led team to title) and Shaq (3x finals mvp and 1x league mvp).
Jordan never played with anyone that won league or finals mvp. Not only that but Wade, Lebron and Bosh were #1, #2 and #4 in PER the season before they joined forces together.

Not to mention Lebron has already lost 3 series with HCA while MJ lost 0 and is the only top 15 player to never lose a series with HCA. And the fact Lebron has 2 bronze medals won't help him here.

superwill
06-23-2012, 09:14 AM
Wade is absolutely better than pippen. And much better than clyde as well.
Tmac yes but his prime was so short he doesn't really count.

Tell me at what stage in his career would Scottie have ever been finals mvp? Or put up 30 7 and 5.

you can't really compare the two anyway. Wade was a number one option.

wade is not a better basketball player then pippen no way in hell.

P.S. If I'am dominique wilkins I would feel so disrespected a lot of the so called stars in todays game couldn't hold his jock strap let a lone be on the same court as him

JordansBulls
06-23-2012, 09:19 AM
wade is not a better basketball player then pippen no way in hell.

P.S. If I'am dominique wilkins I would feel so disrespected a lot of the so called stars in todays game couldn't hold his jock strap let a lone be on the same court as him

Wade most certainly is. He has better numbers than Pippen and he won a title as the best player on his team carrying a franchise to a title.

Glen20
06-23-2012, 09:20 AM
Wade most certainly is. He has better numbers than Pippen and he won a title as the best player on his team carrying a franchise to a title.

so wade > pippen? That never going to change now?

YOLO
06-23-2012, 09:20 AM
neither did lebron. he had wade bosh and stern

Glen20
06-23-2012, 09:25 AM
neither did lebron. he had wade bosh and stern

well im not sure how good stern's basketball skills are

YOLO
06-23-2012, 09:27 AM
well im not sure how good stern's basketball skills are

his manipulation skills are top notch

Glen20
06-23-2012, 09:29 AM
his manipulation skills are top notch

well he is/was a lawyer

JordansBulls
06-23-2012, 09:39 AM
so wade > pippen? That never going to change now?

Yes he is. He has better overall numbers than Pippen, higher overall productivity

PER Season
1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James 27.24
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Dwyane Wade 25.70
113. Scottie Pippen* 18.63

PER Playoffs
1. Michael Jordan* 28.60
2. George Mikan* 28.51
3. LeBron James 27.10
4. Shaquille O'Neal 26.13
5. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69
6. Tim Duncan 25.27
7. Kevin Durant 24.70
8. Dirk Nowitzki 24.68
9. Charles Barkley* 24.18
10. Dwyane Wade 24.06
83. Scottie Pippen* 18.35


WS/PER 48 minutes Season
1. Michael Jordan* .2505
22. Dwyane Wade .1955
112. Scottie Pippen* .1462


WS/PER 48 minutes Playoffs
21. Dwyane Wade .1823
76. Scottie Pippen* .1396

GREATNESS ONE
06-23-2012, 09:48 AM
They left their teams to team up with other superstars in their cities?

News to me...

On a side note; I hate comparing Legends. Let them be, they are all different and all possessed Greatness.

camador22
06-23-2012, 10:20 AM
Yes he is. He has better overall numbers than Pippen, higher overall productivity

PER Season
1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James 27.24
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Dwyane Wade 25.70
113. Scottie Pippen* 18.63

PER Playoffs
1. Michael Jordan* 28.60
2. George Mikan* 28.51
3. LeBron James 27.10
4. Shaquille O'Neal 26.13
5. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69
6. Tim Duncan 25.27
7. Kevin Durant 24.70
8. Dirk Nowitzki 24.68
9. Charles Barkley* 24.18
10. Dwyane Wade 24.06
83. Scottie Pippen* 18.35


WS/PER 48 minutes Season
1. Michael Jordan* .2505
22. Dwyane Wade .1955
112. Scottie Pippen* .1462


WS/PER 48 minutes Playoffs
21. Dwyane Wade .1823
76. Scottie Pippen* .1396

You just owned that dude lol. The truth is Kobe and MJ both needed great teams to win. For 3 years Shaq was the alfa dog in LA and don't give me that 1 and 1a BS. Cavs never gave James the support players he needed to get the job done. It wasn't until MJ got help that he actually won titles. It's time for everyone to stomach the fact that James is the clear cut best player in the league and will win more rings.

