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View Full Version : How about that? LeBron James.



basketfan4life
06-02-2012, 09:12 AM
I'm not gonna lie here, i hated this guy with all my heart. I'm a huge Kobe Bryant fan. Always hated his antics, taking photos, dancing on the floor. Tought he is a stats whore, not clutch, so on and on.

But as of late, i growed a huge respect for this guy's game. Come on, we are talking about the best player in the game here. I hated when he said not 1 not 2... now that i think about it, he went to a new ball club and tried to pump his fans, how is that any different from pat riley guarentiing back to back for lakers when celebrating a c'ship or Kobe saying we're going to play until June in his MVP speech. What if he teamed up with wade? while i respect Kobe or Jordan never trying to do something like that, but at the same time everybody doesn't have to think the same, a young man, living best years of his life, can do whatever he wants to do. If it is playing with one of his best friends and one of the best players in the world, so be it.

Big reason of why i hated this guy was because people tend to give him freepass to everything before he deserves, such as showing some advanced stats and ignoring all of his failures, like his play last years finals or that game 5 against boston in 2010. But we can find those type of moments in any players carreer. I know Kobe was a no show when Boston erased that 24 points deficit in game 4 of 2008 finals, i never hold that against Kobe. And i'm not gonna hold these against LBJ just to hate him. Especially if this big 3 can stay healthy, it would take 4-5 rings for me to put him in the same breath as Magic and Jordan, but if he can't i won't hate him or enjoy it.

I really deeply rooted against this guy, wanted him to never win a championship, now that i think about it, i want him to win at least once before he hangs it. He seems to work real hard and all that hard work shouldn't go down the drain without any glory.Now only thing i don't like about him is his flopping, he needs to cut that off. He is way too strong and way too good to do things like that. I hope he doesn't do it again.

One thing is for sure, Kobe Bryant is my all time favourite and it's not gonna change. His fire, drive, dedication, stubbornness, those are things i love about him. But at the same time i respect the hell out of LeBron James' game and really enjoy to watch him. He is the only player i get up 3 am in the morning(that's when nba games in my country) to watch after Kobe and the Lakers eliminated, and i know as of now he is the best player in the game.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-02-2012, 09:18 AM
Not to mention he likes to read.

Reading is good kids.

stawka
06-02-2012, 10:02 AM
Edit: I'll let everyone else do the talking around here

bucketss
06-02-2012, 10:10 AM
second laker fan to give lebron huge props now i don't know whats going on maybe this is the calm before the storm im scared :(

JasonJohnHorn
06-02-2012, 10:11 AM
I freely admit that James is the best individual player in the league, and I think most people will agree. I just don't like him. And he doesn't make players around him better. A good example of this is Antwan Jamison. Jamison was an All-star player, and when the Cavs aquired him in a trade he actually looked like a medicore players.

The thing that separates Bird and Magic and Duncan from players like Jordan and James, is that they made players around them better, where Jordan and James, while arguably the best players at their respective positions, didn't really make the players around them better. That's just my view, but I believe there is some intangible that Bird and Magic and Dunca, and for that matter Steve Nash had, that James simply does not have.

But yeah. He is the best individual player.

THE GIPPER
06-02-2012, 10:17 AM
I'm not gonna lie here, i hated this guy with all my heart. I'm a huge Kobe Bryant fan. Always hated his antics, taking photos, dancing on the floor. Tought he is a stats whore, not clutch, so on and on.

But as of late, i growed a huge respect for this guy's game. Come on, we are talking about the best player in the game here. I hated when he said not 1 not 2... now that i think about it, he went to a new ball club and tried to pump his fans, how is that any different from pat riley guarentiing back to back for lakers when celebrating a c'ship or Kobe saying we're going to play until June in his MVP speech. What if he teamed up with wade? while i respect Kobe or Jordan never trying to do something like that, but at the same time everybody doesn't have to think the same, a young man, living best years of his life, can do whatever he wants to do. If it is playing with one of his best friends and one of the best players in the world, so be it.

Big reason of why i hated this guy was because people tend to give him freepass to everything before he deserves, such as showing some advanced stats and ignoring all of his failures, like his play last years finals or that game 5 against boston in 2010. But we can find those type of moments in any players carreer. I know Kobe was a no show when Boston erased that 24 points deficit in game 4 of 2008 finals, i never hold that against Kobe. And i'm not gonna hold these against LBJ just to hate him. Especially if this big 3 can stay healthy, it would take 4-5 rings for me to put him in the same breath as Magic and Jordan, but if he can't i won't hate him or enjoy it.

I really deeply rooted against this guy, wanted him to never win a championship, now that i think about it, i want him to win at least once before he hangs it. He seems to work real hard and all that hard work shouldn't go down the drain without any glory.Now only thing i don't like about him is his flopping, he needs to cut that off. He is way too strong and way too good to do things like that. I hope he doesn't do it again.

One thing is for sure, Kobe Bryant is my all time favourite and it's not gonna change. His fire, drive, dedication, stubbornness, those are things i love about him. But at the same time i respect the hell out of LeBron James' game and really enjoy to watch him. He is the only player i get up 3 am in the morning(that's when nba games in my country) to watch after Kobe and the Lakers eliminated, and i know as of now he is the best player in the game.

Good post more people should have the same attitude.

It just sucks for some who hate on him so much that at the end of his career when he has a hall of fame resume' those people wont ever remember one of the all time greats because they were busy hating on him.

h2r09
06-02-2012, 10:36 AM
I freely admit that James is the best individual player in the league, and I think most people will agree. I just don't like him. And he doesn't make players around him better. A good example of this is Antwan Jamison. Jamison was an All-star player, and when the Cavs aquired him in a trade he actually looked like a medicore players.

The thing that separates Bird and Magic and Duncan from players like Jordan and James, is that they made players around them better, where Jordan and James, while arguably the best players at their respective positions, didn't really make the players around them better. That's just my view, but I believe there is some intangible that Bird and Magic and Dunca, and for that matter Steve Nash had, that James simply does not have.

But yeah. He is the best individual player.
YOu don't know how to watch basketball. To say Lebron doesn't make his teammates better is one of the dumbest things I've ever met.

Using Antawn Jamison is an awful example. First off, he wasn't an all star. He was the best player on a bad team. To expect him to keep his production the same going from a crappy team to the best team in the league is straight up stupidity. Second off, playing with Lebron allowed him to raise his efficiency rather than just picking up stats on a bad team.

There are many examples of guys being made better because of Lebron. The guy makes everyone around him better because he gets double teamed and has no problem with passing out of the double team, unlike kobe who will shoot.

cbreezy34
06-02-2012, 10:41 AM
I was telling my friends last night im back on the Lebron bandwagon. I hated him and the Heat an unhealthy amount last year and up until now. At this point why still hate him? He plays his *** off, is fun to watch and plays great defense.

I Rock Shaqs
06-02-2012, 11:08 AM
LOL @ the guy who said Lebron james doesn't male his teamates better.

BSplaya2121
06-02-2012, 11:10 AM
I absolutely hate LeBron in everyway possible, But damn do i respect his game. When people ask me who the best player in the NBA is, i instantly say LeBron, cant deny it.

spurs4#5
06-02-2012, 11:11 AM
Good post...the only thing that keeps me from liking this guy is that hr cries a lot on the floor and flops a lot....what I would like to see is lebron James act like a Tim Duncan or a Steve Nash...then I think a lot more people would have more respect for him

metsfanssince05
06-02-2012, 11:15 AM
I love Lebron. I just hate the heat and his decision, any where else I would of been fine with.. I hope he wins a ship but not with the Heat.

NBAfan4life
06-02-2012, 11:35 AM
I like to root against some one, currently that is the Heat. One of the great things about rooting against someone is you usually tune in and root for the other team. I still get to watch Lebron effortlessly put up insane numbers.

Lisound15
06-02-2012, 11:39 AM
The general consensus is that we all respect the **** out of lebrons game, and simply question his off court decisions (the decision to go to miami, how he handles press conferences etc. ). Good to see us all in agreement for once lol.

as a knick fan, would love to have him on my team, and i smh whenever some idiot from our fan base says melo is better than him.

Cfrey
06-02-2012, 11:47 AM
did that guy really just say LeBron doesn't make his teammates better???

so he can make a pretty decent thread about the draft lottery history and then he says something like that hahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahah ahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahah ahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahah ahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahaha

that is literally one of the most idiotic things i have ever heard

Cfrey
06-02-2012, 11:48 AM
oh and by the way I respect the original post.. its good to see when people realize there is absolutely no reason to hate a guy

rocket
06-02-2012, 11:49 AM
LeBron made a bum filled team in Cleveland look like all-stars. But no... he doesn't make his teammates better lol...

Cfrey
06-02-2012, 11:55 AM
oh and did I mention I was still LMAO that lebron doesn't make his teammates better

Cfrey
06-02-2012, 12:03 PM
one of the best ab workouts I've ever had.. can't stop laughing help me

Raps18-19 Champ
06-02-2012, 12:13 PM
I freely admit that James is the best individual player in the league, and I think most people will agree. I just don't like him. And he doesn't make players around him better. A good example of this is Antwan Jamison. Jamison was an All-star player, and when the Cavs aquired him in a trade he actually looked like a medicore players.

The thing that separates Bird and Magic and Duncan from players like Jordan and James, is that they made players around them better, where Jordan and James, while arguably the best players at their respective positions, didn't really make the players around them better. That's just my view, but I believe there is some intangible that Bird and Magic and Dunca, and for that matter Steve Nash had, that James simply does not have.

But yeah. He is the best individual player.

He was last an all star in 2008. Practically 2 years before he was acquired by the Cavs. That's like saying he failed because he couldn't win with Shaq.

Also, players did flourish around him. Mo Williams turned into an all star when he was really a 6th man at best.

JasonJohnHorn
06-02-2012, 12:46 PM
YOu don't know how to watch basketball. To say Lebron doesn't make his teammates better is one of the dumbest things I've ever met.

Using Antawn Jamison is an awful example. First off, he wasn't an all star. He was the best player on a bad team. To expect him to keep his production the same going from a crappy team to the best team in the league is straight up stupidity. Second off, playing with Lebron allowed him to raise his efficiency rather than just picking up stats on a bad team.

There are many examples of guys being made better because of Lebron. The guy makes everyone around him better because he gets double teamed and has no problem with passing out of the double team, unlike kobe who will shoot.

Maybe you've been watching a different league, but the league where Antwan Jamison posted his best number, he was on a PLAYOFF TEAM with Gilbert Arenas and Caron Bulter, and they were each posting 20+ per game.

Now that we got that cleared up, why don't you start by actually giving me an example of WHO he has made into a better player? Because I'm dying to know. The fact is, he didn't make players around him better, that's why he needed to team up with two other all-stars. If he could have made people better, he would have been able to win a ring in Cleveland.

Next time you call somebdoy stupid, at least bother putting together are arguement that employs reason, otherwise you look like the idiot.

OWNED!

khaleesi
06-02-2012, 12:48 PM
LeBron's problem is he does not like to close deals. But he makes his mates better if only b/c he makes all their assignments easier. Now,,,, does LeBron's actually help his mates get better? Really better? Talk to the coaches about that. But he does make life easier for guys like Chalmers, etc ..... they get more open looks, their D mistakes get covered up by LeBron, etc...

Raps18-19 Champ
06-02-2012, 12:58 PM
Maybe you've been watching a different league, but the league where Antwan Jamison posted his best number, he was on a PLAYOFF TEAM with Gilbert Arenas and Caron Bulter, and they were each posting 20+ per game.

Now that we got that cleared up, why don't you start by actually giving me an example of WHO he has made into a better player? Because I'm dying to know. The fact is, he didn't make players around him better, that's why he needed to team up with two other all-stars. If he could have made people better, he would have been able to win a ring in Cleveland.

Next time you call somebdoy stupid, at least bother putting together are arguement that employs reason, otherwise you look like the idiot.

OWNED!

He turned Mo Williams into an all star. He made others better by drawing the defense and giving them open shots. Lebron can't finish the shots for them but he surely can do his best to set them up properly.

basketfan4life
06-02-2012, 01:00 PM
actually, i made a thread about lebron and durant, the topic was making teammates better. People again tend to exaggrate it when it comes to LBJ. That waswhy i hated the guy in the first place. Or the guys a couple posts above made me hate him. Just because someone doesn't think he makes his teammates better they jump to question his intelligence.

Is there a need to do that? I'm done clouding my jujgement because of guys like you, but at leat don't turn this in to an insulting thread.

khaleesi
06-02-2012, 01:02 PM
He turned Mo Williams into an all star. He made others better by drawing the defense and giving them open shots. Lebron can't finish the shots for them but he surely can do his best to set them up properly.

I think LeBron biggest impact in terms of making guys better is on the Defensive end. He really covers up lots of mistakes with weak side rotations and the ground he covers is incredible.

On the offensive end, while I agree he can make his mates better by getting them open shots on the dribble drive ... I think he over dribbles a lot and his team mates become stagnant when it matters. I also think he still lack the IQ of a PG in terms of setting his team mates up for good shots.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-02-2012, 01:07 PM
I think LeBron biggest impact in terms of making guys better is on the Defensive end. He really covers up lots of mistakes with weak side rotations and the ground he covers is incredible.

On the offensive end, while I agree he can make his mates better by getting them open shots on the dribble drive ... I think he over dribbles a lot and his team mates become stagnant when it matters. I also think he still lack the IQ of a PG in terms of setting his team mates up for good shots.

It's amazing enough as it is that he can be a PG on the floor when he's not needed to though. While he does lack the IQ of a PG, I'd think it's a bit unfair to judge him in that sense when him being a PG on the floor is a great additional asset to what is expected of him at SF.

JasonJohnHorn
06-02-2012, 01:08 PM
LOL @ the guy who said Lebron james doesn't male his teamates better.

Did James make Anderson Varegao better? No. Varegao has posted his best numbers after LBJ left.

Did James make Shaq better? No. Shaq looked old, got few points and posted the second lowest FG% of his career. The next season, with Paul Pierce and the Celitcs, Shaq FG% improved by more than 10 percent?

How about Haslem? Granted, he get fewer minutes since Bosh came, but lets take a look at Haslem's FG%. Oh, wait, Haslem has had his lowest FG% of his career this season, even with LBJ passing out of the double team.

How about Wade? Does James make Wade better? Um... Wade was ALREADY an all-star BEFORE James showed up. Do they play well together? Yes, they do. But Wade isn't any better than he was before James came to Miami. Chris Bosh FG% has also gone down the last two seasons.

Mike Miller? Before LBJ: 50% fromt he field... with LBJ? 40% first year, 43% the year after. Those two seasons combined make that the lowest FG% of his career.

Shane Battier? He's also shooting the lowest FG% of his career with LBJ on the same team. Is it because he's shooting more threes? Maybe, but his 3P% has also been higher in seasons when he had McGrady instead of James.

Joel Athony? He went from being the worst option for a starting center in the league, to the worst starting center in the league.

I'm sorry... other than Mo Williams having a couple of good seasons with LBJ, I haven't seen James make anybody better. And let us not act like Mo-Will was already AVERAGING 17 POINTS PER GAME WITH THE BUCKS!!! HIS FG% AND AVERAGE WENT DOWN WITH JAMES ON HIS TEAM!!!!!

Bosh and Wade were all-stars before James came along, and neither one is better for playing with James, neither are the role players. Jamario Moon shot his lowest FG% of his career with James. Varegao has improved since James's depature. Shaq looked FAR better in Boston green than he did in Cleveland, even though he was a year older and playing through injury. And Shaq's scoring average to a 5 point hit from his previous season when he joined LBJ. Even Delonte West saw his FG% go up after he left LBJ. Leon Powe's FG% dropped 10% for the short time he played with James. And Larry Hughes saw his FG% drop each season he played with LBJ.

So, SOMEBODY, please tell me what player James has made better. I'm dying to hear this. Tell me all these numbers are wrong. Tell me that Wade and Bosh are better with James on the floor and that James made them into all-stars, and that James has made shot easier on role players because he passes out of the 'double-team'. I'm dying to hear it.

LBJ is the best basketball player on the planet, but he doesn't do what Steve Nash does and what Tim Duncan does, and that is make players around them better.

Cfrey
06-02-2012, 01:10 PM
I'm assuming u were referring to me which is completely fine because I will stand by what I said and I will question someones intelligence when they make such an absurd comment

And the fact that he used antwan Jamison as an example of why lebron doesn't make players better is absolutely hilarious.. jamison is fuxking awful and the fact he didn't play better when you have the best player in the league on your team goes to show how washed up that bum was hahahahaha never bring that scrubs name up ever again..

In 07 he took possibly one of the worst rosters ever outside of himself to the fuxking finals.. To the fuxking finals!!!!!

How does one do that without making his teammates around him better? Not sure.

So ya I will question his intelligence with such an idiotic statement

popo85
06-02-2012, 01:12 PM
Good post OP

Cfrey
06-02-2012, 01:12 PM
So because someone shoots a worse percentage with a player means its their fault?? LOL now I have heard it all! WOW LOL I forgot lebron was secretly shooting mike millers shots!!

Unbelievable get the **** out of here

LakersIn5
06-02-2012, 01:14 PM
I'm not gonna lie here, i hated this guy with all my heart. I'm a huge Kobe Bryant fan. Always hated his antics, taking photos, dancing on the floor. Tought he is a stats whore, not clutch, so on and on.

But as of late, i growed a huge respect for this guy's game. Come on, we are talking about the best player in the game here. I hated when he said not 1 not 2... now that i think about it, he went to a new ball club and tried to pump his fans, how is that any different from pat riley guarentiing back to back for lakers when celebrating a c'ship or Kobe saying we're going to play until June in his MVP speech. What if he teamed up with wade? while i respect Kobe or Jordan never trying to do something like that, but at the same time everybody doesn't have to think the same, a young man, living best years of his life, can do whatever he wants to do. If it is playing with one of his best friends and one of the best players in the world, so be it.

Big reason of why i hated this guy was because people tend to give him freepass to everything before he deserves, such as showing some advanced stats and ignoring all of his failures, like his play last years finals or that game 5 against boston in 2010. But we can find those type of moments in any players carreer. I know Kobe was a no show when Boston erased that 24 points deficit in game 4 of 2008 finals, i never hold that against Kobe. And i'm not gonna hold these against LBJ just to hate him. Especially if this big 3 can stay healthy, it would take 4-5 rings for me to put him in the same breath as Magic and Jordan, but if he can't i won't hate him or enjoy it.

I really deeply rooted against this guy, wanted him to never win a championship, now that i think about it, i want him to win at least once before he hangs it. He seems to work real hard and all that hard work shouldn't go down the drain without any glory.Now only thing i don't like about him is his flopping, he needs to cut that off. He is way too strong and way too good to do things like that. I hope he doesn't do it again.

One thing is for sure, Kobe Bryant is my all time favourite and it's not gonna change. His fire, drive, dedication, stubbornness, those are things i love about him. But at the same time i respect the hell out of LeBron James' game and really enjoy to watch him. He is the only player i get up 3 am in the morning(that's when nba games in my country) to watch after Kobe and the Lakers eliminated, and i know as of now he is the best player in the game.

totally agree! haters always find a way to bash lebron. when lebron joined the heat haters said he joined wade's team cuz he cant do it by himself blah blah blah. if he would have joined the knicks haters would say that he went for the money and the big market and to pad stats under d'antoni. and if he would have stayed in cleveland haters would continue to hate him for always failing to win a championship with that terrible roster. its always a lose situation for lebron.

nycericanguy
06-02-2012, 01:14 PM
Good post more people should have the same attitude.

It just sucks for some who hate on him so much that at the end of his career when he has a hall of fame resume' those people wont ever remember one of the all time greats because they were busy hating on him.

Some of the players I remember most are the ones I hated.

I HATED Reggie Miller as a Knick fan, but I respected him.

I HATE Paul Pierce, but I respect him.

I think everyone can agree Lebron is hands down the best player in the NBA. There are alot of reasons he doesn't get loved like an MJ did and we all know these reasons.

I just don't think MIA as a team is very likeable to anyone not in MIA. You have 2 of the top 5 players in the league, and a top 5-8 PF. It's almost not fair, yet with all that talent do those 3 guys really need to be out there flopping like fish out of water trying to get calls? It's just another reason MIA is not a liked team. But that doesn't mean Lebron & co aren't respected.

JasonJohnHorn
06-02-2012, 01:20 PM
So because someone shoots a worse percentage with a player means its their fault?? LOL now I have heard it all! WOW LOL I forgot lebron was secretly shooting mike millers shots!!

Unbelievable get the **** out of here

So lets hear it. Who is better with James on the floor? Who get easier shots because of him? Why do all these players see their FG% go down playing alongside James? I thought he made them better? Surely somebdoy's FG% has gone up playing with James, since he gets them easy open shots? Lets hear it? Who is better because LBJ plays with them?

