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View Full Version : What would you do if you're Ben Cherrington?



Celtic AL
06-13-2012, 02:36 PM
Were 6 games out in last place. its early and theres a chance but this team is is up and down and were lacking faith. So Here is my question What would you do if you're Ben Charington? Would you try to get some pieces to help us this year or would you rather blow up this team and start a fire said?


let the discussion begins!

grandsalami
06-13-2012, 02:40 PM
sox dont "blow up" the team, we are not like SEA or Mets, we are technically competitive every year so I doubt the FO "BLOWS UP" the team, perhaps just trading some of the vets, but not trading players like dustin/clay/lester etc

Crucis
06-13-2012, 03:08 PM
sox dont "blow up" the team, we are not like SEA or Mets, we are technically competitive every year so I doubt the FO "BLOWS UP" the team, perhaps just trading some of the vets, but not trading players like dustin/clay/lester etc

I agree, GS. "Blowing up" the team isn't an option for the Red Sox. They have to be (or at least look) competitive every year, so blowing up the team and starting from scratch just isn't an option.

They can however trade away some expendable pieces, like Youk, Ross, or most anyone in the bullpen, etc. And arguably they could still do this and try to enhance their ability to make a run at the playoffs this season, depending on what players they moved, of course.

TragicallyHip
06-13-2012, 03:27 PM
This team is a July hot stretch away from being in AL East leader contention. I wouldn't blow anything up.

There's almost 33MM on the DL, it's absurd to think they won't play better when everyone is back healthy.

It's amazing that the Sox are this close considering all the injuries they have had to deal with.

Towelie
06-13-2012, 03:41 PM
I wait for our All Star team to get off the DL.

goshhhjosh
06-13-2012, 03:43 PM
This team is a July hot stretch away from being in AL East leader contention. I wouldn't blow anything up.

There's almost 33MM on the DL, it's absurd to think they won't play better when everyone is back healthy.

It's amazing that the Sox are this close considering all the injuries they have had to deal with.

There's more than 33 million on the DL...

Carl Crawford - $20,357,143
John Lackey - $15,950,000
Jacoby Ellsbury - $8,050,000
Cody Ross - $3,000,000
Bobby Jenks - $6,000,000
Andrew Bailey - $3,900,000

It seems like with the Red Sox that the majority of injuries are to high-profile, high-earning players.

As far as what to do, I think Ben Cherington should start looking forward to 2013. I'm not one of the ho-hum, this team is terrible, we're going to lose every game the rest of the year types. I just think that this team is not good enough to make a deep playoff run and compete with the other teams.

Some people that I would look at moving are:

Youkilis - because he's bald and a ginger.
Ross
Shoppach
Beckett
The bullpen

And if the Nats approached me and offered me Strasburg and Harper for Crawford and Lackey...I'd think about making the deal. :rolleyes:

RedSoxtober
06-13-2012, 04:25 PM
As far as what to do, I think Ben Cherington should start looking forward to 2013. I'm not one of the ho-hum, this team is terrible, we're going to lose every game the rest of the year types. I just think that this team is not good enough to make a deep playoff run and compete with the other teams.


This. I don't think "blow up" is the right term but I do think they make deals with an eye towards 2013 rather than 2012.

BTW, they trail by 7 in the loss column.

Bo Sox Fan
06-13-2012, 04:51 PM
There's not much Cherington can really do himself without going through Lacchino and his ego first, or atleast it seems that way.

Bobby V would never have been manager in the first place, there's the first problem... so with Lacchino in charge I doubt we'll blow it up or be 'sellers' but rather patch the holes to get us through the season with nothing to show for the future. Example - Marlon Byrd.

Vainglory07
06-13-2012, 04:55 PM
I don't know if this constitutes a "blow up", but like most suggest, I would try to move Youk, Shoppach, Ross/Sweeney, Beckett, and Morales. I would want Middlebrooks at 3B, Lavarnway as the backup C, Kalish platooning with either Ross or Sweeney, Tazawa to replace Morales, and hopefully have someone we get in return take the place of Beckett (or maybe have Aceves become the 5th starter and have Bailey take over as the closer when healthy). On top of that, I would promote Iglesias to SS. I want to see how good Iglesias will be in the big leagues. If he is great, awesome! Bogaerts is coming along really well in the minors, so if Iglesias sucks on the Sox, at least we have Bogaerts to replace him. Again, if Iglesias is doing well on the Sox, and Bogaerts is ready to make the jump, then you have trade bait (pick one). Bring the youth in, and let's watch some players who don't have attitude problems. I want to like the players on my favorite team again.

