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craigerlee
06-17-2012, 11:53 PM
The Rockies want to trade right-hander Jeremy Guthrie. The Blue Jays want to boost their injury-depleted rotation.
Such are the makings of a possible trade.
While no deal appears imminent, the teams have discussed an exchange that would send Guthrie to the Jays, according to major-league sources.

Ken Rosenthal (http://mlbbuzz.yardbarker.com/blog/mlbbuzz/blue_jays_rockies_discussing_guthrie/11033636?new_post=true)

I really hope this isn't true. He's been really awful this year. He gives you innings I guess, but not very good ones.

Toxeryll
06-18-2012, 12:11 AM
dont do it AA!!

Sanyo
06-18-2012, 12:13 AM
Guthrie's numbers seem skewed since he has been just plain horrible at Coors Field -- looking at what he's done at other ballparks he's pitched pretty well (with the exception of Chase Field).

If you can get him for cheap (think maybe Thames or Jenkins) then fine -- if they want a top tier prospect or someone like Yunel or something -- then HELL NO!

Sanyo
06-18-2012, 12:14 AM
^ Or I would want a good Colorado prospect with Guthrie...or give the Jays a ton of ifa money...

dballss
06-18-2012, 12:17 AM
no save everything up for legit 1-2 rotation guy, do not want 3-5 arms

Sanyo
06-18-2012, 12:18 AM
or if its leaked, its highly unlikely it happens...

craigerlee
06-18-2012, 12:20 AM
Guthrie's numbers seem skewed since he has been just plain horrible at Coors Field -- looking at what he's done at other ballparks he's pitched pretty well (with the exception of Chase Field).

If you can get him for cheap (think maybe Thames or Jenkins) then fine -- if they want a top tier prospect or someone like Yunel or something -- then HELL NO!

All the other parks in the NL West are pretty pitcher friendly and none of those offenses in the NL West are particularly good either. His ERA is only 4.50 outside of Coors, don't think that will translate all that well in the AL East. I just don't see how this guy is gonna be any better than Brett Cecil or even Aaron Laffey for that matter.

Toxeryll
06-18-2012, 12:22 AM
Jeremy Guthrie is a bum

source: http://baseballplayersalaries.com/players/114_Jeremy_Guthrie

BlueJayFanDan
06-18-2012, 12:31 AM
I see we are aiming high.... *sarcasm*

Sanyo
06-18-2012, 12:35 AM
Not sure what you can get on the market. Heard Joe Saunders is also available in Arizona since they are ready to promote Trevor Bauer in the 2nd half...would take Saunders over Guthrie...

Krylian
06-18-2012, 12:35 AM
Eff Guthrie.

Jays Claw
06-18-2012, 12:48 AM
Guthrie would get destroyed at the Rogers Centre no doubt. The amount of XBH and HRs he gives up is ridiculous. Stay away AA!

idrinkpepsi
06-18-2012, 12:48 AM
He's the best we can do right now, no one is going to want to deal a better starter earlier then the last week of June.

FLeays
06-18-2012, 06:02 AM
If it hits the rumor mill it's probably not true

mtf
06-18-2012, 06:03 AM
If it hits the rumor mill it's probably not true

How do you know? Most of the rumors are that the Blue Jays engage another team in discussions regarding a trade. The rumors are not that a trade is imminent.

Halladay
06-18-2012, 07:13 AM
How do you know? Most of the rumors are that the Blue Jays engage another team in discussions regarding a trade. The rumors are not that a trade is imminent.

I can't think of a single time where a trade was rumored and actually happened. Everything AA does is ninja-like.

Twitchy
06-18-2012, 07:14 AM
It's better than turning to Villanueva or Chavez every 5th day. Depends what they give up.

Valleyfella
06-18-2012, 07:22 AM
He's the best we can do right now, no one is going to want to deal a better starter earlier then the last week of June.

If he's the best available, there's no reason to make any deal. Particularly before seeing what Chavez, CV or Carreno can do. Right now, I'd prefer any of those 3 over Guthrie.

JaysFan87
06-18-2012, 07:30 AM
I dont see why people would be very upset. Considering the market and the extremely depleted rotation i see no harm in getting a guy in that can eat some innings untill Morrow at the least is back. At the end it looks like the Rockies just want to unload the salary so it shouldn't take too much to get him.

Korac
06-18-2012, 07:50 AM
Apparently, according to the site that cannot be named, it would be for a mid level prospect such as McDade as we would absorb the majority of his salary...

mtf
06-18-2012, 07:56 AM
I can't think of a single time where a trade was rumored and actually happened. Everything AA does is ninja-like.

There's a myth on these boards that I was addressing. People, such as yourself and the poster I was originally quoting, say that any rumor of the Blue Jays having discussions is plainly false. How do you know? Just because most of these potential discussions don't end up resulting in a trade, doesn't mean that the rumor about a discussion taking place is false.

Ken Rosenthal, Buster Olney, Jon Paul Morosi and other high profile national reporters do have sources inside most (if not all) organizations in baseball. If they report what a credible source has told them regarding a discussion, I have no legitimate reason to dismiss it simply because some fans like to claim Anthopoulos is a "ninja".

pebloemer
06-18-2012, 08:17 AM
Not sure I'd want any pitchers from Colorado's starting rotation : /.

I can't see AA giving up too much for him.

StayOnBoard
06-18-2012, 08:25 AM
I dont see why people would be very upset. Considering the market and the extremely depleted rotation i see no harm in getting a guy in that can eat some innings untill Morrow at the least is back. At the end it looks like the Rockies just want to unload the salary so it shouldn't take too much to get him.

You forget what forum you're posting in?

Halladay
06-18-2012, 09:41 AM
There's a myth on these boards that I was addressing. People, such as yourself and the poster I was originally quoting, say that any rumor of the Blue Jays having discussions is plainly false. How do you know? Just because most of these potential discussions don't end up resulting in a trade, doesn't mean that the rumor about a discussion taking place is false.