LakersIn5
06-02-2012, 01:22 PM
Maybe you've been watching a different league, but the league where Antwan Jamison posted his best number, he was on a PLAYOFF TEAM with Gilbert Arenas and Caron Bulter, and they were each posting 20+ per game.

Now that we got that cleared up, why don't you start by actually giving me an example of WHO he has made into a better player? Because I'm dying to know. The fact is, he didn't make players around him better, that's why he needed to team up with two other all-stars. If he could have made people better, he would have been able to win a ring in Cleveland.

Next time you call somebdoy stupid, at least bother putting together are arguement that employs reason, otherwise you look like the idiot.

OWNED!

nah. stars also need talented teamates to win. lebron's teammates in cleveland lacked talent. and by that logic from that quote and your first comment then why didnt steve nash win a ring if you mentioned him with bird,magic,duncan,nash as players who make their teammates better?

Raps18-19 Champ
06-02-2012, 01:22 PM
Did James make Anderson Varegao better? No. Varegao has posted his best numbers after LBJ left.

Did James make Shaq better? No. Shaq looked old, got few points and posted the second lowest FG% of his career. The next season, with Paul Pierce and the Celitcs, Shaq FG% improved by more than 10 percent?

How about Haslem? Granted, he get fewer minutes since Bosh came, but lets take a look at Haslem's FG%. Oh, wait, Haslem has had his lowest FG% of his career this season, even with LBJ passing out of the double team.

How about Wade? Does James make Wade better? Um... Wade was ALREADY an all-star BEFORE James showed up. Do they play well together? Yes, they do. But Wade isn't any better than he was before James came to Miami. Chris Bosh FG% has also gone down the last two seasons.

Mike Miller? Before LBJ: 50% fromt he field... with LBJ? 40% first year, 43% the year after. Those two seasons combined make that the lowest FG% of his career.

Shane Battier? He's also shooting the lowest FG% of his career with LBJ on the same team. Is it because he's shooting more threes? Maybe, but his 3P% has also been higher in seasons when he had McGrady instead of James.

Joel Athony? He went from being the worst option for a starting center in the league, to the worst starting center in the league.

I'm sorry... other than Mo Williams having a couple of good seasons with LBJ, I haven't seen James make anybody better.

Bosh and Wade were all-stars before James came along, and neither one is better for playing with James, neither are the role players. Jamario Moon shot his lowest FG% of his career with James. Varegao has improved since James's depature. Shaq looked FAR better in Boston green than he did in Cleveland, even though he was a year older and playing through injury. And Shaq's scoring average to a 5 point hit from his previous season when he joined LBJ. Even Delonte West saw his FG% go up after he left LBJ. Leon Powe's FG% dropped 10% for the short time he played with James. And Larry Hughes saw his FG% drop each season he played with LBJ.

So, SOMEBODY, please tell me what player James has made better. I'm dying to hear this. Tell me all these numbers are wrong. Tell me that Wade and Bosh are better with James on the floor and that James made them into all-stars, and that James has made shot easier on role players because he passes out of the 'double-team'. I'm dying to hear it.

LBJ is the best basketball player on the planet, but he doesn't do what Steve Nash does and what Tim Duncan does, and that is make players around them better.

I'm not too sure why you say it's Lebron's fault his teammates can't make open shots when he's done the best he can in getting them open. I think he should get some blame but not the amount you give him. Have you ever thought that maybe the system he plays in is not the same that his teammates excel in? That's exactly what happened with Nash before. He wasn't as successful in Dallas compared to when he was with the Suns, yet he was essentially the exact same player on each team, just different systems.

Shaq, Battier and Varejao are barely offensive threats and are half court players.
Haslem is better suited at half court plays while the Heat have played the fastest pace the Heat have played in a long time.
Now Mo Williams on the other hand can play faster, which is why he excels.
Not too sure what happened to Miller though.
Joel Anthony is just a straight up bum so don't even bother because the greatest of playmakers can't fix his stone hands. I mean Chris Paul can't fix Reggie Evans, I guess he is not good at making his team mates better?

Dirk played better when Nash left. Antoine Walker dropped in scoring in his only year with Nash and improved his PPG when he stopped playing with Nash, even when adjusted by per 36 mins. I guess Nash isn't good at making his team mates better because some of his team mates did not complement his fast paced game.

Lakeshow24KB
06-02-2012, 01:23 PM
Lebron with Kobe's mentality.... :drool:

JasonJohnHorn
06-02-2012, 01:27 PM
nah. stars also need talented teamates to win. lebron's teammates in cleveland lacked talent. and by that logic from that quote and your first comment then why didnt steve nash win a ring if you mentioned him with bird,magic,duncan,nash as players who make their teammates better?

So because Steve Nash doesn't have a ring he doens't make those around him better? Do you believe that?

Nash is the greatest facilitator of his generation. Duncan is a close second and for the generation to come I see CP3 as the greatest facilitator based on what he has done so far.

James is not even in the conversation. James is simply the best basketball player on the planet, but he doesn't make players better the way Nash and Duncan do. He doesn't. Cleveland was a better team with him on it, obviously, and he carried the load, but he didn't make things easier for his teammates. Part of that was coaching, Mike Brown is a horrible offensive coach, but part of it is the way he dominate the ball. I'm not saying he doesnt play well with Wade, he and Wade have great chemistry, but Wade was already the best SG in the league before LBJ came along. And Bosh's best years are behind him. He will never post numbers like he did in Toronto, part of that is because he has to share the ball with two other all-stars, but then why is his FG% taking a hit? Shouldn't it be going higher?

LakersIn5
06-02-2012, 01:27 PM
So lets hear it. Who is better with James on the floor? Who get easier shots because of him? Why do all these players see their FG% go down playing alongside James? I thought he made them better? Surely somebdoy's FG% has gone up playing with James, since he gets them easy open shots? Lets hear it? Who is better because LBJ plays with them?

by your logic of antawn jamison then i guess duncan doesnt make his teammates better. because richard jefferson sucked it up in san antonio.

LakersIn5
06-02-2012, 01:29 PM
So because Steve Nash doesn't have a ring he doens't make those around him better? Do you believe that?

Nash is the greatest facilitator of his generation. Duncan is a close second and for the generation to come I see CP3 as the greatest facilitator based on what he has done so far.

James is not even in the conversation. James is simply the best basketball player on the planet, but he doesn't make players better the way Nash and Duncan do. He doesn't. Cleveland was a better team with him on it, obviously, and he carried the load, but he didn't make things easier for his teammates. Part of that was coaching, Mike Brown is a horrible offensive coach, but part of it is the way he dominate the ball. I'm not saying he doesnt play well with Wade, he and Wade have great chemistry, but Wade was already the best SG in the league before LBJ came along. And Bosh's best years are behind him. He will never post numbers like he did in Toronto, part of that is because he has to share the ball with two other all-stars, but then why is his FG% taking a hit? Shouldn't it be going higher?

So because Lebron James doesn't have a ring doens't make those around him better? Do you believe that?

and do you have a freaking memory problem? you said this
If he could have made people better, he would have been able to win a ring in Cleveland. how does this apply to lebron but not to steve nash? because if nash made people better then why didnt he been able to win a ring? based on your logic.

JasonJohnHorn
06-02-2012, 01:32 PM
Dirk played better when Nash left. Antoine Walker dropped in scoring in his only year with Nash and improved his PPG when he stopped playing with Nash, even when adjusted by per 36 mins. I guess Nash isn't good at making his team mates better because some of his team mates did not complement his fast paced game.

If you are going to say Nash doesn't make players better, we can't even begin to have a reasonable conversation.

Marion
Amare
Biaw
Joe Johnson
Q-Rich
Barbosa

Nash took a team that won 29 games, a team who had an All-Star PG in Marbury mind you, and won them 62 games! A 33 game turnaround. And they went from the lottery to the conference finals where the lost to the Spurs after having several players suspended.

Do you honestly believe that Nash doesn't make players better?

khaleesi
06-02-2012, 01:32 PM
So lets hear it. Who is better with James on the floor? Who get easier shots because of him? Why do all these players see their FG% go down playing alongside James? I thought he made them better? Surely somebdoy's FG% has gone up playing with James, since he gets them easy open shots? Lets hear it? Who is better because LBJ plays with them?

I think this gets to the point I made that LeBron is essentially a PG, he dominates the ball, he does not have a PG IQ and he does not run an offense that well. Outside of pick and pop passes or pass to the 3 arc on the dribble drive what does he do to make his mates better????

I get what you are saying and I agree but he does make his team mates better. Just not the way you expect of a great PG.

khaleesi
06-02-2012, 01:34 PM
If you are going to say Nash doesn't make players better, we can't even begin to have a reasonable conversation.

Marion
Amare
Biaw
Joe Johnson
Q-Rich
Barbosa

Nash took a team that won 29 games, a team who had an All-Star PG in Marbury mind you, and won them 62 games! A 33 game turnaround. And they went from the lottery to the conference finals where the lost to the Spurs after having several players suspended.

Do you honestly believe that Nash doesn't make players better?

Nash is a PG. He knows how to play. He understand match-ups. He actually knows how to throw a pass into the post. He knows how to get a lob into a guy fronting. He knows how to play inside-out ball. Oh, yeah and he runs the Pick and Roll as good as Stockton in his hey day.

LeBron is no Nash on the PG IQ chart. And that is what I think is the issue with LeBron's game. He really wants to be a PG. He does not want to be Jordan. But his best skill sets are that of Jordan. Not Magic Johnson.

Old saying in basketball when picking teams or recruiting "If you want to know what position the kid will excell at, ask him what he thinks he is and if it makes sense put him there."

Look at Perry Jones from Baylor. Dude is a SG stuck in a hyper athletic PF body. Anybody taking Perry Jones to be anything but a Guard will doom him to failure. LeBron wants to be a PG even if his IQ for it lacks. LeBron is not a wing player which is why he is not a Small Forward.

JasonJohnHorn
06-02-2012, 01:35 PM
by your logic of antawn jamison then i guess duncan doesnt make his teammates better. because richard jefferson sucked it up in san antonio.

Incase you aren't reading, I've noted MORE THAN TEN PLAYERS who had worse numbers with James. You've named won player for Duncan, Duncan, the man who is going to earn his FIFTH RING THIS YEAR!!!! To James, who has zero rings, despite having the team with the best record TWICE, and despite having the best SG in the league on his team and one of the best PF's in the league.

Ok... now let us use reason.

I can go through the names of the players Duncan has made better, but I know you already know Duncan makes players better.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-02-2012, 01:39 PM
If you are going to say Nash doesn't make players better, we can't even begin to have a reasonable conversation.

Marion
Amare
Biaw
Joe Johnson
Q-Rich
Barbosa

Nash took a team that won 29 games, a team who had an All-Star PG in Marbury mind you, and won them 62 games! A 33 game turnaround. And they went from the lottery to the conference finals where the lost to the Spurs after having several players suspended.

Do you honestly believe that Nash doesn't make players better?

No, I DO think Nash makes his team mates better. That's my point.

I said that it's not Lebron's fault that his team mates didn't match his style of play. Just like it wasn't Nash's fault guys like Jamsion, Dirk and Walker dropped or didn't work out because they didn't mesh well either.

Now when Nash was with guys that play with his STRENGTHS, he was successful. Lebron never had that luxury with the exception of a 1-2 players every now and then.

Fast paced players and half court players often don't mix. That's the situation Lebron has to deal with. Yet it's his fault that the players he plays with don't necessarily play to his strengths? I'm not saying Lebron had shitbox team mates all the time, but they just don't work well together.

khaleesi
06-02-2012, 01:43 PM
No, I DO think Nash makes his team mates better. That's my point.

I said that it's not Lebron's fault that his team mates didn't match his style of play. Just like it wasn't Nash's fault guys like Jamsion, Dirk and Walker dropped or didn't work out because they didn't mesh well either.

Now when Nash was with guys that play with his STRENGTHS, he was successful. Lebron never had that luxury with the exception of a 1-2 players every now and then.

Fast paced players and half court players often don't mix. That's the situation Lebron has to deal with. Yet it's his fault that the players he plays with don't necessarily play to his strengths? I'm not saying Lebron had shitbox team mates all the time, but they just don't work well together.

I am sorry but to say LeBron has always lacked talent to win it all is BS. Last year, they should have won. Period. The Spurs year, the Cavs should have at least won a game.

Again, LeBron is a talent but he has flaws which make for interesting problems. He has the skills sets of a Small Forward but he loves to play Point Guard. His team lack direction at key points in games and if his sheer athleticism does not carry him through the challenge he lack the BB IQ to do so.

It creates some problems on the court for any team LeBron is on. You can be the best C/PF/SF/SG/PG on your team but you can not play all five spots. You need to find your role, stick to it, and push others to do theirs.

Magic Johnson understood this and he was likely his teams best PG/SG/SF/PF ......

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-02-2012, 01:45 PM
So because someone shoots a worse percentage with a player means its their fault?? LOL now I have heard it all! WOW LOL I forgot lebron was secretly shooting mike millers shots!!

Unbelievable get the **** out of here

Bron is the best player in the league, but you are completely wrong. Brons teammates dont just shoot a lower fg%. Their entire game seems to fall off. Especially Bosh and Wade. But I'm not just referring to Bosh and Wade's numbers/efficiency. I am talking about just about all players that are on Brons teams. I dont have time to delve into why I think these guys dont produce once they are teamed up with him, but I'll post some of their numbers. These are mainly players that played without Lebron, and then with him that had big roles on his Cleveland and Miami teams. There is a very steady trend. Most of them played better before or after they were relegated to standing in the corner hoping a pass would come their way.

This is what they have done along side of Lebron James

Chalmers, had a better rookie season then he did these past two years.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chalmma01.html

Haslem, worst two years of career
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hasleud01.html

Wade, two of his worse years in the league
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html

Bosh has had his two worst years since his first two seasons.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html

Joel Anthony last year had his worst year of his career, this year had one of his better ones.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anthojo01.html

James Jones has had two of his better years with James
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jonesja02.html

Shane Battier had his worst season ever next to Lebron but you cant really fault him. He has been trending down for the past couple of years.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/battish01.html

Mike Miller has had his two worst years of his career as well. Might have been the injury, maybe does not fit Lebron's skill sets. But that may be Lebrons problem. You have to be so specific in the type of players you put around him, or else they dont succeed. You dont want too good of a point guard because Lebron likes to have the ball. You dont want a great slasher/ drive and kick man because thats what Lebron does, and he is not one to spread the floor for the drive and kick type player. You dont want a big man who lives in the post asking to be fed the ball because it clogs up the paint for Lebrons drives and you dont get assist when you dump the ball into the post etc etc etc.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/millemi01.html

Mo Williams had his best season at 25, right before he went to Cleveland. Then declined every year after.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html

Delonte West had average years in Cleveland
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westde01.html

Wally had his two worst season next to Lebron. Granted, he was 30 and 31.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/szczewa02.html

Larry Hughes had 6 productive years before he went to Cleveland, then fell off the map.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hughela01.html

Damon Jones had his best year in Miami at age 28, but once he goes to Cleveland, he falls off the map at age 29
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jonesda01.html

Drew Gooden has a funny career arc. He had good seasons until his first season in Cleveland when he had his best season at age 23. The next three years he falls off the map while playing with Lebron. As soon as he is traded to the Bulls, he starts producing again and has been ever since. He had his three worst years of his career next to Lebron at ages 24, 25, and 26. Typically when a player starts to maximize his efficiency.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/goodedr01.html


What would you say causes these players career arcs look off. They seem to rise until they play along side Bron, then they seem to decline for no reason, but once he leaves their production efficiency go back up. A players arc is not supposed to look like rolling hills. And you would not think that their production/efficiency is not at the bottom of the hill when they play along such a great player.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-02-2012, 01:48 PM
I am sorry but to say LeBron has always lacked talent to win it all is BS. Last year, they should have won. Period. The Spurs year, the Cavs should have at least won a game.

Again, LeBron is a talent but he has flaws which make for interesting problems. He has the skills sets of a Small Forward but he loves to play Point Guard.

It creates some problems on the court.

Where did I say his team lacked talent? My last post completely states that I'm not saying that his team always sucked, but rather the team didn't always mesh well together in terms of playing styles. Look at the Heat right now. It's bascially Lebron and Wade then everyone else. Lebron, and Wade are good playing fast paced while Bosh and the rest are better half court players. So 1 has to adjust. Either Wade and Lebron to half court or the rest to play a bit faster. Clearly, it was the rest who needed to adjust, and you're seeing the results as they can't adjust to play a game they aren't suited to play. Hell even Wade dropped off a bit since even Wade doesn't complement Lebron because they are the same players. Have someone like Amare beside Lebron and you'll flourish.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-02-2012, 01:51 PM
I did not like Lebron for a while either. But if you think about it, he has never done anything really that bad. He definitely does not deserve the hate he got the past couple of years. He is an entertainer, and one of the best at it. I love watching him play. Guy is a beast of beast

khaleesi
06-02-2012, 01:52 PM
Where did I say his team lacked talent? My last post completely states that I'm not saying that his team always sucked, but rather the team didn't always mesh well together in terms of playing styles. Look at the Heat right now. It's bascially Lebron and Wade then everyone else. Lebron, and Wade are good playing fast paced while Bosh and the rest are better half court players. So 1 has to adjust. Either Wade and Lebron to half court or the rest to play a bit faster. Clearly, it was the rest who needed to adjust, and you're seeing the results as they can't adjust to play a game they aren't suited to play. Hell even Wade dropped off a bit since even Wade doesn't complement Lebron because they are the same players. Have someone like Amare beside Lebron and you'll flourish.

And this is point on why LeBron does not make his team mates better necessarily.

Being a great player is an art form. LeBron still lacks the IQ in spite of what he has in spades athletically.

It really hurts him.

shizzle09
06-02-2012, 01:56 PM
Did James make Anderson Varegao better? No. Varegao has posted his best numbers after LBJ left.

Did James make Shaq better? No. Shaq looked old, got few points and posted the second lowest FG% of his career. The next season, with Paul Pierce and the Celitcs, Shaq FG% improved by more than 10 percent?

How about Haslem? Granted, he get fewer minutes since Bosh came, but lets take a look at Haslem's FG%. Oh, wait, Haslem has had his lowest FG% of his career this season, even with LBJ passing out of the double team.

How about Wade? Does James make Wade better? Um... Wade was ALREADY an all-star BEFORE James showed up. Do they play well together? Yes, they do. But Wade isn't any better than he was before James came to Miami. Chris Bosh FG% has also gone down the last two seasons.

Mike Miller? Before LBJ: 50% fromt he field... with LBJ? 40% first year, 43% the year after. Those two seasons combined make that the lowest FG% of his career.

Shane Battier? He's also shooting the lowest FG% of his career with LBJ on the same team. Is it because he's shooting more threes? Maybe, but his 3P% has also been higher in seasons when he had McGrady instead of James.

Joel Athony? He went from being the worst option for a starting center in the league, to the worst starting center in the league.

I'm sorry... other than Mo Williams having a couple of good seasons with LBJ, I haven't seen James make anybody better. And let us not act like Mo-Will was already AVERAGING 17 POINTS PER GAME WITH THE BUCKS!!! HIS FG% AND AVERAGE WENT DOWN WITH JAMES ON HIS TEAM!!!!!

Bosh and Wade were all-stars before James came along, and neither one is better for playing with James, neither are the role players. Jamario Moon shot his lowest FG% of his career with James. Varegao has improved since James's depature. Shaq looked FAR better in Boston green than he did in Cleveland, even though he was a year older and playing through injury. And Shaq's scoring average to a 5 point hit from his previous season when he joined LBJ. Even Delonte West saw his FG% go up after he left LBJ. Leon Powe's FG% dropped 10% for the short time he played with James. And Larry Hughes saw his FG% drop each season he played with LBJ.

So, SOMEBODY, please tell me what player James has made better. I'm dying to hear this. Tell me all these numbers are wrong. Tell me that Wade and Bosh are better with James on the floor and that James made them into all-stars, and that James has made shot easier on role players because he passes out of the 'double-team'. I'm dying to hear it.

LBJ is the best basketball player on the planet, but he doesn't do what Steve Nash does and what Tim Duncan does, and that is make players around them better.

even in a thread that has amazingly stayed quite calm there's always one. congrats. thats you. those examples are attrocious and i'm not even gonna spend my time finding the stats to prove anything. Its quite obvious you searched out for specific players whose stats were worse with him for the simple fact you listed JOEL ANTHONY!!! Mike Miller? he's been hurt or playing hurt since we signed him. Battier? He was signed to play a specific role on the Heat and he's doing that fine. Wade? His stats are obviously gonna take a hit playing alongside Lebron but he's still playing like D Wade. Shaq? He was on the end of his career. lmfao Varejo????? WOW EVERYONE with the exception of you understands what Lebron does in regards to making his team better. all you've established is that you dont really understand the game. no offense im just saying

Raps18-19 Champ
06-02-2012, 01:57 PM
And this is point on why LeBron does not make his team mates better necessarily.

