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creamed corn
06-08-2012, 05:03 PM
i ran across this post earlier, and it made me think about why people on here overrate AI so much


how the **** is iverson ranked lower than wade, there are some dumb *** people.



wade is clearly better than iverson ever was. this is only one example, some people think he is god and want to see him back in the NBA for whatever reason at his age. why do you think he is so overrated by people?

jp611
06-08-2012, 05:07 PM
Why is AI so underrated should be the question

Bruno
06-08-2012, 05:08 PM
because he had several great, high-profile games when a lot of us were young and impressionable.

popo85
06-08-2012, 05:12 PM
Imo he is one of greatest scorers of all time and carried some very average teams but not a great defender nor a facilitator thats why i think he shouldn't be rated so high.

Vikingfan84
06-08-2012, 05:13 PM
Why do people who don't know basketball create these type of threads?

Vikingfan84
06-08-2012, 05:18 PM
Imo he is one of greatest scorers of all time and carried some very average teams but not a great defender nor a facilitator thats why i think he shouldn't be rated so high.
Iverson was like a gnat you couldn't get rid of. He was a pest. He was a great defender in a different way. He was a roamer who gambled a lot on defense. Was always tops in steals every year.

Iverson was a great facilitator (when he wanted to be). Which was not often.

I live in the Philly area and saw MANY Sixers games. He was one of the greatest little guys to play the game.

Still believe he could contribute if he settled into a reserve roll as he should. He's got more game than T-mac has right now.

Bos_Sports4Life
06-08-2012, 05:23 PM
AI while very good but is a bit overrated...

People say iverson carred a bunch of deadweight to the finals..Thats a bit flawed for a couple reasons..

* The east was total junk

* Mutombo was a BEAST still. .201 WS/48 (Better than Iverson). In the playoffs? He led the team in Winshares once again (1.1 AHEAD of iverson). He averaged 13.9/13.7 WHILE blocking 3 shots/game playing very good defense. He also played 42 min/game

* 76'ers had one of the best defenses in basketball.

Basically, I think even Pierce has had a better career than iverson, Yet most people would laugh at that statement. Pierce's best player alongside him was a freaking antoine walker. Mutombo>>>>>>Walker

That Guy Mooque
06-08-2012, 05:24 PM
At it's core, you know what the biggest problem with threads like this is? Who gave anyone the right to say whether or not someone's opinion is right or wrong?

Allen Iverson is my favorite athlete of all time. What he did at his size, with that supporting cast is IN MY OPINION greater than what Wade's accomplished given Wade's advantages (taller, heavier, better supporting cast during his championship runs). Does that mean I'm wrong? No. It just means that's how I feel. Would I say he's better than Jordan, Magic, Kareem, Bird, or Russell? No. But with someone like Wade, you can at least debate it.

2-ONE-5
06-08-2012, 05:26 PM
i ran across this post earlier, and it made me think about why people on here overrate AI so much




wade is clearly better than iverson ever was. this is only one example, some people think he is god and want to see him back in the NBA for whatever reason at his age. why do you think he is so overrated by people?

how is Wade "clearly" better then Iverson ever was? please enlighten me

KnickNyKnick
06-08-2012, 05:26 PM
this is why hes rated as he should be

1997 NBA Rookie of the Year and All Rookie First Team

1999 First Team All NBA and led the NBA in scoring with 26.8 points per game (ppg)

2000 Second Team All NBA

2000-02 Selected to the NBA All Star Team

2001 NBA Most Valuable Player and First Team All NBA; NBA leader in scoring with 31.1 ppg

2002 NBA leader in scoring (31.4 ppg), steals (2.80 per game), and minutes played (42.7 per game); named to Second Team All NBA

do i need to post more?

lol mvp and scoring champ in same year
and the next year scoring champ and leader in steals

Chronz
06-08-2012, 05:27 PM
@ OP, there are always fanboys for any player. If you look at PSD's player rankings we did a year ago, AI wasnt really ranked all that high and that was with his legion of fans helping him.


At it's core, you know what the biggest problem with threads like this is? Who gave anyone the right to say whether or not someone's opinion is right or wrong?

Allen Iverson is my favorite athlete of all time. What he did at his size, with that supporting cast is IN MY OPINION greater than what Wade's accomplished given Wade's advantages (taller, heavier, better supporting cast during his championship runs). Does that mean I'm wrong? No. It just means that's how I feel. Would I say he's better than Jordan, Magic, Kareem, Bird, or Russell? No. But with someone like Wade, you can at least debate it.
Your right, nobody has that right but it can be examined. Statistically AI doesnt touch Wade, Wade also has a ring. In terms of intangible qualities I think its safe to say Wade is a better defender and leader.

So really what would prevent us from disagreeing with his opinion. Just like we would disagree on him being better than any of the players you mentioned. Someone like Wade is clearly above someone like AI IMO.

scaramantula
06-08-2012, 05:28 PM
what is this thread supposed to be? a bash thread for when of the best scorers all time?
okay good luck lol

Chronz
06-08-2012, 05:30 PM
how is Wade "clearly" better then Iverson ever was? please enlighten me
Better stats, a shiny ring, better intangibles+defender. What exactly does AI have going for him in this comparison?

scaramantula
06-08-2012, 05:32 PM
Better stats, a shiny ring, better intangibles+defender. What exactly does AI have going for him in this comparison?

one of the all time leading scorers, also never got a chance to play with shaq, people never mention this when they bring up wades ring, he didnt win it alone, he had the greatest centre of all time on his team, and he still had quite a bit left in the tank at the time

Bos_Sports4Life
06-08-2012, 05:32 PM
At it's core, you know what the biggest problem with threads like this is? Who gave anyone the right to say whether or not someone's opinion is right or wrong?

Allen Iverson is my favorite athlete of all time. What he did at his size, with that supporting cast is IN MY OPINION greater than what Wade's accomplished given Wade's advantages (taller, heavier, better supporting cast during his championship runs). Does that mean I'm wrong? No. It just means that's how I feel. Would I say he's better than Jordan, Magic, Kareem, Bird, or Russell? No. But with someone like Wade, you can at least debate it.


Wade isn't on Jordan/Magic/Bird/Russells/Kareems level....All of those guy are top 8 players of all time.

thekmp211
06-08-2012, 05:32 PM
his size, his skill level, his passion on the court, and the way he culture shocked the post-jordan NBA.

i'd consider him to be one of the most purely talented bball players ever. but that isn't the same as "best". at all. in that capacity i think he's pretty overrated -- i would have never tried to build a contender around him as the sure fire nuber 1 option and i don't really feel the need to explain why.

i mean wade is bigger and better at everything than iverson was. don't take that the wrong way, it's just pretty much true.

KnickNyKnick
06-08-2012, 05:40 PM
lol and how is wade a better defender than AI, this guy lead the league in steals 3 years in a row. no one has ever done that. chris paul may do it next year

That Guy Mooque
06-08-2012, 05:44 PM
Wade isn't on Jordan/Magic/Bird/Russells/Kareems level....All of those guy are top 8 players of all time.

That's my point! But with Wade and AI, the gap is much smaller. And IN MY OPINION, if AI had the opportunity to play alongside Shaq, he might have some rings too lol. Afterall, the difference between the Sixers winning and losing the 2001 Finals was Shaq. And even with Wade competing for a title now, he's playing alongside LeBron and Bosh. If AI ever played alongside that kind of talent, this would be an entirely different discussion.

Don't get me wrong, Wade is great. I'm merely of the opinion that AI's better.

RLundi
06-08-2012, 05:46 PM
Countdown to Swash...

LAKERMANIA
06-08-2012, 05:50 PM
I agree with the OP... AI is completely overrated..

Dwayne Wade has had a better career and yes it is because of the 2006 NBA Finals.. Wade was simply amazing even though I wanted Miami to lose for obvious reasons at the time...

SeoulBeatz
06-08-2012, 05:53 PM
I can only imagine how Iverson's legacy would be different if he played with another superstar.

And don't tell me "A.I was too selfish to embrace a superstar", I can't even count how many times I heard A.I say "if only I had the chance to play with Shaq" (he and Shaq are good friends)

It really is something to ponder, especially when comparing Iverson to Kobe (please refrain from laughing, and continue to read)....

Kobe is selfish, he has a me-first attitude (although he plays it off in the media pretty well), but he's viewed in an entirely different light now and his legacy will obviously far outshine Iverson's because of his 5 championships and career longevity. Don't get me wrong, Iverson cannot even be mentioned in the same breathe as Kobe today.

But let's just put up the career #'s for arguments sake.

Bryant: 25.4 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 4.3 apg, 1.5 spg, 0.5 bpg, 3.0 TOpg, .450 FG%, .337 3pFG%
Iverson: 26.7 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 6.2 apg, 2.2 spg, 0.2 bpg, 3.5 TOpg, .425 FG%, .313 3pFG%

So what's the difference between how A.I approached the game and Kobe? Does Kobe making 2% more of his shots and turning the ball over .5 times less make him less selfish and significantly more efficient? I would expect a SG who is 6 inches shorter than the other to have a slightly tougher time getting easy looks, no?

The reason Iverson is berated is because Iverson never won a ring, he was immature when he was younger, and his downfall was incredibly fast. But to say he is overrated at this point is a fallacy, if anything it's hard to find people who actually RESPECT A.I anymore, and that's totally understandable with how he's portrayed by the media.

I honestly think his legacy would be a lot different if he had a real #2 option instead of a 32 year old Webber, 31 y/o Glenn Robinson, 33 y/o Mutumbo, and Keith Van Horn.... smh. Past is the past though.

MickeyMgl
06-08-2012, 06:00 PM
Street cred.

Chronz
06-08-2012, 06:02 PM
one of the all time leading scorers, also never got a chance to play with shaq, people never mention this when they bring up wades ring, he didnt win it alone, he had the greatest centre of all time on his team, and he still had quite a bit left in the tank at the time
Wade still has better stats so I dont see the point in focusing on inefficient scoring. And you can say he had help to win a title, but so did everyone who ever won a title, nobody wins it without help. That doesnt stop other people from taking championships into account. I dont put as much stock in them as most people but when the guy is already more productive and a better defender, its pretty hard to take the lesser player if hes not a better winner.

Wade has also taken flawed teams to the playoffs whereas AI was missing them altogether.

Chronz
06-08-2012, 06:04 PM
lol and how is wade a better defender than AI, this guy lead the league in steals 3 years in a row. no one has ever done that. chris paul may do it next year
Are you suggesting you cant be a great defender if you dont rack up the steals? Bruce Bowen has never had a high steal rate, he was also a better defender than AI.

AI racked up steals with incessant gambling, and on average he only gets about 3 a game. So thats 3 possessions your focusing on, what the other 90-100 possessions? Besides do you see me pointing out Wade gets more blocks than Iverson? There is so much more to defense than that, I have never heard of anyone claiming AI to be a superior defender.

Chronz
06-08-2012, 06:07 PM
That's my point! But with Wade and AI, the gap is much smaller. And IN MY OPINION, if AI had the opportunity to play alongside Shaq, he might have some rings too lol. Afterall, the difference between the Sixers winning and losing the 2001 Finals was Shaq. And even with Wade competing for a title now, he's playing alongside LeBron and Bosh. If AI ever played alongside that kind of talent, this would be an entirely different discussion.