Swashcuff
06-23-2012, 10:27 AM
JB just owning people in this thread. Pippen was a better sidekick and meshed better with MJ but people trying to argue that Pippen was a better player aren't being honest with themselves.

camador22
06-23-2012, 10:49 AM
I think you still can't make the MJ / Lebron comparison. If Lebron was had the leadership and was consistently clutch than he would be the GOAT. He's simply the greatest talent of all time and now safe to say a top 10 ever. We cannot forget that Lebron played with SCRUBS in the Cavs. They went from championship contender to worst in the league. The Bulls lost MJ and still went to the ECF.

Swashcuff
06-23-2012, 10:52 AM
2009-10 Cleveland 61 21 .744 1st Central Division 6 5 .545 Lost East Conf Semis
2008-09 Cleveland 66 16 .805 1st Central Division 10 4 .714 Lost East Conf Finals
2007-08 Cleveland 45 37 .549 2nd Central Division 7 6 .538 Lost East Conf Semis
2006-07 Cleveland 50 32 .610 2nd Central Division 12 8 .600 Lost NBA Finals
2005-06 Cleveland 50 32 .610

THOSE ARE PRETTY GOOD RECORDS, NO "BAD" SUPPORTING TEAM CAN DO THAT, EVEN WENT TO THE FINALS AND WHO FAILED TO PERFORM AS THE STAR HE WAS SUPPOSED TO PERFORM LIKE WAS LEBRON,

A LEGEND CARRIES HIS MEDIOCRE TEAM TO GREATNESS, HE DOESN'T GO JUMPING TEAMS UNTIL FIND ONE THAT WILL CARRY HIM.


AND PAU WAS NOT EVEN A 20-10 PLAYER WHEN HE BECAME A LAKER, BOSH AND WADE WERE BOTH 25+ PPG PLAYERS.


He never while in Memphis averaged 10 rebs, got pretty closed but not even, but anyway,
ONLY Bosh was a 24 ppg and 10.8, but that's "basically" a 25/11 player
look at his numbers now, almost 10 decrease, and almost 8 for wade.
talking about making your teammates better and being selfish

you need to understand this, when lebron passes the ball, he is not trying to make you score, he is trying to get an assist for his stats


What are you talking about? I didn't see lebron closing out a single game, not a single game winning shot, I din't see lebron dominating to a point that OKC didn't know what to do to stop him, I just saw a great player accumulating numbers with his great physical abilities, and another 2 great players filling up big time plus huge key contributions from charmers and battier, and Miller in game 5.

so yeah he "basically" led by having great raw stats, but I did not see a legendary performance from him.

Filth all absolute filth. Hands down the worst posts by the worst poster in this thread. :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

BKLYNpigeon
06-23-2012, 10:52 AM
The stat sheet doesnt mean anything. Pippen was better then Wade. Pippen took the Bulls to the ECF without Jordan and could have won it if it wasnt for a BS call. Wade couldnt carry a team out of the 1st round of the playoffs.

YOLO
06-23-2012, 10:57 AM
The stat sheet doesnt mean anything. Pippen was better then Wade. Pippen took the Bulls to the ECF without Jordan and could have won it if it wasnt for a BS call. Wade couldnt carry a team out of the 1st round of the playoffs.

While defensive metrics might not be able to do justice to his defensive dominance, stats are almost always more accurate than the eye test and remembering events...

BKLYNpigeon
06-23-2012, 10:59 AM
Lebron Puss out and decided to play with his all star friends to win a Ring.

Kobe and MJ stuck with their Original teams and allowed the process to happen naturally.

xxplayerxx23
06-23-2012, 11:05 AM
Look i do not agree with Lebrons desicon to play in miami, But to try and discredit what he did and what he has now accomplished is just stupid

BigCityofDreams
06-23-2012, 11:20 AM
So your saying Pau was worth a 2nd rd pick and a bunch of scrubs?

Wow man quit hating on Pau!

What I'm saying is everyone thought it was a heist and it wasn't.

BlinkManJan02
06-23-2012, 11:45 AM
I am 99% sure, if Cleveland could provide LeBron with a case like Chicago provided MJ and LA provided Kobe, he'd still be in a Cavs jersey and they would have not one but multiple championships already.

Agree, they didn't provide him with much. I was so glad when he left Cleveland, cause then it became the Bucks time to shine in the Central..right? Wrong. Still awful.