Being a great player is an art form. LeBron still lacks the IQ in spite of what he has in spades athletically.

It really hurts him.

That's not how it works though. We've seen it so many times. I gave a perfect example with Nash. Nash, who is great at making his team mates better, wasn;t as successful when he played him Dallas because the other main players were better suited to play slower than Nash (Dirk, Jamison, Walker). Get players who he can play with and you'll see the perfect results.

It's like being a teacher. If someone learns a certain way and you teach in a way that isn't suited for that student, you're not going to see the greatest of results. If you and your student are on the same page, it's easier to get those A's.

808Nate
06-02-2012, 01:59 PM
Lebron is undeniably the most freakish athlete on the nba, in economics we call that an absolute advantage, but his is temporary, all great basketball players had a move or a zone where when they were in it you knew you could count on them, lebron has neither, the only time hes in the "zone" is when his team is up 20 and they are running the scoreboard up. Hes probably the most athletic person in regards to size/speed/strength but he lacks the intangibles, killer instinct, mental toughness, grittiness, im sure he will get one, but keep hes the greatet bball player ever, cuz if he counts, so does lil bowwow from like mike, 4'6" dunking? GOAT!!:cool:

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-02-2012, 02:02 PM
That's not how it works though. We've seen it so many times. I gave a perfect example with Nash. Nash, who is great at making his team mates better, wasn;t as successful when he played him Dallas because the other main players were better suited to play slower than Nash (Dirk, Jamison, Walker). Get players who he can play with and you'll see the perfect results.

It's like being a teacher. If someone learns a certain way and you teach in a way that isn't suited for that student, you're not going to see the greatest of results. If you and your student are on the same page, it's easier to get those A's.

So can you show the players that actually benefited playing along side of Lebron? Other people have given numerous examples but all I see are excuses as to why they played worse along side him. In theory, he should make his teammates better. But that theory has not come to fruition too many times.

You brought up the few people that did not play better along side Nash, but he has so many others that had career years with him as their leader. Cant say the same for Lebron.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-02-2012, 02:02 PM
even in a thread that has amazingly stayed quite calm there's always one. congrats. thats you. those examples are attrocious and i'm not even gonna spend my time finding the stats to prove anything. Its quite obvious you searched out for specific players whose stats were worse with him for the simple fact you listed JOEL ANTHONY!!! Mike Miller? he's been hurt or playing hurt since we signed him. Battier? He was signed to play a specific role on the Heat and he's doing that fine. Wade? His stats are obviously gonna take a hit playing alongside Lebron but he's still playing like D Wade. Shaq? He was on the end of his career. lmfao Varejo????? WOW EVERYONE with the exception of you understands what Lebron does in regards to making his team better. all you've established is that you dont really understand the game. no offense im just saying

So can you show the players that actually benefited playing along side of Lebron? Other people have given numerous examples but all I see are excuses as to why they played worse along side him. In theory, he should make his teammates better. But that theory has not come to fruition too many times.

Lakers + Giants
06-02-2012, 02:09 PM
I used to hate lebron too. Now I realize I'm watching greatness and should just enjoy watching one of the best of all time. I respect his game now.

With that said, All the hate I had towards Lebron is directed to Blake Griffin now. :)

Raps18-19 Champ
06-02-2012, 02:09 PM
So can you show the players that actually benefited playing along side of Lebron? Other people have given numerous examples but all I see are excuses as to why they played worse along side him. In theory, he should make his teammates better. But that theory has not come to fruition too many times.

It's not excuses when it's fact, is it. I'd think it would be better to show teammates of those who are hailed to be then next. We seem to be pulling a double standard. Not sure how someone can say that Lebron is a bad team mate when people hail Nash, and other 'great team mates' yet have had less than subpar success when they are put in less than stellar situations.


You brought up the few people that did not play better along side Nash, but he has so many others that had career years with him as their leader. Cant say the same for Lebron.

Exactly my point. I'm not too sure how you can't understand that. You get someone who complements your style, you're going to see better results.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-02-2012, 02:20 PM
[QUOTE]It's not excuses when it's fact, is it. I'd think it would be better to show teammates of those who are hailed to be then next. We seem to be pulling a double standard. Not sure how someone can say that Lebron is a bad team mate when people hail Nash, and other 'great team mates' yet have had less than subpar success when they are put in less than stellar situations.

But like I said, you can find some example of all great players, and teammates they had a negative affect on. But there are also many examples of them having a very visible impact on other teammates improvement in production/efficiency. Nash has done wonders for multiple teammates so it makes the few that did not excel with him seem like the minority. Lebron does not have those glaring examples of making players better to counter the negative ones



Exactly my point. I'm not too sure how you can't understand that. You get someone who complements your style, you're going to see better results.

That seems to be Lebrons problem. There seems to be no player in the league that his style compliments. I only say this because it is reflected in the numbers. Wade has suffered statistically in Lebrons system and they are essentially the same player. Bosh has down right fallen off playing along side James, but you would think with his ability to pick and pop, they would mesh perfectly. NOT HAPPENING! So who's fault is it? Is it the every teammate he's ever had fault for not producing when he is their teammate, or should Lebron take some of the blame for running the offense as he does?

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-02-2012, 02:27 PM
Seems Raps left the thread. I hope he went to go find some evidence to back his claims... Can anyone step up an find someone that has truly excelled with Lebron at the wheel? Dont worry, I'll wait.

basketfan4life
06-02-2012, 02:52 PM
Seems Raps left the thread. I hope he went to go find some evidence to back his claims... Can anyone step up an find someone that has truly excelled with Lebron at the wheel? Dont worry, I'll wait.

Look, i create another thread about that in the past, his style is so ball dominant, that's the cause of it. I agree with everything you just said. But i also think he needs a coach that actually has some half court offensive sets to do it. Kobe had very good years lately in his carreer about making teammates better, but once Mike Brown arrived he completely sucked at it too.

JasonJohnHorn
06-02-2012, 02:54 PM
even in a thread that has amazingly stayed quite calm there's always one. congrats. thats you. those examples are attrocious and i'm not even gonna spend my time finding the stats to prove anything. Its quite obvious you searched out for specific players whose stats were worse with him for the simple fact you listed JOEL ANTHONY!!! Mike Miller? he's been hurt or playing hurt since we signed him. Battier? He was signed to play a specific role on the Heat and he's doing that fine. Wade? His stats are obviously gonna take a hit playing alongside Lebron but he's still playing like D Wade. Shaq? He was on the end of his career. lmfao Varejo????? WOW EVERYONE with the exception of you understands what Lebron does in regards to making his team better. all you've established is that you dont really understand the game. no offense im just saying

All you've done is say I'm wrong. You have proved nothing.

Somebody, PLEASE, give me some sort of quantifiable evidence that LBJ makes players better. Just name ONE player he makes better and why? Is that that much to ask?

basketfan4life
06-02-2012, 03:05 PM
Well ManRam once said me LBJ made every single one of cavs teammates better. May be you should ask him personally.

But Chronz once said, he is so dominant both ways may be making people better doesn't even matter in the end. He might be spot on too.

NothingbutWill
06-02-2012, 03:07 PM
You guys don't seem to get the point when people say Lebron makes his teammates better. He makes the whole team better and not just 1 individual. I do think Lebron makes this teammates play better but as a team, not an individual. You can throw up stats all you like but if you watch basketball, you can definitely see it. This is something no stats can give an answer to.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-02-2012, 03:09 PM
Look, i create another thread about that in the past, his style is so ball dominant, that's the cause of it. I agree with everything you just said. But i also think he needs a coach that actually has some half court offensive sets to do it. Kobe had very good years lately in his carreer about making teammates better, but once Mike Brown arrived he completely sucked at it too.

I think that is the reason as well. But it does not change the fact that their is a very big misconception that he makes his teammates better. History, and the stats tell a completely different story. Maybe after 8 years in the league he would think to change his game so that his teammates have a bigger role in the offense, as opposed to standing around waiting to see if a pass comes their way where they are asked to catch and shoot to pad Lebrons assist numbers. Or set screens for Lebron so he could get to the rim or kick out of the aforementioned pass.

His skill set is so great, his coaches overuse him to be able to maximize his numbers and run the offense. Problem with that is you cant replicate a player of his ability off the bench. So when he takes a breather, the team is asked to run an offense that is not ran or practiced for the majority of the season.

That is why I never liked the excuses that were given to Lebron for his teams failing. Everyone always blamed his teammates, and said they did not produce enough. But maybe, just maybe, Lebron and the coaching staff are to blame for his teammates inability to step up.

TmacBryant
06-02-2012, 03:09 PM
second laker fan to give lebron huge props now i don't know whats going on maybe this is the calm before the storm im scared :(

hold meeeeeeeeeeee.

basketfan4life
06-02-2012, 03:09 PM
Only player that can win a c'ship with the style of play Lebron plays is Lebron himself. Iverson to me was litterally Lebron james stucked in a 6'1 body... Their style of play are very similar, even their assist numbers. The differences are mainly %fg and reboumd numbers which can be explained by height difference. Being 6'1 didn't cut it. Being 6'9 can cut it, we'll see.

basketfan4life
06-02-2012, 03:14 PM
I think that is the reason as well. But it does not change the fact that their is a very big misconception that he makes him teammates better. History, and the stats tell a completely different story. Maybe after 8 years in the league he would think to change his game so that his teammates have a bigger role in the offense, as opposed to standing around waiting to see if a pass comes their way where they are asked to catch and shoot to pad Lebrons assist numbers. Or set screens for Lebron so he could get to the rim or kick out of the aforementioned pass.

His skill set is so great, his coaches overuse him to be able to maximize his numbers and run the offense. Problem with that is you cant replicate a player of his ability off the bench. So when he take a breather, the team is asked to run an offense that is not ran or practiced for the majority of the season.

That is why I never liked the excuses that were given to Lebron for his teams failing. Everyone always blamed his teammates, and said they did not produce enough. But maybe, just maybe, Lebron and the coaching staff are to blame for his teammates inability to step up.

i agree with everything. I said exact same stuff once upon a time. And i got bashed to hell. That was one of the reasons i hated LBJ. You can not say anything negative about him. But lately i realized, i can close my ears to those people and watch and enjoy his greatness.I'm doing that now, it's a relief.

NothingbutWill
06-02-2012, 03:15 PM
Liked how this "I respect Lebron" thread turned into "Lebron doesn't make his teammates better" thread.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-02-2012, 03:17 PM
basketfan4life;22385140]Well ManRam once said me LBJ made every single one of cavs teammates better. May be you should ask him personally.

I am sorry, I just dont see how that is accurate. I wish he was here to elaborate why he thinks that is the case. Is it because they got to the finals? Well, AI took a far less talented team to the finals, and beat one of the best teams ever in the playoffs. Does AI make his teammates better than Lebron? All I'm saying is someone had to come out of the east those years. We seen how much better Lebron made his teammates once they faced a real team in the finals. Everyone knew the East was not comparable to the west. So eastern conference champs are = to being the tallest midget.



But Chronz once said, he is so dominant both ways may be making people better doesn't even matter in the end. He might be spot on too.

That may prove to be true. And I could see Lebron going ape $h1t and dominating everyone all the way to a championship. But it has not happened yet so we cant say that is true for sure. So far, history shows us that if he spent a little more time allowing his teammates to carry a bigger load, they maybe ready to come up big when his talent alone was not enough to get his teams over the hump.

basketfan4life
06-02-2012, 03:18 PM
Liked how this "I respect Lebron" thread turned into "Lebron doesn't make his teammates better" thread.

Yeah it somehow got out of hand, he is the best individual player , i wanted to appreciate it, but it came down to this. Amazing, ha ?

dee279
06-02-2012, 03:23 PM
Maybe you've been watching a different league, but the league where Antwan Jamison posted his best number, he was on a PLAYOFF TEAM with Gilbert Arenas and Caron Bulter, and they were each posting 20+ per game.

Now that we got that cleared up, why don't you start by actually giving me an example of WHO he has made into a better player? Because I'm dying to know. The fact is, he didn't make players around him better, that's why he needed to team up with two other all-stars. If he could have made people better, he would have been able to win a ring in Cleveland.

Next time you call somebdoy stupid, at least bother putting together are arguement that employs reason, otherwise you look like the idiot.

OWNED!

Actually you didnt OWNED! Anybody. The guy made it to the playoffs with guys who are now stuck on the bench. He made Sasha Pavlovic look like a formidable NBA player, he maid Mo Williams look an all star, he made Varajao look like more then a practice dummy, and really made alot of guys 3 point shooters because they were always open and he was such a great passer. Bringing up Jamison was IMO a dumb reason to believe he cant make no one better. jamison was like over 30 so his getting better days were over. I think we can all see Jamison is not an all star no more and he wasnt when he went to Cleveland. If Lebron was not able to make anyone better, that bum filled team in cleveland that he was on would have never been able to make the playoffs, more less get the best record in the NBA.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-02-2012, 03:24 PM
i agree with everything. I said exact same stuff once upon a time. And i got bashed to hell. That was one of the reasons i hated LBJ. You can not say anything negative about him. But lately i realized, i can close my ears to those people and watch and enjoy his greatness.I'm doing that now, it's a relief.

Why would you get bashed to hell? Is it wrong to point out facts? Its not hating on him. You can respect his game and point out a deficiency. At least you should be able to. I get into arguments with fans and Laker fans all the time defending Lebron. Only when they say some absurd crap though. But there are flaws to his game/game plan that are obvious to me.

RLundi
06-02-2012, 03:31 PM
Maybe you've been watching a different league, but the league where Antwan Jamison posted his best number, he was on a PLAYOFF TEAM with Gilbert Arenas and Caron Bulter, and they were each posting 20+ per game.

Now that we got that cleared up, why don't you start by actually giving me an example of WHO he has made into a better player? Because I'm dying to know. The fact is, he didn't make players around him better, that's why he needed to team up with two other all-stars. If he could have made people better, he would have been able to win a ring in Cleveland.

Next time you call somebdoy stupid, at least bother putting together are arguement that employs reason, otherwise you look like the idiot.

OWNED!

Saying 'owned' for your own argument is like laughing at your own joke.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-02-2012, 03:33 PM
You guys don't seem to get the point when people say Lebron makes his teammates better. He makes the whole team better and not just 1 individual. I do think Lebron makes this teammates play better but as a team, not an individual. You can throw up stats all you like but if you watch basketball, you can definitely see it. This is something no stats can give an answer to.

Every good/great player make the teams they are on better. What does that prove? Talent improves the teams capacity to win. The Pacers added David West to the team and got much better because he was more talented than the player he replaced. That proves nothing.

But a great player should not have a negative affect on pretty much every teammate he has ever had on his team. If that is the case, you get results that are not going to be up to par. A teams total efficiency is what dictates how successfully they will ultimately be. If everyone efficiency goes down except for one player, that cant be seen as a good thing.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-02-2012, 03:38 PM
Seems Raps left the thread. I hope he went to go find some evidence to back his claims... Can anyone step up an find someone that has truly excelled with Lebron at the wheel? Dont worry, I'll wait.

Still waiting........

dee279
06-02-2012, 03:42 PM
Mo Williams excelled. Sasha Pavlovic actually played a big roll on that cleveland team and he is horrible to say the least. Varajao wouldnt be a starting Center if Lebron wasnt feeding him easy baskets. I mean the guys that was starting on that Cleveland team are either bench players or not on an NBA team.

dee279
06-02-2012, 03:48 PM
The teammates that Lebron played with in Cleveland were average at best NbA players. Lebron looks to pass to give open shots giving guys who cant put the ball on the floor to save their life a chance to score and get open shots. Lebron made mediocre players look like formidable NBA players. Of course he disnt make any into star players but he didnt have no one with the potential to be a star.

sunsfan88
06-02-2012, 03:50 PM
LeBron deserves a ring over guys like Kobe. I'm not saying Kobe isn't a great player but Kobe's entire career he's been chucking up shots, whining about everything, playing defense SOMETIMES and almost never passing the ball or deferring when he should.

LeBron is the complete opposite.

The only thing Kobe has on LeBron is being more clutch.

Oh and Kobe is also un-coachable; Phil Jackson threatened to leave for years, and did walk out at one point, due to Kobe's extreme selfishness. LeBron seems more eager to learn the game and get his team mates more involved -- it's not his fault Cleveland couldn't build a competent team around him -- otherwise he would easily have at least 1 ring right now. Both are great players, but I think LeBron plays with more of a passion because he has something to prove, while Kobe just plays to put up stats now.

dee279
06-02-2012, 03:59 PM
I am sorry, I just dont see how that is accurate. I wish he was here to elaborate why he thinks that is the case. Is it because they got to the finals? Well, AI took a far less talented team to the finals, and beat one of the best teams ever in the playoffs. Does AI make his teammates better than Lebron? All I'm saying is someone had to come out of the east those years. We seen how much better Lebron made his teammates once they faced a real team in the finals. Everyone knew the East was not comparable to the west. So eastern conference champs are = to being the tallest midget.




That may prove to be true. And I could see Lebron going ape $h1t and dominating everyone all the way to a championship. But it has not happened yet so we cant say that is true for sure. So far, history shows us that if he spent a little more time allowing his teammates to carry a bigger load, they maybe ready to come up big when his talent alone was not enough to get his teams over the hump.

Your problem is that you are really overestimating the talent he had on his team. He had no one on that team that was a go to guy. He had players who played with energy and knew their role. In games when he saw that a player was hitting, he tended to look for that player more often but they were no one on that team that could do that on a consistant basis.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-02-2012, 04:22 PM
Mo Williams excelled. Sasha Pavlovic actually played a big roll on that Cleveland team and he is horrible to say the least. Varajao wouldn't be a starting Center if Lebron wasn't feeding him easy baskets. I mean the guys that was starting on that Cleveland team are either bench players or not on an NBA team.

Varajao actually had played better these past two seasons without Lebron. His PER, TRB%, AST%, STEAL%, DRTG, have all improved these past two years. As well as his per 36 min numbers of points, rebounds and assist.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/v/varejan01.html

Pavlocic has sucked his entire career. Whether is was with Bron or not. I wont fault Lebron for that because he's not a magician. But he was well below average in Cleveland. The only you know his name is because he was on a team that was on national tv more than anyone at the time. Just because you heard of a player, does not mean he played a big part of anything. He averaged 18 minutes a game.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pavloal01.html

Mo Williams had his best year in Milwaukee the year before he went to Cleveland. He only made the all star team as an alternate because people seen him on T.V. more often then they seen the champion Laker's that season. 25 national tv games to the Laker's 24. But Mo had a just as good a PER, a higher TRB%, higher assist %, higher steal%, and better per 36 minute numbers without Lebron. Lebron did help in Mo's overall TS% percentage, but thats it. Every other aspect of Mo's game went down.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html

But I will take any other suggestions. :)

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-02-2012, 04:25 PM
The teammates that Lebron played with in Cleveland were average at best NbA players. Lebron looks to pass to give open shots giving guys who cant put the ball on the floor to save their life a chance to score and get open shots. Lebron made mediocre players look like formidable NBA players. Of course he disnt make any into star players but he didnt have no one with the potential to be a star.

What happened to Wade and Bosh? Especially Bosh? I am not saying he has to turn people into stars. I am asking why their normal production/efficiency falls once he becomes their teammate.

lilchuckdoubles
06-02-2012, 04:27 PM
I still don't really like lebron. not because he's super cocky or a big time floper but because to me he's just not a champion. no doubt he's one of the best basketball players of all time, but he's just not willing to sacrafise things the way the greatest champions of all time like were, Ali or Jordan. With all of lebrons physical talents he just doesn't have the mind set to be a great champion. I wish I didn't feel that way but i do.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-02-2012, 04:29 PM
Your problem is that you are really overestimating the talent he had on his team. He had no one on that team that was a go to guy. He had players who played with energy and knew their role. In games when he saw that a player was hitting, he tended to look for that player more often but they were no one on that team that could do that on a consistant basis.

I never said he should win a ring with those teams. I am just pointing out that he does not make his teammates better. They decline when he is their star. I never said he should have won with those teams because they did not have a lot of talent. But you would think that he would not have a negative impact on their production with everyone thinking that he makes his teammates better.

StinkEye
06-02-2012, 04:31 PM
I freely admit that James is the best individual player in the league, and I think most people will agree. I just don't like him. And he doesn't make players around him better. A good example of this is Antwan Jamison. Jamison was an All-star player, and when the Cavs aquired him in a trade he actually looked like a medicore players.

The thing that separates Bird and Magic and Duncan from players like Jordan and James, is that they made players around them better, where Jordan and James, while arguably the best players at their respective positions, didn't really make the players around them better. That's just my view, but I believe there is some intangible that Bird and Magic and Dunca, and for that matter Steve Nash had, that James simply does not have.

But yeah. He is the best individual player.

I don't think you put much thought into this post. Jamison is an awful example. He's not even that good of a player in the first place, he joined the Cavs late in the season, and he wasn't even a good fit (he's a tweener). James made sidekicks out of Mo' Williams, Booby Gibson, Big Z, Drew Gooden, etc... can you say Magic, Kobe, and MJ had that kinda help? LeBron had done more with less than most greats could ever dream of doing.

