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View Full Version : With 0.8 left on the clock and u get a jump ball why is there a rule to add 5 sec?



Jayrich28
06-20-2012, 01:16 AM
I find that weird ....that cancels out good defense. Never seen that rule t til tonight

ChitownBears22
06-20-2012, 01:17 AM
Because it is rigged.

Cano4prez
06-20-2012, 01:18 AM
Because it is rigged.

This

dnewguy
06-20-2012, 01:18 AM
O boy.....

Raps18-19 Champ
06-20-2012, 01:24 AM
It's always been in place. If there is a jump ball with less than 5 seconds left in the shot clock, they add more seconds.

Jayrich28
06-20-2012, 01:24 AM
O boy.....

Lol...i know but that seems weird if the ball goes out of bounds u dont get it more time...only a foul or kick ball resets the clock

Jayrich28
06-20-2012, 01:26 AM
It's always been in place. If there is a jump ball with less than 5 seconds left in the shot clock, they add more seconds.

But y that punishes good d?

JC_
06-20-2012, 01:29 AM
But y that punishes good d?

It's not punishing good d. OKC actually won the tip but instead of Durant going for the ball Battier was able to tip to Chalmers.

heyman321
06-20-2012, 01:30 AM
Because it's ridiculous to get a shot off in 0.8 seconds off a jump ball. Same reason why they add time to the shot clock if you get fouled.

hugepatsfan
06-20-2012, 01:35 AM
Because it's ridiculous to get a shot off in 0.8 seconds off a jump ball. Same reason why they add time to the shot clock if you get fouled.

There's one major difference. If the D is called for a foul, it makes sense to give the offense time. A jump ball is forced when the D makes a great play. A jump ball called w/ .8 sec on the shot clock benefits the offense even though it is the result of good D. It's a dumb rule IMO.

Jayrich28
06-20-2012, 01:38 AM
Because it's ridiculous to get a shot off in 0.8 seconds off a jump ball. Same reason why they add time to the shot clock if you get fouled.

Foul is doing something wrong, jump ball is not so the offense gets more time cuz what...thats not the defense problem if u cant shoot in that time

Toxeryll
06-20-2012, 01:40 AM
so westbrook has enough time to foul

justinnum1
06-20-2012, 01:41 AM
so westbrook has enough time to foul

lmao

NYKnicksAllDay
06-20-2012, 01:41 AM
I didn't understand it either. It honestly makes no sense to me. And yes, I'd still feel the same way if the roles were reversed and someone from the Heat tied up a Thunder player and forced a jump ball. It seems unfair to the defense, but whatever.

Jayrich28
06-20-2012, 01:44 AM
so westbrook has enough time to foul

Lol that was funny

meloman1592
06-20-2012, 01:47 AM
i didn't understand that call either

ChitownBears22
06-20-2012, 01:49 AM
Stupid rule, but no one ever said anything about it until tonight.

NYKnicksAllDay
06-20-2012, 01:50 AM
Stupid rule, but no one ever said anything about it until tonight.

But how many people knew that was a rule before tonight? I'd never seen that situation before.

Jayrich28
06-20-2012, 01:53 AM
Stupid rule, but no one ever said anything about it until tonight.

Never saw it b4 ,jump balls dont even happen that often yet alone with under five on the shot clock

Raps18-19 Champ
06-20-2012, 01:55 AM
But y that punishes good d?

It's like when you get fouled on the floor late in the shot clock. They add time.

Is it stupid, maybe? But that's how it works.

NYKnicksAllDay
06-20-2012, 01:58 AM
It's like when you get fouled on the floor late in the shot clock. They add time.

Is it stupid, maybe? But that's how it works.

That's a little different though. When you foul an opposing player, it makes sense to punish the team that fouled. But a jump ball shouldn't lead to the defensive team being "punished" for a good defensive play.