Also, to say Jordan and Kobe won on their own is just ridiculous ! I'm not a lebron fan at all, I'm happy Howard finally got a ring though haha, and Wade got another alright.

venom518
06-23-2012, 11:50 AM
First of all no one wins the championship "By themselves". One guy did not take on five other guys and win. MJ didn't, Kobe didn't, and Hakeem didn't either. They all needed help. Hakeem had Drexler, Horry, Kenny Smith, Maxwell, Smeagel (aka..Sam Cassel), and Otis Thorpe. To win a championship, you have to play as a unit. Team basketball, that's what Miami learned. They learned to trust their team. Battier game 2, Chalmers game 3, Norris Cole game 4, and Miller time in game 5. Trusting your team and playing as a cohesive unit wins championships. NO ONE WINS IT ALONE!!!!!!!!

xxplayerxx23
06-23-2012, 11:51 AM
@Venom I took my 10th grade team all the way by myself :P

NYKNYGNYY
06-23-2012, 11:51 AM
Not only does lebron have a ring but so does eddy curry ...was it really worth it Miami? Is it worth for lebron to get one If it means eddy curry also receives one to? Think about it heat fans lol ;)

xxplayerxx23
06-23-2012, 11:53 AM
Eddy curry is leaving so now him and Lebron will fight to the 2nd ring. Bets on who gets it first?

Lil Rhody
06-23-2012, 12:19 PM
Wait your telling me that the NBA wasn't 1 vs 1 before LeBron started to play. Damn thanks for clearing it up for me. I always thought mj and Kobe did it alone. Damn basketball seems like fun now. 5 vs 5 who would have thought?

Chi~TwnHawksFan
06-23-2012, 12:30 PM
Michael Jordan's cast-

Scottie Pippen: A ****ing legend in his own right. Nough said. PIPPEN guarded the best perimeter player of other teams, not Jordan which i am 99% sure helped him out a ton.

Dennis Rodman: One of the toughest mofos of all time, and amazing rebounder

Horace Grant: Pretty much averaged a double-double

Steve Kerr: Amazing 3 pt shooter

Tony Kukoch: Amazing 3 pt shooter/scorer

B.J. Armstrong- A double digit scorer on a consistent basis

Bulls Drafted: Pippen, Grant, Kukoc, armstrong

Bulls Signed/Traded for: Rodman Kerr

Heat:
Signed: Lebron, Bosh, Miller turiaf jones howard anthony battier curry
Drafted: Wade Chalmers Haslem Cole Harris Pittman

dalton749
06-23-2012, 01:07 PM
All that matters is that if LeBron came into the league in kobe's position he and shaq would of had more than 3 rings guaranteed

ink
06-23-2012, 01:35 PM
People think those two won by themselves?

People think anyone has ever won by themselves?

News to me...

This.

The whole thread is a strawman. The issue has always been HOW the team was assembled.

The whole "he had help" or didn't have help is a basketball forum cliche and I really have no idea why people obsess about it so much. Obviously every championship team is loaded with talent. The issue is how it gets assembled and how well suited for each other the talent is. Basically in the three BFFs (Bosh, Wade, and Lebron) you have so much talent to burn, the team doesn't really need to be all that great. You win on individual talent, which some basketball fans find repetitive and boring to watch. For the record, I also find endless Russell Westbrook drives and endless outside shooting by OKC to be tedious too. Disappointing series. Definitely didn't live up to expectations of being seriously competitive. I really thought OKC was a more rounded team than they showed. I liked that they didn't have "superstars" but rather had a roster of elite developing talent that was all produced through Sam Presti's extremely solid moves. So, again, it's the way a team is assembled that is the issue.

YashBoone
06-23-2012, 01:45 PM
Michael and Kobe didn't call up the best players of their generation and scheme to play together....

Lebron wade and bosh are 3 of the top 5 players in arguably the best single draft in history....

There is a lot to talk about in this matter. The old lakers had bomb squads and so did the old celtics

But let's not pretend that Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant did the same thing that Lebron did.... If you think it is the same then your just kiddin yourself.

Michael Jordan didn't call up Ewing and Isaiah and say, "yo let's team up and we will be unstoppable"
Bulls developed talent around Jordan, and signed key pieces around him.

Same with Kobe.... How you gonna say he had d fish? D fish is a great piece but on nobodies greatest of anything list.

ink
06-23-2012, 01:47 PM
Michael and Kobe didn't call up the best players of their generation and scheme to play together....

