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View Full Version : Ellsbury as good as gone....Boras is gonna want a bigger contract than Matt Kemp



wolf82
06-21-2012, 07:52 AM
I was reading about how the Sox haven't had any contract extensions with Ells yet, and then I read what BORASS said about an extension.

Boras went on to explain that Matt Kemp's eight-year, $160MM contract extension with the Dodgers isn't a fair reference point for a potential Ellsbury deal.

"The Matt Kemp contract is not a free agent contract," said Boras. "It's not a barometer that has a great deal of relevance other than it's what players get who are not free agents and are really talented. So when you look at the free agent markets and you look at those types of contracts you can understand there is always a big disparity between a free agent contract and a contract that is signed before the player is a free agent."

To me this means they are going to want a 8-10 + years, and over $200MM

Sorry, but Ells hasn't proved he is worth that much, since 2 out of 3 years he has been a DL ranger.

I say once he shows he is healthy, trad him. There is no way the soc sign him for that much, and that long. I hope they learned their lesson with the Crawford, and Lackey deals.

bagwell368
06-21-2012, 11:59 AM
I've been saying for 2+ years that Ells won't sign here. After CC was signed it was a fact. Still the crowd intones "he'll stay, he likes here". Which is crap, he doesn't like it here, and he's never forgiven the fans, writers or medical staff for the criticism he took in 2010 over his injuries.

Then when I said Crawfords deal was the baseline for Ells next deal, it was "no no, he'll come for $10-12M.

He's going to end up on the Yankees since they will be needing a CF at that point. He's going to get $25M x 6, 7, or 8 years - which is stupid money. He's not worth it. 2011 was his career year, he won't repeat that.

If you can get more value sooner then the two picks we'll get when he goes - make the deal.

Nomar
06-21-2012, 01:01 PM
Agreed with Bagwell, hes not resigning, ive been in that boat as well.

Second, he isnt worth the money. I highly doubt he consistently hits 30 HRs, or 20 for that matter. Hes also had multiple long term injuries and has only had one year worth that type of money.

I love Ellsbury, but for the good of the organization, we have to let him walk. Besides, why for over big contracts to a position where our farm is stacked in (Kalish, Bradley, Jacobs, Brentz, Jerez, and probably Bogaerts and Cecchini as well).

Tragedy
06-21-2012, 01:10 PM
I said ALL offseason: Ellsbury should be traded. His value was at its peak and I personally don't believe he'll ever duplicate that season. Instead, though, the Sox did exactly what I expected them to do. Rather than rebuild the team and trade some guys that we should trade, they kept everyone (other than Scutaro..) and now can't get any value for a Youkilis or an Ellsbury.

Good job Red Sox.

TragicallyHip
06-21-2012, 01:14 PM
Here's a hypothetical that you can file under obviously never going to happen, but humor me.

At this point, would you trade Ellsbury for a prospect if the other team agreed to take Crawford as well?

wolf82
06-21-2012, 01:19 PM
Here's a hypothetical that you can file under obviously never going to happen, but humor me.

At this point, would you trade Ellsbury for a prospect if the other team agreed to take Crawford as well?

Let's face it we are stuck with Crawford, and his contract.


We def don't need $200MM + in LF and CF. I say spend that money on starting pitching.

A healthy Ells can get atleast a decent SP in a trade

khanusma
06-21-2012, 01:31 PM
he'll be broken 33% to 50% of the time anyway.

Crucis
06-21-2012, 01:59 PM
I've been saying for 2+ years that Ells won't sign here. After CC was signed it was a fact. Still the crowd intones "he'll stay, he likes here". Which is crap, he doesn't like it here, and he's never forgiven the fans, writers or medical staff for the criticism he took in 2010 over his injuries.

Then when I said Crawfords deal was the baseline for Ells next deal, it was "no no, he'll come for $10-12M.

He's going to end up on the Yankees since they will be needing a CF at that point. He's going to get $25M x 6, 7, or 8 years - which is stupid money. He's not worth it. 2011 was his career year, he won't repeat that.

If you can get more value sooner then the two picks we'll get when he goes - make the deal.

Bags, the only point of disagreement I have here is that *IF* he does go to the Yankees, I think that it's entirely possible that Ells could put up some eye-popping numbers on a more regular basis. I think that Yankee Stadium's short RF may really pump up Ellsbury's power numbers, much moreso than Fenway.

