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View Full Version : Confirmed Jordan/Bird/Magic kept Isiah off the Dream Team



Longhornfan1234
06-11-2012, 12:13 PM
from ESPN's show on The Dream Team. Isiah deserved to be on that team more than just about everyone other than Larry and Magic at the time.

Everyone loves Jordan, but the guy is an a hole. His Hall of Fame Speech said everything anyone needed to know about the guy.



Do you think Isiah should have played on the team?

asandhu23
06-11-2012, 12:20 PM
who would you have taken off to make space for Isiah?

knicks4life33
06-11-2012, 12:21 PM
christian laettaner youngin lol

waveycrockett
06-11-2012, 12:24 PM
who would you have taken off to make space for Isiah?
christian laettner

carruthers32
06-11-2012, 12:24 PM
christian laettaner youngin lol

You needed one University player on the roster. He had to be on it, or someone else from NCAA

asandhu23
06-11-2012, 12:24 PM
Laettner wasn't a bad player. perfect role player.

Longhornfan1234
06-11-2012, 12:25 PM
who would you have taken off to make space for Isiah?

Stockton.



Stockton, Bird, and Laettner were the weak links.

King41
06-11-2012, 12:27 PM
hmm heavy decision

JordansBulls
06-11-2012, 12:28 PM
from ESPN's show on The Dream Team. Isiah deserved to be on that team more than just about everyone other than Larry and Magic at the time.

Everyone loves Jordan, but the guy is an a hole. His Hall of Fame Speech said everything anyone needed to know about the guy.



Do you think Isiah should have played on the team?

That is what happens when you walk off the court without congratulating a team for beating you when they themselves did so the previous years when Detroit won.

But you are right I would have had Isiah on it, just not sure in place of whom. Jordan wanted Pippen on the team more than Isiah. And I believe they wanted Stockton with Malone on it. Drexler was on it because of his past 3 seasons. Mullin was on it for outside shooting due to Bird being nearly finished.

DaBUU
06-11-2012, 12:28 PM
Good, he was and still is a punk ***** B****, he didnt deserve to be on that team. Glad The GOAT said nope.

Gators123
06-11-2012, 12:31 PM
Yes. Even Magic said he deserved to be on the team.

Longhornfan1234
06-11-2012, 12:32 PM
That is what happens when you walk off the court without congratulating a team for beating you when they themselves did so the previous years when Detroit won.

But you are right I would have had Isiah on it, just not sure in place of whom. Jordan wanted Pippen on the team more than Isiah. And I believe they wanted Stockton with Malone on it. Drexler was on it because of his past 3 seasons.

Still Bush league.

albertc86
06-11-2012, 12:36 PM
Already knew this story.



You know what's ironic? Sorry to bring Kobe into the conversation but I have to. What I find ironic is, the same people that hate Kobe today, would've hated Jordan today. Jordan wasn't exactly Mr. Nice Guy or humble. This leads me to believe that some fans on here are too young to remember that and the fans that are old enough to remember never paid attention to Jordan's personality.

JordansBulls
06-11-2012, 12:37 PM
Still Bush league.

Why have a bad sportsmanship on the Dream Team though? You want a team that will be an example and not have someone on the team who walks off the court like that. Not to mention by the end of 1992 Stockton was better than Isiah.

albertc86
06-11-2012, 12:48 PM
Not to mention by the end of 1992 Stockton was better than Isiah.

I don't think Isiah's declining game had anything to do with it at all. Isiah being on the roster would've truly made it what the team was --- The Dream Team. Whether his game was there or not - on paper - it would've fit the bill.

beasted86
06-11-2012, 12:49 PM
Good, he was and still is a punk ***** B****, he didnt deserve to be on that team. Glad The GOAT said nope.

I think you are the punk ***** ***** for being a Jordan fanboy on his jock.

Neither you now nor Jordan back then can keep your emotional-ness out of it.

popo85
06-11-2012, 12:50 PM
Both MJ and Magic wanted him off, he said rumors about how Magic had HIV.

JordansBulls
06-11-2012, 12:50 PM
I don't think Isiah's declining game had anything to do with it at all. Isiah being on the roster would've truly made it what the team was --- The Dream Team. Whether his game was there or not - on paper - it would've fit the bill.

Again I would have probably had him on the team myself, just not sure in place of. Afterall Bird was on the team he was nearly done and Magic was on the team and he had already retired.

albertc86
06-11-2012, 12:53 PM
Both MJ and Magic wanted him off, he said rumors about how Magic had HIV.

He basically called Magic gay.

MCSJR2
06-11-2012, 01:04 PM
Already knew this story.



You know what's ironic? Sorry to bring Kobe into the conversation but I have to. What I find ironic is, the same people that hate Kobe today, would've hated Jordan today. Jordan wasn't exactly Mr. Nice Guy or humble. This leads me to believe that some fans on here are too young to remember that and the fans that are old enough to remember never paid attention to Jordan's personality.

Exactly! We loved Jordan because he was exciting to watch....

ManRam
06-11-2012, 01:10 PM
Yup. This shouldn't surprise anyone. MJ was far from being the most friendly and likeable guy. Probably a big reason he had such success...but he had many character flaws.

Would have been interesting to watch his career unfold with the much more obtrusive, intense and persistent media...and to see if perception of hin would have been any different. We bash super stars today for such small things....


With that said, Thomas was extremely polarizing, and his competitiveness really rubbed people the wrong way a lot of the time. He was a bit of a punk.

stensley
06-11-2012, 01:25 PM
from ESPN's show on The Dream Team. Isiah deserved to be on that team more than just about everyone other than Larry and Magic at the time.

Everyone loves Jordan, but the guy is an a hole. His Hall of Fame Speech said everything anyone needed to know about the guy.



Do you think Isiah should have played on the team?

You forget that isiah also led the way to freezing Jordan out in his first all star game because he felt that Jordan didn't deserve all the votes that he got for the all star game, on top of the lack of sportsmanship he and the rest of the Piston showed after Jordan and the Bulls finally beat them...pay back is a b$&ch!!!

Hawkeye15
06-11-2012, 01:26 PM
Stockton.



Stockton, Bird, and Laettner were the weak links.

hahaha, what? Stockton was a far superior player to Thomas, and his pass first, and pass it correctly style was far better than another scorer.

Thomas should have not been such a major ******* to everyone during his life, and perhaps things would have worked out better for him. I am actually happy he didn't get to touch that squad.

I can't believe anyone would mention Stockton hahaha.

stensley
06-11-2012, 01:27 PM
Both MJ and Magic wanted him off, he said rumors about how Magic had HIV.

He and magic don't speak this day...remember how much of a good friends they were

Hawkeye15
06-11-2012, 01:28 PM
That is what happens when you walk off the court without congratulating a team for beating you when they themselves did so the previous years when Detroit won.

But you are right I would have had Isiah on it, just not sure in place of whom. Jordan wanted Pippen on the team more than Isiah. And I believe they wanted Stockton with Malone on it. Drexler was on it because of his past 3 seasons. Mullin was on it for outside shooting due to Bird being nearly finished.

Or when you say Larry Bird would be considered average if he were black moments after he stole your lazy inbounds pass to send you home. Or when you act like a child when Jordan finally takes your spot in the finals.

Thomas burned bridges with players. This is not old news. And he wasn't good enough that coaches for the Dream Team would even bother trying to force him on when there were 2 FAR better PG available.

There was no need for Thomas. Was he better than an aging/hurt Bird at that point? Sure. But we had 2 better PG's, both passing PG's, and had no need for Thomas so to speak.

Hawkeye15
06-11-2012, 01:30 PM
Already knew this story.



You know what's ironic? Sorry to bring Kobe into the conversation but I have to. What I find ironic is, the same people that hate Kobe today, would've hated Jordan today. Jordan wasn't exactly Mr. Nice Guy or humble. This leads me to believe that some fans on here are too young to remember that and the fans that are old enough to remember never paid attention to Jordan's personality.

Its called media/internet dude. Didn't have it to a tenth of the degree we have it today. In 1991 we aren't seeing video of Kobe crying that they didn't trade his young center for Kidd. One example. Today's available information and speed of it make everyone vulnerable.

Pierzynski4Prez
06-11-2012, 01:35 PM
Actually John Stockton kept Isiah off the Dream Team.

Stockton in 90-91 was 17ppg/14apg, and 91-92 he was 16/14.

Meanwhile Isiah during those same years leading up to the olympics was 16/9 and 18/7.

Scoring wasn't a need at all from the PG position, so tell me which PG you would want. Stockton was easily the better distributor amongst the 2, and clearly the better choice.

Pierzynski4Prez
06-11-2012, 01:36 PM
Or when you say Larry Bird would be considered average if he were black moments after he stole your lazy inbounds pass to send you home. Or when you act like a child when Jordan finally takes your spot in the finals.

Thomas burned bridges with players. This is not old news. And he wasn't good enough that coaches for the Dream Team would even bother trying to force him on when there were 2 FAR better PG available.

There was no need for Thomas. Was he better than an aging/hurt Bird at that point? Sure. But we had 2 better PG's, both passing PG's, and had no need for Thomas so to speak.

Perfectly said.

Hawkeye15
06-11-2012, 01:39 PM
In sports, you get a pass when you are a complete dick as long as you are ELITE, and on top of your position. The NFL WR position is a perfect example. Now, when you start to decline, or there are a couple of guys better now at that position, you being a *** hole comes back to bite you. This is what happened with Thomas in 1992. Plus he literally pissed off the 3 living legends the team already had on it. Cmon, how can any of you care that he was left off?

