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DenButsu
06-22-2012, 11:54 AM
Don't even bother reading the setup article below. Just click the link and go straight to the video.

http://www.businessinsider.com/mark-cuban-first-take-2012-6

Probably hundreds of threads and thousands of comments have been posted here at PSD about how bad the sports media is. Cuban just did it better than any of us in these five minutes.

My only question.... WHERE'S PART 2 OF THIS VIDEO?!?


Mark Cuban Just DESTROYED ESPN Talking Head Skip Bayless
Tony Manfred | Jun. 22, 2012, 11:25 AM | 221 | 1

Mark Cuban went on First Take this morning to debate ESPN's biggest contrarian troll Skip Bayless.

And it was an absolute bloodbath.

Some quotes:

"You don't ever use facts, you don't ever use substance."

"First of all, you have the presumption that people care what you say. They don't."

He also just obliterates the notion that Miami "played harder" than OKC, and makes Skip go dead quiet when he explains how the Mavericks stopped LeBron James last year.

Here's the video:

SteBO
06-22-2012, 12:07 PM
I watched this as it was happening. I agreed with a lot of what Cuban said, but when he said nobody cares what Skip says, he was referring to the players. Fans without question care about Skip has to say because otherwise the show wouldn't as popular as it is. Other than that, Mark was dead on with everything.

nicegoing
06-22-2012, 12:08 PM
Would have liked to see him go on about how the Mavs stopped LeBron but it's pretty ridiculous that Skip thinks LeBron literally just stood on the court and played with no effort because of "the pressure."

Maybe someone can post the complete video if they can find it?

heyman321
06-22-2012, 12:09 PM
Well there's no doubt that Skip Bayless and Stephen A Smith understand that they're supposed to excrete **** from their mouths and deem it as analysis, cause that's what their job is. I'm sure they understand that have a "persona" to portray on TV. Just look at Stephen A when he's not doing commentary or his radio, he actually makes sense.

RC3
06-22-2012, 12:14 PM
Skip Bayless is God.

natelpete
06-22-2012, 12:14 PM
They're just shock jocks, they don't have a clue what they are saying half the time.. Good on you Mark

GoPacers33
06-22-2012, 12:15 PM
This happens almost everyday on this show with someone arguing with Skip intensely. I agree with Cuban. I hate it when my parents would say that the other team wanted it more when I played sports even though it wasn't as big of stage. It always pissed me off when they said that

MadBomber
06-22-2012, 12:19 PM
Skip is trash

BigBlueCrew
06-22-2012, 12:23 PM
I was waiting for this thread to be made on PSD as I knew it would be :facepalm:

He didn't destroy Skip. He was just being his brash self. I watched it live on First Take. Mark said some good thing but some ridiculous things as always.

When he said every guy wanted it equally, that was a total, cmon Mark really? and then Steven A Smith brought up Lamar Odom, that was a total low blow. Of course Lebron played differently in these Finals than he played in last years finals and of Cuban totally glosses over the subject.

But the best thing that Cuban says during his time there is how he points out how the NBA stat sheet is a total waste and doesnt tell the whole story.

DenButsu
06-22-2012, 12:23 PM
The real dividing line here is analysis vs commentary. If you track guys who really analyze the game (Sebastian Pruiti comes to mind), they tend to zoom in on the facts and avoid hyperbole.

BKLYNpigeon
06-22-2012, 12:25 PM
Skip Bayless is actually a Smart Sports reporter and Writer. all the stuff you guys watch on ESPN about him is all an ACT. he says dumb things to get a rise out of people. If he just reported the facts no one would care about or talk about him.

smith&wesson
06-22-2012, 12:27 PM
:clap:

skip bayless is an idiot.

DenButsu
06-22-2012, 12:27 PM
But the best thing that Cuban says during his time there is how he points out how the NBA stat sheet is a total waste and doesnt tell the whole story.

:laugh2:

NYflightboy
06-22-2012, 12:30 PM
Skip Bayless = Rihanna

At this point who hasn't destroyed that?

DenButsu
06-22-2012, 12:31 PM
Skip Bayless is actually a Smart Sports reporter and Writer. all the stuff you guys watch on ESPN about him is all an ACT. he says dumb things to get a rise out of people. If he just reported the facts no one would care about or talk about him.

So basically the best thing you can say for him is that he's dishonest, and condescending to his viewers. Awesome.

mikealike305
06-22-2012, 12:32 PM
skip baseless is pretty bad

-Kobe24-TJ19-
06-22-2012, 12:37 PM
I hate Cuban but dang he just raped Skip:laugh2:

NYY09
06-22-2012, 12:39 PM
Well that was just embarassing for Skip & Co. But in all actuality im not sure if Skip couldn't dissect basketball in those terms or he's playing to the crowd and being an "entertainer/ shock jock" cuz most people aren't sophisticated enough to understand half of what Cuban was saying....

Either way Cuban - 1 Bayless & Co. - 0

MadBomber
06-22-2012, 12:48 PM
Here's the extended version of the video....enjoy! I reiterate, Skip is garbage!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hv2jqFd2-qI

SluggeR
06-22-2012, 12:48 PM
I watched this as it was happening. I agreed with a lot of what Cuban said, but when he said nobody cares what Skip says, he was referring to the players. Fans without question care about Skip has to say because otherwise the show wouldn't as popular as it is. Other than that, Mark was dead on with everything.

skip is the reason I stopped watching the show.

Sadds The Gr8
06-22-2012, 12:50 PM
:clap:

skip bayless is an idiot.

:facepalm: he's the man

The goods
06-22-2012, 12:51 PM
Last time I checked nobody cares about mark Cuban I used to have respect for him and his love for the game but in reality he's just a whiny **** another Dan Gilbert that *****es when things are "unfair" in the nba, you know what's unfair? The fact that you can sit courtside and ***** at the refs everytime they don't hand you a game,and I can't. Lol
I like skip and Stephen their actually funny,when people like mark get on the show and get all serious they look pretty stupid because everyone knows first take is a funny joke and people take it to heart.

BigBlueCrew
06-22-2012, 12:51 PM
Here's the extended version of the video....enjoy! I reiterate, Skip is garbage!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hv2jqFd2-qI

that's still only a little bit of the entire interview

The goods
06-22-2012, 12:54 PM
I'm sorry you don't get credit for shutting skip bayless up, now if you can shut Stephen A. up then we'll talk.

Shareeb_omac2
06-22-2012, 12:54 PM
The one thing I always point to, is look at Skip Bayless's track record with making predicition. He's the most accurate on ESPN. He's very good at evaluating talent.

Skip is also an entertainer. The show has amazing ratings because you guys love to hate him and tune it. Of course he's going to play to that audience. But, he's a very smart guy when it comes to sports.

TheIlladelph16
06-22-2012, 12:57 PM
Last time I checked nobody cares about mark Cuban I used to have respect for him and his love for the game but in reality he's just a whiny **** another Dan Gilbert that *****es when things are "unfair" in the nba, you know what's unfair? The fact that you can sit courtside and ***** at the refs everytime they don't hand you a game,and I can't. Lol
I like skip and Stephen their actually funny,when people like mark get on the show and get all serious they look pretty stupid because everyone knows first take is a funny joke and people take it to heart.