Ken Rosenthal, Buster Olney, Jon Paul Morosi and other high profile national reporters do have sources inside most (if not all) organizations in baseball. If they report what a credible source has told them regarding a discussion, I have no legitimate reason to dismiss it simply because some fans like to claim Anthopoulos is a "ninja".

It's not really a myth then if it's never happened. For the hundreds of reports we've seen I have yet to seen any single one of them actually go through. Find me one, one single rumor that came to be. Reporters also report BS you know, it's kind of their jobs to gain attention. One reports something based on speculation then someone else picks it up, acts as if it's legit and runs with it. Of course AA is looking at trades, he's ALWAYS looking to trade just like every single GM in baseball.

AA09-?
06-18-2012, 09:51 AM
I just threw up in my mouth.....a lot.

masTOR_shake1
06-18-2012, 10:02 AM
no, lets be sellers

mike_noodles
06-18-2012, 10:09 AM
Guthrie's numbers seem skewed since he has been just plain horrible at Coors Field -- looking at what he's done at other ballparks he's pitched pretty well (with the exception of Chase Field).

If you can get him for cheap (think maybe Thames or Jenkins) then fine -- if they want a top tier prospect or someone like Yunel or something -- then HELL NO!

Think about it logically for a second. With Tulo at short, would they really want Escobar back?

Anyways, Guthrie isn't that bad, he pitched decent in the AL before. He would just be a stop gap and I'm almost certain it would likely be for a PTBNL and a little bit of cash.

Bob_at_york
06-18-2012, 10:21 AM
never liked him as a pitcher but if we are giving up next to nothing for him, then he could settle into the #5 spot in the rotation ahead of Laffey and such.

wagnall
06-18-2012, 12:04 PM
If they include Carlos its a deal, that would say we are not giving up in a big way :)

Eagles4Lyfe
06-18-2012, 01:05 PM
This is the same guy who couldn't hold up in the Al East with the Orioles whats going to change??

The good part is he's an expiring so meh.
I heard Mcdade might be going back

Bigred91
06-18-2012, 02:06 PM
This is the same guy who couldn't hold up in the Al East with the Orioles whats going to change??

The good part is he's an expiring so meh.
I heard Mcdade might be going back

I have seen McDade's name as well. I am no fan of Guthrie's to be sure, but if he is only going to cost McDade then I see no harm in this.

rkelly7
06-18-2012, 02:38 PM
no, lets be sellers

I agree, you guys should sell everything that is not a part of the future.

You guys should look to trade:

E5 for sure
Yunel Escobar, Hechavarria will be ready soon
Henderson Alvarez, I don't think he will ever be really awesome and he is doing well, you could probably get a decent haul for him


Might even want to lsiten to offers for Jose Ole Bautista.. You could get the moon for him, I think he is already 33 or something? Didn't look it up, but that means a decline isn't too far away and you could get pretty much whatever you wanted with his club friendly contract. I know Jays fans love him and he is a beast, but he will probably be on the decline by the time the Jays are realistically ready to compete.

rkelly7
06-18-2012, 02:38 PM
And your whole bullpen if you can get some spects for them.

ktownguy31
06-18-2012, 02:49 PM
thanks for trolling

rkelly7
06-18-2012, 03:06 PM
Not trying to troll, just looking at how you can have a very strong team in the future.

LuckyLuke2
06-18-2012, 03:14 PM
Nope no thanks. Guthrie is not a good pitcher simple as that. He was bad in the AL and is worst in the NL. His ERA is over 7 and his career stats are worst.

Moving on to another option please.

rkelly7
06-18-2012, 03:19 PM
Nope no thanks. Guthrie is not a good pitcher simple as that. He was bad in the AL and is worst in the NL. His ERA is over 7 and his career stats are worst.

Moving on to another option please.

Yeah, I agree, I dont think Guthrie is something you are looking for unless you can get him for dirt cheap.

wagnall
06-18-2012, 03:41 PM
I agree, you guys should sell everything that is not a part of the future.

You guys should look to trade:

E5 for sure
Yunel Escobar, Hechavarria will be ready soon
Henderson Alvarez, I don't think he will ever be really awesome and he is doing well, you could probably get a decent haul for him


Might even want to lsiten to offers for Jose Ole Bautista.. You could get the moon for him, I think he is already 33 or something? Didn't look it up, but that means a decline isn't too far away and you could get pretty much whatever you wanted with his club friendly contract. I know Jays fans love him and he is a beast, but he will probably be on the decline by the time the Jays are realistically ready to compete.


Joey is 31. This is not a 30 and under league, :speechless: And who you referring to "you guys", I guess that means you are not part of us guys. :clap:

Dol-Fan
06-18-2012, 03:54 PM
I don't even think I'd want to trade McDade for Guthrie. He's not much of a prospect but a Guthrie trade, to me, should be no more than a salary dump.

craigerlee
06-18-2012, 04:04 PM
I don't even think I'd want to trade McDade for Guthrie. He's not much of a prospect but a Guthrie trade, to me, should be no more than a salary dump.

I agree. I really don't know why we'd want Guthrie, I'd much rather just let Brett Cecil or Jesse Chavez eat those innings as they honestly can't be that much worst than Guthrie. Guthrie's making 8M this year too, so even if its just a salary dump I don't know why we'd wanna pay 4M or so for a guy that's having problems performing in the NL West.

Korac
06-18-2012, 04:08 PM
Looks like they grabbed Shawn Hill to help...

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2012/06/18/blue_jays_add_shawn_hill/

Dol-Fan
06-18-2012, 04:25 PM
I agree. I really don't know why we'd want Guthrie, I'd much rather just let Brett Cecil or Jesse Chavez eat those innings as they honestly can't be that much worst than Guthrie. Guthrie's making 8M this year too, so even if its just a salary dump I don't know why we'd wanna pay 4M or so for a guy that's having problems performing in the NL West.