Don't get me wrong, Wade is great. I'm merely of the opinion that AI's better.

I dont see them winning with that version of Shaq, nor do I see him being as efficient as Wade was in ANY environment. We have never seen AI be as productive as Wade in a championship team. What we have seen is both players on mediocre teams, and nothing changed. Wade was still more effective and AI still didnt have his defensive ability.

So why give him the benefit of doubt?

thekmp211
06-08-2012, 06:07 PM
i mean what did AI do? really do? as a number 1 option. circumstance aside he simply did not produce as an individual and more importantly as a teammate on both sides of the ball. his per game numbers are gaudy, and impressive, but after 2001* he should have realized his limitations and been more open to change.

did philly not always surround him with talent? perhaps. some things also didn't pan out. but there's a reason why dozens of players did nothing on iverson's philly teams, only to blossom next to more flexible teammates.

i could watch his mixes all day, but the role he was given and the one he probably should have played for most his career are very far apart imo.

meloman1592
06-08-2012, 06:09 PM
Iverson was better than Wade...i dont see why this thread was made


Hey look that rhymed

pd7631
06-08-2012, 06:15 PM
i mean what did AI do? really do? as a number 1 option. circumstance aside he simply did not produce as an individual and more importantly as a teammate on both sides of the ball. his per game numbers are gaudy, and impressive, but after 2001* he should have realized his limitations and been more open to change.

did philly not always surround him with talent? perhaps. some things also didn't pan out. but there's a reason why dozens of players did nothing on iverson's philly teams, only to blossom next to more flexible teammates.

i could watch his mixes all day, but the role he was given and the one he probably should have played for most his career are very far apart imo.

Please name these players that blossomed once they left Philly. I'm dying to hear this, because the fact of the matter is that AI's teammates in Philly were a collection of misfits that were nobodies before playing with AI, and then they were nobodies when they left.

Eric Snow, Aaron McKie, Kenny Thomas, and countless others can thank Allen Iverson for the ridiculous contracts they received as a result of playing with Allen Iverson.

Any decent player brought in to play alongside AI as a 2nd option was either not that good to begin with, or well past their prime. It's honestly insulting for anyone to try and make a case for AI's teammates (talent wise) in Philly being anything other than sub-standard.

Chronz
06-08-2012, 06:19 PM
Please name these players that blossomed once they left Philly. I'm dying to hear this, because the fact of the matter is that AI's teammates in Philly were a collection of misfits that were nobodies before playing with AI, and then they were nobodies when they left.

Eric Snow, Aaron McKie, Kenny Thomas, and countless others can thank Allen Iverson for the ridiculous contracts they received as a result of playing with Allen Iverson.

Any decent player brought in to play alongside AI as a 2nd option was either not that good to begin with, or well past their prime. It's honestly insulting for anyone to try and make a case for AI's teammates (talent wise) in Philly being anything other than sub-standard.

Who would you say were AI's best teammates in Philly?

pd7631
06-08-2012, 06:21 PM
To answer the question, I don't think AI is overrated....not one bit. If anything, he doesn't get enough respect and adoration for the way he played the game and the things he was able to accomplish.

I feel privileged to have seen AI on so many occasions, and grow up watching him play. I wouldn't trade AI and his time in Philly for any other player in the history of the game. He was that special.

pd7631
06-08-2012, 06:21 PM
Who would you say were AI's best teammates in Philly?

Talent wise?

Shlumpledink
06-08-2012, 06:23 PM
Iverson did play with a couple teams that had good defense, but they had crap offense. Allen iverson was the offense, and he was dominant. A 5'11 guy that was unstoppable at times. He played through so many injuries and he was very explosive.

BULLSFAN0810
06-08-2012, 06:25 PM
You know why A.i is great?
5"11 165
Led nba on scoring and steals
and shaq said it

Real talk if you got the galls and compare a.i to anyone and say said player this generation other than kobe bryant, tim duncan, lbj and durant is better you must not be subjective.

Chronz
06-08-2012, 06:36 PM
To answer the question, I don't think AI is overrated....not one bit. If anything, he doesn't get enough respect and adoration for the way he played the game and the things he was able to accomplish.

I feel privileged to have seen AI on so many occasions, and grow up watching him play. I wouldn't trade AI and his time in Philly for any other player in the history of the game. He was that special.
To me, if your saying you wouldnt trade him for any player ever, isnt that overrating him? I know your speaking as a fan but you dont think you would have loved seeing another player stay in Philly? Like wouldnt you have appreciated Dr.J just the same if you saw him play? Or does AI's passion hit a chord with you that your willing to overlook his flaws and refuse a superior player?


Talent wise?
Talent/Production/Skillset, collection of all 3, Im sure the list wont look all that different if you look at his best 10 teammates.

Rivera
06-08-2012, 06:40 PM
AI is the goat he led a team full of bums with a 42 year old mutombo as his 2nd best player and won a game vs one of the best teams ever that laker teamthat looked invincible...i know he only won a game but the fact he won a game with his cast vs that lakers team is pretty incredible to me

Ai never played with a legit 2nd option. Muttombo was old (he still had good D) but he was way past his prime. The 2nd best scorer on that finals team was aaron mckie lolololol and he also had an old and injured c webb who was past his prime with philly

When ai finally played with a legit 1/2 option (melo) AI was at the beginin of his decline. In his prime he was a special player and talent to watch. One of my favorite players ever

Hawkeye15
06-08-2012, 06:40 PM
Because Iverson was extremely entertaining, flashy, and had a ton of street to his game, so he had more fanboys than a lot of other players that were flat out a lot better. Kids like the sick crossovers, the tattoos, the thug attitude, etc. They are busy high fiving after a killer crossover that leads to a guys ankles being smashed and AI hitting a jumper, so they miss the ensuing beat down he gets on the other end and the next shot he takes which is an airball from 19 with 15 seconds on the shot clock.

Great player, but he is way overrated. Top 50 ever maybe. But his MVP was a travesty (don't take it personally AI fans, there have been many MVP's that were B.S.), and he was never the best at his position. He will be a HOF'er, but it shouldn't be 1st ballot.

llemon
06-08-2012, 06:40 PM
To answer the question, I don't think AI is overrated....not one bit. If anything, he doesn't get enough respect and adoration for the way he played the game and the things he was able to accomplish.

I feel privileged to have seen AI on so many occasions, and grow up watching him play. I wouldn't trade AI and his time in Philly for any other player in the history of the game. He was that special.

'adoration'. I believe within this word lies the problem.

Hawkeye15
06-08-2012, 06:41 PM
the whole, "he never played with a legit 2nd option" is funny to me. Iverson didn't co-exist with that type fellas. Only when he was older and on the decline did he accept a legit scorer who was going to take shots away from him on the same team. The Sixers were built as PERFECTLY as they could have been for Iverson to be the #1 option and that team be a true contender.

thekmp211
06-08-2012, 06:43 PM
Please name these players that blossomed once they left Philly. I'm dying to hear this, because the fact of the matter is that AI's teammates in Philly were a collection of misfits that were nobodies before playing with AI, and then they were nobodies when they left.

Eric Snow, Aaron McKie, Kenny Thomas, and countless others can thank Allen Iverson for the ridiculous contracts they received as a result of playing with Allen Iverson.

Any decent player brought in to play alongside AI as a 2nd option was either not that good to begin with, or well past their prime. It's honestly insulting for anyone to try and make a case for AI's teammates (talent wise) in Philly being anything other than sub-standard.


hughes played his best in washington, that's why he got overpaid by the cavs.

hughes, van horn, raja bell, tony kukoc, todd macculloch, speedy claxon, john salmons, willie green (..seriously, he was even worse) , andre iguodala, matt barnes, i'd argue melo, jr smith, andre miller ect...

basically any player who needed to dribble before they scored on offense, or any big man who wasn't a defensive specialist.

2-ONE-5
06-08-2012, 06:45 PM
To me, if your saying you wouldnt trade him for any player ever, isnt that overrating him? I know your speaking as a fan but you dont think you would have loved seeing another player stay in Philly? Like wouldnt you have appreciated Dr.J just the same if you saw him play? Or does AI's passion hit a chord with you that your willing to overlook his flaws and refuse a superior player?


Talent/Production/Skillset, collection of all 3, Im sure the list wont look all that different if you look at his best 10 teammates.

take his best 10 teammates and they prob lose to the Bobcats.

llemon
06-08-2012, 06:45 PM
Please name these players that blossomed once they left Philly. I'm dying to hear this

Stackhouse, Hughes, Raja Bell, Bruce Bowen.

Interestingly, no bigmen.

pd7631
06-08-2012, 06:58 PM
To me, if your saying you wouldnt trade him for any player ever, isnt that overrating him? I know your speaking as a fan but you dont think you would have loved seeing another player stay in Philly? Like wouldnt you have appreciated Dr.J just the same if you saw him play? Or does AI's passion hit a chord with you that your willing to overlook his flaws and refuse a superior player?


Talent/Production/Skillset, collection of all 3, Im sure the list wont look all that different if you look at his best 10 teammates.

To answer the first part, I don't think I'm overrating him by saying that. I appreciate so much the way he played, the way he spoke, and his relationship with Philly fans as a whole. I've never seen a player/city relationship like the way it is with AI and Philly. I can't really describe it, but he's like the real life Rocky.

I'm not saying he's the greatest player ever, I can admit that there are at least 20 players better than him (I could make a case for him after that though, as you know from the PSD 50 greatest player poll). But for whatever shortcoming's he had in his game, or even the fact that he never really made it to the top of the mountain, I still would not trade him for any player in history.


Now, to the second part. In no particular order:

-Eric Snow
-Aaron McKie
-Theo Ratliff
-Dikembe Mutombo
-Tyrone Hill
-George Lynch
-Chris Webber(was still a gifted passer, and could knock down jumpers....useless on defense though).
-Andre Iguodala(unfortunately they only got to play together for a short time early in Iggy's career).
-Keith Van Horn(was actually pretty good, and the Sixers looked to be back on the upswing the 1 year he was in Philly.....of course he was dealt the following offseason)
-Kenny Thomas....yeah, this was bad

pd7631
06-08-2012, 07:00 PM
Because Iverson was extremely entertaining, flashy, and had a ton of street to his game, so he had more fanboys than a lot of other players that were flat out a lot better. Kids like the sick crossovers, the tattoos, the thug attitude, etc. They are busy high fiving after a killer crossover that leads to a guys ankles being smashed and AI hitting a jumper, so they miss the ensuing beat down he gets on the other end and the next shot he takes which is an airball from 19 with 15 seconds on the shot clock.

Great player, but he is way overrated. Top 50 ever maybe. But his MVP was a travesty (don't take it personally AI fans, there have been many MVP's that were B.S.), and he was never the best at his position. He will be a HOF'er, but it shouldn't be 1st ballot.

Could not be further from the truth. When I think of Allen Iverson, none of what you described crosses my mind.

flatbush knicks
06-08-2012, 07:02 PM
lmao if anything ai is extremely underrated

llemon
06-08-2012, 07:04 PM
lmao if anything ai is extremely underrated

You're the clincher, buddy.

pd7631
06-08-2012, 07:10 PM
Stackhouse, Hughes, Raja Bell, Bruce Bowen.

Interestingly, no bigmen.