Come on dude... He is a billionaire and the OWNER OF THE FREAKING TEAM. He can pretty much do whatever he wants within reason. I have more respect for Cuban than pretty much any other owner in all sports. Nobody goes to bat for their players more or shows more heart than this guy.

MadBomber
06-22-2012, 12:58 PM
I'm sorry you don't get credit for shutting skip bayless up, now if you can shut Stephen A. up then we'll talk.

http://www.businessinsider.com/mark-cuban-stephen-a-first-take-2012-6

jailedgiantsfan
06-22-2012, 01:12 PM
lmao did yall notice cubans shirt?? haha "i love happy endings"

MLB2K10King
06-22-2012, 01:28 PM
I agreed with a lot of the things that Cuban said, but to come on their show and disrespect them while trying to undermine their craft was a bit too much for me. He could of gotten his points across without being such a jerk

John Walls Era
06-22-2012, 01:31 PM
:facepalm: he's the man

This.

Gotta give Skip Bayless credit. He trolls the **** out of everyone, but his predictions are still more accurate than the other so called experts. He picked Tebow W/L, Spurs to win the West, Heat to beat the Thunder (off the top of my head).

John Walls Era
06-22-2012, 01:33 PM
I watched this as it was happening. I agreed with a lot of what Cuban said, but when he said nobody cares what Skip says, he was referring to the players. Fans without question care about Skip has to say because otherwise the show wouldn't as popular as it is. Other than that, Mark was dead on with everything.

No he wasn't. Obviously you don't know what you're talking about. Skip Bayless always uses facts. He just twists them to favor his side of the argument.

GiantsSwaGG
06-22-2012, 01:42 PM
Blasphemes!

John Walls Era
06-22-2012, 01:44 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hv2jqFd2-qI&list=UUiWLfSweyRNmLpgEHekhoAg&feature=plcp

Full video. I agree with Cuban's assessment of the game and how writers should go about, but I disagree on his opinions about Skip.

Oldmantrash
06-22-2012, 01:49 PM
A jerk debating a Moron

First take is a joke, I don't even think they believe what they are saying.

It's all for shock value.

I stopped watching that show a long time ago.

MiamiWadeCounty
06-22-2012, 01:54 PM
Skip Bayless got killed. At one point Cuban asked Skip what is the purpose of a zone defense. Skip had no clue and just sat there trying to go off topic.

SlimKid
06-22-2012, 03:38 PM
Two douche bags flapping at one another, yipeee!

JerseyPalahniuk
06-22-2012, 03:41 PM
This.

Gotta give Skip Bayless credit. He trolls the **** out of everyone, but his predictions are still more accurate than the other so called experts. He picked Tebow W/L, Spurs to win the West, Heat to beat the Thunder (off the top of my head).

What you don't notice is that these "expert opinions" he makes gives him so much leeway to be right with whatever happens. He bashes Lebron for YEARS. So if the Heat lose then he can go on and on about how the was right about Lebron not having the will to become a championship. If the Heat win, then he'll go on and on about how he predicted this all along. All his so-called "expert predictions" are nothing than a perfect example of hedging his bets

Bravo95
06-22-2012, 03:47 PM
His comments about putting people in position to succeed and the importance of hiring the right coach were fantastic.

popo85
06-22-2012, 03:47 PM
LMAO at the Skip/Rhianna comparison

SteBO
06-22-2012, 03:50 PM
No he wasn't. Obviously you don't know what you're talking about. Skip Bayless always uses facts. He just twists them to favor his side of the argument.
Hate to break it to you bud, but that makes it a half truth, which in reality doesn't make it direct "fact" in my opinion. But that will depend on how you view the truth. Everything at this point here is subjective, and that includes you.......

If you knew what you were talking about, you'd know that he generalizes a lot and while he does statistical facts, he never acknowledges the other side of the story. It's obvious in his views about Tebow and LeBron when you put it side by side. I believe that's what Mark Cuban meant......

koreancabbage
06-22-2012, 04:01 PM
I think the saying "how bad do you want it?" is totally legit. If you had the same Lebron last year like this year, that series would be much closer (game 7 maybe)


its basically what you are willing to do to get what you want- Lebron didn't do much last year.

and yes, u can def ask every player how bad you want it but noone will really know cuz its deep inside- something you can't explain. Are you willing to give up your first born to win a championship type of mentality or i'll show up at the arena and hope for the best.

there's definitely a measure of how much you want it.

ManRam
06-22-2012, 04:18 PM
It doesn't take much intelligence to "destroy" Skip Bayless.

There's a reason why ESPN only brings morons onto the show to "debate" him. If they brought anyone of any sort of intelligence it would be game over.

NoahH
06-22-2012, 05:56 PM
Skip Bayless = Rihanna

At this point who hasn't destroyed that?

:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

King41
06-22-2012, 06:36 PM
cuban for president

TopsyTurvy
06-22-2012, 06:46 PM
Total disclosure, Mark Cuban is a principal sponsor and supporter of the Sloan Sports Analytics Conference @ MIT and a huge proponent of advanced metrics. On top of that, he owns his own network that also covers sports. He is the anti-mothership in every regard - the metrics are hard to consume and his product is direct competition.

Skip Bayless being Skip Bayless. I like Cuban but he wasn't nearly as hostile or prepared as he needed to be to kick some meaningful ***. If Cuban came in with some of the infometrics Dallas regularly uses and compared that to Skip Bayless' 'expert analysis,' the argument would have been done before it even started.

The other problem with everything Cuban flaunts rests within the realm of probability. As an engineer with several years of applied statistical background (including taking classes to get an MS in it), I can tell you without a doubt that everything produced statistically can be skewed just as easily as Bayless 'misrepresents' facts.

topdog
06-22-2012, 07:14 PM
So basically the best thing you can say for him is that he's dishonest, and condescending to his viewers. Awesome.

1. He's an actor 2. He represents a certain level of basketball fandom 3. Is being a professional devil's advocate or the like being "dishonest?"

DenButsu
06-22-2012, 08:23 PM
1. He's an actor 2. He represents a certain level of basketball fandom 3. Is being a professional devil's advocate or the like being "dishonest?"

He's presenting himself as an expert basketball analyst.

If he's capable of presenting his viewers with better analysis, but deliberately chooses to lower that quality just to fabricate some kind of "devil's advocate" persona, then...

a) he's insulting the intelligence of serious basketball fans who already know better, ...

b) he's doing a disservice to the fans who actually could use better analysis to get a better education about the game, and ...

c) hell yes, he's being dishonest. I don't expect him to be *exactly* the same guy on television that he would be candidly in real life. I understand he needs to present himself in a certain way, use a certain voice, etc. that's conducive to entertaining television. But if the content of his analysis is really that far removed from - and worse than - what he'd be able to deliver if he was shooting straight, then yeah, he's not telling the truth about what he really thinks.



I'm not a huge fan of Mark Cuban or anything, but I really do appreciate the fact that he went in there and pulled back the curtain on their little sham to show how vacuous it really is.

Sssmush
06-22-2012, 08:52 PM
Mark Cuban does make some good points, from a very realist perspective.

People like SAS and Bayless do play a role though, in creating an emotional storyline for all of us yobs. It just is what it is.

There's two ways to look at it.... one way is in profesional bsketball technical terms, the other is in story lines, emotions, etc.