I agree in principle but it's not my money and I don't think he'd be worse than Cecil or Chavez. I don't really care if Rogers shells out money for a lateral move. People will mention the splits for Guthrie, but he's still got a 4.70 ERA on the road right now, 18 Ks and 15 BBs. He's probably been a bit worse than Drabek this year. Just don't give up any assets.

Dol-Fan
06-18-2012, 04:26 PM
Looks like they grabbed Shawn Hill to help...

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2012/06/18/blue_jays_add_shawn_hill/

Maple boners, erect!

wagnall
06-18-2012, 04:37 PM
I agree. I really don't know why we'd want Guthrie, I'd much rather just let Brett Cecil or Jesse Chavez eat those innings as they honestly can't be that much worst than Guthrie. Guthrie's making 8M this year too, so even if its just a salary dump I don't know why we'd wanna pay 4M or so for a guy that's having problems performing in the NL West.

Totally agree. Now we have Hill to add to the mix. Surely to god a couple of these guys can give us 5 innings a game. :)

craigerlee
06-18-2012, 04:43 PM
I agree in principle but it's not my money and I don't think he'd be worse than Cecil or Chavez. I don't really care if Rogers shells out money for a lateral move. People will mention the splits for Guthrie, but he's still got a 4.70 ERA on the road right now, 18 Ks and 15 BBs. He's probably been a bit worse than Drabek this year. Just don't give up any assets.

Is that not pretty bad though considering he plays in the NL West? He's giving up a lot bombs wherever he goes which I can't imagine gets any better in the AL East at Rogers Centre.

Dol-Fan
06-18-2012, 04:49 PM
Is that not pretty bad though considering he plays in the NL West? He's giving up a lot bombs wherever he goes which I can't imagine gets any better in the AL East at Rogers Centre.

Yeah, that's kind of my point. He sucks.

Eagles4Lyfe
06-18-2012, 05:34 PM
If they take Lind and his putrid contract I don't mind giving them a C+ prospect we lose 3M this year but save 5M for the next couple

craigerlee
06-18-2012, 06:02 PM
Yeah, that's kind of my point. He sucks.

My bad, I thought that you were implying that a 4.70 ERA was alright.

BJBirdy
06-18-2012, 06:04 PM
If the Jays are going to trade Mike McDade, they better get someone better than Jeremy Guthrie in return.

FLeays
06-18-2012, 07:00 PM
Looks like they grabbed Shawn Hill to help...

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2012/06/18/blue_jays_add_shawn_hill/

Great another Richmond

FlakeyFool
06-18-2012, 07:08 PM
He sucks more than laffey

passengershawn
06-18-2012, 07:49 PM
Makes ZERO sense to grab a guy like Guthrie...even if it's for chump change. The guy is a #4/5 SP AT BEST in the NL West...what on earth would the AL East do to his #'s?

This trade rumor makes no sense to the Jays, who are on track to probably finish 5th in the division...maybe 4th if Boston continues to slide and the Jays can patch-work their rotation. But unless Romero goes Roger Clemens and EVERYTHING falls into place at the same time, this is a 4th place team this year.

joshhorvath
06-19-2012, 01:19 AM
Great another Richmond

whatever happened to Richmond?0

Dol-Fan
06-19-2012, 01:20 AM
whatever happened to Richmond?0

pitching in Las Vegas, sucking to holy hell like all starters do down there

2009mvp
06-19-2012, 08:54 AM
I love that Guthrie is now officially the guy who's thrown 60 poor innings in Colorado this year instead of the guy who threw roughly 1000 not-awful innings in the AL East over the past few years. The guy ain't bad. The contract is awful and I wouldn't give up much, but he's easily an upgrade at this point over the scrubs in competition for the 4/5 spots right now.

Sanyo
06-19-2012, 10:01 AM
At this point if Colorado wants to get rid of him, you can expect that they'll dump him for anything at this point. Maybe even try to just give up someone like Scott Richmond lol.

Krylian
06-19-2012, 10:07 AM
Thread should read 'Blue Jays, Rockies disgusted by Guthrie'.

mike_noodles
06-19-2012, 03:20 PM
I love that Guthrie is now officially the guy who's thrown 60 poor innings in Colorado this year instead of the guy who threw roughly 1000 not-awful innings in the AL East over the past few years. The guy ain't bad. The contract is awful and I wouldn't give up much, but he's easily an upgrade at this point over the scrubs in competition for the 4/5 spots right now.

Somebody with some sense here, thanks. Twice he had an ERA under 4 in Baltimore, and he's thrown 200+ several times in his career. He's not nearly as terrible as people are making him out to be, he is after all pitching in Denver right now, what do people expect? He would literally be here for one year only, don't jump off of a cliff anyone.

Krylian
06-19-2012, 03:54 PM
So we're back to the JP Ricciardi school of Dumpster Diving?

Just say No to Guthrie.

2009mvp
06-19-2012, 06:05 PM
^^Yes, acquiring a short term veteran replacement is solely a JP tactic. Let's pretend that the golden child GM hasn't started the likes of Dana Eveland, JoJo Reyes, Corey Paterson, Dwayne Wise et al.

Krylian
06-19-2012, 09:30 PM
^^Yes, acquiring a short term veteran replacement is solely a JP tactic. Let's pretend that the golden child GM hasn't started the likes of Dana Eveland, JoJo Reyes, Corey Paterson, Dwayne Wise et al.

Exactly. Off with JP's head.

mtf
06-19-2012, 11:21 PM
So we're back to the JP Ricciardi school of Dumpster Diving?

Just say No to Guthrie.