Jayrich28
06-20-2012, 01:59 AM
If that was the case the defender is betta off deflecting the ball outta bounds than trying to grab it

davids22
06-20-2012, 02:19 AM
If that was the case the defender is betta off deflecting the ball outta bounds than trying to grab it

Theoretically, yeah, but no defender is thinking "Oh I know this is going to be a jump ball so I'm just going to hit it out." They are fighting for possession of the ball.

jetsfan28
06-20-2012, 02:57 AM
Because it's ridiculous to get a shot off in 0.8 seconds off a jump ball. Same reason why they add time to the shot clock if you get fouled.

The way to avoid that is by not letting the D to tie you up 23.2 seconds into your possession. It's ridiculous to make the D stop the other team making completely legal plays (as opposed to a foul or kick ball) for close to 29 seconds instead of 24. It's ridiculous that if the defender lets go of the ball there, it's a shot clock violation, but if he instead makes a better play and ties the guy up it's a jump ball and the offense gets extra time.

Chronz
06-20-2012, 03:06 AM
Thats why I thought Harden was wrong for tying him up, seemed to me like he could have just deflected the ball and force a shot clock violation. At the time I thought it was the dumbest play of the game, then Westbrook happened.

gotoHcarolina52
06-20-2012, 03:10 AM
so westbrook has enough time to foul

:laugh:

spurs4#5
06-20-2012, 03:10 AM
So if a team is down 2 points and plays great d and theres 4 seconds left on the game clock and they tie up the person with the ball with lets say 1 second left on the shot clock and the offensive team wins the jump ball the defensive team is now forced to foul and the offense is put into a situation to make it a 4 point lead all because the defensive team made a great defensive play?.................nba rules and regulations=logic beyond our comprehension

MickeyMgl
06-20-2012, 03:34 AM
It's not punishing good d. OKC actually won the tip but instead of Durant going for the ball Battier was able to tip to Chalmers.

Who won the tip is irrelevant. It does punish good defense, because the result is the offensive team got 29 seconds to shoot instead of 24, and without the extra seconds there would have been no time for Chalmers to get the tipped ball.

MickeyMgl
06-20-2012, 03:37 AM
Because it's ridiculous to get a shot off in 0.8 seconds off a jump ball. Same reason why they add time to the shot clock if you get fouled.

That's a FOUL, which should come with a penalty to the defense that committed the foul. This is tied up ball, which is the result of good defense, which should never be penalized. No comparison.

MickeyMgl
06-20-2012, 03:43 AM
In fact, I'm pretty certain that I've seen similar situations - a jump ball with less than five seconds on the shot clock - where the clock was NOT reset, and announcers pointed out that the team had to tip it toward the basket or shoot right away. Not 100%, but pretty sure.

Chronz
06-20-2012, 03:57 AM
In fact, I'm pretty certain that I've seen similar situations - a jump ball with less than five seconds on the shot clock - where the clock was NOT reset, and announcers pointed out that the team had to tip it toward the basket or shoot right away. Not 100%, but pretty sure.

I thought I did too but Ive also seen this happen before so maybe there are certain stipulations. This is all I could find on the matter:



2003-04
• The 24-second clock shall remain the same as when play was interrupted or reset to 5 seconds, whichever is greater, any time on jump balls retained by the offensive team as the result of a held ball caused by the defense.

SugeKnight
06-20-2012, 04:01 AM
Theoretically, yeah, but no defender is thinking "Oh I know this is going to be a jump ball so I'm just going to hit it out." They are fighting for possession of the ball.

That sig is hella funny. I remember that episode :laugh:

sunsfan88
06-20-2012, 04:24 AM
Its not punishing good defense.

If the defense was so good, then they should have got the steal instead of it being a jump ball situation in the first place.

sventhedog
06-20-2012, 04:31 AM
they should make a rule about refs reminding players about shotclock and foul situations. - russell westbrook

JC_
06-20-2012, 04:39 AM
Who won the tip is irrelevant. It does punish good defense, because the result is the offensive team got 29 seconds to shoot instead of 24, and without the extra seconds there would have been no time for Chalmers to get the tipped ball.

Well then the defense should avoid that when the shot clock is under 5 seconds then. Just like the defense should avoid kick balls when the shot clock is low and the ball is being inbounded.