Pierzynski4Prez
06-11-2012, 01:42 PM
^Some people just look to knock MJ anyway they can (like stuff 20 years ago really matters now), similar to how people just wanna knock LBJ any way possible.

dh144498
06-11-2012, 01:43 PM
we already know MJ is one of the biggest d-bag in the basketball world. No matter how great he was/is as a player, the guy is an a-hole. This does not surprise me at all.

JordansBulls
06-11-2012, 01:47 PM
we already know MJ is one of the biggest d-bag in the basketball world. No matter how great he was/is as a player, the guy is an a-hole. This does not surprise me at all.

Except it wasn't just MJ it was Magic and Bird that kept Isiah off the team as well.

Hawkeye15
06-11-2012, 01:52 PM
we already know MJ is one of the biggest d-bag in the basketball world. No matter how great he was/is as a player, the guy is an a-hole. This does not surprise me at all.

and Thomas was an even bigger douche. Look at him over his NBA career following, my god. And again, the 3 legendary players on that Dream Team, he already decided to burn bridges with them. It wasn't just Jordan. It was MJ, Magic, Bird, and the better player in Stockton that made it an easy choice.

You will be hard pressed to find any non-Thomas/Pistons fan that really give a **** about this. Thomas was a douchebag.

JordansBulls
06-11-2012, 01:52 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/Isiah-Thomas-living-life-in-exile-shunned-by-NBA-032911



Accusations he orchestrated a freeze-out of Michael Jordan during the 1985 All-Star Game. His comment after losing in the 1987 Eastern Conference finals to the Celtics that if Larry Bird was black “he'd be another good guy.”

The 1992 Dream Team snub. Magic Johnson's very public rebuke. Talk he ruined the minor-league Continental Basketball Association as its owner. The confusion surrounding Isiah's alleged suicide attempt, his daughter's trip to the hospital and the controversy surrounding both.







http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hill/091104&sportCat=nba




In the book, which Johnson co-authored with Larry Bird and frequent ESPN contributor Jackie MacMullan, Johnson admits he helped keep Thomas off the 1992 U.S. Olympic Dream Team because he believed that, in the wake of Johnson's announcement in 1991 that he had HIV, his once-dear friend spread a rumor he was gay or bisexual.




So yeah it wasn't just MJ who kept Isiah off it was Magic as well because of the rumors Isiah started and not to mention how he talked about Bird.

Hawkeye15
06-11-2012, 01:53 PM
^Some people just look to knock MJ anyway they can (like stuff 20 years ago really matters now), similar to how people just wanna knock LBJ any way possible.

oh Jordan was a douche. But you get away with it when you are MICHAEL FREAKIN JORDAN. You don't get away with it when you are a fringe top 50-70 player ever, while never being the best player in the league.

Hawkeye15
06-11-2012, 01:56 PM
I actually edited the title of the thread. Anyone who comes in here ready to defend Thomas needs to understand that MJ/Bird/Magic were all responsible for him being left off the team.

Kobe2324
06-11-2012, 01:59 PM
stockton and magic at the point, it's hard t say one of those 2 away, laetner had to be on the team, in my opinion it was the right choice, did he deserve to play for the dream well yes, but the 2 guards that were there in my opinon were better

BKLYNpigeon
06-11-2012, 02:04 PM
we already knew that when MJ released his book. MJ did not like Isiah. MJ has the final word. its a non issue.

Isiah probably should have been on that team, but who cares. Isiah should have checked his attitude at the door.

KB-Pau-DH2012
06-11-2012, 02:06 PM
Why would Magic keep Isaiah off the Olgmpic team when the two were embracing and kissing like crazy in the 92 Orlando All Star Game just months earlier? I think Isiah calling Magic gay was just another nasty false rumor. MJ is a douche, we all know this, stop defending him JordanBulls. Yes, he is the GOAT, but don't shove aside His *******-ness when he used to abuse and berate teammates in practice, left Isaiah off the Olympic team, the gambling issues and Stern trying to cover his *** in the mid 90s, him sleeping around with women like all NBA players do but never getting called out on it and always looked upon as a role model. So what if Isiah didn't shake MJ's hand in 87. What? If Dwight were playing in this summer's olympics, should he have told Colangelo to leave LeBron off the team because LeBron didn't shake his hand after the 09 ECF? :confused: Who the hell is MJ to leave other people off the team? He wasn't even the guy that had the most titles on that Olympic team. That honor belonged to Magic and Larry ahead of MJ.

Vinylman
06-11-2012, 02:10 PM
He and magic don't speak this day...remember how much of a good friends they were

total bull ****

i personally talked to both magic and isiah at the same time at MSG about 5or 6 years ago when i was there for a knicks/Lakers game... they stood in that hallway to the lockerroom where the players enter and exit the floor and talked the WHOLE game... i was sitting on the end of the aisle watching them

Don't say **** that isn't remotely accurate

Wade>You
06-11-2012, 02:16 PM
It's political, obviously. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgFLPzOMMt0#t=1m12s)

bagwell368
06-11-2012, 02:27 PM
Isiah pissed off a lot of people, including people that thought he was a friend. He got what he had coming from a social angle and may not have deserved a spot just on his talent alone.

IT: ""I think Larry is a very, very good basketball player. An exceptional talent, but I have to agree with Rodman. If he were black, he'd be just another good guy."

Jackie Mac: "Magic didn't object when Thomas was left off the 1992 Olympic Dream Team: "Nobody on that team wanted to play with him," writes Johnson, et al. ". . . Michael didn't want to play with him. Scottie [Pippen] wanted no part of him. Bird wasn't pushing for him. Karl Malone didn't want him. Who was saying, 'We need this guy?' Nobody."

Hawkeye15
06-11-2012, 02:30 PM
I would love to see Thomas one day and ask him, "If Bird was just another guy if black, what are you? Well below average obviously?"

silvTeg98
06-11-2012, 02:32 PM
jordan is a *****

Longhornfan1234
06-11-2012, 02:39 PM
Why have a bad sportsmanship on the Dream Team though? You want a team that will be an example and not have someone on the team who walks off the court like that. Not to mention by the end of 1992 Stockton was better than Isiah.

Are they adults? MJ should deal with it like a real man. Jordan's statement about how he didn't respect the Pistons, nobody likes their style, etc....

You think Isiah and Laimbeer are going to shake hands with Jordan after that? Get real...

Longhornfan1234
06-11-2012, 02:42 PM
oh Jordan was a douche. But you get away with it when you are MICHAEL FREAKIN JORDAN. You don't get away with it when you are a fringe top 50-70 player ever, while never being the best player in the league.

I can't take you seriously now... :facepalm:

Longhornfan1234
06-11-2012, 02:45 PM
MJ, "Bird", and "Magic"(LOL @ thread title edit) should have looked past it, because Isiah was a lot more deserving to be on that team than some of the guys that were on it.

Isiah was a 2-time NBA Champion, yearly All-Star player and one of the very greatest PG's to ever play in the NBA and a HOF player.

Based on his play on the court and his accomplishments on the court he should have been on that team.

Hawkeye15
06-11-2012, 02:47 PM
I can't take you seriously now... :facepalm:

get in line. I think you overrate Thomas pretty badly. At no point was he even the best at his position, and the dude has a career PER of 18.1, offensive rating of 105. That is nothing special in the slightest. I watched his whole career. He had some amazing stretches, but is possibly not even a top 10 PG to play. I don't even feel like looking them up at the moment, because nothing jumps out at me about Thomas.

CB29
06-11-2012, 02:48 PM
This would be relevant if the dream team didn't win... It's completely irrelevant considering they won... Barkley always said that the chemistry of everyone on that team was amazing so it was a very smart move by those 3 guys then...

Hellcrooner
06-11-2012, 02:48 PM
Magic/Jordan/Bird/Malone/RObinson
Stockton/Drexler/Worhty/Barkley/Ewing
Thomas/Shaq

thats what should have been out with Pipp, Laettner and Mullin

Hawkeye15
06-11-2012, 02:48 PM
MJ, "Bird", and "Magic"(LOL @ thread title edit) should have looked past it, because Isiah was a lot more deserving to be on that team than some of the guys that were on it.

Isiah was a 2-time NBA Champion, yearly All-Star player and one of the very greatest PG's to ever play in the NBA and a HOF player.

Based on his play on the court and his accomplishments on the court he should have been on that team.

Stockton and Magic were better players. Laettner was a rule add-in. There was no need for another PG. Factor in that most the players on the team hated him, it was a no-brainer.

Not sure why it bothers you so much, 20 years after the fact, when most of us who grew up at that time understood the disdain most players had for him.

KnicksorBust
06-11-2012, 02:49 PM
MJ, "Bird", and "Magic"(LOL @ thread title edit) should have looked past it, because Isiah was a lot more deserving to be on that team than some of the guys that were on it.

Isiah was a 2-time NBA Champion, yearly All-Star player and one of the very greatest PG's to ever play in the NBA and a HOF player.

Based on his play on the court and his accomplishments on the court he should have been on that team.

I agree with you that Hawkeye's assessment of him as a "fringe 50-70 player" is off but I still don't see how you can justify putting him on the team when they only took 2 PGs. There was no one worse at his position that made team. Saying they should have taken a 3rd PG over Chris Mullin is a silly argument to me. They didn't need another point with Magic/Stockton.

Personally, I think he would have made them slightly worse.