I'm not advocating that the Jays should make this move, but let's not overreact as if the asking price for Guthrie would be D'Arnaud, Syndergaard and Norris. The biggest name I've heard linked to Guthrie is Mike McDade, who is not exactly a superstar in the making.

craigerlee
06-20-2012, 12:02 AM
Initially I was pretty opposed to this, but I honestly don't think Chavez can turn a lineup over after watching him tonight and really don't have much faith in Perez as a starter either. May not be a bad idea to take a flyer on this guy and hope he comes back to his previous form which could be an alright 5th starter.

bomber0104
06-20-2012, 12:30 AM
haven't posted in this thread.. but hell yeah you go out and get Guthrie..

he can be had for next to nothing and has performed in the East.. what is up with people looking at 3 months in Colorado and forgetting many years of solid performance in the AL.. since when is a high 3, low 4 ERA horrible in the AL East..

Right now, I would take him over everyone in the rotation not named Romero.. I mean Alvarez is just awful and should be in the minors, the rest are just scrubs who haven't done a fourth of what Guthrie has done over his career

Sanyo
06-20-2012, 12:33 AM
I think after today's game they may go get Guthrie -- atleast he can eat innings which is what they badly need right now.

Toxeryll
06-20-2012, 12:44 AM
I think after today's game they may go get Guthrie -- atleast he can eat innings which is what they badly need right now.

yup, im not against this anymore especially after tonights game.

Krylian
06-20-2012, 09:12 AM
If you're gonna get someone, then go get "SOMEONE". There are always arms out there that teams are willing to move for the right price.

Even if it is only McDade for Guthrie, you're basically giving a way a mid-range prospect for someone that is irrelevant in this team building towards contention. What's Guthrie gonna give you...6 innings a start, giving up 4-5 runs. That's not quality pitching...and I want no part of it.

If you want Garza, then go out and pay the price...if you want Greinke, then go out do what it takes (assuming he's willing to sign here). I just hate bandaids...always have.

Get something meaningful.

mtf
06-20-2012, 09:23 AM
If you're gonna get someone, then go get "SOMEONE". There are always arms out there that teams are willing to move for the right price.

Even if it is only McDade for Guthrie, you're basically giving a way a mid-range prospect for someone that is irrelevant in this team building towards contention. What's Guthrie gonna give you...6 innings a start, giving up 4-5 runs. That's not quality pitching...and I want no part of it.

If you want Garza, then go out and pay the price...if you want Greinke, then go out do what it takes (assuming he's willing to sign here). I just hate bandaids...always have.

Get something meaningful.

Normally, I would agree with this sentiment if the intention was to make the playoffs this year and/or add a piece for the future. However, the current situation should be taken into account.

Right now, adding someone who will give up 4-5 runs over 6 innings for a prospect like McDade isn't really that ridiculous. The current staff cant get through 6 innings at all, and they allow just as much or more runs in a shorter time span.

On a side-note, Garza doesn't seem that amazing. He's just the biggest name out there when there's no real big names being discussed. In a sport that seems to send half of those players wearing major league uniforms to the all-star game each year, he's never been named an all-star. His ERA is constantly high, consider the asking price is ridiculous for him.

Cole Hamels and Zach Greinke are the only players being discussed right now that are legitimately top tier pitchers, and Hamels would be a rental (no point since the Jays aren't in the playoff picture) and Greinke doesn't seem to want to waive his no-trade to go to Toronto.

AA09-?
06-20-2012, 09:26 AM
Normally, I would agree with this sentiment if the intention was to make the playoffs this year and/or add a piece for the future. However, the current situation should be taken into account.

Right now, adding someone who will give up 4-5 runs over 6 innings for a prospect like McDade isn't really that ridiculous. The current staff cant get through 6 innings at all, and they allow just as much or more runs in a shorter time span.

On a side-note, Garza doesn't seem that amazing. He's just the biggest name out there when there's no real big names being discussed. In a sport that seems to send half of those players wearing major league uniforms to the all-star game each year, he's never been named an all-star. His ERA is constantly high, consider the asking price is ridiculous for him.

Cole Hamels and Zach Greinke are the only players being discussed right now that are legitimately top tier pitchers, and Hamels would be a rental (no point since the Jays aren't in the playoff picture) and Greinke doesn't seem to want to waive his no-trade to go to Toronto.

FYI

Greinke will be a FA at seasons end as well.

PeterH
06-20-2012, 09:48 AM
Guthrie is now moved to the bullpen, further lowering his value (if any). We need those 6 innings a game at this point and i agree with some people trading McDade for him wouldn't be the worst, lets face it he's not the long-term answer at first he's another AAAA talent, like cooper.

Krylian
06-20-2012, 09:53 AM
I just think we can do better than Guthrie.

town123
06-20-2012, 09:55 AM
No to Guthrie.

rkelly7
06-20-2012, 10:06 AM
I love that Guthrie is now officially the guy who's thrown 60 poor innings in Colorado this year instead of the guy who threw roughly 1000 not-awful innings in the AL East over the past few years. The guy ain't bad. The contract is awful and I wouldn't give up much, but he's easily an upgrade at this point over the scrubs in competition for the 4/5 spots right now.

How is his contract awful? He is a free agent after this year. It's not like he is making $20 mill a year. :confused: I would say it may not be the most cost effective contract, but it isn't awful. Other than that, very insightful post. I read an article saying the air in Denver is giving him issues with his 2 seamer, which is what he lives off of. e can't get the movement on it which lets hitters basically swing at 90 mph straight fastballs. A change of scenery would do him good. He is no ace, but he could come back to the AL East and be a #3.

adab
06-20-2012, 10:07 AM
The rumour is they're offering a AA 1B guy who's a low lever prospect. Also, the rumour is the Jays will assume the ballance of his contract (about $5 million).
Trading anyone from their 40 man roster for this guy is an utter waste. Yes his ERA is about 4.5 better on the road versus at home, but he's been a zero pitcher all his career.
Certainly, a severely damaged Kyle Drabek is better than a healthy Guthrie. Let some one else offer lunch money for this guy.