CavsYanksDuke
06-20-2012, 04:57 AM
Because David Stern is evil and obviously hates you and all NBA fans, duh. GOOOOD, THE NBA IS SOOOOOOO RIGGED.

GOON MUSIC
06-20-2012, 10:15 AM
so westbrook has enough time to foul
Lol

grkmaster
06-20-2012, 10:20 AM
I swear I was asking the same question last night and was going to create this thread this morning. How does this help the defense? The defense did a great job at forcing a shot that was a airball and then because the offensive team gets a jumpball it should reset to 5? if your going to reset it, reset it to like 2 seconds. 5 is an eternity to get a good shot.

Pathetic rule IMO and and should become a question/debate with the league to alter this in some way

nycericanguy
06-20-2012, 10:30 AM
Thats why I thought Harden was wrong for tying him up, seemed to me like he could have just deflected the ball and force a shot clock violation. At the time I thought it was the dumbest play of the game, then Westbrook happened.

MIA is the "experienced" team now.

OKC has left me scratching my head so many times late in games. The Harden missed layup, the Harden tie up, the Westbrook foul... they'll win these games next year I think...

but yea the rule doesn't make sense to me either... MIA got bailed out on that call... but Harden shouldn't have tied him up... but then again, its hard to think of those scenarios and rules as a player late in games.

LAKobeBryant
06-20-2012, 10:39 AM
i swear i remember jump balls in less than 1 second and teams were had to throw it up. i can't remember this 5 second rule.

AntiG
06-20-2012, 10:46 AM
agree with the OP. Really stupid rule and it punishes good defense and rewards the offense for lack of efficiency.

daleja424
06-20-2012, 10:49 AM
1. A jump ball is not a good defensive play. It is a nuetral play. It means both teams gain simultaneous possession. Based on that alone it is not at all suprising more time is added to the clock. In fact, there is even a argument to be made that the clock should reset to 24 since both teams have possession...and possession resets the clock.

2. Calling a jumpball a good defensive play is a little silly really. Can someone explain how forcing a jumpball as the defensive team is any different than forcing it as the offensive team? Both sides made a play that could possibly get them a possession that they wouldn't have otherwise had. Lets say the ball is lose and two guys dive on the floor to save the possession and there is a jumpball. How on earth is that any less of a good play by the offensive player attacking the lose ball?

3. Also, there is some ambiguity as to when a jumpball is actually called. A held ball for a half of a second is called sometimes on a blocked shot...but other times it requires two guys wrestling for several seconds. Puts refs in a tough spot. What if a ref waited a little longer to call the jumpball and that took the clock under a second but a different ref would whistle the play dead a little sooner resulting in 2 seconds on the clock.

4. Finally, this is not a new rule. This rule has been in place since Lebron's rookie year. Every Thunder player on the court at that time wasn't even in the league under the old rule. Harden needs to be more aware of the situation there.

There are a lot of good reasons for this rule...and only reason against it that I can tell so far in this thread: The rule helped the HEAT this time so it must be changed!!!! :facepalm:

natelpete
06-20-2012, 10:56 AM
Doesn't matter if it's always been in place. Let's just put it in the "rigged" column, blame the refs/David Stern, and use it as another reason to discredit Lebron.

Sounds about right.

Jayrich28
06-20-2012, 12:52 PM
1. A jump ball is not a good defensive play. It is a nuetral play. It means both teams gain simultaneous possession. Based on that alone it is not at all suprising more time is added to the clock. In fact, there is even a argument to be made that the clock should reset to 24 since both teams have possession...and possession resets the clock.

2. Calling a jumpball a good defensive play is a little silly really. Can someone explain how forcing a jumpball as the defensive team is any different than forcing it as the offensive team? Both sides made a play that could possibly get them a possession that they wouldn't have otherwise had. Lets say the ball is lose and two guys dive on the floor to save the possession and there is a jumpball. How on earth is that any less of a good play by the offensive player attacking the lose ball?