... I'll add that I have loved LeBron's game since watching him in his first few playoff series. He's such an unselfish player with such a huge impact on both ends. I don't necessarily agree with half of the dooshy things he sometimes says or does, but I don't think you can really do that with anybody. It's hard to love Blake Griffin or Chris Paul for everything they do - and they are freakin' darlings. When asked, I never hesitate to say that LeBron is the best in the game, and I've been saying it for years.

dalton749
06-02-2012, 05:14 PM
LeBron had done more with less than most greats could ever dream of doing.


this x10.
makes me so angry when people compare him to kobe how he sucks because he doesnt have rings, yet they dont consider that he was a cav, took a garbage team and made it relevant without any decent help.
he wasnt lucky enough to be drafted onto a contending team and has always had much more talent around him then lebron.
sure lebron had to go somewhere else to find talent but its hardly his fault that he wasnt brought into the biggest market in the game

dee279
06-02-2012, 05:18 PM
Varajao actually had played better these past two seasons without Lebron. His PER, TRB%, AST%, STEAL%, DRTG, have all improved these past two years. As well as his per 36 min numbers of points, rebounds and assist. Yes but would he be doing that well with the added exposure and confidence Lebron helped him receieve? Part of making him a better player.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/v/varejan01.html

Pavlocic has sucked his entire career. Whether is was with Bron or not. I wont fault Lebron for that because he's not a magician. But he was well below average in Cleveland. The only you know his name is because he was on a team that was on national tv more than anyone at the time. Just because you heard of a player, does not mean he played a big part of anything. He averaged 18 minutes a game. Thats way more then he should have had.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pavloal01.html

Mo Williams had his best year in Milwaukee the year before he went to Cleveland. He only made the all star team as an alternate because people seen him on T.V. more often then they seen the champion Laker's that season. 25 national tv games to the Laker's 24. But Mo had a just as good a PER, a higher TRB%, higher assist %, higher steal%, and better per 36 minute numbers without Lebron. Lebron did help in Mo's overall TS% percentage, but thats it. Every other aspect of Mo's game went down. of course his other stats were going to go down. Lebron is the scorer of that team and the dominant ballhandler. What you thought Mo was going to go over to Cleveland and take over? No. But he gave Mo Williams way better shots and openings he couldnt get in Milwalkee where he had to create for himself alot more.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html

But I will take any other suggestions. :)

See the bolded area of your quote.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-02-2012, 05:20 PM
LeBron deserves a ring over guys like Kobe. I'm not saying Kobe isn't a great player but Kobe's entire career he's been chucking up shots, whining about everything, playing defense SOMETIMES and almost never passing the ball or deferring when he should.

LeBron is the complete opposite.

The only thing Kobe has on LeBron is being more clutch.

Oh and Kobe is also un-coachable; Phil Jackson threatened to leave for years, and did walk out at one point, due to Kobe's extreme selfishness. LeBron seems more eager to learn the game and get his team mates more involved -- it's not his fault Cleveland couldn't build a competent team around him -- otherwise he would easily have at least 1 ring right now. Both are great players, but I think LeBron plays with more of a passion because he has something to prove, while Kobe just plays to put up stats now.

But Kobe has shown he can make his teammates better. That may be why his teams win rings even though as you say he is a "selfish ball hog, stat padder, whiner, chucker, and uncoachable".

Shaq was great before he played with Kobe, but as soon as Kobe played big minutes, Shaq had the best 4 years of his career
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealsh01.html

Pau Gasol never played better since he came to the Lakers
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gasolpa01.html

Derek Fisher had the best year of his career in 07/08 when he came back to the Lakers after playing with GS and Utah. That was at age 33.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/fishede01.html

Lamar Odom had his best years along Kobe and the best year of his career at age 31 last year. And down right fell off the map after he was not playing with Kobe. I wonder why he didnt jump at the chance to leave with Kobe being such a bad teammate. :rolleyes:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/odomla01.html

Sasha Vujacic best year in 07/08 with Kobe. Made Sasha look like he deserved 6 million dollars a year. Where is he now?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/v/vujacsa01.html

Smush Parkers only 2 years worth mentioning were with the Lakers. Look at every other year of his career. Pathetic. But next to that ball hog, he actually stepped his game up.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/parkesm01.html

Kwame Brown, actually played worse with Kobe.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/brownkw01.html

Bynum has only played with Kobe but he is developing drastically even though Kobe sucks at getting him the ball ;)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bynuman01.html

Shannon Browns best years of his career were with the Lakers
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/brownsh01.html

Jordan Farmar has played better with the Nets
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/farmajo01.html

Trevor Ariza wishes he could play next to that selfish player again.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/arizatr01.html

Matt Barnes had the best year of his career this last year
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/barnema02.html

Maybe Lebron should be more of a dick and hold people accountable :confused:
He may get more out of them.

dee279
06-02-2012, 05:24 PM
I never said he should win a ring with those teams. I am just pointing out that he does not make his teammates better. They decline when he is their star. I never said he should have won with those teams because they did not have a lot of talent. But you would think that he would not have a negative impact on their production with everyone thinking that he makes his teammates better.

Soust because they shoot less, they are playing worse. How about you look at the shooting percentages when Lebron was on the team and when he wasnt. I bet they shot better with him for sure. I could agree with what you are saying if you could point out all these players that played so horrible and declined soooo much with Lebron.

KB-Pau-DH2012
06-02-2012, 05:30 PM
LeBron deserves a ring over guys like Kobe. I'm not saying Kobe isn't a great player but Kobe's entire career he's been chucking up shots, whining about everything, playing defense SOMETIMES and almost never passing the ball or deferring when he should.

LeBron is the complete opposite.

The only thing Kobe has on LeBron is being more clutch.

Oh and Kobe is also un-coachable; Phil Jackson threatened to leave for years, and did walk out at one point, due to Kobe's extreme selfishness. LeBron seems more eager to learn the game and get his team mates more involved -- it's not his fault Cleveland couldn't build a competent team around him -- otherwise he would easily have at least 1 ring right now. Both are great players, but I think LeBron plays with more of a passion because he has something to prove, while Kobe just plays to put up stats now.

Still sore that Nash could never win a title and still sore about the 2010 WCF eh? :)

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-02-2012, 05:31 PM
I don't think you put much thought into this post. Jamison is an awful example. He's not even that good of a player in the first place, he joined the Cavs late in the season, and he wasn't even a good fit (he's a tweener). James made sidekicks out of Mo' Williams, Booby Gibson, Big Z, Drew Gooden, etc... can you say Magic, Kobe, and MJ had that kinda help? LeBron had done more with less than most greats could ever dream of doing.

... I'll add that I have loved LeBron's game since watching him in his first few playoff series. He's such an unselfish player with such a huge impact on both ends. I don't necessarily agree with half of the dooshy things he sometimes says or does, but I don't think you can really do that with anybody. It's hard to love Blake Griffin or Chris Paul for everything they do - and they are freakin' darlings. When asked, I never hesitate to say that LeBron is the best in the game, and I've been saying it for years.


this x10.
makes me so angry when people compare him to kobe how he sucks because he doesnt have rings, yet they dont consider that he was a cav, took a garbage team and made it relevant without any decent help.
he wasnt lucky enough to be drafted onto a contending team and has always had much more talent around him then lebron.
sure lebron had to go somewhere else to find talent but its hardly his fault that he wasnt brought into the biggest market in the game


I am sorry, I just dont see how that is accurate. I wish he was here to elaborate why he thinks that is the case. Is it because they got to the finals? Well, AI took a far less talented team to the finals, and beat one of the best teams ever in the playoffs. Does AI make his teammates better than Lebron? All I'm saying is someone had to come out of the east those years. We seen how much better Lebron made his teammates once they faced a real team in the finals. Everyone knew the East was not comparable to the west. So eastern conference champs are = to being the tallest midget.




That may prove to be true. And I could see Lebron going ape $h1t and dominating everyone all the way to a championship. But it has not happened yet so we cant say that is true for sure. So far, history shows us that if he spent a little more time allowing his teammates to carry a bigger load, they maybe ready to come up big when his talent alone was not enough to get his teams over the hump.


Every good/great player make the teams they are on better. What does that prove? Talent improves the teams capacity to win. The Pacers added David West to the team and got much better because he was more talented than the player he replaced. That proves nothing.

But a great player should not have a negative affect on pretty much every teammate he has ever had on his team. If that is the case, you get results that are not going to be up to par. A teams total efficiency is what dictates how successfully they will ultimately be. If everyone efficiency goes down except for one player, that cant be seen as a good thing.


What happened to Wade and Bosh? Especially Bosh? I am not saying he has to turn people into stars. I am asking why their normal production/efficiency falls once he becomes their teammate.


I never said he should win a ring with those teams. I am just pointing out that he does not make his teammates better. They decline when he is their star. I never said he should have won with those teams because they did not have a lot of talent. But you would think that he would not have a negative impact on their production with everyone thinking that he makes his teammates better.

Already covered those excuses guys. But I like the enthusiasm. Keep trying though, something will come up.

JordansBulls
06-02-2012, 05:34 PM
I freely admit that James is the best individual player in the league, and I think most people will agree. I just don't like him. And he doesn't make players around him better. A good example of this is Antwan Jamison. Jamison was an All-star player, and when the Cavs aquired him in a trade he actually looked like a medicore players.

The thing that separates Bird and Magic and Duncan from players like Jordan and James, is that they made players around them better, where Jordan and James, while arguably the best players at their respective positions, didn't really make the players around them better. That's just my view, but I believe there is some intangible that Bird and Magic and Dunca, and for that matter Steve Nash had, that James simply does not have.

But yeah. He is the best individual player.

This is such a terrible post. Lebron and MJ went straight to franchises that were losing organization with no superstars on the team. Bird went to the Celtics who had won 2 titles in the previous 6-7 years and won 13 titles already before he arrived. Magic went to straight to a franchise that had prime Kareem who was the league mvp in Magic's rookie season and that had won 6 titles and been to 15 finals already.
Magic was already quoted in saying he would not have gone to Chicago had the Bulls got the #1 pick and that he would have gone back to school. And Bird played with a guy who made the allstar team every year he played and these guys were allstars before Bird came to the team.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-02-2012, 05:36 PM
dee279;22386269]Soust because they shoot less, they are playing worse. How about you look at the shooting percentages when Lebron was on the team and when he wasnt. I bet they shot better with him for sure.

Where did I say just because they shot less they are worse? Almost every aspect of thier game is worse. From rebounding, assist%, tov%, and PER. Every aspect of their game suffers next to him except for shooting percentage. To bad that is such a small part of the game.


I could agree with what you are saying if you could point out all these players that played so horrible and declined soooo much with Lebron.

I already did in a post earlier, but here you go...

Bron is the best player in the league, but you are completely wrong. Brons teammates dont just shoot a lower fg%. Their entire game seems to fall off. Especially Bosh and Wade. But I'm not just referring to Bosh and Wade's numbers/efficiency. I am talking about just about all players that are on Brons teams. I dont have time to delve into why I think these guys dont produce once they are teamed up with him, but I'll post some of their numbers. These are mainly players that played without Lebron, and then with him that had big roles on his Cleveland and Miami teams. There is a very steady trend. Most of them played better before or after they were relegated to standing in the corner hoping a pass would come their way.

This is what they have done along side of Lebron James

Chalmers, had a better rookie season then he did these past two years.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...chalmma01.html

Haslem, worst two years of career
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...hasleud01.html

Wade, two of his worse years in the league
http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../wadedw01.html

Bosh has had his two worst years since his first two seasons.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../boshch01.html

Joel Anthony last year had his worst year of his career, this year had one of his better ones.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...anthojo01.html

James Jones has had two of his better years with James
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...jonesja02.html

Shane Battier had his worst season ever next to Lebron but you cant really fault him. He has been trending down for the past couple of years.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...battish01.html

Mike Miller has had his two worst years of his career as well. Might have been the injury, maybe does not fit Lebron's skill sets. But that may be Lebrons problem. You have to be so specific in the type of players you put around him, or else they dont succeed. You dont want too good of a point guard because Lebron likes to have the ball. You dont want a great slasher/ drive and kick man because thats what Lebron does, and he is not one to spread the floor for the drive and kick type player. You dont want a big man who lives in the post asking to be fed the ball because it clogs up the paint for Lebrons drives and you dont get assist when you dump the ball into the post etc etc etc.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...millemi01.html

Mo Williams had his best season at 25, right before he went to Cleveland. Then declined every year after.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...willima01.html

Delonte West had average years in Cleveland
http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../westde01.html

Wally had his two worst season next to Lebron. Granted, he was 30 and 31.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...szczewa02.html

Larry Hughes had 6 productive years before he went to Cleveland, then fell off the map.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...hughela01.html

Damon Jones had his best year in Miami at age 28, but once he goes to Cleveland, he falls off the map at age 29
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...jonesda01.html

Drew Gooden has a funny career arc. He had good seasons until his first season in Cleveland when he had his best season at age 23. The next three years he falls off the map while playing with Lebron. As soon as he is traded to the Bulls, he starts producing again and has been ever since. He had his three worst years of his career next to Lebron at ages 24, 25, and 26. Typically when a player starts to maximize his efficiency.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...goodedr01.html


What would you say causes these players career arcs look off. They seem to rise until they play along side Bron, then they seem to decline for no reason, but once he leaves their production efficiency go back up. A players arc is not supposed to look like rolling hills. And you would not think that their production/efficiency is not at the bottom of the hill when they play along such a great player.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-02-2012, 05:43 PM
I feel like someone gave me ex-lax that gave me diarrhea cause I $h1t all over this thread. I'm going to take my talents to another forum. Peace...

BostonMafia
06-02-2012, 05:46 PM
What u guys r failing to see is that its not about making ur teamates stats better its about winning and the heat have been WINNING yes I know they lost the finals last year but we got there and this year we could easily do the same and win it. Not to mention the Cavs have sucked balls since he left.

bucketss
06-02-2012, 05:47 PM
I feel like someone gave me ex-lax that gave me diarrhea cause I $h1t all over this thread. I'm going to take my talents to another forum. Peace...

tuut tuut don't hurt yourself now

ManRam
06-02-2012, 06:07 PM
I'm not gonna lie here, i hated this guy with all my heart. I'm a huge Kobe Bryant fan. Always hated his antics, taking photos, dancing on the floor. Tought he is a stats whore, not clutch, so on and on.

But as of late, i growed a huge respect for this guy's game. Come on, we are talking about the best player in the game here. I hated when he said not 1 not 2... now that i think about it, he went to a new ball club and tried to pump his fans, how is that any different from pat riley guarentiing back to back for lakers when celebrating a c'ship or Kobe saying we're going to play until June in his MVP speech. What if he teamed up with wade? while i respect Kobe or Jordan never trying to do something like that, but at the same time everybody doesn't have to think the same, a young man, living best years of his life, can do whatever he wants to do. If it is playing with one of his best friends and one of the best players in the world, so be it.

Big reason of why i hated this guy was because people tend to give him freepass to everything before he deserves, such as showing some advanced stats and ignoring all of his failures, like his play last years finals or that game 5 against boston in 2010. But we can find those type of moments in any players carreer. I know Kobe was a no show when Boston erased that 24 points deficit in game 4 of 2008 finals, i never hold that against Kobe. And i'm not gonna hold these against LBJ just to hate him. Especially if this big 3 can stay healthy, it would take 4-5 rings for me to put him in the same breath as Magic and Jordan, but if he can't i won't hate him or enjoy it.

I really deeply rooted against this guy, wanted him to never win a championship, now that i think about it, i want him to win at least once before he hangs it. He seems to work real hard and all that hard work shouldn't go down the drain without any glory.Now only thing i don't like about him is his flopping, he needs to cut that off. He is way too strong and way too good to do things like that. I hope he doesn't do it again.

One thing is for sure, Kobe Bryant is my all time favourite and it's not gonna change. His fire, drive, dedication, stubbornness, those are things i love about him. But at the same time i respect the hell out of LeBron James' game and really enjoy to watch him. He is the only player i get up 3 am in the morning(that's when nba games in my country) to watch after Kobe and the Lakers eliminated, and i know as of now he is the best player in the game.

The free pass thing is shot out the room...no one gives him a free pass for anything any more...if they ever did.

Welcome to the light side. He's unlike anything I've ever seen. I too hated him his first 2 season in the league, because of all the hype. But then I'd just watch him, and it was too fun.

He's incredibly polarizing, and I get why people hate him like they do. It's their loss. They're spending all their efforts hating on a player who plays the game unlike anyone has ever, and perhaps unlike anyone will ever. It seems like people dedicate their lives to hating him...and obsess over hating him. It's silly to me. I get that it's sports and half the fun is rooting against guys, but those guys are missing out on enjoying something great. I learned my lesson with Kobe...and while I still don't like the Lakers, I don't get overwhelmed with the emotions. I can enjoy him, and as a basketball fan, I'm happy about that! He too is unlike most anything else I've ever seen...especially when he was in his absolute prime.

He's not the best ever, far from it...but he's amazingly unique and a freak of nature. It's more fun to just enjoy him. It's basketball...I don't care if he's cocky, arrogant or that he promised his own fans many championships. I don't. I just care about basketball...and he does basketball so well.

You don't have to hate LeBron because you like Kobe...or vise versa. It's the weirdest player rivalry ever. I get why it exists, but they've never played a meaningful game in their careers.

I'm rooting for the Heat, because I'm rooting for LeBron. I hate the Heat, but all the **** LeBron gets really has pushed me from liking him to loving him.

YashBoone
06-02-2012, 06:10 PM
I'm not gonna lie here, i hated this guy with all my heart. I'm a huge Kobe Bryant fan. Always hated his antics, taking photos, dancing on the floor. Tought he is a stats whore, not clutch, so on and on.

But as of late, i growed a huge respect for this guy's game. Come on, we are talking about the best player in the game here. I hated when he said not 1 not 2... now that i think about it, he went to a new ball club and tried to pump his fans, how is that any different from pat riley guarentiing back to back for lakers when celebrating a c'ship or Kobe saying we're going to play until June in his MVP speech. What if he teamed up with wade? while i respect Kobe or Jordan never trying to do something like that, but at the same time everybody doesn't have to think the same, a young man, living best years of his life, can do whatever he wants to do. If it is playing with one of his best friends and one of the best players in the world, so be it.

Big reason of why i hated this guy was because people tend to give him freepass to everything before he deserves, such as showing some advanced stats and ignoring all of his failures, like his play last years finals or that game 5 against boston in 2010. But we can find those type of moments in any players carreer. I know Kobe was a no show when Boston erased that 24 points deficit in game 4 of 2008 finals, i never hold that against Kobe. And i'm not gonna hold these against LBJ just to hate him. Especially if this big 3 can stay healthy, it would take 4-5 rings for me to put him in the same breath as Magic and Jordan, but if he can't i won't hate him or enjoy it.

I really deeply rooted against this guy, wanted him to never win a championship, now that i think about it, i want him to win at least once before he hangs it. He seems to work real hard and all that hard work shouldn't go down the drain without any glory.Now only thing i don't like about him is his flopping, he needs to cut that off. He is way too strong and way too good to do things like that. I hope he doesn't do it again.

One thing is for sure, Kobe Bryant is my all time favourite and it's not gonna change. His fire, drive, dedication, stubbornness, those are things i love about him. But at the same time i respect the hell out of LeBron James' game and really enjoy to watch him. He is the only player i get up 3 am in the morning(that's when nba games in my country) to watch after Kobe and the Lakers eliminated, and i know as of now he is the best player in the game.

Did they all pack an arena for a signing announcement, dress in their bball gear, and enter as if they were cmb...... It's a little different.

amos1er
06-02-2012, 06:12 PM
I don't hate James, I just hate all the praise he gets even though he hasn't earned it. I will list off the things I like about him and the things I don't like.

Good:

- Lebron is a beast and is one of the best players of all time statistically.

- Statistically he is the best in the NBA...anybody who can't admit that is blind.

- He can do it all...pass, rebound, shoot, run the break better than anyone, and has become one of the best defenders in the league.

- He seems to be a overall nice guy, maybe not the most charismatic, but certainly is not an dick by any means. May be a bit cocky, but thats not a bad thing in my book.

- The guy has the stamina of a bull. He is just a beast...he seems to never get tired and is always doing more on the court than anyone on either team. Endurance wise he is one of the greatest.


Bad:

- People called him "The King" even though he hadn't proven himself yet. Entering the league I had never in the history of spots seen a player that has been more overhyped.

- People compare him to the all-time greats even though he hasn't warranted it yet. Win a few rings first.

- Has not proven himself in the clutch. While he has had a few moments, he has had waaay more less impressive moments that have surely cost him either a playoff series or a championship ring. He surely freezes up in the clutch and has not gotten the job done even though his fans act like he has conquered the world.

