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View Full Version : Westbrook: 32 Field Goal Attempts, Only 3 Free Throw Attempts



amos1er
06-20-2012, 12:41 AM
Westbrook shoot the ball 32 times making 20, but only went to the line 3 times.

Wade shot 19 times went to the line 9 times

Lebron shot 20 times went to the line 8 times

Durant shot 19 times went to the line 9 times

Sefolosha shot 7 times went to the line 3 times

Chalmers shot 9 times went to the line 5 times

Harden shot 10 times and went to the line 4 times

Don't even try to use the excuse that Westbrook doesn't attack the rack because he does so more than anyone on the Thunder, and pretty much equal to Wade and Lebron. Yet he is just didn't get the same treatment from the officials tonight for some reason. Anyone who watched the game saw him go to the rack time after time get hammered and just not get the call. Westbrook was easily the MVP of game 4, he just didn't get the calls. There were many other calls that went the Heats way tonight, this is just the thing that stood out to me the most.

BallIsAll
06-20-2012, 12:43 AM
he shouldnt shoot the ball 32 times period

tredigs
06-20-2012, 12:46 AM
Do you have particular plays you're crying about? Or is this just the simpleton mentality that more shots in the paint will obviously automatically mean he has to get more foul calls.

I will say that the calls have edged to Miami in this series, but nothing has been overly absurd. The Thunder simply need to play a bit smarter ball, from the coaching (specifically) on down. They're an incredible team, but they're just not QUITE putting it all together despite some brilliant flurries. It's not on the refs. If they executed like I've seen them plenty of times before they'd still be winning this series.

But, it's not over yet. They're fully capable of winning 3 straight.


he shouldnt shoot the ball 32 times period

True. At 63% he should have made it 42 times and kept it away from Harden tonight. Good point.

Chronz
06-20-2012, 12:47 AM
http://i48.tinypic.com/29fy1p0.gif

Hoopsadvocate
06-20-2012, 12:48 AM
Maybe cause he flopped some many times like trying to stick out his leg and then complaining to the refs that they stopped trying to believe him for the game.

They do it to wade when he does the same thing luckly for us wade has cooled that down.

Russel also like wade adjust his body and creates alot of the contact in the paint. most of the time they fall is because they contort their bodies in ways that make them fall or get hit but in legal ways such as when the defender goes str8 up in the air.

I saw russel constantly avoid the hit when driving around his defender. Solid d better offense no fouls. A few times he was hit and a few times he got the calls. Maybe he deserved 1-2 more but not many at all. BUt the refs miss those sometimes just like we have gotten some missed on drives (aka chris bosh pick and rolls this game) just part of the game.

b@llhog24
06-20-2012, 12:48 AM
He avoided contact a lot of times to get his shot off.

CavsYanksDuke
06-20-2012, 12:49 AM
All I say was him sticking his leg out and pretending to get hit. I kept waiting for the refs to give him it because he looked like an Oscar winner, but they didn't.

It's funny how when the Thunder win, I fail to see any criticism of refs.

amos1er
06-20-2012, 12:49 AM
he shouldnt shoot the ball 32 times period

Well, if he got to the line more a good amount of those FG's would have been waived off.

Lebron shot 20 times and got to the line 8 times. But it would have looked like he had shot the ball 22.5 times if he only had 3 freethrow attempts. The more you get to the line the better your FG% looks because they waive off that attempt. eFG% also is heavily effected by how many times you get to the line too.

ManRam
06-20-2012, 12:50 AM
32/3 = 6.4 shots per every FTA

12/1 = 12 shots per every FTA


Bosh had 12 shots and only 1 FT attempt!


Rabble rabble rabble!!!

torocan
06-20-2012, 12:51 AM
Do you have particular plays you're crying about? Or is this just the simpleton mentality that more shots in the paint will obviously automatically mean he has to get more foul calls.

I will say that the calls have edged to Miami in this series, but nothing has been overly absurd. The Thunder simply need to play a bit smarter ball, from the coaching (specifically) on down. They're an incredible team, but they're just not QUITE putting it all together despite some brilliant flurries. It's not on the refs. If they executed like I've seen them plenty of times before they'd still be winning this series.

But, it's not over yet. They're fully capable of winning 3 straight.



True. At 63% he should have made it 42 times and kept it away from Harden tonight. Good point.

When the games are down to 5 points or less in the final minutes, it matters. 2 point game, 3 point game, 5 point game... it wasn't like these were blowouts where the officiating was a fringe issue.

Westbrook was treated like a bench player by the officials, which is sad when he's one of the Superstars. I'm more upset about being deprived of a potentially amazing and long series than any individual game.

Fans deserve to see the best against the best with the play being the deciding factor.

greg_ory_2005
06-20-2012, 12:51 AM
Rigged

Hoopsadvocate
06-20-2012, 12:51 AM
32/3 = 6.4 shots per every FTA

12/1 = 12 shots per every FTA


Bosh had 12 shots and only 1 FT attempt!


Rabble rabble rabble!!!

So whos gonna make the bosh doesnt get calls thread the nba is rigged thread? u or me?

Swashcuff
06-20-2012, 12:53 AM
Did you watch the game? Westbrook did a tremendous job of evading defenders (thus evading contact) when he shot the ball. There was literally one occasion where it could have been argued that there was a no call but tonight instead of trying to attack the Heat players and play for the contact he took a smarter approach in his opinion and tried to put the ball in the bucket.

The majority of Westbrook's shots were jumpers of the pull up variety (he was fouled once on a pull up jumper by Wade) I mean seriously how do you expect him to get to the line if he doesn't attack the players and try to force the contact.

Swashcuff
06-20-2012, 12:53 AM
he shouldnt shoot the ball 32 times period

Yup and watch his team lose by 20 points

ManRam
06-20-2012, 12:53 AM
So whos gonna make the bosh doesnt get calls thread the nba is rigged thread? u or me?

:laugh:

Certainly not me. But if you want to, knock yourself out. Using the "logic" in this thread, your "Bosh: 12 Field Goal Attempts, Only 1 Free Throw Attempt" thread would be more credible.


;)

Swashcuff
06-20-2012, 12:55 AM
Could someone do a play by play and shot by shot breakdown as to why and when Russell Westbrook was fouled and it wasn't called? The point the OP is trying to make is baseless without actual in game context.

Sssmush
06-20-2012, 12:55 AM
Maybe cause he flopped some many times like trying to stick out his leg and then complaining to the refs that they stopped trying to believe him for the game.

They do it to wade when he does the same thing luckly for us wade has cooled that down.

Russel also like wade adjust his body and creates alot of the contact in the paint. most of the time they fall is because they contort their bodies in ways that make them fall or get hit but in legal ways such as when the defender goes str8 up in the air.

I saw russel constantly avoid the hit when driving around his defender. Solid d better offense no fouls. A few times he was hit and a few times he got the calls. Maybe he deserved 1-2 more but not many at all. BUt the refs miss those sometimes just like we have gotten some missed on drives (aka chris bosh pick and rolls this game) just part of the game.

HAHA that's hilarious. The leg kickout play, when Durant actually got the And-1 on a different foul, if you slowed it down in slo mo was just ridiculous.

In general, if you applied the same standard for calling a foul for Wade, who got a few calls when the defender was conceding the shot and just trying to get out of the way, then Westbrook might have gotten, literally 20 FTs. I mean, Westbrook had hands on him and bodies on him EVERY SINGLE SHOT.

Wade, on the other, pump fakes and goes up and the referees are INSTANTLY looking around like "who is the foul going to be on?" At one point, a foul was called on a Wade drive, and the announcers were like "it's on Durant." and then they were lilke "oops, it's not on Durant. Who's it on? Oh, ok it's Sefolosha. Nope, Sefolosha didn't foul. Who's it on? oh, ok they called it on Collins" (who wasn't even in the frame). SVG made some remark that it must've happened on the dribble.

I mean, compare that with taking it to the hoop 32 times and gettin ONE FOUL and ONE AND-1.

That is wtf of a high order.

Anyway, OKC can't blame this one on the refs, who, I suppose, were just "evening it out" to make it an exciting game. OKC had several bad turnovers and bad missed shots.

eibbor
06-20-2012, 12:56 AM
u dont get calls if u dont have balls. take it to the hole or sit down and stfu

amos1er
06-20-2012, 12:56 AM
http://i48.tinypic.com/29fy1p0.gif

:laugh2:

Not quite.

Other than the refs, I would have to say the blame goes to coach Brooks. When the Thunder were up by 2 and the Heat started to make their run I was in awe that he didn't call a time out until they completed a 7-0 run. With minutes to go in a crucial game 4 in the finals, you can't not call a time out there. Biggest bonehead mistake of the night. Well, other than not communicating to his players better that they didn't need to foul after that jump ball when there was only 5 on the shot clock. Westbrook should have known, but with all that on the line, a good coach would have made sure.

kjoke
06-20-2012, 12:56 AM
It's not as if he was missing the shots. If he's making the shot to the rim, than it's not being altered by an illegal hit to the arm or body contact/

amos1er
06-20-2012, 12:57 AM
Could someone do a play by play and shot by shot breakdown as to why and when Russell Westbrook was fouled and it wasn't called? The point the OP is trying to make is baseless without actual in game context.

I don't have access to that kind of footage. I would be great if the NBA provided that along with their shot charts though.

Sssmush
06-20-2012, 12:59 AM
Could someone do a play by play and shot by shot breakdown as to why and when Russell Westbrook was fouled and it wasn't called? The point the OP is trying to make is baseless without actual in game context.

I got the whole game in tivo on HD. Watching any of Westbrooks drives to the hoop in slo motion you will see enough contact to call at least one foul according to Wade standards.

I did think that Harden and Durant got a few calls in the lane, though. Game 3Durant only got 6 FTs after a ton of contact.

Anyway, OKC has played really tight and shot really bad and made a lot of mistakes. They could've been leading by 25 in the 2nd quarter and they totally blew it, then played like crap for much of 3rd and 4th. Giving it to Miami.

amos1er
06-20-2012, 01:00 AM
32/3 = 6.4 shots per every FTA

12/1 = 12 shots per every FTA


Bosh had 12 shots and only 1 FT attempt!


Rabble rabble rabble!!!

Bosh was jumpers all night long bro and was hardly the catalyst that Westbrook was. Westbrook was the MVP of the Thunder for that game, Bosh was the 4th best player on the floor. Chalmers was better for sure.

Swashcuff
06-20-2012, 01:00 AM
I don't have access to that kind of footage. I would be great if the NBA provided that along with their shot charts though.

There shot charts are on ESPN in a matter of hours the film would be up. I can assure you that if you go back play by play you'd be amazed of how great a job Westbrook did of evading contact and finishing inside tonight.

naps
06-20-2012, 01:00 AM
http://i48.tinypic.com/29fy1p0.gif

Clearly what I was thinking.

I am sure he won't be able to give any example. To them both teams should have equal fouls and equal FTA (ONLY when Heat wins).

Sssmush
06-20-2012, 01:01 AM
u dont get calls if u dont have balls. take it to the hole or sit down and stfu

next time try watching the game, clown

torocan
06-20-2012, 01:01 AM
Did you watch the game? Westbrook did a tremendous job of evading defenders (thus evading contact) when he shot the ball. There was literally one occasion where it could have been argued that there was a no call but tonight instead of trying to attack the Heat players and play for the contact he took a smarter approach in his opinion and tried to put the ball in the bucket.

The majority of Westbrook's shots were jumpers of the pull up variety (he was fouled once on a pull up jumper by Wade) I mean seriously how do you expect him to get to the line if he doesn't attack the players and try to force the contact.

I watched the game. I watched his drives in slo mo. Westbrook took plenty of jumpers, he also drove to the paint lots of times.

32 shots.
17 jump shots outside of the paint.
15 shots in the paint.

ESPN shot chart...

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=320619014

He got far fewer calls than he should have.

Sssmush
06-20-2012, 01:02 AM
:laugh2:

Not quite.

Other than the refs, I would have to say the blame goes to coach Brooks. When the Thunder were up by 2 and the Heat started to make their run I was in awe that he didn't call a time out until they completed a 7-0 run. With minutes to go in a crucial game 4 in the finals, you can't not call a time out there. Biggest bonehead mistake of the night. Well, other than not communication to his players better that they didn't need to foul after that jump ball when there was only 5 on the shot clock. Westbrook should have known, but with all that on the line, a good coach would have made sure.

yeah, when they were up 17 Brooks needed to call multiple timeouts and calm them down. Miami wasn't doing much of anything, OKC just didn't score on like 10 possessions in a row.

naps
06-20-2012, 01:02 AM
Westbrook was the MVP of the Thunder for that game, Bosh was the 4th best player on the floor. Chalmers was better for sure.

How does being MVP of your team guarantee you more FTA??

tredigs
06-20-2012, 01:04 AM
u dont get calls if u dont have balls. take it to the hole or sit down and stfu

Well not that you don't know it, but obviously that's just stupidity. He took them to the hole whenever he felt like it. Especially in the 4th. Think he had 10 4th quarter points in the paint alone. He was just too quick. Can't foul what you can't catch.

Chalmers taking out his hip late in the 3rd quarter for what would have been his 4th foul was a clear foul that he didn't get (whether or not his legs kicked out forward), but at least they gave KD a free throw for what looked like a lil' floppage on his part on the same play. Other than the foul trouble on Chalmers (that would have mattered), that play somewhat worked out.

He got knocked a few other times, but I did not see anything that pissed me off more than Brooks' coaching or Harden's loss of powers. Can't be easy to make calls on something that ****ing quick, anyway. The dude is a mutant. And I say that with the most respect possible.

Sssmush
06-20-2012, 01:04 AM
actually, the Heat missed a lot of FTs. They won it with the 10 3's, that was the big factor. Freakin' Chalmers, Coles, Battier. And Harden ice cold again and stupid turnovers. Durant unable to connect from downtown.

tough.to.watch

Longhornfan1234
06-20-2012, 01:04 AM
The night the NBA jumped the shark, and killed the league. The most viewed game in 8 years and this happens. And this wasn't a 2006 Dallas-Miami situation, where the majority of people outside of Florida/Texas didn't care who won. The entire nation was rooting for the Thunder and they let this type of **** go down. It's really sad to see as this league has spent the last decade trying to rebuild from the fall after the Jordan years, and it had come so far only to see it all come doubling down. Oh well, I guess this is why MLB has always dominated the NBA in viewership, sans a view years. Congratulations NBA, tonight you got rid of the casual fan which makes up 95% of your fanbase.

Hoopsadvocate
06-20-2012, 01:05 AM
HAHA that's hilarious. The leg kickout play, when Durant actually got the And-1 on a different foul, if you slowed it down in slo mo was just ridiculous.

In general, if you applied the same standard for calling a foul for Wade, who got a few calls when the defender was conceding the shot and just trying to get out of the way, then Westbrook might have gotten, literally 20 FTs. I mean, Westbrook had hands on him and bodies on him EVERY SINGLE SHOT.

Wade, on the other, pump fakes and goes up and the referees are INSTANTLY looking around like "who is the foul going to be on?" At one point, a foul was called on a Wade drive, and the announcers were like "it's on Durant." and then they were lilke "oops, it's not on Durant. Who's it on? Oh, ok it's Sefolosha. Nope, Sefolosha didn't foul. Who's it on? oh, ok they called it on Collins" (who wasn't even in the frame). SVG made some remark that it must've happened on the dribble.

I mean, compare that with taking it to the hoop 32 times and gettin ONE FOUL and ONE AND-1.

That is wtf of a high order.

Anyway, OKC can't blame this one on the refs, who, I suppose, were just "evening it out" to make it an exciting game. OKC had several bad turnovers and bad missed shots.

If you seriously dont know the difference between sticking ur leg out (which is illegal move and actually considered an offensive foul if u knew some rules in basketball) and pumpfaking and going straight up a a defender comes down on u ( a legit foul unless u jump into the defender in which case it is like westbrooks leg kick aka an offensive foul) then u need to brush up on some of your NBA knowledge before talking to me.

I agreed wade plays similarly at times and sometimes gets the calls the OP was hoping westbrook would get but most of the time they elude contact or make it in a way thats no a foul to the defender at least and thats why they dont get the call.

amos1er
06-20-2012, 01:05 AM
HAHA that's hilarious. The leg kickout play, when Durant actually got the And-1 on a different foul, if you slowed it down in slo mo was just ridiculous.

In general, if you applied the same standard for calling a foul for Wade, who got a few calls when the defender was conceding the shot and just trying to get out of the way, then Westbrook might have gotten, literally 20 FTs. I mean, Westbrook had hands on him and bodies on him EVERY SINGLE SHOT.

Wade, on the other, pump fakes and goes up and the referees are INSTANTLY looking around like "who is the foul going to be on?" At one point, a foul was called on a Wade drive, and the announcers were like "it's on Durant." and then they were lilke "oops, it's not on Durant. Who's it on? Oh, ok it's Sefolosha. Nope, Sefolosha didn't foul. Who's it on? oh, ok they called it on Collins" (who wasn't even in the frame). SVG made some remark that it must've happened on the dribble.

I mean, compare that with taking it to the hoop 32 times and gettin ONE FOUL and ONE AND-1.

That is wtf of a high order.

Anyway, OKC can't blame this one on the refs, who, I suppose, were just "evening it out" to make it an exciting game. OKC had several bad turnovers and bad missed shots.

Turnovers were pretty much equal until the end of the game when Westbrook made those two bad decisions. The game was pretty much out of reach by the 2nd bad turnover he made at the end. Battier could have been easily called for a foul on Durant during that jump ball right before Westbrook made that stupid foul with 5 on the shot clock. I blame the coaching more for that one though.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-20-2012, 01:08 AM
Maybe because he didn't get fouled that much. He probably got fouled 1 more time without it being called. So 2 more trips to the line.

amos1er
06-20-2012, 01:09 AM
The night the NBA jumped the shark, and killed the league. The most viewed game in 8 years and this happens. And this wasn't a 2006 Dallas-Miami situation, where the majority of people outside of Florida/Texas didn't care who won. The entire nation was rooting for the Thunder and they let this type of **** go down. It's really sad to see as this league has spent the last decade trying to rebuild from the fall after the Jordan years, and it had come so far only to see it all come doubling down. Oh well, I guess this is why MLB has always dominated the NBA in viewership, sans a view years. Congratulations NBA, tonight you got rid of the casual fan which makes up 95% of your fanbase.

Agreed. 2006 NBA finals were the worst officiated in league history. This however is not quite as bad. The refs are obviously giving more love to Lebron and Wade, but OKC has made some silly mistakes too and their coaching has been suspect at times.

amos1er
06-20-2012, 01:10 AM
Maybe because he didn't get fouled that much. He probably got fouled 1 more time without it being called. So 2 more trips to the line.

Could have made a world of difference in a game this close. Just sayin.

JC_
06-20-2012, 01:10 AM
Bosh was jumpers all night long bro and was hardly the catalyst that Westbrook was. Westbrook was the MVP of the Thunder for that game, Bosh was the 4th best player on the floor. Chalmers was better for sure.

lol Bosh wasn't jumpers all night

TylerSL
06-20-2012, 01:11 AM
The night the NBA jumped the shark, and killed the league. The most viewed game in 8 years and this happens. And this wasn't a 2006 Dallas-Miami situation, where the majority of people outside of Florida/Texas didn't care who won. The entire nation was rooting for the Thunder and they let this type of **** go down. It's really sad to see as this league has spent the last decade trying to rebuild from the fall after the Jordan years, and it had come so far only to see it all come doubling down. Oh well, I guess this is why MLB has always dominated the NBA in viewership, sans a view years. Congratulations NBA, tonight you got rid of the casual fan which makes up 95% of your fanbase.

what are you talking about?

Sssmush
06-20-2012, 01:12 AM
[/B]

Turnovers were pretty much equal until the end of the game when Westbrook made those two bad decisions. The game was pretty much out of reach by the 2nd bad turnover he made at the end. Battier could have been easily called for a foul on Durant during that jump ball right before Westbrook made that stupid foul with 5 on the shot clock. I blame the coaching more for that one though.

3rd quarter (?) or early 4th, OKC up 7, then Harden bad pass turnover in the lane, leading to 10-0 run or something Miami. then Later OKC is up by 2 with the ball, and then Durant dribble pass turnover, Bosh scores, soon Heat is up by 4. And several key misses there + the great blocked shot by Wade late in the game. Durant unable to draw blood from long range. Just a lot of bad offensive possessions for OKC.

Westbrook's performance speaks for itself. It is actually more impressive with the 3 FTs. People can point to that like 10 years from now and say "see?"

knicks4life33
06-20-2012, 01:13 AM
the refs have been so inconsistent these playoffs and its a shame

amos1er
06-20-2012, 01:13 AM
I watched the game. I watched his drives in slo mo. Westbrook took plenty of jumpers, he also drove to the paint lots of times.

32 shots.
17 jump shots outside of the paint.
15 shots in the paint.

ESPN shot chart...

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=320619014

He got far fewer calls than he should have.

Exactly.

Sssmush
06-20-2012, 01:13 AM
NBA superstars we're so used to them getting their automatic quota of FTs. Sometimes Wade scored 40 points with like 25 FTs.

To get 43 points with only 3 FTs (very late in the game) is just in your face awesome.

JC_
06-20-2012, 01:16 AM
NBA superstars we're so used to them getting their automatic quota of FTs. Sometimes Wade scored 40 points with like 25 FTs.

To get 43 points with only 3 FTs (very late in the game) is just in your face awesome.

He was unstoppable tonight. It was like the ball had a homing device on it when it was in his hands.

GiantsSwaGG
06-20-2012, 01:17 AM
The finals is rigged, get over it!

Raps08-09 Champ
06-20-2012, 01:20 AM
Could have made a world of difference in a game this close. Just sayin.

Lol, why not call fouls the Thunder commited on the Heat that weren't call then? Could have made a world of a difference too. Instead of worrying about a close game, it could have been a more wide open game.

amos1er
06-20-2012, 01:20 AM
lol Bosh wasn't jumpers all night

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=320619014

7 of his 12 shots were jumpers outside of 5 feet of the rim. I remember a good amount of his shots within 5 feet of the basket being dishes from Lebron. He rarely slashes to the basket or drives for a layup.

Chronz
06-20-2012, 01:21 AM
My 2 cents

FGA #1: Handoff play with him gliding away from contact, no contact was made.
FGA #2: Transition jumper (No Contact)
FGA #3: PnR Jumper (No contact)
FGA #4: PnR Jumper (Wide Open)
FGA #5: Dunk Attempt rejected by the rim. Minimal contact
FGA #6: PnR, out of control jumper gliding away from contact
FGA #7: ISO, Bron concedes a jumper, no contact
FGA #8: Post-Up move, no contact, Bosh comes to help and Nick gets the putback
FGA #9: Spot-Up 3 , No contact
FGA #10: Transition layup attempt in a crowd. Impossible to tell if there was any contact from my angle. Looks clean to me

FGA #11: PnR Layup, blows by Wade, No contact.
FGA #12: Transition pull-up jumper, no contact
FGA #13: Spot-Up jumper, concede midrange shot, no contact.
FGA #14: Spot-up Jumper, no contact
FGA #15: Putback Dunk, no contact
FGA #16: Step back 3pt attempt, no contact
FGA #17: PnR Jumper. Battier contests, maybe makes contact I cant tell but its clear the man is taking alot of jumpers.
FGA #18: PnR 3pt shot, no contact.
FGA #19: Spot-Up elbow jumper, no contact.
FGA #20: Slashing floater, James Jones gives him a slight push (Mike Breen comments on it). You could definitely argue this one
FGA #21: Shot clock beater where the ball ends up in his hands with no one around him in the paint. No contact.
FGA #22: Iso layup in traffic, need the instant replay here but Ill go ahead and say its arguable.
FGA #23: Transition pull up jumper, Mario contests and looks like there is contact but hes also kicking his legs out to flop. Ill call this one questionable
FGA #24: Transition layup, avoids contact to make a pretty layup. No contact
FGA #25: PnR Layup, avoids contact but gets poked according to Breen. Minimal contact but definitely arguable.
FGA #26: Slashing layup with lots of lower body contact by Udonis, but hes entitled to his spot IMO. Good no call.