Nomar
06-13-2012, 05:09 PM
We dont even need to trade for anyone besides maybe another solid starting pitcher.

The most important things are getting Youk out of here, having guys come back from injuries, and i would throw in bringing up Kalish too.

johnnyswimm
06-13-2012, 05:57 PM
Im really getting sick of hearing of Kalish. I'm sorry he's not really that great. Our biggest mistake is sticking with Kalish and letting reddish go. The sox OF I believe has less HR combines then reddick this year. So far trade = fail. They need to trade away some people not blow it up but as hard as its to say bye bye youk. Middlebrooks needs to stay up he needs to stay hitting the MLB pitching. When your bullpens set up man is Vincente Padilla you know it's time to make some changes. So far we got killed on the trades we made other than Sweeney.
I'm ok with trading some prospects like Iglesias for some young strong talent lets face it Iglesias is horrible with the bat and you can't tell me that defense is winning games. Time to shake up the atmosphere around there and trade the dead weight *cough Beckett.

Nomar
06-13-2012, 07:53 PM
Im really getting sick of hearing of Kalish. I'm sorry he's not really that great. Our biggest mistake is sticking with Kalish and letting reddish go. The sox OF I believe has less HR combines then reddick this year. So far trade = fail. They need to trade away some people not blow it up but as hard as its to say bye bye youk. Middlebrooks needs to stay up he needs to stay hitting the MLB pitching. When your bullpens set up man is Vincente Padilla you know it's time to make some changes. So far we got killed on the trades we made other than Sweeney.
I'm ok with trading some prospects like Iglesias for some young strong talent lets face it Iglesias is horrible with the bat and you can't tell me that defense is winning games. Time to shake up the atmosphere around there and trade the dead weight *cough Beckett.

Kalish could be a 20/20 player so yeah i guess hes pretty awful.

BGeer091
06-13-2012, 08:16 PM
I voted blow up the team. My reasoning is I don't really wanna trade our specs for a player or two for this season. I'd rather get rid of some of our veterans for specs on younger players. To me this is how I see it.

Untouchables;
Doubront
Buchholz
Pedroia
Middlebrooks

Thats not including anyone on our AAA roster just our MLB roster.

Our farm system is absolutely turning into something special. While im not sure we have a clear cut ace in there. We certainly have 2 or 3 guys that are potentially very good starters. We definitely seem to have some All Star caliber position players. I would personally like to trade some of our Veterans to get some almost ready MLB talent.

A few trades I have proposed is this;

Youk + Aceves to LAD for Lee and Withrow

Ross + to ATL for Mike Minor.

Im not sure how I feel about Jon Lester. I'd love to keep him but he's probably the one guy we could get a ton for.

Ellsbury is another guy i'd love to keep but we could really get something for him. I would love to see something like this;

Ells + Iggy + 2 specs to SF for Cain.

The front office is kinda in a big spot here. To be honest lately they have been screwing up these situations. So we shall see. We need an Ace. That should be our first priority. Maybe it would take moving Lester to another team while acquiring Hammels. Idk. So many decisions need to be made....

Nomar
06-13-2012, 09:21 PM
I dont trust Cain in our division.

Tragedy
06-14-2012, 12:04 AM
I wouldn't "blow up" the team. But if we can get a chance to trade Beckett, Youkilis, Ellsbury, Aviles, Schoppach, or Ross, I'm all for it. We're not going to win this year and I think we can manage without these guys.

elements1985
06-14-2012, 02:36 AM
That expression is used quite frequently, and it makes me scratch my head: 'blow it up' ... for what? To wait for the next wave of prospects set to arrive in 2013? To bring in more high-priced free agents? Moving some key (under-performing) pieces, okay. Starting from scratch, on the other hand? I don't get it.