Krylian
06-20-2012, 10:13 AM
The rumour is they're offering a AA 1B guy who's a low lever prospect. Also, the rumour is the Jays will assume the ballance of his contract (about $5 million).
Trading anyone from their 40 man roster for this guy is an utter waste. Yes his ERA is about 4.5 better on the road versus at home, but he's been a zero pitcher all his career.
Certainly, a severely damaged Kyle Drabek is better than a healthy Guthrie. Let some one else offer lunch money for this guy.

If it has to be Guthrie then I'd give them Kevin Patterson or Balbino Fuenmayor. I consider those guys non-prospects. McDade still has some upside that I'm not ready to give up on yet....at least not for a guy like Guth.

PeterH
06-20-2012, 10:15 AM
How is his contract awful? He is a free agent after this year. It's not like he is making $20 mill a year. :confused: I would say it may not be the most cost effective contract, but it isn't awful. Other than that, very insightful post. I read an article saying the air in Denver is giving him issues with his 2 seamer, which is what he lives off of. e can't get the movement on it which lets hitters basically swing at 90 mph straight fastballs. A change of scenery would do him good. He is no ace, but he could come back to the AL East and be a #3.

Agreed read the same thing many different places. The low level AA prospect is probably all it takes and the 5 mill contract is not a big deal for a team that would kill for 6 innings a game. Change of scenery could be alright, not good, but alright.

rkelly7
06-20-2012, 10:20 AM
And you could sign him to a 1 year extension if he does well. I mean, besides Romero and Morrow, there isn;t too much going on in that rotation. Guthrie would easily be your #3, Alvarez needs more time in the minors and Drabeks gone for 12-18 months. I wouldn;t classify it as a band aid. I think he would succeed and he isnt going to give up 4-5 runs every start.. I think a 4 ERA and a handful of wins is attainable.

Unless AA has specific intentions on going balls to the wall for Garza, Greinke, Hamels or trading for an ace in the offseason, I don't see the point of bickering over giving up McCade when he probably will not have a successful career. Seems liek a AAAA player to me, but we've seen the nelson Cruz's and Jose Bautistas of the world..

AA09-?
06-20-2012, 10:23 AM
And you could sign him to a 1 year extension if he does well. I mean, besides Romero and Morrow, there isn;t too much going on in that rotation. Guthrie would easily be your #3, Alvarez needs more time in the minors and Drabeks gone for 12-18 months. I wouldn;t classify it as a band aid. I think he would succeed and he isnt going to give up 4-5 runs every start.. I think a 4 ERA and a handful of wins is attainable.

Unless AA has specific intentions on going balls to the wall for Garza, Greinke, Hamels or trading for an ace in the offseason, I don't see the point of bickering over giving up McCade when he probably will not have a successful career. Seems liek a AAAA player to me, but we've seen the nelson Cruz's and Jose Bautistas of the world..

So he's going to pitch a complete game every time out?

2009mvp
06-20-2012, 10:23 AM
How is his contract awful? He is a free agent after this year. It's not like he is making $20 mill a year. :confused: I would say it may not be the most cost effective contract, but it isn't awful. Other than that, very insightful post. I read an article saying the air in Denver is giving him issues with his 2 seamer, which is what he lives off of. e can't get the movement on it which lets hitters basically swing at 90 mph straight fastballs. A change of scenery would do him good. He is no ace, but he could come back to the AL East and be a #3.

I'm sorry how is 8.2M for a guy who's been demoted to the pen not awful? Yes it's one year, yes a team acquiring him wouldn't be on the hook for all of that, but none of those change that he's been/being paid an awful lot more than he's worth.

PeterH
06-20-2012, 10:24 AM
And you could sign him to a 1 year extension if he does well. I mean, besides Romero and Morrow, there isn;t too much going on in that rotation. Guthrie would easily be your #3, Alvarez needs more time in the minors and Drabeks gone for 12-18 months. I wouldn;t classify it as a band aid. I think he would succeed and he isnt going to give up 4-5 runs every start.. I think a 4 ERA and a handful of wins is attainable.

Unless AA has specific intentions on going balls to the wall for Garza, Greinke, Hamels or trading for an ace in the offseason, I don't see the point of bickering over giving up McCade when he probably will not have a successful career. Seems liek a AAAA player to me, but we've seen the nelson Cruz's and Jose Bautistas of the world..

Highly unlikely to do right now but maybe trading for an ace in the offseason, or signing marcum again would be nice. There is no way they would give up what they would have to to obtain hamels or greinke, and hopefully don't do it for garza. I don't see a point of giving away top prospects for the first two guys mentioned when making the playoffs is going to be really tough even with them, and then they walk at the end of the year.

Sanyo
06-20-2012, 10:35 AM
Jays could go after Marcum again. That is realistic for sure. But if the Jays really want to move up to the big boys club, they will need to try and persuade one of the big free agents to come here. If the Jays do well this year, even if they dont make the playoffs, its a sign this team is ready for an upswing..

Krylian
06-20-2012, 10:41 AM
Jays could go after Marcum again. That is realistic for sure. But if the Jays really want to move up to the big boys club, they will need to try and persuade one of the big free agents to come here. If the Jays do well this year, even if they dont make the playoffs, its a sign this team is ready for an upswing..

This will certainly be an interesting off-season.

I think the Jays honestly thought that between Romero, Morrow, Alvarez, Drabek, Hutchison, McGowan, Carreno, McGuire, Jenkins...they'd probably have enough arms to put together a rotation that they're comfortable with.