Nomar
06-21-2012, 02:01 PM
God should make us trade Beckett, Ellsbury, and Brentz to MIA for Stanton

JPBoston
06-21-2012, 02:02 PM
Will even the dreaded MFY give a giant contract to Ells? I mean, basically season-long injuries in 2 out of 3 years... that's pretty insane. I can't imagine anyone giving him a long term deal.

Crazier things have happened, sure... but man...

Tragedy
06-21-2012, 02:04 PM
Will even the dreaded MFY give a giant contract to Ells? I mean, basically season-long injuries in 2 out of 3 years... that's pretty insane. I can't imagine anyone giving him a long term deal.

Crazier things have happened, sure... but man...
Somehow I'm sure Boras will squeeze a ridiculously silly 6 year deal out of some team.

And I would never even CONSIDER that. Guy is glass.

wolf82
06-21-2012, 02:26 PM
Somehow I'm sure Boras will squeeze a ridiculously silly 6 year deal out of some team.

And I would never even CONSIDER that. Guy is glass.

Possibly the Cubs?

goshhhjosh
06-21-2012, 02:27 PM
I wouldn't say that Ellsbury is made of glass. This is just my opinion and I'm no Doogie Howser but it seems like Ellsbury takes his sweet 'ol time coming back from injury.

I will also state that his 2 injuries weren't his fault - running into a tank of a 3rd baseman in Adrian Beltre and getting your shoulder landed on. I can see how one would get irritated with him regarding how long it takes for him to come back.

Paying north of 20 million for Ellsbury to me seems laughable. He had a great 2011 season and should have won the AL MVP, however, the Red Sox should have cheaper outfield options progressing through the minors. Thanks for the free Taco during the 2007 World Series playoffs, but damn, you're not worth 20 million.

RedSoxtober
06-21-2012, 03:52 PM
I've been saying for 2+ years that Ells won't sign here. After CC was signed it was a fact. Still the crowd intones "he'll stay, he likes here". Which is crap, he doesn't like it here, and he's never forgiven the fans, writers or medical staff for the criticism he took in 2010 over his injuries.

Then when I said Crawfords deal was the baseline for Ells next deal, it was "no no, he'll come for $10-12M.

He's going to end up on the Yankees since they will be needing a CF at that point. He's going to get $25M x 6, 7, or 8 years - which is stupid money. He's not worth it. 2011 was his career year, he won't repeat that.

If you can get more value sooner then the two picks we'll get when he goes - make the deal.
I'll corroborate every thing you've said except the bolded part. I don't think anyone was dumb enough to suggest that kind of money for Ellsbury. It's possible that someone suggested something like $50M/4yr for a deal that started THIS season (paying high for arb years to buy down two FA seasons) but no way that was a value on the open market. If so, the objection was very much in the minority.


I wouldn't say that Ellsbury is made of glass. This is just my opinion and I'm no Doogie Howser but it seems like Ellsbury takes his sweet 'ol time coming back from injury.


It's a split decision on his durability. Neither his 2010 nor his 2012 injury were "soft" injuries as you say. However, he DID have a reputation for being soft in the minors. I also recall an article in 2008 where Tito reportedly took him aside and made thinly veiled references to him needing to play through tweaks and sore muscles that would cause Drew to sit. That stuff has some basis in fact, albeit potentially just historical.

Soft or not, I completely agree that he does not come across as a guy who's committed to getting on the field to help his teammates. He seems perfectly content to collect $9M to get ready whenever he feels like it.

As far as the "more than Kemp" stuff goes, who cares? It's nothing more than typical Boras posturing. The guy says NOTHING but that which will drive up his clients' value. Remember, he's the guy who GUARANTEED Damon would be in the HOF and collect 3K hits (252 shy and not likely to beg into another deal with a .203/.295/.325 showing in his age 38 season).

Quite honestly, I don't care if he signs with the Sox or not.

Celtic AL
06-21-2012, 07:50 PM
i dont think hes injury prone. and i agree i think we should trade him in the offseason for some prospects who can help us in the future

Towelie
06-21-2012, 08:03 PM
He can say whatever he wants to say, doesn't mean he will get it. Nobody is giving him, Kemp money.