I myself have never liked the storyline about "effort" and "who wants it more", not only because it's not realistic, but because there is often a subtle racist byline to it, where the black athletes are usually "incredibly talented" and when they lose it is usually explained as them somehow being lazy, unmotivated, egotistical, uncoachable, etc, etc.

Whereas, the white athletes, such as Nash, Ginobili, etc, are always lauded as being huge overachievers who got there through every inch of hard work, grit and determination, and win with supreme coachability, humility, and basketball IQ. etc

There are few things more downright dorkish than sportsfans who spew out this kind of ****, especially ones who talk about how great certain coaches are, and how athlethes need to "work harder" and "get with the system" and complain complain, like they think they are coaches or somehow connected with athletics, like DeNiro in "The Fan" or something.

The first step to appreciating pro sports is to understand what a high level these athletes are on, and to appreciate them. Those with no athletic experience (ahem, SAS, SB) often have no real understanding of the vast gap between pro athletes and normal people, or how incredibly hard those guys work for their entire lives.

Like you come home from an 8 hr job at the post office, and ***** about how Lebron or Durant are lazy or didn't try or didn't work hard enough. Get the **** out. They've been in the gym or doing conditioning for 10-12 hours a day since they were in junior high, and most people would pass out or barf within two minutes of doing what they do.

ChiSportsDaily
06-22-2012, 09:08 PM
Well that was just embarassing for Skip & Co. But in all actuality im not sure if Skip couldn't dissect basketball in those terms or he's playing to the crowd and being an "entertainer/ shock jock" cuz most people aren't sophisticated enough to understand half of what Cuban was saying....

Either way Cuban - 1 Bayless & Co. - 0

True, but the difference is the average fan isn't expected to understand everything Cuban was talking about. Skip Bayless, as a basketball analyst, who holds himself out as an expert, is supposed to. Horrible... couldn't directly answer a single one of Cuban's questions.

BHF
06-22-2012, 09:09 PM
its a shame that Skip Bayless and Stephen A Smith 2 goofs have jobs over people who actually know basketball

Sssmush
06-22-2012, 09:16 PM
its a shame that Skip Bayless and Stephen A Smith 2 goofs have jobs over people who actually know basketball

I actually somewhat like SAS and Bayless, I think they inject a lot of emotion and their commentary and segments are fun and entertaining.

In general, I think there could actually be much, much more NBA news, coverage, commentary and analysis on ESPN. For as much resources as they got, and the two 24 hour channels, the amount of actual NBA coverage they give you is pretty sparse.

BHF
06-22-2012, 09:22 PM
I actually somewhat like SAS and Bayless, I think they inject a lot of emotion and their commentary and segments are fun and entertaining.

In general, I think there could actually be much, much more NBA news, coverage, commentary and analysis on ESPN. For as much resources as they got, and the two 24 hour channels, the amount of actual NBA coverage they give you is pretty sparse.

its fake emotion everything about SAS is fake and the reason i dislike him, they say stupid things just to get the ratings up that's all it is

ChiSportsDaily
06-22-2012, 09:23 PM
\I myself have never liked the storyline about "effort" and "who wants it more", not only because it's not realistic

Yep, otherwise championship teams would hypothetically always be composed of the "scrappy" players. Talent wins out over effort, especially in the playoffs. Regular season, yeah, maybe some guys don't try as hard. All the talk of teams kicking it into a second gear for the playoffs? That's the full effort and the scrappy teams don't have that second gear. Sucks, cause the Bulls are mostly one of those teams.

h2r09
06-22-2012, 09:25 PM
he basically exposed him. skip doesnt and never has had any substance to his opinions.

WickedBadMan
06-22-2012, 10:15 PM
Meh, I think Cuban sounded more prepared and laid his arguments out better, but that doesn't shock me as he is a brilliant dude. But in reality, he didn't "own" Skip in my eyes, he just beat him in his own game.

Mark is the same as Skip in that any time one of his points is questioned his argument shifts or the question is deflected. Mark says, "Every player gives it their all on the court, no one wants it more than someone else." Then Lamar is brought up as an example, "Well were talking about the finals." Were you Mark? Personally I think it's improbable that Eddy Curry wanted that championship as badly as Lebron, and would have done as much as he did - whether it be practice, maintaining stamina/health etc. - to get it.

I think there is a place for analyzing a players mindset, Hell, Lebron pretty much admitted he was pressing in the last finals.

And for Cuban to say they don't care what he says is true and false. True in that Skip often thinks what he says influences how a player plays which is insane. False in that some obviously do watch the show, players come on, Bosh came on to argue with Skip even.

All in all it just came down to Cuban doing a better job on presenting his side of the issue, he wasn't necessarily completely correct.

Glen20
06-22-2012, 10:17 PM
he basically exposed him. skip doesnt and never has had any substance to his opinions.

its obvious he fakes it
of course they know what Cuban is talking about

JC_
06-22-2012, 10:25 PM
Skip is like an uglier version of Paris Hilton

b-ballistic
06-22-2012, 10:30 PM
I think Mark Cuban made himself look like a complete idiot! It's like trying to tell the Three Stooges they're stupid and an insult to the acting profession.

No one has to "point out" that Skip and Steve don't really use facts and statistics as a basis for their analysis. Anyone can see that after two or three shows.

Cuban just showed why he fits right in with these guys and...........he'll be back on the show soon.....I'm sure

fadedmario
06-22-2012, 10:32 PM
Cuban ended Skip's career.

JC_
06-22-2012, 10:32 PM
I think the saying "how bad do you want it?" is totally legit. If you had the same Lebron last year like this year, that series would be much closer (game 7 maybe)


its basically what you are willing to do to get what you want- Lebron didn't do much last year.

and yes, u can def ask every player how bad you want it but noone will really know cuz its deep inside- something you can't explain. Are you willing to give up your first born to win a championship type of mentality or i'll show up at the arena and hope for the best.

there's definitely a measure of how much you want it.

I actually agree with this. Some younger guys don't know how to recognize certain moments when they meet them. We saw the difference in mentality between the Heat and Thunder. The Heat recognized the moment and played do or die. Thunder saw something they had never seen and said "wow, so this is the NBA finals"

b-ballistic
06-22-2012, 10:37 PM
Cuban ended Skip's career.

:laugh:

Go Bulls!!!!!
06-22-2012, 10:42 PM
Skip does what he does to get paid. The least he can do is to admit when his wrong and not stay behind his lies every time, but then again if that was my job i'll be doing the same damn thing. It's hard to keep a job these days.

fadedmario
06-22-2012, 10:42 PM
Skip is a ****ing joke now. Cuban owned him. Actor or not - he got so embarrassed it was uncomfortable to watch.

Go Bulls!!!!!
06-22-2012, 10:47 PM
Skip Bayless must be related to John C. McGinley. Also just found out that his from OKC, he has no respect.

KW93KB24
06-22-2012, 10:48 PM
i hate skip bayless, but i hate mark cuban a lot more. He's the biggest douce bag i have ever seen. I literally want to clock him in the face one time.

b-ballistic
06-22-2012, 11:00 PM
Skip is a ****ing joke now. Cuban owned him. Actor or not - he got so embarrassed it was uncomfortable to watch.

He wasn't a joke before this interview? :laugh:

You guys are funny!

Sssmush
06-23-2012, 12:18 AM
I actually agree with this. Some younger guys don't know how to recognize certain moments when they meet them. We saw the difference in mentality between the Heat and Thunder. The Heat recognized the moment and played do or die. Thunder saw something they had never seen and said "wow, so this is the NBA finals"

I somewhat disagree. OKC just suffered a really, really tough defeat and *** kicking. If anything, they were squeezing too tight, trying too hard, and that led to their shots not dropping, otherwise there would be another game tomorrow.

Sssmush
06-23-2012, 12:25 AM
Meh, I think Cuban sounded more prepared and laid his arguments out better, but that doesn't shock me as he is a brilliant dude. But in reality, he didn't "own" Skip in my eyes, he just beat him in his own game.

Mark is the same as Skip in that any time one of his points is questioned his argument shifts or the question is deflected. Mark says, "Every player gives it their all on the court, no one wants it more than someone else." Then Lamar is brought up as an example, "Well were talking about the finals." Were you Mark? Personally I think it's improbable that Eddy Curry wanted that championship as badly as Lebron, and would have done as much as he did - whether it be practice, maintaining stamina/health etc. - to get it.

I think there is a place for analyzing a players mindset, Hell, Lebron pretty much admitted he was pressing in the last finals.

And for Cuban to say they don't care what he says is true and false. True in that Skip often thinks what he says influences how a player plays which is insane. False in that some obviously do watch the show, players come on, Bosh came on to argue with Skip even.

All in all it just came down to Cuban doing a better job on presenting his side of the issue, he wasn't necessarily completely correct.

Yes, well said. Cuban does in fact make some really good points, but then again from another perspective he is just tearing the masks off the actors on the stage, and saying "see, it's not real, it's just a show!" and using his insider knowledge of professional basketball to say that the stories SAS and SB create are frivolous and stupid.

I liked when SB said "my show is all about facts" and then Cuban said "what? 'intense effort' and 'do or die enthusiasm' etc, those are facts?" and then SB tried to counter but again found himself talking in emotional cartoon language. That was great.

SB and SAS know, however, just like the networks know, that there has to be this human angle, this human drama, even if it is sometimes made up. It can't just be like a reality show, where there just all robots and they don't have personalities. People have to feel the drama of it, they need villains, heroes, winners, losers. Other wise like Chick Hearns once said, it's just some guys in short pants with a ball.

Anyways, 6-22-2012: Lebron is a huge hero, Tom Brady has lost two superbowls, Jerry Jones is the best owner in the NFL, Kobe is an underdog, Barkley is the best to never win a title, Steve Nash will tutor Jeremy Lin, Tim Duncan is the best citizen in the NBA, Oden is the biggest bust in history, Durant has to rebuild his confidence, and Jerry Sandusky is a world famous pedophile.

Losoway
06-23-2012, 12:34 AM
lmao i seen this when it aired....skip bayless look like he wanted to cry

Chris broussard killed skip last week too

Kyben36
06-23-2012, 01:00 AM
this was absolutly amazing and I credit cuban for standing up for what right, fact is everyone talks about how players played down but never give credit when a team plays good defense.

BrickCity
06-23-2012, 01:29 AM
Haha Skip looks like freaking idiot. Ownage:cool:

gotoHcarolina52
06-23-2012, 01:53 AM
Bayless is irrelevant in my world. I don't watch that farce.

Young2Kinsler
06-23-2012, 02:01 AM
My favorite thing that Mark said, and I see as a shot at ESPN in general, is that the sports networks, especially ESPN have gotten away from talking about the facts and actually breaking down games. Instead of discussing using man on man vs a zone defense, rather than just some general ****** line of "blank played harder, or blank wanted it more". That kind of talk is just dribble that I need not listen to.

I myself don't watch ESPN, period. I think they have very little to offer in terms of actual sports knowledge. Sure some of the guys there know the sport, but they just all fall into this " I work at ESPN so I can say all the pointless, dumbass **** I want" mentality.

People who hate Cuban baffle me. The guy speaks his mind, most of the time speaks the truth, is a great ambassador for the game of basketball, and one of the best owners in sports.

Young2Kinsler
06-23-2012, 02:03 AM
And my GOD Bayless is still sticking to his ****** ideas in the last seconds of the video....

" You didn't have to defend LeBron, he just stood around on purpose"

Complete jackoff

The X
06-23-2012, 10:42 AM
Mark Cuban won that argument because he wanted it more

He also "destroyed" Smith: http://www.businessinsider.com/mark-cuban-stephen-a-first-take-2012-6

yaswaggin
06-23-2012, 10:46 AM
My favorite thing that Mark said, and I see as a shot at ESPN in general, is that the sports networks, especially ESPN have gotten away from talking about the facts and actually breaking down games. Instead of discussing using man on man vs a zone defense, rather than just some general ****** line of "blank played harder, or blank wanted it more". That kind of talk is just dribble that I need not listen to.

I myself don't watch ESPN, period. I think they have very little to offer in terms of actual sports knowledge. Sure some of the guys there know the sport, but they just all fall into this " I work at ESPN so I can say all the pointless, dumbass **** I want" mentality.

People who hate Cuban baffle me. The guy speaks his mind, most of the time speaks the truth, is a great ambassador for the game of basketball, and one of the best owners in sports.

I like Cuban a lot and thought he won this argument on 1st take, but he was being very rude on set.

Gained and lost respect for him at the same time

Sssmush
06-23-2012, 04:40 PM
My favorite thing that Mark said, and I see as a shot at ESPN in general, is that the sports networks, especially ESPN have gotten away from talking about the facts and actually breaking down games. Instead of discussing using man on man vs a zone defense, rather than just some general ****** line of "blank played harder, or blank wanted it more". That kind of talk is just dribble that I need not listen to.

I myself don't watch ESPN, period. I think they have very little to offer in terms of actual sports knowledge. Sure some of the guys there know the sport, but they just all fall into this " I work at ESPN so I can say all the pointless, dumbass **** I want" mentality.

People who hate Cuban baffle me. The guy speaks his mind, most of the time speaks the truth, is a great ambassador for the game of basketball, and one of the best owners in sports.

I've always kind of liked Cuban, I like his style and the sense of fun around him and the Mavericks. Lately, though, I feel like he's jumped the shark. I really think his time would be best used elsewhere than trying to be a mover and shaker of the NBA.

What I noticed, is that during all the heavy duty controversy about the refereeing, when Cuban was openly feuding with Stern on a game to game basis over the officiating, and completely melted down during the first Miami/Dallas Finals, before the Donaghy revelations, was that afterward, he seemed to become totally cynical about the officiating. He seemed to be saying, not "make the officiating fair" but rather "gimme some of that rigged officiating, we've got stars, we've been around, we're team players, we've earned it." And then of course Dallas won a title on the back of some very shady officiating, when Dirk suddenly became the magic man who if you touched him or came near him it was an automatic foul (most championship teams have such a player).

And Cuban didn't make any objective comments about the weirdness of the officiating, multiple 20 or 30 FT differentials against the Lakers, etc. The attitude was just more like "it's our turn now." So that reduces credibility right there... he's no longer the objective outsider, he's part of the club now.