3. Also, there is some ambiguity as to when a jumpball is actually called. A held ball for a half of a second is called sometimes on a blocked shot...but other times it requires two guys wrestling for several seconds. Puts refs in a tough spot. What if a ref waited a little longer to call the jumpball and that took the clock under a second but a different ref would whistle the play dead a little sooner resulting in 2 seconds on the clock.

4. Finally, this is not a new rule. This rule has been in place since Lebron's rookie year. Every Thunder player on the court at that time wasn't even in the league under the old rule. Harden needs to be more aware of the situation there.

There are a lot of good reasons for this rule...and only reason against it that I can tell sol
far in this thread: The rule helped the HEAT this time so it must be changed!!!! :facepalm:

Why did u say a jump ball is not a good defensive play...so if a guy blocks a shot before it leaves the players hand a results in a jump ball thats not a good play. Or how about if a player is dribbling toward the hope and u tie up the ball b4 he can get off a shot thats not good d.
Then u said the rule was put in ,in lbj rookie season well if thats true than its still a new rule u act like lebron been in the league 20 yrs.
I wanna know why that was added what happen b4 that year to make them add or change this rule ?

tht_one_guy
06-20-2012, 02:14 PM
a jump ball is a good defensive play and bad offensive play i was always told it is half a steal (tht is wht coaches always told me)there is no way it is a neutral play u dont get a jump ball by playing good offense as for the harden being more aware argument tht is just stupid ur not thinking about tht when ur going for the ball especially when ur down in the game he was just hustling and trying to rebound

DeRaptor95
06-20-2012, 02:32 PM
so westbrook has enough time to foul

+1 roflmao

mvb815
06-20-2012, 02:49 PM
1. A jump ball is not a good defensive play. It is a nuetral play. It means both teams gain simultaneous possession. Based on that alone it is not at all suprising more time is added to the clock. In fact, there is even a argument to be made that the clock should reset to 24 since both teams have possession...and possession resets the clock.

2. Calling a jumpball a good defensive play is a little silly really. Can someone explain how forcing a jumpball as the defensive team is any different than forcing it as the offensive team? Both sides made a play that could possibly get them a possession that they wouldn't have otherwise had. Lets say the ball is lose and two guys dive on the floor to save the possession and there is a jumpball. How on earth is that any less of a good play by the offensive player attacking the lose ball?

3. Also, there is some ambiguity as to when a jumpball is actually called. A held ball for a half of a second is called sometimes on a blocked shot...but other times it requires two guys wrestling for several seconds. Puts refs in a tough spot. What if a ref waited a little longer to call the jumpball and that took the clock under a second but a different ref would whistle the play dead a little sooner resulting in 2 seconds on the clock.

4. Finally, this is not a new rule. This rule has been in place since Lebron's rookie year. Every Thunder player on the court at that time wasn't even in the league under the old rule. Harden needs to be more aware of the situation there.

There are a lot of good reasons for this rule...and only reason against it that I can tell so far in this thread: The rule helped the HEAT this time so it must be changed!!!! :facepalm:

so true, if harden would have kicked the ball, reset the shot clock to 14, and miami scored in that time, this thread would be about how stupid kick ball violations are and how they don't reward good defensive plays

daleja424
06-20-2012, 02:55 PM
a jump ball is a good defensive play and bad offensive play i was always told it is half a steal (tht is wht coaches always told me)there is no way it is a neutral play u dont get a jump ball by playing good offense as for the harden being more aware argument tht is just stupid ur not thinking about tht when ur going for the ball especially when ur down in the game he was just hustling and trying to rebound

I repeat... for a jump ball to occur it must be ruled that both teams possessed the ball. When the other team possesses the ball the shot clock resets on any other play. The rule is in place, b/c if the offensive team retains the ball, they essentially get back the 3 seconds when the ball was possessed by the other team during their possession. For that reason, whenever the clock is below 5 seconds it goes back to 3 seconds to refelct that the offensive team didnt actually have possession for 3 seconds there.

Make sense yet?