1_FrozenNetsFan
06-21-2012, 11:58 PM
I've been saying for 2+ years that Ells won't sign here. After CC was signed it was a fact. Still the crowd intones "he'll stay, he likes here". Which is crap, he doesn't like it here, and he's never forgiven the fans, writers or medical staff for the criticism he took in 2010 over his injuries.

Then when I said Crawfords deal was the baseline for Ells next deal, it was "no no, he'll come for $10-12M.

He's going to end up on the Yankees since they will be needing a CF at that point. He's going to get $25M x 6, 7, or 8 years - which is stupid money. He's not worth it. 2011 was his career year, he won't repeat that.

If you can get more value sooner then the two picks we'll get when he goes - make the deal.

I'm right there with ya on this one Bags. I know it seems like we've pulled a magic rabbit out of our hat this year with the production we've gotten from guys we've run out there in the OF but I'm not so sure we couldn't do it again if need be. I'd much rather see that $ spent on a #1 or#2 pitcher and still have some left over. I can't stand Bore *** anyhow.

1_FrozenNetsFan
06-22-2012, 12:03 AM
God should make us trade Beckett, Ellsbury, and Brentz to MIA for Stanton

I don't think you get extra runs for hitting a ball to the next continent but if I'm wrong then let's "make a deal":rolleyes:

celtisox41
06-22-2012, 12:40 AM
I've been saying for 2+ years that Ells won't sign here. After CC was signed it was a fact. Still the crowd intones "he'll stay, he likes here". Which is crap, he doesn't like it here, and he's never forgiven the fans, writers or medical staff for the criticism he took in 2010 over his injuries.

Then when I said Crawfords deal was the baseline for Ells next deal, it was "no no, he'll come for $10-12M.

He's going to end up on the Yankees since they will be needing a CF at that point. He's going to get $25M x 6, 7, or 8 years - which is stupid money. He's not worth it. 2011 was his career year, he won't repeat that.

If you can get more value sooner then the two picks we'll get when he goes - make the deal.

What are you basing this off of? Your opinion? You can't expect people to just believe it because you say it. He may not like it here, or he may love it here, nobody knows so don't act like you do.

And I hope they bring him back, because if they let him go to the Yankees then they got a 50-50 player because of the short right field and Ellsbury's pull swing.

I know they won't pay him though, so trading him now would be a good idea, they could get a few elite prospects for him

redsox1108
06-22-2012, 02:50 AM
And I hope they bring him back, because if they let him go to the Yankees then they got a 50-50 player because of the short right field and Ellsbury's pull swing.

50-50, WTF are you smoking? Like people have said above, I do indeed think he put up some career numbers last year that will never be reached again. Maybe a 20-40. Not worth the money with the contracts that we already have. And if that means trading him once healthy, that's what we should do, for the largest haul possible, draft picks are nice through FA, but getting top or multiple mid-level prospects can improve the system as well, if not trade for a front of the line SP in a package deal, and that all depends on if the FO thinks they have a WS contention team. With the right moves and a hot streak the Sox can be in it if you ask me.

todu82
06-22-2012, 09:09 AM
Yeah, can't see Ellsbury signing here long-term either. Think we use the money we save from not keeping him and using it on a power bat in CF.

1_FrozenNetsFan
06-22-2012, 09:48 AM
Let me just say this about that...this FO needs to start running the RS according to what the RS need and not what the Yanks want...if Ells goes to the yanks for untold riches so let him. I'm sure there are instances the RS went after a player just to keep him out of the Yanks hands more than once...how has that worked out?? I could be mistaken but I think the Yanks were in the DiceK sweepstakes...how has that worked out??? At worse the RS get 2 draft pick and mebbe even more with a trade. So let him go with his issues and his Bore *** agent.

Super.
06-22-2012, 12:07 PM
I don't understand how Boras can want that much money for a guy that's been great for one season, and hurt for 2.

That's just stupid.

johnnyswimm
06-22-2012, 12:42 PM
God should make us trade Beckett, Ellsbury, and Brentz to MIA for Stanton
I would be ok with this. Ells isn't going to get a mega contract he is unhealthy 2/3 years the red sox will get him back for hometown discount.

RedSoxtober
06-22-2012, 02:19 PM
What are you basing this off of? Your opinion? You can't expect people to just believe it because you say it. He may not like it here, or he may love it here, nobody knows so don't act like you do.

