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View Full Version : Time for AA to step up



bomber0104
06-07-2012, 11:15 PM
Its now on him to go out and get another bullpen arm.. we have a total of 3 capable relievers in our pen (Janssen, Oliver, and Perez) and only one of them is a righty..

You can't expect to compete when more than half your pen has an ERA over 4.

Where the **** was he when Frieri was traded to the Angels for Amarista (middling prospect). Frieri went 13 innings before giving up his first hit pitching for the Angels. Why is it such a struggle for AA to find capable pen arms when he is so good at doing everything else?

Everyone will tell you that pen arms are dime a dozen but it sure doesn't seem that way

we are easily in 1st place with an average bullepn.. and its time for this crap to get fixed

rapsjaysfan88
06-07-2012, 11:20 PM
I sayed this like two weeks , our pen Is once again costing us a division lead

KidDraco
06-07-2012, 11:25 PM
I sayed this like two weeks , our pen Is once again costing us a division lead

i think we'd be a good 16 games above .500 if pen wasn't this crap :mad:

Eagles4Lyfe
06-07-2012, 11:32 PM
Finding a BP arm isn't the only thing he's bad at.
Don't forget that manager he hired :facepalm: worst mistake ever and a mistake that I don't sadly being fixed for a long while.

DeRozan10
06-07-2012, 11:34 PM
marcus stroman

boooooooooooooom. problem solved.

he will save this team

DeRozan10
06-07-2012, 11:35 PM
seriously though where the **** is santos at!

FlakeyFool
06-07-2012, 11:35 PM
I don't think Farrell could manage at McDonalds nonetheless a MLB team

Tmath
06-07-2012, 11:44 PM
What annoys me is that he spent the whole offseason "addressing" the bullpen and nothing else. What a waste of an offseason that was...

C-ross12
06-07-2012, 11:48 PM
I was thinking you guys could solve a lot of your problems with one deal with the cubs. Some combination of Dempster, Garza, LaHair, Russell and Camp would do you guys wonders.

bomber0104
06-07-2012, 11:53 PM
I was thinking you guys could solve a lot of your problems with one deal with the cubs. Some combination of Dempster, Garza, LaHair, Russell and Camp would do you guys wonders.

yeah thats what we need.. Shawn Camp

Eagles4Lyfe
06-07-2012, 11:54 PM
Pass on all of them except maybe Garza..
Lahair is no different than Edwin at best.
We need a Konerko or Dunn a proven veteran thats savy and is consistant.

C-ross12
06-07-2012, 11:54 PM
yeah thats what we need.. Shawn Camp

:laugh2: Dont hate on Camp. Hes been REAL good for us.

bomber0104
06-07-2012, 11:55 PM
:laugh2: Dont hate on Camp. Hes been REAL good for us.

yeah but there is a reason we released him this spring

Eagles4Lyfe
06-07-2012, 11:56 PM
how are Camps splits at home and road??

C-ross12
06-07-2012, 11:57 PM
Yea.. thats what I'm trying to figure out. Other then Russell hes been our best RP.

LechWalesa
06-07-2012, 11:59 PM
Camp was decent and then good the 2 seasons before. Last year was probably just a down year for him.

FlakeyFool
06-08-2012, 12:03 AM
farrell needs to stop worrying about soaping joses bum in the shower after games and focus on managing

craigerlee
06-08-2012, 12:07 AM
I don't really think it's necessary to go out and make a panic trade for a reliever, especially when Santos is coming back soon and Stroman could potentially make it up here month or so.

MrForever
06-08-2012, 01:03 AM
seriously though where the **** is santos at!

I Totally forgot about him even being on the team

dballss
06-08-2012, 01:10 AM
1-2 hitters poor avg and OBP
4-5 power bat
rotation inconsistency and inexperience
poor bullpen
consistent questionable management decisions

this team is full of holes...we're only in the playoff race as of now cus other teams have struggled too

nithanyo
06-08-2012, 01:36 AM
AA's to-do list:

1) An Ace for the front of the rotation.

2) Someone to bat cleanup. Encarnasion is playing over his head and would be nice to have an intimidating bat other than Bautista in the lineup.

3)A reliable reliever. This should fix itself if get ourselves a true #1 for our rotation especially with santos coming off the DL.

MrForever
06-08-2012, 01:47 AM
AA's to-do list:

1) An Ace for the front of the rotation.

2) Someone to bat cleanup. Encarnasion is playing over his head and would be nice to have an intimidating bat other than Bautista in the lineup.

3)A reliable reliever. This should fix itself if get ourselves a true #1 for our rotation especially with santos coming off the DL.

I really doubt there are any aces being shopped right now and I'd rather not give up what we would have to give up to get one. The rotation is solid and the team is stacked with pitching prospects. What the rotation needs is a veteran number 2 arm. That's more realistic.

nithanyo
06-08-2012, 02:40 AM
I really doubt there are any aces being shopped right now and I'd rather not give up what we would have to give up to get one. The rotation is solid and the team is stacked with pitching prospects. What the rotation needs is a veteran number 2 arm. That's more realistic.

IF you look at our current rotation/ prospects all of them are number 2/3 pitchers.

We don't have a guy that is a guaranteed 7+ innings. Obviously you have to give up talent to get talent, and teams aren't openly shopping aces but its AA's job to ask around.

Id trade players like d'arnaud, Lawrie, Gose etc. if its for the right player.

wamco
06-08-2012, 03:34 AM
Pass on all of them except maybe Garza..
Lahair is no different than Edwin at best.
We need a Konerko or Dunn a proven veteran thats savy and is consistant.

so dunn is done being the whipping boy for that evil free agency market, glad that is done.

The_Jet11
06-08-2012, 05:36 AM
We need that undeniable superstar player, to complement Jose. Felix Hernandez would be perfect. If there is any chance to acquire him, you do. Every GM in the game is interested in at type of talent, so if the opportunity presents itself, I am certain AA makes the move.

If he got Felix for anything less than a "King's Ransom" I would be thrilled.

JPA, Gose, Syndergaard, and Drabek might at least get them a call back..

wamco
06-08-2012, 06:28 AM
probably, but AA wouldn't like to hear what the GM has to say about that.

They have Montero, why trade for JPA?

Korac
06-08-2012, 07:56 AM
Kind of amusing that folks on these boards were raving about AA's additions to the BP in the off season (I even remember some folks saying we now had the best BP in baseball) and now are ripping him for those same acquisitions. :p

Look, clearly the BP issues need to be addressed in some way as too many pitchers aren't pitching to expectations/career norms, but panic moves are what kill seasons. Blowing up the team, or giving up the farm for relief help isn't going to help. Hell, there are still so few sellers this far from the deadline that I'd be willing to bet that the cost on the few available would just be stupid, and that AA would get ripped for what he gave up for them if he made that kind of move.

A front of the rotation guy would obviously be great. So would a middle of the lineup impact bat. Legit ones don't grow on trees though and every other team in baseball is looking for those same players. This isn't Madden where you can throw enough junk at another team to get the player you want for your team. It's tough to be patient, or stay the course (I'm as guilty of that as anyone), but the guy who is patient and waits for the right move, instead of the rushing to do something just because he feels he has to, is the one who comes out on top.

Farrell is a different issue all together, though I am not as big a hater as a lot of you seem to be. He does make me scratch my head on occasion though lol.

wings
06-08-2012, 08:00 AM
probably, but AA wouldn't like to hear what the GM has to say about that.

They have Montero, why trade for JPA?

Plus the drafted college catcher Zunino 3rd overall, who should not take long to reach the majors.
I wonder if JP+ for Josh Johnson might be do able. Marlins need a catcher; Josh Johnson has just been average this year, but has a heck of track record, and we would have him for next year as well. Might be one of those win win deals that helps both clubs in the now.

idrinkpepsi
06-08-2012, 08:45 AM
If he got Felix for anything less than a "King's Ransom" I would be thrilled. It would take Lawrie, and others as much as we want to think it won't.

LanceUpperCut
06-08-2012, 09:35 AM
What is the deal with Santos? We need the guy bad.

I would love a proven ace like king Felix but not for some huge ransom, if we could grab a guy who could take the 3 spot the kid hutch as our 4 starter and then a battle between Alveraz and Drabeck with the loser probably Drabeck going to the minors to figure it out or used in some trade bait we would be all right as far as our starting five goes but the pen need to get rid of coco and Frasor asap.

JaysFan87
06-08-2012, 09:38 AM
AA's to-do list:

1) An Ace for the front of the rotation.

2) Someone to bat cleanup. Encarnasion is playing over his head and would be nice to have an intimidating bat other than Bautista in the lineup.

3)A reliable reliever. This should fix itself if get ourselves a true #1 for our rotation especially with santos coming off the DL.

THere are maybe a handful of "aces" in the MLB. If i had to say I would say Hernandez, Verlander, Lee, Halladay, Weaver, Kershaw...On the fringe of "Ace" i would put Sabathia, Price, Cain, Lincecum. So in total 6 "aces" and 4 very very good pitchers. For various reasons those guys are not available. People say this all the time and I ask you and others which "Ace" has/is going to be available.

JaysFan87
06-08-2012, 09:39 AM
IF you look at our current rotation/ prospects all of them are number 2/3 pitchers.

We don't have a guy that is a guaranteed 7+ innings. Obviously you have to give up talent to get talent, and teams aren't openly shopping aces but its AA's job to ask around.

Id trade players like d'arnaud, Lawrie, Gose etc. if its for the right player.


Who exactly plays 3rd? Your filling a hole by opening up another one.

alistar
06-08-2012, 09:56 AM
THere are maybe a handful of "aces" in the MLB. If i had to say I would say Hernandez, Verlander, Lee, Halladay, Weaver, Kershaw...On the fringe of "Ace" i would put Sabathia, Price, Cain, Lincecum. So in total 6 "aces" and 4 very very good pitchers. For various reasons those guys are not available. People say this all the time and I ask you and others which "Ace" has/is going to be available.

He's going to wave his magic wand and pull it out of a hat.

masTOR_shake1
06-08-2012, 10:17 AM
frasor isn't bad. but corderro's gotta go.

bartron_44
06-08-2012, 10:22 AM
Just be patient fellas. AA isn't going to trade away the cream of his prospect crop, and the way the Mariners are playing.

SD is already basically out of it, what young prospects would you trade for Carlos Quentin and Huston Street? the Padres still need just about everything, so it shouldn't be hard to work out a deal I wouldn't think..

How about Ryan Goins, Eric Thames and Sean Nolin for Quentin and Street?

Twitchy
06-08-2012, 11:18 AM
This is the problem of going with reliever ERA 2 months into the season.

Frasor has had 2 bad outings. Two. But because he let in 3-4 runs in those outings, his ERA is higher than four. In 24 games he's had two bad outings. So he's been effective 90% of the time. Is anybody going to complain about that? I sure as hell wouldn't. So even without Santos I'd argue we have two very effective options from RHP in Janssen and Frasor.

Santos coming back solves pretty much every problem the Jays have. It lets Janssen become the guy to come into high leverage spots, Oliver remains the LOOGY, Perez becomes a 6/7th inning guy along with Frasor, and Santos closes. Villanueva or whoever is the long man, and I guess you have Gordero for mop up. If he can even handle that. That's a pretty solid bullpen from where I'm sitting, although my preference would be to see as little of Gordero as possible.

I'd say the Jays need to stop using Gordero in key spots, and that would make a bigger difference then adding any one arm.

And until fatty starts getting some outs I'm just gonna call him Gordero.

es0terik
06-08-2012, 11:28 AM
This is the problem of going with reliever ERA 2 months into the season.

Frasor has had 2 bad outings. Two. But because he let in 3-4 runs in those outings, his ERA is higher than four. In 24 games he's had two bad outings. So he's been effective 90% of the time. Is anybody going to complain about that? I sure as hell wouldn't. So even without Santos I'd argue we have two very effective options from RHP in Janssen and Frasor.

Santos coming back solves pretty much every problem the Jays have. It lets Janssen become the guy to come into high leverage spots, Oliver remains the LOOGY, Perez becomes a 6/7th inning guy along with Frasor, and Santos closes. Villanueva or whoever is the long man, and I guess you have Gordero for mop up. If he can even handle that. That's a pretty solid bullpen from where I'm sitting, although my preference would be to see as little of Gordero as possible.

I'd say the Jays need to stop using Gordero in key spots, and that would make a bigger difference then adding any one arm.

And until fatty starts getting some outs I'm just gonna call him Gordero.
:clap: :laugh2:

Dol-Fan
06-08-2012, 11:33 AM
This is the problem of going with reliever ERA 2 months into the season.

Frasor has had 2 bad outings. Two. But because he let in 3-4 runs in those outings, his ERA is higher than four. In 24 games he's had two bad outings. So he's been effective 90% of the time. Is anybody going to complain about that? I sure as hell wouldn't. So even without Santos I'd argue we have two very effective options from RHP in Janssen and Frasor.

Santos coming back solves pretty much every problem the Jays have. It lets Janssen become the guy to come into high leverage spots, Oliver remains the LOOGY, Perez becomes a 6/7th inning guy along with Frasor, and Santos closes. Villanueva or whoever is the long man, and I guess you have Gordero for mop up. If he can even handle that. That's a pretty solid bullpen from where I'm sitting, although my preference would be to see as little of Gordero as possible.

I'd say the Jays need to stop using Gordero in key spots, and that would make a bigger difference then adding any one arm.

And until fatty starts getting some outs I'm just gonna call him Gordero.

Good post. I've been befuddled myself over the Frasor hate. He's been spot on for the most part this season.

I don't think Oliver should be a LOOGY. I hate using such an effective reliever for just one out. I mean, he can come in to face a lefty, but he's good enough to stick around and face right-handers, too.