Lebron wade and bosh are 3 of the top 5 players in arguably the best single draft in history....

There is a lot to talk about in this matter. The old lakers had bomb squads and so did the old celtics

But let's not pretend that Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant did the same thing that Lebron did.... If you think it is the same then your just kiddin yourself.

Michael Jordan didn't call up Ewing and Isaiah and say, "yo let's team up and we will be unstoppable"
Bulls developed talent around Jordan, and signed key pieces around him.

Same with Kobe.... How you gonna say he had d fish? D fish is a great piece but on nobodies greatest of anything list.

Good post. This is the problem people have with Lebron, not that he had "help". It's how he went about getting it that people have a hard time stomaching.

ryang
06-23-2012, 02:06 PM
why wait for gilbert to make the right moves?? just sayin... eat it cause if your team did it youd be fine... were the lakers mad when they traded for shaq? probably not.. they were free agents... whats the point anymore you people just hate the heat which is good for heat fans like me.. thanks...

AKA TheMamba
06-23-2012, 02:06 PM
Kobe and Jordan won on a team that trusted their management to bring in the right personnel for a championship run. Cleveland was always one of the favorites to come out the East year in and year out. I think he should have been a little more patient with Cleveland, by all means I see nothing wrong with the trio in Miami if and when they were assembled they could have went about it in a different way and just be more humble. Arrogance(not 1 not 2 not 3 etc., "The Decision," and a concert... Made me laugh but they immediately became villains for the rest of the league. But congrats to the HEAT fans, players, and city.

P.S. 363 Days more of gloating HEAT fans :facepalm: DAMN :p

ryang
06-23-2012, 02:08 PM
lmao...

YashBoone
06-23-2012, 02:08 PM
why wait for gilbert to make the right moves?? just sayin... eat it cause if your team did it youd be fine... were the lakers mad when they traded for shaq? probably not.. they were free agents... whats the point anymore you people just hate the heat which is good for heat fans like me.. thanks...

I'm didn't give my opinion on whether it was right or wrong... I dot really care anymore....

But it isn't the same and I think you know that.

ryang
06-23-2012, 02:09 PM
gilbert is a little boy... if he had been a member of the lakers he never woulda left... (lebron)... free agency.. it happens

YashBoone
06-23-2012, 02:10 PM
All heat fans have to say about any critizim is "hate hate hate hate hate".... Your team ain't perfect man, and some people are actually sincere when they are criticism them .... Since when are they above that?

Swashcuff
06-23-2012, 02:10 PM
I'm didn't give my opinion on whether it was right or wrong... I dot really care anymore....

But it isn't the same and I think you know that.

If you were to give an answer whether it was right or wrong what would you say?

ryang
06-23-2012, 02:12 PM
I'm didn't give my opinion on whether it was right or wrong... I dot really care anymore....

But it isn't the same and I think you know that.

it was free agency.. your right it wasnt a trade.. they signed contracts and played them out... they didnt hold out like revis... they dont demand trades C.paul dwight ect ect... the way they did it was arrogant true... as a heat fan you shouldnt expect much of an apology from me tho...

Becks2307
06-23-2012, 02:12 PM
Michael and Kobe didn't call up the best players of their generation and scheme to play together....

Lebron wade and bosh are 3 of the top 5 players in arguably the best single draft in history....

There is a lot to talk about in this matter. The old lakers had bomb squads and so did the old celtics

But let's not pretend that Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant did the same thing that Lebron did.... If you think it is the same then your just kiddin yourself.

Michael Jordan didn't call up Ewing and Isaiah and say, "yo let's team up and we will be unstoppable"
Bulls developed talent around Jordan, and signed key pieces around him.

Same with Kobe.... How you gonna say he had d fish? D fish is a great piece but on nobodies greatest of anything list.


THANK YOU

This is what the thread is about. NO one is denying MJ and Kobe had help. But its A Lot different when you call up 2 top 10 players (at the time) and collude to team up. I don't get whats so confusing about this.

No one really cares about Durant's "help" because Durant didn't call up Westbrook and Harden and say "hey lets team up" they built that team and the sucked at first but they grew together.

Imagine Durant calls up Howard and Rondo and 2-3 years and says, hey lets go play together people would roast him too.