This 2012 team has obvious deficiencies; but +/- 40% of the league would KILL for these 'problems'. Consider how long it took Baltimore to reach this point in the AL East (albeit with fewer resources) -- there's no way BRS fans would have that patience. And there's no way BRS ownership wants to face the financial (revenue) implications of rebuilding.

If I'm Cherington, I hope Buchholz and Doubront develop into studs; hope Lester can return to a top 7-12 SP; but look into trading for a bona fide #1 a la Felix Hernandez. This team needs an ace in the lineage of Clemens, Martinez and Schilling.

Boston-Born
06-14-2012, 08:19 AM
I dont trust Cain in our division.

:laugh: Great timing for this

TragicallyHip
06-14-2012, 08:23 AM
Right, as he throws a perfect game haha

RedSoxtober
06-14-2012, 10:00 AM
Ross + to ATL for Mike Minor.

The Braves have (rightfully) been FAR too protective of their young pitching prospects to give someone like Minor up for spare parts. Needs much more than Ross to even hint at being successful.


Ells + Iggy + 2 specs to SF for Cain.
I strongly doubt the Giants signed Cain to a $127.5M/6yr extension with an option for a 7th season to trade him half a season later. No chance.

Station 13
06-14-2012, 10:52 AM
I strongly doubt the Giants signed Cain to a $127.5M/6yr extension with an option for a 7th season to trade him half a season later. No chance.

They got it right with Cain. Lincecum won't be missed much by them.

johnnyswimm
06-14-2012, 12:10 PM
Kalish could be a 20/20 player so yeah i guess hes pretty awful.
But see here lies the problem and that's the instant you say could be. Reddick IS producing at the MLB level and heavily enforce that IS part. Like Dice-k could of been a good pitcher. Lackey could of been good for us. I don't hate kalish I think he is a good player but to me he seems a little overrated.

RedSoxtober
06-14-2012, 01:54 PM
But see here lies the problem and that's the instant you say could be. Reddick IS producing at the MLB level and heavily enforce that IS part. Like Dice-k could of been a good pitcher. Lackey could of been good for us. I don't hate kalish I think he is a good player but to me he seems a little overrated.

.252/.305/.405 with 4HR, 11-2B, and 1-3B as a 22yr old promoted directly out of AA ball as an emergency OFer and having missed most of one minor league season with a wrist injury. No, that's not really overrated. He's got the tools (much more than Reddick) along with a great deal more plate discipline.

BTW, Reddick hasn't HRed in almost 3 weeks and has settled into a .267/.338/.851. Not bad but the league is figuring him out now that he's playing regularly. His SLG will drop as holes are exploited.

Nomar
06-14-2012, 05:22 PM
Lol look at my comment from yesterday hahaha. Idk though a guy coming from the NL West to the AL East thats dangerous.

SirHizz
06-14-2012, 08:05 PM
Right now? We're basically in the middle of nowhere. You either go for it and make a big splash before/at the deadline or you sell some parts of the team. Of course not a firesale like the Marlins used to do, but some guys could be traded for useful pieces in the future.

That would be my approach if I were BC. 6 GB doesn't sound like the world, but there are 4 Teams between us and first place, that's a lot.
Our pitching is not nearly good enough. Lester is not a true #1. Beckett is maybe still a decent #2, Buchholz is not a great #3 (at least not on a contender) and Doubront is, while being surprisingly refreshing, still shaky. Oh...and we still don't have an adequate #5.

If we really want to have a rotation that deserves to be recognized, we need a true #1 starter. Because then everyone else would be bumped down a spot. And then all of a sudden...Lester would be a great #2, Beckett a great #3, Buchholz probably a decent/great #4 and Doubront a great #5.
Of course finding that true ace is tough. Don't know if Hamels is that kinda guy.

Nomar
06-14-2012, 08:40 PM
Right now? We're basically in the middle of nowhere. You either go for it and make a big splash before/at the deadline or you sell some parts of the team. Of course not a firesale like the Marlins used to do, but some guys could be traded for useful pieces in the future.