Shark
06-20-2012, 02:58 PM
Actually what happend is David Stern made a phone call to the officiating staff and said he had just updated the rule book to increase it to 5 seconds.

On a more serious note, I find it very stupid that they increase it to 5 seconds. Had the thunder just let Miami's player have the ball(which by the way, he was on the floor) Miami WOULD have NOT even got a shot off to begin with. For Miami to be even given an opportunity at a jump ball and increased time, thats just rediculous.

NYMetros
06-20-2012, 02:59 PM
I agree, stupid rule.

daleja424
06-20-2012, 03:01 PM
except that the HEAT had possession of the ball (presumably) with 3.8 seconds left when Harden grabbed on to it. Those three seconds during which both players possessed the ball cannot be taken from Miami, b/c it was just as much OKCs ball as Miami's. That is my uinderstanding of the rule. How can time be ticking off Miami's possession while Harden has possession of the ball?

mvb815
06-20-2012, 03:02 PM
except that the HEAT had possession of the ball (presumably) with 3.8 seconds left when Harden grabbed on to it. Those three seconds during which both players possessed the ball cannot be taken from Miami, b/c it was just as much OKCs ball as Miami's. That is my uinderstanding of the rule. How can time be ticking off Miami's possession while Harden has possession of the ball?

nevermind you're right

YOLO
06-20-2012, 03:04 PM
It's a well known fact that for Stern to rig the game without being too noticeable, he needs at least 4 seconds for each foul scheme he comes up with. If it comes down to a jump ball and the team Stern wants to win is losing, he can change the game.

LeonFSU
06-20-2012, 03:08 PM
1. A jump ball is not a good defensive play. It is a nuetral play. It means both teams gain simultaneous possession. Based on that alone it is not at all suprising more time is added to the clock. In fact, there is even a argument to be made that the clock should reset to 24 since both teams have possession...and possession resets the clock.

Simultaneous possession after the offensive team loses sole possession. How is that neutral? Where is the argument to reset the shot clock? So when the clock gets low and the offensive player is in bad position to take a shot, he should just hold the ball out where the defensive player can grab it and force a jump ball so the shot clock to reset? There is no change in possession that would warrant resetting the shot clock. Just absurd.


2. Calling a jumpball a good defensive play is a little silly really. Can someone explain how forcing a jumpball as the defensive team is any different than forcing it as the offensive team? Both sides made a play that could possibly get them a possession that they wouldn't have otherwise had. Lets say the ball is lose and two guys dive on the floor to save the possession and there is a jumpball. How on earth is that any less of a good play by the offensive player attacking the lose ball?
This makes little sense really. Its not a good defensive play but you admit that forcing a jump ball gives the team a chance at possession that they wouldn't otherwise have? It would be a good play if the offensive player dove on the floor (so long as he didn't cause the near TO) and forced a jump ball or if the offensive player forced a jump ball after a missed shot, but that is no reason to justify changing the shot clock. The offensive team has 24 seconds to get a shot off, there is no good argument to adding time.


3. Also, there is some ambiguity as to when a jumpball is actually called. A held ball for a half of a second is called sometimes on a blocked shot...but other times it requires two guys wrestling for several seconds. Puts refs in a tough spot. What if a ref waited a little longer to call the jumpball and that took the clock under a second but a different ref would whistle the play dead a little sooner resulting in 2 seconds on the clock. Why does this matter? The offensive team should get a shot off within 24 seconds. If an offensive player gets tied up why should he rewarded with more time on the shot clock?


4. Finally, this is not a new rule. This rule has been in place since Lebron's rookie year. Every Thunder player on the court at that time wasn't even in the league under the old rule. Harden needs to be more aware of the situation there. This is a really stupid rule. Forcing a jump ball by the defense is a good play in isolation (of course if the offense gets an offensive rebound that the defensive player should have had, forcing a jump ball isn't better than having actually gotten the rebound). Its similar to tipping a pass out of bounds in that it breaks up the offensive rhythm. The offensive team should not be rewarded with any additional seconds to the shot clock.