No, it's actually been discussed before. He's not very happy in BOS.


Let me just say this about that...this FO needs to start running the RS according to what the RS need and not what the Yanks want...if Ells goes to the yanks for untold riches so let him. I'm sure there are instances the RS went after a player just to keep him out of the Yanks hands more than once...how has that worked out?? I could be mistaken but I think the Yanks were in the DiceK sweepstakes...how has that worked out??? At worse the RS get 2 draft pick and mebbe even more with a trade. So let him go with his issues and his Bore *** agent.

Terrible argument here. The Sox were in on Dice-K because they believed that he'd perform at the MLB level AND because they were buying into a new market for their goods. He's not been a good investment in a baseball sense but it was good business. Regardless, they did not buy in because the Yankees were there, they bought in for both baseball and business reasons.

Crucis
06-22-2012, 02:29 PM
I don't understand how Boras can want that much money for a guy that's been great for one season, and hurt for 2.

That's just stupid.

I think that you could say that it's his initial bargaining position.

wolf82
06-22-2012, 02:42 PM
I think that you could say that it's his initial bargaining position.

Agreed! BorASS seems to find a team to manipulate, and over pay for his clients.

1_FrozenNetsFan
06-22-2012, 03:12 PM
[

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1_FrozenNetsFan
Let me just say this about that...this FO needs to start running the RS according to what the RS need and not what the Yanks want...if Ells goes to the yanks for untold riches so let him. I'm sure there are instances the RS went after a player just to keep him out of the Yanks hands more than once...how has that worked out?? I could be mistaken but I think the Yanks were in the DiceK sweepstakes...how has that worked out??? At worse the RS get 2 draft pick and mebbe even more with a trade. So let him go with his issues and his Bore *** agent.



Terrible argument here. The Sox were in on Dice-K because they believed that he'd perform at the MLB level AND because they were buying into a new market for their goods. He's not been a good investment in a baseball sense but it was good business. Regardless, they did not buy in because the Yankees were there, they bought in for both baseball and business reasons.[/QUOTE]


but as I stated earlier in a thread I'm not aware of ANY Japanese pitcher that was worth what the RS shelled out for Dice as far as a baseball player. Perhaps he's been a good $ investment but do the RS have the cushion to have a starting pitcher get shelled ever 5th day or so? I say let someone make the $ off sales to Japan and let's have a good starter to roll out instead.

RedSoxtober
06-22-2012, 04:14 PM
but as I stated earlier in a thread I'm not aware of ANY Japanese pitcher that was worth what the RS shelled out for Dice as far as a baseball player. Perhaps he's been a good $ investment but do the RS have the cushion to have a starting pitcher get shelled ever 5th day or so? I say let someone make the $ off sales to Japan and let's have a good starter to roll out instead.

Dice-K had completely dominated MLB players a year before in the WBC. He had very good JPL numbers and was being released from his contract for his age 26 season. There was every reason to think that he would be successful.

Calling it a bad investment is easy in hindsight. If that's your point I guess that's fine but the context was that the Sox should stop trying to make baseball decisions based on keeping pieces from the Yankees. It was certainly easy to get confused.

Nomar
06-22-2012, 04:28 PM
Dice-K had completely dominated MLB players a year before in the WBC. He had very good JPL numbers and was being released from his contract for his age 26 season. There was every reason to think that he would be successful.

Calling it a bad investment is easy in hindsight. If that's your point I guess that's fine but the context was that the Sox should stop trying to make baseball decisions based on keeping pieces from the Yankees. It was certainly easy to get confused.

Yeah the Yankees just drove the prices up way high and forced the Sox into overspending.

If i was a GM i would never sign a Japanese pitcher... none of them pan out

1_FrozenNetsFan
06-22-2012, 06:51 PM
Yeah the Yankees just drove the prices up way high and forced the Sox into overspending.

If i was a GM i would never sign a Japanese pitcher... none of them pan out

"thank you for your support":)

bagwell368
06-22-2012, 08:56 PM
Bags, the only point of disagreement I have here is that *IF* he does go to the Yankees, I think that it's entirely possible that Ells could put up some eye-popping numbers on a more regular basis. I think that Yankee Stadium's short RF may really pump up Ellsbury's power numbers, much moreso than Fenway.

Actually I agree, I'm more focused on his physical breakdowns. I'll be happy to see it happen (him going there). He'll have some big moments for sure, but overall - a mistake for the evil empire.

Nomar
06-22-2012, 08:59 PM
Actually I agree, I'm more focused on his physical breakdowns. I'll be happy to see it happen (him going there). He'll have some big moments for sure, but overall - a mistake for the evil empire.

Knowing our luck hell become Cal Ripken for them lol

1_FrozenNetsFan
06-22-2012, 09:12 PM
Actually I agree, I'm more focused on his physical breakdowns. I'll be happy to see it happen (him going there). He'll have some big moments for sure, but overall - a mistake for the evil empire.

time will tell

bagwell368
06-23-2012, 04:15 PM
What are you basing this off of? Your opinion? You can't expect people to just believe it because you say it.

I don't have any pattern of doing that here. It's been mentioned in the media a few times that Ellsbury doesn't like playing in Boston - go look it up. He also didn't like the crap he got over his slow recovery time in 2010 - he'd have to be a statue not to let that get him.


He may not like it here, or he may love it here, nobody knows so don't act like you do.

I suggest you do some research before you flap your gums.

-Lavigne43-
06-23-2012, 04:24 PM
Ellsbury would have to play at his 2011 level from his return through 2013 to come anywhere near Kemp's contract, I don't see that happening. He will probably go to the highest bidder and it will probably be the right move to let him walk. The Yankees love signing Red Sox players but I'm not sure they will be all over him. They will be giving Cano a massive contract that offseason.

bagwell368
06-23-2012, 04:55 PM
Ells won't make Kemp money, but Crawford set the floor for him as long as Ells stays reasonably healthy and hits well.

I don't see Cano having much of an effect truthfully. Granderson will cost the Yanks $15M in '14 if they take his option - so the slot is already there, just needs to grow by 2 good MR's to pay for Ells.

Greenmonster24
06-23-2012, 09:40 PM
Dice K still had 17 wins in 2007 with over 200 strikeouts. We needed him in the rotation with Schilling and Beckett. I don't think we win a world series if we don't sign him. There was a horrible market for pitching that year with Zito the best option and Dice K went 18 and 3 and posted a ERA under 3 in 2008 so he had 35 wins the first 2 years. When you make a big free agent you do it for short term sucess and may pay for it later. That is what we got in Dice K. Crawford and Lackey and Cameron and Lugo and Jenks are just bad contracts given what was out there. Keeping Gonzalas at Shortstop instead of Lugo was a better move. Signing Matt Holliday and a 1 year pitcher was better then throwing 25 million at Lackey and Cameron what we combine to pay in 2010 which we wouldn't needed a outfielder had we sign Matt Holliday and I think he would put monster numbers up hitting in that park.

Bertolucci
06-23-2012, 10:29 PM
God should make us trade Beckett, Ellsbury, and Brentz to MIA for Stanton
expand that trade to include Adrian Gonzalez for Logan Morrison. Gonzo would fit nicely in the Latin community of Miami and Lo Mo has a great swing for Fenway. Maybe we can pry an arm or an infielder (Ramerez??)from the Fish Keep Youk at first, if he falters Lars Anderson is just down the road.

Bertolucci
06-23-2012, 10:39 PM
God should make us trade Beckett, Ellsbury, and Brentz to MIA for Stanton
expand that trade to include Adrian Gonzalez for Logan Morrison. Gonzo would fit nicely in the Latin community of Miami and Lo Mo has a great swing for Fenway. Maybe we can pry an arm or an infielder (Ramerez??)from the Fish Keep Youk at first, if he falters Lars Anderson is just down the road.

JPBoston
06-23-2012, 10:56 PM
expand that trade to include Adrian Gonzalez for Logan Morrison. Gonzo would fit nicely in the Latin community of Miami and Lo Mo has a great swing for Fenway. Maybe we can pry an arm or an infielder (Ramerez??)from the Fish Keep Youk at first, if he falters Lars Anderson is just down the road.

What a depressing era for the Red Sox.

Beckett and Lackey lead the bear n' chicken brigade last year. Lackey doesn't play this year, Beckett has major ups and downs and battles with the media.

Lester starts declining before he ever really hit his ceiling (hopefully just a prolonged medicore-slump, but give me benefit of the doubt for dramatic affect ;) )

Injuries and possibly soft attitude render Buchholz and Ellsbury useless, after teasing us with eye-opening seasons beforehand

CC sucks at a record pace last year... hasn't seen the field this year

Sox pay major money for Japanese star Matsuzaka... who basically has one decent year, several poor ones, and a year missed due to Tommy-John surgery.

Youk's injuries pile up, leading him to be replaced by a young AAA player

And now A-Gon, the one guy who should be a set-in-stone batting champ type player, can't hit his way out of a wet paper bag.... the season after saying "meh, god's will and stuff" :p after the historical September collapse, and people are fantasizing about trading him in the 2nd year on the team.

Pedey fights thru several injuries, missing small chunks of seasons, and is less effective then he could be, even when he does play.

New closer who replaces Papelbon gets injured, misses at least first half of season

Bobby Jenks is woefully ineffective on the field, classless trash/criminal off the field

Ortiz, playing better then most imagined he would at this age... battles the media and curses like a drunken sailor whenever asked a question.

Can it go any worse then this, really? :facepalm:

Nomar
06-23-2012, 11:19 PM
Are you ******** me?! Gonzalez for Morrison? Nooooo no no no no no

RedSoxtober
06-24-2012, 02:19 PM
Yeah the Yankees just drove the prices up way high and forced the Sox into overspending.

If i was a GM i would never sign a Japanese pitcher... none of them pan out

How did the Yankees "dr[i]ve up the prices way high" when they were only permitted to submit secret, silent, written bids?

Nomar
06-24-2012, 08:35 PM
How did the Yankees "dr[i]ve up the prices way high" when they were only permitted to submit secret, silent, written bids?

At that time if you remember they were the favorites to land him in the primary stages, then the Red Sox stepped up their bidding. The Red Sox clearly didnt want to let him land in NYY.

Greenmonster24
06-24-2012, 08:41 PM
I thaught the Mets were second in bidding to us not the Yankees.

bagwell368
06-24-2012, 08:44 PM
At that time if you remember they were the favorites to land him in the primary stages, then the Red Sox stepped up their bidding. The Red Sox clearly didnt want to let him land in NYY.

Yeah but it was speculation/innuendo driven in the media - no telling what the FO was thinking/doing - although they were obviously trying to avoid being outbid. The Sox outbid the Yanks by what - $11M.

Nomar
06-24-2012, 08:46 PM
I thaught the Mets were second in bidding to us not the Yankees.

Their bid was the second highest, but the point i was trying to make is that fear of the yankees dropping a high bid guided the Red Sox into bidding what ended up being the highest one.

What im saying is impossible to prove really, its not like i was a part of the organization's decision. But i definitely think Theo was determined to outbid NYY.

RedSoxtober
06-24-2012, 09:32 PM
At that time if you remember they were the favorites to land him in the primary stages, then the Red Sox stepped up their bidding. The Red Sox clearly didnt want to let him land in NYY.


Their bid was the second highest, but the point i was trying to make is that fear of the yankees dropping a high bid guided the Red Sox into bidding what ended up being the highest one.

What im saying is impossible to prove really, its not like i was a part of the organization's decision. But i definitely think Theo was determined to outbid NYY.

I completely disagree. The Sox had a pacific rim scout (Shipley?) who was totally in love with Dice-K. They were wowed by his WBC appearance and wanted him at almost any price. They presumed that he would be a #1-2 and figured the total outlay (basically $16M/yr if you add the bid with the contract) was reasonable money for a front line starter. Part of the confirmation (IMO) is that their bid was symbolic -- beyond the most significant figure in the bid, their bid for Dice-K included the number he wore in the JPL.

Nomar
06-24-2012, 10:28 PM
I completely disagree. The Sox had a pacific rim scout (Shipley?) who was totally in love with Dice-K. They were wowed by his WBC appearance and wanted him at almost any price. They presumed that he would be a #1-2 and figured the total outlay (basically $16M/yr if you add the bid with the contract) was reasonable money for a front line starter. Part of the confirmation (IMO) is that their bid was symbolic -- beyond the most significant figure in the bid, their bid for Dice-K included the number he wore in the JPL.

I agree that he was supposed to be good, there were nothing but reasons to believe he would be a #1 or #2. The Sox loved him, wanted him, and gave him an offer that he couldnt refuse.