But yeah, it would be nice to see Villanueva pitch better. He's been the big disappointment for me but I'm sure he'll turn it around. I wasn't expecting much out of Cordero (Gordero sounds like a Taco Bell meal, is that the joke?) so as long as he's relegated to mop-up duty, I'm fine with him. The bullpen looks a lot better once Santos returns, and even now, isn't so bad. Cordero is doing his best to make it look as though the sky is falling.

Twitchy
06-08-2012, 11:37 AM
Good post. I've been befuddled myself over the Frasor hate. He's been spot on for the most part this season.

I don't think Oliver should be a LOOGY. I hate using such an effective reliever for just one out. I mean, he can come in to face a lefty, but he's good enough to stick around and face right-handers, too.

But yeah, it would be nice to see Villanueva pitch better. He's been the big disappointment for me but I'm sure he'll turn it around. I wasn't expecting much out of Cordero (Gordero sounds like a Taco Bell meal, is that the joke?) so as long as he's relegated to mop-up duty, I'm fine with him. The bullpen looks a lot better once Santos returns, and even now, isn't so bad. Cordero is doing his best to make it look as though the sky is falling.

Well, yeah, Oliver can be used more than the typical LOOGY. That's true. He's very effective against RH bats so I hate seeing him wasted like that. Might have cost us the game last night, as if Oliver gets through the 8th you have Frasor for the ninth and Janssen for the 10th. So that's a good point too.

Gordo in Spanish = Fat. So I just went with Gordero cause it's close to Gordo.

Bob_at_york
06-08-2012, 11:52 AM
I don't think we need help in the pen. Once Santos comes back everything will work out.

miller74
06-08-2012, 12:15 PM
You guys realize that Cordero was one of the jays best relievers over the past month?

"time for AA to step up"

More like time for some jays fan to stop *****ing

miller74
06-08-2012, 12:17 PM
I don't think we need help in the pen. Once Santos comes back everything will work out.

agreed the best possible additions could be Stroman and Santos. And neither will cost an asset

Eagles4Lyfe
06-08-2012, 12:20 PM
I think I've found Mike Wilners PSD account

miller74
06-08-2012, 12:23 PM
I think I've found Mike Wilners PSD account

Why because someone pays attention?

Eagles4Lyfe
06-08-2012, 12:29 PM
Ya to Mike Wilners show and his words.

bomber0104
06-08-2012, 01:01 PM
Kind of amusing that folks on these boards were raving about AA's additions to the BP in the off season (I even remember some folks saying we now had the best BP in baseball) and now are ripping him for those same acquisitions. :p

Look, clearly the BP issues need to be addressed in some way as too many pitchers aren't pitching to expectations/career norms, but panic moves are what kill seasons. Blowing up the team, or giving up the farm for relief help isn't going to help. Hell, there are still so few sellers this far from the deadline that I'd be willing to bet that the cost on the few available would just be stupid, and that AA would get ripped for what he gave up for them if he made that kind of move.

A front of the rotation guy would obviously be great. So would a middle of the lineup impact bat. Legit ones don't grow on trees though and every other team in baseball is looking for those same players. This isn't Madden where you can throw enough junk at another team to get the player you want for your team. It's tough to be patient, or stay the course (I'm as guilty of that as anyone), but the guy who is patient and waits for the right move, instead of the rushing to do something just because he feels he has to, is the one who comes out on top.

Farrell is a different issue all together, though I am not as big a hater as a lot of you seem to be. He does make me scratch my head on occasion though lol.

trust me, no one thought adding coco and giving him the 8th inning was a good idea..

as for giving up the farm, you don't need to. Again, where was AA when the Angels got a closer type right handed reliever for Amarista who is a pretty crappy prospect..

bullpen arms don't cost that much especially this early before deadline

bomber0104
06-08-2012, 01:06 PM
This is the problem of going with reliever ERA 2 months into the season.

Frasor has had 2 bad outings. Two. But because he let in 3-4 runs in those outings, his ERA is higher than four. In 24 games he's had two bad outings. So he's been effective 90% of the time. Is anybody going to complain about that? I sure as hell wouldn't. So even without Santos I'd argue we have two very effective options from RHP in Janssen and Frasor.

Santos coming back solves pretty much every problem the Jays have. It lets Janssen become the guy to come into high leverage spots, Oliver remains the LOOGY, Perez becomes a 6/7th inning guy along with Frasor, and Santos closes. Villanueva or whoever is the long man, and I guess you have Gordero for mop up. If he can even handle that. That's a pretty solid bullpen from where I'm sitting, although my preference would be to see as little of Gordero as possible.

I'd say the Jays need to stop using Gordero in key spots, and that would make a bigger difference then adding any one arm.

And until fatty starts getting some outs I'm just gonna call him Gordero.

its just not that easy though...

we have the worst bullpen in the AL and getting Santos back isn't gonna make it that much better.. tough to count on a guy coming back from 2 months off in a season where he was struggling to begin with

and as for Frasor, he is nothing more than 6th, maybe 7th inning guy. Other teams like texas and chicago are giving you guys that throw 97 in those innings with tidy ERAs.. you can't compete with that

nithanyo
06-08-2012, 01:36 PM
THere are maybe a handful of "aces" in the MLB. If i had to say I would say Hernandez, Verlander, Lee, Halladay, Weaver, Kershaw...On the fringe of "Ace" i would put Sabathia, Price, Cain, Lincecum. So in total 6 "aces" and 4 very very good pitchers. For various reasons those guys are not available. People say this all the time and I ask you and others which "Ace" has/is going to be available.

We have such a deep farm system and it AA's job to make a deal. Teams will fall out of contention in the next month or two and if we are still in it at the trade deadline we make a deal. Nobody openly shops top tier pitching but at the same time noone is untouchable

StayOnBoard
06-08-2012, 01:37 PM
its just not that easy though...

we have the worst bullpen in the AL and getting Santos back isn't gonna make it that much better.. tough to count on a guy coming back from 2 months off in a season where he was struggling to begin with

and as for Frasor, he is nothing more than 6th, maybe 7th inning guy. Other teams like texas and chicago are giving you guys that throw 97 in those innings with tidy ERAs.. you can't compete with that

What a ****ing ******** statement...

The worst pen in the AL... child, please....

nithanyo
06-08-2012, 01:39 PM
Who exactly plays 3rd? Your filling a hole by opening up another one.

If seattle asks for a package around lawrie for felix u wouldn't do it??

Hitters are a lot easier to acquire than top notch pitching. I kno everyone here has a hard on for Lawrie but if the right deal comes along you send him off.

alistar
06-08-2012, 01:39 PM
We have such a deep farm system and it AA's job to make a deal. Teams will fall out of contention in the next month or two and if we are still in it at the trade deadline we make a deal. Nobody openly shops top tier pitching but at the same time noone is untouchable

Well, when the day comes where the Jays have actually acquired Clayton Kershaw, Felix Hernandez, David Price or Jered Weaver, you can be sure to let me know. Until then, I'll consider guys like that as close to untouchable as they can be.

bomber0104
06-08-2012, 01:40 PM
What a ****ing ******** statement...

The worst pen in the AL... child, please....

Well.. we're 14th in the AL with a 4.40 bullpen ERA so unless there is a 15th team that i'm not aware of, yes we have the worst bullpen

StayOnBoard
06-08-2012, 01:42 PM
Well.. we're 14th in the AL with a 4.40 bullpen ERA so as long as there is no 15th team that i'm not aware of, yes we are last

Yes, cause ERA is the only metric to use... especially when it comes to the pen 2 months into the season. C'mon...

I know your' captain negative Nancy and even when the Jays win you'll still ***** about <something> but the worst pen in the AL is a little extreme.

miller74
06-08-2012, 01:43 PM
Ya to Mike Wilners show and his words.

Was he wrong?

Alot more informative than reading some posts on here

alistar
06-08-2012, 01:46 PM
Yes, cause ERA is the only metric to use... especially when it comes to the pen 2 months into the season. C'mon...

I know your' captain negative Nancy and even when the Jays win you'll still ***** about <something> but the worst pen in the AL is a little extreme.

Well, opponents are hitting .256 against them which is the highest, their only 2 ERs from allowing the most earned runs in the AL despite being near the bottom in innings pitched, their also near the top in walks and also are last in saves. So I'll have to agree with him on this one.

bomber0104
06-08-2012, 01:46 PM
Yes, cause ERA is the only metric to use... especially when it comes to the pen 2 months into the season. C'mon...

I know your' captain negative Nancy and even when the Jays win you'll still ***** about <something> but the worst pen in the AL is a little extreme.

are u ****ing kidding me?

we have the worst ERA over 161 innings.. what else do you ****ing want for a proof?

what does this have to do with me being negative.. its the ****ing truth.. people need to get real.

whether you like it or not, we have the worst bullpen in the AL.. and if you can find other metrics that disapprove that, ****ing enlighten me

Korac
06-08-2012, 01:57 PM
trust me, no one thought adding coco and giving him the 8th inning was a good idea..

as for giving up the farm, you don't need to. Again, where was AA when the Angels got a closer type right handed reliever for Amarista who is a pretty crappy prospect..

bullpen arms don't cost that much especially this early before deadline

I'm not saying how they are using that BP is smart (see my Farrell comment) but if you don't think the majority of folks on these forums were applauding the additions to the bullpen, then you and I are reading very different forums.

Most pundits considered that trade a steal btw, and while we've become used to AA pulling the ole switcheroo on some GMs, he doesn't hold a patent on one sided trades. The Angels shafted em and good job on em. If you are to believe the rumors (and we don't have much else to go on except for the overall lack of trades for relievers) then what the few selling teams are asking for for their established BP arms has been prohibitive at best. AA has a rep for harassing GMs about what personnel they have available, so I'm sure he's making those inquiries.

StayOnBoard
06-08-2012, 02:04 PM
And if you remove Chad Cordero's hideous 9 ERA, the rest of them are STILL awful.. hmmm... interesting

Jason Frasor had TWO bad outings, otherwise he's been very solid... but since you like ERA so much, Daren Oliver has a 1.89 ERA... I guess he sucks...

Janseens ERA is around 3.32 - and he's been awful too.... Perez has a 3.29 ERA - what a scrub...

This is all while missing their closer.

No one is going to argue that Chad Cordero isn't absolutely-****ing-terrible, and I don't give a **** what their ERA is, they haven't been the worst in baseball like you make them out to be. Oh, wait, excuse me, worst in the AL as Im sure that's the first thing you'll nitpick.

Im done with this - I should have just let you have your tantrum like usual and just laugh from the sidelines like I normally do.

bomber0104
06-08-2012, 02:14 PM
And if you remove Chad Cordero's hideous 9 ERA, the rest of them are STILL awful.. hmmm... interesting

Jason Frasor had TWO bad outings, otherwise he's been very solid... but since you like ERA so much, Daren Oliver has a 1.89 ERA... I guess he sucks...

Janseens ERA is around 3.32 - and he's been awful too.... Perez has a 3.29 ERA - what a scrub...

This is all while missing their closer.

No one is going to argue that Chad Cordero isn't absolutely-****ing-terrible, and I don't give a **** what their ERA is, they haven't been the worst in baseball like you make them out to be. Oh, wait, excuse me, worst in the AL as Im sure that's the first thing you'll nitpick.

Im done with this - I should have just let you have your tantrum like usual and just laugh from the sidelines like I normally do.

you cant pick players and specific outings and just take them out because you can do that same thing for every other team..

you were wrong and don't want to admit it.. fine but dont try to make stupid excuses

nithanyo
06-08-2012, 02:56 PM
Well, when the day comes where the Jays have actually acquired Clayton Kershaw, Felix Hernandez, David Price or Jered Weaver, you can be sure to let me know. Until then, I'll consider guys like that as close to untouchable as they can be.

Guys like Price and Kershaw are near untouchable just cus the teams they play for are really good and they are locked up. However guys like Felix Hernandez and Tim Lincecum are nearing free agency and if the Giants or M's fall really far behind it would be in the best interest of that organization to move him.

I wouldnt even mind a guy like Garza, Hamels or Haren atop our rotation

MrForever
06-08-2012, 03:35 PM
I can see lincecum being available. They gave ridiculous cash to Cain and they have bumgartner, so with his struggles he could be the odd man out.

Maybe a change of league would help him regain form?

mtf
06-08-2012, 04:05 PM
I would love a proven ace like king Felix but not for some huge ransom, if we could grab a guy who could take the 3 spot the kid hutch as our 4 starter and then a battle between Alveraz and Drabeck with the loser probably Drabeck going to the minors to figure it out or used in some trade bait we would be all right as far as our starting five goes but the pen need to get rid of coco and Frasor asap.

Sentence of the Year!
:win:

mtf
06-08-2012, 04:07 PM
I can see lincecum being available. They gave ridiculous cash to Cain and they have bumgartner, so with his struggles he could be the odd man out.

Maybe a change of league would help him regain form?

Pitchers going from the National League to the American League rarely put up better numbers, especially when going to the East. Also, I think in Lincecum's case, his regression is due to mechanics rather than simply scouting from the opposition.

bomber0104
06-08-2012, 04:10 PM
yeah i don't want to touch Lincecum. the dudes stuff and numbers have been on the decline for the last 3 years and he is gonna ask for a massive contract no matter how bad he pitches this year

scottythegreat1
06-08-2012, 04:22 PM
I know our bullpen sucks this year, but thats just the way it goes. I thought it was a real solid bullpen going into the season when we found out who we got. Unfortunately, Santos went on the DL early on and Francisco Cordero turned out to be a rotten signing. Its just the way it goes with bullpens. You think its a solid bullpen, but it turns out bad. On paper, it looked better than the time we had BJ Ryan.

mtf
06-08-2012, 04:45 PM
You guys realize that Cordero was one of the jays best relievers over the past month?

"time for AA to step up"

More like time for some jays fan to stop *****ing

In May, Cordero had the following numbers. Let me know which I'm supposed to be impressed with...