Also its not like Lebron was on a .500 team he was on the best team in the league for his last couple seasons in Cleveland. Yes this was all due to him but there is a big difference between Tmac playing on the magic and going to Houston vs Lebron and Miami.

Not to mention the whole spectacle and everything.

And to whoever thinks Pippen is better than Wade, you need to get your head checked. If you want to argue that Pippen is a better champion than Wade or a better piece to the puzzle then thats fair, but Pippen is NO WHERE NEAR Wade's career, it isn't even close.

ryang
06-23-2012, 02:15 PM
you can complain about it all you want... i have no problem with that... but for the record we have been hated more then any team i can remember... so if you hear hate alot blame all the people who hate us... personally i dont care if they drop kick chia pets in there spare time or refer to themselves in the 3rd person.. just win...

ryang
06-23-2012, 02:17 PM
but why wait?? obviously lebron felt gilbert couldnt do it like okc or the lakers... so he left in FREE AGENCY.. 2 guys joined a team and you act like its then end of the world.. if lebron went to miami and we traded for bosh i guess it would be ok.. smh

ryang
06-23-2012, 02:19 PM
mello forced his way outta denver... c.p. did the same... dwight is doing the same... the celtics started big 3s joining via free agency... lebron and bosh didnt want to wait until they were on there last leg... good for them.. they learned rom k.g.s mistake... but they left in free agency... not the same as forcing your way outta a contract

YashBoone
06-23-2012, 02:19 PM
I'm didn't give my opinion on whether it was right or wrong... I dot really care anymore....

But it isn't the same and I think you know that.

If you were to give an answer whether it was right or wrong what would you say?

I don't personally think it was wrong. Not at all.

But I think what heat fans don't reize is that all the "hate" should be expected after the way they went about the while thing. From the dragging out, to the televised decision, to the rock concert, to the bragging and gloating (not one, not two......) to them saying it was gonna be easy (Lebron said they could put pat Riley on the court and win)..... Like the post above says, it made them natural villains to everyone who isn't a heat fan and maybe even to some more conservative old school heat fans..... The "hate" isn't really hate. if you have guys acting like immature *******s about the whole thing.

So is it wronge, no..... But do I understand the critisizm, yes.

Swashcuff
06-23-2012, 02:22 PM
I don't personally think it was wrong. Not at all.

But I think what heat fans don't reize is that all the "hate" should be expected after the way they went about the while thing. From the dragging out, to the televised decision, to the rock concert, to the bragging and gloating (not one, not two......) to them saying it was gonna be easy (Lebron said they could put pat Riley on the court and win)..... Like the post above says, it made them natural villains to everyone who isn't a heat fan and maybe even to some more conservative old school heat fans..... The "hate" isn't really hate. if you have guys acting like immature *******s about the whole thing.

So is it wronge, no..... But do I understand the critisizm, yes.

I smell ya bro. No beef with any of this. Solid post.

ryang
06-23-2012, 02:23 PM
like i said critisize it.. I dont care... not sure how my posts have led you to beleive i think you shouldnt hate us... i hated boston and still do

YashBoone
06-23-2012, 02:24 PM
mello forced his way outta denver... c.p. did the same... dwight is doing the same... the celtics started big 3s joining via free agency... lebron and bosh didnt want to wait until they were on there last leg... good for them.. they learned rom k.g.s mistake... but they left in free agency... not the same as forcing your way outta a contract

I personally think no team gets the consistent hate that the knicks get..... But, I hear what your saying. I'm a knick fan and I couldn't stand that melo drama and HE DID, take a lot of critisizm for it hear in ny.... People still hate him..... I personally find it sickening that all these players try to force their way out of contracts and into trades....

ryang
06-23-2012, 02:26 PM
ihate the lakers to... but i dont hate the bucks or warriors.. wonder why that is?? kobe rapped a white girls butthole but that has nothing to do with me disliking him..

ryang
06-23-2012, 02:28 PM
I personally think no team gets the consistent hate that the knicks get..... But, I hear what your saying. I'm a knick fan and I couldn't stand that melo drama and HE DID, take a lot of critisizm for it hear in ny.... People still hate him..... I personally find it sickening that all these players try to force their way out of contracts and into trades....

the knicks do get alot of hate.. for me its all those playoff seriess we had way back when.. but the rest of aerica hatesyou cause your new york.. jealousy.. miami la new york all great places so everybody else is gonna find a way to talk crap.. just my opinion

ryang
06-23-2012, 02:30 PM
but your fans talk more non sence then any fan base i have ever seen... not jus on psd either