FGA #27: Hand off slashing attempt, beats the defense and Udonis is forced to foul him for the AND1. This counts as a fga and a trip to the line.

FGA #28: PnR Jumper, no contact.
FGA #29: ISO jumper with a crippled Bron, stupid shot and no contact
FGA #30: PnR Jumper, no contact
FGA #31: Transition layup, Battier contest at the rim but definitely no foul.
FGA #32: Hand off, hook shot off the backboard, gliding away from defense, no foul.

How dare you say he drives as much as anyone when its been clear from G1 the Heat are conceding the midrange shot to him. This allows him to get alot of shots off but hes not goint to draw as much contact as guys who are continuously and relentlessly in the paint. I admit some of them could have been called but for the most part hes chuckin.

Chronz
06-20-2012, 01:23 AM
At one point, a foul was called on a Wade drive, and the announcers were like "it's on Durant." and then they were lilke "oops, it's not on Durant. Who's it on? Oh, ok it's Sefolosha. Nope, Sefolosha didn't foul. Who's it on? oh, ok they called it on Collins" (who wasn't even in the frame). SVG made some remark that it must've happened on the dribble.
LMFAO you have a horrible memory.

amos1er
06-20-2012, 01:23 AM
Lol, why not call fouls the Thunder commited on the Heat that weren't call then? Could have made a world of a difference too. Instead of worrying about a close game, it could have been a more wide open game.

Well, the glaring stat here is 32 FGA and 3 FTA on a player that readily drives and slashes to the basket. You have to admit that the Heat have gotten the benefit of the whistle over OKC in the finals. You should at least be able to admit that.

ChitownBears22
06-20-2012, 01:23 AM
My 2 cents

FGA #1: Handoff play with him gliding away from contact, no contact was made.
FGA #2: Transition jumper (No Contact)
FGA #3: PnR Jumper (No contact)
FGA #4: PnR Jumper (Wide Open)
FGA #5: Dunk Attempt rejected by the rim. Minimal contact
FGA #6: PnR, out of control jumper gliding away from contact
FGA #7: ISO, Bron concedes a jumper, no contact
FGA #8: Post-Up move, no contact, Bosh comes to help and Nick gets the putback
FGA #9: Spot-Up 3 , No contact
FGA #10: Transition layup attempt in a crowd. Impossible to tell if there was any contact from my angle. Looks clean to me

FGA #11: PnR Layup, blows by Wade, No contact.
FGA #12: Transition pull-up jumper, no contact
FGA #13: Spot-Up jumper, concede midrange shot, no contact.
FGA #14: Spot-up Jumper, no contact
FGA #15: Putback Dunk, no contact
FGA #16: Step back 3pt attempt, no contact
FGA #17: PnR Jumper. Battier contests, maybe makes contact I cant tell but its clear the man is taking alot of jumpers.
FGA #18: PnR 3pt shot, no contact.
FGA #19: Spot-Up elbow jumper, no contact.
FGA #20: Slashing floater, James Jones gives him a slight push (Mike Breen comments on it). You could definitely argue this one
FGA #21: Shot clock beater where the ball ends up in his hands with no one around him in the paint. No contact.
FGA #22: Iso layup in traffic, need the instant replay here but Ill go ahead and say its arguable.
FGA #23: Transition pull up jumper, Mario contests and looks like there is contact but hes also kicking his legs out to flop. Ill call this one questionable
FGA #24: Transition layup, avoids contact to make a pretty layup. No contact
FGA #25: PnR Layup, avoids contact but gets poked according to Breen. Minimal contact but definitely arguable.
FGA #26: Slashing layup with lots of lower body contact by Udonis, but hes entitled to his spot IMO. Good no call.

FGA #27: Hand off slashing attempt, beats the defense and Udonis is forced to foul him for the AND1. This counts as a fga and a trip to the line.

FGA #28: PnR Jumper, no contact.
FGA #29: ISO jumper with a crippled Bron, stupid shot and no contact
FGA #30: PnR Jumper, no contact
FGA #31: Transition layup, Battier contest at the rim but definitely no foul.
FGA #32: Hand off, hook shot off the backboard, gliding away from defense, no foul.

How dare you say he drives as much as anyone when its been clear from G1 the Heat are conceding the midrange shot to him. This allows him to get alot of shots off but hes not goint to draw as much contact as guys who are continuously and relentlessly in the paint. I admit some of them could have been called but for the most part hes chuckin.

You use logic.....rigged

amos1er
06-20-2012, 01:24 AM
My 2 cents

FGA #1: Handoff play with him gliding away from contact, no contact was made.
FGA #2: Transition jumper (No Contact)
FGA #3: PnR Jumper (No contact)
FGA #4: PnR Jumper (Wide Open)
FGA #5: Dunk Attempt rejected by the rim. Minimal contact
FGA #6: PnR, out of control jumper gliding away from contact
FGA #7: ISO, Bron concedes a jumper, no contact
FGA #8: Post-Up move, no contact, Bosh comes to help and Nick gets the putback
FGA #9: Spot-Up 3 , No contact
FGA #10: Transition layup attempt in a crowd. Impossible to tell if there was any contact from my angle. Looks clean to me

FGA #11: PnR Layup, blows by Wade, No contact.
FGA #12: Transition pull-up jumper, no contact
FGA #13: Spot-Up jumper, concede midrange shot, no contact.
FGA #14: Spot-up Jumper, no contact
FGA #15: Putback Dunk, no contact
FGA #16: Step back 3pt attempt, no contact
FGA #17: PnR Jumper. Battier contests, maybe makes contact I cant tell but its clear the man is taking alot of jumpers.
FGA #18: PnR 3pt shot, no contact.
FGA #19: Spot-Up elbow jumper, no contact.
FGA #20: Slashing floater, James Jones gives him a slight push (Mike Breen comments on it). You could definitely argue this one
FGA #21: Shot clock beater where the ball ends up in his hands with no one around him in the paint. No contact.
FGA #22: Iso layup in traffic, need the instant replay here but Ill go ahead and say its arguable.
FGA #23: Transition pull up jumper, Mario contests and looks like there is contact but hes also kicking his legs out to flop. Ill call this one questionable
FGA #24: Transition layup, avoids contact to make a pretty layup. No contact
FGA #25: PnR Layup, avoids contact but gets poked according to Breen. Minimal contact but definitely arguable.
FGA #26: Slashing layup with lots of lower body contact by Udonis, but hes entitled to his spot IMO. Good no call.

FGA #27: Hand off slashing attempt, beats the defense and Udonis is forced to foul him for the AND1. This counts as a fga and a trip to the line.

FGA #28: PnR Jumper, no contact.
FGA #29: ISO jumper with a crippled Bron, stupid shot and no contact
FGA #30: PnR Jumper, no contact
FGA #31: Transition layup, Battier contest at the rim but definitely no foul.
FGA #32: Hand off, hook shot off the backboard, gliding away from defense, no foul.

How dare you say he drives as much as anyone when its been clear from G1 the Heat are conceding the midrange shot to him. This allows him to get alot of shots off but hes not goint to draw as much contact as guys who are continuously and relentlessly in the paint. I admit some of them could have been called but for the most part hes chuckin.

Link please.

Chronz
06-20-2012, 01:25 AM
I watched the game. I watched his drives in slo mo. Westbrook took plenty of jumpers, he also drove to the paint lots of times.

32 shots.
17 jump shots outside of the paint.
15 shots in the paint.

ESPN shot chart...

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=320619014

He got far fewer calls than he should have.
Check out how many of those in the paint were uncontested and how often he was gliding away from the defense. He didnt get some 50/50 calls and he didnt get one clear foul by my count.

torocan
06-20-2012, 01:26 AM
My 2 cents

FGA #1: Handoff play with him gliding away from contact, no contact was made.
FGA #2: Transition jumper (No Contact)
FGA #3: PnR Jumper (No contact)
FGA #4: PnR Jumper (Wide Open)
FGA #5: Dunk Attempt rejected by the rim. Minimal contact
FGA #6: PnR, out of control jumper gliding away from contact
FGA #7: ISO, Bron concedes a jumper, no contact
FGA #8: Post-Up move, no contact, Bosh comes to help and Nick gets the putback
FGA #9: Spot-Up 3 , No contact
FGA #10: Transition layup attempt in a crowd. Impossible to tell if there was any contact from my angle. Looks clean to me

FGA #11: PnR Layup, blows by Wade, No contact.
FGA #12: Transition pull-up jumper, no contact
FGA #13: Spot-Up jumper, concede midrange shot, no contact.
FGA #14: Spot-up Jumper, no contact
FGA #15: Putback Dunk, no contact
FGA #16: Step back 3pt attempt, no contact
FGA #17: PnR Jumper. Battier contests, maybe makes contact I cant tell but its clear the man is taking alot of jumpers.
FGA #18: PnR 3pt shot, no contact.
FGA #19: Spot-Up elbow jumper, no contact.
FGA #20: Slashing floater, James Jones gives him a slight push (Mike Breen comments on it). You could definitely argue this one
FGA #21: Shot clock beater where the ball ends up in his hands with no one around him in the paint. No contact.
FGA #22: Iso layup in traffic, need the instant replay here but Ill go ahead and say its arguable.
FGA #23: Transition pull up jumper, Mario contests and looks like there is contact but hes also kicking his legs out to flop. Ill call this one questionable
FGA #24: Transition layup, avoids contact to make a pretty layup. No contact
FGA #25: PnR Layup, avoids contact but gets poked according to Breen. Minimal contact but definitely arguable.
FGA #26: Slashing layup with lots of lower body contact by Udonis, but hes entitled to his spot IMO. Good no call.

FGA #27: Hand off slashing attempt, beats the defense and Udonis is forced to foul him for the AND1. This counts as a fga and a trip to the line.

FGA #28: PnR Jumper, no contact.
FGA #29: ISO jumper with a crippled Bron, stupid shot and no contact
FGA #30: PnR Jumper, no contact
FGA #31: Transition layup, Battier contest at the rim but definitely no foul.
FGA #32: Hand off, hook shot off the backboard, gliding away from defense, no foul.

How dare you say he drives as much as anyone when its been clear from G1 the Heat are conceding the midrange shot to him. This allows him to get alot of shots off but hes not goint to draw as much contact as guys who are continuously and relentlessly in the paint. I admit some of them could have been called but for the most part hes chuckin.

In a nutshell he should have gotten more and1's. 2 or 3 more at least would have been fair. 4 or 5 if he'd gotten true "superstar" calls.

The point stands. He didn't get as many as he should have, and in a 2 or 3 point game, those FT's + fouls on the other team make a real difference.

310Casper
06-20-2012, 01:27 AM
just wow....im disgusted in the league

Chronz
06-20-2012, 01:28 AM
Link please.

https://secure.mysynergysports.com/login.aspx

Raps08-09 Champ
06-20-2012, 01:28 AM
Well, the glaring stat here is 32 FGA and 3 FTA on a player that readily drives and slashes to the basket. You have to admit that the Heat have gotten the benefit of the whistle over OKC in the finals. You should at least be able to admit that.

12 shots, 1 FT for Bosh yet there's no threads. Some could have argued Bosh was going up when Durant fouled him late in the game and that was a no call. Even if Westbrook attempted 32 shots, doesn't mean he has to go to the line more. I barely saw shots that could have been a foul. But I guess by your standards, you want him to go to the line despite not deserving it because he shot 32 times?

Have the Heat gotten more calls? Sure.
Is that the Heat's fault? No
Is it rigged? No way.

/thread.

amos1er
06-20-2012, 01:29 AM
My 2 cents

FGA #1: Handoff play with him gliding away from contact, no contact was made.
FGA #2: Transition jumper (No Contact)
FGA #3: PnR Jumper (No contact)
FGA #4: PnR Jumper (Wide Open)
FGA #5: Dunk Attempt rejected by the rim. Minimal contact
FGA #6: PnR, out of control jumper gliding away from contact
FGA #7: ISO, Bron concedes a jumper, no contact
FGA #8: Post-Up move, no contact, Bosh comes to help and Nick gets the putback
FGA #9: Spot-Up 3 , No contact
FGA #10: Transition layup attempt in a crowd. Impossible to tell if there was any contact from my angle. Looks clean to me

FGA #11: PnR Layup, blows by Wade, No contact.
FGA #12: Transition pull-up jumper, no contact
FGA #13: Spot-Up jumper, concede midrange shot, no contact.
FGA #14: Spot-up Jumper, no contact
FGA #15: Putback Dunk, no contact
FGA #16: Step back 3pt attempt, no contact
FGA #17: PnR Jumper. Battier contests, maybe makes contact I cant tell but its clear the man is taking alot of jumpers.
FGA #18: PnR 3pt shot, no contact.
FGA #19: Spot-Up elbow jumper, no contact.
FGA #20: Slashing floater, James Jones gives him a slight push (Mike Breen comments on it). You could definitely argue this one
FGA #21: Shot clock beater where the ball ends up in his hands with no one around him in the paint. No contact.
FGA #22: Iso layup in traffic, need the instant replay here but Ill go ahead and say its arguable.
FGA #23: Transition pull up jumper, Mario contests and looks like there is contact but hes also kicking his legs out to flop. Ill call this one questionable
FGA #24: Transition layup, avoids contact to make a pretty layup. No contact
FGA #25: PnR Layup, avoids contact but gets poked according to Breen. Minimal contact but definitely arguable.
FGA #26: Slashing layup with lots of lower body contact by Udonis, but hes entitled to his spot IMO. Good no call.

FGA #27: Hand off slashing attempt, beats the defense and Udonis is forced to foul him for the AND1. This counts as a fga and a trip to the line.

FGA #28: PnR Jumper, no contact.
FGA #29: ISO jumper with a crippled Bron, stupid shot and no contact
FGA #30: PnR Jumper, no contact
FGA #31: Transition layup, Battier contest at the rim but definitely no foul.
FGA #32: Hand off, hook shot off the backboard, gliding away from defense, no foul.

How dare you say he drives as much as anyone when its been clear from G1 the Heat are conceding the midrange shot to him. This allows him to get alot of shots off but hes not goint to draw as much contact as guys who are continuously and relentlessly in the paint. I admit some of them could have been called but for the most part hes chuckin.


He had 10 attempts within 5 feet.

Lebron had 9 attempts within 5 feet yet got three times as many calls. How many of these calls you consider to be minimal contact or questionable does James get the benefit of the doubt on where as Westbrook doesn't? Just askin.

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=320619014
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=320619014

310Casper
06-20-2012, 01:30 AM
In the mind of most nba fans (excluding miami), Lebron will always have an asterisk next to this championship. Just like barry bonds has one for the home run title.

This was one of the most rigged series I've ever seen, and I've been watching this stuff for over 2 decades.

Chronz
06-20-2012, 01:31 AM
In a nutshell he should have gotten more and1's. 2 or 3 more at least would have been fair. 4 or 5 if he'd gotten true "superstar" calls.

The point stands. He didn't get as many as he should have, and in a 2 or 3 point game, those FT's + fouls on the other team make a real difference.

Can you tell me which plays? And I dont buy it makes the "real" difference. The game doesnt exist in a vacuum, strategies and gameplans change depending on time and score. Bad calls go both ways, the Heat have gotten more of them but not enough to decide a game IMO.

DaVille
06-20-2012, 01:32 AM
Game4 will have an asterisk. Bill Kennedy is the worst referee in the nba.

JC_
06-20-2012, 01:34 AM
Harden is a guy capable of getting lots of calls, this series would be so different if he was on his game.

amos1er
06-20-2012, 01:34 AM
12 shots, 1 FT for Bosh yet there's no threads. Some could have argued Bosh was going up when Durant fouled him late in the game and that was a no call. Even if Westbrook attempted 32 shots, doesn't mean he has to go to the line more. I barely saw shots that could have been a foul. But I guess by your standards, you want him to go to the line despite not deserving it because he shot 32 times?

Have the Heat gotten more calls? Sure.
Is that the Heat's fault? No
Is it rigged? No way.

/thread.

I've already addressed this. Bosh was the 4th best player on the Heat tonight and was mainly shooting uncontested jumpers or converted on uncontested dishes from Lebron. This is probly due to him not wanting to take many risks as he is still recovering from an injury. Westbrook was the MVP of the Thunder tonight. His lack of calls is much more detrimental especially when Bosh only shot 12 times to Westbrooks 32 times. Westbrook was a catalyst and Bosh was a 4th wheel role player.

TylerSL
06-20-2012, 01:35 AM
In the mind of most nba fans (excluding miami), Lebron will always have an asterisk next to this championship. Just like barry bonds has one for the home run title.

This was one of the most rigged series I've ever seen, and I've been watching this stuff for over 2 decades.

:rolleyes:

OKC makes way too many mistakes. Durant continually hurts the team by making reach ins. Ibaka picked up his second foul with 7:00 left in the 1st Quarter by coming in on a Wade layup wayyyy late and hacking him. What happens? He gets a goaltend called (it clearly was), and his 2nd foul. OKC is making the mistakes, there is no asterisk, you are just being a hater.....

TylerSL
06-20-2012, 01:36 AM
Game4 will have an asterisk. Bill Kennedy is the worst referee in the nba.

love the preemptive excuses that you guys are coming up with so when Lebron wins you already have something to say.....

:rolleyes:

amos1er
06-20-2012, 01:36 AM
Check out how many of those in the paint were uncontested and how often he was gliding away from the defense. He didnt get some 50/50 calls and he didnt get one clear foul by my count.

Could easily be the difference maker in a game that was so close.

amos1er
06-20-2012, 01:38 AM
:rolleyes:

OKC makes way too many mistakes. Durant continually hurts the team by making reach ins. Ibaka picked up his second foul with 7:00 left in the 1st Quarter by coming in on a Wade layup wayyyy late and hacking him. What happens? He gets a goaltend called (it clearly was), and his 2nd foul. OKC is making the mistakes, there is no asterisk, you are just being a hater.....

OKC's biggest mistake was the fact that Brooks didn't call a timeout in the 4th quarter when the Heat went on a 7-0 run to take a 5 point lead with only a little over a minute left. Biggest bonehead mistake of the night IMO.

ChitownBears22
06-20-2012, 01:38 AM
Could easily be the difference maker in a game that was so close.

Same could be said about the missed foul calls for Miami. Why don't you just concede that it isn't rigged and a game based on perception can have screw ups.

Drain_Cleaner
06-20-2012, 01:40 AM
Westbrook shoot the ball 32 times making 20, but only went to the line 3 times.

Wade shot 19 times went to the line 9 times

Lebron shot 20 times went to the line 8 times

Durant shot 19 times went to the line 9 times

Sefolosha shot 7 times went to the line 3 times

Chalmers shot 9 times went to the line 5 times

Harden shot 10 times and went to the line 4 times

Don't even try to use the excuse that Westbrook doesn't attack the rack because he does so more than anyone on the Thunder, and pretty much equal to Wade and Lebron. Yet he is just didn't get the same treatment from the officials tonight for some reason. Anyone who watched the game saw him go to the rack time after time get hammered and just not get the call. Westbrook was easily the MVP of game 4, he just didn't get the calls. There were many other calls that went the Heats way tonight, this is just the thing that stood out to me the most.

I'm not a Thunder fan (Lakers), but it was pretty weird. And if you watched the game, Mike Breem and Van Gundy, kept bringing up the foul calls, and brought up the dearth of calls for Westbrook. Given all the times Westbrook drove the lane, I'd say it wasn't the Heat that mugged Westbrook, it was the refs. I don't want to say that Stern has anything to do with this, but he should ask some questions if he wants to maintain the semblance of fairness and lack of corruption in the NBA. This is up there with the bad judging of the Pacquiao-Bradley fight. The Thunder were robbed, either by design or by incompetence. I'm quickly losing interest in this game.

JC_
06-20-2012, 01:40 AM
Could easily be the difference maker in a game that was so close.

OKC was committing obvious fouls in the first quarter that could have helped Miami but they weren't called.. Remember that Lebron drive where his whole arm was fouled? Refs let OKC get a 17 point lead but they ****ed it up and let Miami back into the game because they don't want to play defense against guys like Norris Cole

Chronz
06-20-2012, 01:40 AM
He had 10 attempts within 5 feet.

Lebron had 9 attempts within 5 feet yet got three times as many calls. How many of these calls you consider to be minimal contact or questionable does James get the benefit of the doubt on where as Westbrook doesn't? Just askin.

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=320619014
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=320619014
You want me to do a breakdown for Bron?
He had 10 attempts within 5 feet but of them, 1 was a putback dunk, the other was a dunk that he missed, then there was one where Ibaka gave him an open shot that he converted in mid-air. Many where he avoided contact or with the defender set.

Bron on the other hand is always posting up, battling for position and living in the paint while rarely settling for jumpers. I do think Bron is being given the benefit of the doubt, but the calls hes getting are the ones the refs usually blow the whistle on. Like the play where hes posting up Harden and Harden gos for the strip, I cant tell if he got all ball from that view point and looks like a hard angle for the refs but they make that call based on rep and probability. Most strips get alot of arm, I dont know if it was clean or not but I understand the call. Stripping is a last resort for a defender who is beat and out of position. If you play disciplined defense you wont get as many strips but you dont get your hand caught in the cookie jar either. And Harden doesnt really have a rep for being a low post stopper via strips.

torocan
06-20-2012, 01:40 AM
Can you tell me which plays? And I dont buy it makes the "real" difference. The game doesnt exist in a vacuum, strategies and gameplans change depending on time and score. Bad calls go both ways, the Heat have gotten more of them but not enough to decide a game IMO.

Fouls influence the flow of the game. They influence how defenses play. They influence how offenses play. They add points to the board.

Just because you can't definitively say that it's a game changer (though the no-foul on Durant in game 3 definitely qualifies as a game changer), doesn't mean it would not have had a real impact.

Flip those fouls and nobody knows the outcome given how closely contested the games in this series has been.

The fact is advantageous calls in either direction influences game outcomes. Nobody can say how much, but we know they do and that's why it's a problem.

Would OKC still have lost? Would it have gone to overtime? Would OKC have won?

Just the fact that those questions are there is not a good thing.

I'm a fan of basketball first, and individual teams second. I'm offended if the Heat gets shafted disproportionately on calls. The same applies to OKC. I just want to see a fair playing field, and the OKC/Miami series hasn't been completely fair.

That's my main issue.

I watch the Finals to see great basketball, not the refs.

amos1er
06-20-2012, 01:42 AM
https://secure.mysynergysports.com/login.aspx

Don't have a login.

Chronz
06-20-2012, 01:45 AM
Could easily be the difference maker in a game that was so close.

Could be, could also change the way the opposing team plays. Refs will never get an equal distribution of fouls and non-calls to go both ways. The great teams play through that. The Kings could have won a title even with a bad reffed game 7. So could the Pistons against Showtime Lakers, great teams dust themselves off and find ways to win.