6.75 ERA, 1.67 WHIP, .296 Opponent AVG, .383 Opponent OBP, .429 Opponent SLG, .356 Opponent wOBA.

scaramantula
06-08-2012, 05:09 PM
In May, Cordero had the following numbers. Let me know which I'm supposed to be impressed with...

6.75 ERA, 1.67 WHIP, .296 Opponent AVG, .383 Opponent OBP, .429 Opponent SLG, .356 Opponent wOBA.

those would be great offensive numbers, so you could be kinda impressed with that.

when i first saw this thread i thought it was gonna be another ***** thread about anthoupolos not making trades, but i agree another reviler would not be to much to ask for, whats Jessie Litch saying these days?

2009mvp
06-08-2012, 05:11 PM
Cool, let's all debate which particular arbitrary endpoints best fit our own opinions. That's real interesting.

JaysFan87
06-08-2012, 05:57 PM
We have such a deep farm system and it AA's job to make a deal. Teams will fall out of contention in the next month or two and if we are still in it at the trade deadline we make a deal. Nobody openly shops top tier pitching but at the same time noone is untouchable

This is not fantasy where teams trade good players cuz they are out of it. And the guys that are considered the best of the best are the untouchables in baseball. But more importantly me you and everyone else has no idea what teams do and who they call. For all you know they might have made phone calls and no one is willing to trade and also the return for those players might be way to rich. Just because you have a deep system doesn't mean you give in to crazy demands of other GMs.

Twitchy
06-08-2012, 06:07 PM
its just not that easy though...

Yeah, actually, it is.


we have the worst bullpen in the AL and getting Santos back isn't gonna make it that much better.. tough to count on a guy coming back from 2 months off in a season where he was struggling to begin with

Because it's always a good idea to judge a guy based on 5 innings at the beginning of the season. Let's ignore the 110 innings that say he's phenomenal.


and as for Frasor, he is nothing more than 6th, maybe 7th inning guy. Other teams like texas and chicago are giving you guys that throw 97 in those innings with tidy ERAs.. you can't compete with that

Doesn't Frasor throw 94-95? Regardless, Frasor is a lot better than a 6th or 7th inning guy.

And as for Texas, they have the best bullpen in the game. Of course the Jays can't compete with that. Nobody in baseball can put up a better pen then Nathan, Ogando, Adams and everybody else they've got down there.

As far as Santos, Janssen, Oliver and Frasor go I feel confident in those guys.

What's going to help the bullpen more than anything is the rotation going deep into games and the return to health of Santos. All of which will mean less appearances by Gordero.

The pen has been a weak spot to this point, no question. But going forward I think it's a lot better than you're giving it credit for.

Kenny Powders
06-08-2012, 06:18 PM
Finding a BP arm isn't the only thing he's bad at.
Don't forget that manager he hired :facepalm: worst mistake ever and a mistake that I don't sadly being fixed for a long while.

There were reports when Farrell was hired that AA really wanted Demarlo Hale but the majority wanted Farrell. Take that for what its worth, but maybe he should of stuck with his gut.

wamco
06-09-2012, 07:46 AM
In May, Cordero had the following numbers. Let me know which I'm supposed to be impressed with...

6.75 ERA, 1.67 WHIP, .296 Opponent AVG, .383 Opponent OBP, .429 Opponent SLG, .356 Opponent wOBA.

there you go gettin all pretentious again with your fancy numbers

LechWalesa
06-09-2012, 08:49 AM
It's going to be interesting to see how AA manages the prospect graduations. You have to figure he's got some moves in the works now that the draft is over.

I'm interested in Lincecum because iirc he is only signed through next year. Pretty low-risk if you can get him on the cheap. I doubt the Giants want to move him, they might as well hold on to him another year and see if he can rebound.

JaysFan87
06-09-2012, 10:05 AM
If seattle asks for a package around lawrie for felix u wouldn't do it??

Hitters are a lot easier to acquire than top notch pitching. I kno everyone here has a hard on for Lawrie but if the right deal comes along you send him off.

Okay but again who do u suppose plays 3rd base? And as a rule a top hitting hitter is worth alot more than a top notch pitch. Not saying Lawrie is that right now but as a general rule its easier to find good pitching than it is to find good hitting. But lets say you do that trade, who exactly is going ot play 3rd base this year adn in the future?

JaysFan87
06-09-2012, 10:09 AM
Guys like Price and Kershaw are near untouchable just cus the teams they play for are really good and they are locked up. However guys like Felix Hernandez and Tim Lincecum are nearing free agency and if the Giants or M's fall really far behind it would be in the best interest of that organization to move him.

I wouldnt even mind a guy like Garza, Hamels or Haren atop our rotation

The only guy that you mentioned that i would give up the farm (only the farm) is Hernandez. Lincecum is declining and FA and I dont want to pay twice (prospects & new contract) to find out that he is actually just declining. Ditto with Hamels. Haren is good but the Angels built the team to win now, they do not want prospects for Haren. Garza is interesting cuz the cubs look like they are going out of it but I dont think Garza is someone you unload top prospects for.

alistar
06-09-2012, 11:31 AM
Okay but again who do u suppose plays 3rd base? And as a rule a top hitting hitter is worth alot more than a top notch pitch. Not saying Lawrie is that right now but as a general rule its easier to find good pitching than it is to find good hitting. But lets say you do that trade, who exactly is going ot play 3rd base this year adn in the future?

Where did you get that from? I would say its the opposite

bomber0104
06-09-2012, 11:37 AM
Yeah, actually, it is.



Because it's always a good idea to judge a guy based on 5 innings at the beginning of the season. Let's ignore the 110 innings that say he's phenomenal.



Doesn't Frasor throw 94-95? Regardless, Frasor is a lot better than a 6th or 7th inning guy.

And as for Texas, they have the best bullpen in the game. Of course the Jays can't compete with that. Nobody in baseball can put up a better pen then Nathan, Ogando, Adams and everybody else they've got down there.

As far as Santos, Janssen, Oliver and Frasor go I feel confident in those guys.

What's going to help the bullpen more than anything is the rotation going deep into games and the return to health of Santos. All of which will mean less appearances by Gordero.

The pen has been a weak spot to this point, no question. But going forward I think it's a lot better than you're giving it credit for.

you are delusional man.. we still had a horrible bullpen with Santos healthy.. we still need at least another good arm and probably 2.. we aren't going anywhere with Carlos, Coco and who ever is the weekly vegas callup in the pen... it just doesn't work that way

JaysFan87
06-09-2012, 12:01 PM
Where did you get that from? I would say its the opposite

very good hitters are just very hard to find. Its why teams are much more willing to trade pitcher for hitters. Hitters are more valuable.

alistar
06-09-2012, 12:11 PM
very good hitters are just very hard to find. Its why teams are much more willing to trade pitcher for hitters. Hitters are more valuable.

Where do you find this "teams are much more willing to trade pitchers for hitters?" The Mariners basically got torn to **** for trading Pineda for Montero. The reason that JP Ricciardi passed on Tulowitzki in the draft for Romero despite the majority of his scouts telling him to take him to take Tulowitzki was basically pitching is harder to get, its more expensive and its compounded by the fact that we're playing in Toronto which isn't exactly the greatest baseball market. Why do you think the Jays are taking a shitload of high risk-high reward pitchers in the last 3 drafts if there so much easier to trade for?

JaysFan87
06-09-2012, 12:21 PM
Where do you find this "teams are much more willing to trade pitchers for hitters?" The Mariners basically got torn to **** for trading Pineda for Montero. The reason that JP Ricciardi passed on Tulowitzki in the draft for Romero despite the majority of his scouts telling him to take him to take Tulowitzki was basically pitching is harder to get, its more expensive and its compounded by the fact that we're playing in Toronto which isn't exactly the greatest baseball market. Why do you think the Jays are taking a shitload of high risk-high reward pitchers in the last 3 drafts if there so much easier to trade for?

WHo was the last home grown consistent hitter the jays developed? In that time they developed Halladay, Carpenter, Marcum, Romero.

Teams also view very good hitters in a higher light as very good pitchers which is why they are more willing to tie up hitters long term. Pitching in general is much much bigger risk health/performance wise that teams are willing to trade top pitching for hitters because generally very good hitters have better careers than very good pitchers.

Yes obviously Aces like Hernandez, Weaver, etc., aren't going to be trade but teams are far more willing to trade good-to-above average pitching for hitting. See Marcum for Lawrie and Pineda ffor Montero.

bomber0104
06-09-2012, 12:41 PM
Where do you find this "teams are much more willing to trade pitchers for hitters?" The Mariners basically got torn to **** for trading Pineda for Montero. The reason that JP Ricciardi passed on Tulowitzki in the draft for Romero despite the majority of his scouts telling him to take him to take Tulowitzki was basically pitching is harder to get, its more expensive and its compounded by the fact that we're playing in Toronto which isn't exactly the greatest baseball market. Why do you think the Jays are taking a shitload of high risk-high reward pitchers in the last 3 drafts if there so much easier to trade for?

yeah thats just not right.. its true everyone says young pitching is the most valuable comodity.. but an all-star 3B which Lawrie should be is more valuable than an ace pitcher simply because he plays in 5 times as many games

think about it that way, would you rather have Halladay or Pujols in their prime.. obvious answer is Pujols because he gets to help you win everyday

alistar
06-09-2012, 12:42 PM
WHo was the last home grown consistent hitter the jays developed? In that time they developed Halladay, Carpenter, Marcum, Romero.

Teams also view very good hitters in a higher light as very good pitchers which is why they are more willing to tie up hitters long term. Pitching in general is much much bigger risk health/performance wise that teams are willing to trade top pitching for hitters because generally very good hitters have better careers than very good pitchers.

Yes obviously Aces like Hernandez, Weaver, etc., aren't going to be trade but teams are far more willing to trade good-to-above average pitching for hitting. See Marcum for Lawrie and Pineda ffor Montero.

I can give you examples of the giants rejecting the rios for lincecum trade. The reason there are so few of these trades is because teams don't trade young starting pitching. The lawrie for marcum trade was the Jays basically saying they weren't yet ready to compete with the big boys yet without a few more pieces. And the Pineda for Montero trade was more of a testament to the Mariners farm system which is stocked with young pitching and had almost no hitting and thus, they could give up a player like Pineda.

JaysFan87
06-09-2012, 12:46 PM
I can give you examples of the giants rejecting the rios for lincecum trade. The reason there are so few of these trades is because teams don't trade young starting pitching. The lawrie for marcum trade was the Jays basically saying they weren't yet ready to compete with the big boys yet without a few more pieces. And the Pineda for Montero trade was more of a testament to the Mariners farm system which is stocked with young pitching and had almost no hitting and thus, they could give up a player like Pineda.

Lincecum was one of those pitchers who had/has ace potential. Those are the ones you dont trade away on whim. Theres always going ot be reasons why GM's make trades that is going to go against general belief. But the fact that teams are more willing to sign hitters to long long term contracts and trade for those hitters tell you how much more valuable those players are.


But it seems like you dont agree with that and thats fine by me.

passengershawn
06-09-2012, 12:49 PM
I really doubt there are any aces being shopped right now and I'd rather not give up what we would have to give up to get one. The rotation is solid and the team is stacked with pitching prospects. What the rotation needs is a veteran number 2 arm. That's more realistic.

I understand the notion of not giving up the farm, or making panic trades. But I think some people would rather hang onto prospects (just for the sake of having them), rather than using them to make the parent club better. If we have holes in the lineup, that's what prospects are for...either filling those holes in time, or using them to get someone to fill it now.

We have several outstanding SP's in the system, but if we wait for all of them to develop, then wake me up in 3-4 years when they're all ready at the same time. We can't have them all, plus keep Romero, Morrow, Alvarez, etc...there's just no room...so use what we have to acquire what we need. Last time I checked, Brett Lawrie was the only 'can't miss' prospect we've had in quite some time, so no one in the system is untrade-able.

Twitchy
06-09-2012, 01:41 PM
WHo was the last home grown consistent hitter the jays developed? In that time they developed Halladay, Carpenter, Marcum, Romero.

Teams also view very good hitters in a higher light as very good pitchers which is why they are more willing to tie up hitters long term. Pitching in general is much much bigger risk health/performance wise that teams are willing to trade top pitching for hitters because generally very good hitters have better careers than very good pitchers.

Yes obviously Aces like Hernandez, Weaver, etc., aren't going to be trade but teams are far more willing to trade good-to-above average pitching for hitting. See Marcum for Lawrie and Pineda ffor Montero.

All that means is that the organization has been better at developing arms over bats. I wouldn't use that to argue that league wide it's easier to develop arms compared to bats.

nithanyo
06-09-2012, 02:03 PM
This is not fantasy where teams trade good players cuz they are out of it. And the guys that are considered the best of the best are the untouchables in baseball. But more importantly me you and everyone else has no idea what teams do and who they call. For all you know they might have made phone calls and no one is willing to trade and also the return for those players might be way to rich. Just because you have a deep system doesn't mean you give in to crazy demands of other GMs.

Look what the phillies did. They needed an ace so all they did was make trades. They got themselves guys like halladay, lee, and Oswalt all with 1 or more years left in their contracts. And how did they do it? By trading prospects!!

JaysFan87
06-09-2012, 03:56 PM
All that means is that the organization has been better at developing arms over bats. I wouldn't use that to argue that league wide it's easier to develop arms compared to bats.

That was just one example. BUt i would bet most teams have developed more good arms than good hitters.

JaysFan87
06-09-2012, 03:58 PM
Look what the phillies did. They needed an ace so all they did was make trades. They got themselves guys like halladay, lee, and Oswalt all with 1 or more years left in their contracts. And how did they do it? By trading prospects!!

Lee and Halladay wanted out and are players you empty the farm for. Hernandez is another, but not the other ones you mentioned.

Twitchy
06-09-2012, 04:05 PM
That was just one example. BUt i would bet most teams have developed more good arms than good hitters.