- The media kisses his *** not stop and act like he is the GOAT.

- He gets more calls from the officials than any other player I have ever witnessed. Ya, we are all witnesses...to the refs blowing the whistle evertime he is breathed on by an opposing player. Truth is that he is too good to get that kind of treatment from the refs, he really doesn't need it...so I don't understand why he is such a flopper and relies on them so much. Maybe he has just grown so accustomed to it that it just became part of his game. I'm sure that if the refs weren't there for him so much he would have adapted his game and he might have been better for it.

- While he is the best all around player, he surely is a stat hog and his teammates suffer for it. Any player that teams up with James sees a significant reduction in their stats, whether its rebounding, assists, ppg..etc. This is well documented. His impressive stat lines do come at the expense of his teammates. Team up with James, and you will not be the fantasy player you once were. Any fantasy team player should know that any teammate of Lebron's is not a good pick up. If Lebron just let his teammates do what they were good at, like let the big men rebound or let the guards make plays, or let the scorers score...he would have easily won a ring by now. The only reason he hasn't won a ring is because he want to win a ring his way and only his way, which is by getting the near triple double stat line at the expense of his teammates stat lines.

- Other than MVP's or advanced stats, what does he really have? He needs to get the job done and come through against a worthy opponent. He plays in the east against weak teams and pads his wins, and usually pads his stats against weak teams. Likewise, when he plays against great teams, his stats decrease significantly (see his finals appearances against the Mavs and Spurs) and he is too tentative in the big moments.

KB-Pau-DH2012
06-02-2012, 06:16 PM
What I respect about LeBron this yr is that he's been doing everything very quietly this yr and has not been the vag of the team (that honor belongs to Dwyane Wade).

He went about winning MVP quietly, and he's been balling in these playoffs without making any ignorant comments about how great he is (like he used to do in the past).

He's growing up, it's a wonderful site to see.

RLundi
06-02-2012, 06:18 PM
I think that is the reason as well. But it does not change the fact that their is a very big misconception that he makes his teammates better. History, and the stats tell a completely different story. Maybe after 8 years in the league he would think to change his game so that his teammates have a bigger role in the offense, as opposed to standing around waiting to see if a pass comes their way where they are asked to catch and shoot to pad Lebrons assist numbers. Or set screens for Lebron so he could get to the rim or kick out of the aforementioned pass.

His skill set is so great, his coaches overuse him to be able to maximize his numbers and run the offense. Problem with that is you cant replicate a player of his ability off the bench. So when he takes a breather, the team is asked to run an offense that is not ran or practiced for the majority of the season.

That is why I never liked the excuses that were given to Lebron for his teams failing. Everyone always blamed his teammates, and said they did not produce enough. But maybe, just maybe, Lebron and the coaching staff are to blame for his teammates inability to step up.

It isn't a misconception. Some of LeBron's teammates that have improved are directly tied to him just being on the team. LeBron has always been a willing passer and is among the best passing forwards in NBA history. He in fact certainly does make his players around him better. It does not necessarily equate to scoring averages going up, even though LeBron has done that for many players in many cases. A better determination is efficiency and effective field goal percentage. Because he is such a good passer and because the defense gives him such a huge amount of attention, he's put his teammates in positions to get wide-open shots, thus raising their eFG% and allowing them to be more efficient. Here is a sample of players that have played a sufficient amount of time with LeBron, looking at their before, during and after numbers. And just for fun, I also included some Heat players, though the sample size seems too small and thus might be a little skewed.

Cleveland Cavaliers

Mo Williams
5 seasons before LeBron: 14.4 PER, .470 eFG
2 seasons with LeBron: 16.7 PER, .542 eFG
2 seasons after LeBron 14.5 PER, .478 eFG

Anderson Varejao
6 seasons with LeBron: 14.8 PER, .514 eFG
2 seasons after LeBron: 17.1 PER, .521 eFG
*played in 56 out of a possible 148 games

Zydrunas Ilgauskus
5 seasons before LeBron: 18.0 PER, .476 eFG
8 seasons with LeBron 18.3 PER, .479 eFG

Drew Gooden
4 seasons before LeBron: 15.6 PER, .476 eFG
4 seasons with LeBron: 16.6 PER, .482 eFG
4 seasons after LeBron: 17.0 PER, .487 eFG

Daniel Gibson
4 seasons with LeBron: 10.6 PER, .547 eFG
2 seasons after LeBron: 11.2 PER, .476 eFG

Sasha Pavlovic
1 season before LeBron: 8.7 PER, .422 eFG
5 seasons with LeBron: 8.8 PER, .482 eFG
3 seasons after LeBron: 6.0 PER, .456 eFG

Delonte West
4 seasons before LeBron: 13.4 PER, .497 eFG
3 seasons with LeBron: 14.0 PER, .503 eFG
2 seasons after LeBron: 13.8 PER, .504 eFG

Miami Heat

Dwyane Wade
7 seasons before LeBron: 25.3 PER, .494 eFG
2 seasons with LeBron: 26.0 PER, .515 eFG

Chris Bosh
7 seasons before LeBron: 21.3 PER, .494 eFG
2 seasons with LeBron: 19.2 PER, .497 eFG

Mario Chalmers
2 seasons before LeBron: 12 PER, .495 eFG
2 seasons with LeBron: 11.6 PER, .528 eFG

Joel Anthony
3 seasons before LeBron: 9.4 PER, .476 eFG
2 seasons with LeBron: 8.8 PER, .588 eFG

I wanted this to be as unbiased as possible, so I also included players that dropped in PER and/or eFG. But in almost all cases, playing with LeBron has increased players' effective field goal percentage, most dramatically with Mo Williams, Daniel Gibson, Sasha Pavlovic and Mario Chalmers. Joel Anthony's percentage increased by more than an entire percentage point. Would these players get the open shots they did had the defense not been as concerned with LeBron? I highly doubt it. Most players' PER remained pretty constant, though it's interesting that Mo Williams' and Pavlovic's increased dramatically, and even Wade's increased from his average.

Again, this isn't by all means intended to be an absolute way of determining anything, as there are much more variables to consider. But this small snippet at least demonstrates that LeBron has in fact made some of his teammates much better by, at the very least, allowing them to get more open looks at the basket and connect on them with more regularity.

dee279
06-02-2012, 06:22 PM
Where did I say just because they shot less they are worse? Almost every aspect of thier game is worse. From rebounding, assist%, tov%, and PER. Every aspect of their game suffers next to him except for shooting percentage. To bad that is such a small part of the game.



I already did in a post earlier, but here you go...

Bron is the best player in the league, but you are completely wrong. Brons teammates dont just shoot a lower fg%. Their entire game seems to fall off. Especially Bosh and Wade. But I'm not just referring to Bosh and Wade's numbers/efficiency. I am talking about just about all players that are on Brons teams. I dont have time to delve into why I think these guys dont produce once they are teamed up with him, but I'll post some of their numbers. These are mainly players that played without Lebron, and then with him that had big roles on his Cleveland and Miami teams. There is a very steady trend. Most of them played better before or after they were relegated to standing in the corner hoping a pass would come their way.

This is what they have done along side of Lebron James

Chalmers, had a better rookie season then he did these past two years.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...chalmma01.html

Haslem, worst two years of career
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...hasleud01.html

Wade, two of his worse years in the league
http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../wadedw01.html

Bosh has had his two worst years since his first two seasons.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../boshch01.html

Joel Anthony last year had his worst year of his career, this year had one of his better ones.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...anthojo01.html

James Jones has had two of his better years with James
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...jonesja02.html

Shane Battier had his worst season ever next to Lebron but you cant really fault him. He has been trending down for the past couple of years.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...battish01.html

Mike Miller has had his two worst years of his career as well. Might have been the injury, maybe does not fit Lebron's skill sets. But that may be Lebrons problem. You have to be so specific in the type of players you put around him, or else they dont succeed. You dont want too good of a point guard because Lebron likes to have the ball. You dont want a great slasher/ drive and kick man because thats what Lebron does, and he is not one to spread the floor for the drive and kick type player. You dont want a big man who lives in the post asking to be fed the ball because it clogs up the paint for Lebrons drives and you dont get assist when you dump the ball into the post etc etc etc.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...millemi01.html

Mo Williams had his best season at 25, right before he went to Cleveland. Then declined every year after.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...willima01.html

Delonte West had average years in Cleveland
http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../westde01.html

Wally had his two worst season next to Lebron. Granted, he was 30 and 31.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...szczewa02.html

Larry Hughes had 6 productive years before he went to Cleveland, then fell off the map.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...hughela01.html

Damon Jones had his best year in Miami at age 28, but once he goes to Cleveland, he falls off the map at age 29
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...jonesda01.html

Drew Gooden has a funny career arc. He had good seasons until his first season in Cleveland when he had his best season at age 23. The next three years he falls off the map while playing with Lebron. As soon as he is traded to the Bulls, he starts producing again and has been ever since. He had his three worst years of his career next to Lebron at ages 24, 25, and 26. Typically when a player starts to maximize his efficiency.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...goodedr01.html


What would you say causes these players career arcs look off. They seem to rise until they play along side Bron, then they seem to decline for no reason, but once he leaves their production efficiency go back up. A players arc is not supposed to look like rolling hills. And you would not think that their production/efficiency is not at the bottom of the hill when they play along such a great player.

This was by far Chalmers best season in the league so idk where u get off saying his rookie season was his best. Haslem hasnt been the same since his injury, Mike Miller hasnt been the same since injury after injury, Chris Bosh is used way less then he was in Toronto and that should be obvious and Joel Anthony is garbage and been garbage. Cant blame that one on Lebron. Damon Jones couldnt do anything except shoot 3s. Wally messed it up pn his on where he just wasnt shooting efficiently, i agree with you on Drew Gooden, Lebron helped with Mo by giving him easier shots. And i do not know how rebound rate of other players can be blamed on Lebron so i dont get why u even bring that up. The fact that you think Kobe makes people better then Lebron does just gets me. I will say Lebron is not the leader Kobe has kind of grown to be but Lebron makes things alot easier for other players then Kobe does.

KeepMonta#8
06-02-2012, 06:23 PM
I don't hate James, I just hate all the praise he gets even though he hasn't earned it. I will list off the things I like about him and the things I don't like.

Good:

- Lebron is a beast and is one of the best players of all time statistically.

- Statistically he is the best in the NBA...anybody who can't admit that is blind.

- He can do it all...pass, rebound, shoot, run the break better than anyone, and has become one of the best defenders in the league.

- He seems to be a overall nice guy, maybe not the most charismatic, but certainly is not an dick by any means. May be a bit cocky, but thats not a bad thing in my book.

- The guy has the stamina of a bull. He is just a beast...he seems to never get tired and is always doing more on the court than anyone on either team. Endurance wise he is one of the greatest.


Bad:

- People called him "The King" even though he hadn't proven himself yet. Entering the league I had never in the history of spots seen a player that has been more overhyped.

- People compare him to the all-time greats even though he hasn't warranted it yet. Win a few rings first.

- Has not proven himself in the clutch. While he has had a few moments, he has had waaay more less impressive moments that have surely cost him either a playoff series or a championship ring. He surely freezes up in the clutch and has not gotten the job done even though his fans act like he has conquered the world.

- The media kisses his *** not stop and act like he is the GOAT.

- He gets more calls from the officials than any other player I have ever witnessed. Ya, we are all witnesses...to the refs blowing the whistle evertime he is breathed on by an opposing player. Truth is that he is too good to get that kind of treatment from the refs, he really doesn't need it...so I don't understand why he is such a flopper and relies on them so much. Maybe he has just grown so accustomed to it that it just became part of his game. I'm sure that if the refs weren't there for him so much he would have adapted his game and he might have been better for it.

- While he is the best all around player, he surely is a stat hog and his teammates suffer for it. Any player that teams up with James sees a significant reduction in their stats, whether its rebounding, assists, ppg..etc. This is well documented. His impressive stat lines do come at the expense of his teammates. Team up with James, and you will not be the fantasy player you once were. Any fantasy team player should know that any teammate of Lebron's is not a good pick up. If Lebron just let his teammates do what they were good at, like let the big men rebound or let the guards make plays, or let the scorers score...he would have easily won a ring by now. The only reason he hasn't won a ring is because he want to win a ring his way and only his way, which is by getting the near triple double stat line at the expense of his teammates stat lines.

- Other than MVP's or advanced stats, what does he really have? He needs to get the job done and come through against a worthy opponent. He plays in the east against weak teams and pads his wins, and usually pads his stats against weak teams. Likewise, when he plays against great teams, his stats decrease significantly (see his finals appearances against the Mavs and Spurs) and he is too tentative in the big moments.

is that rigged to?

ManRam
06-02-2012, 06:25 PM
I don't hate James, I just hate all the praise he gets even though he hasn't earned it. I will list off the things I like about him and the things I don't like.

Good:

- Lebron is a beast and is one of the best players of all time statistically.

- Statistically he is the best in the NBA...anybody who can't admit that is blind.

- He can do it all...pass, rebound, shoot, run the break better than anyone, and has become one of the best defenders in the league.

- He seems to be a overall nice guy, maybe not the most charismatic, but certainly is not an dick by any means. May be a bit cocky, but thats not a bad thing in my book.

- The guy has the stamina of a bull. He is just a beast...he seems to never get tired and is always doing more on the court than anyone on either team. Endurance wise he is one of the greatest.


Bad:

- People called him "The King" even though he hadn't proven himself yet. Entering the league I had never in the history of spots seen a player that has been more overhyped.

- People compare him to the all-time greats even though he hasn't warranted it yet. Win a few rings first.

- Has not proven himself in the clutch. While he has had a few moments, he has had waaay more less impressive moments that have come in some very important moments. He surely freezes up in the clutch and has not gotten the job done even though his fans act like he has conquered the world.

- The media kisses his *** not stop and act like he is the GOAT.

- He gets more calls from the officials than any other player I have ever witnessed. Ya, we are all witnesses...to the refs blowing the whistle evertime he is breathed on by an opposing player. Truth is that he is too good to get that kind of treatment from the refs, he really doesn't need it...so I don't understand why he is such a flopper and relies on them so much. Maybe he has just grown so accustomed to it that it just became part of his game. I'm sure that if the refs weren't there for him so much he would have adapted his game and he might have been better for it.

- While he is the best all around player, he surely is a stat hog and his teammates suffer for it. Any player that teams up with James sees a significant reduction in their stats, whether its rebounding, assists, ppg..etc. This is well documented. His impressive stat lines do come at the expense of his teammates. Team up with James, and you will not be the fantasy player you once were. Any fantasy team player should know that any teammate of Lebron's is not a good pick up. If Lebron just let his teammates do what they were good at, like let the big men rebound or let the guards make plays, or let the scorers score...he would have easily won a ring by now. The only reason he hasn't won a ring is because he want to win a ring his way and only his way.

- Other than MVP's or advanced stats, what does he really have? He needs to get the job done and come through against a worthy opponent. He plays in the east against weak teams and pads his wins, and usually pads his stats against weak teams. Likewise, when he plays against great teams, his stats decrease significantly (see his finals appearances against the Mavs and Spurs) and he is too tentative in the big moments.

A few things.

He hasn't "EARNED" anything? Three MVPs? The best player in the NBA (opinion) for at least 3-4 years. That's NOTHING? I know winning is all some people care about, but that takes a team. He gets knocked for not winning last year, for sure...and he'll get knocked for not winning it this year, for sure...but before that, expecting him to win with those teams is expecting the unprecedented. What he did with those Cavs teams I genuinely don't think any player in the NBA could have done more. Can I prove that? Nope. But I believe it. I've never seen a team win a ring with one great player like LeBron, and a cast like what he had. Ever.

The media kisses his ***? That's news to me. Sure, some people treat him like the best player in the world, but some legit hate his guts.

He probably gets calls, but singling him out is ridiculous to me. He earns a lot of them because of his aggression. He's very smart defensively, and doesn't commit bad fouls. He's constantly praised by other coaches for that.

A stat hog? You think he makes players worse? Sure, Wade's stats dipped, because he had a super star around him (his efficiency sky rocketed). A lot of the guys that have to come to his teams were passed their primes. What do you expect? Mo Williams had his best year ever, by far, playing with LeBron. Delonte wasn't negatively impacted by LeBron. Anderson had had a great season this year, but marginally better than his best LeBron years...if better at all. Chalmers had his best season ever this year. Joel Anthony too. I mean, who has he made "worse".

I've never heard any teammate ever criticize him. I don't see how he makes his teammates suffer for his selfishness. That's a weird accusation that I've just never heard. He's as unselfish as it gets.

Other than MVPs and advanced stats? Well, he's got non-advanced stats. He took some awful teams to the best records in the NBA and to the Finals, and multiple ECFs. Sure, he hasn't won a ring, but I'd argue that's ALL he doesn't have.


The more you talk about padding stats, the more I know you aren't being objective. I think that's a ridiculous assertions. He's a tremendous rebounder, a tremendous passer and a tremendous scorer. He does it all...and consequently that leads to huge stats. He's not doing that to hurt his team. If he's anything, it's not selfish. He's never been accused that, and wouldn't a stat-padder have to be that?



Saying Wade and Bosh aren't having their best season ever because they play with LeBron is hilarious. They knew they'd all have to take sacrifices, and their individual stats have dipped because they are no longer the best players on their team...something they always had been. And blaming him for old guys like Battier, Miller etc. not having their best seasons with him is hilarious. Look at everyone on his Cleveland teams. Look at Cleveland after he left. Explain how he didn't make them all they could be?

dalton749
06-02-2012, 06:27 PM
people hate on lebron for not being clutch comparing him to kobe but thats not his game. kobe is a shooting guard and shooting has always been a part of his arsenal, lebron is not a shooter so to expect him to gain unbelievable shooting abilities because its the end of the game is absurd. but in the end of games he effects the game in different ways like rebounding defence passing etc and still proves to be one of the best fourth quarter players that way.

c-rock
06-02-2012, 06:29 PM
The guy's main goal in life is to be one of the richest men in the world. Not a championship. WTF,

basketfan4life
06-02-2012, 06:47 PM
The guy's main goal in life is to be one of the richest men in the world. Not a championship. WTF,

Well, i'm a computer engineer and one of the main goals in my life is to be one of the richest men in the world(don't joke on me, i know how far fetched it is :) ), not to create a super software product. Does that make worse at my job? Don't think so.

RLundi
06-02-2012, 06:52 PM
Well, i'm a computer engineer and one of the main goals in my life is to be one of the richest men in the world(don't joke on me, i know how far fetched it is :) ), not to create a super software product. Does that make worse at my job? Don't think so.

That's completely different. LeBron's is a skill-based career and not that yours isn't, but his skills form the basis of his legacy. No one's gonna be the world's best computer engineer or win multiple recognition awards for being an engineer. To want to be a billionaire is all fair and good, who doesn't? It's one thing to want to be rich; it's another to want to dominate and excel at your skill.

And we don't know if LeBron ever wants to do that.

Ollie Tabooger
06-02-2012, 06:53 PM
I'm not gonna lie here, i hated this guy with all my heart. I'm a huge Kobe Bryant fan. Always hated his antics, taking photos, dancing on the floor. Tought he is a stats whore, not clutch, so on and on.

But as of late, i growed a huge respect for this guy's game. Come on, we are talking about the best player in the game here. I hated when he said not 1 not 2... now that i think about it, he went to a new ball club and tried to pump his fans, how is that any different from pat riley guarentiing back to back for lakers when celebrating a c'ship or Kobe saying we're going to play until June in his MVP speech. What if he teamed up with wade? while i respect Kobe or Jordan never trying to do something like that, but at the same time everybody doesn't have to think the same, a young man, living best years of his life, can do whatever he wants to do. If it is playing with one of his best friends and one of the best players in the world, so be it.

Big reason of why i hated this guy was because people tend to give him freepass to everything before he deserves, such as showing some advanced stats and ignoring all of his failures, like his play last years finals or that game 5 against boston in 2010. But we can find those type of moments in any players carreer. I know Kobe was a no show when Boston erased that 24 points deficit in game 4 of 2008 finals, i never hold that against Kobe. And i'm not gonna hold these against LBJ just to hate him. Especially if this big 3 can stay healthy, it would take 4-5 rings for me to put him in the same breath as Magic and Jordan, but if he can't i won't hate him or enjoy it.

I really deeply rooted against this guy, wanted him to never win a championship, now that i think about it, i want him to win at least once before he hangs it. He seems to work real hard and all that hard work shouldn't go down the drain without any glory.Now only thing i don't like about him is his flopping, he needs to cut that off. He is way too strong and way too good to do things like that. I hope he doesn't do it again.

One thing is for sure, Kobe Bryant is my all time favourite and it's not gonna change. His fire, drive, dedication, stubbornness, those are things i love about him. But at the same time i respect the hell out of LeBron James' game and really enjoy to watch him. He is the only player i get up 3 am in the morning(that's when nba games in my country) to watch after Kobe and the Lakers eliminated, and i know as of now he is the best player in the game.