1.) Stackhouse and AI barely got to play together, 1 full season and a small portion of the next.

2.) Larry Hughes played his first 1.5 seasons with Philly. Even if he were to become a good player, it's not gonna be in his first 1.5 seasons in the league.

3.) Raja Bell, really? Dude was signed to a 10 day contract out of the CBA in April of 2001. He spent 1 full season in Philly. If he doesn't latch on the the Finals bound Sixers in 01', perhaps he doesn't wind up on anyone's radar and never plays a game in the NBA.

4.) Half a season in Philly.



"Interestingly, no big men".
^^
Exactly.

meloman1592
06-08-2012, 07:10 PM
lmao if anything ai is extremely underrated

This....AI could go toee to toe with any and everyone and never ever shrunk when it mattered. The guy never had adequate help

010957
06-08-2012, 07:13 PM
the whole, "he never played with a legit 2nd option" is funny to me. Iverson didn't co-exist with that type fellas. Only when he was older and on the decline did he accept a legit scorer who was going to take shots away from him on the same team. The Sixers were built as PERFECTLY as they could have been for Iverson to be the #1 option and that team be a true contender.

What are you saying, that he didn't want to co-exist with another scorer because of how he plays, or that he was just never provided with another legit second option.

If another high scorer like shaq went to iverson's philly team, do you think he could 'accept' to have him on his team as another scoring option?

thekmp211
06-08-2012, 07:15 PM
take his best 10 teammates and they prob lose to the Bobcats.

think about some of the names the guy has played with and tell me if that makes ANY sense, whatsoever.

Hawkeye15
06-08-2012, 07:15 PM
What are you saying, that he didn't want to co-exist with another scorer because of how he plays, or that he was just never provided with another legit second option.

If another high scorer like shaq went to iverson's philly team, do you think he could 'accept' to have him on his team as another scoring option?

Nope, I don't think Iverson had any interest in sharing the ball, therefore his management needed to get great, versatile defenders, spot up shooters, offensive rebounders, and slashers to go along with a big man that could cover up any perimeter defensive mistakes, many of which were made by AI when he was trying to disrupt passing lanes and taking himself out of plays.

Hawkeye15
06-08-2012, 07:16 PM
Again, notice how many players Iverson played with enjoyed jumps in offensive efficiency when they left, or he left. He didn't make anyone better. Quite the opposite. It was the Iverson show to him.

Hawkeye15
06-08-2012, 07:18 PM
Could not be further from the truth. When I think of Allen Iverson, none of what you described crosses my mind.

Look at your avatar and sig. I am sorry, but there is no possibility in having a rational conversation concerning Iverson with you.

Greatest chucker in history, and his game drew non-Philly fans because it was exciting and flashy, not because he was fundamentally a good player, teammate, or showed an unmatched work ethic.

thekmp211
06-08-2012, 07:18 PM
What are you saying, that he didn't want to co-exist with another scorer because of how he plays, or that he was just never provided with another legit second option.

If another high scorer like shaq went to iverson's philly team, do you think he could 'accept' to have him on his team as another scoring option?


dude he wouldn't defer to melo, does he have to play with freakin MJ? what would it take for him to accept someone else as the number 1 option.

people are going to start reading my comments and think i hate the guy. i really enjoyed watching AI play, but i can separate that from my assessment of his value and impact.

b@llhog24
06-08-2012, 07:27 PM
Countdown to Swash...

Beat me to it.


dude he wouldn't defer to melo, does he have to play with freakin MJ? what would it take for him to accept someone else as the number 1 option.

people are going to start reading my comments and think i hate the guy. i really enjoyed watching AI play, but i can separate that from my assessment of his value and impact.

Now you understand how I feel about Rondo :D

2-ONE-5
06-08-2012, 07:30 PM
dude he wouldn't defer to melo, does he have to play with freakin MJ? what would it take for him to accept someone else as the number 1 option.

people are going to start reading my comments and think i hate the guy. i really enjoyed watching AI play, but i can separate that from my assessment of his value and impact.

AI was still a top scorer when he went to the Nuggets and they made a bad deal by bringing him in. They needed a pass first PG not another solid scoring SG like Iverson still was. That was poor management by Denver

2-ONE-5
06-08-2012, 07:32 PM
think about some of the names the guy has played with and tell me if that makes ANY sense, whatsoever.

Stackhouse is the only one that turned out to be a good player. the rest were role players.

llemon
06-08-2012, 07:34 PM
1.) Stackhouse and AI barely got to play together, 1 full season and a small portion of the next.

2.) Larry Hughes played his first 1.5 seasons with Philly. Even if he were to become a good player, it's not gonna be in his first 1.5 seasons in the league.

3.) Raja Bell, really? Dude was signed to a 10 day contract out of the CBA in April of 2001. He spent 1 full season in Philly. If he doesn't latch on the the Finals bound Sixers in 01', perhaps he doesn't wind up on anyone's radar and never plays a game in the NBA.

4.) Half a season in Philly.



"Interestingly, no big men".
^^
Exactly.

Yes, because good offensive bigmen demand the ball, and they wouldn't get it from AI.

You asked for players that got better when they got away from AI, and I gave them to you.

thekmp211
06-08-2012, 07:34 PM
Stackhouse is the only one that turned out to be a good player. the rest were role players.

carmelo anthony? andre miller? hughes was an overrated hack but he was better post AI, playing with gilbert 'not exactly a pure pg' arenas.

he just didn't enhance the skills of any player he played with besides defensive/spot up specialists.

i def get the rondo parrallel, interesting because the way those two guys approach the game is very different. but inspired from a similar place. at least hustlenomics is consistent

pd7631
06-08-2012, 07:37 PM
hughes played his best in washington, that's why he got overpaid by the cavs.

hughes, van horn, raja bell, tony kukoc, todd macculloch, speedy claxon, john salmons, willie green (..seriously, he was even worse) , andre iguodala, matt barnes, i'd argue melo, jr smith, andre miller ect...

basically any player who needed to dribble before they scored on offense, or any big man who wasn't a defensive specialist.

First off, you said Philly....so forget about those Nuggets guys, and he never played with Andre Miller.


-Larry Hughes, should never have been taken by the Sixers (passed on both Dirk and Pierce) and he was only in Philly his first 1.5 seasons. No **** he got better as his career went on, he was a very young player when we traded him.

-Toni Kukoc was 31 when he got to Philly, and the Sixers had the best record in the league before he was traded in the Mutombo deal (a result of the Ratliff injury). Kukoc was aging, and he went from playing a lot of minutes on a ****** Bulls team to playing less minutes on a good team. Of course his production was going to slip.

-Keith Van Horn, the Sixers actually made a significant improvement in the 1 year they had Van Horn and he averaged 16pts and 7reb playing alongside AI (improved numbers from his previous season with NJ). Then he was traded for Glen 'might as well be, dead dog' Robinson.

-Raja Bell, again like Larry Hughes.....spent hardly any time in Philly early in his career. Seems stupid not to think that he'd improve as his career moved along....no matter where.

-Todd MacCulloch, was stuck behind Dikembe Mutombo in Philly, of course he's not gonna play. His per 36 min production was actually better in Philly than in NJ, there simply was no way he was getting ahead of Deke in the rotation though.

-Speedy Claxton, really? We're talkin about Speedy Claxton? Spent 1 year in Philly, and was a senseless pick. Score another one for the dynamic drafting duo of Billy King and Larry Brown.

-John Salmons, I guess I'll give you this one....but he was an absolute dog in Philly and his production didn't go up until he started playing on ****** teams in Sactown.

-Willie Green, did not flourish once AI left. There were simply more minutes available to him and as a result, higher numbers. Check the per 36 min stats though, and you'll see that he really didn't improve. The days of Willie Green starting for the Sixers were very dark indeed, and something most Sixer fans wish they could've been blind for.

-Andre Iguodala, yes he improved once AI left, but you don't think that has anything to do with the fact that he was only 21 and 22 when he played with AI? For what it's worth, Iggy had his lowest scoring average this year since playing with AI, and the team finished with a winning record for the first time since AI was traded.

-Matt Barnes, we're talkin about Matt Barnes? How did AI hold him back?



Sheesh, that was painful to talk about. So many scrubs, yet people are trying to make it seem as if AI was playing with all time great role players.

Mrphilly
06-08-2012, 07:38 PM
Nope, I don't think Iverson had any interest in sharing the ball, therefore his management needed to get great, versatile defenders, spot up shooters, offensive rebounders, and slashers to go along with a big man that could cover up any perimeter defensive mistakes, many of which were made by AI when he was trying to disrupt passing lanes and taking himself out of plays.

Iverson average 30ppg and 8 assist 2004-20005, then the next year averaged 33ppg and 8 assist. So what makes you think he had no interest in sharing the ball??? If he had anybody on those teams that could consistently put the ball in the basket he would have averaged 30+ppg and 10+assist a game. Do you know how insane that is????

3RDASYSTEM
06-08-2012, 07:39 PM
The title thread should be why didnt AI carry overrated talent his entire 76er career(10 1/2 seasons)

and quit talking about a 'ring' if its not going to carry same weight with a PAXSON/KERR/PURDUE/FISHER/HORRY(25 RINGS) as BIRD/WADE/HAKEEM/PIPPEN -12 RINGS - a ring doesnt determine a players 'game'/impact/individual dominance



WADE is a bigger version of AI(not as skilled coming in nba), i said it when he came in 2003 draft and for some reason that WARRIORS coach said the same thing when he was doing a tv game yrs back

3RDASYSTEM
06-08-2012, 07:41 PM
Its like AI played with all these perennial allstars and allnba 1st team players and just ****ing choked like P.MANNING/AROD(pre rings) combined....AI has to be the biggest loser in NBA history ..just look at his STUD and i mean STUD horses who he ran with...read carefully
----
1998-yr2 - D.COLEMAN(quit on career/out of shape/done,BARKLEY called him the best ever before his first game,potential wise,nobody could shoot/dribble/postup like him but this what AI got left with) - 17.6ppg on 41fg pct ---- IVERSON 22ppg on 46fg pct

side note: KB8 had modern day WILT for his first 8yrs before dumping him off to WADE for a ship as a old but still effective old man DIESEL
-----

1999-yr3 - the allnba future HOF GEIGER put up an astounding 13.5ppg on 48fg pct and AI put up 26.8ppg on 41fg pct

2000-yr4 - the allnba perennial allstar T.HILL put up a allworld 12ppg and AI dropped 28.4ppg

2001-yr5 - the greatest 6th man of alltime is unleashed and he puts up a incredible 11.7ppg and just lights it up and is tightly gameplanned for ...AI put up 31ppg

2002-yr6 - the great talent and perennial allnba'er in HARPRING put up an amazing 11.8ppg(he played 80+games so he was BATMAN to LIL DIPPER) ..AI put up 31ppg

2003 -yr7- the first ballot HOF'er K.VAN HORN just burned up the charts to a 15.9ppg and AI dropped 27.6ppg

2004-yr8 - BIG DOG couldnt get out of bed with bad ankles so the perennial K.THOMAS just tore up the competition to a tune of 13.6ppg while AI put up 26.4ppg

2005-yr9 - the unstoppable force of M.JACKSON down low just dominated to the tune of 12ppg and AI dropped 30.7ppg

2006 - WEBBER who was easily good for 27ppg and 12rpg prior to having 2 microfracture surgeries before being shipped to AI and dropping 20ppg and AI put up 33ppg

2007 - the future HOF IGGY and first time allstar in like 10yrs put up a respectable 18ppg to AI's 31ppg

2008 - Him and MELO are top scoring duo and this is first time in his entire career he got to play with a legit every game 40-50pt scorer to lean on while the great KB8 had SHAQ for his first 8yrs, does that make a diff. for some 'team' success?

pd7631
06-08-2012, 07:41 PM
Look at your avatar and sig. I am sorry, but there is no possibility in having a rational conversation concerning Iverson with you.