Drain_Cleaner
06-20-2012, 01:45 AM
Same could be said about the missed foul calls for Miami. Why don't you just concede that it isn't rigged and a game based on perception can have screw ups.

43 points... 32 field goal attempts... and only 3 free throws. And he was driving the lane all night long. It could be that the refs made mistakes, but this order of magnitude defies common sense to at least not question it.

Chronz
06-20-2012, 01:46 AM
Don't have a login.
Are you tech savvy? Can you tell me how to rip vids from streams and Ill post them on youtube.

Drain_Cleaner
06-20-2012, 01:49 AM
Just the fact that those questions are there is not a good thing.

Precisely.

Chronz
06-20-2012, 01:51 AM
Fouls influence the flow of the game. They influence how defenses play. They influence how offenses play. They add points to the board.

Just because you can't definitively say that it's a game changer (though the no-foul on Durant in game 3 definitely qualifies as a game changer), doesn't mean it would not have had a real impact.
I think you mean G.2 at the end right. If they call the initial foul on the floor the Thunder get the ball out of bounds again IMO.

And yes it works both ways, fouls influence the way both teams play. Im not saying it doesnt make an impact, Im saying it doesnt decide the game.



Flip those fouls and nobody knows the outcome given how closely contested the games in this series has been.

Agreed


The fact is advantageous calls in either direction influences game outcomes. Nobody can say how much, but we know they do and that's why it's a problem.

Its a problem that has existed since the beginning of the games history. I will never accept that a team won/lost a chip because they couldnt overcome bad calls.


Would OKC still have lost? Would it have gone to overtime? Would OKC have won?

Just the fact that those questions are there is not a good thing.

I'm a fan of basketball first, and individual teams second. I'm offended if the Heat gets shafted disproportionately on calls. The same applies to OKC. I just want to see a fair playing field, and the OKC/Miami series hasn't been completely fair.

I disagree, its the nature of the game, always has been, until we get instant replay and challenges, there will always be subjective calls to make

Bruno
06-20-2012, 01:52 AM
FGA #1: Handoff play with him gliding away from contact, no contact was made.
FGA #2: Transition jumper (No Contact)
FGA #3: PnR Jumper (No contact)
FGA #4: PnR Jumper (Wide Open)
FGA #5: Dunk Attempt rejected by the rim. Minimal contact
FGA #6: PnR, out of control jumper gliding away from contact
FGA #7: ISO, Bron concedes a jumper, no contact
FGA #8: Post-Up move, no contact, Bosh comes to help and Nick gets the putback
FGA #9: Spot-Up 3 , No contact
FGA #10: Transition layup attempt in a crowd. Impossible to tell if there was any contact from my angle. Looks clean to me

FGA #11: PnR Layup, blows by Wade, No contact.
FGA #12: Transition pull-up jumper, no contact
FGA #13: Spot-Up jumper, concede midrange shot, no contact.
FGA #14: Spot-up Jumper, no contact
FGA #15: Putback Dunk, no contact
FGA #16: Step back 3pt attempt, no contact
FGA #17: PnR Jumper. Battier contests, maybe makes contact I cant tell but its clear the man is taking alot of jumpers.
FGA #18: PnR 3pt shot, no contact.
FGA #19: Spot-Up elbow jumper, no contact.
FGA #20: Slashing floater, James Jones gives him a slight push (Mike Breen comments on it). You could definitely argue this one
FGA #21: Shot clock beater where the ball ends up in his hands with no one around him in the paint. No contact.
FGA #22: Iso layup in traffic, need the instant replay here but Ill go ahead and say its arguable.
FGA #23: Transition pull up jumper, Mario contests and looks like there is contact but hes also kicking his legs out to flop. Ill call this one questionable
FGA #24: Transition layup, avoids contact to make a pretty layup. No contact
FGA #25: PnR Layup, avoids contact but gets poked according to Breen. Minimal contact but definitely arguable.
FGA #26: Slashing layup with lots of lower body contact by Udonis, but hes entitled to his spot IMO. Good no call.

FGA #27: Hand off slashing attempt, beats the defense and Udonis is forced to foul him for the AND1. This counts as a fga and a trip to the line.

FGA #28: PnR Jumper, no contact.
FGA #29: ISO jumper with a crippled Bron, stupid shot and no contact
FGA #30: PnR Jumper, no contact
FGA #31: Transition layup, Battier contest at the rim but definitely no foul.
FGA #32: Hand off, hook shot off the backboard, gliding away from defense, no foul.

i've wanted to do this so many times but didn't take the time. did you look at the online play-by-play or rewind on tivo?

amos1er
06-20-2012, 01:53 AM
Could be, could also change the way the opposing team plays. Refs will never get an equal distribution of fouls and non-calls to go both ways. The great teams play through that. The Kings could have won a title even with a bad reffed game 7. So could the Pistons against Showtime Lakers, great teams dust themselves off and find ways to win.

Kings were 16-30 on FTA and the Lakers were 27-33. Additionally, at least a few of those FTA came at the end of the game when the Kings were trying to slow down the clock. Essentially, the freethrow disparity in that one was nil. The Kings only have themselves to blame for that game 7 loss as they missed 14 freethrows. Hardly a bad reffed game 7.

Chronz
06-20-2012, 01:54 AM
43 points... 32 field goal attempts... and only 3 free throws. And he was driving the lane all night long. It could be that the refs made mistakes, but this order of magnitude defies common sense to at least not question it.

Driving the lane all night long? That would mean the majority of his possessions came on drives but the reality is the Heat were conceding a **** load of jumpers to him and that some of the attempts he did get in the paint were uncontested or had minimal contact.

amos1er
06-20-2012, 01:55 AM
Are you tech savvy? Can you tell me how to rip vids from streams and Ill post them on youtube.

Never tried. I'm sure there is a youtube video explaining how though. Thats usually what I do.

Lakersfan2483
06-20-2012, 01:59 AM
Van Gundy commented on how strange it was that Westbrook had only been to the line a few times despite how aggressive he was. Personally, I thought he should have been to the line about 8 or 9 times. The refs missed some calls on his drives to the rim. Despite that, he was phenomenal tonight.

Westbrook was the player of the game despite his team losing. OKC is making a lot of mental mistakes that have cost them 2 games in this series and will ultimately cost them the championship. They remind me of Miami from last year.

Chronz
06-20-2012, 01:59 AM
Kings were 16-30 on FTA and the Lakers were 27-33. Additionally, at least a few of those FTA came at the end of the game when the Kings were trying to slow down the clock. Essentially, the freethrow disparity in that one was nil. The Kings only have themselves to blame for that game 7 loss as they missed 14 freethrows. Hardly a bad reffed game 7.
Free throw disparity isnt what Im talking about, Im talking about the disproportionate amount of non-calls. Remember this is a subjective argument, and according to Doug Christie, hes never seen such a horribly reffed game. According to 82 games.com the calls were mostly legit but somewhat in favor of the Lakers. And if the mantra is if one side got the benefit in a close game then it should decide the game blah blah blah.

Just watch this vid to see how serious Kings fans are that they got screwed that game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxTjOPImyts&feature=related

Drain_Cleaner
06-20-2012, 01:59 AM
I disagree, its the nature of the game, always has been, until we get instant replay and challenges, there will always be subjective calls to make

Subjective is one thing; but a statistical avalanche is a different story.

In game 3 you could make the argument that the Thunder just weren't driving the lane. And in Game 2 you could argue that Durant just didn't get the crucial call. But statistically, you have a difficult sell on the lack of calls made for Westbrook. Even the commentators for ABC were posing the question. At the very least, it was an anomaly... one worthy of asking the league office to shake things up... make sure no one is making a profit off of bad calls. Unless we're to assume that Tim Donaghy was delusional, we know it can happen. But as was stated earlier, it's a shame that this type of questioning should be happening.

torocan
06-20-2012, 02:00 AM
Driving the lane all night long? That would mean the majority of his possessions came on drives but the reality is the Heat were conceding a **** load of jumpers to him and that some of the attempts he did get in the paint were uncontested or had minimal contact.

I'm not arguing he deserved 10 FT's, but 2-3 more would have been reasonably fair given Miami's foul calls.

Outside of Westbrook's no calls, I was actually mostly okay with the officiating give or take a call or two.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-20-2012, 02:01 AM
I've already addressed this. Bosh was the 4th best player on the Heat tonight and was mainly shooting uncontested jumpers or converted on uncontested dishes from Lebron. This is probly due to him not wanting to take many risks as he is still recovering from an injury. Westbrook was the MVP of the Thunder tonight. His lack of calls is much more detrimental especially when Bosh only shot 12 times to Westbrooks 32 times. Westbrook was a catalyst and Bosh was a 4th wheel role player.

Are you trying to say if Bosh gets fouled, he shouldn't go to the line because he's the 4th best player but if Westbrook doesn't get fouled, he should get FT's because he's the best player?

Westbrook shot a lot. So what? That doesn't translate to automatic fouls and he has to go the line 5234234123 times. Instead of making threads, why not actually review each of his shot to see if it's even worth making such a thread. Did Westbrook get fouled without it being called? Possibly. Why not actually look to see if he got fouled or not?

Even then, how many 'Refs rigged it for the Heat when they go to the line more but it's not rigged when the other team goes to the line more', threads can we have?

amos1er
06-20-2012, 02:05 AM
Free throw disparity isnt what Im talking about, Im talking about the disproportionate amount of non-calls. Remember this is a subjective argument, and according to Doug Christie, hes never seen such a horribly reffed game. According to 82 games.com the calls were mostly legit but somewhat in favor of the Lakers. And if the mantra is if one side got the benefit in a close game then it should decide the game blah blah blah.

Just watch this vid to see how serious Kings fans are that they got screwed that game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxTjOPImyts&feature=related

I've already seen that documentary. They were *****ing about game 6 mostly and the 3 pointer that Walker made at halftime in game 4.

Hard to believe you would lend any credibility to a source that bases a lot of their claims of the Tim Donaghy scandal.

torocan
06-20-2012, 02:07 AM
From Timothy Legler's twitter...

@LegsESPN

“OKC cannot get the benefit of the doubt on any calls. Too many touch calls for the NBA Finals.”

“Mia is playing great. Make no mistake. But it’s getting ridiculous how few calls they (Thunder) get on similar plays to what Mia gets. Obvious.”

When someone attacked Legler for saying he was just mad the Thunder wouldn’t win in 6 games like he predicted (as did i) Tim responded by saying...

“I don’t care who wins. Dude change that tune. I’m just saying what I’m seeing.”

It ain't just the OKC fans that had issues with the officiating.

Drain_Cleaner
06-20-2012, 02:08 AM
Driving the lane all night long? That would mean the majority of his possessions came on drives but the reality is the Heat were conceding a **** load of jumpers to him and that some of the attempts he did get in the paint were uncontested or had minimal contact.


First off, I've put money on the Heat to win. And I'm a big time Wade fan. So I'm not unhappy that the Heat won. But after watching the slew of non-calls, I had to laugh. I recorded the game, and what you're calling uncontested was what others were calling physical Miami defense. There was contact. The amount of contact is what one could call subjective. But the fouls called for Wade and Bron were similarly subjective. The problem isn't that there were non-calls due to subjectivity. The problem is the magnitude of non-calls. It looks bad. If there is a suspicion that games are being fixed, it's going to ruin it for everyone.

The point is that statistically, it's worrisome.

amos1er
06-20-2012, 02:13 AM
First off, I've put money on the Heat to win. And I'm a big time Wade fan. So I'm not unhappy that the Heat won. But after watching the slew of non-calls, I had to laugh. I recorded the game, and what you're calling uncontested was what others were calling physical Miami defense. There was contact. The amount of contact is what one could call subjective. But the fouls called for Wade and Bron were similarly subjective. The problem isn't that there were non-calls due to subjectivity. The problem is the magnitude of non-calls. It looks bad. If there is a suspicion that games are being fixed, it's going to ruin it for everyone.

The point is that statistically, it's worrisome.

This^^

Chronz
06-20-2012, 02:15 AM
Subjective is one thing; but a statistical avalanche is a different story.
Not seeing this statistical avalanche.


In game 3 you could make the argument that the Thunder just weren't driving the lane. And in Game 2 you could argue that Durant just didn't get the crucial call. But statistically, you have a difficult sell on the lack of calls made for Westbrook. Even the commentators for ABC were posing the question. At the very least, it was an anomaly... one worthy of asking the league office to shake things up... make sure no one is making a profit off of bad calls.
I dont see it as a tough sell, the guy settled for alot of jumpers that they were conceding and many of his in the paint attempts were either not contested or minimal contact was made. Im sure they missed a few but nothing to suggest a "statistical avalanche".


Unless we're to assume that Tim Donaghy was delusional, we know it can happen. But as was stated earlier, it's a shame that this type of questioning should be happening.

Not sure what this means, Tim Donaghy was more than delusional, he was blatantly lying about many of his claims and when he was reffing he graded as a poor ref by the league and as a result wasnt allowed to ref as many playoff games as his peers, Im sure the league will review the footage from this game just like they do in all the others. And Im sure they will admit to missing a few plays, welcome to the NBA. This has been going on since the onset of its history.



i've wanted to do this so many times but didn't take the time. did you look at the online play-by-play or rewind on tivo?
Synergy, but they dont show me the instant replays, which is what I need to look at most of the crowded shots.


I've already seen that documentary. They were *****ing about game 6 mostly and the 3 pointer that Walker made at halftime in game 4.

Hard to believe you would lend any credibility to a source that bases a lot of their claims of the Tim Donaghy scandal.
I dont lend it credibility, Im saying alot of people buy into the notion that Stern plotted against them when Im saying the Kings could have and should have won regardless. Dont know what you mean by *****ing mostly about any 1 thing, the guy made a series on it for both G.6 and G.7 that got taken down.

Drain_Cleaner
06-20-2012, 02:16 AM
It ain't just the OKC fans that had issues with the officiating.


I'm a Lakers fan... and I have money on the Heat to win it in 6... (okay, I do want it to go to six).

But the thing is that the officiating was weird... there's no other way to describe it. 31 shot attempts and only 3 free throws for Westbrook. That just doesn't happen when a guy is slashing the way Westbrook was. And Miami wasn't, as some people are saying, not contesting those shots. There's no reason for it. Both Wade and Bron ended with only 2 PF each. That is very WEIRD.

The other thing is that while fouls were called roughly equal for each team (18 against the Heat, and 20 against the Thunder), the Heat took 25 foul shots, compared to only 16 for the Thunder.

If these teams were mismatched, you could say this is normal, but they're pretty evenly matched... as the score would suggest. This type of foul shot disparity is, again, WEIRD.

amos1er
06-20-2012, 02:17 AM
Are you trying to say if Bosh gets fouled, he shouldn't go to the line because he's the 4th best player but if Westbrook doesn't get fouled, he should get FT's because he's the best player?

Westbrook shot a lot. So what? That doesn't translate to automatic fouls and he has to go the line 5234234123 times. Instead of making threads, why not actually review each of his shot to see if it's even worth making such a thread. Did Westbrook get fouled without it being called? Possibly. Why not actually look to see if he got fouled or not?

Even then, how many 'Refs rigged it for the Heat when they go to the line more but it's not rigged when the other team goes to the line more', threads can we have?

Find me one example of Bosh not getting the call on a subjective play. It seemed to me that no one is making issue about Bosh's lack of calls/non-calls. The glaring statistic to me was Westbrooks lack of calls on subjective plays that Lebron and Wade seem to get the benefit of the doubt on all to often.

Lakersfan2483
06-20-2012, 02:18 AM
From Timothy Legler's twitter...

@LegsESPN

“OKC cannot get the benefit of the doubt on any calls. Too many touch calls for the NBA Finals.”

“Mia is playing great. Make no mistake. But it’s getting ridiculous how few calls they (Thunder) get on similar plays to what Mia gets. Obvious.”

When someone attacked Legler for saying he was just mad the Thunder wouldn’t win in 6 games like he predicted (as did i) Tim responded by saying...

“I don’t care who wins. Dude change that tune. I’m just saying what I’m seeing.”

It ain't just the OKC fans that had issues with the officiating.

Tim Legler is absolutely correct in his assessment of how the officiating has gone, however I feel as if OKC has been their own worst enemy. They have had ample opportunities to win these past 3 games and have been careless with the ball down the stretch and their lack of poise and execution has been strange considering how they executed against San Antonio, LA and Dallas. Overall, the officiating has favored the Heat, but is hasn't been as aggregious as it was against Boston. The officiating in that series was downright attrocious.

One thing that stands out is that Miami is allowed to play a much more physical brand of bball and the Thunder aren't being afforded that chance.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-20-2012, 02:19 AM
Find me one example of Bosh not getting the call on a subjective play. It seemed to me that no one is making issue about Bosh's lack of calls/non-calls. The glaring statistic to me was Westbrooks lack of calls on subjective plays that Lebron and Wade seem to get the benefit of the doubt on all to often.

The last one could have been argued that Bosh could have been attempting a shot. I've certainly seen worse fouls been called a foul on a shot when the ball was still on the floor.

Like I said, review the whole game, note down each foul/non-foul then make a thread. Outside of that, you aren't going to get much complaining on the internet.

Chronz
06-20-2012, 02:20 AM
First off, I've put money on the Heat to win. And I'm a big time Wade fan. So I'm not unhappy that the Heat won. But after watching the slew of non-calls, I had to laugh. I recorded the game, and what you're calling uncontested was what others were calling physical Miami defense. There was contact. The amount of contact is what one could call subjective. But the fouls called for Wade and Bron were similarly subjective. The problem isn't that there were non-calls due to subjectivity. The problem is the magnitude of non-calls. It looks bad. If there is a suspicion that games are being fixed, it's going to ruin it for everyone.

The point is that statistically, it's worrisome.

First off, I had OKC winning in 6. LOL is that suppose to mean anything? Anyways, I dont agree with your point, even if we assume the contact is similar the fact will still remain the frequency of the contact isnt. Bron is living in the paint and RARELY settling for jumpers. He is jostling for position and putting much more pressure on the refs to look for contact.

Westbrook is getting the lionshare of his offense off of uncontested shots and gliding away from defenses. No contest IMO.

And there will always be suspicion of foul play in contested games, I dont see that ever changing, nor do I see the game ever being ruined because of it.

amos1er
06-20-2012, 02:20 AM
Tim Legler is absolutely correct in his assessment of how the officiating has gone, however I feel as if OKC has been their own worst enemy. They have had ample opportunities to win these past 3 games and have been careless with the ball down the stretch and their lack of poise and execution has been strange considering how they executed against San Antonio, LA and Dallas. Overall, the officiating has favored the Heat, but is hasn't been as aggregious as it was against Boston. The officiating in that series was downright attrocious.

Game 2 of that series was the worst in the playoffs this year. With game 6 of the WCF coming in second. That said, tonight's game would have to be 3rd on my list.

Cracka2HI!
06-20-2012, 02:21 AM
They really should have traded him for CP3. As a Clipper fan I'm really glad they didn't, but OKC probably could have Durant, CP3 and Howard right now.

Chronz
06-20-2012, 02:22 AM
I'm a Lakers fan... and I have money on the Heat to win it in 6... (okay, I do want it to go to six).

But the thing is that the officiating was weird... there's no other way to describe it. 31 shot attempts and only 3 free throws for Westbrook. That just doesn't happen when a guy is slashing the way Westbrook was. And Miami wasn't, as some people are saying, not contesting those shots. There's no reason for it. Both Wade and Bron ended with only 2 PF each. That is very WEIRD.
Again I ask you which plays. If you break it down you will see that the vast majority of his shots were uncontested.


The other thing is that while fouls were called roughly equal for each team (18 against the Heat, and 20 against the Thunder), the Heat took 25 foul shots, compared to only 16 for the Thunder.

If these teams were mismatched, you could say this is normal, but they're pretty evenly matched... as the score would suggest. This type of foul shot disparity is, again, WEIRD.

Not convinced, I would say its in favor of Miami but nothing weird considering their style of play.

NBAFan2012
06-20-2012, 02:22 AM
This is a pretty crazy stat. Because Westbrook gets to the rim with the same velocity and strength as Lebron James to where the majority of the time they get fouled but they are so strong you cant tell. The thing was Lebron James always gets these calls and Westbrook did not.

amos1er
06-20-2012, 02:23 AM
First off, I had OKC winning in 6. LOL is that suppose to mean anything? Anyways, I dont agree with your point, even if we assume the contact is similar the fact will still remain the frequency of the contact isnt. Bron is living in the paint and RARELY settling for jumpers. He is jostling for position and putting much more pressure on the refs to look for contact.

Westbrook is getting the lionshare of his offense off of uncontested shots and gliding away from defenses. No contest IMO.

And there will always be suspicion of foul play in contested games, I dont see that ever changing, nor do I see the game ever being ruined because of it.

He is 6/40 from out side of the paint before tonight's game.

Lakersfan2483
06-20-2012, 02:25 AM
Game 2 of that series was the worst in the playoffs this year. With game 6 of the WCF coming in second. That said, tonight's game would have to be 3rd on my list.

Agree with the first 2 gms you mentioned, but i felt like game 3 of the finals was way worse than tonight.

torocan
06-20-2012, 02:27 AM
Tim Legler is absolutely correct in his assessment of how the officiating has gone, however I feel as if OKC has been their own worst enemy. They have had ample opportunities to win these past 3 games and have been careless with the ball down the stretch and their lack of poise and execution has been strange considering how they executed against San Antonio, LA and Dallas. Overall, the officiating has favored the Heat, but is hasn't been as aggregious as it was against Boston. The officiating in that series was downright attrocious.

One thing that stands out is that Miami is allowed to play a much more physical brand of bball and the Thunder aren't being afforded that chance.

I would not argue that OKC didn't have their chances.

However the officiating in several series has definitely been spotty and one sided on multiple occassions throughout the playoffs.

In some cases for OKC (some games during the SAS, Dallas and LA series), and throughout most of the Heat's games.

I'm more unhappy that they just can't keep the officiating standards consistent for BOTH teams in each series than the outcomes themselves for the most part.

I LIKE to see an even playing field, and the poor officiating hasn't allowed that to happen.

Maybe Miami would have won the games anyway, but when the officiating is uneven we'll never really know especially when every game has been closely contested until the final minutes.

One sided officiating allows Miami to be much more aggressive on the offense and the defense than OKC and that's not a good thing.

The best team should win. Period.

That's what I care about.

Drain_Cleaner
06-20-2012, 02:32 AM
Not seeing this statistical avalanche.

A man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest.



I dont see it as a tough sell, the guy settled for alot of jumpers that they were conceding and many of his in the paint attempts were either not contested or minimal contact was made. Im sure they missed a few but nothing to suggest a "statistical avalanche".

When no one is in foul trouble, and you're in a close game, and the guy who's driving the lane is lighting you up, you better contest those shots. And they did, you need to watch the tape.



Not sure what this means, Tim Donaghy was more than delusional, he was blatantly lying about many of his claims and when he was reffing he graded as a poor ref by the league and as a result wasnt allowed to ref as many playoff games as his peers, Im sure the league will review the footage from this game just like they do in all the others. And Im sure they will admit to missing a few plays, welcome to the NBA. This has been going on since the onset of its history.