YashBoone
06-23-2012, 02:34 PM
but your fans talk more non sence then any fan base i have ever seen... not jus on psd either

That's just new Yorkers in general, lmao.... There are a lot of good posters in our forum an a lot of horrible ones and we can't even get along amongst ourselves, but we are very passionate.... Right now there is a thread in the Knicks forum that is trying to argue the point that Jeremy Lin has proven that he is a better player then Russle Westbrook.

ztilzer31
06-23-2012, 02:39 PM
larry and magic didn't win by themselves either... wilt and kareem and bill as well... only one that won by himself was hakeem...

Even though I don't completely agree with this because he did have Drexler I appreciate the mention of Hakeem.

Best all around center of all time. The series where he dominated the paint against David Robinson, and Dennis Rodman was one of the most impressive things I've ever seen in basketball.

I agree with this whole post. Scottie Pippen is the most underrated player of all time. People forget that Jordan was as lucky as he was good. Him getting injured his second season was the best thing that could happen to him. He was great but overall anyone can see that LBJ is the GOAT all around player.

killbumdeluxe13
06-23-2012, 02:39 PM
good point, Jordan and Kobe definitely didn't do it by themselves. Like a few others have posted I think the issue people take with Lebron and the Big 3 is they way they went about it. It's not like Jordan lobbied to have Pippen or anything, Bulls actually made an intelligent draft day trade and it panned out. They added very good role players to surround Jordan with. And Kobe gave up on what could have been the meanest dynasty in NBA history by getting rid of Shaq. Lebron, Wade, and Bosh all decided to team up, and although we don't know for sure, it seems like that was their intent for quite a few seasons. The whole Decision thing on ESPN didn't help or the ****** attitude they all had last year (mocking Dirk, making comments wondering why a lot fans were rooting against them etc...). As much as I dislike the Heat and Lebron, I gotta give him props, he was an absolute beast this season and post season, and its scary to think what that crew is possible of accomplishing now that theyre over the hump.

YashBoone
06-23-2012, 02:46 PM
good point, Jordan and Kobe definitely didn't do it by themselves. Like a few others have posted I think the issue people take with Lebron and the Big 3 is they way they went about it. It's not like Jordan lobbied to have Pippen or anything, Bulls actually made an intelligent draft day trade and it panned out. They added very good role players to surround Jordan with. And Kobe gave up on what could have been the meanest dynasty in NBA history by getting rid of Shaq. Lebron, Wade, and Bosh all decided to team up, and although we don't know for sure, it seems like that was their intent for quite a few seasons. The whole Decision thing on ESPN didn't help or the ****** attitude they all had last year (mocking Dirk, making comments wondering why a lot fans were rooting against them etc...). As much as I dislike the Heat and Lebron, I gotta give him props, he was an absolute beast this season and post season, and its scary to think what that crew is possible of accomplishing now that theyre over the hump.

To be clear, I think there is one big point to be made.... I don't believe anyone has every said Lebron isn't one of the best players to ever play the game.
For me personally, growing up, there was nothing like watching Michael jordan play, but Lebron has taken it to another level. It's absurd how good he is..... But again, that isn't why people "hate" on him.... And he actually, in an interview after the finals, admitted to all the immaturity and **** he did last season, which step him up a notch in my book. But, the sad part is that he amitted to everything that people have been saying all along and been getting called haters for it.... Lmao....

ink
06-23-2012, 02:50 PM
To be clear, I think there is one big point to be made.... I don't believe anyone has every said Lebron isn't one of the best players to ever play the game.
For me personally, growing up, there was nothing like watching Michael jordan play, but Lebron has taken it to another level. It's absurd how good he is..... But again, that isn't why people "hate" on him.... And he actually, in an interview after the finals, admitted to all the immaturity and **** he did last season, which step him up a notch in my book. But, the sad part is that he amitted to everything that people have been saying all along and been getting called haters for it.... Lmao....