Hawkeye15
06-11-2012, 02:50 PM
I agree with you that Hawkeye's assessment of him as a "fringe 50-70 player" is off but I still don't see how you can justify putting him on the team when they only took 2 PGs. There was no one worse at his position that made team. Saying they should have taken a 3rd PG over Chris Mullin is a silly argument to me. They didn't need another point with Magic/Stockton.

Personally, I think he would have made them slightly worse.

I just breezed through a few things, and yes, my 50-70 is off. I will change it to 40-50. Not budging on that. :)

KnicksorBust
06-11-2012, 02:52 PM
Magic/Jordan/Bird/Malone/RObinson
Stockton/Drexler/Worhty/Barkley/Ewing
Thomas/Shaq

thats what should have been out with Pipp, Laettner and Mullin

Worthy over Pippen? :confused:

I think you are forgetting Worthy was on his way out of the league in 92 (retired I believe in 94?) and Pippen was in his prime. I don't think there was anything that Worthy could do better than Pippen at that point of their careers.

Hawkeye15
06-11-2012, 02:54 PM
Worthy over Pippen? :confused:

I think you are forgetting Worthy was on his way out of the league in 92 (retired I believe in 94?) and Pippen was in his prime. I don't think there was anything that Worthy could do better than Pippen at that point of their careers.

I was going to respond, and then I remembered my friend Crooner is a huge Worthy fan...

KnicksorBust
06-11-2012, 02:54 PM
I just breezed through a few things, and yes, my 50-70 is off. I will change it to 40-50. Not budging on that. :)

I'll take it. I don't want to have to argue on Isiah's behalf. :laugh:

hugepatsfan
06-11-2012, 02:55 PM
Based on his play on the court and his accomplishments on the court he should have been on that team.

Being a team isn't just about what you do on the court and it isn't just about having the best players. The players have to fit together - on the court and personality wise.

Mr.ATLHawks
06-11-2012, 02:57 PM
He basically called Magic gay.

This.. He called Magic gay and other BS **** Isiah Thomas he didnt deserve ****. If anybody deserved to be on that team it was Shaquille O'Neal...

PDT4LIFE
06-11-2012, 03:11 PM
Anyone thinking that Stockton should have been replaced by Isiah is sadly mistaken. At the time, Stockton was a better assist man than Isiah which is exactly what the Dream Team needed. Furthermore, Isiah was always about the drama. Magic, MJ and Karl Malone had issues with him. Why bring him in that locker room and ruin the team chemistry? Just insane to even consider...

Hellcrooner
06-11-2012, 03:22 PM
Worthy over Pippen? :confused:

I think you are forgetting Worthy was on his way out of the league in 92 (retired I believe in 94?) and Pippen was in his prime. I don't think there was anything that Worthy could do better than Pippen at that point of their careers.

Pippen wasnt yet on his prime.

Worhty should have gotten the respect call like Magic or bird who were on teh decline ( well bird was basically done).


And in any case WILKINS who WAS still prime should have made it over Pippen too.

Pip only made the team because Jordan threatened to not report if he wasnt there.

AntiG
06-11-2012, 03:27 PM
who would you have taken off to make space for Isiah?

Mullin and Laettner shouldn't have been on the team over Isiah and Dominique.

PDT4LIFE
06-11-2012, 03:27 PM
MJ, "Bird", and "Magic"(LOL @ thread title edit) should have looked past it, because Isiah was a lot more deserving to be on that team than some of the guys that were on it.

Isiah was a 2-time NBA Champion, yearly All-Star player and one of the very greatest PG's to ever play in the NBA and a HOF player.

Based on his play on the court and his accomplishments on the court he should have been on that team.

The reason they didn't look past it is simple. One absolute common theme all three of their franchises had during the title years - Team Chemistry. Say what you will, but chemistry is not overrated.

So we get back to the original question, who does Isiah replace? Pippen? No -elite wing defender. Mullin? No -Deadly three point shooter who shot over 50% from the field. Stockton? Best pass first PG in the world at the time. I just can't even try to come up with many names. Simple fact is every player filled their role to a tee, and there is no getting around that.

AntiG
06-11-2012, 03:28 PM
You needed one University player on the roster. He had to be on it, or someone else from NCAA

Not really. There was no rule in place for that. They considered Isiah, Dumars and Wilkins for the last spot but decided to give Laettner the spot since he hit that miracle shot.

IndyRealist
06-11-2012, 03:33 PM
Stockton was, is, and always will be, better than Isaiah Thomas.

Jarvo
06-11-2012, 03:40 PM
Already knew this story.



You know what's ironic? Sorry to bring Kobe into the conversation but I have to. What I find ironic is, the same people that hate Kobe today, would've hated Jordan today. Jordan wasn't exactly Mr. Nice Guy or humble. This leads me to believe that some fans on here are too young to remember that and the fans that are old enough to remember never paid attention to Jordan's personality.

:clap: Thankyou but hate on Lebron Jordan was a dick.

JordansBulls
06-11-2012, 03:48 PM
Mullin and Laettner shouldn't have been on the team over Isiah and Dominique.

Dominique tore his ACL in January of the 1992 season so he wouldn't have been able to play anyway.

Sinattle
06-11-2012, 03:54 PM
It's too bad Hakeem wasn't on the original Dream Team he deserves to be there more than half the team.

LA_Raiders
06-11-2012, 03:59 PM
Most PSD userd have short time memory or average 21yrs old... Most love MJ but he was a real *******..

Kobe's has a better personality than Jordan by far.... And LeFlop? is just a dumb clown...

AntiG
06-11-2012, 04:07 PM
It's too bad Hakeem wasn't on the original Dream Team he deserves to be there more than half the team.

wasn't a US citizen yet.

papipapsmanny
06-11-2012, 04:31 PM
yes because Isiah has just lived a very clean nice life hasn't he.

he shouldn't have been a dick pretty simple

netsgiantsyanks
06-11-2012, 04:33 PM
you can get away with being a ******* when you're one of the best players of all time. nobody's perfect anyway.

papipapsmanny
06-11-2012, 04:34 PM
Most PSD userd have short time memory or average 21yrs old... Most love MJ but he was a real *******..

Kobe's has a better personality than Jordan by far.... And LeFlop? is just a dumb clown...

no not really man, Kobe sounds so uneducated (because he probably is). Jordan actually sounded smart plus when you are the best player on the court without question you can kind of act like a dick.

Jordan is Calvin johnson mixed with Ocho Cinco (With his talent and talk)

Where Kobe is like TO a talented dumb****

SteveNash
06-11-2012, 04:35 PM
That is what happens when you walk off the court without congratulating a team for beating you when they themselves did so the previous years when Detroit won.

But you are right I would have had Isiah on it, just not sure in place of whom. Jordan wanted Pippen on the team more than Isiah. And I believe they wanted Stockton with Malone on it. Drexler was on it because of his past 3 seasons. Mullin was on it for outside shooting due to Bird being nearly finished.

So should Bird have been left off the team for not shaking the Pistons hands? Bird should of been left off the team.

And if you're talking about class, Jordan never had any.


I would love to see Thomas one day and ask him, "If Bird was just another guy if black, what are you? Well below average obviously?"

You're oh so transparent.

RaiderLakersA's
06-11-2012, 06:33 PM
This is not news. Everyone knew that Thomas was frozen out. It wasn't a secret.

Hawkeye15
06-11-2012, 06:50 PM
It's too bad Hakeem wasn't on the original Dream Team he deserves to be there more than half the team.

He isn't from the U.S. though.

Hawkeye15
06-11-2012, 06:51 PM
Pippen wasnt yet on his prime.

Worhty should have gotten the respect call like Magic or bird who were on teh decline ( well bird was basically done).


And in any case WILKINS who WAS still prime should have made it over Pippen too.

Pip only made the team because Jordan threatened to not report if he wasnt there.

Worthy didn't hold the weight. Wilkins knee was no bueno at the time. Pippen was going.

fadedmario
06-11-2012, 07:14 PM
Isiah got left off because he wooped all 3's ***. Bad Boys!! Took Jordan years to beat the Pistons, The Pistons ended the Celtics reign as a top flight team, and they swept the Lakers in the finals in Magic's prime.

Yeah, like Isiah or not - he deserved to be on that team over half of the players that were on it.

fadedmario
06-11-2012, 07:19 PM
For all you young cats that only know Isiah as a GM and what you here about him - pound for pound there was no one better than him. He won 2 titles in the Celtics/Lakers/Bulls era. Dude was a flat beast. Google Isiah 16 points in 94 seconds against the Knicks in the playoffs. Actually here it is.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1917974/pistons_playoff_moment_isiah_scores_16_points_in_9 4_seconds/

Isiah was the Pistons greatest player of all-time and it's not even close. I watched him since his rookie year.

championships
06-11-2012, 07:22 PM
Just look at the results.

Obviously they didn't need Isiah.

creamed corn
06-11-2012, 07:25 PM
For all you young cats that only know Isiah as a GM and what you here about him - pound for pound there was no one better than him. He won 2 titles in the Celtics/Lakers/Bulls era. Dude was a flat beast. Google Isiah 16 points in 94 seconds against the Knicks in the playoffs. Actually here it is.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1917974/pistons_playoff_moment_isiah_scores_16_points_in_9 4_seconds/

Isiah was the Pistons greatest player of all-time and it's not even close. I watched him since his rookie year.

don't let AI fans here that. theyll burn effigies of you

fadedmario
06-11-2012, 07:25 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtNi0rj7Zg4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wl9nHZ35Qw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5U0UV4stZI&feature=fvwrel

Here's some Isiah video's for the youngsters on here. Check them out before you make comments like he had no place on the team. That's just pure ignorance.

fadedmario
06-11-2012, 07:26 PM
don't let AI fans here that. theyll burn effigies of you

Isiah was Iverson with the ability to pass the ball. I watched both since their rookie years.