Stern, et.al., have consistently made questionable league decisions. And Timmy-D's actions have demonstrated a lack of ethics, but with regard to game fixing, he's had no reason to lie. Your credulity in this matter is odd. I'm not saying that this is definitely a case of corruption. But stay tuned. Right now, this NBA Final is killing the ratings... off the charts. Don't be surprised if this goes to game 7... and with many $millions changing hands you should at least wonder. And what if the Thunder become the first team to come from down 3-to-1, to take the championship. I hope your skepticism is still unaroused.

GiantsSwaGG
06-20-2012, 02:40 AM
My 2 cents

FGA #1: Handoff play with him gliding away from contact, no contact was made.
FGA #2: Transition jumper (No Contact)
FGA #3: PnR Jumper (No contact)
FGA #4: PnR Jumper (Wide Open)
FGA #5: Dunk Attempt rejected by the rim. Minimal contact
FGA #6: PnR, out of control jumper gliding away from contact
FGA #7: ISO, Bron concedes a jumper, no contact
FGA #8: Post-Up move, no contact, Bosh comes to help and Nick gets the putback
FGA #9: Spot-Up 3 , No contact
FGA #10: Transition layup attempt in a crowd. Impossible to tell if there was any contact from my angle. Looks clean to me

FGA #11: PnR Layup, blows by Wade, No contact.
FGA #12: Transition pull-up jumper, no contact
FGA #13: Spot-Up jumper, concede midrange shot, no contact.
FGA #14: Spot-up Jumper, no contact
FGA #15: Putback Dunk, no contact
FGA #16: Step back 3pt attempt, no contact
FGA #17: PnR Jumper. Battier contests, maybe makes contact I cant tell but its clear the man is taking alot of jumpers.
FGA #18: PnR 3pt shot, no contact.
FGA #19: Spot-Up elbow jumper, no contact.
FGA #20: Slashing floater, James Jones gives him a slight push (Mike Breen comments on it). You could definitely argue this one
FGA #21: Shot clock beater where the ball ends up in his hands with no one around him in the paint. No contact.
FGA #22: Iso layup in traffic, need the instant replay here but Ill go ahead and say its arguable.
FGA #23: Transition pull up jumper, Mario contests and looks like there is contact but hes also kicking his legs out to flop. Ill call this one questionable
FGA #24: Transition layup, avoids contact to make a pretty layup. No contact
FGA #25: PnR Layup, avoids contact but gets poked according to Breen. Minimal contact but definitely arguable.
FGA #26: Slashing layup with lots of lower body contact by Udonis, but hes entitled to his spot IMO. Good no call.

FGA #27: Hand off slashing attempt, beats the defense and Udonis is forced to foul him for the AND1. This counts as a fga and a trip to the line.

FGA #28: PnR Jumper, no contact.
FGA #29: ISO jumper with a crippled Bron, stupid shot and no contact
FGA #30: PnR Jumper, no contact
FGA #31: Transition layup, Battier contest at the rim but definitely no foul.
FGA #32: Hand off, hook shot off the backboard, gliding away from defense, no foul.

How dare you say he drives as much as anyone when its been clear from G1 the Heat are conceding the midrange shot to him. This allows him to get alot of shots off but hes not goint to draw as much contact as guys who are continuously and relentlessly in the paint. I admit some of them could have been called but for the most part hes chuckin.

Not enough evidence plus I can tell those stats are rigged!

Drain_Cleaner
06-20-2012, 02:43 AM
First off, I had OKC winning in 6. LOL is that suppose to mean anything?

It means that, while I'm rooting for Miami to win it all, I want the Thunder to take it to six. Thus, my opinion may be tainted. I hope that clarified it for you.


Anyways, I dont agree with your point, even if we assume the contact is similar the fact will still remain the frequency of the contact isnt. Bron is living in the paint and RARELY settling for jumpers. He is jostling for position and putting much more pressure on the refs to look for contact.

Of course you don't. That is why it's subjective.


Westbrook is getting the lionshare of his offense off of uncontested shots and gliding away from defenses. No contest IMO.

Again, it's your opinion, which is why it's subjective.

The issue isn't that the non-calls were subjective. It's the magnitude of the disparity in these subjective calls.

Btw, please don't ask me to do your research for you. Especially since you'd likely just deny the calls... again, that's why they're subjective.

amos1er
06-20-2012, 02:51 AM
It means that, while I'm rooting for Miami to win it all, I want the Thunder to take it to six. Thus, my opinion may be tainted. I hope that clarified it for you.



Of course you don't. That is why it's subjective.



Again, it's your opinion, which is why it's subjective.

The issue isn't that the non-calls were subjective. It's the magnitude of the disparity in these subjective calls.

Btw, please don't ask me to do your research for you. Especially since you'd likely just deny the calls... again, that's why they're subjective.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Chronz
06-20-2012, 02:54 AM
A man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest.
Ditto



When no one is in foul trouble, and you're in a close game, and the guy who's driving the lane is lighting you up, you better contest those shots. And they did, you need to watch the tape.
Nah, the Heat conceded mid range shots because if they contest then hes in the paint all night.


Stern, et.al., have consistently made questionable league decisions. And Timmy-D's actions have demonstrated a lack of ethics, but with regard to game fixing, he's had no reason to lie. Your credulity in this matter is odd. I'm not saying that this is definitely a case of corruption. But stay tuned. Right now, this NBA Final is killing the ratings... off the charts. Don't be surprised if this goes to game 7... and with many $millions changing hands you should at least wonder. And what if the Thunder become the first team to come from down 3-to-1, to take the championship. I hope your skepticism is still unaroused.
No reason to lie? Then why did he? Why write a book if there is no money in it? Why were so many of the claims in his book proven false? Why did he break trust among his publishers? Why did his own family member ( a former ref with nothing to lose) not come to his aid? There is nothing odd about my logic, difference of opinion I guess.

amos1er
06-20-2012, 02:54 AM
All I say was him sticking his leg out and pretending to get hit. I kept waiting for the refs to give him it because he looked like an Oscar winner, but they didn't.

It's funny how when the Thunder win, I fail to see any criticism of refs.

Not true. They were criticized plenty after game 6 of the WCF when the Thunder won.

Chronz
06-20-2012, 03:02 AM
It means that, while I'm rooting for Miami to win it all, I want the Thunder to take it to six. Thus, my opinion may be tainted. I hope that clarified it for you.
Again, I had the thunder in 6, by your logic wouldnt my opinion be tainted? Im not seeing the relevance. But you put money on Miami to win but you want it to go 6 games? Thats odd.



Of course you don't. That is why it's subjective.



Again, it's your opinion, which is why it's subjective.
Agreed.


The issue isn't that the non-calls were subjective. It's the magnitude of the disparity in these subjective calls.

Btw, please don't ask me to do your research for you. Especially since you'd likely just deny the calls... again, that's why they're subjective.

Im not asking for you to do the research for me, just asking you which plays your speaking about. You dont have to oblige but if you keep regurgitating the same response about other opinions of those calls being false you will be questioned. Thats what a basketball forum is for. Ive gone through the trouble of breaking down the plays as I saw them, I just want to know which plays you saw so differently. Im curious to see the disparity

Dade County
06-20-2012, 03:06 AM
PSD Posters haters anthem... enjoy

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/highschool-prep-rally/overemotional-6-old-thunder-fan-dips-epic-meltdown-104135549.html

amos1er
06-20-2012, 03:12 AM
No reason to lie? Then why did he? Why write a book if there is no money in it? Why were so many of the claims in his book proven false? Why did he break trust among his publishers? Why did his own family member ( a former ref with nothing to lose) not come to his aid? There is nothing odd about my logic, difference of opinion I guess.

Henry Hill wrote a book (which later became the movie Goodfellas) that was based on true events. His testimony brought down several powerful mob bosses. They most likely couldn't bring Stern down because all the other refs involved, would have disputed Donaghy's testimony and also (as you pointed out) some of the facts in his testimony turned out to be false according to additional corroborating testimoney that was gathered through other members of the NBA. He was not a good witness in that the NBA could have easily provided many more higher ranking witnesses that would have had Stern's back.

Hill was high up enough in the chain as to where his testimony was credible enough to go against many underlings that would have come forward. Also, through his high rank he was in a position where he could provide key facts and details about the crimes they committed, mainly the Lufthansa Heist. Donaghy was not high up enough in the chain to provide these details to the feds. All Donaghy could do is slander Sterns name in hopes that it would shed light on whats going on so that in the future someone who could provide enough evidence to nail Stern would come forward. Just my opinion BTW.

His publishers were screwing him out of money...Thats why he sued and just won 1.3 million. Donaghy said the threat allegations were fabricated and designed to deflect attention from the missing money. There was a thread about it today in fact.

Snapshot
06-20-2012, 03:13 AM
A lot of crying and boo-hooing going on in here smh. I'm a big Monta Ellis fan and I watched him avg 22fga and only get 5fta for a whole season, and needless to say he attacks the rim just as much, if not more than Russ does.

Rose also comes to mind when it comes to a player that attacks the basket yet hardly goes to the line... suck it up, **** happens, he should be happy it was just one game and not 82. The refs usually send him to the line more often than not. This aint Burger King, you can't always have it your way, yo.

KingPosey
06-20-2012, 03:25 AM
Westy showed up tonight. he played great, KD and Harden played like ****. Harden couldnt score, and KD looks soft at times. KD had more turnovers than rebounds. He needs to be huge on the boards with his size.

I hope this doesnt turn into Westy shoots too much, because he made his shots. He was affective across the board, the other 2 guys didnt show up to play, and cost their team the series tonight.

sunsfan88
06-20-2012, 03:29 AM
People need to understand that Miami got screwed last year by the officiating crew vs Dallas so this year the Heat WILL get all the 50-50 calls.

If OKC makes it to the Finals again in the near future (which I think they easily will) then they will get all the calls going in their favor then.

Chronz
06-20-2012, 03:30 AM
Henry Hill wrote a book (which later became the movie Goodfellas) that was based on true events. His testimony brought down several powerful mob bosses. They most likely couldn't bring Stern down because all the other refs involved, would have disputed Donaghy's testimony and also (as you pointed out) some of the facts in his testimony turned out to be false according to additional corroborating that was gathered through other members of the NBA. He was not a good witness in that the NBA could have easily provided many more higher ranking witnesses that would have had Stern's back.
Other members of the NBA? lol what? They were proven wrong by College Professors, economist, statisticians and the like. From what I remember some did the research on their own accord, others were hired by one of his early publishers, etc...

This isnt a he said she said type of thing (Donaghy is the girl here BTW), we are talking about issues that can be and were quantified. Besides people in his own camp were leaking out stories of his exaggerations.


Hill was high up enough in the chain as to where his testimony was credible enough to go against many underlings that would have come forward. Also, through his high rank he was in a position where he could provide key facts and details about the crimes they committed, mainly the Lufthansa Heist. Donaghy was not high up enough in the chain to provide these details to the feds. All Donaghy could do is slander Sterns name in hopes that it would shed light on whats going on so that in the future someone who could provide enough evidence to nail Stern would come forward. Just my opinion BTW.

Your comparisons always fall short. All Donaghy could do was lie and try to spark interest in his book to help get him out of his financial hole. Whats weird is how his book sparked another book devoted to exposing his shams. It was an odd cycle.



His publishers were screwing him out of money...Thats why he sued and just won 1.3 million. Donaghy said the threat allegations were fabricated and designed to deflect attention from the missing money. There was a thread about it today in fact.
Yea, read my post in that thread. Its hilarious that the publisher he hired after getting dropped/rejected by so many others was one that was just as shady as he was.

amos1er
06-20-2012, 03:36 AM
A lot of crying and boo-hooing going on in here smh. I'm a big Monta Ellis fan and I watched him avg 22fga and only get 5fta for a whole season, and needless to say he attacks the rim just as much, if not more than Russ does.

Rose also comes to mind when it comes to a player that attacks the basket yet hardly goes to the line... suck it up, **** happens, he should be happy it was just one game and not 82. The refs usually send him to the line more often than not. This aint Burger King, you can't always have it your way, yo.

:laugh2:

In 2011 his MVP season he got to the line 7 times per game on 20 shot attempts.

In 2012 he got to the line 6 times on 17 attempts. He was also injured most of the season and didn't take as many risks as last season, yet he still got more calls than Westbrook (who attacks equal or more) did tonight.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-20-2012, 03:39 AM
My 2 cents

FGA #1: Handoff play with him gliding away from contact, no contact was made.
FGA #2: Transition jumper (No Contact)
FGA #3: PnR Jumper (No contact)
FGA #4: PnR Jumper (Wide Open)
FGA #5: Dunk Attempt rejected by the rim. Minimal contact
FGA #6: PnR, out of control jumper gliding away from contact
FGA #7: ISO, Bron concedes a jumper, no contact
FGA #8: Post-Up move, no contact, Bosh comes to help and Nick gets the putback
FGA #9: Spot-Up 3 , No contact
FGA #10: Transition layup attempt in a crowd. Impossible to tell if there was any contact from my angle. Looks clean to me

FGA #11: PnR Layup, blows by Wade, No contact.
FGA #12: Transition pull-up jumper, no contact
FGA #13: Spot-Up jumper, concede midrange shot, no contact.
FGA #14: Spot-up Jumper, no contact
FGA #15: Putback Dunk, no contact
FGA #16: Step back 3pt attempt, no contact
FGA #17: PnR Jumper. Battier contests, maybe makes contact I cant tell but its clear the man is taking alot of jumpers.
FGA #18: PnR 3pt shot, no contact.
FGA #19: Spot-Up elbow jumper, no contact.
FGA #20: Slashing floater, James Jones gives him a slight push (Mike Breen comments on it). You could definitely argue this one
FGA #21: Shot clock beater where the ball ends up in his hands with no one around him in the paint. No contact.
FGA #22: Iso layup in traffic, need the instant replay here but Ill go ahead and say its arguable.
FGA #23: Transition pull up jumper, Mario contests and looks like there is contact but hes also kicking his legs out to flop. Ill call this one questionable
FGA #24: Transition layup, avoids contact to make a pretty layup. No contact
FGA #25: PnR Layup, avoids contact but gets poked according to Breen. Minimal contact but definitely arguable.
FGA #26: Slashing layup with lots of lower body contact by Udonis, but hes entitled to his spot IMO. Good no call.

FGA #27: Hand off slashing attempt, beats the defense and Udonis is forced to foul him for the AND1. This counts as a fga and a trip to the line.

FGA #28: PnR Jumper, no contact.
FGA #29: ISO jumper with a crippled Bron, stupid shot and no contact
FGA #30: PnR Jumper, no contact
FGA #31: Transition layup, Battier contest at the rim but definitely no foul.
FGA #32: Hand off, hook shot off the backboard, gliding away from defense, no foul.

How dare you say he drives as much as anyone when its been clear from G1 the Heat are conceding the midrange shot to him. This allows him to get alot of shots off but hes not goint to draw as much contact as guys who are continuously and relentlessly in the paint. I admit some of them could have been called but for the most part hes chuckin.

Quoted because Chronz did the research and made the OP look like a fool.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-20-2012, 03:52 AM
Do some of you guys really believe that Stern rigs the game while its in progress? You think the refs are keeping track of all of this in their heads while trying to watch the game and are like oh, uh thats a foul for Miami because Stern is watching me over there.

Also, what benefit is there to rigging it for Miami? How does that help the league make money? I can understand getting Miami (and the Thunder) to the Finals to get the Finals to have more viewers but what does Miami winning accomplish in terms of getting revenue for the league? If anything, so many people hate Lebron and the Heat (which is the real reason everyone believes its rigged) that the Heat winning would just make the NBA lose its viewers and therefore, they'd lose money. So why would the NBA want to lose money?

Some of you guys really need to think before accusing the NBA of being rigged because the team you hate is on the verge of a championship. I understand the need to give Lebron no credit and say its all the refs' fault but thats the easy way out. There were some bad calls today like every game. The problem is that the refs can't see everything and the game is played at such a fast speed that they are bound to miss some key calls. Not much you can do about that unless you have robots ref (or if you add more refs, which i'm not opposed to)

Edit: I'm not saying there haven't been games in the past that don't make you wonder (like Kings-Lakers game 6 which the OP ironically believes was fair but thinks the NBA is rigging it for the Heat, lmao at that) but even in those games, it might be possible that the refs just missed some calls. Or in that case, they're trying to extend the series and make more money. You gotta at least look at it from a monetary standpoint. Having the Heat win the ship doesn't make the NBA any more money (and if viewers tune out because of the result, it loses the NBA money).

amos1er
06-20-2012, 03:58 AM
Other members of the NBA? lol what? They were proven wrong by College Professors, economist, statisticians and the like. From what I remember some did the research on their own accord, others were hired by one of his early publishers, etc...

I agree that he did exaggerate and was not entirely truthful. That said, even if he was, he would still not have made a good witness as he was not high up the chain enough to provide information that could have nailed Stern. Also, many others lackeys of Stern's would have lied to protect Stern. The point I'm making is that people in these situations (Herny Hill) only come forward when they themselves are busted. That said, you are insinuating that he made up stories to save himself and thats what people in those situations usually do.

I provided the example of Henry Hill to show you that people who are busted and make deals to save themselves, can have some truth to their allegations. Hill also was not 100% truthful to the feds either, but was able to provide evidence that led to the convictions of many dangerous and corrupts mob bosses. Hill did not want to have to rat, he only did so as a means to protect himself. Donaghy likewise would not have come forward with allegations either had he not been busted and left with no choice either. Thats usually how the feds nail people in high power, they get an underling to rat. Nothing new here. While Donaghy was not 100% truthful, even if 10% of what he is saying is true than we have a scandal on our hands surely. The main difference between Hill and Donaghy was that Hill was higher up the food chain and was able to provide more evidence.


This isnt a he said she said type of thing (Donaghy is the girl here BTW), we are talking about issues that can be and were quantified. Besides people in his own camp were leaking out stories of his exaggerations.

Donaghy was not in a position where he would have been a good enough witness to nail Stern even if he was 100% truthful. Again, Hill was not 100% truthful either the difference being that Hill had the evidence the feds were looking for and Donaghy didn't other than hearsay and his own experiences which would have been dwarfed by the other refs that most likely would have lied to protect Stern. There is a good documentary about Hill on youtube somewhere...def worth checking out.



Your comparisons always fall short. All Donaghy could do was lie and try to spark interest in his book to help get him out of his financial hole. Whats weird is how his book sparked another book devoted to exposing his shams. It was an odd cycle.

Most people in Donaghy's position would do as many book deals as they could. Strike while the iron is hot as they say. Just because Donaghy profited off his situation does not make make his character any less credible. Many other credible witnesses have done the same. i.e Henry Hill...Hell, everyone writes a book these days...especially the victims in some cases. In the O.J trial everyone and their mother wrote a book.


Yea, read my post in that thread. Its hilarious that the publisher he hired after getting dropped/rejected by so many others was one that was just as shady as he was.

Just because some publishers dropped him, doesn't mean that their isn't some truth to his allegations. Again, even if 10% of what he says is true we are in for a scandal. The only problem, is that they have no way of proving that 10% as of yet. Couldn't it be possible that there is some truth to what he is saying?

amos1er
06-20-2012, 04:01 AM
Do some of you guys really believe that Stern rigs the game while its in progress? You think the refs are keeping track of all of this in their heads while trying to watch the game and are like oh, uh thats a foul for Miami because Stern is watching me over there.

Also, what benefit is there to rigging it for Miami? How does that help the league make money? I can understand getting Miami (and the Thunder) to the Finals to get the Finals to have more viewers but what does Miami winning accomplish in terms of getting revenue for the league? If anything, so many people hate Lebron and the Heat (which is the real reason everyone believes its rigged) that the Heat winning would just make the NBA lose its viewers and therefore, they'd lose money. So why would the NBA want to lose money?

Some of you guys really need to think before accusing the NBA of being rigged because the team you hate is on the verge of a championship. I understand the need to give Lebron no credit and say its all the refs' fault but thats the easy way out. There were some bad calls today like every game. The problem is that the refs can't see everything and the game is played at such a fast speed that they are bound to miss some key calls. Not much you can do about that unless you have robots ref (or if you add more refs, which i'm not opposed to)

Edit: I'm not saying there haven't been games in the past that don't make you wonder (like Kings-Lakers game 6 which the OP ironically believes was fair but thinks the NBA is rigging it for the Heat, lmao at that) but even in those games, it might be possible that the refs just missed some calls. Or in that case, they're trying to extend the series and make more money. You gotta at least look at it from a monetary standpoint. Having the Heat win the ship doesn't make the NBA any more money (and if viewers tune out because of the result, it loses the NBA money).

Why are you putting words in my mouth? When did I ever say that game 6 of the 2002 WCF was fair? I only mentioned game 7 in this thread.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-20-2012, 04:04 AM
Why are you putting words in my mouth? When did I ever say that game 6 of the 2002 WCF was fair? I only mentioned game 7 in this thread.

You didn't mention it in this thread but I saw you mention it in another thread about the NBA being rigged. You said something like game 6 was fair because the rest of that series wasn't or some BS like that.

I think you would have a bit more credibility if you would at least admit your own team might had benefitted from Sterns' supposed rigging, especially when you consider the Lakers are a MASSIVE money maker....But no, don't want to admit that my favorite team has benefitted from calls but the team I hate gets his championship given to him by the refs..Sounds fair and definitely makes you sound credible lol.

But seriously, think of it from a monetary standpoint. How does the Heat winning the championship help the NBA gain more money going forward? It doesn't. And in fact, it takes away a huge talking point for all the talking heads- whether Lebron can win a ring or not. What would the media talk about? It's almost beneficial to the NBA if Lebron and the Heat DON'T win. Then you have more viewers tuning in (like yourself) to root against Lebron and the Heat and they keep coming back because he keeps losing. And that leads to more viewership for the NBA and more money for the NBA. What does Lebron winning accomplish? All the Heat haters stop watching the NBA because its rigged because Lebron won so the NBA loses a whole bunch of viewership and therefore loses money. Seems kind of stupid from a monetary standpoint to rig it in favor of the Heat.

amos1er
06-20-2012, 04:08 AM
Quoted because Chronz did the research and made the OP look like a fool.

Really? Because there have many other posts since then that brought up good points in contradiction. Talk about seeing what you want to see. :rolleyes:

Chronz
06-20-2012, 04:15 AM
I agree that he did exaggerate and was not entirely truthful. That said, even if he was, he would still not have made a good witness as he was not high up the chain enough to provide information that could have nailed Stern.
I dont understand, if he was entirely truthful his claims would not have been refuted so easily. This isnt about witnesses, I dont care about a he said she said type of evidence, Im only concerned with quantifiable claims made and if you cant even get that right then you have no credibility in my book.



Also, many others lackeys of Stern's would have lied to protect Stern.
Except that Stern didnt need lackeys, the truth was coming out from multiple sources independent of the NBA. All Donaghy did was provide them the opportunity to make money off debunking him. I guess we can paint him as a hero for stimulating our economy. YAY


The point I'm making is that people in these situations (Herny Hill) only come forward when they themselves are busted. That said, you are insinuating that he made up stories to save himself and thats what people in those situations usually do. I provided the example of Henry Hill to show you that people who are busted and make deals to save themselves, can have some truth to their allegations. Hill also was not 100% truthful to the feds either, but was able to provide evidence that led to the convictions of many dangerous and corrupts mob bosses. Hill did not want to have to rat, he only did so as a means to protect himself. Donaghy likewise would not have come forward with allegations either had he not been busted and left with no choice either. Thats usually how the feds nail people in high power, they get an underling to rat. While Donaghy was not 100% truthful, even if 10% of what he is saying is true than we have a scandal on our hands surely. The main difference between Hill and Donaghy was that Hill was higher up the food chain and was able to provide more evidence.
If only Donaghy was in the same boat, sadly hes lying to keep himself out of prison and get him out of his hole financially, those lies were exposed, luckily for him they didnt lead to enough evidence to keep him in jail.



Donaghy was not in a position where he would have been a good enough witness to nail Stern even if he was 100% truthful. Again, Hill was not 100% truthful either the difference being that Hill had the evidence the feds were looking for and Donaghy didn't other than hearsay and his own experiences which would have been dwarfed by the other refs that most likely would have lied to protect Stern. There is a good documentary about Hill on youtube somewhere...def worth checking out.
Donaghy was in a position to provide factual data, but that wouldnt lead to an interesting book, instead he exaggerated and lied.



Most people in Donaghy's position would do as many book deals as they could. Strike while the iron is hot as they say. Just because Donaghy profited off his situation does not make make his character any less credible.
Of course not, him lying is what makes him less credible. The fact that he could profit from those lies is what provides reasonable motive, when there is motive and lack of truth, there can only be 1 conclusion.


Many other credible witnesses have done the same. i.e Henry Hill Hell, everyone writes a book these days...especially the victims in some cases.
Agreed, hell, Donaghy isnt even the first writer to act like a victim only to be exposed as a liar.



Just because some publishers dropped him, doesn't mean that their isn't some truth to his allegations.
It definitely doesnt help, and if you have to lie about claims that can be checked, then why would I listen to your subjective viewpoints?


Again, even if 10% of what he says is true we are in for a scandal. The only problem, is that they have no way of proving that 10% as of yet. Couldn't it be possible that there is some truth to what he is saying?
Sure, but the possibility of truth doesnt outweigh the certainty of falsified statements in my book.

amos1er
06-20-2012, 04:15 AM
You didn't mention it in this thread but I saw you mention it in another thread about the NBA being rigged. You said something like game 6 was fair because the rest of that series wasn't or some BS like that.

I think you would have a bit more credibility if you would at least admit your own team might had benefitted from Sterns' supposed rigging, especially when you consider the Lakers are a MASSIVE money maker....But no, don't want to admit that my favorite team has benefitted from calls but the team I hate gets his championship given to him by the refs..Sounds fair and definitely makes you sound credible lol.

But seriously, think of it from a monetary standpoint. How does the Heat winning the championship help the NBA gain more money going forward? It doesn't. And in fact, it takes away a huge talking point for all the talking heads- whether Lebron can win a ring or not. What would the media talk about? It's almost beneficial to the NBA if Lebron and the Heat DON'T win. Then you have more viewers tuning in (like yourself) to root against Lebron and the Heat and they keep coming back because he keeps losing.

Again, you are putting words in my mouth. I never would say that something is fair based on the fact that something else wasn't. I only said that if people want to bring up that game, they should look at the entire series as a whole. Any Laker fan could say that games 5 and 3 were in the Kings favor. That doesn't make what happened in game 6 fair. I'm just saying to look at the series as a whole before you base judgement. Donaghy said that the series was fixed to extend the series, not to ensure the Lakers won. Honestly, it sucks that people are in a position where they have to talk about officiating at all. Wish the NBA could do a better job so that we could enjoy the sport we all love.

Chronz
06-20-2012, 04:18 AM
Really? Because there have many other posts since then that brought up good points in contradiction. Talk about seeing what you want to see. :rolleyes:
Good points? I saw them disagree but when questioned they didnt want to get specific.

sventhedog
06-20-2012, 04:18 AM
miami definitely getting more superstar's calls in the series. but i really don't buy into this fg attempts to freethrows sort of thing because he had a lot of those "walk-in" or mid-range jumpers.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-20-2012, 04:19 AM
Really? Because there have many other posts since then that brought up good points in contradiction. Talk about seeing what you want to see. :rolleyes:

Yeah, sorry what you thought were good points weren't really that great points. I'm not even saying Miami might not have gotten some favorable calls but think about what you are saying. You are saying that in the heat of the moment, these refs are mentally keeping a stat sheet in their head about how many calls they're giving to Miami and are trying to favor them intentionally. I'm sorry but that seems like a lot to do while also trying to ref a game. I'm sure the calls are made in the heat of the game and there are probably make up calls when they feel they make a mistake but I doubt they're mentally keeping track of every foul so that they're giving it to Miami.

And the final FT and personal foul difference wasn't even that outrageous. I think its well known that teams get calls on their home floor and I'm sure thats all that it was.

And I don't even think this game was that bad when you compare it to some of the other so called "rigged" games in the playoffs.

Chronz
06-20-2012, 04:23 AM
Well good talk as always, I foresee us repeating this conversation many times. Till next time.

torocan
06-20-2012, 04:26 AM
Yeah, sorry what you thought were good points weren't really that great points. I'm not even saying Miami might not have gotten some favorable calls but think about what you are saying. You are saying that in the heat of the moment, these refs are mentally keeping a stat sheet in their head about how many calls they're giving to Miami and are trying to favor them intentionally. I'm sorry but that seems like a lot to do while also trying to ref a game. I'm sure the calls are made in the heat of the game and there are probably make up calls when they feel they make a mistake but I doubt they're mentally keeping track of every foul so that they're giving it to Miami.

And the final FT and personal foul difference wasn't even that outrageous. I think its well known that teams get calls on their home floor and I'm sure thats all that it was.

And I don't even think this game was that bad when you compare it to some of the other so called "rigged" games in the playoffs.

Personally, I don't think the game was "rigged" per se as opposed to the refs having an unusual level of superstar bias towards Lebron/Wade vs Durant/Westbrook.

Lebron and Wade get more than their share of "superstar" calls.
Durant gets a decent share of "superstar" calls but gets shafted when it's him and Lebron on eachother.

Westbrook gets inadequate respect in relation to his importance to OKC and that creates an unbalanced officiating situation.

Personally I'd prefer they cut way down on Superstar calls for everyone. Let ALL of them earn their points and fouls like anyone else. Sure, the fans don't pay to see Superstars on the bench, but if you're going to do that then at least do it fairly.

Instead of calling fouls based purely on overall superstar status, they should be just picking 2 or 3 superstars on EACH team and give them that level of respect.

I just want more of a level playing field in general other than Lebron/Wade having the edge on calls all the time, or Durant/Westbrook getting the bulk of the edge in a Spurs series.

Hold both sides to the same standards and I have no complaints. Either let them play physical, or call ticky tacks on both sides. Just don't let it get one-sided.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-20-2012, 04:29 AM
Again, you are putting words in my mouth. I never would say that something is fair based on the fact that something else wasn't. I only said that if people want to bring up that game, they should look at the entire series as a whole. Any Laker fan could say that games 5 and 3 were in the Kings favor. That doesn't make what happened in game 6 fair. I'm just saying to look at the series as a whole before you base judgement. Donaghy said that the series was fixed to extend the series, not to ensure the Lakers won. Honestly, it sucks that people are in a position where they have to talk about officiating at all. Wish the NBA could do a better job so that we could enjoy the sport we all love.

Ok, so basically you are making an excuse for your team right? What Donaghy did say was that he wanted to extend the series and he specifically cited that game and NO OTHERS in that series. So it sounds like you're trying to defend your team AND yet, you aren't willing to give the Heat any credit.

Idk, from the way it looks, you want to defend your team when someone accuses the NBA of being biased in favor of the Lakers but if its the Heat, the NBA is definitely rigging it in their favor.

About the only thing I agree with you is that the officiating could be better. Unlike you though, I believe that it is due to the game being played at a fast pace and "seemingly" having too many old refs (Joey Crawford looks like he's 90 years old so what is he doing refing a game played at a fast pace?)

I think to fix officiating or to make it better, they need more refs or they need to make use of technology more. I think its natural there's going to be human error. I also do think stars get the benefit of calls but its not to the point of rigging it in any teams favor. Both teams have an equal # of "stars" here. And I think its too much trouble to rig a game and risk losing viewers and therefore money.

HuRRiCaNeS324
06-20-2012, 04:32 AM
Yea bro i agree, The HEAT ****ing suck. They dont deserve ****. Theres no way we win without the refs....






:rolleyes:

PatsSoxKnicks
06-20-2012, 04:34 AM
Personally, I don't think the game was "rigged" per se as opposed to the refs having an unusual level of superstar bias towards Lebron/Wade vs Durant/Westbrook.

Lebron and Wade get more than their share of "superstar" calls.
Durant gets a decent share of "superstar" calls but gets shafted when it's him and Lebron on eachother.

Westbrook gets inadequate respect in relation to his importance to OKC and that creates an unbalanced officiating situation.

Personally I'd prefer they cut way down on Superstar calls for everyone. Let ALL of them earn their points and fouls like anyone else. Sure, the fans don't pay to see Superstars on the bench, but if you're going to do that then at least do it fairly.

Instead of calling fouls based purely on overall superstar status, they should be just picking 2 or 3 superstars on EACH team and give them that level of respect.

I just want more of a level playing field in general other than Lebron/Wade having the edge on calls all the time, or Durant/Westbrook getting the bulk of the edge in a Spurs series.

Hold both sides to the same standards and I have no complaints. Either let them play physical, or call ticky tacks on both sides. Just don't let it get one-sided.

I can see your points here and I think these make more sense than the whole "its rigged for Miami" complaining. If it were up to me, I would cut down on the personal fouls. While you don't want to turn this into a brawl, do people really enjoy seeing players shoot free throws? Cut down on the number of fouls and yes, make this a more physical game. There's nothing wrong with that. In the 80s, you didn't "seem" to have this many calls (and I might be wrong, haven't done any research into this) and you were able to have teams play at a fast pace and have enjoyable basketball.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-20-2012, 04:37 AM
Well good talk as always, I foresee us repeating this conversation many times. Till next time.

This lol

_Supreme_
06-20-2012, 04:39 AM
Amos you really need to get over your obsession with free throw differentials. It is flawed reasoning. Always has been, ever since you started spouting it in 2006.

Did you complain back when Shaq/Kobe got all the calls & free throws. I don't think so, right?

To be honest I don't quite understand why you still follow the NBA anymore if it is all so rigged and unfair. Do yourself a favour and stop watching.

amos1er
06-20-2012, 04:40 AM
I dont understand, if he was entirely truthful his claims would not have been refuted so easily. This isnt about witnesses, I dont care about a he said she said type of evidence, Im only concerned with quantifiable claims made and if you cant even get that right then you have no credibility in my book.

The two main claims from Donaghy were about the 2002 WCF and the 2007 WCS. He had no evidence for either other than his own accounts. But as I said earlier, other officials could easily refute this and lie for Stern leaving Donaghy as non-credible witness. This would happen regardless, even if there was truth to these two particular claims or not.

Donaghy had no quantifiable claims as well as any sort of evidence. I guess in the end you just have to choose what you want to believe based on your own better judgement. Again even if 10% is true, Stern is guilty. I find it hard to believe that 100% of what he said was completely false. That said, I will concede that there was a great deal of falseness to his allegations. You have to admit that Donaghy did succeed in the fact that people now question David Stern like never before.

amos1er
06-20-2012, 04:47 AM
Amos you really need to get over your obsession with free throw differentials. It is flawed reasoning. Always has been, ever since you started spouting it in 2006.

Did you complain back when Shaq/Kobe got all the calls & free throws. I don't think so, right?

To be honest I don't quite understand why you still follow the NBA anymore if it is all so rigged and unfair. Do yourself a favour and stop watching.

Not possible, I wasn't even a member of PSD back then. But to answer your question, no I wasn't complaining. But what I don't do is disregard everyone else's complaints/observations as the rantings of crybabies. Rather, I listen objectively and like to think that I can admit when I see something thats fishy even if it goes in my favor. That said, I have yet to see anyone on here provide any kind of evidence that Kobe or Shaq got the same kind of unfair treatment from the refs that Lebron and Wade have gotten.

_Supreme_
06-20-2012, 05:20 AM
Not possible, I wasn't even a member of PSD back then. But to answer your question, no I wasn't complaining. But what I don't do is disregard everyone else's complaints/observations as the rantings of crybabies.

When these "complaints/observations" are always the same (and most of the time biased) ones and have been debated over and over and over like an entire warehouse full of broken records then yes, at a certain point they become nothing more than rants of crybabies and should be disregarded as such.

And the comment about stopping to watch the NBA wasn't a jab. I seriously don't understand why someone continues to watch something that obviously bothers him so greatly.
You have been arguing this exact same thing for at least 6 years now. Don't you ever think "just F it, what am I doing and what do I hope to accomplish with it?"... I mean, seriously :laugh:

basketfan4life
06-20-2012, 06:32 AM
I watch almost all kind of sports since my childhood. I watch this game in europe too. There is no one league that it's officiating is as bad as NBA. There is no league like NBA that it's fairness is in question like this.

I mean, you can easily decide the winner of the game by calling ticky tacky fouls on one end and only calling real hard fouls on the other hand. Consistency is the key word here. Russell Westbrook could go the the charity stripe 7-8 times minimum if it were called same way on both ends. Not only that but you literally let one team play hard/physical defense and you force the other team to play soft defense. Also you can easily change the momentum of the game.

Again, consistency is the key word here. If you call that 4th foul on Durant in game 3, you better call that foul LeBron committed at the end of game 2. The series would be 2-2 now. Or switch the calls on OKC'S favor and OKC could be up 3-1 now. Don't get me wrong, i'm not sad for OKC, at the end of the day they got past the Spurs by this very same ref treatment. But same with Miami, against Boston.

And to say things like "great teams overcome bad officiating", "they didn't lose the game because refs they lost because TO's or they couldn't hold the lead" is total BS to me. Some team can't hold on to their 15 point lead, make a lot of bad TO's and can still win by a single point if the refs make the right decision. And why would they have to overcome bad officiating in the first place? what if both teams are great(like these 2 teams), how can a team overcome the officiating then ? NBA is slowly, surely turned in to a late night show.

UPRock
06-20-2012, 07:01 AM
The Referee that works for ESPN said that Westbrook was flopping after every play looking for the foul ball, but the Refs knew about that. Same reason why Wade doesn't get enough calls.

thenaj17
06-20-2012, 08:00 AM
maybe cause he flopped some many times like trying to stick out his leg and then complaining to the refs that they stopped trying to believe him for the game.

They do it to wade when he does the same thing luckly for us wade has cooled that down.

Russel also like wade adjust his body and creates alot of the contact in the paint. Most of the time they fall is because they contort their bodies in ways that make them fall or get hit but in legal ways such as when the defender goes str8 up in the air.

I saw russel constantly avoid the hit when driving around his defender. Solid d better offense no fouls. A few times he was hit and a few times he got the calls. Maybe he deserved 1-2 more but not many at all. But the refs miss those sometimes just like we have gotten some missed on drives (aka chris bosh pick and rolls this game) just part of the game.

100% this!

MadBomber
06-20-2012, 08:19 AM
That boy was on tonight, I have no problem when he's shooting within the context of the offense. He did make a bonehead play at the end but you live and you learn.

natelpete
06-20-2012, 08:50 AM
Westbrook shoot the ball 32 times making 20, but only went to the line 3 times.

Wade shot 19 times went to the line 9 times

Lebron shot 20 times went to the line 8 times

Durant shot 19 times went to the line 9 times

Sefolosha shot 7 times went to the line 3 times

Chalmers shot 9 times went to the line 5 times

Harden shot 10 times and went to the line 4 times

Don't even try to use the excuse that Westbrook doesn't attack the rack because he does so more than anyone on the Thunder, and pretty much equal to Wade and Lebron. Yet he is just didn't get the same treatment from the officials tonight for some reason. Anyone who watched the game saw him go to the rack time after time get hammered and just not get the call. Westbrook was easily the MVP of game 4, he just didn't get the calls. There were many other calls that went the Heats way tonight, this is just the thing that stood out to me the most.

Not sure of the actual statistic but a bunch of his "points in the paint" were little uncontested 8 foot jumpers. He probably didn't get a couple of the calls he would have wanted, but overall, I didn't see anything too bad that the officials missed.

Swashcuff
06-20-2012, 08:53 AM
Link please.

Why do you need a link? If you watched the game you'd see that what Chronz stated was indeed fact. I mean any logical person watching that game would have seen that Westbrook really didn't try to get to the line and wasn't hacked when he was getting there very often. He was THAT quick and elusive.

Drain_Cleaner
06-20-2012, 08:57 AM
Again, I had the thunder in 6, by your logic wouldnt my opinion be tainted? Im not seeing the relevance. But you put money on Miami to win but you want it to go 6 games? Thats odd.

I picked the team (I picked Miami to win), and I picked how many games it would be in (I picked 6 games); and the only way I win is if the Thunder win another.

And thus, I admit that my opinion might be somewhat biased.

I can't spell it out any better than this. Think about it... it'll come to you.

ManRam
06-20-2012, 09:07 AM
I watched the game. I watched his drives in slo mo. Westbrook took plenty of jumpers, he also drove to the paint lots of times.

32 shots.
17 jump shots outside of the paint.
15 shots in the paint.

ESPN shot chart...

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=320619014

He got far fewer calls than he should have.

That's not how you determine how many calls someone should have.

You determine that by taking note of how many fouls should have been called.

Sometimes players can shoot the ball 30 times and rarely get fouled. Sometimes they can shoot it 30 times and get fouled 30 times. It depend on a lot of things and it's absolutely not as cut and dry as "he shot it 15 times in the paint and only get 3 FTA therefore he didn't get all the fouls he deserved".


I'll admit that there were a few times where he was bumped and it wasn't called. That was happening all night for both teams.

koreancabbage
06-20-2012, 09:08 AM
he's ****ing ugly thats why.

and he shows up the refs and doesn't really communicate with them.

Jordan, Lebron, Wade, etc all create friendships/ an understanding with the refs.

Drain_Cleaner
06-20-2012, 09:17 AM
Yeah, sorry what you thought were good points weren't really that great points. I'm not even saying Miami might not have gotten some favorable calls but think about what you are saying. You are saying that in the heat of the moment, these refs are mentally keeping a stat sheet in their head about how many calls they're giving to Miami and are trying to favor them intentionally. I'm sorry but that seems like a lot to do while also trying to ref a game. I'm sure the calls are made in the heat of the game and there are probably make up calls when they feel they make a mistake but I doubt they're mentally keeping track of every foul so that they're giving it to Miami.

And the final FT and personal foul difference wasn't even that outrageous. I think its well known that teams get calls on their home floor and I'm sure thats all that it was.

And I don't even think this game was that bad when you compare it to some of the other so called "rigged" games in the playoffs.


It's not necessarily a case of a rigged game. It could be pure incompetence. But Westbrook's numbers stand out as odd. 32 shots and only 3 FT attempts. If we take Westbrook's own team members, the stats are unusual. For example, Sefolosha only took 7 shot attempts, but had just as many FT attempts (3), and 3 of those shots were three-point attempts... so it's 3/4 = 75% of Sefolosha's shots ended in FT attempts.

If we look at the Heat, and look at Chalmers for example, he took 15 shoot attempts, 9 of those were three-point attempts, which leaves 6 shots (some were jump shots), and he had 3 FT attempts... so it's 3/6 = 50% of Chalmer's shots ended in FT attempts.

For Westbrook, he took 32 shots, 3 were three-point attempts, (and still more were jump shots, admittedly), but that percentage is only 29/3 = 10% ended in FT attempts. (Perhaps just a legitimate outlier, but you hate to see it because it raises questions of bias, and/or incompetence.)

So forget about conspiracy... it's not relevant. What is relevant is that Westbrook's numbers suggest, at the minimum, poor and lopsided officiating.

Overall, the Thunder took 82 shots, (minus 16 three-point attempts = 66) and only made 16 FT attempts, so their FT were 16/66 = 24% ended in FT attempts.

The Heat took 79 shots, (minus 26 three-point attempts = 56) and made 25 FT attempts, so their FT were 25 FT attempts were 25/56 = 46%.

24% versus 46% is a striking difference. In a typical game, where both teams are driving teams, but where the teams are pretty well matched in terms of style, you wouldn't expect this disparity.

What is interesting is that the Thunder made 15/16 FT. The Heat made 18/25 FT. It's almost as if the Thunder's typical FT shooting advantage (in %), was negated by a lack of calls. It's oddly convenient for the Heat.

There is certainly reason to question the lack of foul calls for Westbrook (btw, I hate the dude).

Drain_Cleaner
06-20-2012, 09:53 AM
I'll admit that there were a few times where he was bumped and it wasn't called. That was happening all night for both teams.

The statistics don't suggest that the missed calls were evenly dispersed between the two teams.

The Heat took 25 three pointers, and had 79 shots all together, and went to the line 26 times.

The Thunder took 16 three pointers, and had 82 shots all together, and went to the line 16 times.

I don't know what the shots in the paint were, but if we consider these stats alone, it doesn't look like there were an equal number of missed calls. Plus, you'd have to consider that because in the previous games the Thunder were in foul trouble, they probably weren't playing it as close... trying to avoid the hair trigger on the refs for calling fouls.

This is definitely a statistical anomaly.

Swashcuff
06-20-2012, 09:58 AM
The statistics don't suggest that the missed calls were evenly dispersed between the two teams.

The Heat took 25 three pointers, and had 79 shots all together, and went to the line 26 times.

The Thunder took 16 three pointers, and had 82 shots all together, and went to the line 16 times.

I don't know what the shots in the paint were, but if we consider these stats alone, it doesn't look like there were an equal number of missed calls. Plus, you'd have to consider that because in the previous games the Thunder were in foul trouble, they probably weren't playing it as close... trying to avoid the hair trigger on the refs for calling fouls.

This is definitely a statistical anomaly.

:confused:

What?

Dude stop trying to base your opinion on the stats and watch the game. I'm a huge advocate of stats here on PSD but that doesn't mean that the example you're trying to put forward holds any truth. I think you need to learn stats before you attempt to use them in this discussion.

Swashcuff
06-20-2012, 10:01 AM
It's not necessarily a case of a rigged game. It could be pure incompetence. But Westbrook's numbers stand out as odd. 32 shots and only 3 FT attempts. If we take Westbrook's own team members, the stats are unusual. For example, Sefolosha only took 7 shot attempts, but had just as many FT attempts (3), and 3 of those shots were three-point attempts... so it's 3/4 = 75% of Sefolosha's shots ended in FT attempts.

If we look at the Heat, and look at Chalmers for example, he took 15 shoot attempts, 9 of those were three-point attempts, which leaves 6 shots (some were jump shots), and he had 3 FT attempts... so it's 3/6 = 50% of Chalmer's shots ended in FT attempts.

For Westbrook, he took 32 shots, 3 were three-point attempts, (and still more were jump shots, admittedly), but that percentage is only 29/3 = 10% ended in FT attempts. (Perhaps just a legitimate outlier, but you hate to see it because it raises questions of bias, and/or incompetence.)

So forget about conspiracy... it's not relevant. What is relevant is that Westbrook's numbers suggest, at the minimum, poor and lopsided officiating.

Overall, the Thunder took 82 shots, (minus 16 three-point attempts = 66) and only made 16 FT attempts, so their FT were 16/66 = 24% ended in FT attempts.

The Heat took 79 shots, (minus 26 three-point attempts = 56) and made 25 FT attempts, so their FT were 25 FT attempts were 25/56 = 46%.

24% versus 46% is a striking difference. In a typical game, where both teams are driving teams, but where the teams are pretty well matched in terms of style, you wouldn't expect this disparity.

What is interesting is that the Thunder made 15/16 FT. The Heat made 18/25 FT. It's almost as if the Thunder's typical FT shooting advantage (in %), was negated by a lack of calls. It's oddly convenient for the Heat.

There is certainly reason to question the lack of foul calls for Westbrook (btw, I hate the dude).

Wow all NBA statisticians just threw up a little bit in their mouth.

This has to be one of the worst statistical breakdowns I have ever seen. Where is the context? You just take a bunch of #s put em together and think you made a factual statement. This couldn't be further from the truth.

valade16
06-20-2012, 10:16 AM
If anyone listened to the commentary from Jeff Van Gundy you would've heard at least a dozen times of him saying that a foul call against the Thunder, was in fact, not a foul.

The Heat got a lot of calls this game, but that isn't why they won.

They won because LeBron straight up hit every shot he needed to down the stretch and Harden forgot how to pass.

valade16
06-20-2012, 10:20 AM
:confused:

What?

Dude stop trying to base your opinion on the stats and watch the game. I'm a huge advocate of stats here on PSD but that doesn't mean that the example you're trying to put forward holds any truth. I think you need to learn stats before you attempt to use them in this discussion.

Actually if you're trying to argue that the there were an even number of calls/noncalls I suggest not telling him to watch the game, otherwise it would be painfully obvious you're wrong.

Just ask Jeff Van Gundy. The dude had at least a dozen times where he was like "That wasn't a foul" when it was called against the Thunder.

An especially memorable one was when Wade drove to the hoop and they originally called the foul on Durant and he was like "That wasn't a foul", then they changed it to Westbrook and he was like "Let's look again... NOPE. They should've given the call to Aldrich on the bench, he touched Wade as much as anyone else'. Pretty bad call.

Rivera
06-20-2012, 10:26 AM
I like how the people who always use stats to defend there arguements is saying "watch the game" and "put it in the context of the game" in this situation because it helps out there arguement

But when it comes to other arguements they only use stats and never use "game conext". You can tell those people who use stats never watch many games ouside there favorite team/playoffs. What a joke

And the nba has been a joke for years. That 5 second rule is pathetic and so are there refs its nothing knew

The miami heat dont foul. Point blank.

xxplayerxx23
06-20-2012, 10:33 AM
I read 2 pages and People are saying he shouldnt shoot 32 times, Are you kidding? he shot 62% Without him his team gets destroyed. Stop it. He did get hit a lot, He should of went to the line a lot. And the to say bosh 12/1 is the same lol, Bosh drove 4 times, Westbrook drove 79 times. It was bad. Doesnt matter they were still in the game and should of won they didnt.

ManRam
06-20-2012, 10:33 AM
I like how the people who always use stats to defend there arguements is saying "watch the game" and "put it in the context of the game" in this situation because it helps out there arguement


The thing is, using FGAs to determine how many FTs a player should get isn't coming from a statistically sound origin. It's not "using stats"...it's trying create a correlation between two things that aren't necessarily connected.

There's a huge difference in using stats to illustrate how good a player is as compared to using stats to show that a player didn't get to the line.

The number of fouls drawn can be completely independent of the number of shots taken. They can be completely unrelated. You could easily shoot the ball 30 times and never actually get fouled. You could just as easily shoot the ball 30 times and get fouled 30 times. That's why saying "he shot it 32 times and only got 3 FTs" really is a poor way of arguing that he should have gotten more calls.

Fouls are black and white most of the time. This is a fair time to say "show me the video". The best way to show that Westy deserved more FTs is to show me clips of him getting fouled and how it wasn't called.

Right?

Right.

ManRam
06-20-2012, 10:34 AM
I read 2 pages and People are saying he shouldnt shoot 32 times, Are you kidding? he shot 62% Without him his team gets destroyed. Stop it. He did get hit a lot, He should of went to the line a lot. And the to say bosh 12/1 is the same lol, Bosh drove 4 times, Westbrook drove 79 times. It was bad. Doesnt matter they were still in the game and should of won they didnt.

He had it going. He was efficient, he was getting good shots, and he absolutely should have done what he did. He single handily kept them in the game. He was great...

Until the last minute.

basketfan4life
06-20-2012, 10:38 AM
That's not how you determine how many calls someone should have.

You determine that by taking note of how many fouls should have been called.

Sometimes players can shoot the ball 30 times and rarely get fouled. Sometimes they can shoot it 30 times and get fouled 30 times. It depend on a lot of things and it's absolutely not as cut and dry as "he shot it 15 times in the paint and only get 3 FTA therefore he didn't get all the fouls he deserved".


I'll admit that there were a few times where he was bumped and it wasn't called. That was happening all night for both teams.

not saying you are wrong at all cause you are right, but whenever people question lbj and wade goes to the line so much, all people ***** about how they are attackers not only jump shooters. Well same case here.

Rivera
06-20-2012, 10:40 AM
The thing is, using FGAs to determine how many FTs a player should get isn't coming from a statistically sound origin. It's not "using stats"...it's trying create a correlation between two things that aren't necessarily connected.

There's a huge difference in using stats to illustrate how good a player is as compared to using stats to show that a player didn't get to the line.

The number of fouls drawn can be completely independent of the number of shots taken. They can be completely unrelated. You could easily shoot the ball 30 times and never actually get fouled. You could just as easily shoot the ball 30 times and get fouled 30 times. That's why saying "he shot it 32 times and only got 3 FTs" really is a poor way of arguing that he should have gotten more calls.

Fouls are black and white most of the time. This is a fair time to say "show me the video". The best way to show that Westy deserved more FTs is to show me clips of him getting fouled and how it wasn't called.

Right?

Right.

So russell westbrook wasnt aggressive and never drove the ball to the rim and didnt get the same favorable calls wade and lebron get everytime they drive the ball to the rim

Right?

Cause all 32 shots were jumpshots

Heatcheck
06-20-2012, 10:49 AM
HAHA that's hilarious. The leg kickout play, when Durant actually got the And-1 on a different foul, if you slowed it down in slo mo was just ridiculous.

In general, if you applied the same standard for calling a foul for Wade, who got a few calls when the defender was conceding the shot and just trying to get out of the way, then Westbrook might have gotten, literally 20 FTs. I mean, Westbrook had hands on him and bodies on him EVERY SINGLE SHOT.

Wade, on the other, pump fakes and goes up and the referees are INSTANTLY looking around like "who is the foul going to be on?" At one point, a foul was called on a Wade drive, and the announcers were like "it's on Durant." and then they were lilke "oops, it's not on Durant. Who's it on? Oh, ok it's Sefolosha. Nope, Sefolosha didn't foul. Who's it on? oh, ok they called it on Collins" (who wasn't even in the frame). SVG made some remark that it must've happened on the dribble.

I mean, compare that with taking it to the hoop 32 times and gettin ONE FOUL and ONE AND-1.

That is wtf of a high order.

Anyway, OKC can't blame this one on the refs, who, I suppose, were just "evening it out" to make it an exciting game. OKC had several bad turnovers and bad missed shots.


What game were you watching? Or is exaggeration your way to compensate for not have a real argument backed up by some kind of facts.

xxplayerxx23
06-20-2012, 10:51 AM
He had it going. He was efficient, he was getting good shots, and he absolutely should have done what he did. He single handily kept them in the game. He was great...

Until the last minute.

I agree, I was reffering to the people that said he should not of shot 32 times

Heatcheck
06-20-2012, 10:52 AM
So russell westbrook wasnt aggressive and never drove the ball to the rim and didnt get the same favorable calls wade and lebron get everytime they drive the ball to the rim

Right?

Cause all 32 shots were jumpshots

no no, didnt you hear? "he took the ball to the hoop 32 times"

Rivera
06-20-2012, 10:53 AM
no no, didnt you hear? "he took the ball to the hoop 32 times"

And you didnt hear? The nba is rigged! Stern has ordered the refs to get lebron his first ring since game 2 of the boston series

I can play this game to

Heatcheck
06-20-2012, 11:03 AM
And you didnt hear? The nba is rigged! Stern has ordered the refs to get lebron his first ring since game 2 of the boston series

I can play this game to

Oh damn, well if YOU say it, it HAS to be true. i mean why would i refute your obvious insider knowledge into the workings of the NBA. please enilighten me with this info that YOU are somehow privy to.

I love how these guys sit at their computers and have never been in the NBA office, and dont know anybody in that inbdustry, but they KNOW its rigged.

Stick to "Wrestling".

xxplayerxx23
06-20-2012, 11:03 AM
no no, didnt you hear? "he took the ball to the hoop 32 times"

heat fans sit here and try to say he wasnt getting hit, he took it to the hole more then anybody in the game.3 ft attempts are a little fishy should of been a lot more, Doesnt matter they lost the game and they were in it and should of won. Nothing you can do

Yankeefan213
06-20-2012, 11:07 AM
All I say was him sticking his leg out and pretending to get hit. I kept waiting for the refs to give him it because he looked like an Oscar winner, but they didn't.

It's funny how when the Thunder win, I fail to see any criticism of refs.

A guy named Dwyane Wade does the same **** and gets the call every time.

Heatcheck
06-20-2012, 11:08 AM
heat fans sit here and try to say he wasnt getting hit, he took it to the hole more then anybody in the game.3 ft attempts are a little fishy should of been a lot more, Doesnt matter they lost the game and they were in it and should of won. Nothing you can do

was he getting screwed, maybe, i just want someone to show me a link where i can see how many times he took it to the hoop before i make claims.

I havent seen anyone with the numbers yet, just assumptions.

daleja424
06-20-2012, 11:11 AM
heat fans sit here and try to say he wasnt getting hit, he took it to the hole more then anybody in the game.3 ft attempts are a little fishy should of been a lot more, Doesnt matter they lost the game and they were in it and should of won. Nothing you can do

actually lebron took it to the whole ALL GAME and didn't take a single FT until the end of the 3rd. He was getting HAMMERED in the paint in the first half too...

Lebron took 8 FTs, but 4 of those were from off ball fouls with the Thunder over the limit.

So on 13 attacks last night...Lebron got two calls...

If you try to look at the game objectively for a minute you will probably notice that body contact wasn't called either way last night. They let a lot fo physicalness go both ways.

Rivera
06-20-2012, 11:13 AM
Oh damn, well if YOU say it, it HAS to be true. i mean why would i refute your obvious insider knowledge into the workings of the NBA. please enilighten me with this info that YOU are somehow privy to.

I love how these guys sit at their computers and have never been in the NBA office, and dont know anybody in that inbdustry, but they KNOW its rigged.

Stick to "Wrestling".

Since you said russel took the ball 32 times to the whole you must be right. If YOU say it it HAS to b true

At least wrestling tells you its rigged....the nba tries to play off like its not

I can keep playing this game to bro but im better

Heatcheck
06-20-2012, 11:15 AM
actually lebron took it to the whole ALL GAME and didn't take a single FT until the end of the 3rd. He was getting HAMMERED in the paint in the first half too...

Lebron took 8 FTs, but 4 of those were from off ball fouls with the Thunder over the limit.

So on 13 attacks last night...Lebron got two calls...

If you try to look at the game objectively for a minute you will probably notice that body contact wasn't called either way last night. They let a lot fo physicalness go both ways.

You see what this man just did? he had an opinion about one of the statistics last night. and low and behold, he actually had the stats to prove it. he didnt just say, "uh uh, lebron took it to hole all game too and didnt get calls".

now someone else give it a try.

Swashcuff
06-20-2012, 11:19 AM
heat fans sit here and try to say he wasnt getting hit, he took it to the hole more then anybody in the game.3 ft attempts are a little fishy should of been a lot more, Doesnt matter they lost the game and they were in it and should of won. Nothing you can do

I'm not a Heat fan as well as being one of the biggest Westbrook supporters here on PSD and I have been saying this from the outset. Its true Westbrook wasn't getting hacked in the lane.

xxplayerxx23
06-20-2012, 11:19 AM
actually lebron took it to the whole ALL GAME and didn't take a single FT until the end of the 3rd. He was getting HAMMERED in the paint in the first half too...

Lebron took 8 FTs, but 4 of those were from off ball fouls with the Thunder over the limit.

So on 13 attacks last night...Lebron got two calls...

If you try to look at the game objectively for a minute you will probably notice that body contact wasn't called either way last night. They let a lot fo physicalness go both ways.

Westy took it to the whole more, I wasnt saying Lebron was getting calls, but at least he had something. No excuse for the loss Im just pointing out westy got hit a lot

Heatcheck
06-20-2012, 11:20 AM
Since you said russel took the ball 32 times to the whole you must be right. If YOU say it it HAS to b true

At least wrestling tells you its rigged....the nba tries to play off like its not

I can keep playing this game to bro but im better
the previous poster said that, and since i found it an incredibly stupid thing to say, i repeated it sarcastically. it would only make sense as it wouldnt be too helpful to my argument if i really thought that.

But keep assuming you know certain things because they make you feel better, see how far that takes you.

Heatcheck
06-20-2012, 11:21 AM
Westy took it to the whole more, I wasnt saying Lebron was getting calls, but at least he had something. No excuse for the loss Im just pointing out westy got hit a lot

how many times did he take it to the WHOLE?

xxplayerxx23
06-20-2012, 11:21 AM
I'm not a Heat fan as well as being one of the biggest Westbrook supporters here on PSD and I have been saying this from the outset. Its true Westbrook wasn't getting hacked in the lane.

Certain times he went in and got pushed, Not saying everytime he was hacked. But he def did take contact. Which all in all should of led to more then 3 FTA

Swashcuff
06-20-2012, 11:23 AM
Actually if you're trying to argue that the there were an even number of calls/noncalls I suggest not telling him to watch the game, otherwise it would be painfully obvious you're wrong.

Just ask Jeff Van Gundy. The dude had at least a dozen times where he was like "That wasn't a foul" when it was called against the Thunder.

An especially memorable one was when Wade drove to the hoop and they originally called the foul on Durant and he was like "That wasn't a foul", then they changed it to Westbrook and he was like "Let's look again... NOPE. They should've given the call to Aldrich on the bench, he touched Wade as much as anyone else'. Pretty bad call.

I don't understand this post. On almost every drive Westbrook made to the hole they showed the replay afterwards. It was clear that Westbrook on more occasions than not wasn't even looking to initiate contact. Hell the Heat defenders were always one step behind and weren't even able to get close enough to Westbrook to even have a shot at challenging his shot much less fouling him.

xxplayerxx23
06-20-2012, 11:23 AM
how many times did he take it to the WHOLE?

I dont have a number but it was a lot. there was a strech run where he took it to the hole 7 straight possesions

Swashcuff
06-20-2012, 11:26 AM
Certain times he went in and got pushed, Not saying everytime he was hacked. But he def did take contact. Which all in all should of led to more then 3 FTA

I agree with this. Like i said earlier there were occasions in which a foul could have been called no doubt. My gripe with this thread however is that people are trying to argue that if you shoot the ball X amount of times you should get to the line X amount of times without even attempting to apply simple context.

If a player gets hit he should go to the line. If that was the argument made then I would be in agreement. Attempting to use stats to say a player should have gotten to the line more is baseless if you don't apply the context to the argument.

daleja424
06-20-2012, 11:26 AM
btw..."Westy" took 21 jumpshots... 15 of which were outside of 15ft.

Ya he was attacking the paint all game alright...

Rivera
06-20-2012, 11:27 AM
the previous poster said that, and since i found it an incredibly stupid thing to say, i repeated it sarcastically. it would only make sense as it wouldnt be too helpful to my argument if i really thought that.

But keep assuming you know certain things because they make you feel better, see how far that takes you.

Its taken me far where im almost done with my bachelors degree i have expirence in running a business and im going to an interview next week to be a manager for the hertz corporation

And i still play ball everyday nd watch local ball everyday and watch nba ball for my whole life

Im not the only one who thinks its rigged sorry to burst your bubble. My newsfeed gets flooded after every playoff game by people around my area saying how horrible the nba has become and its quite sad.

Im enjoying my local rec league much more than nba basketball. They let us play and the action i enjoyable and close

Ive probably played and watch more basketball nba and rec leagues in 3 years combined then youve watched nba ball your whole life

Swashcuff
06-20-2012, 11:28 AM
I dont have a number but it was a lot. there was a strech run where he took it to the hole 7 straight possesions

If you're talking about the 4th when he brought them back into the game from my vantage point (the television) there was only one occasion in which he had any kind of contact when driving and that was on his second bank shot. IMO that looked like it could have been a foul on the shot but wasn't called. Other than that the Heat defenders weren't able to even keep up with him.

Heatcheck
06-20-2012, 11:29 AM
I dont have a number but it was a lot. there was a strech run where he took it to the hole 7 straight possesions


idk, i cant give you that one without the numbers. especially when its about an actual recorded stat.

h2r09
06-20-2012, 11:29 AM
1. he shot a lot of jump shots.
2. the heat got no foul calls in the first half.
3. people who complain about nothing but the refs but continue to watch for the sole reason of complaining about the refs makes watching the nba really annoying.

Green_Monster
06-20-2012, 11:29 AM
I watched the game last night and the refs were horrible. Wade and Lebron would throw themselves into the paint and flop, (Nothing new). It would be an automatic foul.

Westbrook and Durant would get hacked while driving and the refs wouldn't blow the whistle.

One play Durant stuffed Wade. Wade cried to the ref and got the call.

xxplayerxx23
06-20-2012, 11:29 AM
I agree with this. Like i said earlier there were occasions in which a foul could have been called no doubt. My gripe with this thread however is that people are trying to argue that if you shoot the ball X amount of times you should get to the line X amount of times without even attempting to apply simple context.

If a player gets hit he should go to the line. If that was the argument made then I would be in agreement. Attempting to use stats to say a player should have gotten to the line more is baseless if you don't apply the context to the argument.

Agree 100percent. Cant use stats to justify that. Those people that do prob either didnt watch the game, or Just want the heat to lose bad enough that they will use any exusce in the book

daleja424
06-20-2012, 11:30 AM
then why watch? honest question here...

If you think it is rigged like wrestling... why are you wasting your time complaining about it. Do people really get on message boards and complain when John cena wins b/c its rigged...

And if it bothers you so much... stop watching and posting about it.

I really don't get what you hope to accomplish by complaining about the NBA being rigged...

xxplayerxx23
06-20-2012, 11:31 AM
If you're talking about the 4th when he brought them back into the game from my vantage point (the television) there was only one occasion in which he had any kind of contact when driving and that was on his second bank shot. IMO that looked like it could have been a foul on the shot but wasn't called. Other than that the Heat defenders weren't able to even keep up with him.

I was using that as an example of how many times he was on the attack. I saw clean plays on pretty much all of those drives, Just showing how much he was driving in the game

daleja424
06-20-2012, 11:33 AM
I was using that as an example of how many times he was on the attack. I saw clean plays on pretty much all of those drives, Just showing how much he was driving in the game

why bring up an example that proves you wrong? He could drive the lane 50 times in a row...but if he isn't being fouled... why would there be foul calls made?

Heatcheck
06-20-2012, 11:35 AM
Its taken me far where im almost done with my bachelors degree i have expirence in running a business and im going to an interview next week to be a manager for the hertz corporation

And i still play ball everyday nd watch local ball everyday and watch nba ball for my whole life

Im not the only one who thinks its rigged sorry to burst your bubble. My newsfeed gets flooded after every playoff game by people around my area saying how horrible the nba has become and its quite sad.

Im enjoying my local rec league much more than nba basketball. They let us play and the action i enjoyable and close

Ive probably played and watch more basketball nba and rec leagues in 3 years combined then youve watched nba ball your whole life

so your not some middle schooler on summer break? i dont know what that is suppose to prove to me.

No one cares what you say you've done, will do, feel like doing, or what people who think like you feel.

All i know is your telling me you know something for a FACT, that you have no real knowledge or experience with. and on top of that you like to watch grown men, in underwear, pretending to fight and be mad at each other.

So your judgment is more than questionable, buddy.

h2r09
06-20-2012, 11:35 AM
I watched the game last night and the refs were horrible. Wade and Lebron would throw themselves into the paint and flop, (Nothing new). It would be an automatic foul.

Westbrook and Durant would get hacked while driving and the refs wouldn't blow the whistle.

One play Durant stuffed Wade. Wade cried to the ref and got the call.

awesome. don't watch. go do some research on the celtics draft prospects. why complain if you seem to know what is going to happen in every game.

xxplayerxx23
06-20-2012, 11:35 AM
why bring up an example that proves you wrong? He could drive the lane 50 times in a row...but if he isn't being fouled... why would there be foul calls made?

Proves me wrong? My point has been he should of gotten more then 3 FTA, and there are always calls for the more agressive team(usually). The guy asked how many times he drove the lane, the 7 times straight seemed like a good example considering I dont have an exact amount of times.

Shkelqim
06-20-2012, 11:37 AM
The guy avoids contact and uses the Wade leg kick to get fouls. Come on MAN! Don't expect to see the foul line.

Heatcheck
06-20-2012, 11:40 AM
Agree 100percent. Cant use stats to justify that. Those people that do prob either didnt watch the game, or Just want the heat to lose bad enough that they will use any exusce in the book
dont be a hypocrite. you were just now arguing based on how many times went to the hole and got only 3 fts, but now its about context.

Heatcheck
06-20-2012, 11:41 AM
Proves me wrong? My point has been he should of gotten more then 3 FTA, and there are always calls for the more agressive team(usually). The guy asked how many times he drove the lane, the 7 times straight seemed like a good example considering I dont have an exact amount of times.

since you wanna talk about context of the game, how many times was he fouuled? all seven? three?

xxplayerxx23
06-20-2012, 11:42 AM
dont be a hypocrite. youwas just based soley on how many times went to the hole and got only 3 fts, but now its about context.

how? go watch the game, you see that he got pushed in midair and didnt get the call, I didnt say because he too 32 shots he should of got every call. He def should of gotten more then 3 FTA no doubt about that.

xxplayerxx23
06-20-2012, 11:43 AM
since you wanna talk about context of the game, how many times was he fouuled? all seven? three?

once or twice on those 7.

Green_Monster
06-20-2012, 11:45 AM
awesome. don't watch. go do some research on the celtics draft prospects. why complain if you seem to know what is going to happen in every game.

Nice job trying to insult my team. The Heat wouldn't have gotten by the Celtics if Games 1 and 2 were called fairly.

But the NBA has to make all of the bandwagoners (You), happy, and have the Heat win.

And why do I watch the games? Because I would like to see the Thunder beat the flopping Cheat. Oops, Heat.

Rivera
06-20-2012, 11:46 AM
When did i say the nba rigged is a fact?

Ive sad it numerious times but never stated it as a fact? The nba being rigged has always been my opinion its not my fault you take it as a fact

My interest in the nba has significally taken a huge hit. The only reason i still watch is because ive been a die hard nba fan since ive been born. I love basketball ive been around it my whole life. I watch it to see how i can improve on my game and how to make my teammates better

Still doesnt change the fact i think its rigged. Theres a reason the nba is the 3rd most popular sport in the US, because consumers dont have confidence in the product like they do for the nfl, and mlb. Truthfully by now if the nhl never locked itself out for a year and stayed on espn because then espns sportcenter would be forced to do more hockey coverage, the nhl woulda leaped over the nba by now.

I cant stay away from basketball cause its in my blood. Ive watched and played since i was a kid but that doesnt mean im not allowed to be disgusted by there current product or be able to critisize it? Im a consumer i have a right to complain about something im paying for. My nbatv and league pass subscriptions will be cancelled though because its just gotten unbearable

Playoff basketball is usually higher intesne and wayyy better than regular season games. But because of the refs and the obvious rigging this is the first season where i enjoyed the regular season more than the playoffs

Heatcheck
06-20-2012, 11:48 AM
once or twice on those 7.

idk, ill watch the replay later and we can pick this up again

LA_Raiders
06-20-2012, 11:50 AM
NO respect for OKC... Stern is doing a great job in making LeFlop a chump...

h2r09
06-20-2012, 11:51 AM
Nice job trying to insult my team. The Heat wouldn't have gotten by the Celtics if Games 1 and 2 were called fairly.

But the NBA has to make all of the bandwagoners (You), happy, and have the Heat win.

And why do I watch the games? Because I would like to see the Thunder beat the flopping Cheat. Oops, Heat.

haha. but they didn't, did they? you simply ****ing didn't. woulda coulda shoulda. you simply ****ing didn't. you had 2 games to close us out and you ****ing didn't.


haha, of course I'm a bandwagoner. that is your only insult. you think your opinion of me as a fan has any impact? your team is done.


the flopping cheat are 1 game away from the championship while your celtics are at home.

Heatcheck
06-20-2012, 12:04 PM
When did i say the nba rigged is a fact?

Ive sad it numerious times but never stated it as a fact? The nba being rigged has always been my opinion its not my fault you take it as a fact

My interest in the nba has significally taken a huge hit. The only reason i still watch is because ive been a die hard nba fan since ive been born. I love basketball ive been around it my whole life. I watch it to see how i can improve on my game and how to make my teammates better

Still doesnt change the fact i think its rigged. Theres a reason the nba is the 3rd most popular sport in the US, because consumers dont have confidence in the product like they do for the nfl, and mlb. Truthfully by now if the nhl never locked itself out for a year and stayed on espn because then espns sportcenter would be forced to do more hockey coverage, the nhl woulda leaped over the nba by now.

I cant stay away from basketball cause its in my blood. Ive watched and played since i was a kid but that doesnt mean im not allowed to be disgusted by there current product or be able to critisize it? Im a consumer i have a right to complain about something im paying for. My nbatv and league pass subscriptions will be cancelled though because its just gotten unbearable

Playoff basketball is usually higher intesne and wayyy better than regular season games. But because of the refs and the obvious rigging this is the first season where i enjoyed the regular season more than the playoffs

If you say so, buddy....ive been hearing people like you for years though, since i started watching. the league was rigged for larry because he's white, the lakers because theyre in hollywood and have the biggest fan base, Yoou couldnt touch jordan because he was the leagues cash cow and got to do whatever he wanted on and off the court, so on and so on.

yea of course they are your opinions but you believe them to be true, based off what knowledge? third and fourth hand accounts plus your suspicions?

thats like me saying i know a guy who knows a guy who knows another guy in the secret service (cant tell you who though), who says obamas a martian.

Heatcheck
06-20-2012, 12:04 PM
double post

The Flash
06-20-2012, 12:05 PM
Nice job trying to insult my team. The Heat wouldn't have gotten by the Celtics if Games 1 and 2 were called fairly.

But the NBA has to make all of the bandwagoners (You), happy, and have the Heat win.

And why do I watch the games? Because I would like to see the Thunder beat the flopping Cheat. Oops, Heat.

U mad?

The Flash
06-20-2012, 12:06 PM
:clap:
If you say so, buddy....ive been hearing people like you for years though, since i started watching. the league was rigged for larry because he's white, the lakers because theyre in hollywood and have the biggest fan base, Yoou couldnt touch jordan because he was the leagues cash cow and got to do whatever he wanted on and off the court, so on and so on.

yea of course they are your opinions but you believe them to be true, based off what knowledge? third and fourth hand accounts plus your suspicions?

thats like me saying i know a guy who knows a guy who knows another guy in the secret service (cant tell you who though), who says obamas a martian.

Lo Porto
06-20-2012, 12:16 PM
His jumpshot is so high and he pulls up so quickly that he very rarely is going to draw contact.

ManRam
06-20-2012, 12:20 PM
not saying you are wrong at all cause you are right, but whenever people question lbj and wade goes to the line so much, all people ***** about how they are attackers not only jump shooters. Well same case here.

Again, I'm not saying that he should have only had 3 FTA...I'm saying that proving so based on FGA isn't the way to go.

Aggression rewards...and often rewards with fouls drawn. It is rare to see someone so aggressive get to the line so little.


So russell westbrook wasnt aggressive and never drove the ball to the rim and didnt get the same favorable calls wade and lebron get everytime they drive the ball to the rim

Right?

Cause all 32 shots were jumpshots

As above. I'm disagreeing that he should have gotten more, I'm just saying there isn't always a correlation between FGA and FTA. The best way to PROVE foul-related stuff is the video. I was responding to your comment about how you thought it was weird that people who like stats (me) are not using stats here. The fact is, there is no stat that says how many FTA one should have. Since that's the case, and since fouls are black and white things, showing me clips of missed calls is the way to PROVE this. Not saying "32 FGA should get more 3 FTA".

I remember three times he was clearly fouled and it wasn't called. Might have been more. There were missed calls both ways, but the Heat were defending the rim well. Even in the Sportscenter highlights they were showing how the Heat players were contesting, but avoiding contact.

They even showed how Westbrook was avoiding contact on multiple plays. He was contorting his body and bringing the ball way outside to avoid it. He didn't always do it, but it was like LeBron who goes right at the body.


It is odd. I agree. You'd think that considering how aggressive he was he'd get more FTA. And he should have. But I'm just saying it's not always that simple.

Swashcuff
06-20-2012, 12:30 PM
Isn't it ironic that the only other player this that attempted 30+ FGAs and got to the line 3 or less times was Kevin Durant against the Trail Blazers. If I can say I remembered that game I would be lying but it would be interesting to know go back and see how many drives v jump shots KD had in that game. KD did attmept just 10 of his 33 shots in the painted area in that game however. Here is a link (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/shot-chart/201202060POR.html) to that game's shot chart.

Stinkyoutsider
06-20-2012, 12:45 PM
I wouldn't be too worried about Westbrook and 3 FTAs. He still had a fantastic game overall and he knew his shot was dropping so he was avoiding contact and scoring instead of taking a foul and most likely missing due to the contact. Avoiding the contact and scoring takes more work but it's more reliable than taking the foul, missing the FG, then making 2 free throws. Just about every coach preaches to the defender to foul instead of letting his man score a dunk or layup. Earn them at the line.

torocan
06-20-2012, 01:10 PM
then why watch? honest question here...

If you think it is rigged like wrestling... why are you wasting your time complaining about it. Do people really get on message boards and complain when John cena wins b/c its rigged...

And if it bothers you so much... stop watching and posting about it.

I really don't get what you hope to accomplish by complaining about the NBA being rigged...

Folks complain because they care, and sometimes consumers demanding changes can lead to changes in the game.

Flopping was raised over and over as an issue on the boards and public discourse for years. Eventually it hit the attention of the Media. Then Media talking heads like JVG start taking it up as a cause and it gains more attention.

Now, we have Stern forming an Anti-flopping committee.

Will it result in serious changes? Who knows... but at least the NBA is doing SOMETHING. And I guarantee that if Consumers weren't complaining, the NBA wouldn't be doing Anything.

Complaints after the 2002 WCF led to NBA investigations and a greater level of transparency by the NBA, as well as new rules regarding Referee behavior.

If fans become sufficiently unhappy, the NBA will at some point need to respond. This is why uneven officiating keeps getting raised.

This sort of officiating goes far beyond OKC/Miami, it goes to the very heart of the game.

Most fans want to see an evenly called game.

Calls will be missed, mistakes will be made, but all it takes is 2 eyes to see that a Foul on one end isn't a Foul on the other end. This strikes at the idea of fairness.

Some of the posters in this thread want play by play discussions to debate every single no-call. They entirely miss the point.

Watching the game holistically it's obvious to most fans that the calls for the Thunder were NOT held to the same standard as the calls for the Heat.

JVG said it during the game. A top flight coach who watches the game as a Profession, who analyzes every play instinctively saw multiple no calls for OKC and give away calls for Miami.

Timothy Legler noted it in his Twitter. A 14 year professional basketball player and 10 year commentator said it was OBVIOUS that OKC and Miami were being held to double-standards on the officiating.

Plenty of fans saw it clearly. They saw the difference when a foul would be called on minimal contact on one end, then nothing called with similar contact on the other end.

This doesn't detract from Miami's play. Miami played a very good game. Heat fans need to step back and seperate the Play of their team and the Officiating in the game.

However, when Officiating is in question it undermines the integrity of the League. It makes people worry that their teams aren't being treated fairly just because the opposing team has a bigger name "star" than their team.

Fans of the Celtics against Miami felt that way. Fans of the Spurs felt that way in game 6 against OKC. And Fans of OKC in their games against Miami felt that way.

Officiating should NOT be about who has the biggest stars. Teams should not feel compelled to always get a "superstar" in order to get a fair shake from the referees.

There are 30 teams in the league and it's bad for Basketball when Officiating is tilted towards the handful of teams with the top superstars.

Superstar calls are bad for the game. Period.

h2r09
06-20-2012, 01:12 PM
Folks complain because they care, and sometimes consumers demanding changes can lead to changes in the game.

Flopping was raised over and over as an issue on the boards and public discourse for years. Eventually it hit the attention of the Media. Then Media talking heads like JVG start taking it up as a cause and it gains more attention.

Now, we have Stern forming an Anti-flopping committee.

Will it result in serious changes? Who knows... but at least the NBA is doing SOMETHING. And I guarantee that if Consumers weren't complaining, the NBA wouldn't be doing Anything.

Complaints after the 2006 WCF led to NBA investigations and a greater level of transparency by the NBA, as well as new rules regarding Referee behavior.

If fans become sufficiently unhappy, the NBA will at some point need to respond. This is why uneven officiating keeps getting raised.

This sort of officiating goes far beyond OKC/Miami, it goes to the very heart of the game.

Most fans want to see an evenly called game.

Calls will be missed, mistakes will be made, but all it takes is 2 eyes to see that a Foul on one end isn't a Foul on the other end. This strikes at the idea of fairness.

Some of the posters in this thread want play by play discussions to debate every single no-call. They entirely miss the point.

Watching the game holistically it's obvious to most fans that the calls for the Thunder were NOT held to the same standard as the calls for the Heat.

JVG said it during the game. A top flight coach who watches the game as a Profession, who analyzes every play instinctively saw multiple no calls for OKC and give away calls for Miami.

Timothy Legler noted it in his Twitter. A 14 year professional basketball player and 10 year commentator said it was OBVIOUS that OKC and Miami were being held to double-standards on the officiating.

Plenty of fans saw it clearly. They saw the difference when a foul would be called on minimal contact on one end, then nothing called with similar contact on the other end.

This doesn't detract from Miami's play. Miami played a very good game. Heat fans need to step back and seperate the Play of their team and the Officiating in the game.

However, when Officiating is in question it undermines the integrity of the League. It makes people worry that their teams aren't being treated fairly just because the opposing team has a bigger name "star" than their team.

Fans of the Celtics against Miami felt that way. Fans of the Spurs felt that way in game 6 against OKC. And Fans of OKC in their games against Miami felt that way.

Officiating should NOT be about who has the biggest stars. Teams should not feel compelled to always get a "superstar" in order to get a fair shake from the referees.

There are 30 teams in the league and it's bad for Basketball when Officiating is tilted towards the handful of teams with the top superstars.

Superstar calls are bad for the game. Period.

you should cry about it,. complaining about it on an internet forum will definitely help it.

it is what it is. either watch or don't. nobody cares.

Rivera
06-20-2012, 01:20 PM
If you say so, buddy....ive been hearing people like you for years though, since i started watching. the league was rigged for larry because he's white, the lakers because theyre in hollywood and have the biggest fan base, Yoou couldnt touch jordan because he was the leagues cash cow and got to do whatever he wanted on and off the court, so on and so on.

yea of course they are your opinions but you believe them to be true, based off what knowledge? third and fourth hand accounts plus your suspicions?

thats like me saying i know a guy who knows a guy who knows another guy in the secret service (cant tell you who though), who says obamas a martian.

so where were you when your buddy wade>you would call the nba rigged? :eyebrow:

its my opinion that the nba is fixed and the knowledge is the lottery starting with pat ewing to the 2002 western conference finals to the past 2 lotterys to this years nba finals

i can believe what i want and you can believe what you want ive never said the nba rigged is a fact its my belief and if you dont like my opinion dont comment on it

Green_Monster
06-20-2012, 01:41 PM
haha. but they didn't, did they? you simply ****ing didn't. woulda coulda shoulda. you simply ****ing didn't. you had 2 games to close us out and you ****ing didn't.


haha, of course I'm a bandwagoner. that is your only insult. you think your opinion of me as a fan has any impact? your team is done.


the flopping cheat are 1 game away from the championship while your celtics are at home.

They didn't because it wasn't called fairly. Do you not understand that?

Yes, you are a bandwagoner. No denying it between your join date and stupidity.

The Cheat shouldn't be there. Why are they? Because of the refs.


U mad?

Nice join date.

tht_one_guy
06-20-2012, 01:50 PM
really did any of u even watched the game last night westbrook got hammered many times in the paint and no call then he goes off and shows how biased the refs were when wade got the foul for leaning in to the defender then on the other end westbrook did the same thing and no call u want a real stat the last 2 games the heat have 20 more free throws than okc and u all cant say okc has been settling for jump shots but okc has to play smarter if they want to win games too many late game screw ups in the last 2 like i have said all year and the year before the players r the ones ruining this game all the flopping and acting like u got to get sympathy calls from the zebras has gotten out of control these guys fall more than a 4 yr old ice skating

Baller1
06-20-2012, 01:51 PM
I don't even think there's one OKC fan in here arguing, haha.

utl768
06-20-2012, 01:56 PM
its because its rigged

the miami heat get all the free throws because david stern wants them to win

david stern also forced westbrook to foul chalmers and then stern forced lebron to drain a three because he kidnapped gloria james and handcuffed her to a horny delonte west

david stern also went back into his time machine and grabbed reggie miller from 1993 and dressed him in a norris cole body suit so the heat could get back into the game in the 2nd quarter

its get better though because when the game was still tied david stern also went back in time and stole michael jordan from 1988 and dressed him in a mario chalmers body suit so he could get that crazy layup in the final minute

its all one big conspiracy

Swashcuff
06-20-2012, 01:59 PM
its because its rigged

the miami heat get all the free throws because david stern wants them to win

david stern also forced westbrook to foul chalmers and then stern forced lebron to drain a three because he kidnapped gloria james and handcuffed her to a horny delonte west

david stern also went back into his time machine and grabbed reggie miller from 1993 and dressed him in a norris cole body suit so the heat could get back into the game in the 2nd quarter

its get better though because when the game was still tied david stern also went back in time and stole michael jordan from 1988 and dressed him in a mario chalmers body suit so he could get that crazy layup in the final minute

its all one big conspiracy

:laugh2:

:laugh:

h2r09
06-20-2012, 02:12 PM
They didn't because it wasn't called fairly. Do you not understand that?

Yes, you are a bandwagoner. No denying it between your join date and stupidity.

The Cheat shouldn't be there. Why are they? Because of the refs.



Nice join date.

they didn't call it fairly because your team lost. quit crying over refs. that is the definition of a loser.

i don't even know my join date on here but that is the sole definition of my fan hood? I've been a heat season ticket holder since wade's rookie year.

i was there when we lost game 7 to the pistons as well as the next year when we beat the pistons in game 6 led by jason williams with wade sick.

quit crying. you always have the sawx.

YOLO
06-20-2012, 02:15 PM
Let me get this right...

The people who think the NBA is rigged are complaining that Westbrook didn't get enough fouls just based off the number of FGA's he had? You're complaining because he is a star and took that many shots, he should automatically get more free throw attempts.

That is pretty much saying the league is rigged because the refs weren't biased towards a star. Sweet, complaining that the league is rigged because it wasn't being rigged. You conspiracy theorists will come up with anything.

tht_one_guy
06-20-2012, 02:19 PM
Let me get this right...

The people who think the NBA is rigged are complaining that Westbrook didn't get enough fouls just based off the number of FGA's he had? You're complaining because he is a star and took that many shots, he should automatically get more free throw attempts.

That is pretty much saying the league is rigged because the refs weren't biased towards a star. Sweet, complaining that the league is rigged because it wasn't being rigged. You conspiracy theorists will come up with anything.

if u didnt watch last nights game then dont post

ChicagoJ
06-20-2012, 02:20 PM
I don't think the game is rigged, but the way the officials go about calling a game results in lopsided calling in some games. They get together after each game and go over all the calls. But when they make adjustments to try and get calls right they wind up favoring certain players even if they don't approach it like that.

From what I saw, yesterday it was mostly the ticky tack fouls they were calling on the thunder and then the no calls on the other end. The thunder should have had another 5 points in that game at least. I still think Miami played better overall, but the officiating was a joke imo. I turned the game off twice due to it. Maybe I'm biased because I want OKC to win, but the calls seemed lopsided in the second half to me.

Chronz
06-20-2012, 02:58 PM
I picked the team (I picked Miami to win), and I picked how many games it would be in (I picked 6 games); and the only way I win is if the Thunder win another.

And thus, I admit that my opinion might be somewhat biased.
Well its good that you clarified, you didnt say any of that in your first post but the point Im making is that there is still no relevance, I had OKC in 6, by your logic wouldnt my opinion be skewed as well? Its an empty gesture.

And the reason I found it odd is that a friend of mine had Miami in 7 and he was begging for the Heat to lose this game, knowing that the likelihood of a G7 gos down with a 3-1 deficit, I know this doesnt apply to you since you had them in 6 but I would be more comfortable if the Heat didnt have a chance to close them out. To each his own but there is no doubt there is no relevance here.


I can't spell it out any better than this. Think about it... it'll come to you.
No you spelled it out perfectly, much better than your initial post. But think about what Im questioning. What I found odd was your gambling method but what Im questioning is the relevance of it. Again, I HAD OKC IN 6. By your logic I should be biased as well, yet here I am, denying your claims.





It's not necessarily a case of a rigged game. It could be pure incompetence. But Westbrook's numbers stand out as odd. 32 shots and only 3 FT attempts.
This is a horrible form of analysis, more shots doesnt equal more fta, contact does.


If we take Westbrook's own team members, the stats are unusual. For example, Sefolosha only took 7 shot attempts, but had just as many FT attempts (3), and 3 of those shots were three-point attempts... so it's 3/4 = 75% of Sefolosha's shots ended in FT attempts.
Can you check your numbers, nothing you said was true. Thabo took 7 shots but got ZERO FTA. But there is nothing unusual, sure they could have given Westbrook more just as they could have given Bron/Wade more, there was incidental contact on quite a few of their plays but the difference was the amount of contact they drew. Show me the stat for that.




24% versus 46% is a striking difference. In a typical game, where both teams are driving teams, but where the teams are pretty well matched in terms of style, you wouldn't expect this disparity.
Can you show proof that they played a similar style IN THIS GAME?


What is interesting is that the Thunder made 15/16 FT. The Heat made 18/25 FT. It's almost as if the Thunder's typical FT shooting advantage (in %), was negated by a lack of calls. It's oddly convenient for the Heat.

There is certainly reason to question the lack of foul calls for Westbrook (btw, I hate the dude).
People can question anything, but the answer would be that he took 20+ jumpshots and the lack of contested shots he had in the paint.

Chronz
06-20-2012, 02:59 PM
The statistics don't suggest that the missed calls were evenly dispersed between the two teams.
Show me these statistics.


The Heat took 25 three pointers, and had 79 shots all together, and went to the line 26 times.

The Thunder took 16 three pointers, and had 82 shots all together, and went to the line 16 times.

I don't know what the shots in the paint were, but if we consider these stats alone, it doesn't look like there were an equal number of missed calls. Plus, you'd have to consider that because in the previous games the Thunder were in foul trouble, they probably weren't playing it as close... trying to avoid the hair trigger on the refs for calling fouls.

This is definitely a statistical anomaly.
Again, which plays were there missed calls. Simply tallying up shot attempts says nothing about the amount of contact involved.

Chronz
06-20-2012, 03:05 PM
Actually if you're trying to argue that the there were an even number of calls/noncalls I suggest not telling him to watch the game, otherwise it would be painfully obvious you're wrong.

Just ask Jeff Van Gundy. The dude had at least a dozen times where he was like "That wasn't a foul" when it was called against the Thunder.

An especially memorable one was when Wade drove to the hoop and they originally called the foul on Durant and he was like "That wasn't a foul", then they changed it to Westbrook and he was like "Let's look again... NOPE. They should've given the call to Aldrich on the bench, he touched Wade as much as anyone else'. Pretty bad call.

Dozen? LOL cmon you dont need to exaggerate to get your point across.

Chronz
06-20-2012, 03:09 PM
heat fans sit here and try to say he wasnt getting hit, he took it to the hole more then anybody in the game.3 ft attempts are a little fishy should of been a lot more, Doesnt matter they lost the game and they were in it and should of won. Nothing you can do

lol

Alot more? Attacking the lane more than anyone? Well by your breakdown I would think he wasnt taking more than 20 jumpers, yet here we are, with the Heat conceding the midrange game, also attacking the paint is one thing but drawing contact is another. The Heat were in the post alot more.

Chronz
06-20-2012, 03:09 PM
not saying you are wrong at all cause you are right, but whenever people question lbj and wade goes to the line so much, all people ***** about how they are attackers not only jump shooters. Well same case here.
Same case here? I dont get it

AlmostThere
06-20-2012, 03:10 PM
really did any of u even watched the game last night westbrook got hammered many times in the paint and no call then he goes off and shows how biased the refs were when wade got the foul for leaning in to the defender then on the other end westbrook did the same thing and no call u want a real stat the last 2 games the heat have 20 more free throws than okc and u all cant say okc has been settling for jump shots but okc has to play smarter if they want to win games too many late game screw ups in the last 2 like i have said all year and the year before the players r the ones ruining this game all the flopping and acting like u got to get sympathy calls from the zebras has gotten out of control these guys fall more than a 4 yr old ice skating

:clap: i noticed that too. 20 extra free throw attempts for one team over the other in only 2 games seems like too many not to question the calls. If it were a number like 5 or 6 per game it wouldn't be that bad. But please, thunder were getting the most FTA per game during the regular season. Sure your not going to get some of the same calls during the Finals But for one team to have a 20 FTA attempt advantage over the other team over the past 2 games is ridiculous. Not even in that Game 6 between the Lakers and Kings do we see a number like that. i think someone put up the stats for that earlier and it was way closer in that game that in any of these past 2 games.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGaMz0T9wxM At the foul call a little after 1:36 there is clearly no foul. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joI3Ng21moU They won't even let Thunder D-up. The calls have been biased allowing Miami to crash the boards and Have way more active hands than OKC. I've seen multiple times Haslam and Battier push the thunder players out of the way to get a rebound. If Perkins tried to use his size like that its a foul way more often than for Miami. I don't know if anyone else saw Fisher go for that rebound somewhere in the fourth and get straight jumped into and sent flying by haslam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsQS8C_KE1w
Here is Westbrook's 43. at 4:20 if it was wade shooting that shot he would have gotten the And 1. Guaranteed. 5:55 also looks like a And 1. And 6:10 would have definitely been an And 1 for either Lebron or Wade. Thats only 6 FTA if they gave him those. Considering it was only a 3 point game. before that silly foul it would have made it a much closer game. He wouldn't have even thought about making that foul. But i also saw him pumpfake at some point in the game have the defender fall on him and get no call. He wasn't in a shooting motion but it could have potentially gotten the heat to the penalty 1 foul sooner.

And lets keep this clear, I'm not a OKC fan. I just feel the Heat are getting more calls in their favor. Game 3 was lost by the Thunder when Durant got his 4th foul and the Heat went on that Big run. I think it was something like 17-3 might be wrong on that number but correct me if i am. Thunder would have at least scored more than 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joI3Ng21moU Im pretty sure some of those weren't fouls. especially the fourth one when the refs didn't give Durant that same call at the end of game 2 even though there was clearly more contact in that play.

And who else thinks Wade and Lebron deserve Oscars for those performances last night. I highly doubt their injuries were anywhere near as bad as they made it seem.

Chronz
06-20-2012, 03:13 PM
The two main claims from Donaghy were about the 2002 WCF and the 2007 WCS. He had no evidence for either other than his own accounts. But as I said earlier, other officials could easily refute this and lie for Stern leaving Donaghy as non-credible witness. This would happen regardless, even if there was truth to these two particular claims or not.

Donaghy had no quantifiable claims as well as any sort of evidence. I guess in the end you just have to choose what you want to believe based on your own better judgement. Again even if 10% is true, Stern is guilty. I find it hard to believe that 100% of what he said was completely false. That said, I will concede that there was a great deal of falseness to his allegations. You have to admit that Donaghy did succeed in the fact that people now question David Stern like never before.

My stance is simple, if you have to lie about the only tangible evidence you could possibly have, it makes it incredibly difficult to believe the subjective issues your attempting to arise.

In my eyes Donaghy has only succeeded in giving people more fodder arguments.

Chronz
06-20-2012, 03:38 PM
:clap: i noticed that too. 20 extra free throw attempts for one team over the other in only 2 games seems like too many not to question the calls. If it were a number like 5 or 6 per game it wouldn't be that bad. But please, thunder were getting the most FTA per game during the regular season. Sure your not going to get some of the same calls during the Finals But for one team to have a 20 FTA attempt advantage over the other team over the past 2 games is ridiculous. Not even in that Game 6 between the Lakers and Kings do we see a number like that. i think someone put up the stats for that earlier and it was way closer in that game that in any of these past 2 games.
Check that series again. Kings got 20 more FTA in a single game vs the Lakers. Lakers got 15 more in G.6. It happens. It doesnt decide a series in my book.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGaMz0T9wxM At the foul call a little after 1:36 there is clearly no foul.
yup, horrible call.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joI3Ng21moU They won't even let Thunder D-up.
Most of those were legit, the Wade call was iffy but I can understand the refs calling it based on Durant jumping for the up fake, he has to be disciplined there.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsQS8C_KE1w

Here is Westbrook's 43. at 4:20 if it was wade shooting that shot he would have gotten the And 1. Guaranteed.
Thats hilarious considering the play they show right before that was Wade slashing to the rim and drawing contact with Nick Collison. It was a good no call in my book because Collison didnt attempt to block the shot, he just stood there and absorbed the contact. Same thing here, check out Udonis standing there and not swiping at his body. Thats not a foul otherwise Wade should have gotten the call vs Collison.


5:55 also looks like a And 1.
Looks like a good contest to me, considering Battiers history I would have given him the benefit of the doubt there as well. Do you have a closer look?


And 6:10 would have definitely been an And 1 for either Lebron or Wade.
A hookshot gliding away from defenses? Wade would never make that attempt, he actually looks to draw contact.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joI3Ng21moU Im pretty sure some of those weren't fouls. especially the fourth one when the refs didn't give Durant that same call at the end of game 2 even though there was clearly more contact in that play.
Agreed, but the G2 foul happened on the floor. Wade has been gifted more FT's than anyone this series. What the defender has to do is adapt and not overreact, if you jump on an upfake your going to make it easier for the ref to assume contact was made.


And who else thinks Wade and Lebron deserve Oscars for those performances last night. I highly doubt their injuries were anywhere near as bad as they made it seem.
I doubt Bron would willingly sit out extended time if he didnt have to. Particularly with so much on the line. Whats even more disturbing is how OKC refused to adapt. Knowing Bron is limited and hobbled why would Thabo let Bron walk into a rhythm 3pter? Why not body him up and force him to take a tougher jumper? Then on the other end with Bron on Westbrook, why bail him out by taking a long 2?

Chronz
06-20-2012, 03:47 PM
I think Westbrook should have gotten 2-3 more calls, max. Anything more than that and I think your giving too much credit to a player who primarily relied on jumpshots and uncontested shots at the rim.

Gritz
06-20-2012, 03:48 PM
Stern

Swashcuff
06-20-2012, 03:52 PM
I think Westbrook should have gotten 2-3 more calls, max. Anything more than that and I think your giving too much credit to a player who primarily relied on jumpshots and uncontested shots at the rim.

:nod:

Green_Monster
06-20-2012, 03:53 PM
they didn't call it fairly because your team lost. quit crying over refs. that is the definition of a loser.

i don't even know my join date on here but that is the sole definition of my fan hood? I've been a heat season ticket holder since wade's rookie year.

i was there when we lost game 7 to the pistons as well as the next year when we beat the pistons in game 6 led by jason williams with wade sick.

quit crying. you always have the sawx.

You would be pissed if your team got knocked out by a team that was worse because of the refs.

Nice job trying to defend it.

Also, your grammar is ****.

Chronz
06-20-2012, 04:00 PM
:nod:

The layup where Breen says he got hit in the eye should have been an AND1.

The jumper where he sticks out his leg had contact, refs probably saw him flail his legs and just rolled their eyes. I dont blame them but Durant got the call anyways.

The floater where he was pushed by James Jones I think should have gotten him 2fta, its hard to tell because I dont know if he was gliding away on purpose or if James Jones made him glide that way. Questionable

So thats 2 and1s and another miss. Thats 2-4FTA missed in my book. The rest were questionable at best.

Sssmush
06-20-2012, 04:33 PM
lol

Alot more? Attacking the lane more than anyone? Well by your breakdown I would think he wasnt taking more than 20 jumpers, yet here we are, with the Heat conceding the midrange game, also attacking the paint is one thing but drawing contact is another. The Heat were in the post alot more.

I almost feel that the logic of the referees, and the thinking of the announcers and analysts who try to interpret the logic of the referees, is that Westbrook MADE his shots, so in that sense he isn't necessarily entitled to FTs.

Meanwhile, Wade MISSED his shots, and had driven to the key or the wing, pump faked and charged into the defender with the express purpose of drawing contact, so he has therefore EARNED FTs, even if the contact is very slight or somewhat nonexistent, or much less than what Westy gets taking it all the way to the whole, and therefore they are obligated to give Wade some FTs at least 75% of the time. If he doesn't get a foul on two takes in a row, it's like the whole team is yelling at the refs, and then he drives one more time, even if nobody is near him, I just dare you not to call a foul. That type of thing.

Sssmush
06-20-2012, 04:45 PM
OK, here is the situation. I'm not saying this is fair or unfair, and I am totally not a conspiracy guy. Witness my previous lengthy debate on why the lottery isn't likely to be rigged, and that there is no "proof" or evidence of rigging whatsoever. This just IS WHAT IT IS. Just the facts:

In the last two games (games 3 and 4 in Miami):

Westbrook has scored 62 pts, on 28-50 shooting, with a 53.8 FG%, and has shot 5 FTs.

DWade has scored 50 pts, on 16-41 shooting, with a 39.0 FG%, and has shot 20 FTs.

The two games have been won by a total of 12 points, although they were actually far closer than the final score would suggest.

Sssmush
06-20-2012, 05:00 PM
From Timothy Legler's twitter...

@LegsESPN

“OKC cannot get the benefit of the doubt on any calls. Too many touch calls for the NBA Finals.”

“Mia is playing great. Make no mistake. But it’s getting ridiculous how few calls they (Thunder) get on similar plays to what Mia gets. Obvious.”

When someone attacked Legler for saying he was just mad the Thunder wouldn’t win in 6 games like he predicted (as did i) Tim responded by saying...

“I don’t care who wins. Dude change that tune. I’m just saying what I’m seeing.”

It ain't just the OKC fans that had issues with the officiating.

Yah, it's obvious. My girlfriend is asian, and she doesn't know anything about basketball whatsoever. I even needed to explain and teach her that the teams get points whenever the ball goes into the hoop.

and trust me, by the end of game 4 she was jumping up and down saying "wtf?? OKC got fouled! why didn't they get a call?" and then it's punctuated with a instant FTs at the other end of the court.

I mean, how many times was Westbrook flattened in the lane on layup attempts, sliding on his belly into the courtside cameras? How many times? 12 or something?

That Chronz analysis of each of Westbrook's attempts, where every shot he says "minimal contact" or that Westbrook "slid away from" or "evaded" contact is laughable. Talk about subjective. Westbrook had body and hands on him every single shot more or less. If it makes sense to you, then, fine, but it's so obvious.

Legler states it exactly right, OKC was not getting the benefit of the doubt on ANY calls, and it's felt that way for games 2, 3 and 4.

Although I really felt that OKC was "supposed" to win game 4 last night, that the refs had left them in a position to "pull it out" with "last minute heroics" but they made a series of bad plays, allowing for Lebron to triumph with a historical "Gatorade" moment, gatorade raising Lebron like Lazarus, allowing him to triumph in the moment of glory.

I think somebody called the Heat bench on their Verizon phone, and said "quick, get Lebron some Gatorade (tm), and make sure his Nike shoes are correctly tied." The rest, as they say, is immortal NBA history now.

Sssmush
06-20-2012, 05:08 PM
This is a pretty crazy stat. Because Westbrook gets to the rim with the same velocity and strength as Lebron James to where the majority of the time they get fouled but they are so strong you cant tell. The thing was Lebron James always gets these calls and Westbrook did not.

And one more thing, that people aren't talking about, is that down the stretch in the final minutes, when Westbrook has only got to the line once in 33 shot attempts, he is much more likely to go for a pullup than the drive the lane again, understanding that even if he gets creamed by the defense, he has no reason to expect free throws.

knicks4life33
06-20-2012, 05:10 PM
yeah cause the refs are calling it one sided duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

AlmostThere
06-20-2012, 06:08 PM
Check that series again. Kings got 20 more FTA in a single game vs the Lakers. Lakers got 15 more in G.6. It happens. It doesnt decide a series in my book.



yup, horrible call.


Most of those were legit, the Wade call was iffy but I can understand the refs calling it based on Durant jumping for the up fake, he has to be disciplined there.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsQS8C_KE1w

Thats hilarious considering the play they show right before that was Wade slashing to the rim and drawing contact with Nick Collison. It was a good no call in my book because Collison didnt attempt to block the shot, he just stood there and absorbed the contact. Same thing here, check out Udonis standing there and not swiping at his body. Thats not a foul otherwise Wade should have gotten the call vs Collison.


Looks like a good contest to me, considering Battiers history I would have given him the benefit of the doubt there as well. Do you have a closer look?


A hookshot gliding away from defenses? Wade would never make that attempt, he actually looks to draw contact.


Agreed, but the G2 foul happened on the floor. Wade has been gifted more FT's than anyone this series. What the defender has to do is adapt and not overreact, if you jump on an upfake your going to make it easier for the ref to assume contact was made.


I doubt Bron would willingly sit out extended time if he didnt have to. Particularly with so much on the line. Whats even more disturbing is how OKC refused to adapt. Knowing Bron is limited and hobbled why would Thabo let Bron walk into a rhythm 3pter? Why not body him up and force him to take a tougher jumper? Then on the other end with Bron on Westbrook, why bail him out by taking a long 2?

For the 4:20 Moment. Haslam is still sliding his left foot and could have been called for a blocking violation. And i think seeing the way Westbrook had to pump fake it in the air and shoot it over Haslam it looks like Haslam would have hit his arms at some point. And if you can find a clip of the play with collison, ill take a look at it. Think i remember seeing it during the game but even Van Gundy agreed it was a good no call. This however we can see Haslam loses his balance after the contact and has his body turned by the momentum Westbrook was carrying. The 5:56 moment to me looks like a debatable foul. You have a point but battier was in the restricted area and the way he flew after the contact makes it seem like he had to absorb some of the Momentum Westbrook was bringing with him to the rim. And he made it so im pretty sure he didn't get a hand on the ball. Simple physics. For every action, there must be an equal and opposite reaction. However Considering how much of a flopper Battier is, its hard to be certain. But from the looks of hit he took that momentum that westbrook had going and got sent back a few feet. I'd rather they call that for a Star play carrying the team on his back than to eat the whistle because Battier is perceived as a good defender. He is a Role player at best and shouldn't be the reason Westbrook doesn't get that call. Then the 6:10 lay up we see westbrook slightly lose his balance and it looks like wade throw an elbow. If the refs had more respect for him they would have made the call like they've been doing for Wade since he went on the terrible shooting slump sometime in the last series. Lebron James and Dwayne Wade shot a combined 17 FTA last night. That's more than the entire Thunder teams 16 FTA. I just feel that's a little biased and something should be done to correct that. Its hard to say that an entire team didn't attack the rim more than 2 players combined. At least give Westbrook 5 FTA so you don't make it clearly obvious that you are favoring two players over an entire team.

And if you want to get picky and say that Durant's 4th foul was there. Then the 1st one is a move lebron uses regularly and doesn't get called for. He even uses forearms and Elbows to make extra room at times. Example of that in the Game 3 highlights when Harden gets the blocking foul while gaurding Lebron. I hated how the ref that made the call wasn't even in position to see the play clearly. If they didn't make the call in game 2 b/c they didn't have a clear view how can he make it here. Even Shaq who use to use elbows alot states in that video that it wasn't a foul on James Harden. The 2nd foul was a foul, no doubt about it. I don't know however if King James or Wade would have been called for the same foul. The 3rd foul you clearly see in the slow motion replay that Lebron pulled Durant through that screen. I'm not sure it can be called an offensive foul but clearly it wasn't a foul on durant. the fourth foul, he did bite on the pumpfake. However, from what i saw, He jumped straight up and down. No foul there, Wade clearly initiated the contact by leaning back into Durant.

And i agree that foul started on the ground. But Lebron goes on to slow Durant's upward moment from the Jumpshot by pushing his forearm into his chest then Down into his Knee as Durant goes up. He is clearly inhibiting the shooting motion and should have gotten the foul. He even Slaps Westbrook's wrist as he goes for the rebound.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTfmiuZqFcU&feature=related

Durant had a foul that game where he got called for trying for a steal after a battier got a rebound. there was equal amount of contact there to when Westbrook went for the rebound and got hacked. Doesn't matter if Lebron was going for the ball. He still made the contact and should have gotten called for it. Considering Durant had already missed 2 free throws that night, he might have missed one and Heat would have still had the lead with around 10 second or a little more on the clock. The refs should have made the call and left the game up to the players to decide the outcome. They had an immediate effect on the game the moment they decided to eat the whistle and rob the viewers of what could have been an exciting overtime game. Even if it was called on the ground. would have been an extra possession for the Thunder and Durant was having a crazy 4th quarter that game. I have a feeling he would have found a shot

And as to your Wade looks for contact arguement, Wade is listed at 220 pounds. Westbrook is listed at 187 pounds. If Westbrook tried to take some of the same contact as Wade he would be looking at way more injuries throughout his career. A hit from the same player would affect Westbrook more than Wade.

And im not saying he wasn't hurting. I just feel if his quad was really that bad then he wouldn't have been able to get a proper jumpshot at that moment. Hes not going to get the same lift and it would have altered his shot. He's a good player but he not very consistent from 3 point range even though he has improved since last season. And your right. As soon as i saw it happen i was like YEESS 5 on 4 Offense, OKC is about to convert for some easy points. Then it saw a lay up attempt with a non set defense and i was like this. I understand why Westbrook took that jump shot after lebron was gaurding him, he was making it all night. He had a good chance of making it there. However should have asked for an ISO play and beat Lebron to the rim or made a play. Heck even a PnR would have been nice to see when Lebron was obviously hurting. A rotation would have been slow and who know, if your lucky Durant or Westbrook get a nice easy shot. :speechless: :facepalm: . For him to even be able to put off that shot is redonkulous. There was no way he was going to attack the rim the way he was Waddling like a duck around the court. Unless of course it was all an act like that game where paul pierce had to get carried off to the locker room and came back running 5 minutes later. I certainly don't think Lebron needed to get carried off the court in the dramatic matter he did. He even Yelled S@@t at the top of his lungs at some point in that timeout. Just seemed a little much for a cramp. Hell Rose tore his ACL and had less of reaction than Lebron did.

Rose http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqWC2vDFm-k
Lechoke, ooops i mean Lebron http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1W7Z50S6ww

The main thing i don't like is the inconsistency with calls. Thats a potential 20 free points with no defense on you for one team and the games have been within 3 points or less in the closing minute for both games.

this was a highway robbery too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjnDQPuju4U And then they even gave Garnett another foul after that when wade kicked him. was a 50/50 call but how can they call that foul in favor of the heat when they missed the other one right before.

And I watched the documentary at some point of the beginning of the year. Just didn't feel like looking for the stats for that game but yeah. these past 2 games are reminiscent of that. Game 1 Had 9 FTA advantage for OKC but they were playing at home and the margin of the win was 11 points. Unless MIA made some of those missed free throws OKC still wins. And that's if we take away 9 makes not misses. Game 2 was more even with OKC shooting 26 FTA and MIA shooting 25. No homecourt advantage for the calls is evident here. So While playing in OKC the thunder shot an extra 10 freethrows that MIA didn't. Consider the missed call at end of game 2 it could have been 12. These past two games have not shown the same trend. Game 3 MIA shot 35 FTA and OKC shooting 24 thats +11 for for MIA. The Margin of the victory for this game was 6 points. Let say we even things out for this game. MIA shot 88.6% that night so if we choose an easy number like 10 and round down that number to 80% since we are taking away points. Take away 8 points and MIA is down 2 points. I would rather see Lebron or wade try a clutch shot to take the win than have them win because they shot 11 more free throws. Doesn't look good for the NBA when a foul is such a subjective call. then game 4 MIA shot 25 and OKC shot only 16. +9 for MIA. The strange thing about this game is that Wade and Lebron Alone shot a combined 17 FTA, that's more than the entire Thunder Team. If the thunder recieved one more two more calls in their favor it Most likely wouldn't have been a 3 point game at the time and there would have been no way Westbrook would have fouled Chalmers with it only being a 1 point game. It seems to me from these numbers that MIA is being favored more at home than OKC was in their home games. If in either game 3 or game 4 MIA didn't receive an advantage in free throws like the thunder didn't on their own home court in game 2. I feel like the Heat could have and would most likely have lost one of those games.

Lets keep in mind that OKC had the most FTA in the regular season. I just find it strange for either team to have such large advantages from FTA alone. Sure the past 3 games have been competitive, but each time during the closing minutes it seems the thunder are somehow fighting their way back from a deficit. It seems to me like Stern wants OKC to win only if they can hit buzzer beaters and fight their way back from under the opponent, like they've done in the previous series'. Game 4 was the first game where they weren't facing a deficit at halftime. Just my belief though. In my opinion the series should at least be 2-2. 3 games in row where fouls have had such a large impact on the outcomes of the games is just fishy. These are the two best teams in basketball. FTA shouldn't be so one sided when both teams are the best the league has to offer.

AlmostThere
06-20-2012, 06:11 PM
I think Westbrook should have gotten 2-3 more calls, max. Anything more than that and I think your giving too much credit to a player who primarily relied on jumpshots and uncontested shots at the rim.

I agree completely. The problem is that is isn't only him that isn't getting the calls, its the entire thunder team.

Green_Monster
06-20-2012, 06:18 PM
Holy ****! Nice essay, AlmostThere.

Green_Monster
06-20-2012, 06:22 PM
I agree completely. The problem is that is isn't only him that isn't getting the calls, its the entire thunder team.

This is spot on.

xxplayerxx23
06-20-2012, 06:33 PM
lol

Alot more? Attacking the lane more than anyone? Well by your breakdown I would think he wasnt taking more than 20 jumpers, yet here we are, with the Heat conceding the midrange game, also attacking the paint is one thing but drawing contact is another. The Heat were in the post alot more.

He did attack a lot. who attacked the lane more yesterday? He took mid range shots no doubt, Im not arguing that he should of went to the line 15 20 times. My thing is he should of gotten more then 3 FTA I seen a good 5 plays that he drove and there was plenty of contact. The one where he was pushed in midair was one of them. The heat deserved there 25 FTA I just think westbrook should of gotten more then 3

Sssmush
06-20-2012, 07:02 PM
And if you want to get picky and say that Durant's 4th foul was there. Then the 1st one is a move lebron uses regularly and doesn't get called for. He even uses forearms and Elbows to make extra room at times. Example of that in the Game 3 highlights when Harden gets the blocking foul while gaurding Lebron. I hated how the ref that made the call wasn't even in position to see the play clearly. If they didn't make the call in game 2 b/c they didn't have a clear view how can the make it here. Even Shaq who use to use elbows alot states in that video that it wasn't a foul on James Harden. The 2nd foul was a foul, no doubt about it. I don't know however if King James or Wade would have been called for the same foul. The 3rd foul you clearly see in the slow motion replay that Lebron pulled Durant through that screen. I'm not sure it can be called an offensive foul but clearly it wasn't a foul on durant. the fourth foul, he did bite on the pumpfake. However, from what i saw, He jumped straight up and down. No foul there, Wade clearly initiated the contact by leaning back into Durant.

And i agree that foul started on the ground. But Lebron goes on to slow Durant's upward moment from the Jumpshot by pushing his forearm into his chest then Down into his Knee as Durant up. He is clearly inhibiting the shooting motion and should have gotten the foul. He even Slaps Westbrooks wrist as he goes for the rebound.



Nice post, nice observations.

Also, I'd mention that Lebron doesn't have a very good poker face. As he runs up the court, you can clearly tell from his expression when he knows he just got away with one. And like you point out, the sneaky elbow or push downward into the hips or the legs, those kind of things, he clearly is aware that he can foul like that and get away with it most of the time. It's natural, if you're getting away with it you will do it.

But he clearly almost looks mad in a way, as if he knows he got outplayed but had to get the points given to him and his frustration shows

Sssmush
06-20-2012, 07:04 PM
Like he of course knows he just committed two separate fouls and totally got away with it, and then gets FTs awarded to himself instead, but instead of celebrating he looks very frustrated and angry, almost disappointed

AlmostThere
06-20-2012, 07:30 PM
Like he of course knows he just committed two separate fouls and totally got away with it, and then gets FTs awarded to himself instead, but instead of celebrating he looks very frustrated and angry, almost disappointed

Lmao i notice that too. After the game 2 *win* when they were going into the locker room it looks like he knew he got away with murder, and everyone knew it. He knew everyone was going to talk about it and he felt ashamed almost looked like he was going to cry. Wade had to console his Big Baby on the way to the locker room

I had nothing against Lebron until the moment he decided to boast about how many rings he was going to get. He hadn't even played a game with the team yet. But when we look at Durant he won't even make excuses for clearly having Lebron favored over him. He even snaps at a reporter for asking him if he got fouled at the end of game 2.

However, the way i feel about Lebron is besides the point. I still think he has been playing phenomenal these playoffs/finals. I just feel hes been getting a little bit too much help from the calls.