Absolutely true. It's the way he conducted himself, NOT that he has "help" now. And yes, as an athlete, I don't think anyone would say he isn't the most incredible of all time. As a competitor and as a person though, he is far behind. But I think we've known that. He rose in a lot of people's estimation with some of his honest post-series comments that's for sure.

ryang
06-23-2012, 02:51 PM
That's just new Yorkers in general, lmao.... There are a lot of good posters in our forum an a lot of horrible ones and we can't even get along amongst ourselves, but we are very passionate.... Right now there is a thread in the Knicks forum that is trying to argue the point that Jeremy Lin has proven that he is a better player then Russle Westbrook.

my mother is from new york trust me i know.. yea i seen that thread... wooow.

YashBoone
06-23-2012, 03:02 PM
That's just new Yorkers in general, lmao.... There are a lot of good posters in our forum an a lot of horrible ones and we can't even get along amongst ourselves, but we are very passionate.... Right now there is a thread in the Knicks forum that is trying to argue the point that Jeremy Lin has proven that he is a better player then Russle Westbrook.

my mother is from new york trust me i know.. yea i seen that thread... wooow.

I've tried my best to argue my point in that thread but not only is it pointless, but the person who started the thread has me blocked because I call him out on all the retarted **** he says.....everyone but a few posters agree anyway....

Funny **** is that I think that poster is from Miami...or at least Florida. Lmao

jiggin
06-23-2012, 03:19 PM
drop it...seriously.

LBJ is not on the same level as MJ no matter how you try and sell it, sorry.

Of course these guys had players around them and they didn't win championships themselves...who ever said that?

Defensive on this topic much? LOL

ztilzer31
06-23-2012, 03:34 PM
To be clear, I think there is one big point to be made.... I don't believe anyone has every said Lebron isn't one of the best players to ever play the game.
For me personally, growing up, there was nothing like watching Michael jordan play, but Lebron has taken it to another level. It's absurd how good he is..... But again, that isn't why people "hate" on him.... And he actually, in an interview after the finals, admitted to all the immaturity and **** he did last season, which step him up a notch in my book. But, the sad part is that he amitted to everything that people have been saying all along and been getting called haters for it.... Lmao....

Unfortunately this is untrue. Not tell Larry Bird said he was the best player in the game today did people start appreciating Lebron's talents (after he joined the Heat). So many cry baby fans trying to say Kobe was still the best player, or Durant is leagues beyond Lebron. People said a lot of dumb stuff about Lebron.

Look I can completely agree if you hate Lebron if you're from Cleveland, and I can understand not liking Lebron because of his statements after joining the Heat. Lebron is usually very humble so his statements came as a shock to most of the world... but that was 2 years ago. Get over it.

These are my top 4 stupid reason to hate Lebron.

1. He left Cleveland- Who doesn't leave Cleveland? Look at Cleveland's draft history. Besides Lebron James and Kyrie Irving they have 0 solid draft picks in that time. Dan Gilbert is one of the worst owners in the NBA IMO.

2. Left to get rings- After all the crying I hear from fans for there favorite players to get money? You're complaining that someone took less money for more rings? Give me a break.

3. He's not even that good- Stupid. Stupid. Stupid. This is something that was going around the forums for weeks. Lebron is the best player in the game today and it's not even close. In fact he's been the best players for the last 6 years. People no longer say this dumb crap, because they realize how dumb they were after Larry Bird said he was the best player in the game today. Dummies.

4. Lebron isn't clutch look at his games in Cleveland?- Oh yeah. I totally don't even remember him scoring 28 out of 32 points against the Pistons to lead his team to victory.


The Lebron hate only has ONE reason. Lebron is a great guy and does great things for his community and the people around him. Where your rapist Kobe jersey while you hate Lebron for changing teams. Maybe it's time to recheck your morals, and figure out who the bad guys are in the NBA.

(Even though I quoted you Yashboone this post is not directly targeted to you so please don't take offense.)

YashBoone
06-23-2012, 03:47 PM
^ no offense taken
And I get it and agree with what you said except for one thing.... I don't think people needed Larry bird to tell them about Lebron . Espn was broadcasting his high school games... I think everyone knew it but just found things to nit pick, like not clutch or bad jump shooter or still don't have a ring.... But the best people always get the most scrutiny.

sunsfan88
06-23-2012, 05:18 PM
Marc was the MVP of the Spanish League when he was traded. And for the record just to be clear, LA nixed the Pau deal. They outright nixed a trade for Pau weeks before as they wanted to keep Kwame, Bynum, Ronny, and Lamar by the admission of Mitch and the Buss family. They went back to the table for Pau only after Bynum got hurt and even then they talked Farmar out the deal as Pau was not wanted by Memphis at the time for faking a back injury, asking to be traded the previous year, getting hurt in Spain and costing them a year, and because he couldnt generate revenue to offset the max money they were paying him. LA had them over a barrel and banged em out like a pornstar, like a good owner and business man should

He was still a 2nd rd pick. Meaning 30 other teams passed on him.