Then, of course, all the crap with the labor strike, and the underhanded tactics to mess up the league with crazy luxury taxes and revenue sharing, and then the reported whining to Stern to veto the Lakers CP3 deal.

Anyway, ultimately Bayless is correct to some degree in what he is saying. Even though Cuban won the argument, still, even at the highest levels of professional competition, it does in fact come down to a battle between two guys--who is ultimately tougher, more skilled, etc and questions of character such as "who wants it more" CAN make a big difference in the crucial moments. Of course, who is cooler under pressure or who doesn't care as much can also win games in a sport like BBall, where sometimes it is coolness and calmness that wins the game, the ice water in the veins Kobe and that kind of thing. "trying harder" and "wanting it more" doesn't increase that, it reduces it.

Havoc Wreaker
06-23-2012, 08:00 PM
The last 40 seconds is complete ownage

LOOTERX9
06-23-2012, 08:04 PM
But Skip was right bout lebron last years finals though

ink
06-23-2012, 08:14 PM
Don't even bother reading the setup article below. Just click the link and go straight to the video.

http://www.businessinsider.com/mark-cuban-first-take-2012-6

Probably hundreds of threads and thousands of comments have been posted here at PSD about how bad the sports media is. Cuban just did it better than any of us in these five minutes.

My only question.... WHERE'S PART 2 OF THIS VIDEO?!?

That is brilliant stuff by Cuban. He absolutely levels all the cliches about "not wanting it as much" or "he disappeared in the 4th quarter" that we have to gag on in the media and on sports forums all the time. I absolutely loved the comment Cuban made when Bayless said "that's all I saw" and MC said "exactly right, that's ALL YOU SAW". So true of the dialogue about the game. I wish more analysts would break down plays and acknowledge what the other team is doing to counter the stars that get shut down. The insight into the game would be phenomenal.

ink
06-23-2012, 08:18 PM
Anyway, ultimately Bayless is correct to some degree in what he is saying. Even though Cuban won the argument, still, even at the highest levels of professional competition, it does in fact come down to a battle between two guys--who is ultimately tougher, more skilled, etc and questions of character such as "who wants it more" CAN make a big difference in the crucial moments.

Cuban easily brushed those comments away, saying it was a team game and it is an insult to the team that makes the strategic adjustments to shut down the opposing player. It has NOTHING to do with who wants it more. These are professionals and they ALL play at an elite level. The difference is always in execution, and basic talent. Even when the underdog Pistons beat the heavily favoured Lakers in 2004 it was because the Pistons execution was superior.

HesterJordan23
06-23-2012, 08:23 PM
cuban is more right then skip but skip[ is right about lebron not having the mentality factor... but skip gives no credit to the mavs for what they did... last years mavs vs this years heat i would still take the mavs.. the mavs had everyone and anyone on that team going and doing what they had to do.. it wasnt just the heat of lebron wanting to redeem his critics and finally get that ring the actual whole mavericks team had that passion you could see it... you have to discredit mark for low balling but if your gonna ask him to come on your show then you get what you ask for..

and no im not discrediting the heat but chalmers miller and battier plus lbj dwade and bosh against basically the whole mavs team is quite a difference.. the mavs last year was an unbelievable squad

Sssmush
06-23-2012, 09:23 PM
Cuban easily brushed those comments away, saying it was a team game and it is an insult to the team that makes the strategic adjustments to shut down the opposing player. It has NOTHING to do with who wants it more. These are professionals and they ALL play at an elite level. The difference is always in execution, and basic talent. Even when the underdog Pistons beat the heavily favoured Lakers in 2004 it was because the Pistons execution was superior.

See, the funny thing about sports is that there IS this human element to sports, even at the highest level.

Cuban isn't wrong, but in a way he's equally myopic to Skip if he denies the human element, the "drama of human competition" etc. You can't just abstract sports out into defensive schemes, adjustments, x's and o's, strategy, etc. Like, it wasn't the brilliance of Rick Carlisle that won the title for Dallas, it was mostly because of the awesomeness of Nowitzki and that little hamburgler guy who plays guard for them.

No matter how technical and organized and coordinated teams are, it is very often those special individual players like Kobe, Jordan, etc who are able to defeat the very good teams, and to confound the great egotistical coaches. Look at how many times Larry Brown and Jerry Sloan had their ***es handed to them by players like Kobe or Jordan. Popovich is great, and like a thousand times superior to Carlisle, but he had freakin' Tim Duncan all these years, who is a monster.

So, you can't just say it's all "adjustments" and that all the players are just robots who all try equally hard. There is always an emotional showdown factor; although, as I mentioned, it is often about who is "cooler" and can perform under pressure, more than about who just tries super hard. Like Patrick Ewing tried super hard, sprinting all around the court and jumping and grunting, but when it came down to the crucial platinum "Kobe" moments, Ewing always lost. So effort only gets you so far...

Sssmush
06-23-2012, 09:28 PM
Like, look at it this way: if you pit Floyd Mayweather against some scrub fighter, than Mayweather will easily defeat him with sheer technique and ability.

But, if you put Mayweather in against a fighter who is his equal in every way, then eventually the fight comes down to a schoolyard brawl in the last 15 seconds of the last round, or to who can get up off the canvas with a broken nose and fearlessly go toe to toe and score a knockout.

Those things can't be taught or coached or measured in stats, and that is part of what makes sports so interesting.

ink
06-23-2012, 10:12 PM
See, the funny thing about sports is that there IS this human element to sports, even at the highest level.

Cuban isn't wrong, but in a way he's equally myopic to Skip if he denies the human element, the "drama of human competition" etc. You can't just abstract sports out into defensive schemes, adjustments, x's and o's, strategy, etc. Like, it wasn't the brilliance of Rick Carlisle that won the title for Dallas, it was mostly because of the awesomeness of Nowitzki and that little hamburgler guy who plays guard for them.

No matter how technical and organized and coordinated teams are, it is very often those special individual players like Kobe, Jordan, etc who are able to defeat the very good teams, and to confound the great egotistical coaches. Look at how many times Larry Brown and Jerry Sloan had their ***es handed to them by players like Kobe or Jordan. Popovich is great, and like a thousand times superior to Carlisle, but he had freakin' Tim Duncan all these years, who is a monster.

So, you can't just say it's all "adjustments" and that all the players are just robots who all try equally hard. There is always an emotional showdown factor; although, as I mentioned, it is often about who is "cooler" and can perform under pressure, more than about who just tries super hard. Like Patrick Ewing tried super hard, sprinting all around the court and jumping and grunting, but when it came down to the crucial platinum "Kobe" moments, Ewing always lost. So effort only gets you so far...

No doubt there's a human element. The problem is that's ALL WE GET with so much of the media -- generalizations like "he's clutch", "he disappears in the 4th", "he chokes", "he put the team on his back", etc. I seriously get the dumb chills when I read that stuff all the time. I actually signed up on PSD at one time hoping to read more about plays that are run than generalizations or statistics that can be manipulated in any direction a person wants. I'm much more interested in learning about the game than quasi-assessments of human nature by hacks like Skip Bayless. Basically I find his type of journalism extremely lazy and shallow. Why can't we get journalists that love the game and want to openly discuss the plays, not just the players?

Sssmush
06-23-2012, 10:43 PM
No doubt there's a human element. The problem is that's ALL WE GET with so much of the media -- generalizations like "he's clutch", "he disappears in the 4th", "he chokes", "he put the team on his back", etc. I seriously get the dumb chills when I read that stuff all the time. I actually signed up on PSD at one time hoping to read more about plays that are run than generalizations or statistics that can be manipulated in any direction a person wants. I'm much more interested in learning about the game than quasi-assessments of human nature by hacks like Skip Bayless. Basically I find his type of journalism extremely lazy and shallow. Why can't we get journalists that love the game and want to openly discuss the plays, not just the players?

I'd agree with that somewhat. There should be both kinds of coverage, and these cartoonish assessments shouldn't be the bulk of of what the media spews out there.

When I've had occasion to run with college players in pickup games, I'm always amazed at how intense their technique and their defense is, and at how much I totally don't know about the game.

It's fine to inject some human drama into the game coverage, that is awesome. But what irks me about sas and sb and some others sometimes is the way they come down so hard on players, the "like this is RIDICULOUS. They are paying this guy ten million dollars and blah blah blah" like they really bash the **** out some of these guys, like the players are lazy moronic *******s or something.

And god forbid if you miss a practice, or make a comment about your coach, or flip off a fan in the stands or something, because you'll be hearing about what an ungrateful selfish lazy ball-hogging no-ring-having jerk-off failure disgrace of a pro athlete you are for the next 10 years.

FlakeyFool
06-23-2012, 10:46 PM
Mark Cuban is a very intelligent man

DragonJaii
06-23-2012, 10:46 PM
That was pure ownage

ink
06-23-2012, 10:59 PM
I'd agree with that somewhat. There should be both kinds of coverage, and these cartoonish assessments shouldn't be the bulk of of what the media spews out there.

When I've had occasion to run with college players in pickup games, I'm always amazed at how intense their technique and their defense is, and at how much I totally don't know about the game.

It's fine to inject some human drama into the game coverage, that is awesome. But what irks me about sas and sb and some others sometimes is the way they come down so hard on players, the "like this is RIDICULOUS. They are paying this guy ten million dollars and blah blah blah" like they really bash the **** out some of these guys, like the players are lazy moronic *******s or something.

And god forbid if you miss a practice, or make a comment about your coach, or flip off a fan in the stands or something, because you'll be hearing about what an ungrateful selfish lazy ball-hogging no-ring-having jerk-off failure disgrace of a pro athlete you are for the next 10 years.

The bolded is what pisses me off too. Problem is these are now common beliefs about athletes and we can't ever seem to get back on topic, talking about the game. I'm tired of the soap opera coverage and ONLY looking at the human element. I think either the media doesn't know a damn thing about the game itself, or they grossly underestimate what fans can understand. The "he disappears in the 4th quarter" school of journalism that is everywhere is moronic. I'd love to see more NBA pros expose the stupidity of journalists like Bayless, but I also want to point out that Bayless is not alone in his cliches. They're everywhere. Thanks to Cuban for owning him like that.

kenzo400
06-23-2012, 11:06 PM
Well there's no doubt that Skip Bayless and Stephen A Smith understand that they're supposed to excrete **** from their mouths and deem it as analysis, cause that's what their job is. I'm sure they understand that have a "persona" to portray on TV. Just look at Stephen A when he's not doing commentary or his radio, he actually makes sense.

+1 and obviously they cannot say that. But it's clear that many people watching don't want to hear stats for half an hour. They want these generalities because they make it sound more dramatic. Will he or wont he fold under the pressure!?

I think Cuban is right that simplifying this really doesn't do justice because it ignores the opposing teams effort. However, i think anyone with a rational mind can see the same thing. It's like a person complaining that hollywood doesn't do justice to real film making. Well no **** lol

kenzo400
06-23-2012, 11:08 PM
I was waiting for this thread to be made on PSD as I knew it would be :facepalm:

He didn't destroy Skip. He was just being his brash self. I watched it live on First Take. Mark said some good thing but some ridiculous things as always.

When he said every guy wanted it equally, that was a total, cmon Mark really? and then Steven A Smith brought up Lamar Odom, that was a total low blow. Of course Lebron played differently in these Finals than he played in last years finals and of Cuban totally glosses over the subject.

But the best thing that Cuban says during his time there is how he points out how the NBA stat sheet is a total waste and doesnt tell the whole story.

It's easy to point to Odom not wanting it more because he made that blatantly obvious! He might as well have said that exact same thing in his own words. He fought with the coach/Cuban, missed practices, requested trade etc.. Lebron simply didn't succeed as early as people thought he would. I find the whole thing kind of funny. The mainstream media crowns Lebron the best player in the NBA and at the same time from the mainstream media we have guys like Skip saying "look he folds under pressure, he is not the best player!"

ink
06-23-2012, 11:12 PM
+1 and obviously they cannot say that. But it's clear that many people watching don't want to hear stats for half an hour. They want these generalities because they make it sound more dramatic. Will he or wont he fold under the pressure!?

I think Cuban is right that simplifying this really doesn't do justice because it ignores the opposing teams effort. However, i think anyone with a rational mind can see the same thing. It's like a person complaining that hollywood doesn't do justice to real film making. Well no **** lol

If fans are seeing more than the cliches the majority are not posting it on the internet. lol.

ink
06-23-2012, 11:14 PM
It's easy to point to Odom not wanting it more because he made that blatantly obvious! He might as well have said that exact same thing in his own words. He fought with the coach/Cuban, missed practices, requested trade etc.. Lebron simply didn't succeed as early as people thought he would. I find the whole thing kind of funny. The mainstream media crowns Lebron the best player in the NBA and at the same time from the mainstream media we have guys like Skip saying "look he folds under pressure, he is not the best player!"

Yeah Odom is a ludicrous example. Cuban was talking about opposing players in an NBA finals. EVERY ONE of those players is fully committed to winning. The situation with Odom is in the regular season after a ****ed up trade that left the player shell-shocked. Stupid comparison on SAS' part but what else is new. He's a master of stupid observations.

kenzo400
06-23-2012, 11:15 PM
If fans are seeing more than the cliches the majority are not posting it on the internet. lol.

Lol, true but i never said most fans are rational.


Yeah Odom is a ludicrous example. Cuban was talking about opposing players in an NBA finals. EVERY ONE of those players is fully committed to winning. The situation with Odom is in the regular season after a ****ed up trade that left the player shell-shocked. Stupid comparison on SAS' part but what else is new. He's a master of stupid observations.

Yeah, and i love the way Steven A Smith tries to justify Baylesses idiotic rants, saying oh "we have insiders" Yeah, sure but that doesn't mean they don't randomly spew nonsense simply to get viewership. He's trying to act like because they have some inside information that many fans might not be aware of, that means that their rants are informative lol

Sssmush
06-23-2012, 11:26 PM
The bolded is what pisses me off too. Problem is these are now common beliefs about athletes and we can't ever seem to get back on topic, talking about the game. I'm tired of the soap opera coverage and ONLY looking at the human element. I think either the media doesn't know a damn thing about the game itself, or they grossly underestimate what fans can understand. The "he disappears in the 4th quarter" school of journalism that is everywhere is moronic. I'd love to see more NBA pros expose the stupidity of journalists like Bayless, but I also want to point out that Bayless is not alone in his cliches. They're everywhere. Thanks to Cuban for owning him like that.

of course, just to play devil's advocate for a second, the games do, for whatever reason, lend themselves to these cartoonish interpretations.