There are a lot of good reasons for this rule...and only reason against it that I can tell so far in this thread: The rule helped the HEAT this time so it must be changed!!!! :facepalm: Yep, that's the only one. Rules should only be considered for their impact on the Heat.

GSWFanInLA
06-20-2012, 04:04 PM
It's a stupid rule but it's been in place for a while, I remember it in game 1 of 2010 finals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKxsFaCGNzM

Around the 20 second mark.

But yeah it's a dumb rule because it basically punishes excellent defense.

John Walls Era
06-20-2012, 04:15 PM
Wasn't completely good D. Defensive rebounding is a huge part in defense.

twin4life
06-20-2012, 04:17 PM
Because it is rigged.

Yup its rigged that Westbrook didnt know the situation... :facepalm:

dalton749
06-20-2012, 04:24 PM
because it would make the jump ball pointless. they jump touch the ball and the buzzer goes before anyone gets possesion

Sssmush
06-20-2012, 04:27 PM
it was yet another mistake for Harden to go after that loose ball. If Harden was as savvy and tricky as we've given him credit for, he is aware and composed enough to let Haslem squeeze the ball for 0.8 second and OKC gets the ball back.

Westbrooks foul is somewhat understandable... Chalmers was going to get a 3 point shot off right there...

tht_one_guy
06-20-2012, 06:19 PM
I repeat... for a jump ball to occur it must be ruled that both teams possessed the ball. When the other team possesses the ball the shot clock resets on any other play. The rule is in place, b/c if the offensive team retains the ball, they essentially get back the 3 seconds when the ball was possessed by the other team during their possession. For that reason, whenever the clock is below 5 seconds it goes back to 3 seconds to refelct that the offensive team didnt actually have possession for 3 seconds there.

Make sense yet?

k i will make this simple if 2 women r fighting for a shirt pulling it back and forth in a clothing store they both have there hands on it neither one of them possesses it until they can get the other one to let go so no a jump shouldnt reset the shot clock because the ball hasnt changed hands it is more like a mutual share and if one lady had her hand on the shirt first when the second lady grabbed it the possession would not change until the second lady got control and ran the other way until then u just have a scuffle for the object with no control being relinquished does this clear things up for u and yes this rule in the nba is a bad one cause the offense shouldnt be rewarded for a mistake

IversonIsKrazy
06-20-2012, 07:23 PM
It's a dumb rule. Tbh, I dont think a kickball should reset the shot-clock either, it should just be a foul can reset it.

Missing56&33
06-20-2012, 08:19 PM
Sorry *** Harden should have gotten the rebound. He completely disappeared in these Finals.

Hangtime
06-20-2012, 08:54 PM
I don't have a problem with the rule. If you were able to tie the player up and a jump ball is called then you have given your team at least an opportunity to win the tip which would result in a turnover. Which is why it's important to win the tip. When the clock is winding down, there's still a chance that the offensive player gets that shot off, so you do whatever to keep that from happening. Westbrook made the crucial mistake, and as a player you have to be aware of the situation, plain and simple. I don't blame Harden one bit for the tie up.

SportsNY
06-20-2012, 08:57 PM
The referees should've told the players so they were aware. Then again, the refs are on the Heat's payroll.

Hangtime
06-20-2012, 08:58 PM
Thats why I thought Harden was wrong for tying him up, seemed to me like he could have just deflected the ball and force a shot clock violation. At the time I thought it was the dumbest play of the game, then Westbrook happened.

I think it's just a player's instinct to try and steal the ball which is what he was trying to do. Instead they ended up fighting over the ball resulting in the tie up. Clock winding down or not you try to take the ball from the defender not really being aware of the seconds on the clock. Westbrook was the one with the brainfart.

IndyRealist
06-20-2012, 09:42 PM
Because with a jump ball technically both teams had posession. It could be argued that on a jump ball the clock should reset.

AsfanSince99
06-20-2012, 10:55 PM
Yep, stupid rule that should be abolished.

dodie53
06-20-2012, 11:09 PM
both teams have possesion when there is a jump ball.