Greatest chucker in history, and his game drew non-Philly fans because it was exciting and flashy, not because he was fundamentally a good player, teammate, or showed an unmatched work ethic.

Yeah, take the easy way out.

3RDASYSTEM
06-08-2012, 07:44 PM
WADE couldnt even get out of first round after winning that weak *** 'ring' and couldnt get out of 1st rd before BRON took his talents to S.BEACH, and he played in like 50games that season they only won 11 and a total of 15

he took everything nobody gave him nothing thats why i dont know how he could be overrated... why you think BRON and them rock the armsleeve/headband/tatts? why you think kids around rock the arm sleeve? why the dress code?

he played the same game/style since a junior in highschool and was still doing it at DENVER/DETROIT 15yrs later, how in the **** is that overrated, only BARRY SANDERS and FAVRE/P.MANNING and MOSS basically did the same thing for that long of a period,even JORDAN had to go from 'come fly with me' to postup/midrange JORDAN ...how is that overrated

if you look at his 'BATMAN' you could tell his team was never constructed for a title run or a playoff berth, just like after they got rid of SHAQ after 06 title and i was like WADE has same squad AI basically had, but what do i know about somebody who can play and who cant..i know nothing you and LLEMON own PSD....TMAC/WILT are basically the same player as AI minus those 2 rings WILT had to go to LAKERLAND and win

And that dumb **** about him getting 3steals per game out of 90 possessions, he prob got others steals thru deflections tips and you had to always figure where he was on the floor roaming the perimeter..no diff than IBAKA weak side helping and blocking shots and getting a couple straight up blocks, but like i said since AI did it for 3strait yrs and not ALVIN ROBERTSON,it doesnt count for nothing

3RDASYSTEM
06-08-2012, 07:47 PM
from 1993-2008 he played the same game/style til the wheels were taken off..by STERN

take a look at the vid and look how his game/style neva changed or faded,he just kept attacking from all angles, he could score like DURANT/R.MILLER/RIP/JORDAN/BRON/WADE/BIRD all in 1 player at under 6ft and could dish the rock as well - running off screens to attacking the lane to pullup j to a pullup 3pt shot to catching alleyoops and dunking on people...nobody could match his 'physical' ability
1993 - http://youtu.be/5FGki9gshb4
1994 -http://youtu.be/75WO1ajGHag
1996 - http://youtu.be/iIsybLzyaVQ
2001 -http://youtu.be/4OppxKDj44E
2008 -http://youtu.be/K_scXIH6DPw
http://youtu.be/zcS6qN1agnA

WADE developed a 3shot and honed his midrange game after yrs in the league, AI was pulling 30foot 3's in HIGHSCHOOL and his pullup was lethal..he hit over 100 threes as a rookie, AI was top flight skilled coming in NBA,he developed nothing..his only weakness was 'TURNOVERS'? really TO'S? AI's rare mix of equally skill-athletic ability is 2nd to none...

mavwar53
06-08-2012, 07:49 PM
cause the media latched onto him since he had a high PPG despite a poor FG%

pd7631
06-08-2012, 07:49 PM
Yes, because good offensive bigmen demand the ball, and they wouldn't get it from AI.

You asked for players that got better when they got away from AI, and I gave them to you.

1.) How can you say that AI wouldn't give the ball to a good offensive big man? He never had the opportunity. BTW, C-Webb got 19 shots a game playing with AI. I'd say he shared the ball plenty with him.

2.) You could play that game with pretty much every player in the league. "OMG, Toni Kukoc averaged more pts, reb, and ast when Michael Jordan retired. MJ was holding him back!"

3RDASYSTEM
06-08-2012, 07:50 PM
im always open and glad to teaching you and LLEMON on this guys 'game' but this is getting ridiculous on questioning a guy who had to carry a squad for a decade and not be BRON's size/height ..but same height as NATE ROBINSON ...but lets talk about his PER or fg pct to make yall look right, its just like 3steals per game doesnt mean nothing, well him shooting 42pct and having to take 25-40 shots per contest doesnt mean nothing either,its jus his degree of difficulty was easily the hardest in league amongst 'star's carrying teams with just a 1punch...CP3/D.WILL/ROSE/NASH/ or whoever name you want to insert would not have any success with those rosters he had to roll with, so stop with all this blasphemous poppycock

especially DWADE, we already seen wat happened from 2007-2010 after winning the 'ring' ...AI never fell off, before his MVP and FINALS run and right after,he just never did

i would have loved to see BRON stay in CAVS for at least a decade..but i forget he said he didnt wanna have bad knees when he retired(bball language saying he doesnt want to end up like a KG/AI and getting no help and carrying load like they did in PHILLY/MINNY)..so he went and teamed up with a org. who has a chance to reach multiple FINALS app.,dont know how many they will win,but they are 'built' for it, unlike any of AI's squads,...even that FINALS squad wasnt built to go deep

for those saying that he didnt want to play with another 'scorer' thats the biggest hogwash in history and its just a 'copy and paste' analogy for yall to hold on to

It was documented that he had 'cried' on 1998 draft day when his firstclass top notch org. picked up a weaker combo version of AI(why draft him when you have top notch combo G?) in HUGHES instead of drafting the wing scorer to start with him and compliment him better in P.PIERCE, so how is that not a trait of a winner? or maybe he felt like a loser since he knew they ****ed up bad ...

answer this CHRONZ ..wats a better 1-2punch that you would build with looking back in hindsight HUGHES/AI or PIERCE/AI combo?you can even lie about it to make yourself feel good

you think AI went to CROCE/KING and said get me VANHORN/M.JACKSON/COLEMAN/DEKE and HARPRING/MCKIE/BELL/LYNCH ,those are some of the slowest bigs and weakest wings of alltime, in history of the game, but i guess a supertalent would want lesser and not equal talent?only at the wonderful world of PSD,gotta respect it

3RDASYSTEM
06-08-2012, 07:59 PM
when i think of AI i think of when JORDAN said after he lit'em up for 44pts and MJ said ''was that me out there, it looked like me my rookie yr''

all this flashy/crossover **** is what the league promoted to take away from his skill

its funny cause a commentator was saying in a game ''people talk about his toughness and shot selection and off court stuff, but nobody talks about how 'skilled' this guy is...he had combo of skill/athletic-physical ability off charts, and heart/toughness to match...sick attributes, only thing hurt him was his height..but he had like a 6'4 winspan with a 44inch vertical to match at NATE ROBINSONS height

thekmp211
06-08-2012, 08:01 PM
THE ISSUE IS HE SHOULDNT HAVE BEEN A NUMBER ONE OPTION. HE SHOULDNT HAVE BEEN A PURE 2. he SHOULD have tailored his game and become a better, more efficient passer.

he never improved or adapted. ever. and he never won a ring. and he always insisted on being "the man". i don't care how talentd you are thats not the way to do it.

Bos_Sports4Life
06-08-2012, 08:24 PM
Pound for pound iverson was one of the greatest, but that means NOTHING...

Iverson's TS% is .518, In the postseason? (71 games) It's at .489.

WS/48

Reg season: .126

Playoffs: .109

Volume stats are overrated, Efficiency is much more important. And While iverson had a TON of volume, not much in efficiency.

Anyone that has him in the top 25 would be overrating him to an extreme amount...It would be like me claiming freaking pierce is a top 25 player ever..

2-ONE-5
06-08-2012, 08:56 PM
THE ISSUE IS HE SHOULDNT HAVE BEEN A NUMBER ONE OPTION. HE SHOULDNT HAVE BEEN A PURE 2. he SHOULD have tailored his game and become a better, more efficient passer.

he never improved or adapted. ever. and he never won a ring. and he always insisted on being "the man". i don't care how talentd you are thats not the way to do it.

:facepalm:wait so a guy who led the league in scoring multiple times and was the elagues MVP should not have been a number 1 option?

one wasnt enough........:facepalm:

he was always a good passer and was never given credit for it. he is 37th all time in assists.

dh144498
06-08-2012, 09:06 PM
Iverson was one of the most SKILLED players I've ever seen. The dude can play some epic basketball. It was his attitude that eventually led to his downfall.

llemon
06-08-2012, 09:09 PM
1.) How can you say that AI wouldn't give the ball to a good offensive big man? He never had the opportunity. BTW, C-Webb got 19 shots a game playing with AI. I'd say he shared the ball plenty with him.

2.) You could play that game with pretty much every player in the league. "OMG, Toni Kukoc averaged more pts, reb, and ast when Michael Jordan retired. MJ was holding him back!"

Sixers FO realized AI couldn't co-exist with another player that needed the ball.

Webber was a last ditch effort.

And remember, Iverson didn't lead a bunch of bums to the Finals.

A carefully chosen team of supporting players were assembled in order to get AI to the Finals.

I hate Larry Brown, but he did a great job in that case.

ANKUSH
06-08-2012, 09:37 PM
Iverson was a force to be reckoned with in his prime. In this generation of player, only him, Kobe, and Durant are the players that I believe to posses an absolute mastery of the offensive game....albeit Durant is still developing and Iverson wasn't nearly as refined as Kobe is (I think Kobe is in a league of his own). The game is 50% offense and 50% defense. Wade doesn't touch Iverson's scoring prowess. It's illogical to think he does, in fact. What is debatable is a comparison of their defensive ability, which is closer than many people believe. Iverson's 76'ers team with Larry Brown as coach was an upper-echelon defensive team. And I believe Iverson had a lot do with that.

People on this forum and general seem to like him b/c he played the game hard and gave it his all (maybe not in practice, but in the real game). He was shorter, but played like he was 6 foot 8. And people root for that type of player. However, honestly, it all comes down to this: People do not tend to relate with guys that carry purses or wear pink pants (that's not a knock on Wade, just an observation).

Shareeb_omac2
06-08-2012, 10:00 PM
Prime Iverson would eat Wade alive...

But then wouldn't be able to guard Wade either.

Mrphilly
06-08-2012, 10:03 PM
Prime Iverson would eat Wade alive...

But then wouldn't be able to guard Wade either.

Eric Snow would be assigned to Wade, AI would be guarding Chalmers!!!:)

SportsAndrew25
06-08-2012, 10:13 PM
Because he was a baller and he did not talk about PRACTICE!!!!