Well then you would have lost that bet, because it's far easier, safer, and less risk involved in developing bats over arms.

bomber0104
06-09-2012, 05:08 PM
Well then you would have lost that bet, because it's far easier, safer, and less risk involved in developing bats over arms.

this all doesn't matter.. the argument is you take the All-Star bat over the all star pitcher everyday of the week

JaysFan87
06-09-2012, 06:21 PM
Well then you would have lost that bet, because it's far easier, safer, and less risk involved in developing bats over arms.

the risk is obviously lower yes i do agree with that. But you take the bat over the pitcher 99/100

GNick
06-14-2012, 02:25 AM
Its now on him to go out and get another bullpen arm.. we have a total of 3 capable relievers in our pen (Janssen, Oliver, and Perez) and only one of them is a righty..

You can't expect to compete when more than half your pen has an ERA over 4.

Where the **** was he when Frieri was traded to the Angels for Amarista (middling prospect). Frieri went 13 innings before giving up his first hit pitching for the Angels. Why is it such a struggle for AA to find capable pen arms when he is so good at doing everything else?

Everyone will tell you that pen arms are dime a dozen but it sure doesn't seem that way

we are easily in 1st place with an average bullepn.. and its time for this crap to get fixed

There isn't too much AA can do. Jays just in third year of five year rebuilding program. Be 2014 at the earliest before see a playoff competitive team here. With so many young players on team at same time no way to speed up a rebuilding program. It will be the full 5 years regardless what they try to tell you. It's part of growing pains with young players while they mature. Can notice it different than a veteran team breaking in a rookie or two.

That's why I was so against trading Halladay and company back in 2009. I didn't want to spend another 5 years rebuilding after just having two similiar programs one under Gord Ash in the '90s and another rebuilding program under JP Riccardi. I felt we were closer than we looked and keep Halladay with add a player would have put us in a pennant race. Put Halladay on 2010 Jays who won 85 games without him, and we have a 90 win team. We were only a player away. Which I figured was a better option than spending 5 years of so-so baseball.

fmradioguy
06-14-2012, 10:27 PM
TOP 10 teams in ERA along with their winning %
NATIONALS- .623
DODGERS- .625
GIANTS- .563
PIRATES- .525
RANGERS- .587
ANGELS .531
REDS- .565
RAYS- .556
ATHLETICS- .453 (the one exception)
YANKEES- .597

Except for Oakland, every one of those teams is either first or second in their division (or in a wild card spot in Tampa's case.)

TOP 10 teams in RUNS along with winning %
RANGERS- .587
RED SOX- .492
ROCKIES- .387 (!!!)
CARDINALS- .508
BLUE JAYS- .492
WHITE SOX- .548
BRAVES- .540
YANKEES- .597
METS- .547
TIGERS- .476

4 teams with losing records. One with the third worst record in the majors.
Just 4 of those 10 teams are either 1st or 2nd in their divisions or in a wild card spot.

A top slugger like Pujols becomes a run LESS than once a game on average. When Halladay was in his prime (averaging 7 innings), he was PREVENTING batters from becoming runs at least 21 times a game. Give me a rotation with 3 Halladays over a line-up with 3 Pujols any day.

mtf
06-15-2012, 12:39 AM
A top slugger like Pujols becomes a run LESS than once a game on average. When Halladay was in his prime (averaging 7 innings), he was PREVENTING batters from becoming runs at least 21 times a game. Give me a rotation with 3 Halladays over a line-up with 3 Pujols any day.

Most people will acknowledge that on a 1:1 basis, a top pitcher is more valuable than a top hitter in many ways. However, you only need 5 starting pitchers as opposed to 9 starting hitters, so comparing their value on a 1:1 basis isn't very legitimate for determining true contributions and value to a team.

In any event, coming up with these scenario's of what is a greater need of this organization is a waste of time. The fact remains that this team genuinely does need at least one more middle of the order bat, because there is far too much inconsistency and this was completely predictable.

Another starting pitcher would be of great value as well, however with Romero, Morrow, Alvarez and Hutchison all having the potential to pitch well this season it doesn't seem as much of a pressing need to me. If this team did have the lineup to keep up with the pitching (which is not superb, but sufficient nonetheless) then it could be a real contender.

A real contender needs to have approximately 6 stable and reliable hitters (just my opinion). If you look at the Yankees, Red Sox, or Rangers of recent years, you see line-ups that don't just have 1 hitter who you need to avoid (like the Jays with Bautista over the past couple of years) but you have a lineup that can compete with top opposing pitchers and challenge them consistently.

2009mvp
06-15-2012, 01:04 AM
Most people will acknowledge that on a 1:1 basis, a top pitcher is more valuable than a top hitter in many ways. However, you only need 5 starting pitchers as opposed to 9 starting hitters, so comparing their value on a 1:1 basis isn't very legitimate for determining true contributions and value to a team.

In any event, coming up with these scenario's of what is a greater need of this organization is a waste of time. The fact remains that this team genuinely does need at least one more middle of the order bat, because there is far too much inconsistency and this was completely predictable.

Another starting pitcher would be of great value as well, however with Romero, Morrow, Alvarez and Hutchison all having the potential to pitch well this season it doesn't seem as much of a pressing need to me. If this team did have the lineup to keep up with the pitching (which is not superb, but sufficient nonetheless) then it could be a real contender.

A real contender needs to have approximately 6 stable and reliable hitters (just my opinion). If you look at the Yankees, Red Sox, or Rangers of recent years, you see line-ups that don't just have 1 hitter who you need to avoid (like the Jays with Bautista over the past couple of years) but you have a lineup that can compete with top opposing pitchers and challenge them consistently.

Huh? They're bottom five in the league pitching wise by pretty much any metric you choose, while the offense has scored the fifth most runs in baseball right now. The offense and the defense have been excellent. Not that I'm opposed to adding a legit bat at first base/DH, but let's make no mistake that the pitching as a whole has been dreadful to this point.

mtf
06-15-2012, 03:04 AM
Huh? They're bottom five in the league pitching wise by pretty much any metric you choose, while the offense has scored the fifth most runs in baseball right now. The offense and the defense have been excellent. Not that I'm opposed to adding a legit bat at first base/DH, but let's make no mistake that the pitching as a whole has been dreadful to this point.

The bullpen has been awful, the starting pitching has been passable. I'm pretty sure it was clear I was referring to the starting pitching in the post you quoted. Their starters rank 4th in the American League, 13th of 30 in the majors, in ERA. It's passable.

The offense has not been as amazing as 5th in "runs scored" would suggest. Their team OPS is 7th in the American League, 13th in the majors. It's okay, but it's hardly solid.

Aside from looking at charts of numbers, and instead choosing to watch some of the games and observe where the numbers come from (an ancient technique, but one I still subscribe to) you can see how many games the Blue Jays offense just can't seem to get rolling.

At the beginning of the season, they couldn't get people on base with any degree of regularity, but when they did they would get timely hits to capitalize on their few opportunities. Now, they can get people on base from time to time, but they seem to have a hard time coming up with a timely hit.

Meanwhile, the starting pitching has not been as bad as some would make it out to be. Obviously, Kyle Drabek has been quite shaky and people have a right to be frustrated with him. In looking around baseball, and comparing him with the 5th best starter, I'd wager that he comes ahead of many of them in both performance and potential. Meanwhile, Morrow, Hutchison and Alvarez have all been performing reasonably well. Morrow was the only pitcher in the group performing at a high level, but the others were all getting the job done, within reasonable expectations.

All of this being said, I never thought this was the year. I predicted at the beginning of the season that the Blue Jays would win 86 games at most and that the minimum for even the second wild card spot would be 92 wins. I haven't wavered in those predictions, although 86 now seems like a hope rather than an expectation. I would like to see Anthopoulos make a decision on whether he thinks this team is close or not. If he decides it's close, open the wallet this off-season instead of sitting on it like this past one. If they're not close, perhaps move Arencibia, Thames, or Escobar and try to bring in some more talent.

Twitchy
06-15-2012, 07:09 AM
The bullpen has been awful, the starting pitching has been passable. I'm pretty sure it was clear I was referring to the starting pitching in the post you quoted. Their starters rank 4th in the American League, 13th of 30 in the majors, in ERA. It's passable.

It is in no way shape or form passable. If you go by ERA the Jays only have 2 guys under 4 - Morrow at 3.01, and Alvarez at 3.85. Anybody expect Alvarez to stay that way for long? He's got a 5.61 FIP and he's pretty much turned into an auto loss.

Drabek was a 4.67 ERA starter. Hutch has been better recently but he's around the same. And Romero is lucky to be at 4.15 given all the walks.

The ERA is very misleading in this case. It's not passable.


The offense has not been as amazing as 5th in "runs scored" would suggest. Their team OPS is 7th in the American League, 13th in the majors. It's okay, but it's hardly solid.


It's interesting that you would judge the offence by the OPS and not runs scored but you'll judge the pitching staff by ERA which is effectively runs allowed. Because the Jays are 28/30 in FIP among starting pitchers at 4.86. That's why the rotation is so bad, and because the defence is so amazing the pitching looks better than it really is.

Let's make no mistake, the offence is very solid. But the pitching staff is amongst the worst in the majors.


Aside from looking at charts of numbers, and instead choosing to watch some of the games and observe where the numbers come from (an ancient technique, but one I still subscribe to) you can see how many games the Blue Jays offense just can't seem to get rolling.


I've watched just about every game over the last month. I've seen the pitching staff waste Jose Bautista hitting nearly a home run every other game. I knew the pitching staff was bad without looking at the numbers, and I was horrified at the results when I took a look at the numbers.


At the beginning of the season, they couldn't get people on base with any degree of regularity, but when they did they would get timely hits to capitalize on their few opportunities. Now, they can get people on base from time to time, but they seem to have a hard time coming up with a timely hit.


In April they scored 4.5 runs a game.
In May they scored 5.1 runs a game.
In June they scored 4.25 runs a game.

That's fairly consistent. The difference between 4.5/4.25 is negligible.


Meanwhile, the starting pitching has not been as bad as some would make it out to be. Obviously, Kyle Drabek has been quite shaky and people have a right to be frustrated with him. In looking around baseball, and comparing him with the 5th best starter, I'd wager that he comes ahead of many of them in both performance and potential.

Not in terms of performance, that's for sure.


Meanwhile, Morrow, Hutchison and Alvarez have all been performing reasonably well.

I'm not sure how anybody can suggest Alvarez has performed well given he can't miss a bat to save his life.


Morrow was the only pitcher in the group performing at a high level, but the others were all getting the job done, within reasonable expectations.


Romero, Drabek and Alvarez have all been below expectations this year. Significantly in some cases.

alistar
06-15-2012, 08:18 AM
There isn't too much AA can do. Jays just in third year of five year rebuilding program. Be 2014 at the earliest before see a playoff competitive team here. With so many young players on team at same time no way to speed up a rebuilding program. It will be the full 5 years regardless what they try to tell you. It's part of growing pains with young players while they mature. Can notice it different than a veteran team breaking in a rookie or two.

That's why I was so against trading Halladay and company back in 2009. I didn't want to spend another 5 years rebuilding after just having two similiar programs one under Gord Ash in the '90s and another rebuilding program under JP Riccardi. I felt we were closer than we looked and keep Halladay with add a player would have put us in a pennant race. Put Halladay on 2010 Jays who won 85 games without him, and we have a 90 win team. We were only a player away. Which I figured was a better option than spending 5 years of so-so baseball.

Who ever said this was a 5 year plan?

Eagles4Lyfe
06-15-2012, 12:44 PM
People are using runs scored to say our hitting is any good??
Were 22nd in OBP and 22nd in the league in hitting average and were second I believe in homeruns.
Obviously the runs are going to be skewed if all were doing is aiming for the fences. Atleast if the other numbers suggested that our runs weren't based solely of long bombs then you guys would have a point but there is a clear difference in the numbers.

Our hitting is not consistant whatsoever when we hit we hit for like one game then go cold for the next 2 or 3. This team just isn't consistant and ya our pitching has been awful mainly the BP but to say the SP's have been the biggest problem for this team is not right. Their both equally at fault..

Our SP's have kept us in practically almost all our games before letting way to the BP.
Lets be honest if the BP doesn't have the 15-20 blown saves or whatever the number is we wouldn't even have this discussion or be worrying about our team cause we'd be in first. But we can't live on if's and buts.

mtf
06-15-2012, 01:23 PM
I'm not sure how anybody can suggest Alvarez has performed well given he can't miss a bat to save his life.

I don't really care too much if he gets a strikeout on 7 pitchers or a gruondball out on 3 pitches. My problem with Alvarez is the long ball, he seems to allow 2 per game since he started declining after April ended.

Krylian
06-15-2012, 01:27 PM
People are using runs scored to say our hitting is any good??
Were 22nd in OBP and 22nd in the league in hitting average and were second I believe in homeruns.
Obviously the runs are going to be skewed if all were doing is aiming for the fences. Atleast if the other numbers suggested that our runs weren't based solely of long bombs then you guys would have a point but there is a clear difference in the numbers.

Our hitting is not consistant whatsoever when we hit we hit for like one game then go cold for the next 2 or 3. This team just isn't consistant and ya our pitching has been awful mainly the BP but to say the SP's have been the biggest problem for this team is not right. Their both equally at fault..

Our SP's have kept us in practically almost all our games before letting way to the BP.
Lets be honest if the BP doesn't have the 15-20 blown saves or whatever the number is we wouldn't even have this discussion or be worrying about our team cause we'd be in first. But we can't live on if's and buts.

Runs scored is the goal isn't it?

So doesn't looking at runs basically mean, production is good due to the 5th/6th highest run total....but initiating production (getting men on base) is lousy. So basically, they maximize the few base runners they get.

wagnall
06-15-2012, 01:43 PM
I agree with I don't know what AA can do now to put us in a position to contend this year as we sit now. We started TC with better talent than last year but we still have so many ? AA has lots of decisions to make.