That would be my approach if I were BC. 6 GB doesn't sound like the world, but there are 4 Teams between us and first place, that's a lot.
Our pitching is not nearly good enough. Lester is not a true #1. Beckett is maybe still a decent #2, Buchholz is not a great #3 (at least not on a contender) and Doubront is, while being surprisingly refreshing, still shaky. Oh...and we still don't have an adequate #5.

If we really want to have a rotation that deserves to be recognized, we need a true #1 starter. Because then everyone else would be bumped down a spot. And then all of a sudden...Lester would be a great #2, Beckett a great #3, Buchholz probably a decent/great #4 and Doubront a great #5.
Of course finding that true ace is tough. Don't know if Hamels is that kinda guy.

Buchholz is a great #3 IMO

Bo Sox Fan
06-14-2012, 09:59 PM
We need an ACE, and it's Felix Hernandez or nothing IMO. Hammels is good, but isn't an "elite" arm that can regularily steal you games like Felix. That and he will be vastly overpaid through free agency.

Would anyone seriously consider giving up all 3 of Buchholz, Bard and highly touted prospect Matt Barnes to "get the ball rolling" on a deal to finally land our biggest need?

Lackey is going nowhere, but this rotation would still get me excited along with the back end of our pen...

2013
Hernandez
Lester
Beckett
Doubront
Lackey

Bailey
Aceves
Melancon...

Crucis
06-14-2012, 10:09 PM
Exactly why does everyone seem to think that the Mariners would even be willing to trade King Felix? After all, they signed him to an extension. Teams that are looking to trade an ace pitcher do so because the player is in the final year of his contract and the team is looking to get some return on him before he hits free agency.

PAOboston
06-14-2012, 10:42 PM
i'm not on the entire "firesale" bandwagon.

this team is pretty talented as is with a bunch of injuries and players underachieving. ells will come back. crawford will come back. this team is only 6 games out in mid june. plenty of time to catch fire. and there's another wild card spot this year too which increases your chances to make the playoffs.

Nomar
06-14-2012, 11:27 PM
Id trade Lester to get Hernandez, not Buchholz.

johnnyswimm
06-15-2012, 02:12 AM
.252/.305/.405 with 4HR, 11-2B, and 1-3B as a 22yr old promoted directly out of AA ball as an emergency OFer and having missed most of one minor league season with a wrist injury. No, that's not really overrated. He's got the tools (much more than Reddick) along with a great deal more plate discipline.

BTW, Reddick hasn't HRed in almost 3 weeks and has settled into a .267/.338/.851. Not bad but the league is figuring him out now that he's playing regularly. His SLG will drop as holes are exploited.

Ok, true I know it may seem like I dislike Kalish but I really don't I'm all for him getting his chance. He needs to stay healthy it's wrist and shoulder injuries he did good when he came up but I guess it will be determined when he comes up if it was worth it.

SoxFan0407
06-15-2012, 07:55 AM
Id trade Lester to get Hernandez, not Buchholz.

This.

RedSoxtober
06-15-2012, 09:17 AM
That would be my approach if I were BC. 6 GB doesn't sound like the world, but there are 4 Teams between us and first place, that's a lot.
Our pitching is not nearly good enough. Lester is not a true #1. Beckett is maybe still a decent #2, Buchholz is not a great #3 (at least not on a contender) and Doubront is, while being surprisingly refreshing, still shaky. Oh...and we still don't have an adequate #5.

I agree with your general premise but disagree with a few of these characterizations.

While I was as down on Buchholz as most everyone else, he's been pretty phenomenal in his last six starts (2ER or less five times, 7IP or more the last 4). To put that into perspective, Verlander has only one such stretch this season. It's TOP of the rotation stuff.
I don't understand how Doubront can be considered shaky. Early in the season it might be reasonable to call him inefficient but he's really improved his pitch counts as the season has progressed. His six-run game against MIA? Meh, everyone has one of those once in a while; it was the first time in six starts that he'd given up more than 3ER. Couple his improving efficiency with the second-best k/9 in MLB and you've got someone who is far more than competent as a #2-3 let alone #4... even on a WS winner.
The team currently has no #5 but I presume Lackey will be more than sufficient as a #5 next year. I'm sure I'll get some grief over this view but I believe it to be true. I believe the elbow has been an issue for his entire run in a Sox uniform.


One of the most frustrating characteristics of the current rotation is that it apparently now contains three slow starters (Lester, Beckett, Buchholz). I am not sure that a championship team can survive having three slow starters, especially when those three are the top three in the rotation. If/when Lackey returns then the number jumps to 4. Moving one for a guy without a slow-starting track record might make sense.


Exactly why does everyone seem to think that the Mariners would even be willing to trade King Felix? After all, they signed him to an extension. Teams that are looking to trade an ace pitcher do so because the player is in the final year of his contract and the team is looking to get some return on him before he hits free agency.

I've actually changed my mind in this regard lately. When Felix signed his deal the Mariners had closed the previous year on a 31-23 run. They traded for Cliff Lee and I think they honestly thought that they might have a shot to make the playoffs in 2010. The only thing that flopped worse than that scenario have been the prized prospects they obtained in exchange for Lee. Smoak has a career 93 OPS+, not quite what you want from a 1B and a long way from the promise he showed with the other USC. Beaven is on a run similar to Lackey 2010-11 and Lueke was dealt away after a weak debut. There might be something to salvage in Lawson.

That's not just meant to be an history lesson. The point is that the Mariners thought that Lee or the talent that he'd fetch in a deal would put them in place for a playoff run. Instead they've finished below 70 wins two straight seasons, are on pace to make it three straight, and the talent bubble does not appear anywhere close to producing solid players any time soon.

That's the scenario as they muddle through the third season of Felix's five year extension. The first two years were relatively cheap (less than one year of Lackey combined) but now he's pretty expensive by their standards ($18.5M this year, 19.5M next, and 20M in 2014). If they honestly assess their chances then they might consider Hernandez's value to the team to be greater in trade than in pitching. Having been burned on past deals I would consider moving him but demanding MLB ready or current MLB talent in return, at least one of which would be a rotation replacement. Their two SS options are both below the Mendoza line, Ichiro has an OBP below .300, their other OF option is Figgins. In fact, all their corner players are struggling and Montero is still coming of age in full time MLB action. I wonder if a package of Lester, Youkillis, Iglesias, and one of Sweeney/Hassan/Brentz/Jacobs would do the trick. Pick the right OFer and all four could be playing tomorrow.

(Sorry, that got pretty lengthy. Don't mean it as a lecture. Just think the rationale takes a lot of context.)


This.
Believe it or not, I agree.

avrpatsfan
06-15-2012, 12:46 PM
Id trade Lester to get Hernandez, not Buchholz.
Why? Because Buchholz has had a few good starts in a row? (though I think we'd have to give up much more than Buchholz, I'd much rather have Lester and Hernandez than Buchholz and Hernandez)

bagwell368
06-15-2012, 01:43 PM
Id trade Lester to get Hernandez, not Buchholz.

Buchholz compared to Lester is:

1. injury prone
2. not much younger, but has done oh so much less - toss in the big C and it's ridiculous.
3. is below ML QS% - 49% to 50%, while Lester is well over at 59%.

Since Buchholz is signed for more years and less money - now would be the perfect time harvest his value before the brittle little fellow breaks again.

RedSoxtober
06-15-2012, 04:40 PM
I'd do it if it reduced the overall package. That is, if I Lester = Buchholz + spec or Lester + C spec = Buchholz + A spec then I'd move lester.

While I understand what Bags is saying, I'm concerned about the slide in Lester's performance. It's not just a down year, it is (IMO) slow degradation since 2008.

SirHizz
06-15-2012, 06:45 PM
Buchholz compared to Lester is:

1. injury prone
2. not much younger, but has done oh so much less - toss in the big C and it's ridiculous.
3. is below ML QS% - 49% to 50%, while Lester is well over at 59%.

Since Buchholz is signed for more years and less money - now would be the perfect time harvest his value before the brittle little fellow breaks again.

Agreed.

I fully understand where RedSoxtober is coming from with his opinion on Buchholz. It looks like he's as slow of a starter as it gets. Remember last year, his first few starts have been nearly as bad and right when he was about to catch fire, he got injured.
But all in all, Clay's got too many question marks for me. "Breaking down" is always a concern with this guy. So I'd rather have Lester on this team...and by a fair margin.

Best case sceneario would be ADDING starters instead of getting rid of them, but if Buchholz could fetch us a good/great okayer/pitcher, I'd do it.

I am 50/50 on King Felix. He's a great pitcher, but maybe a bit overhyped due to a weak division (at least that was the cast a few years ago) and pitching in a great pitchers park.

Would you guys be ok to part ways with: Bucholz/Doubront, Barnes and another significant player/prospect or two?

Problem is: lots of goof things may be said about our starting rotation. Lester is Lester, Beckett is pitching decent, Buchholz is coming around, Prince Felix is doing great...and so on, but I still don't get the feeling that we do have a great rotation. How come?
Because, in my opinion, we lack a true #1 starter. Someone like Pedro. Back in the days when he was great, we could be looking at his start and say "no matter what, we are winning this game".
We probably need to get rid of some "bad habits" (i.e. Beckett and Lackey) and execute some changes to spark new life to this team.

For the love of god, I hope BC is going to make some trades ASAP. Even if it's only for prospects. We've got some guys who might be very interesting for contending teams...and we don't need all of them. A few relievers here and a few outfielders there.

jtchilln
06-15-2012, 09:12 PM
Is it just Sox and Yanks fans that come up with crazy trade proposals for King Felix or do all other teams fans?

Why would Seattle ever trade him?

RedSoxtober
06-15-2012, 09:37 PM
I fully understand where RedSoxtober is coming from with his opinion on Buchholz. It looks like he's as slow of a starter as it gets. Remember last year, his first few starts have been nearly as bad and right when he was about to catch fire, he got injured.
For me cost is part of the equation. You've got Buchholz who's still going to be on reasonable money through 2016 and could slide to the back end of the rotation. Lester, on the other hand, has 2013 plus an option before hitting FA. His FA years start with his age 30 season which can be an iffy time to sign a pitcher (admittedly he's got a great pitcher's build so he may be fine physically).

If it were three players and Lester or Buchholz, I'd give up Buchholz without hesitation. I doubt it's that straightforward, though. I suspect Lester's track record and LHP status makes him more valuable hence reducing the cost of the deal in other areas.


I am 50/50 on King Felix. He's a great pitcher, but maybe a bit overhyped due to a weak division (at least that was the cast a few years ago) and pitching in a great pitchers park.

Hernandez home: .243/.303/.354 against, 3.20ERA, 1.203 whip, .301BABIP
Hernandez away: .247/.309/.370 against, 3.33ERA, 1.255 whip, .300BABIP

Hernandez vs:
Blue Jays: .251/.314/.406, 4.37ERA
Red Sox: .249/.318/.377, 3.55ERA
Rangers: .255/.320/.379, 3.92ERA
Tigers: .239/.307/.290, 2.65ERA
Yankees: .266/.334/.403, 3.45ERA

Teams over .500: .252/.309/.370, 3.41ERA

Home and road splits are nearly identical. Very similar opponents' hitting outside the West. Nearly identical performance against teams over .500.

No, it's not the division or the home park. He's been that successful.

CELTICS4LYFE
06-17-2012, 03:20 PM
We gotta get rid of Beckett and Youk but not "blow up" the team.

khanusma
06-18-2012, 12:21 PM
im muslim so i generally resort to blowing things up...


.... but in this case I would wait for our guys to come back in july and see what we can do with this season. having an extra wildcard team gives us a slightly higher chance of getting in.

ricomactaco
06-18-2012, 12:32 PM
:laugh2:
im muslim so i generally resort to blowing things up...


.... but in this case I would wait for our guys to come back in july and see what we can do with this season. having an extra wildcard team gives us a slightly higher chance of getting in.:laugh2:

BGeer091
06-18-2012, 12:54 PM
An idea one of my friends had was a Lester + for Hamels. I don't know if I would personally do that. What do you guys think of that? Maybe a Youkilis + Lester for Hamels and a B spec?