I'm in the exact same boat as you. I loved Lebron for like his first 4 years in the league, bought his jersey and everything. Then his antics, as you mentioned, came into play, and he just became so easy to hate. This site actually made me hate him even more for awhile because everyone around here pinpointed out every single flaw of his and made it out to be way worse than it was.

These playoffs this year though are showing his development in his game and his maturity. And to tell you the truth, Dwyane Wade is probably the biggest reason I and many others are subsiding their hate for Lebron. Wade has become one of the most unlikable players ever, with his constant flopping and whining about everything. My negativity toward the Heat has totally shifted from James to Wade.

And while "The Decision" was a terrible career move for Lebron, we shouldn't let that be a reason to hate an individual so much. It's just irrational, and I feel dumb for having had such a hatred toward someone whose life affected mine in no way.

Gritz
06-02-2012, 07:12 PM
How about that? What the heck does that have to do with anything written

samus
06-02-2012, 07:30 PM
joel anthony is just a straight up bum so don't even bother because the greatest of playmakers can't fix his stone hands.

lmao

MagicHero3
06-02-2012, 07:37 PM
I'm not gonna lie here, i hated this guy with all my heart. I'm a huge Kobe Bryant fan. Always hated his antics, taking photos, dancing on the floor. Tought he is a stats whore, not clutch, so on and on.

But as of late, i growed a huge respect for this guy's game. Come on, we are talking about the best player in the game here. I hated when he said not 1 not 2... now that i think about it, he went to a new ball club and tried to pump his fans, how is that any different from pat riley guarentiing back to back for lakers when celebrating a c'ship or Kobe saying we're going to play until June in his MVP speech. What if he teamed up with wade? while i respect Kobe or Jordan never trying to do something like that, but at the same time everybody doesn't have to think the same, a young man, living best years of his life, can do whatever he wants to do. If it is playing with one of his best friends and one of the best players in the world, so be it.

Big reason of why i hated this guy was because people tend to give him freepass to everything before he deserves, such as showing some advanced stats and ignoring all of his failures, like his play last years finals or that game 5 against boston in 2010. But we can find those type of moments in any players carreer. I know Kobe was a no show when Boston erased that 24 points deficit in game 4 of 2008 finals, i never hold that against Kobe. And i'm not gonna hold these against LBJ just to hate him. Especially if this big 3 can stay healthy, it would take 4-5 rings for me to put him in the same breath as Magic and Jordan, but if he can't i won't hate him or enjoy it.

I really deeply rooted against this guy, wanted him to never win a championship, now that i think about it, i want him to win at least once before he hangs it. He seems to work real hard and all that hard work shouldn't go down the drain without any glory.Now only thing i don't like about him is his flopping, he needs to cut that off. He is way too strong and way too good to do things like that. I hope he doesn't do it again.

One thing is for sure, Kobe Bryant is my all time favourite and it's not gonna change. His fire, drive, dedication, stubbornness, those are things i love about him. But at the same time i respect the hell out of LeBron James' game and really enjoy to watch him. He is the only player i get up 3 am in the morning(that's when nba games in my country) to watch after Kobe and the Lakers eliminated, and i know as of now he is the best player in the game.

everyone has already respected his game. people don't like him bc he's the best player, they don't like him. I see you listed all the things you don't/didnt like about him, but u didn't write the reason why u like him now...except for his talent of course.

samus
06-02-2012, 07:40 PM
I'm not gonna lie here, i hated this guy with all my heart. I'm a huge Kobe Bryant fan. Always hated his antics, taking photos, dancing on the floor. Tought he is a stats whore, not clutch, so on and on.

But as of late, i growed a huge respect for this guy's game. Come on, we are talking about the best player in the game here. I hated when he said not 1 not 2... now that i think about it, he went to a new ball club and tried to pump his fans, how is that any different from pat riley guarentiing back to back for lakers when celebrating a c'ship or Kobe saying we're going to play until June in his MVP speech. What if he teamed up with wade? while i respect Kobe or Jordan never trying to do something like that, but at the same time everybody doesn't have to think the same, a young man, living best years of his life, can do whatever he wants to do. If it is playing with one of his best friends and one of the best players in the world, so be it.

Big reason of why i hated this guy was because people tend to give him freepass to everything before he deserves, such as showing some advanced stats and ignoring all of his failures, like his play last years finals or that game 5 against boston in 2010. But we can find those type of moments in any players carreer. I know Kobe was a no show when Boston erased that 24 points deficit in game 4 of 2008 finals, i never hold that against Kobe. And i'm not gonna hold these against LBJ just to hate him. Especially if this big 3 can stay healthy, it would take 4-5 rings for me to put him in the same breath as Magic and Jordan, but if he can't i won't hate him or enjoy it.

I really deeply rooted against this guy, wanted him to never win a championship, now that i think about it, i want him to win at least once before he hangs it. He seems to work real hard and all that hard work shouldn't go down the drain without any glory.Now only thing i don't like about him is his flopping, he needs to cut that off. He is way too strong and way too good to do things like that. I hope he doesn't do it again.

One thing is for sure, Kobe Bryant is my all time favourite and it's not gonna change. His fire, drive, dedication, stubbornness, those are things i love about him. But at the same time i respect the hell out of LeBron James' game and really enjoy to watch him. He is the only player i get up 3 am in the morning(that's when nba games in my country) to watch after Kobe and the Lakers eliminated, and i know as of now he is the best player in the game.

What a great post. were exactly the same but my player is wade and i was not happy that lebron came to heat and i was a 'hater'. ive said plenty of times of late "lebrons the best" (i really thinc he could score a gazillion points if he decided he was gonna hog it). i respect lebron i just find it hard to root for them. (go celtcs)

basketfan4life
06-02-2012, 07:41 PM
everyone has already respected his game. people don't like him bc he's the best player, they don't like him. I see you listed all the things you don't/didnt like about him, but u didn't write the reason why u like him now...except for his talent of course.

not just talent, i love hard work and giving your all, Lebron this year seems more dedicated than ever. We all know he is a hardworker, and most of all, he is playing amazing bball, which is all that matters. It's not like he is my friend or something so i hold those things against him.

basketfan4life
06-02-2012, 07:46 PM
How about that? What the heck does that have to do with anything written

i know right, i translated it very basically from my language and it sounds dumb :) In Turkish it is like "Şuna ne demeli, LeBron'a saygı duyuyorum", in English it can be put this way "I respect Lebron James, go figure"...This is better.

BALKIS2K12
06-02-2012, 07:48 PM
hes a good player who is growing up. he was always immature. d.wade is still immature.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-02-2012, 09:19 PM
It isn't a misconception. Some of LeBron's teammates that have improved are directly tied to him just being on the team. LeBron has always been a willing passer and is among the best passing forwards in NBA history. He in fact certainly does make his players around him better. It does not necessarily equate to scoring averages going up, even though LeBron has done that for many players in many cases. A better determination is efficiency and effective field goal percentage. Because he is such a good passer and because the defense gives him such a huge amount of attention, he's put his teammates in positions to get wide-open shots, thus raising their eFG% and allowing them to be more efficient. Here is a sample of players that have played a sufficient amount of time with LeBron, looking at their before, during and after numbers. And just for fun, I also included some Heat players, though the sample size seems too small and thus might be a little skewed.

Cleveland Cavaliers

Mo Williams
5 seasons before LeBron: 14.4 PER, .470 eFG
2 seasons with LeBron: 16.7 PER, .542 eFG
2 seasons after LeBron 14.5 PER, .478 eFG

Anderson Varejao
6 seasons with LeBron: 14.8 PER, .514 eFG
2 seasons after LeBron: 17.1 PER, .521 eFG
*played in 56 out of a possible 148 games

Zydrunas Ilgauskus
5 seasons before LeBron: 18.0 PER, .476 eFG
8 seasons with LeBron 18.3 PER, .479 eFG

Drew Gooden
4 seasons before LeBron: 15.6 PER, .476 eFG
4 seasons with LeBron: 16.6 PER, .482 eFG
4 seasons after LeBron: 17.0 PER, .487 eFG

Daniel Gibson
4 seasons with LeBron: 10.6 PER, .547 eFG
2 seasons after LeBron: 11.2 PER, .476 eFG

Sasha Pavlovic
1 season before LeBron: 8.7 PER, .422 eFG
5 seasons with LeBron: 8.8 PER, .482 eFG
3 seasons after LeBron: 6.0 PER, .456 eFG

Delonte West
4 seasons before LeBron: 13.4 PER, .497 eFG
3 seasons with LeBron: 14.0 PER, .503 eFG
2 seasons after LeBron: 13.8 PER, .504 eFG

Miami Heat

Dwyane Wade
7 seasons before LeBron: 25.3 PER, .494 eFG
2 seasons with LeBron: 26.0 PER, .515 eFG

Chris Bosh
7 seasons before LeBron: 21.3 PER, .494 eFG
2 seasons with LeBron: 19.2 PER, .497 eFG

Mario Chalmers
2 seasons before LeBron: 12 PER, .495 eFG
2 seasons with LeBron: 11.6 PER, .528 eFG

Joel Anthony
3 seasons before LeBron: 9.4 PER, .476 eFG
2 seasons with LeBron: 8.8 PER, .588 eFG

I wanted this to be as unbiased as possible, so I also included players that dropped in PER and/or eFG. But in almost all cases, playing with LeBron has increased players' effective field goal percentage, most dramatically with Mo Williams, Daniel Gibson, Sasha Pavlovic and Mario Chalmers. Joel Anthony's percentage increased by more than an entire percentage point. Would these players get the open shots they did had the defense not been as concerned with LeBron? I highly doubt it. Most players' PER remained pretty constant, though it's interesting that Mo Williams' and Pavlovic's increased dramatically, and even Wade's increased from his average.

Again, this isn't by all means intended to be an absolute way of determining anything, as there are much more variables to consider. But this small snippet at least demonstrates that LeBron has in fact made some of his teammates much better by, at the very least, allowing them to get more open looks at the basket and connect on them with more regularity.

Do you think I am just referring to the field goal%, or even their efg%. That is one aspect of the game. He does get them easier shots. That cant be argued. But what about the rest of their games? All of their PER's drop after playing with him. So do their trb%, assist%, steal %, blk%, and per 36 numbers.

Also, look at the trends of those players. You listed what they did before him, but you are including rookie and second year numbers. Those numbers skew what that player was right up until they played with Lebron. The numbers you posted for Bosh totally misrepresent what was going on at the time he joined Lebron. It would be like me posting Shaq's PER before playing with Lebron, or Ben Wallace to show how much he sucked the life out of them.

I am more interested on what he had done to the careers of Jamison, Wade, Bosh, Larry Hughes, and Mike Miller. All those players were still producing, and very efficiently prior to joining up with LBJ.

Look at Bosh advanced numbers for the prime example. Everything has gone down from PER,TS% EFG%, TRB%, AST%, BLK%, WS/48 after joining the Heat.

But he was posting very good numbers before becoming a screen man that could stretch the floor and give Lebron an outlet if he got stopped at the rim.

He had these PER's before playing with LBJ. His average was 23.34 the past 5 seasons.
23.2
22.6
23.8
22.1
25.0

Past two years with Miami.... Not so great. Average of 19.1
19.4
18.9

It may not be LBJ's fault. But his GM's and coaches should stop going after players that they think will best allow Lebron to post great numbers, at the expense of everyone around him. Stop asking basketball players to be outlet options for one player. Allow them to be a more integral part of the teams success so that it doesn't look like Lebron does not have any help.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-02-2012, 09:38 PM
Seems Raps left the thread. I hope he went to go find some evidence to back his claims... Can anyone step up an find someone that has truly excelled with Lebron at the wheel? Dont worry, I'll wait.

Lol what? :laugh2:

I've been up from 8PM last night till my last post. I guess I couldn't finish watching the French open and take a nap . :rolleyes:

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-02-2012, 09:38 PM
This was by far Chalmers best season in the league so idk where u get off saying his rookie season was his best. Haslem hasnt been the same since his injury, Mike Miller hasnt been the same since injury after injury, Chris Bosh is used way less then he was in Toronto and that should be obvious and Joel Anthony is garbage and been garbage. Cant blame that one on Lebron. Damon Jones couldn't do anything except shoot 3s. Wally messed it up pn his on where he just wasn't shooting efficiently, i agree with you on Drew Gooden, Lebron helped with Mo by giving him easier shots. And i do not know how rebound rate of other players can be blamed on Lebron so i dont get why u even bring that up. The fact that you think Kobe makes people better then Lebron does just gets me. I will say Lebron is not the leader Kobe has kind of grown to be but Lebron makes things alot easier for other players then Kobe does.

That is my whole point. I never said Lebron does not get his teammates open shots. He does. But that does not make his teammates better. If it did, all aspects of their game would improve instead of just efg%.

I look at sports like I look at any form of business. When you are the teams leader/best player, it is up to you to hold teammates accountable for all their actions on the court. Just like it is a supervisors or managers duty to make sure his/her employees are performing their task up to par. If that supervisor or manager is doing all the work themselves, while the employees text and goof off on company time, that is not a good leader. That is what I see happening with his teammates. They are not rebounding as good as they have shown they could in the past. They are not doing really anything that they have shown they could do in the past. They have become outlets, second third or fourth offensive options that have one job. Catch and shoot. That is not a way to run a business, or a team. A good leader makes it his responsibility to make sure these employees are improving their work ethi,.(Practice) and getting the job done themselves. Sometimes that means you put a foot in the @$$ to get results. It wont make you the most liked (Kobe), but it does get results. Nobody likes to work for the ahole boss. But if you have ever had one, you know you work harder for him than you do for your boss who tries to be your friend. (Lebron)

That just may be the reason why Kobe's teammates overall numbers improve while playing with him, and Lebrons teammates per game numbers, PER, TRB%, AST% STL% BLK%, all go down. I know its not because Kobe gets his teammates more open shots. Its the only reason I can think of though that would explain why Kobe could take a guy who's average PER was 15 for 5 years before joining Kobe, and somehow make it go up to 15.9. While Lebron takes that same player and turns that 15 into 14.1 (Just a hypothetical player.)

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-02-2012, 09:39 PM
Lol what? :laugh2:

I've been up from 8PM last night till my last post. I guess I couldn't finish watching the French open and take a nap . :rolleyes:

Oh good your back. So now that your well rested, can you give me those examples?

Raps18-19 Champ
06-02-2012, 09:49 PM
But like I said, you can find some example of all great players, and teammates they had a negative affect on. But there are also many examples of them having a very visible impact on other teammates improvement in production/efficiency. Nash has done wonders for multiple teammates so it makes the few that did not excel with him seem like the minority. Lebron does not have those glaring examples of making players better to counter the negative ones.

Like I said, Nash actually got the OOPRTUNITY to play with someone who was a great mix with him. Has Lebron actually got a team that greatly complements him like all those other great playmakers? Guys like Shaq, Anthony, Vareajo and others were brought up. It's as if people expect Lebron to pull miracles. Lebron's not the best, but he's surely very capable of helping out his team mates. Nash went from a half court based team to a fast paced team, a system that he greatly benefited from, and you saw the results. In Lebron's career, there's been rare occasions where he's had players who is suited for a faster paced game while being a complementary piece instead of a player that causes a redundancy.


That seems to be Lebrons problem. There seems to be no player in the league that his style compliments. I only say this because it is reflected in the numbers. Wade has suffered statistically in Lebrons system and they are essentially the same player. Bosh has down right fallen off playing along side James, but you would think with his ability to pick and pop, they would mesh perfectly. NOT HAPPENING! So who's fault is it? Is it the every teammate he's ever had fault for not producing when he is their teammate, or should Lebron take some of the blame for running the offense as he does?

Wait! So we blame Lebron for others not adapting to him? It's not anyone's fault they don't mesh. If 2 games don't mix, they don't mix and that's not Lebron's or the teammates' fault. But you have to expect that the teammates should adapt to Lebron rather than Lebron adapt to his teammates. Also, Wade and Lebron cause a redundancy, it's like having Kobe and Carmelo on the floor, both can't play off the ball. Bosh is a half court player so you expect him to drop, just like how Nash couldn't mix with Dirk but with Amare because Dirk is better for half court while Amare is great in the open floor.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-02-2012, 09:58 PM
- People compare him to the all-time greats even though he hasn't warranted it yet. Win a few rings first.



While rings will always be his downfall, his talent and individual accolades alone elevates him to All time great comparisons. He doesn't have the post season success, but it's completely fair to compare 1 talent to another. One's success to another is a different story when it comes to Lebron though. Even then, 3 MVPs is an impressive feat in itself.

Bring The Heat
06-02-2012, 09:59 PM
That is my whole point. I never said Lebron does not get his teammates open shots. He does. But that does not make his teammates better. If it did, all aspects of their game would improve instead of just efg%.

I look at sports like I look at any form of business. When you are the teams leader/best player, it is up to you to hold teammates accountable for all their actions on the court. Just like it is a supervisors or managers duty to make sure his/her employees are performing their task up to par. If that supervisor or manager is doing all the work themselves, while the employees text and goof off on company time, that is not a good leader. That is what I see happening with his teammates. They are not rebounding as good as they have shown they could in the past. They are not doing really anything that they have shown they could do in the past. They have become outlets, second third or fourth offensive options that have one job. Catch and shoot. That is not a way to run a business, or a team. A good leader makes it his responsibility to make sure these employees are improving their work ethi,.(Practice) and getting the job done themselves. Sometimes that means you put a foot in the @$$ to get results. It wont make you the most liked (Kobe), but it does get results. Nobody likes to work for the ahole boss. But if you have ever had one, you know you work harder for him than you do for your boss who tries to be your friend. (Lebron)

That just may be the reason why Kobe's teammates overall numbers improve while playing with him, and Lebrons teammates per game numbers, PER, TRB%, AST% STL% BLK%, all go down. I know its not because Kobe gets his teammates more open shots. Its the only reason I can think of though that would explain why Kobe could take a guy who's average PER was 15 for 5 years before joining Kobe, and somehow make it go up to 15.9. While Lebron takes that same player and turns that 15 into 14.1 (Just a hypothetical player.)

LeBron is a willing passer and let me add better at it. He's not always looking to take his own shot but looking to also make the right play to the open teammate. Kobe is notorious for being a ball hog and always being the one to determine whether his team loses or wins. He's a great individual player but he has most of his rings because of the having big guys like Shaq, Gasol, Bynum and Odom. Great supporting cast.

Kobe has 5 rings? Well LeBron didn't have the pleasure of having to play with the most dominant big man in Shaquille O'Neal... I think if LeBron had a prime shaq he'd have his rings already. LeBron wasted 7 years of his career with not one superstar/allstar next to him. Mo Williams was his best player, thats not going to cut it

Raps18-19 Champ
06-02-2012, 10:08 PM
Seems DODGERS&LAKERS left the thread. :rolleyes:

;)

BostonMafia
06-02-2012, 10:14 PM
u know what i find funny about all this ranting of LBJ getting no rings. Mj did not get his first until he was 28 years old and LBJ is only 27. now don't get me wrong i don't think he will pull off 2 three peats of championships like MJ did. But I gotta throw that out there.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-02-2012, 10:19 PM
u know what i find funny about all this ranting of LBJ getting no rings. Mj did not get his first until he was 28 years old and LBJ is only 27. now don't get me wrong i don't think he will pull off 2 three peats of championships like MJ did. But I gotta throw that out there.

Apparently, people say he should have won with his teams in Cleveland. While they were very successful in the regular season, those Cleveland teams compared to any of the championship teams is lacklustered. I'd say only a handful of championship teams were overall worse than that Cleveland team.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-02-2012, 11:19 PM
=Raps08-09 Champ;22388670]Like I said, Nash actually got the OOPRTUNITY to play with someone who was a great mix with him. Has Lebron actually got a team that greatly complements him like all those other great playmakers? Guys like Shaq, Anthony, Vareajo and others were brought up. It's as if people expect Lebron to pull miracles. Lebron's not the best, but he's surely very capable of helping out his team mates. Nash went from a half court based team to a fast paced team, a system that he greatly benefited from, and you saw the results. In Lebron's career, there's been rare occasions where he's had players who is suited for a faster paced game while being a complementary piece instead of a player that causes a redundancy.

He has played 8 years in the league. You would think someone would be able to excel in that time. Why is it so hard for his GM's to put the perfect scenario around him? No great player has had a perfect scenario around him. Why does a great player need everything to be perfect? What players would you put around him that could thrive in "his system".



Wait! So we blame Lebron for others not adapting to him? It's not anyone's fault they don't mesh. If 2 games don't mix, they don't mix and that's not Lebron's or the teammates' fault. But you have to expect that the teammates should adapt to Lebron rather than Lebron adapt to his teammates. Also, Wade and Lebron cause a redundancy, it's like having Kobe and Carmelo on the floor, both can't play off the ball. Bosh is a half court player so you expect him to drop, just like how Nash couldn't mix with Dirk but with Amare because Dirk is better for half court while Amare is great in the open floor.