Is EE for real or will we get the usual 2 great months , 2 average months and 2 months of hearing anyone know where EE is. Should he sell high on him right now.

Who's playing LF in 2013
Who's playing 1st base in 2013
Who is our catcher in 2013
Who is our 2nd baseman in 2013
Who is our SS in 2013
Who is our CF in 2013
Do we add a legit Ace for 2013
Whos the big bat at #4 in 2013.
Who's our closer for 2013 if Santos isn't the guy,
What does our BP look like in 2013.

You can go on and on, but that does not look like a team that is 1 or 2 guys from being a legit contender now.

Twitchy
06-15-2012, 01:52 PM
People are using runs scored to say our hitting is any good??
Were 22nd in OBP and 22nd in the league in hitting average and were second I believe in homeruns.

The OBP is so low because the average is so low. Batting averages tend to be lower for teams that hit for lots of power. This isn't news to anybody. As for the OBP, it's not as bad as you think, because the Jays are 16th in BB%. Middle of the pack. They're not free swingers but they're not patient either.

They may not have a strong OBP, but the team OPS puts them at 14th in the majors. That's a pretty solid lineup, and clearly they're effective at driving in runs if they're a middle of the pack offence that ranks 5th in the majors in runs scored.



Obviously the runs are going to be skewed if all were doing is aiming for the fences.

You say that like it's a bad thing - isn't the goal to score runs? You want to be able to put up crooked numbers like that.


Atleast if the other numbers suggested that our runs weren't based solely of long bombs then you guys would have a point but there is a clear difference in the numbers.

Would you be happier if the team was 5th in runs scored because they hit a lot of singles?

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how you score runs, be it by power, speed, or stringing hits together. This Jays squad is clearly one that hits a lot of home runs, and if that's how they drive in runs it's not a bad thing. Obviously I'd rather they have a strong OBP, but given that they're so good at hitting home runs it's pretty safe to say they'll continue scoring at an above average pace.


Our hitting is not consistant whatsoever when we hit we hit for like one game then go cold for the next 2 or 3. This team just isn't consistant and ya our pitching has been awful mainly the BP but to say the SP's have been the biggest problem for this team is not right. Their both equally at fault..

The starting pitching has been far worse. Far worse. They're 28th in FIP. That's pretty much as bad as you can get.


Our SP's have kept us in practically almost all our games before letting way to the BP.

The only starter who has ever kept us in a game is Morrow. Romero, Alvarez, Hutch and Drabek haven't done a good job keeping us in the game. Not even close.


Lets be honest if the BP doesn't have the 15-20 blown saves or whatever the number is we wouldn't even have this discussion or be worrying about our team cause we'd be in first. But we can't live on if's and buts.

If the bullpen hadn't blown as many saves then we'd have a better record, but it wouldn't change the fact that the rotation is the weakest link of the team.

What people don't seem to understand is just because the defence is one of the best in the majors (depending what metrics you use), doesn't mean that the pitching staff has performed well. It's a testament to how good the defence is that the pitching staff looks good in spite of the fact the Jays starters rank 26/30 in K/9 (5.95), 28/30 in walk rate (3.61) and 28/30 in HR:FB (15.3%).

Yes, that's right, the starting staff is basically the worst in the game when it comes to striking out hitters, walking hitters, and keeping the ball in the park. The only reason that the ERA looks half decent is because the defence has been phenomenal, to the point where they make the worst rotation in the game look kind of average. But that's a credit to the fantastic defence at SS, 3B and CF, who have saved the Jays season with their gloves alone.

No, the pitching staff is far and away the worst part of this team. And the sooner AA realizes that, the better.

StayOnBoard
06-15-2012, 02:07 PM
What people don't seem to understand is just because the defence is one of the best in the majors (depending what metrics you use), doesn't mean that the pitching staff has performed well. It's a testament to how good the defence is that the pitching staff looks good in spite of the fact the Jays starters rank 26/30 in K/9 (5.95), 28/30 in walk rate (3.61) and 28/30 in HR:FB (15.3%).

Yes, that's right, the starting staff is basically the worst in the game when it comes to striking out hitters, walking hitters, and keeping the ball in the park. The only reason that the ERA looks half decent is because the defence has been phenomenal, to the point where they make the worst rotation in the game look kind of average. But that's a credit to the fantastic defence at SS, 3B and CF, who have saved the Jays season with their gloves alone.

No, the pitching staff is far and away the worst part of this team. And the sooner AA realizes that, the better.

Completely agree with you - but I think he DOES realize it and teams just aren't willing to trade yet. I give it a month.... I hope I'm right.

LechWalesa
06-15-2012, 05:10 PM
I'm of a somewhat mixed opinion on the offence. I do like the 5th in runs aspect, but as was pointed out they are VERY inconsistent and should be a lot better than they are. IMO the offence is a big reason why we are losing. We've lost a lot of games simply because the offence hasn't been able to put anything together. Of course, they also had a slow start .

As of right now here are the players who I am not worried about in the slightest and would like to hold on to:

Rasmus
Bautista
Lawrie
Escobar
Davis

These are players you can build around (even though Davis is admittedly a bench player).

What AA needs to do is start selling high on some of these prospects (Hech) and get a good pitcher for the rotation or at the very least a can't-miss pitching prospect. Package Encarnacion and KJ for all I care... although I would like to keep Encarnacion around, I think he can play 1B.

Sanyo
06-16-2012, 04:15 PM
Next year have Snider LF, Gose CF, Rasmus RF. Bring Bautista to 1st. Keep JP as a DH/C and bring up D'Arnaud. Yunel at SS and sign KJ if you can. If not Hech comes to 2b.

Bring in Greinke. Maybe see if you can bring in Marcum for a good price. If not Alvarez really needs to develop that "out" pitch, you cant live off two pitches forever.

StayOnBoard
06-16-2012, 06:12 PM
Next year have Snider LF, Gose CF, Rasmus RF. Bring Bautista to 1st. Keep JP as a DH/C and bring up D'Arnaud. Yunel at SS and sign KJ if you can. If not Hech comes to 2b.

Bring in Greinke. Maybe see if you can bring in Marcum for a good price. If not Alvarez really needs to develop that "out" pitch, you cant live off two pitches forever.

Why on earth would they want to do that when TDA is so much better than JPA? I would trade JPA and try to get something for him - then put D'Arnaud at C.

The rest though I think makes a lot of sense - I wouldn't mind an OF of Snider/Gose/Rasmus, and then have Bautista play 1st/DH. That would solve some problems.

I'd also love Grienke but pretty sure he's not going to want and come here (he more or less said he doesn't like the big market, east coast teams).

Sanyo
06-16-2012, 06:36 PM
Why on earth would they want to do that when TDA is so much better than JPA? I would trade JPA and try to get something for him - then put D'Arnaud at C.

The rest though I think makes a lot of sense - I wouldn't mind an OF of Snider/Gose/Rasmus, and then have Bautista play 1st/DH. That would solve some problems.

I'd also love Grienke but pretty sure he's not going to want and come here (he more or less said he doesn't like the big market, east coast teams).

I said to keep JP as c/dh just because I think the Jays don't want to give up on JP yet and they want to see what D'Arnaud can do at the major league level. I think they give D'Aranud at least half a year before they decide to deal JP. Of course, if AA gets a sweetheart deal for JP he could trade him at anytime but I think they want to see if his hitting truly can come around. I think he's one of those guys who can be reasonably decent with the bat (think Adam Dunn style) if he focused squarely on hitting and not on catching.

And I think the Jays could get Greinke if they pay him $20 mil + for 7 years. I think the Jays will have to spend big on someone and you may as well on somebpdy like Greinke. Plus, even though the Jays are technically a big market team, down in the States, Toronto is no bigger than Milwaukee or KC. It'll all depend on where Greinke wants to go but Toronto has a good shot, I think. At worst, try to go after Marcum and give him maybe $13-$14 mil over 4 years. That might get it done...

idrinkpepsi
06-16-2012, 06:41 PM
:facepalm: @ keeping JP on as a DH

Sanyo
06-16-2012, 06:46 PM
^ Its not my first choice but then again if they trade EE and bring up Travis, then they have to put JP somewhere. But if they can get something decent back for JP during the off-season then go right ahead, but considering how the Jays value his leadership abilities and want to try to potentially increase his value even more, I doubt he goes anywhere this year...or even to begin next year (again as long as some other team doesnt give something good back that the Jays need like pitching).

2009mvp
06-16-2012, 07:07 PM
I totally agree with that. He's not saying that that's a long term option, but as of right now splitting the DH spot between them looks like the only way to get TDA up to the show. We get it, JP isn't very good, that doesn't mean you dump the guy for ten cents on the dollar or bench him and further kill his trade value. Given the other DH options that's the route I'd take, since getting TDA at bats is far more important than guys like Cooper, Gomes, and Thames.

Edit: to be clear, I'm talking about 2012 alone. In the offseason JP has to go.

The_Realist
06-16-2012, 10:22 PM
I don't usually post here anymore (but I'm still reading the forum), and I had a crazy thought. Catcher is a very hard position on a person's body (look at Joe Mauer).

Why not have Travis D'Arnaud and J.P. Arencibia learn 1st base slowly during this season and next season spring training. Obviously you can't just put them at 1st base immediately because it takes a while to learn a new position, but I think that added flexibility would be a big plus.

Then you could split their time at 1st/catcher. The advantage of this is that they are getting lots of rest from the catcher position and will be less likely to get knee or back injuries which could hurt their hitting.

Sanyo
06-16-2012, 11:06 PM
I don't usually post here anymore (but I'm still reading the forum), and I had a crazy thought. Catcher is a very hard position on a person's body (look at Joe Mauer).

Why not have Travis D'Arnaud and J.P. Arencibia learn 1st base slowly during this season and next season spring training. Obviously you can't just put them at 1st base immediately because it takes a while to learn a new position, but I think that added flexibility would be a big plus.

Then you could split their time at 1st/catcher. The advantage of this is that they are getting lots of rest from the catcher position and will be less likely to get knee or back injuries which could hurt their hitting.

This would be fine but the issue becomes what happens in the outfield, which is going to become crowded soon. Got Snider coming back up. Gose who may be here in Sept or the start of 2013. Ramsus who is slowly picking it up. Bautista. Then you have Sierra who could be ready in 2013 as well. Marisnick who could be up here in late 2013 or 2014.

Personally if JPA was a slightly better defensive catcher, I would ignore his batting stats -- issue is he's still got kinks as a catcher and he may or may not improve upon them. I will still give him the benefit of the doubt since this is only his 2nd year and we're barely half way through this season but he really needs to learn pitch recognition because he swings at some pretty awful pitches. If he can be slightly more patient, I think this will help him improve significantly. Problem is the kid is also trying to adjust to major league catching and to be fair he is catching young kids himself so he's not getting some vet starters out there giving him a ton of help with calling a game. The most experienced starter is Romero who's only into his 4th year. So he does have some pressure that maybe other young catchers don't usually have. That's why I would give him a DH shot since I doubt AA keeps Edwin if the Jays are slipping out of the playoffs in July...

playball1
06-17-2012, 11:23 AM
Trade anyone that is a free agent and JPA. Trading for this year to get to the playoffs would only hurt this team in the long run.

E-5 -Dodgers (Kanley Jansen, Scott Van Slyke, Ethan Martin)
Johnson -Detroit (Casey Crosby)
JPA - TB (Ryan Brett)
Davis - Orioles (Clayton Schrader)
Frasor -Cards (Ryan Jackson)
Oliver -Only trade him if someone offered above value for him -Braves (Nick Ahmed)


If I was the Jays for next year I'd be planning on signing

1)Bourn 5 year 55-60 mil
2)Ortiz 2 year 24 mil
3)Marcum 5 year 55-60 mil. (You wouldnt get hamels, Greinke i don't think would play here. Sanchez maybe a possibility)
4) Polanco 1 year 2 mil - backup 2b and 3b, good glove and a contact hitter the jays may need for either escobar or Hechavarria)
5)Martin 1 year 2.5 mil

With these signings and other possible trades you'd be looking at around a 90-95 million payroll with some savings coming from this year.

Trades would bring back minor league depth and rp's for next year. I'd like to see the Jays nab Collins back from KC.

Im sorry but if you plan on contending next year you are not going to make it with 4 rookies in your line up, if Snider was taking Lf. If that happened I wouldnt be surprised if you had 6 guys in the line up batting below .250

My line up would be

CF Bourn
LF Gose
DH/1b Bautista
DH/1b Ortiz
3b Lawrie
rf Rasmus
c d'Arnaud
2b Escobar
ss Hechavarria (if they were going to have him play at 2b - i would think they would have moved him there this year in the minors)

Bench I'd like to see Cooper, Snider, Polanco(Phils), and Martin(yanks).

SP's Romero, Morrow, Marcum, Alva, and Hutch

StayOnBoard
06-18-2012, 12:16 PM
E-5 -Dodgers (Kanley Jansen, Scott Van Slyke, Ethan Martin)

Drugs?

wagnall
06-18-2012, 04:26 PM
We will probably know soon enough if AA is going to add or sell off a few. That will tell us whether we are making a go for it this year or are making plans for 2013. If thats the case then I would agree with bringing in d'Arnaud and moving JPA to DH, ya his bat doesn't play there, but it would be a good chance to see much more of TDA and what he has over more games than just a Sept. call up.
As for Hech, he's a SS and needs to go there, not second. Escobar has played 2nd, a small sample all be it, so I'd rather see him at 2nd. if they deal or don't re sign Johnson.
Too many ? still . :confused::confused::confused:

MrForever
06-18-2012, 04:50 PM
I totally agree with that. He's not saying that that's a long term option, but as of right now splitting the DH spot between them looks like the only way to get TDA up to the show. We get it, JP isn't very good, that doesn't mean you dump the guy for ten cents on the dollar or bench him and further kill his trade value. Given the other DH options that's the route I'd take, since getting TDA at bats is far more important than guys like Cooper, Gomes, and Thames.

Edit: to be clear, I'm talking about 2012 alone. In the offseason JP has to go.

He's not as bad as people think he is haha.

Like obviously he's not an all star but he's a second year player who will put up 20+ homers and probably 60RBI. There's nothing wrong with that production especially when our savior is still yet to play a game in the big leagues.

JaysFan87
06-18-2012, 05:09 PM
He's not as bad as people think he is haha.

Like obviously he's not an all star but he's a second year player who will put up 20+ homers and probably 60RBI. There's nothing wrong with that production especially when our savior is still yet to play a game in the big leagues.

that is the only part of his game he is useful. Everything else is below average to awful.

MrForever
06-18-2012, 05:16 PM
that is the only part of his game he is useful. Everything else is below average to awful.

If you're platooning with darnaud as a C and a DH, power and production are the most important tools. His fielding is mediocre but it's improving.

Is his contract crippling? Is there a reason he can't be on the team?

Christ reading this forum makes me think JPA has the plague and darnaud is already an established MLB powerhouse.

1hardcore
06-18-2012, 05:19 PM
Trade Snider...he's healthy :)

JaysFan87
06-18-2012, 05:38 PM
If you're platooning with darnaud as a C and a DH, power and production are the most important tools. His fielding is mediocre but it's improving.

Is his contract crippling? Is there a reason he can't be on the team?

Christ reading this forum makes me think JPA has the plague and darnaud is already an established MLB powerhouse.

He has easily been one of the worst offensive catcher in the majors this year and last year.

The only "catcher" that has been worse is Kurt Suzuki. Every other catcher in the MLB that is qualified has been better and its not even close.

I dont mind eating his lack of offense at catcher until D'Arnaud or someone else comes along but the moment that you start looking at him for DH production, that is where i say its time for him to go and quick.

JaysFan87
06-18-2012, 05:54 PM
Of the 15 qualified catchers in the mlb JPA is:

13th in 2B
14th in BB
2nd in SO
15th in AVG
15th in OBP
12th in SLG
2nd IN HR

The ONLY this he does well is hit HR. He is pretty terrible in everything else. Considering he is 2nd in HR and is 12th among 15 qualified Catchers in SLG% tells you how bad he is.

craigerlee
06-18-2012, 06:13 PM
Of the 15 qualified catchers in the mlb JPA is:

13th in 2B
14th in BB
2nd in SO
15th in AVG
15th in OBP
12th in SLG
2nd IN HR

The ONLY this he does well is hit HR. He is pretty terrible in everything else. Considering he is 2nd in HR and is 12th among 15 qualified Catchers in SLG% tells you how bad he is.

This is a bit deceiving considering if you look at Fangraphs all of the qualified catchers ahead of JP are are really good and three of them(Napoli, Santana, and Montero) don't start everyday at catcher. I think the fact that only 15 guys that can play catcher are getting enough AB's to qualify for the batting title, just shows the lack of depth at catcher around the league.

I think JP hits lefties well enough that if you found him a good platoon mate, someone similar to Luke Scott, he'd be a pretty good backup catcher and platoon DH. However if we can get something valuable in a trade for him, then ya go ahead in pull the trigger, if not I don't see why he can't be a backup catcher/platoon DH.

JaysFan87
06-18-2012, 06:27 PM
This is a bit deceiving considering if you look at Fangraphs all of the qualified catchers ahead of JP are are really good and three of them(Napoli, Santana, and Montero) don't start everyday at catcher. I think the fact that only 15 guys that can play catcher are getting enough AB's to qualify for the batting title, just shows the lack of depth at catcher around the league.

I think JP hits lefties well enough that if you found him a good platoon mate, someone similar to Luke Scott, he'd be a pretty good backup catcher and platoon DH.

Santana has played 42 of 47 games at C
Napoli 37 of 52 games at C
Montero 26 games at C

So yes he would be more of a DH which should underline the point that even with Montero not having a good year at all he is still better than JPA in the DH spot.

Look at Rod Barajas this year and tell me what the difference between the two is?

Almost identical batting lines with Barajas actually a tick better and Arencibia with 3 more HR than him.

Again going into the season I could stomach his production from last year knowing it was his rookie season last year. But this year has shown even worse production. I have no issue with giving him the rest of the year to sort it out but if come october its more of the same then he can not be starting at C next year.

craigerlee
06-18-2012, 06:53 PM
Santana has played 42 of 47 games at C
Napoli 37 of 52 games at C
Montero 26 games at C

So yes he would be more of a DH which should underline the point that even with Montero not having a good year at all he is still better than JPA in the DH spot.

Look at Rod Barajas this year and tell me what the difference between the two is?

Almost identical batting lines with Barajas actually a tick better and Arencibia with 3 more HR than him.

Again going into the season I could stomach his production from last year knowing it was his rookie season last year. But this year has shown even worse production. I have no issue with giving him the rest of the year to sort it out but if come october its more of the same then he can not be starting at C next year.

I'm not saying he should be our starting catcher next year, if you read my post I abdicated that he be a backup catcher/platoon DH next year if you can't land anything good in a trade for him. My whole point was catcher in general is a black hole for offense and the fact you can only find 15 catchers that would qualify for the batting title is evidence of that. Also the fact that if you look at players that can catch with more than 150 PA's this year, there's 19 players ahead of JPA offensively in terms wRC+, which Means 11 teams either don't have a catcher that can catch everyday or have a worst catcher offensively than JP.

JaysFan87
06-18-2012, 07:09 PM
I'm not saying he should be our starting catcher next year, if you read my post I abdicated that he be a backup catcher/platoon DH next year if you can't land anything good in a trade for him. My whole point was catcher in general is a black hole for offense and the fact you can only find 15 catchers that would qualify for the batting title is evidence of that. Also the fact that if you look at players that can catch with more than 150 PA's this year, there's 19 players ahead of JPA offensively in terms wRC+, which Means 11 teams either don't have a catcher that can catch everyday or have a worst catcher offensively than JP.

Just because its a black hole doesnt mean you can can justify JPA playing because there is no one else out there. Thats the job of the front office to draft/trade/sign a better player. Its 100% not a knock on AA because im pretty sure he is liekly to move JPA at some point by the start of next year and he is right to do so. Some team will find value in him and he is young enough that a team will keep him around till his arbitration years. But he has no value on this team as a bench player because he is just not a good enough offensive performer to keep a spot.

craigerlee
06-18-2012, 08:03 PM
Just because its a black hole doesnt mean you can can justify JPA playing because there is no one else out there. Thats the job of the front office to draft/trade/sign a better player. Its 100% not a knock on AA because im pretty sure he is liekly to move JPA at some point by the start of next year and he is right to do so. Some team will find value in him and he is young enough that a team will keep him around till his arbitration years. But he has no value on this team as a bench player because he is just not a good enough offensive performer to keep a spot.

How is he not good enough to be a bench player? Do you realize who plays backup catcher in the league? Jeff Mathis is ours for god sakes. Considering how many days off a catcher needs throughout the year, backup catcher is probably one of the most important bench spots on the entire team. JPA would absolutely be valuable to us a backup catcher, and a guy with .750 OPS against LH isn't a horrible bench bat at all either.

Obviously it would be nice to get something useful for him like a mid rotation starter or starting position player, but I'd rather have him as a backup then take a reliever or fringe starter for him in a trade.

JaysFan87
06-18-2012, 08:11 PM
How is he not good enough to be a bench player? Do you realize who plays backup catcher in the league? Jeff Mathis is ours for god sakes. Considering how many days off a catcher needs throughout the year, backup catcher is probably one of the most important bench spots on the entire team. JPA would absolutely be valuable to us a backup catcher, and a guy with .750 OPS against LH isn't a horrible bench bat at all either.

Obviously it would be nice to get something useful for him like a mid rotation starter or starting position player, but I'd rather have him as a backup then take a reliever or fringe starter for him in a trade.

He is worth more in a trade package than he is on the bench where he offers very very little value. Especially considering you move JPA becasue you feel that D'Arnaud can be your starter. Both are Righties so there is no point in keeping him to pinch hit. But even if you did you are keeping a pretty poor hitter as your bench bat. He is also hitting a poor .700~ OPS against righties this year which is not good.

craigerlee
06-18-2012, 08:20 PM
He is worth more in a trade package than he is on the bench where he offers very very little value. Especially considering you move JPA becasue you feel that D'Arnaud can be your starter. Both are Righties so there is no point in keeping him to pinch hit. But even if you did you are keeping a pretty poor hitter as your bench bat. He is also hitting a poor .700~ OPS against righties this year which is not good.

We don't know what he gets in trade package so I don't think you can say with confidence that he's worth more in a trade then on the bench. Also he would start at least 35 games at C potentially more if TDA was to get injured, and compared to what the typical backup catcher provides, he'd be a lot more valuable. He also doesn't need to PH hit for TDA, he can pinch hit in inter league for the pitcher, or he could PH for any player that has worst splits against LHP then he does. I don't think you realize how bad most bench players are and how much more valuable a catcher can be that has some good pop against LHP.

LechWalesa
06-18-2012, 10:32 PM
What could JPAs value in a package even really be? Maybe 2 years ago he could have been included, but at this point I doubt many teams are going to be seeing a ton of upside in him. He's cheap, under team control, and he gives you a solid backup catcher who is familiar with the pitchers and has invested a lot of time and energy into the team. I honestly don't know why people are so passionately wanting to get rid of the guy.

JaysFan87
06-19-2012, 12:16 AM
We don't know what he gets in trade package so I don't think you can say with confidence that he's worth more in a trade then on the bench. Also he would start at least 35 games at C potentially more if TDA was to get injured, and compared to what the typical backup catcher provides, he'd be a lot more valuable. He also doesn't need to PH hit for TDA, he can pinch hit in inter league for the pitcher, or he could PH for any player that has worst splits against LHP then he does. I don't think you realize how bad most bench players are and how much more valuable a catcher can be that has some good pop against LHP.

Young pre-arb catchers who are serviceable for a bad team/team that thinks there is something there are worth a ton. Sub .250avg/.280OBP catchers who provide no value defensively and even on his "best split" against lefties(who account for maybe 30% of all pitchers in the MLB) has a career .750 OPS is not valuable at all.

Pens_fan_21
06-19-2012, 01:02 AM
Raggin' on AA...TO fans are garbage...most seem to have A.D.D...and I'm almost certain they think being a GM in real life is like being a GM in a video game...This isn't me saying they cant have an opinion - we all have one - but seriously folks, relax

2009mvp
06-19-2012, 08:44 AM
Backup C & platoon DH just isn't a realistic option. You can't tie your managers hands every time there's a lefty on the mound risking losing the DH. Also, later in games he'd inevitably be forced to face RHP out of the pen, at which point pinch hitting becomes a scary proposition. Of course you could carry a third catcher, but that's impractical for a lot of reasons. Besides him being a popular guy in the city and apparently in the clubhouse, I really can't think of a reason for keeping JP here next year.

craigerlee
06-19-2012, 01:16 PM
Backup C & platoon DH just isn't a realistic option. You can't tie your managers hands every time there's a lefty on the mound risking losing the DH. Also, later in games he'd inevitably be forced to face RHP out of the pen, at which point pinch hitting becomes a scary proposition. Of course you could carry a third catcher, but that's impractical for a lot of reasons. Besides him being a popular guy in the city and apparently in the clubhouse, I really can't think of a reason for keeping JP here next year.

That's where Gomes comes in handy as he can play 1B/3B and maybe LF too. You could easily carry Davis, Arencibia, Gomes and some utility SS(preferably LH/B). Then you just need a power Left handed DH that can crush RHP. That would give you a pretty versatile bench.

Obviously I'd rather get some useful piece in a trade for JP, but if he's only able to get us a reliever or back end starter in a package then there's absolutely no reason to trade him as he could easily fit onto our bench.

2009mvp
06-19-2012, 02:22 PM
I don't get that. If he gets you a productive reliever, isn't that more valuable than what JP brings as a backup considering how cheap backup catchers who can actually catch and hit LHP are? I think he has more trade value than that to be honest, but it wouldn't take much for me to deal him if I were AA.

FlakeyFool
06-19-2012, 02:47 PM
Of the 15 qualified catchers in the mlb JPA is:

13th in 2B
14th in BB
2nd in SO
15th in AVG
15th in OBP
12th in SLG
2nd IN HR

The ONLY this he does well is hit HR. He is pretty terrible in everything else. Considering he is 2nd in HR and is 12th among 15 qualified Catchers in SLG% tells you how bad he is.

He's good at two things

craigerlee
06-19-2012, 02:48 PM
I don't get that. If he gets you a productive reliever, isn't that more valuable than what JP brings as a backup considering how cheap backup catchers who can actually catch and hit LHP are? I think he has more trade value than that to be honest, but it wouldn't take much for me to deal him if I were AA.

I think its easier to find a productive reliever than a useful backup catcher. Not to mention relievers flame out all the time. Also I think JP has improved his catching skills a fair amount to the point he's close to league average. He's throwing a lot more runners out, and I think he's done a much better job blocking, which it may not look like as Drabek and Romero have been all over the place this year.

Also I don't know if TDA is a 140 game a year catcher as he's had back problems the last 2 years and from what I hear he may be a middle of the order bat, so that's a guy who's AB's I wanna maximize and catching 120-130 games a year and having a competent backup may be the way to do that.

2009mvp
06-19-2012, 03:18 PM
I'd still take Castro, Shoppach, Laird who were all FAs pretty easily over JP. Those guys all came cheap, Jeff Mathis cheap. It's just not that hard to find a capable backup C. I'd imagine the difference between most backups is marginal at best anyways, and like I said JP isn't really better than those guys in the first place.

Bob_at_york
06-19-2012, 03:26 PM
I find it amazing how attached people are to JP. I like JP, always have. But I KNOW he must go.

wagnall
06-19-2012, 03:46 PM
I find it amazing how attached people are to JP. I like JP, always have. But I KNOW he must go.

People are attached to JPA for the person who seems to be a really likeable nice guy and the great teammate to be around, but not for his contributions at the plate and defensivly
I like the guy too, but he really needs to go. If we have Gomes as a utility guy and Mathis, if the right trade came along do it. and bring in d'Arnaud sooner than later so we get to see him for more than 30 games in Sept. :)

craigerlee
06-19-2012, 04:28 PM
I find it amazing how attached people are to JP. I like JP, always have. But I KNOW he must go.

Not sure if this was directed at me or not, but I'm not attached to him by any means. If he can help land us something useful like a front to mid rotation starter, starting position player, or a really solid prospect who's close to the majors then I'll pack his bags myself. However if all he's landing is a reliever or another bench player then I don't see any harm in keeping him around as bench player and DH against LHP. I just don't think he's completely useless to this team like some, I know he doesn't possess a lot of value, and that's why I'm starting to be skeptical about what he can really bring back as part of a trade.

wagnall
06-19-2012, 05:00 PM
Not sure if this was directed at me or not, but I'm not attached to him by any means. If he can help land us something useful like a front to mid rotation starter, starting position player, or a really solid prospect who's close to the majors then I'll pack his bags myself. However if all he's landing is a reliever or another bench player then I don't see any harm in keeping him around as bench player and DH against LHP. I just don't think he's completely useless to this team like some, I know he doesn't possess a lot of value, and that's why I'm starting to be skeptical about what he can really bring back as part of a trade.


As far as his value, I think it keeps dropping weekly. Every club can see what what we see so how much would we give up for him if we wanted him. I think he would have to be part of a package. :)

JaysFan87
06-20-2012, 12:03 AM
Not sure if this was directed at me or not, but I'm not attached to him by any means. If he can help land us something useful like a front to mid rotation starter, starting position player, or a really solid prospect who's close to the majors then I'll pack his bags myself. However if all he's landing is a reliever or another bench player then I don't see any harm in keeping him around as bench player and DH against LHP. I just don't think he's completely useless to this team like some, I know he doesn't possess a lot of value, and that's why I'm starting to be skeptical about what he can really bring back as part of a trade.

He is not even THAT good against lefties (.750 OPS is nothing to be writing home about). If he can be packaged for something even a better bat on the bench then I dont see why you dont jump on that?

mtf
06-20-2012, 04:17 AM
I find it amazing how attached people are to JP. I like JP, always have. But I KNOW he must go.

I fully agree with you here. He has a great personality and everything, but the Jays are NOT going to make the playoffs this year. If the performance on the field through the first two and a half months didn't convince people of that, the recent injuries to the starting rotation should.

Any argument for keeping Arencibia so he can handle the pitching staff on this run for the second wild card should now be voided. Arencibia should be moved, and D'Arnaud should be brought up to get a few months of experience.

superfio
06-20-2012, 11:22 AM
Stranger things have happened,

Minnesota was on the verge but lost their chances, all it took was a morneau shock injury and things never recovered since

Instead, Jays have a shot now and they can battle through it I believe

Sure there's no darvish or fielder added but neither are we carrying Wells, Rios, Hill and Burnett anymore. its smart decisions and creative moves which revamped the whole atmosphere behind last 2 years. What if young guns emerge like lawrie, escobar or rasmus, and of course bautista encarnacion finally clicks with experience. just maybe, arencibia is learning the ropes and becomes another late Boomer? All payers are different and patience is key. Let the kid play on for a bit longer

i always remember how SF signed zito with a monster value contract but wasn't called into pitch in playoffs. Cain was drafted behind Russ Adams, and overtakes most guys taken earlier in the draft

We already lost napoli through our teeth last year and I don't want to see it happen again.

MrForever
06-20-2012, 11:38 AM
What's the reason we're in a rush to throw JP away?

What if d'Arnaud comes up and he isn't ready?

What if he gets injured?

Do we throw d'Arnaud away two years from now when there's another cool new toy in the minors..?

Do you all have severe ADHD or something or are you all just Leaf fans.

Rebuild = patience.

AA09-?
06-20-2012, 11:40 AM
What's the reason we're in a rush to throw JP away?

What if d'Arnaud comes up and he isn't ready?

What if he gets injured?

Do we throw d'Arnaud away two years from now when there's another cool new toy in the minors..?

Do you all have severe ADHD or something or are you all just Leaf fans.

Rebuild = patience.

TDA is way way better defensively than JPA. Not to mention he will undoubtably be a much more productive hitter.

2009mvp
06-20-2012, 11:48 AM
What's the reason we're in a rush to throw JP away?

Because he's pretty terrible at his job.


What if d'Arnaud comes up and he isn't ready?

Then you find another catcher. Again, JP isn't exactly setting the bar very high.


What if he gets injured?

See above.


Do we throw d'Arnaud away two years from now when there's another cool new toy in the minors..?

If he's struggling with no signs of turning it around and said 'cool new toy' happens to be the best catching prospect in the game who is big league ready, then sure.


Do you all have severe ADHD or something or are you all just Leaf fans.

Oh **** off with that Leaf fan crap. So tired of reading that junk, I don't give a **** about the Leafs and what the hell would it matter if I did?

alistar
06-20-2012, 11:58 AM
Because he's pretty terrible at his job.



Then you find another catcher. Again, JP isn't exactly setting the bar very high.



See above.



If he's struggling with no signs of turning it around and said 'cool new toy' happens to be the best catching prospect in the game who is big league ready, then sure.



[B]Oh **** off with that Leaf fan crap. So tired of reading that junk, I don't give a **** about the Leafs and what the hell would it matter if I did?

Because you'd be more of a loser since only losers pay $300 a ticket to watch a crappy team play

Twitchy
06-20-2012, 12:04 PM
Arencibia is amongst the worst offensive catchers in the majors. And he's supposed to be an offence first catcher. At this point I wouldn't even feel comfortable using him as a backup catcher. Trade him or demote him because he's absolutely worthless.

How bad is Arencibia right now? His 665 OPS is only SLIGHTLY higher than John McDonald's career OPS with the Jays (617).

I realize the Jays can't demote him or they lose any trade value with him, but he simply isn't any good. I'm just frustrated watching him because he's such a terrible player. He's holding this team back. The sooner he's gone, the better.

MrForever
06-20-2012, 12:22 PM
Arencibia is amongst the worst offensive catchers in the majors. And he's supposed to be an offence first catcher. At this point I wouldn't even feel comfortable using him as a backup catcher. Trade him or demote him because he's absolutely worthless.

How bad is Arencibia right now? His 665 OPS is only SLIGHTLY higher than John McDonald's career OPS with the Jays (617).

I realize the Jays can't demote him or they lose any trade value with him, but he simply isn't any good. I'm just frustrated watching him because he's such a terrible player. He's holding this team back. The sooner he's gone, the better.

:clap: That is potentially the most asinine statement I have ever read on this board. Congratulations.

Do you honestly think THIS team RIGHT NOW is a contender?

Are you aware of the pitching rotation? Have you seen the production we get from SS, 2B and LF..? And you're telling me JP singlehandedly is holding the team back.

For ****s sakes, what a stupid thing to say.

Throwing away 2nd year players who are improving, when their value is lower than usual is terrible asset management.

2009mvp
06-20-2012, 12:30 PM
Where did he say anything about contending? And more importantly, how is JP improving?

StayOnBoard
06-20-2012, 12:33 PM
:clap: That is potentially the most asinine statement I have ever read on this board. Congratulations.

Do you honestly think THIS team RIGHT NOW is a contender?

Are you aware of the pitching rotation? Have you seen the production we get from SS, 2B and LF..? And you're telling me JP singlehandedly is holding the team back.

For ****s sakes, what a stupid thing to say.

Throwing away 2nd year players who are improving, when their value is lower than usual is terrible asset management.

This is the part your obviously missing. JPA ISNT improving.... if anything he's regressing or staying his horrible-self production wise.

People were patient last year because he was a rookie - most knew he wouldn't make huge strides but were hopeful anyways. The guy just can't hit for any sort of average, can't get on base, doesn't hit doubles... it's basically home run or nothing - and he's pretty God-awful in every other aspect of his game.

Look - JP seems like a great guy, I get that.... he's a team player and he's "home grown", but I would absolutely jettison him immediately if I could get ANY sort of return for him. You know what Rod Barajas and Miguel Olivo would net in value? Why would you think JPA would be any different?

Truth is, d'Arnaud could be recalled tomorrow and Im fairly sure could put up better stats than what JPA is doing right now. The guy has to go and I honestly would be shocked if he lasts past this season's trade deadline. I have no interest keeping him as a backup catcher and letting him start 1-2 nights a week, it's much better to try and get an asset for him or trade him + prospects for a nice starter who is under control for a few years.

MrForever
06-20-2012, 12:34 PM
Where did he say anything about contending? And more importantly, how is JP improving?

His fielding is astronomically better this year than it was last year.

It's quite evident, most players tend to improve as they play more at the ML level.

Again, like I will continue to say, he is a sophomore player who has put up some good numbers and it's dumb to throw away a guy simply because he isn't a star by his second season.

Chemistry is important in sports and you don't help chemistry by mixing the team up every single season. You have to be patient.

JP's rookie year of 22 HR and 78 RBI is an impressive season for production, for a rookie, I don't want a player like that to be tossed away after two seasons especially when we aren't contending now, it makes no sense.

MrForever
06-20-2012, 12:37 PM
This is the part your obviously missing. JPA ISNT improving.... if anything he's regressing or staying his horrible-self production wise.

People were patient last year because he was a rookie - most knew he wouldn't make huge strides but were hopeful anyways. The guy just can't hit for any sort of average, can't get on base, doesn't hit doubles... it's basically home run or nothing - and he's pretty God-awful in every other aspect of his game.

Look - JP seems like a great guy, I get that.... he's a team player and he's "home grown", but I would absolutely jettison him immediately if I could get ANY sort of return for him. You know what Rod Barajas and Miguel Olivo would net in value? Why would you think JPA would be any different?

Truth is, d'Arnaud could be recalled tomorrow and Im fairly sure could put up better stats than what JPA is doing right now. The guy has to go and I honestly would be shocked if he lasts past this season's trade deadline. I have no interest keeping him as a backup catcher and letting him start 1-2 nights a week, it's much better to try and get an asset for him or trade him + prospects for a nice starter who is under control for a few years.

I don't think the team will ever be successful with that kind of attitude.

By this logic, Escobar should be gone, Morrow should have been gone and I guess Romero should probably be dealt too.

Patience is virtue. Not everyone can put together their niche in one season.

I might be a little biased because I've always been a JP fan, but I genuinely think with more time he will be either boost his value higher or he can be a good platooner/backup. There's no need to rush for the playoffs or rush d'Arnaud.

StayOnBoard
06-20-2012, 12:39 PM
His fielding is astronomically better this year than it was last year.

It's quite evident, most players tend to improve as they play more at the ML level.

Again, like I will continue to say, he is a sophomore player who has put up some good numbers and it's dumb to throw away a guy simply because he isn't a star by his second season.

Chemistry is important in sports and you don't help chemistry by mixing the team up every single season. You have to be patient.

JP's rookie year of 22 HR and 78 RBI is an impressive season for production, for a rookie, I don't want a player like that to be tossed away after two seasons especially when we aren't contending now, it makes no sense.

a) What "good numbers" are you talking about? I don't see anything good about his stats.
b) Speaking of stats, stop using stats like RBI to try and prove a point, everyone knows it's an awful stat and perhaps the absolute worst stat in judging a player.
c) Team chemistry IS important but how do you think the team feels everytime there's runners on base and the guy pops out or K's to end the inning? Chemistry only gets you so far....
d) Who said "toss him away"? I don't think anyone wants to cut him outright, though if I had my way I'd probably demote him back to Vegas and recall TDA.... unfortunately Im not a GM. Fact is, trading him to some GM who wants to take a chance on a "change of scenery" type scenario is a good thing and something AA should be trying to pitch.
e) We COULD be contending now if we had another starter, a 1st baseman, a LFer and a catcher who could actually hit. I really don't think we're that far away..... and JPA + prospects might be able to net us something to fill one of the holes above.

MrForever
06-20-2012, 12:41 PM
e) We COULD be contending now if we had another starter, a 1st baseman, a LFer and a catcher who could actually hit. I really don't think we're that far away..... and JPA + prospects might be able to net us something to fill one of the holes above.

Lol, I think a lot of teams would be contenders if they had all of those pieces, so no, we aren't as close as you think.

StayOnBoard
06-20-2012, 12:43 PM
I don't think the team will ever be successful with that kind of attitude.

By this logic, Escobar should be gone, Morrow should have been gone and I guess Romero should probably be dealt too.

Patience is virtue. Not everyone can put together their niche in one season.

I might be a little biased because I've always been a JP fan, but I genuinely think with more time he will be either boost his value higher or he can be a good platooner/backup. There's no need to rush for the playoffs or rush d'Arnaud.

You're talking to me of all people about patience?? Really??

And "what kind of attitude" are you referring to? Do you mean truth?? Truth sometimes hurts, it's sports, get over it.... if someone is working at an office but couldn't pull their weight they would be let go. These guys are on a national spotlight and make WAY more cash than anyone who's working in an office (who doesn't own that company), why should they get a free pass?

BTW - I've always supported Rasmus, Morrow, Escobar, hell even Travis Snider... you should pay attention to who you're quoting before getting up and arms about attitudes. Sadly, no amount of positive energy I put towards JPA will help when he just flat-out sucks.

Here - let me help you out
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=697&position=C

Show me where this great stats are and why we should be so patient.... is it his almost 30% k rate we should be impressed with? How about his 4% walk rate? No? His .220 batting average?? How about his .665 OPS.... SIX-SIX-FIVE. Do you understand how absolutely dreadful that is?

StayOnBoard
06-20-2012, 12:44 PM
Lol, I think a lot of teams would be contenders if they had all of those pieces, so no, we aren't as close as you think.

Well... the Jays won't get anywhere with that type of attitude ;)

*see what I did there?

MrForever
06-20-2012, 12:46 PM
Well... the Jays won't get anywhere with that type of attitude ;)

*see what I did there?
I see

:clap:

I'm willing to bet JPA isn't moved unless he's part of a package that brings back a star player.

There's no way AA is tossing away a home grown asset for nothing like some of you guys think/want.

AA09-?
06-20-2012, 12:49 PM
I see

:clap:

I'm willing to bet JPA isn't moved unless he's part of a package that brings back a star player.

There's no way AA is tossing away a home grown asset for nothing like some of you guys think/want.

:confused:

Just cause he's homegrown doesn't mean he'll be here forever (this is the Jays not Raps)...oh I get it...that's what your name is...gotcha!:D

StayOnBoard
06-20-2012, 12:51 PM
Well... the Jays won't get anywhere with that type of attitude ;)

*see what I did there?
I see

:clap:

I'm willing to bet JPA isn't moved unless he's part of a package that brings back a star player.

There's no way AA is tossing away a home grown asset for nothing like some of you guys think/want.

way to ignore the questions asked... Show us how hes improving and what stats are so great? Don't use things like "I said so, jpa is awesome". You got the fangraphs link, go highlight where we should be impressed.... Ill wait.

bomber0104
06-20-2012, 12:52 PM
i really hope the TDA gets to catch the majority of the second half.. i've had enough of JPA and his 2 weeks on 2 months off streaks

JaysFan87
06-20-2012, 12:53 PM
What's the reason we're in a rush to throw JP away?

What if d'Arnaud comes up and he isn't ready?

What if he gets injured?

Do we throw d'Arnaud away two years from now when there's another cool new toy in the minors..?

Do you all have severe ADHD or something or are you all just Leaf fans.

Rebuild = patience.

I'm 100 percent for rebuilding a team but it needs to be done wisely and with the right players. I don't see JPA as a guy you build around. Right now its nit so much about what D'arnaud can or can not do. Its 100 percent about the lack of offensive production and potential production from JPA. Like I said I'm for giving him the year to improve but come the offseason and his numbers look the same as last year and right now, there needs to be a change.

MrForever
06-20-2012, 12:55 PM
way to ignore the questions asked... Show us how hes improving and what stats are so great? Don't use things like "I said so, jpa is awesome". You got the fangraphs link, go highlight where we should be impressed.... Ill wait.

Don't put quotations on things I didn't say. That's pathetic

Fine. You're right. I concede. I honestly don't care enough to argue with you about this.

I have my opinion you have yours. Stop being a 12 year old and be respectful of that.

Player maturity and inevitable growth isn't something that can be proved by stats.

All I'm saying is jpa deserves a chance and there's no need to rush darnaud. It's not a big deal.

StayOnBoard
06-20-2012, 12:57 PM
Don't put quotations on things I didn't say. That's pathetic

Fine. You're right. I concede. I honestly don't care enough to argue with you about this.

I have my opinion you have yours. Stop being a 12 year old and be respectful of that.

Player maturity and inevitable growth isn't something that can be proved by stats.

All I'm saying is jpa deserves a chance and there's no need to rush darnaud. It's not a big deal.

Good - bowing out is the right move here.

MrForever
06-20-2012, 01:00 PM
You're talking to me of all people about patience?? Really??

And "what kind of attitude" are you referring to? Do you mean truth?? Truth sometimes hurts, it's sports, get over it.... if someone is working at an office but couldn't pull their weight they would be let go. These guys are on a national spotlight and make WAY more cash than anyone who's working in an office (who doesn't own that company), why should they get a free pass?

BTW - I've always supported Rasmus, Morrow, Escobar, hell even Travis Snider... you should pay attention to who you're quoting before getting up and arms about attitudes. Sadly, no amount of positive energy I put towards JPA will help when he just flat-out sucks.

Here - let me help you out
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=697&position=C

Show me where this great stats are and why we should be so patient.... is it his almost 30% k rate we should be impressed with? How about his 4% walk rate? No? His .220 batting average?? How about his .665 OPS.... SIX-SIX-FIVE. Do you understand how absolutely dreadful that is?

Good points. You proved me wrong.

You're right jp according to stats is a bad player but for future reference please be less of an ******* while arguing with others because nobody will embrace your points if you're being a douche, which i tend to see a lot from you. Be respectful of other peoples reason for having the opinions they have.

Cheers.

wamco
06-20-2012, 01:04 PM
not likely

JaysFan87
06-20-2012, 01:06 PM
His fielding is astronomically better this year than it was last year.

It's quite evident, most players tend to improve as they play more at the ML level.

Again, like I will continue to say, he is a sophomore player who has put up some good numbers and it's dumb to throw away a guy simply because he isn't a star by his second season.

Chemistry is important in sports and you don't help chemistry by mixing the team up every single season. You have to be patient.

JP's rookie year of 22 HR and 78 RBI is an impressive season for production, for a rookie, I don't want a player like that to be tossed away after two seasons especially when we aren't contending now, it makes no sense.

In what world has JPA improved offensively the year. Last year was pretty bad, this year has been much much worse.

superfio
06-20-2012, 01:09 PM
JP struggles is essentially what bautista encarnacion morrow rasmus escobar even romero n janssen all went through. add lawrie as well who faced the whip because of heated swagger. Once they figured things out, would their sorry GMs, managers and fans wish they tolerated more or knew better? BTW, I bet above players in early stages were more mediocre than McDonald's career ops (as someone just mentioned ) but look now ...

Would u ever expect 20 - 45 Homers from Mcdonald ? But lawrie, rasmus, bautista, encarnacion reaches these numbers this season

JP already done it as a rookie, and has half the team as mentors to turn their performance around. Time is the essence here.

Chopping people is much easier and faster to do than developing core talents in time

JaysFan87
06-20-2012, 01:15 PM
I see

:clap:

I'm willing to bet JPA isn't moved unless he's part of a package that brings back a star player.

There's no way AA is tossing away a home grown asset for nothing like some of you guys think/want.

That's is what everyone is saying! He is worth more as part of a package than a player on this team.

2009mvp
06-20-2012, 01:17 PM
Stop making these lazy comparisons to other players. Let's look at JP, since we're talking about JP. His struggles in the bigs are exactly what he was expected to struggle with throughout his minor league career. That's the problem. Guys don't just pull more contact out of their *****, or learn how to take a walk overnight.

Twitchy
06-20-2012, 04:22 PM
:clap: That is potentially the most asinine statement I have ever read on this board. Congratulations.

Do you honestly think THIS team RIGHT NOW is a contender?

I never said they were contending, I said Arencibia is holding this team back. And as a 665 OPS offence first catcher, it's hard to suggest he isn't holding the team back. It's not like he was good last year either. He's 26, so he's not young. What you see is what you get


Are you aware of the pitching rotation? Have you seen the production we get from SS, 2B and LF..? And you're telling me JP singlehandedly is holding the team back.


The pitching rotation is worst in the majors, but SS/2B are far, far better than you give them credit for. Escobar at least is a plus defensive SS, and coming into the year he's a top 5 guy. KJ is fantastic at 2B, so I don't know what your issue is there. LF is only bad cause they went with nice guy Mr. Nice guy in Thames. Davis is doing a lot better than I expected. But all those spots are still significantly better than C.



For ****s sakes, what a stupid thing to say.

Yeah, it's terrible to suggest that terrible players don't deserve to play for the Jays. How stupid of me.


Throwing away 2nd year players who are improving, when their value is lower than usual is terrible asset management.

I haven't seen any improvement in JP Arencibia. All I see is a guy who's played worse than last year.


His fielding is astronomically better this year than it was last year.

Astronomically better than last year is a nice way of saying he's no longer the worst defensive catcher in the majors. He's still below average.


It's quite evident, most players tend to improve as they play more at the ML level.


It's optimistic to say that.


Again, like I will continue to say, he is a sophomore player who has put up some good numbers and it's dumb to throw away a guy simply because he isn't a star by his second season.


He has never put up good numbers. He was below average offensively last year and he's significantly below average this season. It's not about him being a star - it's about him NEVER approaching a league average offence for a catcher.


Chemistry is important in sports and you don't help chemistry by mixing the team up every single season. You have to be patient.


Manny Ramirez won 2 World Series and he's not exactly the most likeable guy in the world. Talent is always better than chemistry.


JP's rookie year of 22 HR and 78 RBI is an impressive season for production, for a rookie, I don't want a player like that to be tossed away after two seasons especially when we aren't contending now, it makes no sense.

JP's rookie season in 2011 ranked him 21/26 in wRC+. That's basically the same thing as OPS+. So no, Arencibia didn't have a good rookie season. He was one of the worst catchers in the game offensively.


I'm willing to bet JPA isn't moved unless he's part of a package that brings back a star player.

Hard to do that when you're struggling to outhit John McDonald.


There's no way AA is tossing away a home grown asset for nothing like some of you guys think/want.

Assets help the team. Arencibia isn't doing that. He hasn't been doing that ever.

superfio
06-20-2012, 08:24 PM
Stop making these lazy comparisons to other players. Let's look at JP, since we're talking about JP. His struggles in the bigs are exactly what he was expected to struggle with throughout his minor league career. That's the problem. Guys don't just pull more contact out of their *****, or learn how to take a walk overnight.

Statistically, bautista encarnacion never flashed a shiny minor league bat line either. They were driven out like the same boat arencibia is sitting. Even E5 was not a distant memory either. And mind you, they did pull everything together if given enough chances and faith to fail. These are outliers on the same team under the outlying management we have all seen evidently. How about Hill, Rios and Wells who promised a fledgling career if their minor league stats are worth everything. All things are not equal for player progression or recreation. Only fact agreed is how long this process can take, and certainly its not an overnight event.

Twitchy
06-20-2012, 08:49 PM
Statistically, bautista encarnacion never flashed a shiny minor league bat line either. They were driven out like the same boat arencibia is sitting. Even E5 was not a distant memory either. And mind you, they did pull everything together if given enough chances and faith to fail. These are outliers on the same team under the outlying management we have all seen evidently. How about Hill, Rios and Wells who promised a fledgling career if their minor league stats are worth everything. All things are not equal for player progression or recreation. Only fact agreed is how long this process can take, and certainly its not an overnight event.

Jose Bautista was rule Ved and had his development messed up with. He also would have been a star for the Pirates had he listened to the changes they suggested, since what they told him to do was basically what the Jays told him to do starting in late 2010.

It's also worth pointing out that while Arencibia's 3.5 K's per BB was bad last year, but he's at 6.88 K's per walk this year. That's a huge issue right there, as he's struggling even more to make contact compared to last year.

Just because EE/Bautista are exceptions to the rule doesn't mean Arencibia is too.

LechWalesa
06-20-2012, 09:27 PM
I guess my only point would be that you are not going to see much better production from a different back up catcher. Unless, of course, you see someone like Gomes potentially filling that void.

Eagles4Lyfe
06-20-2012, 10:13 PM
I find it amazing how attached people are to JP. I like JP, always have. But I KNOW he must go.

I kinda agree with this and I was under the impression that his intangibles were reasons why we'd keep him but having seen the beef he keeps getting into with Henderson Alvarez in pitch selection and how horrible our pitchers have been I think he can be partially blamed for their horrible pitching to.

I think we should've kept someone like Jose Molina but we need to really do something before it gets out of control.


JPA's best comparison is John Buck or that's who he reminds me of and those guys come by often not hard to get.

nithanyo
06-20-2012, 10:20 PM
I would argue that JPA has the most power of any major league catcher and he has the ability to communicate well with all the pitchers. But unfortunately thats all he has. He cant hit for average,(by average I mean a respectable .250 for a catcher), his game calling is average at best AND his ability to block is probably the worst part of his game.

Fortunately for him blocking pitches can be fixed with repition and practise. However he doesnt have much time with TDA in the wings

2009mvp
06-20-2012, 10:22 PM
I have a hunch that JP has more trade value than we think, but I kinda base that on nothing. I don't mean he's gonna net you a top prospect or something in a trade, but the talk about just dumping him is crazy to me.

Eagles4Lyfe
06-20-2012, 10:23 PM
If that's the case then why hasn't he improved on that blocking the ball aspect yet??
He still makes the same mistake with balls in the dirt

2009mvp
06-20-2012, 10:28 PM
Him stabbing at fastballs and even fanning on some altogether is more disturbing to me than his blocking (which has improved greatly). He just doesn't look confortable back there.

Eagles4Lyfe
06-20-2012, 10:30 PM
It's improved but he still makes the same positional errors when trying to stop a ball in the dirt which is frustrating at times but can't do much about it at this point.

I also agree he K'z on the same damn pitches over and over which is another frustrating thing

2009mvp
06-20-2012, 10:35 PM
To be clear I was talking about receiving pitches, not his offensive deficiencies. That's a whole nother story.

mtf
06-20-2012, 11:57 PM
I have a hunch that JP has more trade value than we think, but I kinda base that on nothing. I don't mean he's gonna net you a top prospect or something in a trade, but the talk about just dumping him is crazy to me.

I don't think anyone is suggesting you outright release him or a trade which is essentially doing the same thing. When people say they should dump him, or terminology of that nature, they obviously want the team to try to get adequate value for him via trade, they just think that removing him might be addition by subtraction as well.

Toxeryll
06-21-2012, 01:37 AM
I have a hunch that JP has more trade value than we think, but I kinda base that on nothing. I don't mean he's gonna net you a top prospect or something in a trade, but the talk about just dumping him is crazy to me.

agree. cheap controllable catcher who has power is still an asset. with that said, i still wanna see him go