Jayrich28
06-11-2012, 07:27 PM
I would love to see Thomas one day and ask him, "If Bird was just another guy if black, what are you? Well below average obviously?"

I am surprised at u and others....in no way is stockton betta than isiah...what makes u say this isiah is a two time champ what is stockton...who beat mike, bird and magic with no top 5 pf...it wasnt stockton

fadedmario
06-11-2012, 07:27 PM
Just look at the results.

Obviously they didn't need Isiah.

haha - hope you're not serious.

Bruno
06-11-2012, 07:45 PM
Its called media/internet dude. Didn't have it to a tenth of the degree we have it today. In 1991 we aren't seeing video of Kobe crying that they didn't trade his young center for Kidd. One example. Today's available information and speed of it make everyone vulnerable.

zing!

Bruno
06-11-2012, 07:45 PM
this has been known and surprises no one.

KingPosey
06-11-2012, 07:46 PM
Stockton was a btter basketball player than IT at that time.

Jayrich28
06-11-2012, 07:50 PM
Stockton was a btter basketball player than IT at that time.
That u can say maybe ...but ppl on here saying stockton was betta than isiah period need to watch some film

Hawkeye15
06-11-2012, 08:01 PM
Isiah got left off because he wooped all 3's ***. Bad Boys!! Took Jordan years to beat the Pistons, The Pistons ended the Celtics reign as a top flight team, and they swept the Lakers in the finals in Magic's prime.

Yeah, like Isiah or not - he deserved to be on that team over half of the players that were on it.

No, he didn't. Stockton and Magic were better. They didn't need another PG.

Hawkeye15
06-11-2012, 08:02 PM
zing!

shut up! haha. Sorry, it was purely an example on how being a douche is nothing new, just in the past 10 years, and even more so today, if you are high profile, and you do something stupid, chances are its on camera.

creamed corn
06-11-2012, 08:02 PM
That u can say maybe ...but ppl on here saying stockton was betta than isiah period need to watch some film

haha get real dude :facepalm: youre the type of guy who would think ai is better than wade probly.

Hawkeye15
06-11-2012, 08:03 PM
That u can say maybe ...but ppl on here saying stockton was betta than isiah period need to watch some film

Take it from someone who grew up watching both, and understands advanced stats, Thomas can't hold a candle to Stockton.

Hawkeye15
06-11-2012, 08:05 PM
For all you young cats that only know Isiah as a GM and what you here about him - pound for pound there was no one better than him. He won 2 titles in the Celtics/Lakers/Bulls era. Dude was a flat beast. Google Isiah 16 points in 94 seconds against the Knicks in the playoffs. Actually here it is.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1917974/pistons_playoff_moment_isiah_scores_16_points_in_9 4_seconds/

Isiah was the Pistons greatest player of all-time and it's not even close. I watched him since his rookie year.

Just like you won the 2004 title, DEFENSE is the reason, not your PG. Thomas was a great player, top 50, but by no means should anyone be pissed he was left off the team, when the 3 legendary players who didn't want him there all had a say, due to Thomas pissing them off individually with his ridiculous comments and actions.

Hawkeye15
06-11-2012, 08:07 PM
I am surprised at u and others....in no way is stockton betta than isiah...what makes u say this isiah is a two time champ what is stockton...who beat mike, bird and magic with no top 5 pf...it wasnt stockton

oh, a fan who measures by championships...

Team sport bro. Stockton was easily the superior player, even at the time, than Thomas. Did a team full of scorers need a shoot first PG? Nope. Especially when that PG pissed off MJ, Bird, and Magic. Thomas rubbed most players wrong. Is what it is.

Pierzynski4Prez
06-11-2012, 08:08 PM
Hawkeye stop using logic

creamed corn
06-11-2012, 08:09 PM
Hawkeye stop using logic

agreed. he needs less logic, and more facepalms. hes just doing it completely wrong.

KnicksorBust
06-11-2012, 08:26 PM
Isiah hadn't even made an All-NBA team in the last 4 years leading up to dream team selections.

Stockton/Magic consistently making All-NBA 1st/2nd teams from 87-92 while Isiah couldn't even make 3rd team it's first year (1989). Guys like Kevin Johnson, Tim Hardaway, Joe Dumars, and Mark Price all were being selected over Isiah at the time.

OaklandsFinest
06-11-2012, 08:32 PM
Already knew this story.



You know what's ironic? Sorry to bring Kobe into the conversation but I have to. What I find ironic is, the same people that hate Kobe today, would've hated Jordan today. Jordan wasn't exactly Mr. Nice Guy or humble. This leads me to believe that some fans on here are too young to remember that and the fans that are old enough to remember never paid attention to Jordan's personality.

Nope! Never really cared for Kobe, but Mike is the GOAT. Mike never forced a better player our of his city because he had an inferiority complex. Jordan was the ultimate competitor, Kobe is competitive but he turned down a chance to have the greatest dynasty ever over pride and selfishness.

JasonJohnHorn
06-11-2012, 08:33 PM
I would have been happy taking off Laettner or Mullin for Thomas. Magic could play SG and SF and MJ and Drexler could have played SG and SF, so it wouldn't be like they were back logged at PG. Besides, three PGs is a good number of PGs on the team.

I mentioned this in a thread a few weeks ago, and many took issue with it, but I really believe Chris Mullen was out classed by the rest of that roster. He was one of the best SF at the time, but he wasn't in the same catagory at the rest of the HOF roster. Wilkens would have likely gotten Mullen's spot had he not been injured, and for some reason they wanted to include on college player (don't know why?!@?!?!?!?).

Anywho... can't change the past, but that team would have been better with Thomas on the floor, but in all fairness, it seems to be his own trash talking that got him off the roster. He froze out Jordan at that one All-Star game during Jordan's rookie year, and then he had apparently made comments about Magic being homosexual behind his back. That's not cool... though there is no way to know if it was true or not.

Becks2307
06-11-2012, 08:40 PM
Yup. This shouldn't surprise anyone. MJ was far from being the most friendly and likeable guy. Probably a big reason he had such success...but he had many character flaws.

Would have been interesting to watch his career unfold with the much more obtrusive, intense and persistent media...and to see if perception of hin would have been any different. We bash super stars today for such small things....


With that said, Thomas was extremely polarizing, and his competitiveness really rubbed people the wrong way a lot of the time. He was a bit of a punk.

Thing is though Jordan kept winning and in dominant fashion, regardless of all these character flaws he won, people would have loved that.

I could see countless debates if jordan was playing now where its argued that Lebron should have Jordan's killer instinct, and how he is too nice same way they compare him to kobe now. Remember too Jordan wasn't involved in a rape case, I think he would have been fine.

fadedmario
06-11-2012, 08:43 PM
Take it from someone who grew up watching both, and understands advanced stats, Thomas can't hold a candle to Stockton.

That's your opinion. I also grew up watching both and all Stockton did was feed Malone.

My opinion -

Isiah >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stockton (especially at the time of the dream team) and it's not even close.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
06-11-2012, 08:45 PM
Even though his opinion has been proven right and non-biased...

Hellcrooner
06-11-2012, 08:45 PM
Take it from someone who grew up watching both, and understands advanced stats, Thomas can't hold a candle to Stockton.

in 2012 after their FINISHED careers?

probably ( altough thomas lead the team to two titles BEATING the CRAP OUT OF JORDAN TO DEATH until they were to old to go on doing it)

At their 1992 point of their careers? Thomas > stockton

Hawkeye15
06-11-2012, 08:47 PM
That's your opinion. I also grew up watching both and all Stockton did was feed Malone.

My opinion -

Isiah >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stockton (especially at the time of the dream team) and it's not even close.

You need to start your posts with you are a complete homer for Detroit teams though. And you and I get along here, I am simply saying that to give you a pass with that opinion brother.

Stockton was a much better player. More durable, better PG, better defender, longer prime, pretty much everything, outside catching a small time frame where the Magic/Bird era was dying and old, and the MJ era wasn't ready. No slight to those championships, but the Detroit defense, allowed under the old rules, was amazing, and far more responsible for those rings than anything on the other end.

Hellcrooner
06-11-2012, 08:48 PM
btw Isaiah is the only one who can say that the team that he led beat the crap out of Bird, Magic and Jordan in their primes.

Magic only beat Bird (and thomas)
Bird only beat Jordan and Magic
Jordan .............only beat any of the three when they were OUT of their primes.

Hawkeye15
06-11-2012, 08:50 PM
in 2012 after their FINISHED careers?

probably ( altough thomas lead the team to two titles BEATING the CRAP OUT OF JORDAN TO DEATH until they were to old to go on doing it)

At their 1992 point of their careers? Thomas > stockton

A prime Thomas with a much better team around him beating a still growing Jordan. Huh.

Last statement isn't true at all.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=thomais01&y1=1992&p2=stockjo01&y2=1992

Stockton>Thomas. 2nd year straight.