Pau has more worth than a 2nd rd pick and team of scrubs imo. And do you have any links for the 2nd part of what you said?

Bornknick73
06-23-2012, 07:13 PM
None of them left thier teams to form Super teams. They let thier ownership put the pieces around them.

There is only one exception to this and thats KG. He gave Minny many years to do it and ultimately had to do what he did.

Lebron will always have that knock against him, no matter how many titles he wins. He had all the control in Cleveland, every personnel move was made with his approval and when he screwed it up he bailed on them. People blame the Cavs front office when they were pretty much puppets to King James wishes.

If you think he didnt have control over who they brought in then you havent been watching modern basketball. Same with Howard.

Players say they arent the GMs yet they are always consulted on personnel moves. And if they dont want someone on the team said players wouldnt be there.

ink
06-23-2012, 07:19 PM
None of them left thier teams to form Super teams. They let thier ownership put the pieces around them.

There is only one exception to this and thats KG. He gave Minny many years to do it and ultimately had to do what he did.

Lebron will always have that knock against him, no matter how many titles he wins. He had all the control in Cleveland, every personnel move was made with his approval and when he screwed it up he bailed on them. People blame the Cavs front office when they were pretty much puppets to King James wishes.

If you think he didnt have control over who they brought in then you havent been watching modern basketball. Same with Howard.

Players say they arent the GMs yet they are always consulted on personnel moves. And if they dont want someone on the team said players wouldnt be there.

Totally agree about the control he and Howard have had over personnel moves in the cities they bailed/want to bail on. It's convenient to laugh at management when in fact the "superstar" is in on every move. To think otherwise is just naive. Each franchise player has an enormous influence on management decisions.

Chronz
06-23-2012, 07:30 PM
Actually, Spain won that Gold with Pau breaking his leg in the semifinals game. They won the gold medal game without him.
Right, he was so great for them that he won the Tournament MVP in spite of that. And he also won Gold in the qualifiers to even get them into the World Championships. By HOF standards all he needed to do was retire.



Yes, Shaq was named the 50 greatest players in NBA history, but you have to think really, on what account? Just because he played 4 seasons, led his team to the finals (but got swept while having HCA) and got a scoring title? :confused:

LOL yeah thats all he did. Apparently it was enough to name him among the greatest 50 already. Deal with it


And seems like you always have it out for me. What's the deal? For a "veteran" here on PSD, looks like you need a lot of growing up to do son.
LOL, your calling me "son" and telling me I need to grow up? And why are you using quotations? And I dont have it out for you, your just an easy target because of the stuff you say. Its painfully obvious you dont know what the HOF is about and your defending your position in all the wrong ways. Rather than deny the obvious (that these guys were basically HOF'ers) you should diminish the obvious, which is being a HOF'er isnt a strong barometer because it encompasses things outside the NBA and doesnt treat every player equally.

mdm692
06-23-2012, 07:57 PM
Someone do me a favor and rank all the players 1-20 at the beginning of 2010-2011 season

Now rank the top 20 players of the 2002-2003 season

Same but now for the 1995-1996 season

Same but now for 1990-1991 season.

Now that you have that info how many of those players were playing on the same team. And of those players on the same team how many were considered top 5.

xxplayerxx23
06-23-2012, 08:00 PM
Has chronz ever lost an Arguement?

C-Style
06-23-2012, 10:55 PM
CLeveland was gonna built a team good enough team around him, he just got a little desperate

Glen20
06-23-2012, 10:58 PM
Someone do me a favor and rank all the players 1-20 at the beginning of 2010-2011 season

Now rank the top 20 players of the 2002-2003 season

Same but now for the 1995-1996 season

Same but now for 1990-1991 season.

Now that you have that info how many of those players were playing on the same team. And of those players on the same team how many were considered top 5.

why dont you do it yourself? :eyebrow:

NBAFan2012
06-23-2012, 11:05 PM
This is an original topic. I have never heard anyone bring this up ever in order to try to prove that Lebron is so great. I am sure if you google it you wont find any similar discussions.

:facepalm: