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kjoke
06-21-2012, 12:27 AM
Why is it that Kobe's 5 championships are brought up, but never that he only has 2 finals MVP?

Not intended to bate, Kobe is obviously a great player and a multiple champion, just curious to know why he's known as such a dominate force, and only has 2 finals mvps/ Was Shaq that much more deserving? A lot of credit goes to Kobe, for something that he may not have been the most influential person at that time.

KB-Pau-DH2012
06-21-2012, 12:34 AM
Kobe slayed the dragons of the West in the early 2000s with the likes of Sacramento, Portland and of course the defensive beasts that were the twin tower Duncan, Robinson Spurs during the times when Shaq would get into foul trouble and his inability to hit free throws as teams were utilizing the Hack-a-Shaq.

In the Finals, Shaq went against the likes of Smits, Maccullogh, Matt Geiger and Mutombo (past his prime). That's why Shaq got the accolades while Kobe carried the team through the first 3 rounds.

Year after year, guys like Sabonis, Divac (flopping) and the Spurs twin towers used to get Shaq into foul trouble, and Shaq used to have trouble scoring over the twin towers.

Ryan328
06-21-2012, 12:35 AM
Pretty much

HesterJordan23
06-21-2012, 12:36 AM
shaq was the leader kobe wasnt kobe was #2 at the time and when he wgot his MVPS was when he was #1 on the team

utl768
06-21-2012, 12:37 AM
shaq had awesome finals those years but it was a team effort mostly led by kobe because shaq was fat and lazy until the playoffs started

HesterJordan23
06-21-2012, 12:40 AM
shaq had awesome finals those years but it was a team effort mostly led by kobe because shaq was fat and lazy until the playoffs started

thats exactly it but shaq has done that his whole career it seemed like once he got hurt he would take the season off then pball out the playoffs.. but tht didnt fly cuz kobe wanted him out.. but then shaq won the ring the next year...in miami... goes to show who was the leader of the team

STL Don
06-21-2012, 12:42 AM
5 finals appearances is a lot. 2 fmvp's and 3 times being the runner up to Shaq is pretty impressive on a resume'.

DaSeba5
06-21-2012, 12:53 AM
5 finals appearances is a lot. 2 fmvp's and 3 times being the runner up to Shaq is pretty impressive on a resume'.

He's been there 7 times, which is even more impressive.

ChitownBears22
06-21-2012, 12:57 AM
I always wondered this as well.

KB-Pau-DH2012's theory is flawed too:

00-99 Shaq was in foul trouble 8/23 games.

He averaged 30/15 in that playoffs 38ppg 16rpg in the finals
Kobe 21/4/4 average 15.6 ppg in the Finals

00-01 Shaq was is foul trouble 5/16 games.

He averaged 30/15 in the playoffs 33ppg 15rpg in the finals
Kobe 29/7/6 24.4ppg in the finals

01-02 Shaq was in foul trouble 4/19 games

He average 28/12 in the playoffs 36ppg 12rpg in the finals
Kobe 26/5/4 26ppg finals

Notice how Shaq dominated while kobe spectated. Kobe wasn't bad and I am not saying he was. But he was not the primary reason they won those championships. I think you could switch him out with TMac or Iverson and the story is the same.

KB-Pau-DH2012
06-21-2012, 01:07 AM
I always wondered this as well.

KB-Pau-DH2012's theory is flawed too:

00-99 Shaq was in foul trouble 8/23 games.

He averaged 30/15 in that playoffs 38ppg 16rpg in the finals
Kobe 21/4/4 average 15.6 ppg in the Finals

00-01 Shaq was is foul trouble 5/16 games.

He averaged 30/15 in the playoffs 33ppg 15rpg in the finals
Kobe 29/7/6 24.4ppg in the finals

01-02 Shaq was in foul trouble 4/19 games

He average 28/12 in the playoffs 36ppg 12rpg in the finals
Kobe 26/5/4 26ppg finals

Notice how Shaq dominated while kobe spectated. Kobe wasn't bad and I am not saying he was. But he was not the primary reason they won those championships. I think you could switch him out with TMac or Iverson and the story is the same.

Kobe averaged only 15.6 PPG in the 2000 Finals because he went down with a serious ankle injury in the first qtr of game 2 in LA against the Pacers. I think he had only 3 pts so far until he went down.

He wanted to play in game 3 @ Indy, but Phil, Jerry West and Dr. Buss reprimanded the young afro Kobe and told him he couldn't play on a ankle the size of a balloon. The Lakers lost that game 3 w/o Kobe.

But he still decided to come back in game 4 @ Indy, where he was significantly still hobbling, but he still managed to take over when Shaq fouled out in OT, and gave the Lakers a 3-1.

Game 5, when the Lakers got blown out by 33, the effects of the ankle injury were still there as Kobe went just 4-20 FG (yikes).

Kobe was the 2nd scorer on that team, but he was the primary defender as he was trying to chase around and fighting through several screens (on a bum ankle) prime Reggie throughout the whole series.


In 2001, he was trying to guard AI while Shaq was having a field day against Mutombo and the legendary Matt Geiger.

Yes, Kobe's average dipped in the finals, but the first 3 rounds, he actually led the Lakers in scoring at 31.4 PPG, including back-to-back 40 pt games in the playoffs, both on the road (Game 4 @ Sacramento close out game of the 2nd round, and game 1 @ SAS of the WCF).


In 2002, Kobe was guarding prime Jason Kidd (who was a league MVP candidate that yr) and Kerry Kittles while Shaq was dominating the iconic Todd Macculogh.


In the 2001 WCF Sweep of the Defensive juggernaut Spurs, it wasn't Shaq who helped us destroy the Spurs, but rather Kobe and D-fish with his NBA record for most 3's made in a 4game series sweep (15-20 3pters, 75%).


If Kobe was a robin, then I must say, Kobe Bean Bryant is the greatest ROBIN, the greatest 2nd fiddle guy, the greatest sidekick in National Basketball Association history. And there's no shame in that, because when the big fella didn't have the gas to finish games, Kobe was right there. ANd Kobe always guarded the team's best offensive perimeter player. He shoulder a lot of responsibilities.


And a lot of Shaq's dunks came off of Kobe and Brian Shaw's passes. Shaw's lobs and Kobe penetration and passes to Shaq for countless amount of AND 1 Opportunities put Shaq at the best positions to score and get his opponents into foul trouble.





Listen, I love both Shaq and Kobe, so I'm not here to discredit either one. I love them both, and I miss that tandem. :(

FreakaNashur
06-21-2012, 01:08 AM
thats exactly it but shaq has done that his whole career it seemed like once he got hurt he would take the season off then pball out the playoffs.. but tht didnt fly cuz kobe wanted him out.. but then shaq won the ring the next year...in miami... goes to show who was the leader of the team
YET SHAQ wasnt the finals mvp in miami.

kjoke
06-21-2012, 01:12 AM
Kobe slayed the dragons of the West in the early 2000s with the likes of Sacramento, Portland and of course the defensive beasts that were the twin tower Duncan, Robinson Spurs during the times when Shaq would get into foul trouble and his inability to hit free throws as teams were utilizing the Hack-a-Shaq.

In the Finals, Shaq went against the likes of Smits, Maccullogh, Matt Geiger and Mutombo (past his prime). That's why Shaq got the accolades while Kobe carried the team through the first 3 rounds.

Year after year, guys like Sabonis, Divac (flopping) and the Spurs twin towers used to get Shaq into foul trouble, and Shaq used to have trouble scoring over the twin towers.

Makes sense

lpdunks8
06-21-2012, 01:14 AM
Kobe averaged only 15.6 PPG in the 2000 Finals because he went down with a serious ankle injury in the first qtr of game 2 in LA against the Pacers. I think he had only 3 pts so far until he went down.

He wanted to play in game 3 @ Indy, but Phil, Jerry West and Dr. Buss reprimanded the young afro Kobe and told him he couldn't play on a ankle the size of a balloon. The Lakers lost that game 3 w/o Kobe.

But he still decided to come back in game 4 @ Indy, where he was significantly still hobbling, but he still managed to take over when Shaq fouled out in OT, and gave the Lakers a 3-1.

Game 5, when the Lakers got blown out by 33, the effects of the ankle injury were still there as Kobe went just 4-20 FG (yikes).

Kobe was the 2nd scorer on that team, but he was the primary defender as he was trying to chase around and fighting through several screens (on a bum ankle) prime Reggie throughout the whole series.


In 2001, he was trying to guard AI while Shaq was having a field day against Mutombo and the legendary Matt Geiger.

Yes, Kobe's average dipped in the finals, but the first 3 rounds, he actually led the Lakers in scoring at 31.4 PPG, including back-to-back 40 pt games in the playoffs, both on the road (Game 4 @ Sacramento close out game of the 2nd round, and game 1 @ SAS of the WCF).


In 2002, Kobe was guarding prime Jason Kidd (who was a league MVP candidate that yr) and Kerry Kittles while Shaq was dominating the iconic Todd Macculogh.


In the 2001 WCF Sweep of the Defensive juggernaut Spurs, it wasn't Shaq who helped us destroy the Spurs, but rather Kobe and D-fish with his NBA record for most 3's made in a 4game series sweep (15-20 3pters, 75%).


If Kobe was a robin, then I must say, Kobe Bean Bryant is the greatest ROBIN, the greatest 2nd fiddle guy, the greatest sidekick in National Basketball Association history. And there's no shame in that, because when the big fella didn't have the gas to finish games, Kobe was right there. ANd Kobe always guarded the team's best offensive perimeter player. He shoulder a lot of responsibilities.


And a lot of Shaq's dunks came off of Kobe and Brian Shaw's passes. Shaw's lobs and Kobe penetration and passes to Shaq for countless amount of AND 1 Opportunities put Shaq at the best positions to score and get his opponents into foul trouble.





Listen, I love both Shaq and Kobe, so I'm not here to discredit either one. I love them both, and I miss that tandem. :(

You got it. I have a feeling the negative comments are from people who just went and looked at box scores.

If someone didn't watch every game of each series, they probably shouldn't comment. He was the facilitator and his defense in those early play-offs get him voted onto the all-defensive teams even today (seared in the voters memories...LOL).

Finally, why does anyone care? The Lakers won either way. In 88, nobody was questioning how James Worthy got the MVP over Magic. It didn't diminish #32.

Sad that a team game has turned into people just being fans of individuals.

LakersMaster24
06-21-2012, 01:14 AM
I always wondered this as well.

KB-Pau-DH2012's theory is flawed too:

00-99 Shaq was in foul trouble 8/23 games.

He averaged 30/15 in that playoffs 38ppg 16rpg in the finals
Kobe 21/4/4 average 15.6 ppg in the Finals

00-01 Shaq was is foul trouble 5/16 games.

He averaged 30/15 in the playoffs 33ppg 15rpg in the finals
Kobe 29/7/6 24.4ppg in the finals

01-02 Shaq was in foul trouble 4/19 games

He average 28/12 in the playoffs 36ppg 12rpg in the finals
Kobe 26/5/4 26ppg finals

Notice how Shaq dominated while kobe spectated. Kobe wasn't bad and I am not saying he was. But he was not the primary reason they won those championships. I think you could switch him out with TMac or Iverson and the story is the same.

Kobe averaged only 15.6 PPG in the 2000 Finals because he went down with a serious ankle injury in the first qtr of game 2 in LA against the Pacers. I think he had only 3 pts so far until he went down.

He wanted to play in game 3 @ Indy, but Phil, Jerry West and Dr. Buss reprimanded the young afro Kobe and told him he couldn't play on a ankle the size of a balloon. The Lakers lost that game 3 w/o Kobe.

But he still decided to come back in game 4 @ Indy, where he was significantly still hobbling, but he still managed to take over when Shaq fouled out in OT, and gave the Lakers a 3-1.

Game 5, when the Lakers got blown out by 33, the effects of the ankle injury were still there as Kobe went just 4-20 FG (yikes).

Kobe was the 2nd scorer on that team, but he was the primary defender as he was trying to chase around and fighting through several screens (on a bum ankle) prime Reggie throughout the whole series.


In 2001, he was trying to guard AI while Shaq was having a field day against Mutombo and the legendary Matt Geiger.

Yes, Kobe's average dipped in the finals, but the first 3 rounds, he actually led the Lakers in scoring at 31.4 PPG, including back-to-back 40 pt games in the playoffs, both on the road (Game 4 @ Sacramento close out game of the 2nd round, and game 1 @ SAS of the WCF).


In 2002, Kobe was guarding prime Jason Kidd (who was a league MVP candidate that yr) and Kerry Kittles while Shaq was dominating the iconic Todd Macculogh.


In the 2001 WCF Sweep of the Defensive juggernaut Spurs, it wasn't Shaq who helped us destroy the Spurs, but rather Kobe and D-fish with his NBA record for most 3's made in a 4game series sweep (15-20 3pters, 75%).


If Kobe was a robin, then I must say, Kobe Bean Bryant is the greatest ROBIN, the greatest 2nd fiddle guy, the greatest sidekick in National Basketball Association history. And there's no shame in that, because when the big fella didn't have the gas to finish games, Kobe was right there. ANd Kobe always guarded the team's best offensive perimeter player. He shoulder a lot of responsibilities.


And a lot of Shaq's dunks came off of Kobe and Brian Shaw's passes. Shaw's lobs and Kobe penetration and passes to Shaq for countless amount of AND 1 Opportunities put Shaq at the best positions to score and get his opponents into foul trouble.





Listen, I love both Shaq and Kobe, so I'm not here to discredit either one. I love them both, and I miss that tandem. :(

Signed. Sealed. Delivered.

Good breakdown.

ChitownBears22
06-21-2012, 01:14 AM
Kobe averaged only 15.6 PPG in the 2000 Finals because he went down with a serious ankle injury in the first qtr of game 2 in LA against the Pacers. I think he had only 3 pts so far until he went down.

He wanted to play in game 3 @ Indy, but Phil, Jerry West and Dr. Buss reprimanded the young afro Kobe and told him he couldn't play on a ankle the size of a balloon. The Lakers lost that game 3 w/o Kobe.

But he still decided to come back in game 4 @ Indy, where he was significantly still hobbling, but he still managed to take over when Shaq fouled out in OT, and gave the Lakers a 3-1.

Game 5, when the Lakers got blown out by 33, the effects of the ankle injury were still there as Kobe went just 4-20 FG (yikes).

Kobe was the 2nd scorer on that team, but he was the primary defender as he was trying to chase around and fighting through several screens (on a bum ankle) prime Reggie throughout the whole series.


In 2001, he was trying to guard AI while Shaq was having a field day against Mutombo and the legendary Matt Geiger.

Yes, Kobe's average dipped in the finals, but the first 3 rounds, he actually led the Lakers in scoring at 31.4 PPG, including back-to-back 40 pt games in the playoffs, both on the road (Game 4 @ Sacramento close out game of the 2nd round, and game 1 @ SAS of the WCF).


In 2002, Kobe was guarding prime Jason Kidd (who was a league MVP candidate that yr) and Kerry Kittles while Shaq was dominating the iconic Todd Macculogh.


In the 2001 WCF Sweep of the Defensive juggernaut Spurs, it wasn't Shaq who helped us destroy the Spurs, but rather Kobe and D-fish with his NBA record for most 3's made in a 4game series sweep (15-20 3pters, 75%).


If Kobe was a robin, then I must say, Kobe Bean Bryant is the greatest ROBIN, the greatest 2nd fiddle guy, the greatest sidekick in National Basketball Association history. And there's no shame in that, because when the big fella didn't have the gas to finish games, Kobe was right there. ANd Kobe always guarded the team's best offensive perimeter player. He shoulder a lot of responsibilities.


And a lot of Shaq's dunks came off of Kobe and Brian Shaw's passes. Shaw's lobs and Kobe penetration and passes to Shaq for countless amount of AND 1 Opportunities put Shaq at the best positions to score and get his opponents into foul trouble.





Listen, I love both Shaq and Kobe, so I'm not here to discredit either one. I love them both, and I miss that tandem. :(

I wasn't trying to discredit. I was just showing how dominate Shaq was. I am a Kobe fan. I like his cut-throat attitude on the floor and his inability to let his prior shots affect his future shots.

I was just showing why shaq got those MVP's. It wasn't because Kobe was bad, it was because he was good but Shaq was out of this world. I was just bothered by how you said Kobe got them to the Finals, I was just saying that Shaq was the main reason. The amount of extra looks they were able to get because of his rebounding was amazing. Almost made most games unfair.

kblo247
06-21-2012, 01:31 AM
I always wondered this as well.

KB-Pau-DH2012's theory is flawed too:

00-99 Shaq was in foul trouble 8/23 games.

He averaged 30/15 in that playoffs 38ppg 16rpg in the finals
Kobe 21/4/4 average 15.6 ppg in the Finals

00-01 Shaq was is foul trouble 5/16 games.

He averaged 30/15 in the playoffs 33ppg 15rpg in the finals
Kobe 29/7/6 24.4ppg in the finals

01-02 Shaq was in foul trouble 4/19 games

He average 28/12 in the playoffs 36ppg 12rpg in the finals
Kobe 26/5/4 26ppg finals

Notice how Shaq dominated while kobe spectated. Kobe wasn't bad and I am not saying he was. But he was not the primary reason they won those championships. I think you could switch him out with TMac or Iverson and the story is the same.
1. Kobe was the guy who defended Kidd and Penny, while still scoring and facilitating. He also would be the guy in game 7 versus Portland by Shaqs own admission as he went in the huddle when they were down screaming he had this, brought them back, outplayed everyone on the court on either side, and took it. The finals averages are hella screwed, as Kobe only played 9 minutes in game 2 before severly spraining his ankle to the point he wasn't even medically cleared to return to less than 24 hours before game 4, a game in which he he took over while Shaq watched.

2. They just dominated. Fisher needs love as well as he went god mode on the spurs from 3 to the point Allen, Kerr, Peja, and every shooter in history would be jealous. That said Kobe flat out dominated Portland (25/8/4 - 48%) while taking Bonzi and Pippen out the first round. He went on to Sacramento (35/9/4 - 47%. Then followed up with San Antonio (36/9/6 - 51%). Then they waited for seemed like forever and got Phili where Shaq dominated the finals.

3. Kobe still went 26/6/5, 26/5/5, and 27/6/5 while playing 44mins and being the primary facilitator and perimeter defender vs Portland, Sac, and SA in the 02 playoffs as well

Their last two years together Kobe was better versus Minny until he tore his shoulder out dunking on KG and Rasho in 03, after carrying that team all year while Shaq was fat and healing on company time. In 04 Kobe was the best of the big 4 in the western playoffs, and Malone had an argument for second as Phil took Shaq off Yao and had Malone check him and then check KG and Tim the next rounds. Malone also put Shaq on blast for being lazy and not bringing it like he promised. They also don't comeback from down 0-2 at all without Kobe doing what he didn't that game 4 or making all the shots before Fosh in 5

Shaq says it on the DVDs, Kobe jabbed the west to death so eh could deliver the ok in the finals. It worked. They won like that, but it became problematic when Shaq just stopped trying all together throughout the year and came into camp damn near 400lbs and wanting to tell others how to work.

Avenged
06-21-2012, 01:33 AM
I don't know about you guys but his 5 championships and 2 Finals MVPs are ALWAYS brought up when discussing this.. Check out a Kobe thread where we are discussing his titles and you'll see it.

KB-Pau-DH2012
06-21-2012, 01:34 AM
I don't know about you guys but his 5 championships and 2 Finals MVPs are ALWAYS brought up when discussing this.. Check out a Kobe thread where we are discussing his titles and you'll see it.

That's just Lakerssemper & lakersfan01 vs the rest of Laker nation. :laugh2:

ChitownBears22
06-21-2012, 01:35 AM
1. Kobe was the guy who defended Kidd and Penny, while still scoring and facilitating. He also would be the guy in game 7 versus Portland by Shaqs own admission as he went in the huddle when they were down screaming he had this, brought them back, outplayed everyone on the court on either side, and took it. The finals averages are hella screwed, as Kobe only played 9 minutes in game 2 before severly spraining his ankle to the point he wasn't even medically cleared to return to less than 24 hours before game 4, a game in which he he took over while Shaq watched.

2. They just dominated. Fisher needs love as well as he went god mode on the spurs from 3 to the point Allen, Kerr, Peja, and every shooter in history would be jealous. That said Kobe flat out dominated Portland (25/8/4 - 48%) while taking Bonzi and Pippen out the first round. He went on to Sacramento (35/9/4 - 47%. Then followed up with San Antonio (36/9/6 - 51%). Then they waited for seemed like forever and got Phili where Shaq dominated the finals.

3. Kobe still went 26/6/5, 26/5/5, and 27/6/5 while playing 44mins and being the primary facilitator and perimeter defender vs Portland, Sac, and SA in the 02 playoffs as well

Their last two years together Kobe was better versus Minny until he tore his shoulder out dunking on KG and Rasho in 03, after carrying that team all year while Shaq was fat and healing on company time. In 04 Kobe was the best of the big 4 in the western playoffs, and Malone had an argument for second as Phil took Shaq off Yao and had Malone check him and then check KG and Tim the next rounds. Malone also put Shaq on blast for being lazy and not bringing it like he promised. They also don't comeback from down 0-2 at all without Kobe doing what he didn't that game 4 or making all the shots before Fosh in 5

Shaq says it on the DVDs, Kobe jabbed the west to death so eh could deliver the ok in the finals. It worked. They won like that, but it became problematic when Shaq just stopped trying all together throughout the year and came into camp damn near 400lbs and wanting to tell others how to work.

I was just pointing out that shaq and Kobe were dominate. Shaq was the primary though. He earned those MVP's. Not taking anything from Kobe or his career. Championships are a team thing and he played great on the team. MVP's are a personal thing and Shaq was the better single player.

PurpleJesus
06-21-2012, 01:36 AM
only 2 finals MVP's? you say that as if it were a bad thing

Hawkeye15
06-21-2012, 01:39 AM
I mean, its exactly why we need to put Kobe's career achievements into context, but I don't really get the point of the thread.

I think we know Kobe wasn't the best player on 3 of his chips, right? That doesn't change the fact that the man has 2 Final's MVP's, and hasn't enjoyed one of the greatest careers of any basketball player in history.

KB-Pau-DH2012
06-21-2012, 01:42 AM
I think it's a good thread by the OP. Nothing wrong that I see here. He asked a valid question and kept it unbiased.

kjoke
06-21-2012, 01:45 AM
I mean, its exactly why we need to put Kobe's career achievements into context, but I don't really get the point of the thread.

I think we know Kobe wasn't the best player on 3 of his chips, right? That doesn't change the fact that the man has 2 Final's MVP's, and hasn't enjoyed one of the greatest careers of any basketball player in history.

Actually, I assumed that Kobe had all the finals mvps, its actually when I saw someone on here's sig where kobe had 5 trophies and 2 Finals MVPs that I though about making a thread.

I started watching the NBA in 2003, so I really don't remember anything before that.

Hawkeye15
06-21-2012, 01:52 AM
Actually, I assumed that Kobe had all the finals mvps, its actually when I saw someone on here's sig where kobe had 5 trophies and 2 Finals MVPs that I though about making a thread.

I started watching the NBA in 2003, so I really don't remember anything before that.

Kobe/Laker fans will give you statistics that show Kobe was a dual reason why the Lakers with Shaq won 1 of their rings, but the fact is, the effect Shaq had on the other teams gameplan far outweighed any contribution Kobe gave during those first 3 championships.

But again, I don't get why we should think any less of Kobe at this point. Top 10 ever. The 2nd best SG to ever play. Unreal to watch him play live. There is no question concerning his place in NBA history, or his evaluation as a player.

Lakeshow24KB
06-21-2012, 01:53 AM
Kobe averaged only 15.6 PPG in the 2000 Finals because he went down with a serious ankle injury in the first qtr of game 2 in LA against the Pacers. I think he had only 3 pts so far until he went down.

He wanted to play in game 3 @ Indy, but Phil, Jerry West and Dr. Buss reprimanded the young afro Kobe and told him he couldn't play on a ankle the size of a balloon. The Lakers lost that game 3 w/o Kobe.

But he still decided to come back in game 4 @ Indy, where he was significantly still hobbling, but he still managed to take over when Shaq fouled out in OT, and gave the Lakers a 3-1.

Game 5, when the Lakers got blown out by 33, the effects of the ankle injury were still there as Kobe went just 4-20 FG (yikes).

Kobe was the 2nd scorer on that team, but he was the primary defender as he was trying to chase around and fighting through several screens (on a bum ankle) prime Reggie throughout the whole series.


In 2001, he was trying to guard AI while Shaq was having a field day against Mutombo and the legendary Matt Geiger.

Yes, Kobe's average dipped in the finals, but the first 3 rounds, he actually led the Lakers in scoring at 31.4 PPG, including back-to-back 40 pt games in the playoffs, both on the road (Game 4 @ Sacramento close out game of the 2nd round, and game 1 @ SAS of the WCF).


In 2002, Kobe was guarding prime Jason Kidd (who was a league MVP candidate that yr) and Kerry Kittles while Shaq was dominating the iconic Todd Macculogh.


In the 2001 WCF Sweep of the Defensive juggernaut Spurs, it wasn't Shaq who helped us destroy the Spurs, but rather Kobe and D-fish with his NBA record for most 3's made in a 4game series sweep (15-20 3pters, 75%).


If Kobe was a robin, then I must say, Kobe Bean Bryant is the greatest ROBIN, the greatest 2nd fiddle guy, the greatest sidekick in National Basketball Association history. And there's no shame in that, because when the big fella didn't have the gas to finish games, Kobe was right there. ANd Kobe always guarded the team's best offensive perimeter player. He shoulder a lot of responsibilities.


And a lot of Shaq's dunks came off of Kobe and Brian Shaw's passes. Shaw's lobs and Kobe penetration and passes to Shaq for countless amount of AND 1 Opportunities put Shaq at the best positions to score and get his opponents into foul trouble.





Listen, I love both Shaq and Kobe, so I'm not here to discredit either one. I love them both, and I miss that tandem. :(

Amen.

numba1CHANGsta
06-21-2012, 01:55 AM
Dude Kobe was like 21 when he won his first ring, why would they give him the Final's MVP if they had Shaq in his prime? Once again, individual accomplishments don't mean squat, it's all about the rings

To be honest id rather have Horry's career who has 7 rings over any hall of famer with no rings

popo85
06-21-2012, 01:56 AM
Kobe/Laker fans will give you statistics that show Kobe was a dual reason why the Lakers with Shaq won 1 of their rings, but the fact is, the effect Shaq had on the other teams gameplan far outweighed any contribution Kobe gave during those first 3 championships.

But again, I don't get why we should think any less of Kobe at this point. Top 10 ever. The 2nd best SG to ever play. Unreal to watch him play live. There is no question concerning his place in NBA history, or his evaluation as a player.

Well said.

ChitownBears22
06-21-2012, 01:57 AM
Dude Kobe was like 21 when he won his first ring, why would they give him the Final's MVP if they had Shaq in his prime? Once again, individual accomplishments don't mean squat, it's all about the rings

To be honest id rather have Horry's career who has 7 rings over any hall of famer with no rings

You would rather have Horry's career insted of Barkley, Malone, Stockton or Miller???????? Seems a little far fetched.

KB-Pau-DH2012
06-21-2012, 02:01 AM
You would rather have Horry's career insted of Barkley, Malone, Stockton or Miller???????? Seems a little far fetched.

Robert Horry is a top 10 role players of all time. He joins the likes of guys like D-Fish, Dennis Rodman, Dennis Johnson of the Celtics (who might I add was a Finals MVP with the Seattle Sonics prior to coming to Beantown) and a few others. All those guys are in a category of their own, while the ringless legends like Reggie, Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Ewing and Elgin are in a class of their own.

Can't really clump them together. Different roles, different amt of contributions and what was expected from both groups.

ChitownBears22
06-21-2012, 02:04 AM
Robert Horry is a top 10 role players of all time. He joins the likes of guys like D-Fish, Dennis Rodman, Dennis Johnson of the Celtics (who might I add was a Finals MVP with the Seattle Sonics prior to coming to Beantown) and a few others. All those guys are in a category of their own, while the ringless legends like Reggie, Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Ewing and Elgin are in a class of their own.

Can't really clump them together. Different roles, different amt of contributions and what was expected from both groups.

That is why I find the comment sort of asinine. While the rings are nice, I will take personal accolades and endorsement deals any day of the week.

GREATNESS ONE
06-21-2012, 02:07 AM
Kobe-Pau-DH-2012 FTW!!!!

BURAKOBE
06-21-2012, 02:39 AM
The dude should just be glad and happy that he has 5 rings. And i'm sure he is. That is all that matters.

TylerSL
06-21-2012, 04:39 AM
Kobe/Laker fans will give you statistics that show Kobe was a dual reason why the Lakers with Shaq won 1 of their rings, but the fact is, the effect Shaq had on the other teams gameplan far outweighed any contribution Kobe gave during those first 3 championships.

But again, I don't get why we should think any less of Kobe at this point. Top 10 ever. The 2nd best SG to ever play. Unreal to watch him play live. There is no question concerning his place in NBA history, or his evaluation as a player.

Is this the consensus? I have him close, but not quite top 10. He's 11 or 12 for me.

Just to clarify, my top ten is

MJ
Wilt
Magic
Hakeem
Kareem
Russell
Oscar
Duncan
Bird
Shaq

Bruno
06-21-2012, 05:38 AM
Is this the consensus? I have him close, but not quite top 10. He's 11 or 12 for me.

Just to clarify, my top ten is

MJ
Wilt
Magic
Hakeem
Kareem
Russell
Oscar
Duncan
Bird
Shaq

whats the argument for oscar over kobe? i agree with the other nine you listed.

Kobes a Killer
06-21-2012, 06:04 AM
Kobe averaged only 15.6 PPG in the 2000 Finals because he went down with a serious ankle injury in the first qtr of game 2 in LA against the Pacers. I think he had only 3 pts so far until he went down.

He wanted to play in game 3 @ Indy, but Phil, Jerry West and Dr. Buss reprimanded the young afro Kobe and told him he couldn't play on a ankle the size of a balloon. The Lakers lost that game 3 w/o Kobe.

But he still decided to come back in game 4 @ Indy, where he was significantly still hobbling, but he still managed to take over when Shaq fouled out in OT, and gave the Lakers a 3-1.

Game 5, when the Lakers got blown out by 33, the effects of the ankle injury were still there as Kobe went just 4-20 FG (yikes).

Kobe was the 2nd scorer on that team, but he was the primary defender as he was trying to chase around and fighting through several screens (on a bum ankle) prime Reggie throughout the whole series.


In 2001, he was trying to guard AI while Shaq was having a field day against Mutombo and the legendary Matt Geiger.

Yes, Kobe's average dipped in the finals, but the first 3 rounds, he actually led the Lakers in scoring at 31.4 PPG, including back-to-back 40 pt games in the playoffs, both on the road (Game 4 @ Sacramento close out game of the 2nd round, and game 1 @ SAS of the WCF).


In 2002, Kobe was guarding prime Jason Kidd (who was a league MVP candidate that yr) and Kerry Kittles while Shaq was dominating the iconic Todd Macculogh.


In the 2001 WCF Sweep of the Defensive juggernaut Spurs, it wasn't Shaq who helped us destroy the Spurs, but rather Kobe and D-fish with his NBA record for most 3's made in a 4game series sweep (15-20 3pters, 75%).


If Kobe was a robin, then I must say, Kobe Bean Bryant is the greatest ROBIN, the greatest 2nd fiddle guy, the greatest sidekick in National Basketball Association history. And there's no shame in that, because when the big fella didn't have the gas to finish games, Kobe was right there. ANd Kobe always guarded the team's best offensive perimeter player. He shoulder a lot of responsibilities.


And a lot of Shaq's dunks came off of Kobe and Brian Shaw's passes. Shaw's lobs and Kobe penetration and passes to Shaq for countless amount of AND 1 Opportunities put Shaq at the best positions to score and get his opponents into foul trouble.





Listen, I love both Shaq and Kobe, so I'm not here to discredit either one. I love them both, and I miss that tandem. :(


Love it... :worthy:

Good post

Andrew32
06-21-2012, 08:18 AM
Anyone who seriously says that Kobe "carried them through the West" should be banned immediately.

Shaq was better in 8/9 Western Conference Series and usually by a huge margin.

The only series in the entire 3peat you can even try and argue Kobe was better in was the 02 Spurs series.

Kobe was not even close to being the MVP VS the 01 Spurs.
Shaq was thoroughly outplaying Prime Duncan and DRob while facing the brunt of the Spurs defense and putting up big numbers.
Kobe was facing one of the worst perimeter defenses ever and was being guarded mostly on single coverage thanks to Shaq.

The "Gap" between Kobe/Shaq in 00 and 02 was easily larger then the Gap between Jordan/Prime Pippen.

00 Kobe = 21 / 4.5 / 4.5 on 51%TS
02 Kobe = 26 / 6 / 4.5 on 51%TS (48%TS prior to the Finals)

92 Pippen = 20 / 9 / 7 on 55%TS

Even in 01 where Kobe played at a much higher level Shaq was still many Tiers above him.
He was the teams offensive and defensive anchor.
He produced at a much higher level over the entire year.

He dominated and carried them in the Finals while facing one of the greatest defensive C's ever.
Kobe was not even very good in the Finals and making excuses for him that year instead of giving Shaq credit for carrying them with his incredibly dominant play against a GOAT defender is pathetic.

He was the one teams would double and triple team. He was the engine of the team and the one who provided the consistent offense and defensive anchoring.

It's not even close.
Kobe at his absolute Peak wasn't even 1/10th as good as 00-02 Shaq.

Kobe was Shaq's "Pippen" in 00 and 02 and he was "Hyper-Pippen" in 01.
A big reason he did so well in 01 was not only because he just played really well but because he was still under the radar and Shaq had just come off his MDE season and teams were only really paying attention to him.
Not to mention the perimeter defenses and defenders he faced that year especially in SAS were just terrible.

This overrating of early 00's Kobe by just using cherry picked numbers "always without actual context" is funny and sad.

Shaq was vastly better and more valuable in pretty much every series those years including the WC series.

Andrew32
06-21-2012, 08:41 AM
In 2001, he was trying to guard AI while Shaq was having a field day against Mutombo and the legendary Matt Geiger.

In the 2001 WCF Sweep of the Defensive juggernaut Spurs, it wasn't Shaq who helped us destroy the Spurs.

1. Kobe didn't guard Iverson and DPOY Mutombo is one of the greatest defensive C's of All-Time.
Shaq carried them in that Finals series putting up multiple GOAT performances against a GOAT Defender.
Kobe played quite poorly in that series and you can't make excuses for him.

2. Shaq was putting up 27 / 13 / 2.5apg on 55%TS against the greatest defensive front-court in the history of the game in Prime Duncan and a still very potent Robinson.
He kept Duncan/DRob tied to his waist and required constant double/triple teams which allowed D. Fish and Kobe to have a field day against the absolutely horrendous perimeter defense of the 01 Spurs.
O'neal was by far the MVP of that series.

mlisica19
06-21-2012, 09:10 AM
Kobe was a huge reason for those 3 championships and once he got older and matured he was able to be more of a dominating force. Who cares about awards, you win a championship you are a champion.

Kobe2324
06-21-2012, 09:21 AM
I would argue one of shaq's finals mvp should have gone to Kobe for many dif reasons but Shaq was a dominant player when they were winning titles. I am sure Kobe could have taken over and won the mvp's but he knew the gameplan of getting the ball to shaq and having himself take over in close games and late game situations gave them the best chance to win, Kobe was always the closer.

JordansBulls
06-21-2012, 09:23 AM
Why is it that Kobe's 5 championships are brought up, but never that he only has 2 finals MVP?

Not intended to bate, Kobe is obviously a great player and a multiple champion, just curious to know why he's known as such a dominate force, and only has 2 finals mvps/ Was Shaq that much more deserving? A lot of credit goes to Kobe, for something that he may not have been the most influential person at that time.
Because do people say Magic only has 3 rings because he has 3 finals mvp's when he won 5 total titles?

Hangtime
06-21-2012, 09:28 AM
Cedric Maxwell won the finals MVP in 81. Wasn't Bird, Parrish, and Mchale on that team?

Andrew32
06-21-2012, 09:34 AM
Kobe was always the closer.
Wrong.

Shaq led the 00-02 Lakers in 4th Q playoff scoring and total games/series closed.
Shaquille was the primary Closer for the 00 Lakers and the Co-Closer with Kobe in 02.

Points scored in the 4th Quarter from 2000-2002 (Playoffs)
Shaq - 388
Kobe - 351

Series in which a player was the "Main Closer" 2000-2002 (Playoffs)
Shaq - 3 Series (00 POR, 00 IND, 02 SAC)
Kobe - 1 Series (02 SAS)

Kevj77
06-21-2012, 11:27 AM
Shaq had a field day against weak bigs in the finals. I'll never discredit Shaq he was huge for LA, but the Lakers don't get out of the west three years in a row without Kobe.

He slayed the Spurs in 2001. He won game 4 in OT in 2000 after Shaq fouled out on a badly injured ankle. In 2002 the Lakers needed everything they had including favorable calls and a miracle Horry 3 to beat the Kings.

I guess the point is getting out of the West was harder than beating the sacrificial lamb the East provided

Kevj77
06-21-2012, 11:30 AM
Wrong.

Shaq led the 00-02 Lakers in 4th Q playoff scoring and total games/series closed.
Shaquille was the primary Closer for the 00 Lakers and the Co-Closer with Kobe in 02.This is so wrong. All you had to do was watch the actual games. Shaqs poor FT shooting made him great and the number 1 option for 46 minutes and a liabilty in the last two minutes in close games. He needed Kobe

Kashmir13579
06-21-2012, 11:32 AM
Shaq was such a beast.

celtNYpatsHeels
06-21-2012, 11:35 AM
How can you make a negative argument saying Kobe "only" has 2 finals MVPs... that is laughable.

Magic has 5 rings and he "only" won MVP 3 times, I guess we should look down on him too...


Also, Shaq is one of the top 10 players of all time and he was absolutely dominant when in his Prime (LA)

Bos_Sports4Life
06-21-2012, 12:14 PM
Kobe is currently borderline top 10 ever imo

Magic,Bird,Shaq,Russell,Hakeem,Kareem,MJ,Duncan,Wi lt being ahead and a few guys close..

But, He was CLEARLY the Robin to Shaqs batman during those 3 title runs..

1999-2000



Shaq- 18.6 Win shares
Kobe- 10.6 Win shares


2000-2001

Shaq- 14.9 Win shares
Kobe- 11.3 Win shares


2001-2002

Shaq- 13.2 Win shares
Kobe- 12.7 Win shares

(Shaq Had more Win shares DESPITE playing 13 games less and 641 Min)

Now, him being #2 doesn't mean a ton. He was the #1 player for 3 titles and #2 for 2 titles. Either way hes going down as top 10 (In my top 8)

Andrew32
06-21-2012, 01:37 PM
Shaq had a field day against weak bigs in the finals.

He slayed the Spurs in 2001.

I guess the point is getting out of the West was harder than beating the sacrificial lamb the East provided

DPOY Mutombo is a weak big?
You are talking about one of the greatest defensive C's ever... pretty idiotic to say that.
Even in 00 Shaq faced All-Star Dale Davis who was very big, athletic and a great physical defender.

Kobe was nothing short of unimpressive in the 01 Finals and cost them G1.

Shaq's dominance against a GOAT Defender is why they won that series he carried them on his back the same way he carried LAL past a very strong pacers team in 00.

Kobe didn't slay the Spurs.
Shaq was the main reason they beat the Spurs in 01 and was unquestionably the MVP of that series.

Shaquille was dominant in every series not just the Finals and he was the MVP of 11/12 series they played in from 00-02.
The 02 Spurs series is the only one where you might be able to argue for Kobe, the others aren't even close.

Shaq was the consistent dominant offensive force, the engine of their team.
Shaq was the teams defensive anchor.
Shaq was the one opposing teams would game plan to stop and would double/triple team making life much easier for Kobe and the roleplayers.

Hawkeye15
06-21-2012, 01:41 PM
Is this the consensus? I have him close, but not quite top 10. He's 11 or 12 for me.

Just to clarify, my top ten is

MJ
Wilt
Magic
Hakeem
Kareem
Russell
Oscar
Duncan
Bird
Shaq


I have him over Duncan and Oscar. The consensus is at least top 12, but most have him top 10.

Federal Reserve
06-21-2012, 01:45 PM
Kobe wouldn't have a single championship if he didn't have the best front court in the NBA. If he played in his prime on Lebron's Cavs' teams, he wouldn't even take them to the playoffs.

TylerSL
06-21-2012, 05:56 PM
whats the argument for oscar over kobe? i agree with the other nine you listed.

Averaged a trip-dub for his first five years.

TylerSL
06-21-2012, 05:59 PM
I have him over Duncan and Oscar. The consensus is at least top 12, but most have him top 10.

I have Duncan over him because IMO great big > great wing, and I value the PF position most of all. Oscar because of averaging trip-dub in first five years.

knightstemplar
06-21-2012, 06:14 PM
Kareem, Bird, and Hakeem also "only" have 2 Finals MVPs

knightstemplar
06-21-2012, 06:16 PM
Kobe wouldn't have a single championship if he didn't have the best front court in the NBA. If he played in his prime on Lebron's Cavs' teams, he wouldn't even take them to the playoffs.

In the Eastern Conference? :laugh:

Wow, go see a doctor sir

topdog
06-21-2012, 06:16 PM
If Kobe was a robin, then I must say, Kobe Bean Bryant is the greatest ROBIN, the greatest 2nd fiddle guy, the greatest sidekick in National Basketball Association history.

I thought Shaq was Superman? Which makes Kobe Batman. They were the Justice League of America! ...I think Fisher was Aquaman or something

tapajafri
06-21-2012, 06:18 PM
rings mean great team. mvp's mean great player.

lebron > kobe

Bruno
06-21-2012, 06:26 PM
oh man. i'll be back here in a few hours.

Vinylman
06-21-2012, 06:39 PM
Only fans of teams who suck actually care about this kinda stuff

16 championships and counting

Mikan, west, wilt, kareem, magic, worthy, shaq, kobe, Gasol

who cares....

the banners in the rafters is all that matters

let the haters hate

RaiderLakersA's
06-21-2012, 07:00 PM
Kobe averaged only 15.6 PPG in the 2000 Finals because he went down with a serious ankle injury in the first qtr of game 2 in LA against the Pacers. I think he had only 3 pts so far until he went down.

He wanted to play in game 3 @ Indy, but Phil, Jerry West and Dr. Buss reprimanded the young afro Kobe and told him he couldn't play on a ankle the size of a balloon. The Lakers lost that game 3 w/o Kobe.

But he still decided to come back in game 4 @ Indy, where he was significantly still hobbling, but he still managed to take over when Shaq fouled out in OT, and gave the Lakers a 3-1.

Game 5, when the Lakers got blown out by 33, the effects of the ankle injury were still there as Kobe went just 4-20 FG (yikes).

Kobe was the 2nd scorer on that team, but he was the primary defender as he was trying to chase around and fighting through several screens (on a bum ankle) prime Reggie throughout the whole series.


In 2001, he was trying to guard AI while Shaq was having a field day against Mutombo and the legendary Matt Geiger.

Yes, Kobe's average dipped in the finals, but the first 3 rounds, he actually led the Lakers in scoring at 31.4 PPG, including back-to-back 40 pt games in the playoffs, both on the road (Game 4 @ Sacramento close out game of the 2nd round, and game 1 @ SAS of the WCF).


In 2002, Kobe was guarding prime Jason Kidd (who was a league MVP candidate that yr) and Kerry Kittles while Shaq was dominating the iconic Todd Macculogh.


In the 2001 WCF Sweep of the Defensive juggernaut Spurs, it wasn't Shaq who helped us destroy the Spurs, but rather Kobe and D-fish with his NBA record for most 3's made in a 4game series sweep (15-20 3pters, 75%).


If Kobe was a robin, then I must say, Kobe Bean Bryant is the greatest ROBIN, the greatest 2nd fiddle guy, the greatest sidekick in National Basketball Association history. And there's no shame in that, because when the big fella didn't have the gas to finish games, Kobe was right there. ANd Kobe always guarded the team's best offensive perimeter player. He shoulder a lot of responsibilities.


And a lot of Shaq's dunks came off of Kobe and Brian Shaw's passes. Shaw's lobs and Kobe penetration and passes to Shaq for countless amount of AND 1 Opportunities put Shaq at the best positions to score and get his opponents into foul trouble.





Listen, I love both Shaq and Kobe, so I'm not here to discredit either one. I love them both, and I miss that tandem. :(

This. :clap:

/closethread

RaiderLakersA's
06-21-2012, 07:03 PM
rings mean great team. mvp's mean great player.

lebron > kobe

And yet, if the Heat win tonight I'll be the first to say that LBJ is the best player in the game today. No question.

That said, until he climbs to that mountaintop at least 3 times, I don't want to hear about LeBron. Yes, it's a moving target, but for the truly Great Ones, it always was/is.

Hawkeye15
06-21-2012, 07:04 PM
I have Duncan over him because IMO great big > great wing, and I value the PF position most of all. Oscar because of averaging trip-dub in first five years.

Just because you personally value something doesn't mean the majority does, but I understand your viewpoint.

Pace. Adjust it, and Oscar's numbers aren't even LeBron worthy.

TylerSL
06-21-2012, 09:32 PM
Just because you personally value something doesn't mean the majority does, but I understand your viewpoint.

Pace. Adjust it, and Oscar's numbers aren't even LeBron worthy.

I really don't see why anyone would put Kobe over Shaq or Duncan. They give you size, score at a good/great clip, and anchor the defense. Kobe only does one of those. I'll take the big every day of the week and twice on sunday.

@ bolded- How is one supposed to take that? Are you suggesting LeBron's numbers aren't impressive?

kblo247
06-21-2012, 11:15 PM
Kobe wouldn't have a single championship if he didn't have the best front court in the NBA. If he played in his prime on Lebron's Cavs' teams, he wouldn't even take them to the playoffs.

Same guy who finished over 500 with Luke, Smush, and Kwame starting and Cook, Sasha, George/Evans as his main bench players. You didn't evene have to be 500 to get in the eastern playoffs when LeBrons Cavs were doing it.

The only year LA missed the postseason, Kobe got hurt with a high ankle sprain and ligament damage, and before he got hurt, the team was a .5 game from fifth place. He, Lamar, and Caron only played 44 games together all year in 05 and they weren't even full games as Kobe and LO left two Kobe could easily get more out of Larry Hughes/Z or Ben/Wally or Mo/Jamison especially out east

kblo247
06-21-2012, 11:23 PM
I really don't see why anyone would put Kobe over Shaq or Duncan. They give you size, score at a good/great clip, and anchor the defense. Kobe only does one of those. I'll take the big every day of the week and twice on sunday.

@ bolded- How is one supposed to take that? Are you suggesting LeBron's numbers aren't impressive?

Longevity as Kobe has logged more minutes and games, consistency in numbers as Duncan has fell off and been rested for being outright old, head to head dominance when it matters to the point Pop has said he's been the best player in their series multiple times even when Shaq was with him , ability to repeat and sucessfully defend titles or at least make the finals b2b years, less losses with hca ~ argument over Tim IMO

Kobe has more rings than Shaq, better record since the breakup, the fact Kobe needed to develop for him to even win as Penny/Nick/Eddie while all all stars weren't enough and he out refused to have Kidd (West gripe with him) on his team to share the spotlight, and the way Shaq left LA and ended his career as a journeyman was bad. That said, I get an argument for Shaq being better than Kobe and Kobe being better than Shaq, but to me there is no argument for Tim being as good as either of them.

The whole Kobe vs Shaq thing also comes down to this for me. Having had them both and seen them both at their best I can always say Shaq had me wanting more and wondering, as he could have been better, the best ever perhaps if he wanted to work or put in effort. The thing with Kob is there is not a time I have ever questioned if he gave LA and the league everything his body and mind had, as there were guys with obvious physical advantages over him like Tracy and Vince or even LeBron and Wade, but Kobe ia stilly asked about 16 seasons in with 19 seasons worth of minutes on his body as one of the absolute best. There is just much more respect for that to me, as Kobe is basically the Kareem of SGs longevity wise

KB-Pau-DH2012
06-21-2012, 11:26 PM
kblo247......wins!

Hawkeye15
06-22-2012, 12:18 AM
I really don't see why anyone would put Kobe over Shaq or Duncan. They give you size, score at a good/great clip, and anchor the defense. Kobe only does one of those. I'll take the big every day of the week and twice on sunday.

@ bolded- How is one supposed to take that? Are you suggesting LeBron's numbers aren't impressive?

I put Kobe with or above Duncan.

No, how could you possibly ask me that, knowing my stance on Bron? I am saying put into perspective Oscar's numbers knowing the pace/defense he faced. They don't stack up to the current best player.

dh144498
06-22-2012, 12:22 AM
kobe destroyed the Western conference while Shaq was getting destroyed by defenders. Then the mighty Shaq went on to dominate the weak Eastern conference teams in the finals, thus the FMVPs from 2000-2002.