JordansBulls
06-11-2012, 08:51 PM
in 2012 after their FINISHED careers?

probably ( altough thomas lead the team to two titles BEATING the CRAP OUT OF JORDAN TO DEATH until they were to old to go on doing it)

At their 1992 point of their careers? Thomas > stockton

Isiah didn't do **** to beat Jordan. Jordan outplayed each and everyone on the Pistons. The Pistons were just too deep. Not to mention MJ actually swept them when they were 2x defending champions. Love when someone says a team was too old when they just had won back to back titles. You act like they lost in round 1 one year and then the next played the Bulls. MJ ended them.

As far as the question it is about timing as well. In 1988 you would have no argument as to who would be on the team.
But would you really put Kareem on the team in 1988 as old as he was?

Hawkeye15
06-11-2012, 08:52 PM
btw Isaiah is the only one who can say that the team that he led beat the crap out of Bird, Magic and Jordan in their primes.

Magic only beat Bird (and thomas)
Bird only beat Jordan and Magic
Jordan .............only beat any of the three when they were OUT of their primes.


Bird's prime? Nope. Jordan? Meh.

Are you now doing the whole team success thing over individuals when you rate.

JordansBulls
06-11-2012, 08:52 PM
btw Isaiah is the only one who can say that the team that he led beat the crap out of Bird, Magic and Jordan in their primes.

Magic only beat Bird (and thomas)
Bird only beat Jordan and Magic
Jordan .............only beat any of the three when they were OUT of their primes.
Bird beat a 2nd year Jordan who was coming off an injury. And beat a 3rd year Jordan who was the 8th seed. None of them beat Jordan when Jordan had a decent team. Jordan ended Isiah and beat Magic who was 2nd in MVP voting.
Kevin Johnson beat a prime Magic. Ralph Sampson beat a prime Magic. And both did so when Magic had HCA.

D Roses Bulls
06-11-2012, 08:55 PM
I know it wasn't just Jordan who had a hand in this, by the way hawkeye, Pippen was supposedly in that snub of Thomas as well, but why are people going after Jordan? It was thomas along with others but mainly thomas who had the freeze out in Jordan's first all star game. pay back is a ***** if you ask me.

Jayrich28
06-11-2012, 08:56 PM
oh, a fan who measures by championships...
Team sport bro. Stockton was easily the superior player, even at the time, than Thomas. Did a team full of scorers need a shoot first PG? Nope. Especially when that PG pissed off MJ, Bird, and Magic. Thomas rubbed most players wrong. Is what it is.

thats ludacris isiah led team thru playoffs against way tougher competition...stockton had malone and was always the robin ....
If jordan had just # with no rings he wouldnt be the goat...its aint about championships...u guys need to realize u have to be a star then comes all star, then champion then legend and stockton could not lead detroit to any rings if they traded places

D Roses Bulls
06-11-2012, 08:56 PM
Bird beat a 2nd year Jordan who was coming off an injury. And beat a 3rd year Jordan who was the 8th seed. None of them beat Jordan when Jordan had a decent team. Jordan ended Isiah and beat Magic who was 2nd in MVP voting.
Kevin Johnson beat a prime Magic. Ralph Sampson beat a prime Magic. And both did so when Magic had HCA.

exactly and it was bird who said and im quoting from memory after his 63 point game against the celtics "it was god disguised as michael jordan, I never thought anyone could do that to the boston celtics".

Hawkeye15
06-11-2012, 08:58 PM
thats ludacris isiah led team thru playoffs against way tougher competition...stockton had malone and was always the robin ....
If jordan had just # with no rings he wouldnt be the goat...its aint about championships...u guys need to realize u have to be a star then comes all star, then champion then legend and stockton could not lead detroit to any rings if they traded places

Thomas led? He was part of the team, he wasn't an impressive standout outside periods of time. Great player, but cmon man, we are talking about a player with a career PER of 18.1, and offensive rating of 105. Really? That is eilte?

I do like your progression path of awesomeness, something I don't agree with however.

Hawkeye15
06-11-2012, 08:58 PM
exactly and it was bird who said and im quoting from memory after his 63 point game against the celtic "it was god disguised as michael jordan, I never thought anyone could do that to the boston celtics".

"God in basketball shoes" I believe.

fadedmario
06-11-2012, 09:04 PM
You need to start your posts with you are a complete homer for Detroit teams though. And you and I get along here, I am simply saying that to give you a pass with that opinion brother.

Stockton was a much better player. More durable, better PG, better defender, longer prime, pretty much everything, outside catching a small time frame where the Magic/Bird era was dying and old, and the MJ era wasn't ready. No slight to those championships, but the Detroit defense, allowed under the old rules, was amazing, and far more responsible for those rings than anything on the other end.

Even if I wasn't a Detroit fan - I'd still take Isiah in a game 7 over Stockton. I respect your opinion though bro.

Also - the Bird/Magic era wasn't old. The Pistons just ended it. Jordan was getting beat when he was ready. He just got beat for awhile. Isiah wasn't just part of the team - he is the best Detroit Piston of all time. Any Detroit fan knows this.

pd1dish
06-11-2012, 09:10 PM
Where's all this random Jordan bashing coming from? I guess ppl on this site just need reasons to ***** and complain about someone. This includes all the worthless posters starting bash threads about Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Rose etc. just leave it alone but I know it's asking too much.

fadedmario
06-11-2012, 09:13 PM
Thomas led? He was part of the team, he wasn't an impressive standout outside periods of time. Great player, but cmon man, we are talking about a player with a career PER of 18.1, and offensive rating of 105. Really? That is eilte?

I do like your progression path of awesomeness, something I don't agree with however.

Advanced stats don't tell the whole story. This isn't baseball and even in baseball they are severely flawed. They don't tell that a player scores 25 points in the finals in one quarter on one leg. He had the heart of a Lion. \

A more efficient stat line didn't win Stockton a ring, did it?

Isiah was a winner, Stockton wasn't.

In basketball, that does matter - this is not baseball. Same rules don't apply.

If the NBA was all about stats - Wilt Chamberlain would be considered the greatest of all-time.

He's not. Jordan is, guess why?

JMClarkent
06-11-2012, 09:17 PM
Stockton.





You, sir, are fired.

JordansBulls
06-11-2012, 09:28 PM
If the NBA was all about stats - Wilt Chamberlain would be considered the greatest of all-time.

He's not. Jordan is, guess why?

Everyone makes this comment, but it isn't true. Jordan has more 50+ point, 40+ point and 30+ point games in the playoffs than Wilt. Not to mention West and Baylor have more 40+ and 30+ point games than Wilt despite playing less playoff games than him.

Jordan also is #1 all time in PER in the season and playoffs and #1 all time in WS/PER 48 minutes in the season and playoffs.

I agree that Isiah was better than Stockton overall careerwise, but in 1992 he was not. Just like Worthy in 1992 was not better than Scottie.
When putting together a dream team you want some guys in there primes already. They already had Magic who didn't play that season on the team and Bird who was retiring on it. Thus the reason to have the young bloods of Stockton and Pippen on it over Worthy and Isiah.
Now if this were 1988 it would be a totally different story.

Hawkeye15
06-11-2012, 09:29 PM
Even if I wasn't a Detroit fan - I'd still take Isiah in a game 7 over Stockton. I respect your opinion though bro.

Also - the Bird/Magic era wasn't old. The Pistons just ended it. Jordan was getting beat when he was ready. He just got beat for awhile. Isiah wasn't just part of the team - he is the best Detroit Piston of all time. Any Detroit fan knows this.

Yes, it was old. They may not have been, though Bird's back issues are well chronicled from 1988 on, and Magic's roster got old as hell, but MJ wiped Detroit away once he entered his peak, and the Pistons got through teams with suffocating defense.

You are being a homer. Stockton is better. Period.

fadedmario
06-11-2012, 09:35 PM
Yes, it was old. They may not have been, though Bird's back issues are well chronicled from 1988 on, and Magic's roster got old as hell, but MJ wiped Detroit away once he entered his peak, and the Pistons got through teams with suffocating defense.

You are being a homer. Stockton is better. Period.

I absolutely disagree. I'm not the only one on here that feels this way either. This is just your opinion. Stockton was not even the best player on his team.

Jayrich28
06-11-2012, 09:35 PM
Thomas led? He was part of the team, he wasn't an impressive standout outside periods of time. Great player, but cmon man, we are talking about a player with a career PER of 18.1, and offensive rating of 105. Really? That is eilte?

I do like your progression path of awesomeness, something I don't agree with however.

Isiah was the leader if that wasnt the case he wouldnt even be though of as being a possible member of the dream team ....what other piston had that privilege?

And that is the path to success...thats y guys like,horry,kerr,fisher,salley, anybody on the sixty celtics bench arent in the argument...guys getting rings as part of the team..but when u r mvp of the finals all star , all team memebers then rings seperate u from the elite ..y play if u not playing for rings ...lebron is incomplete cuz he lacks rings malone and barkley r behind duncan cuz of that .....

fadedmario
06-11-2012, 09:49 PM
Jan Hubbard (NBA columnist for Newsday):
Stockton broke a bone in his leg, and it healed very quickly. But initially they were going to replace him, and it was going to be Joe Dumars. So Isiah wasn’t even going to be the first substitute.

DaBUU
06-11-2012, 09:54 PM
I think you are the punk ***** ***** for being a Jordan fanboy on his jock.

Neither you now nor Jordan back then can keep your emotional-ness out of it.

was i talking to you, chill out Debbie. Thomas was a punk then and a punk now, how many times to you want me to say it? What he did to Mike and the Bulls was classless and shameful on multiple occasions, but you're probably 14 so wouldnt know. What am I even doing answering back to a diehard (lmao) Heat fan like you.

Jayrich28
06-11-2012, 09:54 PM
Jan Hubbard (NBA columnist for Newsday):

Thats cuz people personal feelings get in the way of reality isiah has alot of haters but dont say dudes that arent betta are....lbj haters do thi....im not a fan of them but I know these guys r ballers

Jayrich28
06-11-2012, 10:27 PM
Yall funny on here...isiah played 12 yrs to 19 for stockton
Isiah made all star team 11 times to stockton 10
Isiah 1 mvp 2 titles and 2 all star mvps
Stockton 0
Isiah had 18k points 9k assist
Stockton 19k points 15k assist
Isiah 19/9
Stockton 14/10 career avgs.

Isiah betta game dont lie ....smh

fadedmario
06-11-2012, 10:32 PM
Agree.

ztilzer31
06-11-2012, 10:45 PM
Good, he was and still is a punk ***** B****, he didnt deserve to be on that team. Glad The GOAT said nope.

Lebron was on the Dream Team? I didn't know that...

Wade>You
06-11-2012, 10:53 PM
Just imagine how these guys would've treated Kobe, knowing that Kobe would never pass the ball up. He'd never get an invite (not like it matters, because Kobe spent a good portion of his career without volunteering to play for the Olympics).

utahjazzno12fan
06-11-2012, 11:04 PM
For all you young cats that only know Isiah as a GM and what you here about him - pound for pound there was no one better than him. He won 2 titles in the Celtics/Lakers/Bulls era. Dude was a flat beast. Google Isiah 16 points in 94 seconds against the Knicks in the playoffs. Actually here it is.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1917974/pistons_playoff_moment_isiah_scores_16_points_in_9 4_seconds/

Isiah was the Pistons greatest player of all-time and it's not even close. I watched him since his rookie year.

According to my research Isiah weighed 180 lbs. Stockton weighed 170 lbs. Since Stockton was better than Isiah, I would guess that would mean Stockton was better pound for pound as well.

utahjazzno12fan
06-11-2012, 11:34 PM
Stockton played more seasons beyond his prime. Isiah got out soon after his prime. This would mean Stockton's stats would be watered down somewhat.

Stockton shot .515 FG% for his career to Isiah's .452. From 3, Stockton shot .384 to Isiah's .290. Stockton was .826 at the ft line while Isiah was .759. So Stockton was the better shooter.

Stockton also averaged 10.5 assists while Isiah had 9.3. Stockton averaged 2.2 steals per game to Isiah's 1.9. Stockton averaged 2.8 turnovers a game while Isiah turned it over 3.8 per game.

Playoffs: Stockton .473 FG, .326 3P, .810 FT, 10.1 assists, 1.9 steals, 2.8 turnovers
Isiah . 441 FG, .346 3P, .769 FT, 8.9 assists, 2.1 steals, 3.3 turnovers

Stockton is also the all-time leader in steals by 700 steals and assists by 4000.

Jayrich28
06-11-2012, 11:43 PM
And thats y his totals r higher but isiah win cuz he has trophies at home stockton has that bitter taste of defeat

utahjazzno12fan
06-11-2012, 11:49 PM
Let me explain averages. If you only play during your prime, your averages would be higher than if you played beyond your prime when you weren't at the top of your game. These are averages. Playing longer actually hurts your averages. If I am averaging 15 assists per game for 10 years and play 10 more years averaging 5, my overall average would be 10. Whereas someone may play 10 years at their best and average 10. Averaging 10 for the longer time is more impressive.

Jordan had better averages than when he came back with the Wizards. Those Wizards stats hurt his overall averages.

I quoted strictly averages and percentages. All of this should be tilted somewhat to Isiah as he didn't play as long outside of his prime.

fadedmario
06-11-2012, 11:57 PM
According to my research Isiah weighed 180 lbs. Stockton weighed 170 lbs. Since Stockton was better than Isiah, I would guess that would mean Stockton was better pound for pound as well.

No he wasn't. Stockton was a choke artist.

SteveNash
06-12-2012, 12:03 AM
Isiah didn't do **** to beat Jordan. Jordan outplayed each and everyone on the Pistons. The Pistons were just too deep. Not to mention MJ actually swept them when they were 2x defending champions. Love when someone says a team was too old when they just had won back to back titles. You act like they lost in round 1 one year and then the next played the Bulls. MJ ended them.

As far as the question it is about timing as well. In 1988 you would have no argument as to who would be on the team.
But would you really put Kareem on the team in 1988 as old as he was?

One people seem to forget is the leadership Thomas displayed. Besides a tiff with Dantley, the team always rallied around him, something Stockton could never do, and the main reason why he never won anything.

JB, those Bulls eliminating the Pistons is equivalent to the Thunder sweeping the Mavs. Jordan never beat a truly great team. Never got a true shot at prime Magic Lakers. Got dominated by Bird Celtics, but used didn't have the teammate excuse. Got dominated by Isiah Pistons had to wait until they were old and injured to get past them. Jordan is still bitter about Isiah getting the better of him and he needs to let it go.

utahjazzno12fan
06-12-2012, 12:05 AM
Use some facts to back up what you are saying and don't just say the rings mean that he was better than Stockton unless you are willing to say John Salley was better than Larry Bird since Salley won 4 rings to Bird's 3.

Jayrich28
06-12-2012, 12:05 AM
This is like don nelson and brett favre if u play forever ur totals will be higher..
Thats y favre has most tds and int record but he is not montana,brady,etc
Nelson...all time wins leader but he aint no phil jack

Hawkeye15
06-12-2012, 12:09 AM
Advanced stats don't tell the whole story. This isn't baseball and even in baseball they are severely flawed. They don't tell that a player scores 25 points in the finals in one quarter on one leg. He had the heart of a Lion. \

A more efficient stat line didn't win Stockton a ring, did it?

Isiah was a winner, Stockton wasn't.

In basketball, that does matter - this is not baseball. Same rules don't apply.

If the NBA was all about stats - Wilt Chamberlain would be considered the greatest of all-time.

He's not. Jordan is, guess why?

Advanced stats don't favor your argument, I get it.

Heroic argument.

All of a sudden, when protecting your guy, you change tune and pull out team accomplishments, something you never do.

No, evaluation applies no matter.

Cause Jordan had better stats? And was just better?

Jayrich28
06-12-2012, 12:09 AM
Use some facts to back up what you are saying and don't just say the rings mean that he was better than Stockton unless you are willing to say John Salley was better than Larry Bird since Salley won 4 rings to Bird's 3.

I gave u # read the thread

Hawkeye15
06-12-2012, 12:11 AM
Isiah was the leader if that wasnt the case he wouldnt even be though of as being a possible member of the dream team ....what other piston had that privilege?

And that is the path to success...thats y guys like,horry,kerr,fisher,salley, anybody on the sixty celtics bench arent in the argument...guys getting rings as part of the team..but when u r mvp of the finals all star , all team memebers then rings seperate u from the elite ..y play if u not playing for rings ...lebron is incomplete cuz he lacks rings malone and barkley r behind duncan cuz of that .....

No, it was your path, not mine bro.

Hawkeye15
06-12-2012, 12:13 AM
I gave u # read the thread

You couldn't give a # that put Thomas over Stockton if you tried, unless you pull out team accomplishments, therefore your argument dies.

surf and turf
06-12-2012, 12:13 AM
Im not sure about all the advanced stats but I watched both of these guys play their entire careers and its a real close call between Isiah and Stockton. Real close. Im not sure who I would take. Probably Stockton but not by a landslide.

Hawkeye15
06-12-2012, 12:14 AM
Im not sure about all the advanced stats but I watched both of these guys play their entire careers and its a real close call between Isiah and Stockton. Real close. Im not sure who I would take. Probably Stockton but not by a landslide.

me too. I prefer the FAR better passer and offensive operator, and the better defensive player who disrupts passing lanes without getting burned.

Jayrich28
06-12-2012, 12:15 AM
No, it was your path, not mine bro.

What is urs then cuz obviously it somehow puts stockton ahead of isiah,i guess nash is above kidd too?

Hawkeye15
06-12-2012, 12:17 AM
What is urs then cuz obviously it somehow puts stockton ahead of isiah,i guess nash is above kidd too?

you just named 3 PG's better than Thomas. That is my evaluation.

Jayrich28
06-12-2012, 12:22 AM
You couldn't give a # that put Thomas over Stockton if you tried, unless you pull out team accomplishments, therefore your argument dies.

I did already isiah better career betta playoffs ...avg 20 and 13 in same season 2 mvp all star game 1 finals mvp 2 rings 11all star games what was stockton doing when isiah was winnig rings at home

utahjazzno12fan
06-12-2012, 12:29 AM
Yall funny on here...isiah played 12 yrs to 19 for stockton
Isiah made all star team 11 times to stockton 10
Isiah 1 mvp 2 titles and 2 all star mvps
Stockton 0
Isiah had 18k points 9k assist
Stockton 19k points 15k assist
Isiah 19/9
Stockton 14/10 career avgs.

Isiah betta game dont lie ....smh

I posted stats that were based on averages and percentages. Those don't get better when you play longer. They diminsh. You simply pointed out 1 MVP to 0 MVPs. That is the only thing of consequence that does anything in favor of Isiah to Stockton... Except for one thing. Isiah never won an MVP. He did win the 2 all star mvps. Stockton also won in 92-93, the year following the Dream Team.