But with Drabek done for 12+ months, Hutch up in the air and possibly following Drabek's footsteps...and then McGuire and Jenkins crapping the bed, McGowan's future up in the air...there are a lot more question marks than we all had hoped.

Couple that with the team saying they'll being in big contracts when they think it'll put the over the top, and I really wonder who's going to be brought in to augment the rotation. The best guess I suppose is a trade for a reasonably young arm with a friendly financial situation.

PeterH
06-20-2012, 10:41 AM
Jays could go after Marcum again. That is realistic for sure. But if the Jays really want to move up to the big boys club, they will need to try and persuade one of the big free agents to come here. If the Jays do well this year, even if they dont make the playoffs, its a sign this team is ready for an upswing..

Agreed, but club policy is nothing over 3 years for pitchers if I'm not mistaken? or is it 5? i think 3. Anyways point being hamels wants big $ long term, and I'm not 100% on grienke but my bet is he walks and doesn't look back if for some reason we get him. I would love to have marcum back at #3 starter next year

rkelly7
06-20-2012, 10:43 AM
So he's going to pitch a complete game every time out?

I said that because someone said he would give up 4-5 runs every start. No he won't go out and throw 9 innings every start. But he is definitely an upgrade. I know he has done terrible in COL, but I think the Colorado air has much to do with it. He has eben awful for 2.5 months this year, but he has a track record of 6 seasons in which he was solid. He was never an ace, but he was solid.

Krylian
06-20-2012, 10:43 AM
Agreed, but club policy is nothing over 3 years for pitchers if I'm not mistaken? or is it 5? i think 3. Anyways point being hamels wants big $ long term, and I'm not 100% on grienke but my bet is he walks and doesn't look back if for some reason we get him. I would love to have marcum back at #3 starter next year

Back in the glory days Gillick's policy was no more than 3 years for pitchers...I don't think that's the case today. I think it's 5 years across the board. Pretty sure Romero's extension was more than 3 years...could've been 5.

PeterH
06-20-2012, 10:45 AM
Back in the glory days Gillick's policy was no more than 3 years for pitchers...I don't think that's the case today. I think it's 5 years across the board. Pretty sure Romero's extension was more than 3 years...could've been 5.

yep it was 5, but i read that they made an exception for ricky. but yea i could be wrong with the 3 thing.

AA09-?
06-20-2012, 10:45 AM
Back in the glory days Gillick's policy was no more than 3 years for pitchers...I don't think that's the case today. I think it's 5 years across the board. Pretty sure Romero's extension was more than 3 years...could've been 5.

Yes 5 guaranteed plus a club option for 2016.

AA09-?
06-20-2012, 10:47 AM
yep it was 5, but i read that they made an exception for ricky. but yea i could be wrong with the 3 thing.

I highly doubt they wouldn't be willing to go 5 years for other elite pitchers.

rkelly7
06-20-2012, 10:49 AM
I'm sorry how is 8.2M for a guy who's been demoted to the pen not awful? Yes it's one year, yes a team acquiring him wouldn't be on the hook for all of that, but none of those change that he's been/being paid an awful lot more than he's worth.

It's probably down to 5 ish mill by now ;) I'm sure Colorado would eat some of that. All I'm saying is he isn't a bad #4 guy to have. He will be a free agent, but if he succeeds, you guys could give him a 1-2 year extension. He is AL East battle tested and still only 32 years old. And his value is at an all time low.

Whats the worst case? He somehow cannot succeed anywhere besides Baltimore and you give up McCade for nothing. It's not like McCade is a top prospect. Are you really losing anything besides AAA depth? It's a classic buy low scenario.

He won't help you make the playoffs, that's a pipe dream. But a guy who has shown he can be mildly succussful in the AL East for year upon year is not something you should turn your back on. Especially if he can help you for the next few years for cheap if he gets back on track. This isn't about now, its about shoring up the # of question marks in your rotation for next year and beyond. And there is a lot of them behind Morrow and Romero.

PeterH
06-20-2012, 10:54 AM
It's probably down to 5 ish mill by now ;) I'm sure Colorado would eat some of that. All I'm saying is he isn't a bad #4 guy to have. He will be a free agent, but if he succeeds, you guys could give him a 1-2 year extension. He is AL East battle tested and still only 32 years old. And his value is at an all time low.

Whats the worst case? He somehow cannot succeed anywhere besides Baltimore and you give up McCade for nothing. It's not like McCade is a top prospect. Are you really losing anything besides AAA depth? It's a classic buy low scenario.

He won't help you make the playoffs, that's a pipe dream. But a guy who has shown he can be mildly succussful in the AL East for year upon year is not something you should turn your back on. Especially if he can help you for the next few years for cheap if he gets back on track. This isn't about now, its about shoring up the # of question marks in your rotation for next year and beyond. And there is a lot of them behind Morrow and Romero.

Yea it is about 5 mill, 5.2 if I'm not mistaken? But heck, why not eat some or most of the contract? That would probably let us trade for even less of a "quality" prospect.

rkelly7
06-20-2012, 11:07 AM
Yea it is about 5 mill, 5.2 if I'm not mistaken? But heck, why not eat some or most of the contract? That would probably let us trade for even less of a "quality" prospect.

You could probably take on all of it and give them nothing more than a High A reliever :shrug: Colorados gotta pay for Tulo and Cargo, so I'm sure they could use the freed up cash.

PeterH
06-20-2012, 11:08 AM
You could probably take on all of it and give them nothing more than a High A reliever :shrug: Colorados gotta pay for Tulo and Cargo, so I'm sure they could use the freed up cash.

We should be paying for Tulo:bang:

rkelly7
06-20-2012, 11:25 AM
We should be paying for Tulo:bang:

Don't cry over spilt milk man. I understand. My team has made soooo many bad draft picks over the years it ridonk.