Blazers#1Fan
06-08-2012, 10:20 PM
because he had several great, high-profile games when a lot of us were young and impressionable.

actually he was really good more then a few games i watched alot AI that was my favorite player and still is if he returns he is like LeBron of back then everybody would watch AI and his shoes/Jersey were everywhere

Blazers#1Fan
06-08-2012, 10:21 PM
Because he was a baller and he did not talk about PRACTICE!!!!

he didnt practice

Jarvo
06-08-2012, 10:23 PM
Allen Iverson > One Of The Best To Ever In The NBA

xxplayerxx23
06-08-2012, 10:25 PM
Iverson had two things the sexiest crossever ive ever seen and he can flat out score, with that being said wade>Iverson. Not a knock at all on iverson my favorite player as a kid and an amazing player but wade is better

DenButsu
06-08-2012, 10:41 PM
I think this question basically goes to what level people are watching and analyzing basketball on.

AI was really exciting to watch in his heyday. On a purely emotional level it was inspiring to see such a little guy fearlessly crashing through a forest of giants night after night, with a lot of flair, creativity and toughness. It was just plain fun to watch those Sixers.

There's also his whole quasi-gangta image thing. He pretty much carved out his own unique niche in terms of marketing, with the fashion, the corn rows, the tats, the association with music. "Good businessman" probably isn't the first thing people think of when they think of Iverson, but he did (whether it was on his own or due to good handling) pretty much pioneer a whole new market, and a lot of players soon followed suit.

So I think all of the above reasons are really the foundation of his popularity. People loved him (and still do) for those things, and became really loyal to him, attached their identities to him, and in many cases, will unquestioningly defend him to the end, facts and stats be damned.

But notice nothing I've said yet has anything to do with analyzing whether he was actually a great basketball player or not. And I do think most of his blindly loyal supporters stop short of that. They'll point to titles and awards, but if you dare mention anything like efficiency, it's "talk to the hand" time.

I've gone around and around and around in circles about this countless times in the Nuggets forum (as recently as last week), and the end result is always the same. Showing statistical evidence that Iverson falls well short of being the greatest to loyal AI fans is about as useful as showing the unedited video of building 7 to 9/11 conspiracy theorists.

Their minds are simply not open to the plain facts laid out before them. They won't even consider the possibility that he was anything less than perfect. This has been my experience, at least.

llemon
06-08-2012, 10:45 PM
Allen Iverson > One Of The Best To Ever In The NBA

Amongst many of the other of the best to ever play the game

Fresno
06-08-2012, 11:05 PM
How is he overrated? A lot of people have lost proper clarity on Iverson's career because of the way it ended and how abruptly it occured.

He literally went from being a 26 PPG scorer in his "prime" doing things that only All-Time great players could do at 32 years old to struggling to find a MLE deal within 10 months. How many NBA players get more efficient as they get older? Its one of the great facts that nobody seems to mention when talking about AI.

Fresno
06-08-2012, 11:11 PM
Prime Iverson would eat Wade alive...

But then wouldn't be able to guard Wade either.

Head 2 Head matchups between both:

Allen Iverson: 27.6 PPG 6 APG 2.4 SPG
Dwyane Wade: 26.3 PPG 8.3 APG 1.5 SPG

Pretty equal.

Iverson dropped 40+ Points on Wade, twice.
Wade dropped 48 Points on Iverson in a game where Iverson responded by going for 38 Points & 16 Assists. :speechless:

These dudes had some wars in the Eastern Conference 6+ years ago.

metsfan4ever
06-08-2012, 11:12 PM
He's top 100, but as it's been said, the ***** didn't play defense. Can't put him among the GOAT's because he played 1 side of the ball so well.

metsfan4ever
06-08-2012, 11:13 PM
He wasnt a great 1 on 1 defender but that ***** owned the passing lanes..

fadedmario
06-08-2012, 11:14 PM
Iverson is trash

willabeast77
06-08-2012, 11:21 PM
Iverson as good as he was, is overrated. For sure many of his fans and the media did overrated him. He wasn't much of a team player and it was evident when he lefts the Sixers. When he got traded, the Sixers still got better the next few yrs quickly. In general, when Iverson left his teams, those teams got better and the teams he came to got worse from the previous season.

Fresno
06-08-2012, 11:24 PM
He's top 100, but as it's been said, the ***** didn't play defense. Can't put him among the GOAT's because he played 1 side of the ball so well.

Magic Johnson wasn't a great defender either despite being a physical freak for his size at his position.

People overlook certain things when you win titles.

Can't say Iverson played 1 side of the ball when he played the entire game without much rest. He was nowhere near the defensive liability people pretend he was back during this time.

LakersMaster24
06-08-2012, 11:40 PM
Because the early 2000s kids grew up with flashy players like Carter, T-Mac, Kobe, Iverson etc.

They were amazed by these players in their childhood and now it is like imprinted in their brains that players like Iverson are better than the best players today. ********. I would take Dwyane Wade over Iverson any day, any time.

Hop off Iverson's crotch people. Yes he was an amazing ballhandler, scorer, and just a freak on the court, but that doesnt make him better than Wade. If you want to watch ankle breaking crossovers, and non stop scoring with no defense then just go watch AND1, and stop watching the NBA.

97NYer
06-08-2012, 11:48 PM
Iverson is 500 thousand times better than D Wade, quote me on that. Iverson at 29 or Wade at 29?

Hellcrooner
06-09-2012, 12:04 AM
because he had several great, high-profile games when a lot of us were young and impressionable.

And since i was in my 20s and nothing was shocking anymore thats why i didnt fall for the swindle.

willabeast77
06-09-2012, 12:12 AM
Iverson is 500 thousand times better than D Wade, quote me on that. Iverson at 29 or Wade at 29?

Based on what?

llemon
06-09-2012, 12:34 AM
Based on what?

Do you actually need to ask?

KnickNyKnick
06-09-2012, 12:50 AM
Iverson average 30ppg and 8 assist 2004-20005, then the next year averaged 33ppg and 8 assist. So what makes you think he had no interest in sharing the ball??? If he had anybody on those teams that could consistently put the ball in the basket he would have averaged 30+ppg and 10+assist a game. Do you know how insane that is????

ding ding ding ding ding!! AI could have easily won 3 rings with a top notch center

Hawkeye15
06-09-2012, 01:07 AM
Iverson average 30ppg and 8 assist 2004-20005, then the next year averaged 33ppg and 8 assist. So what makes you think he had no interest in sharing the ball??? If he had anybody on those teams that could consistently put the ball in the basket he would have averaged 30+ppg and 10+assist a game. Do you know how insane that is????

What is your point? That Iverson wanted to score? He did, but at the expense of those around him. Philly/AI fans try and bring up that he didn't have another star offensive player with him without realizing he didn't want one. Iverson wanted to take 30 shots a game.

Hawkeye15
06-09-2012, 01:08 AM
Yeah, take the easy way out.

Then lets talk..

KnickNyKnick
06-09-2012, 01:09 AM
Because the early 2000s kids grew up with flashy players like Carter, T-Mac, Kobe, Iverson etc.

They were amazed by these players in their childhood and now it is like imprinted in their brains that players like Iverson are better than the best players today. ********. I would take Dwyane Wade over Iverson any day, any time.

Hop off Iverson's crotch people. Yes he was an amazing ballhandler, scorer, and just a freak on the court, but that doesnt make him better than Wade. If you want to watch ankle breaking crossovers, and non stop scoring with no defense then just go watch AND1, and stop watching the NBA.

when Wade wins an mvp we can bring wade back into this convo.

4 scoring titles | 30ppg avg in playoffs. | led the league in steals 4 times. |
heck hes even close to matching wade in rebs all while being 5-11.

wades stats are not gonna get any better going forward. its been downhill since lbj joined.

wade needed shaq to win a ring. couldnt even make it without another superstar. i cant imagine how many rings he would have won with shaq in philly not 1 not 2 not 3 not 4 not 5 not 6.

youll need to prove your point with evidence. but good job good effort bro.

ArmLaker
06-09-2012, 01:17 AM
Why didn't Philly want to get AI sufficient help? Did the management enjoy watching the likes of guys like McKie, Old Webber, Kenny ugly fvking Thomas derail any chances of AI and Philly to win a ring? And to answer the question, AI>Wade

llemon
06-09-2012, 01:23 AM
Why didn't Philly want to get AI sufficient help? Did the management enjoy watching the likes of guys like McKie, Old Webber, Kenny ugly fvking Thomas derail any chances of AI and Philly to win a ring? And to answer the question, AI>Wade

Yes, Sixers management intentionally sabotaged their own team to spite Allen Iverson.

Sounds correct.

llemon
06-09-2012, 01:24 AM
when Wade wins an mvp we can bring wade back into this convo.

4 scoring titles | 30ppg avg in playoffs. | led the league in steals 4 times. |
heck hes even close to matching wade in rebs all while being 5-11.

wades stats are not gonna get any better going forward. its been downhill since lbj joined.

wade needed shaq to win a ring. couldnt even make it without another superstar. i cant imagine how many rings he would have won with shaq in philly not 1 not 2 not 3 not 4 not 5 not 6.

youll need to prove your point with evidence. but good job good effort bro.

Ain't stats grand?

llemon
06-09-2012, 01:27 AM
ding ding ding ding ding!! AI could have easily won 3 rings with a top notch center

Just 3? Why not 5...6.....7?

KnickNyKnick
06-09-2012, 01:31 AM
well easily 3 the other 4 would have been game 6-7ers lol

pd7631
06-09-2012, 01:38 AM
Why didn't Philly want to get AI sufficient help? Did the management enjoy watching the likes of guys like McKie, Old Webber, Kenny ugly fvking Thomas derail any chances of AI and Philly to win a ring? And to answer the question, AI>Wade

I don't doubt that they tried to get him help, but all you have to do is see the Nets trading their 1st round pick this year for Gerald Wallace to get a glimpse of how incompetent Billy King is as a general manager.

llemon
06-09-2012, 01:45 AM
I don't doubt that they tried to get him help, but all you have to do is see the Nets trading their 1st round pick this year for Gerald Wallace to get a glimpse of how incompetent Billy King is as a general manager.

So you admit that the Nets are the greatest team ever.

pd7631
06-09-2012, 01:47 AM
So you admit that the Nets are the greatest team ever.

What?

sixer04fan
06-09-2012, 01:51 AM
Overrated? Wade is DEFINITELY better? I'm hearing a lot of that crap around here. Some of you guys must either be too young to appreciate what Iverson did or have really short term memory. So sad...

That Guy Mooque
06-09-2012, 02:05 AM
Far too much hyperbole to have a rational discussion about this. Gave up after page 2. Let them hate.

llemon
06-09-2012, 02:09 AM
What?

Exactly

ArmLaker
06-09-2012, 02:12 AM
I don't doubt that they tried to get him help, but all you have to do is see the Nets trading their 1st round pick this year for Gerald Wallace to get a glimpse of how incompetent Billy King is as a general manager.

11 years man. Thats how much of AI's tenure as a sixer was wasted. 11 years is plenty of time for sorry *** management to do something. I wish I could rewind back and put him on the Lakers to form the greatest backcourt ever. This way he wouldn't have been viewed as an inferior player to Wade by fans who started watching the NBA 4 days ago. For a hardcore Lakers and Kobe fan, I'm extremely fond of AI as well as TMac(prime of course)

Losoway
06-09-2012, 02:13 AM
Iverson in his prime was unguardable point blank period

llemon
06-09-2012, 02:18 AM
Iverson in his prime was unguardable point blank period

It's amazing he shot so poorly.

llemon
06-09-2012, 02:22 AM
11 years man. Thats how much of AI's tenure as a sixer was wasted. 11 years is plenty of time for sorry *** management to do something. I wish I could rewind back and put him on the Lakers to form the greatest backcourt ever. This way he wouldn't have been viewed as an inferior player to Wade by fans who started watching the NBA 4 days ago. For a hardcore Lakers and Kobe fan, I'm extremely fond of AI as well as TMac(prime of course)

Yeah, and I saw Wilt, Russell and Jack Twyman.

Iverson is undeservedly overrated.

Jumi
06-09-2012, 03:20 AM
Sixers management dropped the ball on this one. Iverson was the only offense and Larry Brown made the defense. If that team had one legit bigman who wasn't over the hill, Iverson would've had at least one ring. They didn't draft well and the trades they made were awful for the most part. I see people on here asking about players that got better when they left the Sixers and throw the name out as if in a vaccum. Bowen(San Antonio made), Hughes(Washington made), etc. Most of the guy's teammates were either too old or too young. McKie and Snow fit well with what the Sixers did, but after that there was nothing else. They got rid of Van Horn for Pete's Sake.

For those who say he took too many shots, I'll take a chucker who's trying to win over losing any day of the week. FYI, his assist numbers weren't that bad either!

-Kobe24-TJ19-
06-09-2012, 03:39 AM
I can only imagine how Iverson's legacy would be different if he played with another superstar.

And don't tell me "A.I was too selfish to embrace a superstar", I can't even count how many times I heard A.I say "if only I had the chance to play with Shaq" (he and Shaq are good friends)

It really is something to ponder, especially when comparing Iverson to Kobe (please refrain from laughing, and continue to read)....

Kobe is selfish, he has a me-first attitude (although he plays it off in the media pretty well), but he's viewed in an entirely different light now and his legacy will obviously far outshine Iverson's because of his 5 championships and career longevity. Don't get me wrong, Iverson cannot even be mentioned in the same breathe as Kobe today.

But let's just put up the career #'s for arguments sake.

Bryant: 25.4 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 4.3 apg, 1.5 spg, 0.5 bpg, 3.0 TOpg, .450 FG%, .337 3pFG%
Iverson: 26.7 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 6.2 apg, 2.2 spg, 0.2 bpg, 3.5 TOpg, .425 FG%, .313 3pFG%

So what's the difference between how A.I approached the game and Kobe? Does Kobe making 2% more of his shots and turning the ball over .5 times less make him less selfish and significantly more efficient? I would expect a SG who is 6 inches shorter than the other to have a slightly tougher time getting easy looks, no?

The reason Iverson is berated is because Iverson never won a ring, he was immature when he was younger, and his downfall was incredibly fast. But to say he is overrated at this point is a fallacy, if anything it's hard to find people who actually RESPECT A.I anymore, and that's totally understandable with how he's portrayed by the media.

I honestly think his legacy would be a lot different if he had a real #2 option instead of a 32 year old Webber, 31 y/o Glenn Robinson, 33 y/o Mutumbo, and Keith Van Horn.... smh. Past is the past though.

Why would you even bother with worthless regular statistics?

LakersMaster24
06-09-2012, 03:41 AM
when Wade wins an mvp we can bring wade back into this convo.

4 scoring titles | 30ppg avg in playoffs. | led the league in steals 4 times. |
heck hes even close to matching wade in rebs all while being 5-11.

wades stats are not gonna get any better going forward. its been downhill since lbj joined.

wade needed shaq to win a ring. couldnt even make it without another superstar. i cant imagine how many rings he would have won with shaq in philly not 1 not 2 not 3 not 4 not 5 not 6.

youll need to prove your point with evidence. but good job good effort bro.

Just keep on riding A.I. buddy.

Iverson GOAT.

QueensG
06-09-2012, 04:20 AM
AI is extremely underrated. He was the best small Guy to EVER play the game! 5'11 165 and he would score at will and bring it every single ****ing night!

If he played today he would still be very dominant even at his height and when he played back then their were better more dominant big men in the league. Wade would not survive back then.

They would make sure Wade has a reason to fall on his *** over every drive. iverson I believe landed on his feet. Iverson also changed the culture of the game so you put all this together and yes he is better then Wade ever was.

QueensG
06-09-2012, 04:23 AM
Just keep on riding A.I. buddy.

Iverson GOAT.[/QUOTE]

so he gave you tons of legit stats and this is the best you could come up with?? you lose buddy. Iverson wins

naps
06-09-2012, 04:59 AM
Allen Iverson is one of my favorite players of all time but he's nowhere near Wade. Wade is a complete player and has proved himself in all the biggest stages possible. AI could score a lot and he was so ****ing exciting to watch. But even I know he's vastly inefficient and never gave a **** on defense. Most people look at per game stats and make their judgement based on that which tells all they know about the game.

Having said that it's sad to see how some people bash the **** out of him. If you wanna criticize the man do it like Chronz. Chronz makes his points when he says something but most people just **** over AI with no backup whatsoever.

QueensG
06-09-2012, 06:58 AM
why the **** are we comparing AI and Wade anyway? where's the correlation. is iverson 6'4? no did iverson have a better supporting cast? no

jericho
06-09-2012, 11:26 AM
WADE couldnt even get out of first round after winning that weak *** 'ring' and couldnt get out of 1st rd before BRON took his talents to S.BEACH, and he played in like 50games that season they only won 11 and a total of 15


im always open and glad to teaching you and LLEMON on this guys 'game' but this is getting ridiculous on questioning a guy who had to carry a squad for a decade and not be BRON's size/height ..but same height as NATE ROBINSON ...but lets talk about his PER or fg pct to make yall look right, its just like 3steals per game doesnt mean nothing, well him shooting 42pct and having to take 25-40 shots per contest doesnt mean nothing either,its jus his degree of difficulty was easily the hardest in league amongst 'star's carrying teams with just a 1punch...CP3/D.WILL/ROSE/NASH/ or whoever name you want to insert would not have any success with those rosters he had to roll with, so stop with all this blasphemous poppycock

especially DWADE, we already seen wat happened from 2007-2010 after winning the 'ring' ...AI never fell off, before his MVP and FINALS run and right after,he just never did

i would have loved to see BRON stay in CAVS for at least a decade..but i forget he said he didnt wanna have bad knees when he retired(bball language saying he doesnt want to end up like a KG/AI and getting no help and carrying load like they did in PHILLY/MINNY)..so he went and teamed up with a org. who has a chance to reach multiple FINALS app.,dont know how many they will win,but they are 'built' for it, unlike any of AI's squads,...even that FINALS squad wasnt built to go deep

for those saying that he didnt want to play with another 'scorer' thats the biggest hogwash in history and its just a 'copy and paste' analogy for yall to hold on to

It was documented that he had 'cried' on 1998 draft day when his firstclass top notch org. picked up a weaker combo version of AI(why draft him when you have top notch combo G?) in HUGHES instead of drafting the wing scorer to start with him and compliment him better in P.PIERCE, so how is that not a trait of a winner? or maybe he felt like a loser since he knew they ****ed up bad ...

answer this CHRONZ ..wats a better 1-2punch that you would build with looking back in hindsight HUGHES/AI or PIERCE/AI combo?you can even lie about it to make yourself feel good

you think AI went to CROCE/KING and said get me VANHORN/M.JACKSON/COLEMAN/DEKE and HARPRING/MCKIE/BELL/LYNCH ,those are some of the slowest bigs and weakest wings of alltime, in history of the game, but i guess a supertalent would want lesser and not equal talent?only at the wonderful world of PSD,gotta respect it

i have not seen anybody respond to this 2 things and for all the guys bringing the ring argument lets not forget that the refs handed them that ring back in 06 lol :p

i would pick ai any day over a floping dwade
again pair ai with a legit superstar and he could have won multiple rings he always had over the hill players or overated glorified scrubs by some people here

KnickNyKnick
06-09-2012, 11:34 AM
Just keep on riding A.I. buddy.

Iverson GOAT.

lol im not even a AI fan dude. Im just pointing out facts. wade still has a lot to do and has plenty of time to do so, to be better/ match AI. but that's not gonna happen with that circus in miami.

you need to overlook personalities. i thinks thats the reason AI was under appreciated. dont rate him for the man he is, rate his game. facts bro, facts.

willabeast77
06-09-2012, 12:09 PM
lol im not even a AI fan dude. Im just pointing out facts. wade still has a lot to do and has plenty of time to do so, to be better/ match AI. but that's not gonna happen with that circus in miami.

you need to overlook personalities. i thinks thats the reason AI was under appreciated. dont rate him for the man he is, rate his game. facts bro, facts.

Wade has already had a better career than Iverson. Better numbers and a title.

2-ONE-5
06-09-2012, 12:34 PM
^how many scoring titles and MVP's has Wade won?

Bos_Sports4Life
06-09-2012, 12:39 PM
so he gave you tons of legit stats and this is the best you could come up with?? you lose buddy. Iverson wins

All he did was use Volume stats, Thats great and all if its combined with good efficiency..

REG SEASON

.518 TS%
.126 WS/48


PLAYOFFS (71 Games)

.489 TS%
.109 WS/48


His Reg season numbers were good, but not great. His efficiency is quite a bit worse than a guy like Pierce.

In the playoffs? His numbers are very meh. .489 TS% isn't good in any way...

willabeast77
06-09-2012, 01:02 PM
^how many scoring titles and MVP's has Wade won?

Wade has 1 scoring title and no MVP's. Scoring titles are overrated anyway. Iverson winning his scoring titles by taking 25+ shots on high 30's%-low 40's% isn't all that impressive. Give Iverson a better team and he wouldn't had needed to shoot as much as he did. The same can be said about Wade but in opposite. If Wade were to shoot as much as Iverson did in his prime, his ppg would be higher than Iverson's but on a higher field goal %. Anyway, Wade's best season is superior to Iverson's.

Swashcuff
06-09-2012, 01:05 PM
I don't even bother to post in A.I. related threads anyone because of the kind of junk I read on both sides. There is one person I've ever heard say A.I. is top 10 but quite a few who has said he isn't top 200 because of the mere fact that they hate on him because of his style on and off the court and the person they perceived him to be.

One of the most misunderstood players of all time. Anyone with an open who actually took the time to breakdown his career and understand his #s wouldn't under or overrate him they'd rate him accurately as I do. Which is anywhere between the top 30-45 players of all time.

I'm going to be cocky here and say I can shred any anti A.I. argument that anyone can bring forward whether it be based on his persona, advanced stats, supporting casts etc etc etc as I have done in the past with nothing but facts and not here say and rumours that were proven to be untrue.

Bos_Sports4Life
06-09-2012, 01:21 PM
I don't even bother to post in A.I. related threads anyone because of the kind of junk I read on both sides. There is one person I've ever heard say A.I. is top 10 but quite a few who has said he isn't top 200 because of the mere fact that they hate on him because of his style on and off the court and the person they perceived him to be.

One of the most misunderstood players of all time. Anyone with an open who actually took the time to breakdown his career and understand his #s wouldn't under or overrate him they'd rate him accurately as I do. Which is anywhere between the top 30-45 players of all time.

I'm going to be cocky here and say I can shred any anti A.I. argument that anyone can bring forward whether it be based on his persona, advanced stats, supporting casts etc etc etc as I have done in the past with nothing but facts and not here say and rumours that were proven to be untrue.

I think he's more so in the 70th-80th range..

* 77th in total winshares

* 205th In WS/48

Now, While I'd agree win shares IS overrated, it is a Decent guage. His efficiency in the reg season is nothing special and in the playoffs it was bad...

Personally speaking, Considering his huge Ego, I wouldn't pick him in my top 100.

Swashcuff
06-09-2012, 01:25 PM
I think he's more so in the 70th-80th range..

* 77th in total winshares

* 205th In WS/48

Now, While I'd agree win shares IS overrated, it is a Decent guage. His efficiency in the reg season is nothing special and in the playoffs it was bad...

The only thing that makes him even a top 70 players is his volume was way up..

Dude I don't care what you say you are not capable of holding an advanced statistical discussion with me especially when the topic is Allen Iverson.

TheNumber37
06-09-2012, 01:26 PM
AI is top 50. never really had a team with him. if he played with wade and bosh or bosh and bron in his prime, the stories would be different.

honestly he needed to be paired with a prime kg, Duncan, or shaq, not an ageing Chris Webber

BlinkManJan02
06-09-2012, 01:32 PM
Iverson didn't have jack in comparison to Wade, for teammates. I wish he would have gotten a ring.

2-ONE-5
06-09-2012, 02:04 PM
Dude I don't care what you say you are not capable of holding an advanced statistical discussion with me especially when the topic is Allen Iverson.

yea agreed. keep the advanced stats in baseball discussions.

llemon
06-09-2012, 02:48 PM
AI is top 50. never really had a team with him. if he played with wade and bosh or bosh and bron in his prime, the stories would be different.

honestly he needed to be paired with a prime kg, Duncan, or shaq, not an ageing Chris Webber

Iverson would have been asking for a trade

llemon
06-09-2012, 02:50 PM
Dude I don't care what you say you are not capable of holding an advanced statistical discussion with me especially when the topic is Allen Iverson.

Prove it. Have a advanced stats discussion with him about Allen Iverson.

Mrphilly
06-09-2012, 03:32 PM
What is your point? That Iverson wanted to score? He did, but at the expense of those around him. Philly/AI fans try and bring up that he didn't have another star offensive player with him without realizing he didn't want one. Iverson wanted to take 30 shots a game.

Did Iverson tell you that? That is pure nonsense!!! You are silly if you think Iverson wanted to play with scrubs just so he could shoot 30 shots.

Bos_Sports4Life
06-09-2012, 05:07 PM
Dude I don't care what you say you are not capable of holding an advanced statistical discussion with me especially when the topic is Allen Iverson.

:laugh:

You saying Iverson belongs in the top 40 all time is like me saying Paul Pierce belongs in the top 40, And imo I'd have the better argument..

* Pierce is 34th all time in win shares/ Iverson is 77th

* Pierce is 57th all time in WS48/ Iverson is 205th


And that doesn't even include the solid edge pierce has in the playoffs..


Either way I'd have Pierce outside the top 50 and Iverson outside the top 70.

If I was trying to build an all time team that would work good with eachother? Iverson would be one of the last HOF players i'd pick..The man has a HUGE ego, Which is why he's not even in the NBA anymore and Pierce had another solid season at the age of 34 (7.0 War Season)

Swashcuff
06-09-2012, 05:33 PM
What is your point? That Iverson wanted to score? He did, but at the expense of those around him. Philly/AI fans try and bring up that he didn't have another star offensive player with him without realizing he didn't want one. Iverson wanted to take 30 shots a game.

Hawk do I really have to go over this with you again? A.I. was begggggggging Philly to find him some offensive help especially after the 00-01 season. He welcomed Big Puppy with open arms but he was nothing but a shell of his former self, he's been on record of saying so many times that he always wanted to play with a player of Chris Webber's calibre and it was one of the happiest times in his career when he heard that we were able to get him on our team. A.I. pleaded with Management to get him some help.

The notion that A.I. didn't want any help is one of the foolish things that can be said about him.

Problem with A.I. however was that he wanted to play with players he respected (same way he wanted to play for coaches he respected which wasn't the right way) and trusted in terms of what they brought to the floor. He was no different from Kobe Bryant when Kobe played with Smush and Kwame.

A.I. ALWAYS welcomed his teammates with open arms which is why there is not a single player (outside of Speedy Claxton and John Salmons) who has had anything bad to say about the man.

IMO if someone says Philly A.I. didn't want any help then they didn't follow A.I. in the very least when he was a member of our organization.

Swashcuff
06-09-2012, 05:36 PM
He's top 100, but as it's been said, the ***** didn't play defense. Can't put him among the GOAT's because he played 1 side of the ball so well.

Well you corrected yourself somewhat on the follow up post but A.I. wasn't only getting his steals playing the passing lanes like most ignorant fans say he also got a great majority of them playing on his man. He was never really good at staying in-front his man but he did give great effort on D. His focus however was not in the right place. To say A.I. didn't play defense is foolish beyond comprehension.

To say he wasn't good on the defensive end when it came to guard his man is %100 accurate but the man played D.

xxplayerxx23
06-09-2012, 06:09 PM
I think a lot of people dont like the fact that iverson dressed a different way, Didnt like the way he spoke, they just dont like him personally so they forget how dominate of a player the man was. He was unguardable, took a team on his shoulders to get them to the finals, If the guy had a 2nd opition he would of had mutiple rings

Swashcuff
06-09-2012, 06:11 PM
:laugh:

You saying Iverson belongs in the top 40 all time is like me saying Paul Pierce belongs in the top 40, And imo I'd have the better argument..

* Pierce is 34th all time in win shares/ Iverson is 77th

* Pierce is 57th all time in WS48/ Iverson is 205th


And that doesn't even include the solid edge pierce has in the playoffs..


Either way I'd have Pierce outside the top 50 and Iverson outside the top 70.

If I was trying to build an all time team that would work good with eachother? Iverson would be one of the last HOF players i'd pick..The man has a HUGE ego, Which is why he's not even in the NBA anymore and Pierce had another solid season at the age of 34 (7.0 War Season)

Okay so lets look at how foolish this argument really is okay. This argument based on a singular metric and nothing else okay.

For the first 5 years of the 00s Allen Iverson was 2nd among all guards in the entire NBA in DWS. Better than Kobe Bryant, Eddie Jones, Doug Christie, Manu Ginobili, Gary Payton, etc etc etc as well as being 1st among all in terms of DWS/48 with 300 or more games played over that exact same time span.

Now tell me this could there possibly in the history of the world have a possible argument that Allen Iverson was the best defensive guard in the NBA for a 5 year period?

HELL NO.

I rest my case.

Like I said before it makes no sense arguing with you because your arguments makes no sense. If it were PSK, Chronz, Hawkeye15, KoB, Tredigs, etc etc I'd entertain the discussion. It's not its you a poster who is notorious for not understand context with stats and how it translates from player to player in each and every circumstance and exactly how to put them into context. You go based on rankings and base your opinion on that.

Swashcuff
06-09-2012, 06:13 PM
1.) How can you say that AI wouldn't give the ball to a good offensive big man? He never had the opportunity. BTW, C-Webb got 19 shots a game playing with AI. I'd say he shared the ball plenty with him.

2.) You could play that game with pretty much every player in the league. "OMG, Toni Kukoc averaged more pts, reb, and ast when Michael Jordan retired. MJ was holding him back!"

He is on my ignore list. It makes no sense even attempting to even bother with him.

Swashcuff
06-09-2012, 06:16 PM
Nope, I don't think Iverson had any interest in sharing the ball, therefore his management needed to get great, versatile defenders, spot up shooters, offensive rebounders, and slashers to go along with a big man that could cover up any perimeter defensive mistakes, many of which were made by AI when he was trying to disrupt passing lanes and taking himself out of plays.

You see what you said there bro. You said you think. A.I. said otherwise and proved it with his play on numerous occasions.

Eagles710
06-09-2012, 06:17 PM
Boooo this man!! Bboooooooooooooooooooo

llemon
06-09-2012, 06:24 PM
You see what you said there bro. You said you think. A.I. said otherwise and proved it with his play on numerous occasions.

You mean you think he proved it, and you believe what AI said.

Swashcuff
06-09-2012, 06:31 PM
Look at your avatar and sig. I am sorry, but there is no possibility in having a rational conversation concerning Iverson with you.

Greatest chucker in history, and his game drew non-Philly fans because it was exciting and flashy, not because he was fundamentally a good player, teammate, or showed an unmatched work ethic.

You once said that Larry Bird is the only player that you get irrational about I admitted that its the same with A.I. but Hawk you have people around here saying that A.I. has never done anything good, he's scum, never deserved to be in the NBA, isn't a top 200 player all time, never passed the ball, is a horrible person etc etc and you're going to be mad at an A.I. lover for being irrational. I mean seriously you defend how much LeBron gets hated or how misunderstood KG is but then don't see the irrational thinking of those that say things like that about A.I.?

Its like you get so angry at those who irrationally A.I. that you completely ignore the completely false and baseless claims (and even make some of them yourself like A.I. never wanted to pass the ball) made by others.

Though I am a huge A.I. fan boy I can always admit the truth. I believe due to the fact that he thought his speed would get him by all the time he never thought to develop his entire game and also take better care of his body (thus preserving his supreme athleticism a bit more) and its a major reason why we'd see Ray Allen, Kobe Bryant, Steve Nash, Marcus Camby (some of the last remaining players of the 96 draft class stay this well for this long. I think he gambled way too much and made many many poor personal decisions with his life and I also think that he was too stubborn and was a horrendous team player in Detroit and Memphis where he gave fuel to the fire of those calling him a quitter and a cancer.

However Rip Hamilton has been on record of saying that 2nd to Ben Wallace Allen Iverson is the best teammate he has ever had and was a huge inspiration to many that he has played with and this is the Allen Iverson than many Detroit fans have said ruined their franchise.

The man wasn't just beloved by his fans but also by his peers. For you to say A.I. was never a good teammate is crazy talk dude. The problem with A.I. was that he wanted his way way too much and when he didn't he only made things worst for himself.

2-ONE-5
06-09-2012, 07:05 PM
:laugh:

You saying Iverson belongs in the top 40 all time is like me saying Paul Pierce belongs in the top 40, And imo I'd have the better argument..

* Pierce is 34th all time in win shares/ Iverson is 77th

* Pierce is 57th all time in WS48/ Iverson is 205th


And that doesn't even include the solid edge pierce has in the playoffs..


Either way I'd have Pierce outside the top 50 and Iverson outside the top 70.

If I was trying to build an all time team that would work good with eachother? Iverson would be one of the last HOF players i'd pick..The man has a HUGE ego, Which is why he's not even in the NBA anymore and Pierce had another solid season at the age of 34 (7.0 War Season)

are u suggesting that Pierce if Pierce took Iversons place the Sixers would have been better?

I Rock Shaqs
06-09-2012, 07:07 PM
Better question shpould be why is the Op trying to get attention by saying an under sized scoring machine and one of the best little men of the NBA is over-rated.

llemon
06-09-2012, 07:15 PM
are u suggesting that Pierce if Pierce took Iversons place the Sixers would have been better?

Having Pierce and not AI would have forced Sixers to get a real PG & a real SG.