Jayrich28
06-12-2012, 12:34 AM
1 finals mvp dude. U know when u win and r the best player of the series

utahjazzno12fan
06-12-2012, 12:36 AM
Thomas did win a Finals MVP which goes to a player who won the championship. Stockton won none and so he was not going to win the Finals MVP. Stockton did put up better numbers (averages and percentages so don't say he played longer-- it does not help a percentage or average).

Once Jordan hit his prime with the Bulls in the 90-91 season, Isiah won just as many championships. Had he not got his earlier, he would have not gotten one either. Put Stockton with the Pistons, earlier, they win the championship as well. Look at the team around Stockton. Outside of Malone, they were no where near as good as the Bulls. Take Stockton off the Jazz and you don't get to the WCF, let alone the NBA Finals.

utahjazzno12fan
06-12-2012, 12:38 AM
Finals MVP means best player for one series. We are talking about who was the best for the career.

John Salley won 4 championships. Is he better than Larry Bird who won only 3? Is he as good as Karl Malone who won 0?

Hawkeye15
06-12-2012, 12:45 AM
I did already isiah better career betta playoffs ...avg 20 and 13 in same season 2 mvp all star game 1 finals mvp 2 rings 11all star games what was stockton doing when isiah was winnig rings at home

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=thomais01&y1=1994&p2=stockjo01&y2=2003

I don't expect you to understand that. But imagine if Stocktons body didn't allow him to play an extra 8 years (sing of durability), and he still outperformed Thomas.

I get it, you think Detroits rings win the argument. its beyond weak. Thomas slipped in right between the Bird/Magic era, and when MJ took over.

We are done.

Jayrich28
06-12-2012, 12:45 AM
Lol isiah brought the pistons up they were garbage b4 they drafted him stockton was behind malone..malone took them to the finals and he also lost them it as well...stockton couldnt win with detroit when has he ever taken over the game....isiah clutchness was far better than stockton

Gators123
06-12-2012, 12:49 AM
If we are going by only advanced stats then Zeke isn't even the best PG in Pistons history. And thats not true.

Jayrich28
06-12-2012, 12:50 AM
Isiah would dog stockton head to head and team accomplishments arent conparable......stockton wasnt even the best player on utah

Jayrich28
06-12-2012, 12:56 AM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=thomais01&y1=1994&p2=stockjo01&y2=2003

I don't expect you to understand that. But imagine if Stocktons body didn't allow him to play an extra 8 years (sing of durability), and he still outperformed Thomas.

I get it, you think Detroits rings win the argument. its beyond weak. Thomas slipped in right between the Bird/Magic era, and when MJ took over.

We are done.

U make it seem as if isiah had and top pf on his team and played with a dominant big...stockton was in the league win isiah won why didnt he win or make the fibals while isiah was in the league....y was magic his only peer when it came to pgs then

utahjazzno12fan
06-12-2012, 01:06 AM
Fine. We will play your game. The Utah Jazz made the play-offs every single season from 1984-85 through 2002-03, John Stockton's years with Utah.

The Detroit Pistons made the play-offs from 1981-82 (Isiah's first year)... oh nevermind. They didn't. They missed out during 82-83 too. They did make it 1983-84 (his 3rd year) through 1991-92 (his 11th). They missed the last 2 years of his career, making it 9 out of 13 while Stockton made it 19 out of 19 years.

utahjazzno12fan
06-12-2012, 01:13 AM
Isiah would dog stockton head to head and team accomplishments arent conparable......stockton wasnt even the best player on utah

Saying Stockton wasn't the best player in Utah means nothing. We are comparing Stockton v. Isiah, not Stockton v. Malone.

Montana won the Big Sky football conference this past season. Alabama or LSU, one, was not the best team in the SEC this year. Are you going to say Montana is better than one of those two because one is not the best in the SEC?

Obviously Utah was better than Detroit for several of the seasons Isiah was in Detroit. What is to keep them from having two players better than Isiah?

The reason Stockton has no rings is that while Stockton was better than Isiah for much of his career, Michael Jordan was better than Karl and Stockton from 91 on.

utahjazzno12fan
06-12-2012, 01:23 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbqdxlZr4_0

Randy West
06-12-2012, 01:48 AM
When a whole lot of people don't like you it is probably deserved. Jordan, Bird, Magic all those cats were like "we don't want Isiah around" team USA was like "OK, no problem at all".

Isiah wouldn't have added anything to that team with those particular players performance wise. It actually might have been a more abrasive, toxic situation had he been on the team. That would have been much worse for the whole teams morale so you almost have to leave the guy home.

NSJ
06-12-2012, 02:23 AM
Saying Stockton wasn't the best player in Utah means nothing. We are comparing Stockton v. Isiah, not Stockton v. Malone.

Montana won the Big Sky football conference this past season. Alabama or LSU, one, was not the best team in the SEC this year. Are you going to say Montana is better than one of those two because one is not the best in the SEC?

Obviously Utah was better than Detroit for several of the seasons Isiah was in Detroit. What is to keep them from having two players better than Isiah?

The reason Stockton has no rings is that while Stockton was better than Isiah for much of his career, Michael Jordan was better than Karl and Stockton from 91 on.

Couldn't have said it better

Jayrich28
06-12-2012, 07:19 AM
Couldn't have said it better

Um what?

Why dont u go look at some history stockton didnt even start the 1st few yrs...isiah was the second pick on a bad team....his detroit teams was way betta when he got there...

Which is it stockton team wasnt deep as detroit one minute then the next they are superior yet they cant win in the 80s or 90s......stockton didnt even reach the finals until 14years in...this advance stat mess means nothing to who was betta there performance on the court does ...stockton was never isiahs peer.....

BigCityofDreams
06-12-2012, 07:37 AM
Why would Magic keep Isaiah off the Olgmpic team when the two were embracing and kissing like crazy in the 92 Orlando All Star Game just months earlier? I think Isiah calling Magic gay was just another nasty false rumor. MJ is a douche, we all know this, stop defending him JordanBulls. Yes, he is the GOAT, but don't shove aside His *******-ness when he used to abuse and berate teammates in practice, left Isaiah off the Olympic team, the gambling issues and Stern trying to cover his *** in the mid 90s, him sleeping around with women like all NBA players do but never getting called out on it and always looked upon as a role model. So what if Isiah didn't shake MJ's hand in 87. What? If Dwight were playing in this summer's olympics, should he have told Colangelo to leave LeBron off the team because LeBron didn't shake his hand after the 09 ECF? :confused: Who the hell is MJ to leave other people off the team? He wasn't even the guy that had the most titles on that Olympic team. That honor belonged to Magic and Larry ahead of MJ.

Maybe it was just for show

time4change
06-12-2012, 08:20 AM
from ESPN's show on The Dream Team. Isiah deserved to be on that team more than just about everyone other than Larry and Magic at the time.

Everyone loves Jordan, but the guy is an a hole. His Hall of Fame Speech said everything anyone needed to know about the guy.



Do you think Isiah should have played on the team?

Exactly what did Jordan say in his HOF speech that you think warrants a thread?


I just listened to the entire speech and heard nothing wrong. Sure he hated on some of the Brass from the Bulls but other then that what?

The first thing he does is show appreciation to his teammates.

So what he didn't name Isiah when belonging to that "class" of players, so what!

It's Michael Jordan apparently your too young to remember Jordan was a god and he earned the right to say what he wants about anyone in terms of basketball.

Maybe he just didn't respect the way Isiah handled his ****. IDK but it's his call.

JordansBulls
06-12-2012, 08:36 AM
One people seem to forget is the leadership Thomas displayed. Besides a tiff with Dantley, the team always rallied around him, something Stockton could never do, and the main reason why he never won anything.

JB, those Bulls eliminating the Pistons is equivalent to the Thunder sweeping the Mavs. Jordan never beat a truly great team. Never got a true shot at prime Magic Lakers. Got dominated by Bird Celtics, but used didn't have the teammate excuse. Got dominated by Isiah Pistons had to wait until they were old and injured to get past them. Jordan is still bitter about Isiah getting the better of him and he needs to let it go.

no it is not not even close either, Bulls dominated them and ended them. Pistons team from 1990 to 1991 was the same. Love how people say a team got old when they lost the next year after winning titles.
Bulls got dominated by the Celtics the year Jordan broke his foot and his 3rd season as the 8th seed.
Celtics beat the Bulls when the Bulls were the #8 seed. You are acting like the C's were the top seed and the Bulls were the #3 or #4 seed or something.
Prime Bird never won a series without HCA and lost to Ewing's Knicks when Bird had HCA something that never happened with MJ.
Bird also had an allstar every single year he was in the league on his teams and even had a player who won finals mvp over him.

"Early on, people were saying Michael Jordan didn't have a team mentality. That was because he didn't have a team."- Larry Bird, When the Game Was Ours


Edit: BTW Isiah shot 40% in 1988, 39% in 1989, 40% in 1990, 41% in 1991 vs the Bulls.
In 1990 the year Isiah won finals MVP he finished 4th in Total Win Shares on his team behind Laimbeer, Dumars and Rodman. In fact he finished 4th in win shares in 1989 as well. While Zeke won titles his team was probably the most balanced team ever. How does a guy get most of the credit for carrying his team when he finishes 4th in Win Shares?