Like, tight game, Finals, whatever, all of sudden Harden misses 7 shots in a row and turns it over 3 times. Or Brett Farvre throws the key interception. Or whatever. There is this overwhelming temptation to frame it emotionally. Guys like SAS and SB just went the whole way with it, and just create this frantic cartoon world where every strikeout or missed defensive assignment goes straight to character or whatever.

it's kind of interesting actually, this makes me want to watch more sas and bayless for some reason.

SportsAndrew25
06-23-2012, 11:31 PM
Mark Cuban is a BO$$.

ink
06-23-2012, 11:32 PM
of course, just to play devil's advocate for a second, the games do, for whatever reason, lend themselves to these cartoonish interpretations.

Like, tight game, Finals, whatever, all of sudden Harden misses 7 shots in a row and turns it over 3 times. Or Brett Farvre throws the key interception. Or whatever. There is this overwhelming temptation to frame it emotionally. Guys like SAS and SB just went the whole way with it, and just create this frantic cartoon world where every strikeout or missed defensive assignment goes straight to character or whatever.

it's kind of interesting actually, this makes me want to watch more sas and bayless for some reason.

Well put. But I'm tired of the cartoon. Sure it drives up interest -- i.e. the bogus line about whether Lebron is going to choke in the finals again or not -- but it doesn't improve the basketball. It's too simplistic. What true ball fan needs the cartoon subplot to enjoy the Heat vs OKC or OKC vs the Spurs? Those were two of the best matchups we've seen in years (even if the finals wasn't quite as competitive as I'd hoped it would be).

ManRam
06-23-2012, 11:38 PM
Bayless is a disgrace to sports journalism as a whole. He is purposefully disingenuous. He says things to get ratings, rather than to inform. He's a joke. And the 700,000+ people that follow him and feed the machine are a joke too.

StinkEye
06-23-2012, 11:55 PM
This discussion is great. Some of you smart guys are a breath of fresh air compared to some of the idiots who i read discussing basketball on Facebook (who know nothing and play into cliche and media drama.)

Fly
06-23-2012, 11:57 PM
everyone hates Bayless

marj987
06-24-2012, 05:41 AM
Skip is a tool, you know that tool your dad kept in the garage that he never really had any use for?

Every time I hear him talk I hear fart noises.

naps
06-24-2012, 06:08 AM
If you guys think Bayless actually believes what he says most of the time then you fall in that ESPN "My population (fools)" category.

It's all made up. They do it every single day for a reason. Because fools believe it and both fools and non-fools watch it. So it's a great business move by ESPN. A guy can't be that dumb as Skip appears to be. He's a very good actor.

stipe1280
06-24-2012, 09:49 PM
If you guys think Bayless actually believes what he says most of the time then you fall in that ESPN "My population (fools)" category.

Agreed. It's all made up. They do it every single day for a reason. Because fools believe it and both fools and non-fools watch it. So it's a great business move by ESPN. A guy can't be that dumb as Skip appears to be. He's a very good actor.

ESPN has made a business out of these kind of guys. It's almost as if ESPN has instructed these people to be loud and create drama over providing real, factual content.

I mean, Colin Cowherd and Mel Kiper, Jr. are no different from Bayliss. Flip on Around the Horn and you find perhaps the biggest idiot in Woody Paige, spouting off opinions and ignoring stats/facts/anything of value. Then, you get the loudmouth, all-out annoying guys like Stephen A., Chris Berman, and Merrill Hoge. Frankly, there's not many ESPN guys who bother to give any good insight anymore.

It's why I rarely turn on the network anymore. I'll take Dan Patrick's radio/TV show and Fox Sports over those blowhards at "the mothership" anyday.

Sssmush
06-25-2012, 02:04 AM
If you guys think Bayless actually believes what he says most of the time then you fall in that ESPN "My population (fools)" category.

It's all made up. They do it every single day for a reason. Because fools believe it and both fools and non-fools watch it. So it's a great business move by ESPN. A guy can't be that dumb as Skip appears to be. He's a very good actor.

yeah, I don't know where I saw this, what show it was on, some documentary or interview if I recall, but one or two radio talk show guys were talking about their job (I don't remember if it was sports or politics, I think sports it was).

Anyhow, they plainly stated that one guy gets on one side of the issue, and the other guy gets on the other side, and they kind of get the argument/discussion going on purpose. When I watch or listen to a sports radio or politics radio show now I can clearly see it all the time.

For instance, one guy will come out and say "Lebron is perhaps the greatest pure basketball player we have ever had in the NBA... etc...etc."

Then the other guy comes on and starts saying "Lebron WOULD be great, but he does this that and the other thing, and that is why he will never be as great as he could, and is the most hated athlete in sports today.... etc... etc."

And they just go on like that, people call in, people email, they tweet, the Internet is going crazy. Good times.

It's just what they do. They know what they're going to say before they go on air, and they know what the other guy is going to say also. Cuban tried to switch it up and get behind the game and ambush Bayless, but he just ends up being yet another discussion thread himself.

Only guys like Jerry West, Phil Jackson, Popovich etc are really above the game, because they're not trying to make a point or score with the twittrverse. The media comes to them and asks them for information and they just give them a few breadcrumbs or whatever.

Like Phil Jackson makes headlines for saying that Lebron is a great player, because people WANT to know what Phil Jackson thinks, and he certainly doesn't have to debate Skip Bayless or Stephen A. Smith about it or about anything else.

b-ballistic
06-25-2012, 08:06 AM
yeah, I don't know where I saw this, what show it was on, some documentary or interview if I recall, but one or two radio talk show guys were talking about their job (I don't remember if it was sports or politics, I think sports it was).

Anyhow, they plainly stated that one guy gets on one side of the issue, and the other guy gets on the other side, and they kind of get the argument/discussion going on purpose. When I watch or listen to a sports radio or politics radio show now I can clearly see it all the time.

For instance, one guy will come out and say "Lebron is perhaps the greatest pure basketball player we have ever had in the NBA... etc...etc."

Then the other guy comes on and starts saying "Lebron WOULD be great, but he does this that and the other thing, and that is why he will never be as great as he could, and is the most hated athlete in sports today.... etc... etc."

And they just go on like that, people call in, people email, they tweet, the Internet is going crazy. Good times.

It's just what they do. They know what they're going to say before they go on air, and they know what the other guy is going to say also. Cuban tried to switch it up and get behind the game and ambush Bayless, but he just ends up being yet another discussion thread himself.

Only guys like Jerry West, Phil Jackson, Popovich etc are really above the game, because they're not trying to make a point or score with the twittrverse. The media comes to them and asks them for information and they just give them a few breadcrumbs or whatever.

Like Phil Jackson makes headlines for saying that Lebron is a great player, because people WANT to know what Phil Jackson thinks, and he certainly doesn't have to debate Skip Bayless or Stephen A. Smith about it or about anything else.

Yeah, this was one of my first thoughts after seeing this interview. Could you imagine what Phil would say in response to anything Skip would have to say? He would just be laughing and joking around and making fun of him.