2009mvp
06-20-2012, 11:31 AM
It's probably down to 5 ish mill by now ;) I'm sure Colorado would eat some of that. All I'm saying is he isn't a bad #4 guy to have. He will be a free agent, but if he succeeds, you guys could give him a 1-2 year extension. He is AL East battle tested and still only 32 years old. And his value is at an all time low.

Whats the worst case? He somehow cannot succeed anywhere besides Baltimore and you give up McCade for nothing. It's not like McCade is a top prospect. Are you really losing anything besides AAA depth? It's a classic buy low scenario.

He won't help you make the playoffs, that's a pipe dream. But a guy who has shown he can be mildly succussful in the AL East for year upon year is not something you should turn your back on. Especially if he can help you for the next few years for cheap if he gets back on track. This isn't about now, its about shoring up the # of question marks in your rotation for next year and beyond. And there is a lot of them behind Morrow and Romero.

Cool, now what part of that didn't I say in the original post you quoted? I don't disagree with any of that, doesn't mean it still isn't an awful contract.

rkelly7
06-20-2012, 11:43 AM
Cool, now what part of that didn't I say in the original post you quoted? I don't disagree with any of that, doesn't mean it still isn't an awful contract.


I guess when I think awful contract, I think multiple years at 15 mill plus. i.e. Vernon Wells, Alfonso Soriano, ARod etc etc.

If Guthrie was under contract for 3 more years at 10 mill +, then I'd definitely consider it an awful contract. We just must have different perceptions of awful, that's all.

bomber0104
06-20-2012, 12:45 PM
The rumour is they're offering a AA 1B guy who's a low lever prospect. Also, the rumour is the Jays will assume the ballance of his contract (about $5 million).
Trading anyone from their 40 man roster for this guy is an utter waste. Yes his ERA is about 4.5 better on the road versus at home, but he's been a zero pitcher all his career.
Certainly, a severely damaged Kyle Drabek is better than a healthy Guthrie. Let some one else offer lunch money for this guy.

where the **** are you getting this from?

lets see his career ERA

2007 - 3.70
2008 - 3.63
2009 - 5.04
2010 - 3.83
2011 - 4.33

Since when is below 4 ERA in 3 of his 5 years awful in the AL East.. Hell I'd take the 4.33 ERA any day now

people just dont seem to realize how awful our rotation is right now and how ****ed our bullpen is a gonna be in a weeks time if they aren't already

AA09-?
06-20-2012, 12:47 PM
where the **** are you getting this from?

lets see his career ERA

2007 - 3.70
2008 - 3.63
2009 - 5.04
2010 - 3.83
2011 - 4.33

Since when is below 4 ERA in 3 of his 5 years awful in the AL East.. Hell I'd take the 4.33 ERA any day now

people just dont seem to realize how awful our rotation is right now and how ****ed our bullpen is a gonna be in a weeks time if they aren't already

this is now my biggest concern....we can't keep having the pen come in for 6 plus innings.

bomber0104
06-20-2012, 12:50 PM
this is now my biggest concern....we can't keep having the pen come in for 6 plus innings.

yeah.. just wait until the offense stops coring 8 runs a game and people will start flipping.. this offense will go back to ******** the bed the moment they start facing good AL East pitching

rkelly7
06-20-2012, 01:07 PM
Trade for Guthrie and sign Livan Hernandez. That will save your bellpen a ton of innings by years end. If the bullpen doesn't perform well between now and the trade deadline, you will not be able to sell off any relievers because they will be tired and worn out and their lackluster stats will reflect it.

Toxeryll
06-20-2012, 01:09 PM
Livan Hernandez = Cordero 2.0 :puke:

bomber0104
06-20-2012, 01:11 PM
Livan Hernandez = Cordero 2.0 :puke:

yeah stay away from livan... i'd rather have Cecil

PeterH
06-20-2012, 01:16 PM
Trade for Guthrie and sign Livan Hernandez. That will save your bellpen a ton of innings by years end. If the bullpen doesn't perform well between now and the trade deadline, you will not be able to sell off any relievers because they will be tired and worn out and their lackluster stats will reflect it.

Thats just a scary thought. You think Coco gave you nightmares, yikes.

rkelly7
06-20-2012, 02:19 PM
He may not be great, but he eats innings. Gotta save your bullpen somewhere.

Krylian
06-20-2012, 02:32 PM
When people start proposing we sign Livan Hernandez then I really known we're all in hell...it certainly feels like it with the weather.

rkelly7
06-20-2012, 02:55 PM
When people start proposing we sign Livan Hernandez then I really known we're all in hell...it certainly feels like it with the weather.

You guys aren't in hell man. You have a lot of good young guys to build around. Lawrie, Bautista, Romero, Morrow, d'Arnard, can't wait to see that kid come up.

You have a deep farm system, which is great, but until those guys start contributing at then ML level, it's gonna be tough to hop the speedbump of the AL east. You have a bright bright future though. You just really really need a legit ace. Too bad Halladay wasn't 4 years younger, then he would be in his late 20's now, which would make you guys much much better.

PeterH
06-20-2012, 03:01 PM
We just claimed david pauley, must say i do like it, and should put all this hernandez talk to hell where it should go

TRIUMPHATOR
06-20-2012, 03:09 PM
You guys aren't in hell man. You have a lot of good young guys to build around. Lawrie, Bautista, Romero, Morrow, d'Arnard, can't wait to see that kid come up.

You have a deep farm system, which is great, but until those guys start contributing at then ML level, it's gonna be tough to hop the speedbump of the AL east. You have a bright bright future though. You just really really need a legit ace. Too bad Halladay wasn't 4 years younger, then he would be in his late 20's now, which would make you guys much much better.