Um.... yeah. I do expect the best player to be able to adapt his game a little to benefit the rest of the team. Especially when we have seen that his way does not work. Great coaches change the game plan to accommodate their personnel. Great players are no different.

dalton749
06-02-2012, 11:24 PM
wade is really good off the ball and i wish they would realize that at the end of games and keep it in lebrons hands thats when they play best

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-02-2012, 11:28 PM
LeBron is a willing passer and let me add better at it. He's not always looking to take his own shot but looking to also make the right play to the open teammate. Kobe is notorious for being a ball hog and always being the one to determine whether his team loses or wins. He's a great individual player but he has most of his rings because of the having big guys like Shaq, Gasol, Bynum and Odom. Great supporting cast.

Kobe has 5 rings? Well LeBron didn't have the pleasure of having to play with the most dominant big man in Shaquille O'Neal... I think if LeBron had a prime shaq he'd have his rings already. LeBron wasted 7 years of his career with not one superstar/allstar next to him. Mo Williams was his best player, thats not going to cut it

Let me make one thing clear. I have never argued about Lebron not winning rings in Cleveland. HE DID NOT HAVE THE NECESSARY TALENT AROUND HIM! That is not what I have been saying. I am just pointing out that even though Kobe has the reputation for being a "ball hog", when ever players play along side him, their games seem to flourish. Shaq had his best 4 years of his 19 year career after Kobe started to play big minutes. Pau Gasol improved his production and efficiency after he joined Kobe. Lamar Odom had the best year of his career on that ball hogs team. Derek Fisher put up his best statistical season at age 33 when he rejoined the Lakers. With Kobe, you can see a pattern of improvement with his teammates once they join forces.

With Lebron, you see the opposite affect. They get worse. I have posted many links to show this to be fact. It is not my opinion, it is a fact. Just like a Kobe fan can not argue that he puts up better stats more efficiently than Lebron, a Lebron fan HAS NO ARGUMENT that Lebron has a more positive impact on his teammates than Kobe has on his.

Fly
06-02-2012, 11:31 PM
I actually agree with the OP..

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-02-2012, 11:32 PM
Seems DODGERS&LAKERS left the thread. :rolleyes:

;)

Touché

ManRam
06-02-2012, 11:32 PM
You will never in a million years convince me that Kobe makes those around him better than LeBron does. It's so incredibly awful that it always becomes this, because Laker fans are defensive of Kobe (as they should be, he's amazing). But why is it always Kobe v LeBron. They've never been eachother's biggest competition. Who cares? Oh...Kobe fans care...

Your post earlier is a joke, sorry. But it is. LeBron being a detriment to his teammates? A joke. Period. He took those CLE teams further than any player in the league could. Period. Bosh and Wade putting up lesser per game numbers since joining is the worst proof you could use. Of course they'll regress...what do you expect? They went from being the best players on their teams to the second and third best players. That's a horrible example. Guys like Delonte, Mo, Anderson, Boobie, Mario, etc. all thrived with LeBron there. if there's anything you can accuse LeBron of...well...it's anything but selfish. I've never heard him called that...whether it be the media or former players...he's been labeled as SELFLESS to a fault...


Sorry D&L, but I can't take this seriously.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-02-2012, 11:39 PM
But to be clear, I love Lebron as an individual player. If I saw him and Jordan at 21, I might go with LBJ. His size, speed and all his attributes have never been seen before. But no player is perfect. I would like to see him get his teammates to raise thier game. If he does that, he may be the best player that ever played.

JC_
06-02-2012, 11:48 PM
Let me make one thing clear. I have never argued about Lebron not winning rings in Cleveland. HE DID NOT HAVE THE NECESSARY TALENT AROUND HIM!

So Lebron took a team that isn't very talented to the finals but you say he doesn't make his teammates better? I'd like to have seen Kobe take that Cavs team to the finals without Phil Jackson coaching them.

I will say one thing about Lebron that Kobe had and he does not. The ability to intimidate his teammates to play harder. Things usually get better when Lebron steps on the court but it's mainly because he holds things together so well and fills a huge void. If he somehow can pick up that Phil Jackson-style toughness and it spreads to his teammates, they would be even better.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-02-2012, 11:48 PM
He has played 8 years in the league. You would think someone would be able to excel in that time. Why is it so hard for his GM's to put the perfect scenario around him? No great player has had a perfect scenario around him. Why does a great player need everything to be perfect? What players would you put around him that could thrive in "his system".

Took Nash 8 years. :shrug: Not saying he needs the perfect situation, but it's clear guys like MJ, Bird, Kobe and others had better stars and role team mates around them that complement their game compared to the stars and role team mates Lebron has gotten.

Doesn't help the GM's haven't built the best mix of players. In terms of the Heat, they got 3 players who like to ISO a good amount with 2 playes being redundant and a big man who is literally useless without the ball. The best player Cavs GM signed is Larry Hughes and he couldn't shoot at all (http://heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com/). Cavs did a bit better trading for a shooting PG (should be a SG) who is able to play off the ball and make shots. But they chose a slow aging Shaq, who completely contradicts Lebron's game, over Amare, who would arguably strive alongside Lebron's passing abilities.

Do you think the GM did the best they can in terms of making a team that complements Lebron? I mean outside of Mo, it's hard to find a player brought in that complement Lebron to a great extent. They tried with the sharp shooting Michael Redd but that ended up failing.

To ask you though, do you think guys like Shaq, Hughes, Ilgauskas, Anthony, Haslem, Miller, Verejao, etc fit his game properly? It' clear most of his team mates have been better as a half set player. His best team mate has been Wade and they are way too similar for them to play together. 1 has to play off the ball and it's very clear that their production drops when they don't have the ball in their hands more.

I'd put faster paced shooters around Lebron like(not all great shooters can work around Lebron) like Terry, Mo Williams. A PF or C who is great in the open floor like a prime Amare or Marion in theory should do wonders.



Um.... yeah. I do expect the best player to be able to adapt his game a little to benefit the rest of the team. Especially when we have seen that his way does not work. Great coaches change the game plan to accommodate their personnel. Great players are no different.

You think the Heat would do better if Lebron accommodated so guys like Haslem, Anthony, and Battier can score and play their game more? At what point does he adapt his game so everyone else can excel? Because the trade off would be horrible.

I agree he should adapt a bit but with the players he's had outside Wade and Bosh, it's hard to see if it's even worth it. He can adapt to Wade and Bosh, but he can't adapt his game for them when Wade and Bosh play different games themselves. That's why it seems the Heat do better with just Wade and Lebron or Lebron and Bosh because when all 3 are on the floor, there's a redundancy and contradiction of games while when it's just 2, they don't have to worry about the one left out. This trio is arguably one of the worst 'Big three' ever built. None complement off each other. I mean don't you realize that it's often Lebron and Wade who gets the big games while Bosh barely gets touches? Or if Bosh does get touches, one of Wade or Lebron has a subpar game because they have to slow down a bit for Bosh?

naps
06-02-2012, 11:50 PM
Thanks to the OP. Good to know people are actually realizing his greatness.

And did someone really say LeBron doesn't make teammates better? This is probably the dumbest claim in sports history.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-02-2012, 11:52 PM
So Lebron took a team that isn't very talented to the finals but you say he doesn't make his teammates better? I'd like to have seen Kobe take that Cavs team to the finals without Phil Jackson coaching them.

I will say one thing about Lebron that Kobe had and he does not. The ability to intimidate his teammates to play harder. Things usually get better when Lebron steps on the court but it's mainly because he holds things together so well and fills a huge void. If he somehow can pick up that Phil Jackson-style toughness and it spreads to his teammates, they would be even better.

That was all Lebron the year he took the Cavs team to the finals. No one on his team practically did anything. Offensively or defensively.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-03-2012, 12:03 AM
=ManRamForPrez24;22389912]You will never in a million years convince me that Kobe makes those around him better than LeBron does. It's so incredibly awful that it always becomes this, because Laker fans are defensive of Kobe (as they should be, he's amazing). But why is it always Kobe v LeBron. They've never been eachother's biggest competition. Who cares? Oh...Kobe fans care...

First off, it was a Laker fan that started the thread to praise Lebron, and countless other Laker fans that came in to say the same thing. It was not a Laker fan who started the debate about whether he makes his teams better. But I chimed in when I saw some more misconceptions arising. People have since argued my points so I feel like I should refute those false claims. Not a bid deal. Look at the links that I provided for Kobe's teammates. Shaq, Pau, Lamar, Smush, Sasha, Fisher, Ariza, Shannon Brown, and many others have had career years along side Bryant. I cant find half that amount of players who have even had a better year than they had the year before they joined James.


Your post earlier is a joke, sorry. But it is. LeBron being a detriment to his teammates? A joke. Period. He took those CLE teams further than any player in the league could. Period.

Like I said earlier, someone had to come out of the east those years. AI got his team with even less talent to the finals, and actually won a game against the best playoff team ever. What does that prove? Coming out of the east those years was equal to being the tallest midget.


Bosh and Wade putting up lesser per game numbers since joining is the worst proof you could use. Of course they'll regress...what do you expect? They went from being the best players on their teams to the second and third best players. That's a horrible example.

Not once did I mention per game averages. Only an idiot would argue that. The links I posted that showed his teammates production before and after, should only have their advanced stats looked at. I am only looking at their overall efficiency as in their PER, TS%, EFG% TRB%, AST%, STL%,BLK% and so on and so forth. Those are the numbers that have severely declined. Especially in Bosh's case.


Guys like Delonte, Mo, Anderson, Boobie, Mario, etc. all thrived with LeBron there.

Did you open the links that I provided earlier? Those claims are false. Their overall efficiency and other advanced stats declined. Please go look for yourself if you dont believe me. Because of the misconception of Lebron having a great affect on his teammates, I can understand you not believing it. So if I were you, I would want to check this out for myself to see it with my own two eyes rather than listen to some obviously bias person with Lakers in his name.


if there's anything you can accuse LeBron of...well...it's anything but selfish. I've never heard him called that...whether it be the media or former players...he's been labeled as SELFLESS to a fault...

Selfish??? Not in a million years. I have never said that. I have only looked and provided the numbers of his teammates before, during, and after playing with him. And history shows that he has a negative on his teammates overall production. Why is this the case? I have no idea. I just report what I see.


Sorry D&L, but I can't take this seriously.


Thats fine. I can understand not believing such outlandish claims. But they also poopooed the idea that the earth was not flat, nor the center of the universe. I guess until Hollinger starts to report this fact as part of his statistical analysis, people will accuse me of blasphemy as well. But I have waited all day, and no one has provided me with an example of a player who has improved his production/efficiency along side LBJ.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-03-2012, 12:10 AM
So Lebron took a team that isn't very talented to the finals but you say he doesn't make his teammates better? I'd like to have seen Kobe take that Cavs team to the finals without Phil Jackson coaching them.

I will say one thing about Lebron that Kobe had and he does not. The ability to intimidate his teammates to play harder. Things usually get better when Lebron steps on the court but it's mainly because he holds things together so well and fills a huge void. If he somehow can pick up that Phil Jackson-style toughness and it spreads to his teammates, they would be even better.

DING DING DING! You get it. Lebron is a better player than Kobe. His team got to the finals on Lebrons talent alone. That is all I have been saying. He needs to get his teammates to step up like they have shown they could produce in the past. Kobe may be a dick, but maybe that is why his teammates produce better with him, than they did on other teams. Accountability. He does not let anything slide. He is not there to be your friend. I cant say thats the only reason that he gets the best out of his teammates, its really just a theory. But the stats show that he does get the best out of them. And we all know it is not because he is a great facilitator.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-03-2012, 12:10 AM
That was all Lebron the year he took the Cavs team to the finals. No one on his team practically did anything. Offensively or defensively.

See, now your arguing my point. Welcome to the dark side :cool:

mngopher35
06-03-2012, 12:32 AM
Chronz showed some PER and EFG% to disprove some of your points. Are you seriously surprised that when a great rebounder who is ball dominant is added to a team peoples reb% and ast% go down? So your blaming lebron because he helps his team by getting rebounds?

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-03-2012, 12:32 AM
Chronz is here! He is about to obliterate my post. :hide: :)

Chronz, we talked about this before. I dont know if you seen the last post in that other thread, but I asked you a couple of questions that I really wanted your insight. Did you see it?

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-03-2012, 12:35 AM
Chronz showed some PER and EFG% to disprove some of your points. Are you seriously surprised that when a great rebounder who is ball dominant is added to a team peoples reb% and ast% go down? So your blaming lebron because he helps his team by getting rebounds?

When and where did that happen? I must have missed it. If I remember correctly, Chronz agreed with me that Kobe had a better affect on his teammates production, more than what Lebron does for his. But that was a long time ago that he had that opinion. It may have changed since then

Chronz
06-03-2012, 12:35 AM
After I went through the trouble of explaining some of these your still passing off these bad examples? You have plenty to work with that may make sense but these are just horrible.


Varajao actually had played better these past two seasons without Lebron. His PER, TRB%, AST%, STEAL%, DRTG, have all improved these past two years. As well as his per 36 min numbers of points, rebounds and assist.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/v/varejan01.html
His BEST season was with Bron. His first season without Bron he was FAR less efficient. His Defensive RTG was not better and his WS/48 declined big time. And throughout his tenure with Bron, his #'s were better with him on court. Last year he played 25 games


Mo Williams had his best year in Milwaukee the year before he went to Cleveland.
False


He only made the all star team as an alternate because people seen him on T.V. more often then they seen the champion Laker's that season. 25 national tv games to the Laker's 24. But Mo had a just as good a PER, a higher TRB%, higher assist %, higher steal%, and better per 36 minute numbers without Lebron. Lebron did help in Mo's overall TS% percentage, but thats it. Every other aspect of Mo's game went down.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html

LOL, thats it? Efficiency is the most important aspect, he was able to raise his usage% and his offensive efficiency. Its why his rate of WinShares blew up.


But I will take any other suggestions. :)
So you can ignore them as you have mine?

mngopher35
06-03-2012, 12:37 AM
It isn't a misconception. Some of LeBron's teammates that have improved are directly tied to him just being on the team. LeBron has always been a willing passer and is among the best passing forwards in NBA history. He in fact certainly does make his players around him better. It does not necessarily equate to scoring averages going up, even though LeBron has done that for many players in many cases. A better determination is efficiency and effective field goal percentage. Because he is such a good passer and because the defense gives him such a huge amount of attention, he's put his teammates in positions to get wide-open shots, thus raising their eFG% and allowing them to be more efficient. Here is a sample of players that have played a sufficient amount of time with LeBron, looking at their before, during and after numbers. And just for fun, I also included some Heat players, though the sample size seems too small and thus might be a little skewed.

Cleveland Cavaliers

Mo Williams
5 seasons before LeBron: 14.4 PER, .470 eFG
2 seasons with LeBron: 16.7 PER, .542 eFG
2 seasons after LeBron 14.5 PER, .478 eFG

Anderson Varejao
6 seasons with LeBron: 14.8 PER, .514 eFG
2 seasons after LeBron: 17.1 PER, .521 eFG
*played in 56 out of a possible 148 games

Zydrunas Ilgauskus
5 seasons before LeBron: 18.0 PER, .476 eFG
8 seasons with LeBron 18.3 PER, .479 eFG

Drew Gooden
4 seasons before LeBron: 15.6 PER, .476 eFG
4 seasons with LeBron: 16.6 PER, .482 eFG
4 seasons after LeBron: 17.0 PER, .487 eFG

Daniel Gibson
4 seasons with LeBron: 10.6 PER, .547 eFG
2 seasons after LeBron: 11.2 PER, .476 eFG

Sasha Pavlovic
1 season before LeBron: 8.7 PER, .422 eFG
5 seasons with LeBron: 8.8 PER, .482 eFG
3 seasons after LeBron: 6.0 PER, .456 eFG

Delonte West
4 seasons before LeBron: 13.4 PER, .497 eFG
3 seasons with LeBron: 14.0 PER, .503 eFG
2 seasons after LeBron: 13.8 PER, .504 eFG

Miami Heat

Dwyane Wade
7 seasons before LeBron: 25.3 PER, .494 eFG
2 seasons with LeBron: 26.0 PER, .515 eFG

Chris Bosh
7 seasons before LeBron: 21.3 PER, .494 eFG
2 seasons with LeBron: 19.2 PER, .497 eFG

Mario Chalmers
2 seasons before LeBron: 12 PER, .495 eFG
2 seasons with LeBron: 11.6 PER, .528 eFG

Joel Anthony
3 seasons before LeBron: 9.4 PER, .476 eFG
2 seasons with LeBron: 8.8 PER, .588 eFG

I wanted this to be as unbiased as possible, so I also included players that dropped in PER and/or eFG. But in almost all cases, playing with LeBron has increased players' effective field goal percentage, most dramatically with Mo Williams, Daniel Gibson, Sasha Pavlovic and Mario Chalmers. Joel Anthony's percentage increased by more than an entire percentage point. Would these players get the open shots they did had the defense not been as concerned with LeBron? I highly doubt it. Most players' PER remained pretty constant, though it's interesting that Mo Williams' and Pavlovic's increased dramatically, and even Wade's increased from his average.

Again, this isn't by all means intended to be an absolute way of determining anything, as there are much more variables to consider. But this small snippet at least demonstrates that LeBron has in fact made some of his teammates much better by, at the very least, allowing them to get more open looks at the basket and connect on them with more regularity.

Sorry it was rlundi86, not chronz.

Chronz
06-03-2012, 12:41 AM
When and where did that happen? I must have missed it. If I remember correctly, Chronz agreed with me that Kobe had a better affect on his teammates production, more than what Lebron does for his. But that was a long time ago that he had that opinion. It may have changed since then
I explained the examples you listed as best I could and pointed out flaws in your methods.

I do think Kobe is better at making players better but I also admitted every time I tried to quantify this effect my nose started bleeding. Not quite with those words but alot gos into play, and alot of stats you underscore or simply ignore.


Take Lamar Odom for example, would you say he played better with Wade or his first year with Kobe?

His PER dropped from 18.5 to 17.3. His PTS, ASSISTS, STL all dropped.


BUT his overall efficiency improved. Isnt that the point? Isnt the main goal to make your players bottom line more conducive to winning basketball?

bucketss
06-03-2012, 12:42 AM
After I went through the trouble of explaining some of these your still passing off these bad examples? You have plenty to work with that may make sense but these are just horrible.


His BEST season was with Bron. His first season without Bron he was FAR less efficient. His Defensive RTG was not better and his WS/48 declined big time. And throughout his tenure with Bron, his #'s were better with him on court. Last year he played 25 games


False


LOL, thats it? Efficiency is the most important aspect, he was able to raise his usage% and his offensive efficiency. Its why his rate of WinShares blew up.


So you can ignore them as you have mine?

:clap:

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-03-2012, 12:44 AM
It isn't a misconception. Some of LeBron's teammates that have improved are directly tied to him just being on the team. LeBron has always been a willing passer and is among the best passing forwards in NBA history. He in fact certainly does make his players around him better. It does not necessarily equate to scoring averages going up, even though LeBron has done that for many players in many cases. A better determination is efficiency and effective field goal percentage. Because he is such a good passer and because the defense gives him such a huge amount of attention, he's put his teammates in positions to get wide-open shots, thus raising their eFG% and allowing them to be more efficient. Here is a sample of players that have played a sufficient amount of time with LeBron, looking at their before, during and after numbers. And just for fun, I also included some Heat players, though the sample size seems too small and thus might be a little skewed.

Cleveland Cavaliers

Mo Williams
5 seasons before LeBron: 14.4 PER, .470 eFG
2 seasons with LeBron: 16.7 PER, .542 eFG
2 seasons after LeBron 14.5 PER, .478 eFG

Anderson Varejao
6 seasons with LeBron: 14.8 PER, .514 eFG
2 seasons after LeBron: 17.1 PER, .521 eFG
*played in 56 out of a possible 148 games

Zydrunas Ilgauskus
5 seasons before LeBron: 18.0 PER, .476 eFG
8 seasons with LeBron 18.3 PER, .479 eFG

Drew Gooden
4 seasons before LeBron: 15.6 PER, .476 eFG
4 seasons with LeBron: 16.6 PER, .482 eFG
4 seasons after LeBron: 17.0 PER, .487 eFG

Daniel Gibson
4 seasons with LeBron: 10.6 PER, .547 eFG
2 seasons after LeBron: 11.2 PER, .476 eFG

Sasha Pavlovic
1 season before LeBron: 8.7 PER, .422 eFG
5 seasons with LeBron: 8.8 PER, .482 eFG
3 seasons after LeBron: 6.0 PER, .456 eFG

Delonte West
4 seasons before LeBron: 13.4 PER, .497 eFG
3 seasons with LeBron: 14.0 PER, .503 eFG
2 seasons after LeBron: 13.8 PER, .504 eFG

Miami Heat

Dwyane Wade
7 seasons before LeBron: 25.3 PER, .494 eFG
2 seasons with LeBron: 26.0 PER, .515 eFG

Chris Bosh
7 seasons before LeBron: 21.3 PER, .494 eFG
2 seasons with LeBron: 19.2 PER, .497 eFG

Mario Chalmers
2 seasons before LeBron: 12 PER, .495 eFG
2 seasons with LeBron: 11.6 PER, .528 eFG

Joel Anthony
3 seasons before LeBron: 9.4 PER, .476 eFG
2 seasons with LeBron: 8.8 PER, .588 eFG

I wanted this to be as unbiased as possible, so I also included players that dropped in PER and/or eFG. But in almost all cases, playing with LeBron has increased players' effective field goal percentage, most dramatically with Mo Williams, Daniel Gibson, Sasha Pavlovic and Mario Chalmers. Joel Anthony's percentage increased by more than an entire percentage point. Would these players get the open shots they did had the defense not been as concerned with LeBron? I highly doubt it. Most players' PER remained pretty constant, though it's interesting that Mo Williams' and Pavlovic's increased dramatically, and even Wade's increased from his average.