But Cuban, showing why he's such a ******, actually takes the opportunity to "slam" them and in turn.....looks just as bad (if not worse than those guys).

congrats Mark.....you did it!

kubernetes
06-26-2012, 04:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sssmush
\I myself have never liked the storyline about "effort" and "who wants it more", not only because it's not realistic


Yep, otherwise championship teams would hypothetically always be composed of the "scrappy" players. Talent wins out over effort, especially in the playoffs.

It's the Hollywoodification of everything. I knew we were in trouble when I saw a movie a few years back about a kid who played in chess tournaments. His coach/instructor was telling him to 'reach deep inside' or 'play with heart' or some bs. In chess!

Does 'wanting it more' make a difference? Probably, in the sense that it means you don't give up. But not giving up is not the same as winning. By the time pro athletes get to a final, they've gone through that a number of times. Do you think anyone got there and thought "Well, I guess I just don't want it that bad. Maybe #2 is okay for now"?

SACNYY
06-26-2012, 04:59 PM
I hate First Take. They sit around for 2 hours talking about Lebron and Tebow. That's it. They NEVER talk about anything else. It's ridiculous. A couple years ago they actually talked about the MLB. Now it's Lebron this, Tebow that. It's a complete joke.

StinkEye
06-26-2012, 05:11 PM
It's the Hollywoodification of everything. I knew we were in trouble when I saw a movie a few years back about a kid who played in chess tournaments. His coach/instructor was telling him to 'reach deep inside' or 'play with heart' or some bs. In chess!

Does 'wanting it more' make a difference? Probably, in the sense that it means you don't give up. But not giving up is not the same as winning. By the time pro athletes get to a final, they've gone through that a number of times. Do you think anyone got there and thought "Well, I guess I just don't want it that bad. Maybe #2 is okay for now"?

I could understand how "wanting it more" can help a dude in the offseason, or just working out and preparing in general, but it's silly when that comment is made about what happened in a game. Outcomes of playoff games are not decided on who gave the best effort, or who tried the hardest. It's the playoffs, players play hard. Players want to win. Games are decided on skill, execution, adjustments, a little bit of luck and refereeing (sometimes) etc. The Cavs didn't lose to the Spurs in the '07 Finals because LeBron is a choke artist and didn't "want it enough" - the Spurs were just better and played better.

Guys like Skip may be Hollywood and fun to watch, but I feel like it makes us dumber as fans and basketball analysts. Anyone who has played high school basketball knows how the game isn't as simple as Skip and SAS try to make it seem.

Eagles710
06-26-2012, 05:29 PM
Always Loved Mark Cuban, And i now love him more, Skip is an idiot and has no reason to be on TV, the only reason he is there is to Disagree with whatever anyone is saying, i guess thats why its a debate show. Gotta have one idiot to contradict what the facts are

ink
06-26-2012, 05:35 PM
I could understanding how "wanting it more" can help a dude in the offseason, or just working out and preparing in general, but it's silly when that comment is made about what happened in a game. Outcomes of playoff games are not decided on who gave the best effort, or who tried the hardest. It's the playoffs, players play hard. Players want to win. Games are decided on skill, execution, adjustments, a little bit of luck an refereeing (sometimes) etc. The Cavs didn't lose to the Spurs in the '07 Finals because LeBron is a choke artist and didn't "want it enough" - the Spurs were just better and played better.

Guys like Skip may be Hollywood and fun to watch, but I feel like it makes us dumber as fans and basketball analysts. Anyone who has played high school basketball knows how the game isn't as simple as Skip and SAS try to make it seem.

Great post. The bolded echoes what Cuban was saying about his Mavericks. Both the Spurs and the Mavs were better and played better and that, not effort or choking or any of that other BS, is what made them champions. It's ridiculous to assume or believe that the Cavs in 2007 "didn't want it" enough, yet basketball fans keep lapping it up from the likes of SAS and Bayless.

Sssmush
06-26-2012, 05:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sssmush
\I myself have never liked the storyline about "effort" and "who wants it more", not only because it's not realistic



It's the Hollywoodification of everything. I knew we were in trouble when I saw a movie a few years back about a kid who played in chess tournaments. His coach/instructor was telling him to 'reach deep inside' or 'play with heart' or some bs. In chess!

Does 'wanting it more' make a difference? Probably, in the sense that it means you don't give up. But not giving up is not the same as winning. By the time pro athletes get to a final, they've gone through that a number of times. Do you think anyone got there and thought "Well, I guess I just don't want it that bad. Maybe #2 is okay for now"?

You know... I mean there IS such a thing as having to dig down and play with heart. It's almost like the herculean effort is sometimes required to find that extra bit of ability to get over the top when you have an opponent of equal ability. And if Durant and Lebron are going full speed head to head for 48 minutes, in that last final seconds, they probably DO have to dig deep to win, just like champion distance runners would.

Although I still say that the "being cool under pressure" part of the mental game of basketball matters more, the "clutch" vs "choker" debate.

But yeah, the dig down deep and show some heart talk is really superficial. Of course it is part of the mythology of Gatorade and Nike now, that athletes like Jordan win because they have "heart" and are therefore worthy of selling us underwear and sports drinks and being huge icons.

In general, "effort" and "intense desire to win" is way, way, WAY more common than the kind of ability that Lebron or Durant have. Of course we could debate that Lebron to be in his position has way more desire to win than the couch potato, but I mean guys like Stephen A. Smith, they seem to want the teams to win so bad they are furious and hysterical, they want it so much badder than Lebron or Durant appears to. If it was just based on an emotional intensity meter or something, than Stephen A Smith would win the championship. Like is Stephen A. could just get inside of Carmelo's body, he would score a zillion points and shatter every record in the NBA.

Sssmush
06-26-2012, 05:41 PM
and LoL at the chess movie thing. That is funny. Like "C'MON, WIN! TRY! GIVE IT EVERYTHING YOU GOT!" LoL "Championship Effort! Champions never take a move off!"

I guess they never saw footage of Bobby Fischer simultaneously beating 12 regional champions or whatever while laughing and smiling.

broncosfan4eva
06-26-2012, 05:55 PM
he didnt really destroy him :O

kubernetes
06-26-2012, 06:37 PM
and LoL at the chess movie thing. That is funny. Like "C'MON, WIN! TRY! GIVE IT EVERYTHING YOU GOT!" LoL "Championship Effort! Champions never take a move off!"

I guess they never saw footage of Bobby Fischer simultaneously beating 12 regional champions or whatever while laughing and smiling.

Heh, I imagine he did that because he was playing lesser competition. But in real play it's about concentration and whatever abilities you have, either innately or through learning. You can play with all the heart you can muster in chess--won't make a lick of difference, because the guy with the best chess brain is going to win.

Our popular culture has so built up this "You just have to believe in yourself" dumbassery that people really think it's just about wanting it more or playing with heart. Rudy has turned us into a country of idiots when it comes to competition.

I thought Cuban exposed this quite well -- basketball is actually a lot more cerebral than people think. Individual play can be about superman talent and effort, but team play (and championships) involves making the right decisions in given situations.

Lebron could be depressed and have the worst confidence issues, and I could "believe in myself" up the wazoo, but he'd still destroy me on the court.

NYKalltheway
06-26-2012, 09:26 PM
Cuban knows his game

EvanTurner
06-28-2012, 01:13 AM
Skip is trash

Stay out of the sixers forum jocking my sayings