Great analysis, we just need to get over the hump when our system begins producing yearly. I would like to see AA to add through trade and free agency as well. We are on the brink of a log jam at three positions (SS/2nd, C, and LF). And the biggest problem is we dont know how Hech, TDA, and Snider can play in the bigs. How tough is it going to be to define roles when you have no history in the show( Snider aside)?

p.s. time to ask pemission to allow your stats to transfer to a new name that is not affiliated with a pedophile.

TO Rapz
06-20-2012, 04:23 PM
Jeremy Guthrie..

He's an interesting case. A career 4.79 FIP and 4.66 xFIP isn't anything to write home about, but I mean Guthrie's been consistent throughout his career. He's proven himself in the AL East with the O's and had that one bad year 09 sure. Right now, I think a big reason he's struggling in Coor's is the park factor:

Coor's Field is #1 right now in park factors. Park Factor compares the rate of stats at home vs. the rate of stats on the road. A rate higher than 1.000 favors the hitter. Below 1.000 favors the pitcher. Colorado is #1 in the league at 1.518, and Camden Yards is 6th at 1.202. So if you factor in other things like A) Getting used to a new league after playing with the O's for half a decade (2 years with the Indians before), B) Playing in the most hitter friendly park in the game, C) Only being evaluated over about 2/5ths of a season...

One can conclude he should be fine back here in the AL East. Along with the fact that he's going from a hitters park to a neutral park. Rogers Centre is 16th in the MLB with a spot on 1.0 park run factor. Thus, it's a neutral park, and Guthrie should be fine as a #4, or #3 guy, a mid rotation guy that can log innings. If AA can swing him cheap (value wise, I know about his contract), I'd be okay with it.

Kak
06-20-2012, 05:07 PM
I'm not advocating that the Jays should make this move, but let's not overreact as if the asking price for Guthrie would be D'Arnaud, Syndergaard and Norris. The biggest name I've heard linked to Guthrie is Mike McDade, who is not exactly a superstar in the making.

Just read an MLB article that gave mcdade a nickname... Mike "muffin top" mcdade, too much!

joshhorvath
06-20-2012, 07:32 PM
i dont care who is starting, just as long as its not Cecil, Carreno or Chavez! pretty much anybody that begins with a C! lets just get McGuire and someone else up here.

mtf
06-21-2012, 12:00 AM
i dont care who is starting, just as long as its not Cecil, Carreno or Chavez! pretty much anybody that begins with a C! lets just get McGuire and someone else up here.

I think Cecil is going to get a couple of starts, unless he completely blows up (which wouldn't exactly be a surprise).

Chavez and Carreno are 2 pitchers who really need to go. I'm guessing Laffey will get replace one of those 2 and I really don't see why they aren't bringing in Luis Perez or Carlos Villaneuva to fill the last spot.

Sanyo
06-21-2012, 12:19 AM
Carreno is best served as a reliever. He does well the first inning or two and then blows up. I wouldnt mind him in the pen.

Chavez not sure what the hell happened to him. Though I am impressed with his velocity, maybe could serve being in the pen as well.

Not fond of Coello or Crawford, I think Carreno and Chavez are better off in the pen...

Rotator
06-21-2012, 12:53 PM
Watched Guthrie pitch last night out of the rockies pen, he has pretty good stuff, 93-95 fastball, slow curve and and a hard slider.

If the trade for him costs nothing but having to pay money ie (no prospects of any worth to the jays) then I'd say why not make a change of scenery deal. The jays really need some innings out of their starters.

AA09-?
06-22-2012, 09:26 AM
Maybe a guy like Moises Sierra would get it done?

bomber0104
06-22-2012, 10:16 PM
i would really love to see what Guthrie will get in a trade.. like i said i have a feeling this is all abnout the Jays not wanting to take salary back which is sad

i mean we are starting Laffey, Cecil, Alvarez and neither of which should be near a major league roster

JaysFan87
06-23-2012, 09:46 AM
the more i think of it the less likely Guthrie gets moved anyways. With the Rockies going with a 4 man rotation the need more long men in teh bullpen and guthrie fits the bill. An expensive reliever yes, but they need him more right now than before.

Sanyo
06-23-2012, 12:39 PM
Why isn't anyone discussing Joe Saunders?

fmradioguy
06-23-2012, 04:32 PM
the more i think of it the less likely Guthrie gets moved anyways.

He's now getting paid over $8 million a year for long relief. They think so little of him, that they'd rather have a 4 man rotation than have him be the 5th starter. No, I have little doubt that the multitude of media reports saying the Rockies are actively shopping him are true.

Jamiecballer
06-23-2012, 10:03 PM
He's now getting paid over $8 million a year for long relief. They think so little of him, that they'd rather have a 4 man rotation than have him be the 5th starter. No, I have little doubt that the multitude of media reports saying the Rockies are actively shopping him are true.

who cares what role he plays for them. all that matters is the role he'd play with us and that's starter.

wamco
06-24-2012, 08:26 AM
and LF on his off days

Krylian
06-24-2012, 06:11 PM
who cares what role he plays for them. all that matters is the role he'd play with us and that's starter.

The role he'd play with us is POS.

PeterH
06-25-2012, 10:16 AM
and LF on his off days

lol

KaiserSose
06-25-2012, 11:01 AM
Why isn't anyone discussing Joe Saunders?

Because we have enough pitchers on the DL as it is?

PeterH
06-25-2012, 11:06 AM
Why isn't anyone discussing Joe Saunders?

Might as well go for jamie moyer too then

wamco
06-26-2012, 06:35 AM
u got your wish

PeterH
06-26-2012, 09:00 AM
jesus christ... didn't AA know i was kidding? Alright try this again, might as well trade for mike trout then.

StayOnBoard
06-26-2012, 09:33 AM
jesus christ... didn't AA know i was kidding? Alright try this again, might as well trade for mike trout then.

:laugh2:

Awesome LOL.

Can't blame him on Moyer, we need SOMEONE to throw out there every 5th day..... looks like it'll be a long summer.