2-ONE-5
06-09-2012, 07:25 PM
so you are now suggesting that the Sixers didnt get a "real" PG or SG bcuz of Iverson?

do u people actually read what you write?

LakersMaster24
06-09-2012, 07:50 PM
Just keep on riding A.I. buddy.

Iverson GOAT.

so he gave you tons of legit stats and this is the best you could come up with?? you lose buddy. Iverson wins[/QUOTE]

LOL I am not going to waste my time on him. Compare the advanced stats of Iverson to Wade. Youll see who wins.

llemon
06-09-2012, 07:51 PM
so you are now suggesting that the Sixers didnt get a "real" PG or SG bcuz of Iverson?

do u people actually read what you write?

That is exactly what I'm saying.

Tell me why I'm wrong.

Bos_Sports4Life
06-09-2012, 07:58 PM
are u suggesting that Pierce if Pierce took Iversons place the Sixers would have been better?

Yes, Pierce was simply better...

Iverson had a better supporting cast, He had one of the leagues best defensive big men when he reached the ECF..

Pierces best help early on was antoine who was TERRIBLE!!!!!

Bos_Sports4Life
06-09-2012, 08:05 PM
Okay so lets look at how foolish this argument really is okay. This argument based on a singular metric and nothing else okay.

For the first 5 years of the 00s Allen Iverson was 2nd among all guards in the entire NBA in DWS. Better than Kobe Bryant, Eddie Jones, Doug Christie, Manu Ginobili, Gary Payton, etc etc etc as well as being 1st among all in terms of DWS/48 with 300 or more games played over that exact same time span.

Now tell me this could there possibly in the history of the world have a possible argument that Allen Iverson was the best defensive guard in the NBA for a 5 year period?

HELL NO.

I rest my case.


OWS is more accurate than DWS obviously, Since teammates influence DWS's much more..

So yes..you are 100% right, if ANYTHING, Iversons win shares were Inflated...Good job helping my case even more


Like I said before it makes no sense arguing with you because your arguments makes no sense. If it were PSK, Chronz, Hawkeye15, KoB, Tredigs, etc etc I'd entertain the discussion. It's not its you a poster who is notorious for not understand context with stats and how it translates from player to player in each and every circumstance and exactly how to put them into context. You go based on rankings and base your opinion on that.

Keep thinking a volume shooting guard That had a TS% BELOW .500 in the playoffs is a top 40 player or whatever. Personally speaking, I'll take 23 ppg/.550 TS% player...Too each his own

ThunderousDemon
06-09-2012, 08:10 PM
What is NBA.com going to do with all those,"Beat the Heat t-shirts", if Boston wins tonight. For this sole reason I predict that the Heat will come out victorious in tonight's game.

Swashcuff
06-09-2012, 08:50 PM
OWS is more accurate than DWS obviously, Since teammates influence DWS's much more..

So yes..you are 100% right, if ANYTHING, Iversons win shares were Inflated...Good job helping my case even more



Keep thinking a volume shooting guard That had a TS% BELOW .500 in the playoffs is a top 40 player or whatever. Personally speaking, I'll take 23 ppg/.550 TS% player...Too each his own

Actually you are completely wrong. Every player in league history who ranks above A.I. had their WS "inflated" at one point or the other by their supporting casts.

I actually proved your baseless reasoning wrong.

I also love the fact that you said that you'd take a .550% 23 PPG scorer over A.I. because when A.I. actually went to a team that he wasn't the only true offensive threat he scored 26 with 7 assists on a TS% near that of .570. with 8.9 OWS (more than Paul Pierce ever had and you were the one who said it was more accurate).

Give A.I. average offensive help and watch his overall production in every area excluding his volume scoring increase. That's what solid supporting casts would do for a undersized score first SG.

These are the intricacies that you clearly can't comprehend I mean after all you're using 2 career metrics of 2 different players in different circumstances without using any form of context whatsoever.

IF people like you would actually be rational and attempt to open your mind about the player there is no way you'd come into threads such as these to perpetuate the garbage you do but rather appreciate him for his good AND his bad instead of what you incorrectly perceive to be the bad.

Alayla
06-09-2012, 11:28 PM
people are way to hung up on stats they dont tell the whole story and anyone who would take 2006/2009 wade over 2001 AI, DOES NOT WACTH ENOUGH BASKETBALL.
And for what its worth Give Iverson Shaq or some last era Equevent to LBJ and BOSH and i think iverson would have more rings then he could wear people forget wade has NEVER had a BAD cast by any strecth.

STL Don
06-09-2012, 11:28 PM
You can't overrate a 6ft guard who led a pretty ****** team to the finals almost all by himself.

Bos_Sports4Life
06-09-2012, 11:36 PM
[QUOTE]I also love the fact that you said that you'd take a .550% 23 PPG scorer over A.I. because when A.I. actually went to a team that he wasn't the only true offensive threat he scored 26 with 7 assists on a TS% near that of .570. with 8.9 OWS (more than Paul Pierce ever had and you were the one who said it was more accurate).



Top 10 seasons for each

PP- AI

8.3 < 8.9
7.7 < 8.8
7.3 = 7.3
6.9 > 6.3
6.7 > 5.3
6.5 > 5.0
5.5 > 4.3
5.3 > 4.0
5.2 > 3.3
5.0 > 3.1

AI Has the top 2 seasons, 3rd is even and the 4th-10th? Belongs to pierce. Pierce from the looks of it has another 2 5.0+ OWS seasons left in him..



Give A.I. average offensive help and watch his overall production in every area excluding his volume scoring increase. That's what solid supporting casts would do for a undersized score first SG.

Iverson from ALL ACCOUNTS has a Huge ego. Pierce himself has a big ego, But nothing really compared to iversons..

As for better supporting casts, During the season Pierce added 8.3 OWS while his 2nd best teammate on offense according to OWS? Delonte freaking west..

That season? Pierce managed 24.7 PPG with a TS% of .587



These are the intricacies that you clearly can't comprehend I mean after all you're using 2 career metrics of 2 different players in different circumstances without using any form of context whatsoever.

Pierce PROVED he could do it with a ****** supporting cast over and over again. Both had primes in a weak east.



IF people like you would actually be rational and attempt to open your mind about the player there is no way you'd come into threads such as these to perpetuate the garbage you do but rather appreciate him for his good AND his bad instead of what you incorrectly perceive to be the bad.


What have I said that was wrong?

* I said he doesn't belong in the top 45-50..And really, He doesn't.

* I said if picking an all time team and there was a draft, I would not want him as a top 100 pick. He's not a great defender, and he's not an efficient scorer.

Basically, He'd take shots away from the more efficient guys.


My biggest problem I have with AI is this. He's not good enough to win as "the man" imo and He wouldn't accept being a #2 option.

llemon
06-09-2012, 11:40 PM
You can't overrate a 6ft guard who led a pretty ****** team to the finals almost all by himself.

Absolutely not by himself

llemon
06-09-2012, 11:42 PM
And for what its worth Give Iverson Shaq or some last era Equevent to LBJ and BOSH and i think iverson would have more rings then he could wear people forget wade has NEVER had a BAD cast by any strecth.

Allen Iverson would have wound up asking for a trade.

Swashcuff
06-09-2012, 11:46 PM
Top 10 seasons for each

PP- AI

8.3 < 8.9
7.7 < 8.8
7.3 = 7.3
6.9 > 6.3
6.7 > 5.3
6.5 > 5.0
5.5 > 4.3
5.3 > 4.0
5.2 > 3.3
5.0 > 3.1

AI Has the top 2 seasons, 3rd is even and the 4th-10th? Belongs to pierce. Pierce from the looks of it has another 2 5.0+ OWS seasons left in him..




Iverson from ALL ACCOUNTS has a Huge ego. Pierce himself has a big ego, But nothing really compared to iversons..

As for better supporting casts, During the season Pierce added 8.3 OWS while his 2nd best teammate on offense according to OWS? Delonte freaking west..

That season? Pierce managed 24.7 PPG with a TS% of .587




Pierce PROVED he could do it with a ****** supporting cast over and over again. Both had primes in a weak east.





What have I said that was wrong?

* I said he doesn't belong in the top 45-50..And really, He doesn't.

* I said if picking an all time team and there was a draft, I would not want him as a top 100 pick. He's not a great defender, and he's not an efficient scorer.

Basically, He'd take shots away from the more efficient guys.


My biggest problem I have with AI is this. He's not good enough to win as "the man" imo and He wouldn't accept being a #2 option.

An entire post of no context and no understanding.

A.I. couldn't win as "the man" when he was never given a winning type supporting cast and then you say he'd never accept a #2 option but he clearly showed that in Denver.

It makes no sense debating with you because you lack all form of understanding. I'm not even making this an Allen Iverson vs Paul Pierce argument I'm basically pointing out how baseless your argument is. You ignore all the most significant factors for each instance and go with what his statistical output was.

I told you already I'm not even going to bother with you you are not worth it.

Bos_Sports4Life
06-09-2012, 11:54 PM
A.I. couldn't win as "the man" when he was never given a winning type supporting cast and then you say he'd never accept a #2 option but he clearly showed that in Denver.

How did he accept the #2 role?

Fact is, Everwhere he went he seemed "unhappy" (Esp later on) And had too big of an ego to accept smaller roles...


I told you already I'm not even going to bother with you you are not worth it.

You have YET to tell me what you dissagreed me with

- I said he wasn't a top 45 player of all time
- I have pierce (Who again, I don't put in my top 45) Ahead of AI.

Swashcuff
06-10-2012, 12:02 AM
How did he accept the #2 role?

Fact is, Everwhere he went he seemed "unhappy" (Esp later on) And had too big of an ego to accept smaller roles...



You have YET to tell me what you dissagreed me with

- I said he wasn't a top 45 player of all time
- I have pierce (Who again, I don't put in my top 45) Ahead of AI.

Dude this right here is why you shouldn't be a part of this conversation. You saying ish like that is like me saying Bill Russell wasn't a good teammate and only cared about looking good. A.I. LOVED playing with Melo in Denver was told the world on many occasions that he accepted he was no longer "the man" and this was Melo's team and he was going there to help Melo win if that's not accepting a lesser role then I really think you have even less of a clue of what you're talking about that I thought before.

llemon
06-10-2012, 12:06 AM
A.I. couldn't win as "the man" when he was never given a winning type supporting cast and then you say he'd never accept a #2 option but he clearly showed that in Denver.

That '2nd option' role with Denver is up for debate, and Denver was a pretty talented team that AI couldn't prevent from getting swept in the 1st rd.

Bos_Sports4Life
06-10-2012, 12:21 AM
Dude this right here is why you shouldn't be a part of this conversation. You saying ish like that is like me saying Bill Russell wasn't a good teammate and only cared about looking good. A.I. LOVED playing with Melo in Denver was told the world on many occasions that he accepted he was no longer "the man" and this was Melo's team and he was going there to help Melo win if that's not accepting a lesser role then I really think you have even less of a clue of what you're talking about that I thought before.

AI lead the team in shots :laugh:
How is that taking a lesser role??


The reason his career was cut short was 100% because of his ego, you can't deny that.

He could have been a solid 6th man somewhere imo and POSSIBLY work himself into a starting lineup by producing, But he refused. In the end he burned to many bridges and no team came knocking...

And you have YET to tell me what it was you dissagreed with me with...