Jayrich28
06-12-2012, 09:23 AM
no it is not not even close either, Bulls dominated them and ended them. Pistons team from 1990 to 1991 was the same. Love how people say a team got old when they lost the next year after winning titles.
Bulls got dominated by the Celtics the year Jordan broke his foot and his 3rd season as the 8th seed.
Celtics beat the Bulls when the Bulls were the #8 seed. You are acting like the C's were the top seed and the Bulls were the #3 or #4 seed or something.
Prime Bird never won a series without HCA and lost to Ewing's Knicks when Bird had HCA something that never happened with MJ.
Bird also had an allstar every single year he was in the league on his teams and even had a player who won finals mvp over him.

"Early on, people were saying Michael Jordan didn't have a team mentality. That was because he didn't have a team."- Larry Bird, When the Game Was Ours


Edit: BTW Isiah shot 40% in 1988, 39% in 1989, 40% in 1990, 41% in 1991 vs the Bulls.
In 1990 the year Isiah won finals MVP he finished 4th in Total Win Shares on his team behind Laimbeer, Dumars and Rodman. In fact he finished 4th in win shares in 1989 as well. While Zeke won titles his team was probably the most balanced team ever. How does a guy get most of the credit for carrying his team when he finishes 4th in Win Shares?

Win shares what in the hell r u saying........isiah is the pistons leading scorer,assist man and steals leader ....u guys sound like hollinger with all this win shares and advance stats **** ....these things didnt even exist when these guys played.
Stockton never avg 20 a game but isiah avg 14 ast in a yr.
The most balance team ever he made them that.....stockton did what with malone....malone is way betta than any of isiah teammates

thenaj17
06-12-2012, 09:46 AM
I don't think Isiah's declining game had anything to do with it at all. Isiah being on the roster would've truly made it what the team was --- The Dream Team. Whether his game was there or not - on paper - it would've fit the bill.

How much court time would he have gotten with Magic and Jordan taking up the guard spots and Bird/Pippen at SF?

Vinylman
06-12-2012, 10:57 AM
btw Isaiah is the only one who can say that the team that he led beat the crap out of Bird, Magic and Jordan in their primes.

Magic only beat Bird (and thomas)
Bird only beat Jordan and Magic
Jordan .............only beat any of the three when they were OUT of their primes.

When did Isiah beat the crap out of Magic?

In 1989 when the Lakers swept the west 12-0 and then byron scott got injured before game one and then magic went down in game 2 with a hammy? With a 42 year old KAJ who retired after the series

Crooner spinning history as usual...

Maybe you can tell us some more fairy tales :facepalm:

Chronz
06-12-2012, 11:33 AM
Did you see the show before it came out?

Chronz
06-12-2012, 11:56 AM
no it is not not even close either, Bulls dominated them and ended them. Pistons team from 1990 to 1991 was the same.
How come their SRS suffered so much? I can get behind a few spots dropping if the team was saving itself for the playoffs but Isiah got worse.


Edit: BTW Isiah shot 40% in 1988, 39% in 1989, 40% in 1990, 41% in 1991 vs the Bulls.In 1990 the year Isiah won finals MVP he finished 4th in Total Win Shares on his team behind Laimbeer, Dumars and Rodman. In fact he finished 4th in win shares in 1989 as well.
During that same period this was his offensive RTG/WS48
1988: 108/.124
1989: 106/.115
1990: 104/.107
1991: 103/.098

As for your 2nd point, check out who led the team in WinShares boost come playoff time. Regular season production isnt what made him great, it was the post season that he made his name. Thats where the true difference in his play is apparent.

Playoff Off.RTG/WS
1988: 108/.159
1989: 106/.135
1990: 113/.194
1991: 105/.054

Playoff PER:
1988: 20.7
1989: 18.6
1990: 21.0
1991: 15.0 (league average)


Looks like a pretty visible decline to me. How can you say the team was the same when its most valuable player was clearly not?




While Zeke won titles his team was probably the most balanced team ever. How does a guy get most of the credit for carrying his team when he finishes 4th in Win Shares?
Im with you that his team is underrated, IMO hes not like Magic leading his team to the title even tho Magic had talented teammates as well. But he was a better playoff performer than regular season guy at that point.

Chronz
06-12-2012, 11:58 AM
Win shares what in the hell r u saying........isiah is the pistons leading scorer,assist man and steals leader ....u guys sound like hollinger with all this win shares and advance stats **** ....these things didnt even exist when these guys played.

What makes you say that? Because you didnt know about them doesnt mean they didnt exist. We just didnt have internet to make everything so widespread.

Pierzynski4Prez
06-12-2012, 12:01 PM
Win shares what in the hell r u saying........isiah is the pistons leading scorer,assist man and steals leader ....u guys sound like hollinger with all this win shares and advance stats **** ....these things didnt even exist when these guys played.
Stockton never avg 20 a game but isiah avg 14 ast in a yr.
The most balance team ever he made them that.....stockton did what with malone....malone is way betta than any of isiah teammates

It's very hard to read through your posts as they mostly don't make sense, and after what is bolded, I'm just going to take it as you have never even glanced at Stockton's numbers (which confuses me as to why you're even still in this argument). Stockton averaged about 14 apg for about 5 years straight, to Thomas's 1 year of 14apg. That was also his only season above 11 where as Stockton has 9 seasons above 11apg. Sure Isiah scored more, he also took plenty more shots and never shot a higher % than Stockton in any season.

madvillian9
06-12-2012, 05:37 PM
Win shares what in the hell r u saying........isiah is the pistons leading scorer,assist man and steals leader ....u guys sound like hollinger with all this win shares and advance stats **** ....these things didnt even exist when these guys played.
Stockton never avg 20 a game but isiah avg 14 ast in a yr.
The most balance team ever he made them that.....stockton did what with malone....malone is way betta than any of isiah teammates

not that you haven't before this post but the bold clearly indicates that you have no clue what you are talking about.

Fritters54
06-12-2012, 05:59 PM
That segment was awesome.

I think it would be cool to hear from Isiah's point of view.

Did he even want to give up his vacation to play? I'm assuming the feeling was mutual, and perhaps his dislike for the other players made the decision to leave him off team simple.

Also, I never knew that Jordan & Pippen wanted to embarrass Kukoc. That part was pretty funny, in hindsight.

Jayrich28
06-12-2012, 08:18 PM
It's very hard to read through your posts as they mostly don't make sense, and after what is bolded, I'm just going to take it as you have never even glanced at Stockton's numbers (which confuses me as to why you're even still in this argument). Stockton averaged about 14 apg for about 5 years straight, to Thomas's 1 year of 14apg. That was also his only season above 11 where as Stockton has 9 seasons above 11apg. Sure Isiah scored more, he also took plenty more shots and ever shot a higher % than Stockton in any season.

Dude u sound crazy stockton did nothing compared to isiah.
I gave u the numbers already stockton wasnt dominating games or taking over playoff series .
You say stockton shot better than isiah and? What does that mean.
Isiah won rings, and mvps...then u say stockton avg over 10 ast good isiah did it and still avg 20 pts big deal....how many fourth qtr take overs has stockton had or defining moments....isiah has plenty.
Then lastly u say magic carried the lakers like he didnt have multiple hof playing witg him..who was zeke playing with of james worthy ,kareem, skill level...come on isiah was the man when he had to be plain and simple

Jayrich28
06-12-2012, 08:25 PM
not that you haven't before this post but the bold clearly indicates that you have no clue what you are talking about.

Dude who cares win shares dont mean ****....watch some basketball stockton didnt win cuz he wasnt good enough and dont blame mike he had 17 other yrs to win one who stop him then

D Roses Bulls
06-12-2012, 09:05 PM
How come their SRS suffered so much? I can get behind a few spots dropping if the team was saving itself for the playoffs but Isiah got worse.


During that same period this was his offensive RTG/WS48
1988: 108/.124
1989: 106/.115
1990: 104/.107
1991: 103/.098

As for your 2nd point, check out who led the team in WinShares boost come playoff time. Regular season production isnt what made him great, it was the post season that he made his name. Thats where the true difference in his play is apparent.

Playoff Off.RTG/WS
1988: 108/.159
1989: 106/.135
1990: 113/.194
1991: 105/.054

Playoff PER:
1988: 20.7
1989: 18.6
1990: 21.0
1991: 15.0 (league average)


Looks like a pretty visible decline to me. How can you say the team was the same when its most valuable player was clearly not?




Im with you that his team is underrated, IMO hes not like Magic leading his team to the title even tho Magic had talented teammates as well. But he was a better playoff performer than regular season guy at that point.

stop with the statistics like PER. It was a different game and different rules back then. PER means crap.

bagwell368
06-12-2012, 09:47 PM
I absolutely disagree. I'm not the only one on here that feels this way either. This is just your opinion. Stockton was not even the best player on his team.

Please. Stockton is well better.

Kevj77
06-12-2012, 10:54 PM
Why does the title say Magic and Bird had anything to do with this? It was all Jordan. He flat out said he wouldn't play if Isiah was on the team.

Magic had already been diagnosed with HIV and retired from the NBA he was going to play no matter what, everyone thought it was his fairwell song. Back in the 90s we all thought he would be dead in 3-4 years. Bird was going to play because of Magic. Maybe they didn't like him, but they were going to play.

Misleading title.

Chronz
06-12-2012, 11:03 PM
stop with the statistics like PER. It was a different game and different rules back then. PER means crap.

LOL I was responding to a statistical claim, if you dont like it then respond to the original poster

KnicksorBust
06-13-2012, 01:35 PM
Anybody know how I can watch this? I don't have NBA TV anymore.

Chronz
06-13-2012, 02:49 PM
Anybody know how I can watch this? I don't have NBA TV anymore.

Ill pm you the link