Again, this isn't by all means intended to be an absolute way of determining anything, as there are much more variables to consider. But this small snippet at least demonstrates that LeBron has in fact made some of his teammates much better by, at the very least, allowing them to get more open looks at the basket and connect on them with more regularity.


Do you think I am just referring to the field goal%, or even their efg%. That is one aspect of the game. He does get them easier shots. That cant be argued. But what about the rest of their games? All of their PER's drop after playing with him. So do their trb%, assist%, steal %, blk%, and per 36 numbers.

Also, look at the trends of those players. You listed what they did before him, but you are including rookie and second year numbers. Those numbers skew what that player was right up until they played with Lebron. The numbers you posted for Bosh totally misrepresent what was going on at the time he joined Lebron. It would be like me posting Shaq's PER before playing with Lebron, or Ben Wallace to show how much he sucked the life out of them.

I am more interested on what he had done to the careers of Jamison, Wade, Bosh, Larry Hughes, and Mike Miller. All those players were still producing, and very efficiently prior to joining up with LBJ.

Look at Bosh advanced numbers for the prime example. Everything has gone down from PER,TS% EFG%, TRB%, AST%, BLK%, WS/48 after joining the Heat.

But he was posting very good numbers before becoming a screen man that could stretch the floor and give Lebron an outlet if he got stopped at the rim.

He had these PER's before playing with LBJ. His average was 23.34 the past 5 seasons.
23.2
22.6
23.8
22.1
25.0

Past two years with Miami.... Not so great. Average of 19.1
19.4
18.9

It may not be LBJ's fault. But his GM's and coaches should stop going after players that they think will best allow Lebron to post great numbers, at the expense of everyone around him. Stop asking basketball players to be outlet options for one player. Allow them to be a more integral part of the teams success so that it doesn't look like Lebron does not have any help.


Sorry it was rlundi86, not chronz.

I did see his post, but was not happy with the numbers he used to skew his argument. I posted why I did not think his arguement held any water in the post right below.

mngopher35
06-03-2012, 12:48 AM
ok, but can you tell me why you hold lower reb% and ast% against him? He is a good rebounder, and ball dominant, of course those will decrease. You want him to stop rebounding and scoring/assisting so his teammates can try to do more?

HesterJordan23
06-03-2012, 12:51 AM
first off i hate lebron to the core of my heart i will always dispise this man and every player on the heat... but do i disrespect there game...not at all

but for lebron i would respect that man if he actually had the elite mentality.. he is imature he likes to be in the spotlight and has his head in the wrong place.. he has a great talent not even he has an elite talent but his mentality will carry his *** down the whole way through his career unless out of nowhere he changes..second he isnt a leader..this is more for the comparison to mike or kobe but he also cant lead i have the same issue with kevin durant i love that dude but for some reason he isnt making himself the leader which will carry him down with his talent

Chronz
06-03-2012, 01:04 AM
Let me put it as succinctly as I can. A lower PER does not always imply a lesser performance, particularly IF the efficiency at which the player played with was significantly higher than the loss in usage would dictate.

There is no exact science behind this mind you, usage vs efficiency is a tricky subject that gets more complex with more analysis, but we have WinShares and PER for a reason, they provide a stark contrast in how they favor those 2 sides of the argument. Simply put, the better combination of the 2 a player has, the more likely it is the player was being optimized, particularly if his team is actually winning more games than before.

Dean Oliver has a basic rule of thumb for projecting efficiency, though again its not an exact science, basically for every loss in usage you should expect an uptick in efficiency in a 1:1.5 ratio. Thats just a guideline but every player has his own skill curve.

You get a better picture of that players skill curve over time and observing the difference in roles.


Ill take you back to a debate I had with Laker fans back when Ariza was exchanged for Artest. I argued that despite Artest having a reputation as a better offensive player, that his addition would actually make the Lakers worse offensively.

This was because he had never displayed an ability to be as efficient as Ariza was, and his expected improvement would be minimal. I entertained the idea that he could somehow make the offense better in spite of his (lack of) efficiency IF he made others more efficient (he did not). As it turned out his Offensive RTG only improved 2PTS while accounting for roughly the same amount of offense as Ariza had the year prior and the Lakers offense suffered because they replaced an efficient role player for an inefficient volume scorer who could no longer chuck to his hearts content because it would take away from Kobes (the teams) game.

Where Artest value comes in his ability to maintain a mediocre efficiency level despite taking on a greater role in the offense. Thats why if your building an offense around someone, Artest would be the better OFFENSIVE choice. If your building around a greater threat, the role player who is accustomed to the role would be better.

You could argue Kobe made Artest worse but it was due to a redundant skillset and it was in the teams best interest. Is it right to blame Kobe in this situation? Do we fault Artest for not having a game that can adapt to a superior player? If you do then I can get behind alot of the players you listed that suffered with Bron, but many of them didnt. Some of them played better (As Odom did with Kobe IMO), and some of them were just injured or already declining.

Again, I do think Kobe is underrated in this regard and I do think hes better than Bron at making his teammates better. But I dont like many of the example you cite.

NYKnicks4511
06-03-2012, 01:06 AM
Not to mention he likes to read.

Reading is good kids.

26 seconds dot org!

It cracks me up every time to see LeBron's shti-eating grin every time that commercial comes on. Like LeBron wouldn't have skipped high school if he could have gone straight to the association, hah.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-03-2012, 01:08 AM
=Chronz;22390339]After I went through the trouble of explaining some of these your still passing off these bad examples? You have plenty to work with that may make sense but these are just horrible.

That was what I asked you in that other thread. You never got back to me to I just went with what my eyes saw.


His BEST season was with Bron. His first season without Bron he was FAR less efficient. His Defensive RTG was not better and his WS/48 declined big time. And throughout his tenure with Bron, his #'s were better with him on court. Last year he played 25 games

I will be honest, I dont usually have a lot of time to delve into every stat, so I am guilty of the letting the PER be my guide. When the PER, seem close, then I move on to the next stats to see which year was really better. And from what I saw, Andy V has played better in the limited games without Lebron than he ever did with him.


False

His PER was .2% higher, so I looked at the other stats and seen he had a way highet ast%, stl%, and turned the ball over much less. His advanced stats roughly stayed the same except for his offensive and defensive rating. But that is attributed to being on the floor with a player like Lebron. So I looked at his per 36 minutes and seen that he was a little better with the Bucks. Their may have been a slight improvement, but nothing that says "Lebron turned this players career around"



LOL, thats it? Efficiency is the most important aspect, he was able to raise his usage% and his offensive efficiency. Its why his rate of WinShares blew up.

His ts% goes up, just like almost every other player with Bron, but as I stated before, that is not the only aspect of the game. A higher usage% just means he had a bigger part in the offense.


So you can ignore them as you have mine?

I did not ignore yours. I did not agree with what you provided. I know you have more as to why you believed I was wrong. But you never elaborated. I cant take "false" as a reason to change my opinion.

Chronz
06-03-2012, 01:12 AM
Oh and coaching still matters. Mike Brown turned Kobe, Bynum, Pau into a worse offensive trio than Phil did.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-03-2012, 01:15 AM
Let me put it as succinctly as I can. A lower PER does not always imply a lesser performance, particularly IF the efficiency at which the player played with was significantly higher than the loss in usage would dictate.

There is no exact science behind this mind you, usage vs efficiency is a tricky subject that gets more complex with more analysis, but we have WinShares and PER for a reason, they provide a stark contrast in how they favor those 2 sides of the argument. Simply put, the better combination of the 2 a player has, the more likely it is the player was being optimized, particularly if his team is actually winning more games than before.

Dean Oliver has a basic rule of thumb for projecting efficiency, though again its not an exact science, basically for every loss in usage you should expect an uptick in efficiency in a 1:1.5 ratio. Thats just a guideline but every player has his own skill curve.

You get a better picture of that players skill curve over time and observing the difference in roles.


Ill take you back to a debate I had with Laker fans back when Ariza was exchanged for Artest. I argued that despite Artest having a reputation as a better offensive player, that his addition would actually make the Lakers worse offensively.

This was because he had never displayed an ability to be as efficient as Ariza was, and his expected improvement would be minimal. I entertained the idea that he could somehow make the offense better in spite of his (lack of) efficiency IF he made others more efficient (he did not). As it turned out his Offensive RTG only improved 2PTS while accounting for roughly the same amount of offense as Ariza had the year prior and the Lakers offense suffered because they replaced an efficient role player for an inefficient volume scorer who could no longer chuck to his hearts content because it would take away from Kobes (the teams) game.

Where Artest value comes in his ability to maintain a mediocre efficiency level despite taking on a greater role in the offense. Thats why if your building an offense around someone, Artest would be the better OFFENSIVE choice. If your building around a greater threat, the role player who is accustomed to the role would be better.

You could argue Kobe made Artest worse but it was due to a redundant skillset and it was in the teams best interest. Is it right to blame Kobe in this situation? Do we fault Artest for not having a game that can adapt to a superior player? If you do then I can get behind alot of the players you listed that suffered with Bron, but many of them didnt. Some of them played better (As Odom did with Kobe IMO), and some of them were just injured or already declining.

Again, I do think Kobe is underrated in this regard and I do think hes better than Bron at making his teammates better. But I dont like many of the example you cite.

See, I knew you had more up your sleeve. lol. Stop sandbagging on me. :) Like I said in the other thread, you are way more advanced than I am at looking at stats. And you know more about statistical output than pretty much everyone here. I wanted you to give me some of the stats you would look at to quantify who does what for who. This post answered all that and more. Thanks

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-03-2012, 01:23 AM
Oh and coaching still matters. Mike Brown turned Kobe, Bynum, Pau into a worse offensive trio than Phil did.

That is what I argued earlier. Its not all Lebrons fault. His coaches fall in love with what he can do so much, they run a game plan that ask him to play as he does, and subsequently ask the other players to be catch and shoot players or screen setters. The Lakers played in the Cavs system somewhat, and we seen all the other players have some of the worse years of their career. I think teams should use the regular season to get their role players more involved in creating for themselves and others. They dont have a chance at doing it as good as Lebron does, but you sometimes have to take the bumps and bruises that go along with allowing them to have a greater role. So when the playoffs come and you face better defensive teams that can somewhat slow Lebron, these role players have had experience in getting their own. Instead of just waiting until Lebron can get going like he has all season. Sometimes, that time never comes.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-03-2012, 01:26 AM
I explained the examples you listed as best I could and pointed out flaws in your methods.

I do think Kobe is better at making players better but I also admitted every time I tried to quantify this effect my nose started bleeding. Not quite with those words but alot gos into play, and alot of stats you underscore or simply ignore.


Take Lamar Odom for example, would you say he played better with Wade or his first year with Kobe?

His PER dropped from 18.5 to 17.3. His PTS, ASSISTS, STL all dropped.


BUT his overall efficiency improved. Isnt that the point? Isnt the main goal to make your players bottom line more conducive to winning basketball?

You know I am going to sig that right? I have the great Chronz agreeing with me, so I think I want to flaunt that around.

Chronz
06-03-2012, 01:26 AM
That was what I asked you in that other thread. You never got back to me to I just went with what my eyes saw.
My bads but all I saw was that you didnt really respond to my claims, I was hoping for a statistical exchange, I never did get back to answering some of your questions tho.



I will be honest, I dont usually have a lot of time to delve into every stat, so I am guilty of the letting the PER be my guide. When the PER, seem close, then I move on to the next stats to see which year was really better. And from what I saw, Andy V has played better in the limited games without Lebron than he ever did with him.

I try to look at how the player played before and after along with how he performed with him on/off the court. Andy V played worse the year after Bron and he was more effective with him on the court in the years they played alongside each other. That doesnt paint the picture of someone Bron is making worse.



His PER was .2% higher, so I looked at the other stats and seen he had a way highet ast%, stl%, and turned the ball over much less.
His PER was HIGHER. So you look at ways to discredit what its telling you without valuing usage/efficiency? Whats the point in using PER if your not going to use it as a guideline as a culmination of those other stats? And why ignore WinShares period? Why put an emphasis on stl% if you know the player was in a better defensive scheme anyways? Looking at turnovers and fg% are evident in their efficiency, no need to isolate them when you can see the end result.


His advanced stats roughly stayed the same except for his offensive and defensive rating. But that is attributed to being on the floor with a player like Lebron.
What? Of course its a result of playing with Bron, isnt that the very thing your trying to measure? Can you explain this bit to me, I dont think you understand Off.RTG.


So I looked at his per 36 minutes and seen that he was a little better with the Bucks. Their may have been a slight improvement, but nothing that says "Lebron turned this players career around"

Well its definitely a sign that he had his BEST year with Bron, thats why my ONLY complaint was that your misleading people with your claims.


His ts% goes up, just like almost every other player with Bron, but as I stated before, that is not the only aspect of the game. A higher usage% just means he had a bigger part in the offense.

I dont see what your getting at here. All stats mean a higher/lower role in something. It just so happens that scoring more and doing it more effectively is the most important aspect. Thats why when you see a players PER increase alongside an increase in WinShares, its pretty hard to convince someone that he played worse.


I did not ignore yours. I did not agree with what you provided. I know you have more as to why you believed I was wrong. But you never elaborated. I cant take "false" as a reason to change my opinion.
I gave my opinion just as you did, I explained alot more in most of those breakdowns.

Chronz
06-03-2012, 01:38 AM
You know I am going to sig that right? I have the great Chronz agreeing with me, so I think I want to flaunt that around.

Im going to sig this just as soon as I tire of the dymez comment.

Seriously tho, Ive always wanted to study this trend but I never finish ANY project I begin. The work wears on me. My first thread at Clublakers was called the Kobe effect, in it I explained the tendency of players to play better with Kobe despite a loss in scoring rate.

Chronz
06-03-2012, 01:47 AM
That is what I argued earlier. Its not all Lebrons fault. His coaches fall in love with what he can do so much, they run a game plan that ask him to play as he does, and subsequently ask the other players to be catch and shoot players or screen setters. The Lakers played in the Cavs system somewhat, and we seen all the other players have some of the worse years of their career. I think teams should use the regular season to get their role players more involved in creating for themselves and others. They dont have a chance at doing it as good as Lebron does, but you sometimes have to take the bumps and bruises that go along with allowing them to have a greater role. So when the playoffs come and you face better defensive teams that can somewhat slow Lebron, these role players have had experience in getting their own. Instead of just waiting until Lebron can get going like he has all season. Sometimes, that time never comes.
Gilbert Arenas hinted at this once, he said Brown needs to unleash the shackles on the teams pace of play, that if you give the team more possessions to work with, the more involved Hughes (and later Antawn) would get. He cited how all of them were averaging 20+ because they got to run.

I think he oversimplified things but I do agree Brown lacked imagination.

JC_
06-03-2012, 01:48 AM
DING DING DING! You get it. Lebron is a better player than Kobe. His team got to the finals on Lebrons talent alone. That is all I have been saying. He needs to get his teammates to step up like they have shown they could produce in the past. Kobe may be a dick, but maybe that is why his teammates produce better with him, than they did on other teams. Accountability. He does not let anything slide. He is not there to be your friend. I cant say thats the only reason that he gets the best out of his teammates, its really just a theory. But the stats show that he does get the best out of them. And we all know it is not because he is a great facilitator.

He does make his teammates better though.

Take Lebron off his teams and they suck for the most part. He takes his teammates and gives them a chance to play at the highest level. Some of them might put up good numbers playing on a team that doesn't make the playoffs but when he's there he makes the team a contender. He doesn't intimidate teammates the way Kobe does but his actions when he steps on the floor speak loud and clear.

Call me crazy but if Lebron had the teams that Kobe has had he would be swimming in rings.

sunsfan88
06-03-2012, 01:56 AM
But Kobe has shown he can make his teammates better. That may be why his teams win rings even though as you say he is a "selfish ball hog, stat padder, whiner, chucker, and uncoachable".

Shaq was great before he played with Kobe, but as soon as Kobe played big minutes, Shaq had the best 4 years of his career
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealsh01.html

Pau Gasol never played better since he came to the Lakers
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gasolpa01.html

Derek Fisher had the best year of his career in 07/08 when he came back to the Lakers after playing with GS and Utah. That was at age 33.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/fishede01.html

Lamar Odom had his best years along Kobe and the best year of his career at age 31 last year. And down right fell off the map after he was not playing with Kobe. I wonder why he didnt jump at the chance to leave with Kobe being such a bad teammate. :rolleyes:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/odomla01.html

Sasha Vujacic best year in 07/08 with Kobe. Made Sasha look like he deserved 6 million dollars a year. Where is he now?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/v/vujacsa01.html

Smush Parkers only 2 years worth mentioning were with the Lakers. Look at every other year of his career. Pathetic. But next to that ball hog, he actually stepped his game up.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/parkesm01.html

Kwame Brown, actually played worse with Kobe.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/brownkw01.html

Bynum has only played with Kobe but he is developing drastically even though Kobe sucks at getting him the ball ;)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bynuman01.html

Shannon Browns best years of his career were with the Lakers
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/brownsh01.html

Jordan Farmar has played better with the Nets
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/farmajo01.html

Trevor Ariza wishes he could play next to that selfish player again.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/arizatr01.html

Matt Barnes had the best year of his career this last year
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/barnema02.html

Maybe Lebron should be more of a dick and hold people accountable :confused:
He may get more out of them.
See I disagree. In every comment for all those players you say "they wish they can play with Kobe again" but I think the truth is they wish they can be coached under Phil Jackson again.

Guys like Gasol, Ariza, Odom, Fisher were all utilized better by Phil Jackson than their previous and current coaches.

Kobe does pass and defer sometimes....5 times in his career he's probably done it...and guess what happened those 5 times that he did it? 5 rings (just so no other morons flame me, I am being hypocritical here) If Kobe had would have passed and deferred accordingly, then the Lakers would have won a title every year they had Shaq and Kobe and then Gasol and Kobe.

But I agree that LeBron does need to be a douche at times and needs to get in the face of Chalmers, Wade etc when their shooting ice cold yet will keep shooting it instead of driving it to the rim.

And who do you think is better at making his teammates better? Kobe or LeBron?

Oh and are you Brown had his best season with the Lakers? I haven't checked the stats but he had a really good season with us this past season so if he had an even better season with the Lakers...then wow.

Still sore that Nash could never win a title and still sore about the 2010 WCF eh? :)
Oh good burn! But as to your question, yes I am still very upset that the Lakers needed a lucky Artest put back at the buzzer to beat the Suns who weren't even projected to be in the playoffs. :p

BlinkManJan02
06-03-2012, 02:59 AM
I was telling my friends last night im back on the Lebron bandwagon. I hated him and the Heat an unhealthy amount last year and up until now. At this point why still hate him? He plays his *** off, is fun to watch and plays great defense.

I'm sort of on the same boat. I'm not cheering for the Heat but I don't hate them like I used to. LeBron is getting more respectable and less arrogant it seems.

amos1er
06-03-2012, 05:03 AM
Oh and coaching still matters. Mike Brown turned Kobe, Bynum, Pau into a worse offensive trio than Phil did.

Totally agree. I feel that Kobe does get more out of his teammates than Lebron, but has done so only under Phil Jackson.

I will admit that Lebron is a beast and is a better all around player than Kobe. He is a better rebounder and passer and can still efficiently score the ball at the same time while maintaining a good winning percentage. Kobe is better off the dribble, one on one, and in isolation which is why he has had games where he can score 81 and 62 in three quarters. Basically, Lebron's scoring celling is not a high as Kobe's which is why he has not been as effective at taking a game over in the 4th on a lone offensive effort like Kobe. By the same token, Kobe cannot be a do it all guy like Lebron while being effective at winning games. Lebron can carry a bigger load throughout the game because of his more versatile skill set of being able to be the guy that makes the team go.

Only problem with Lebron is he is doing too much. Its like overkill, he doesn't need to provide such huge stats in order to win. I'm sure you have heard the expression, less is more and in Lebron's case it would pay dividends. If he let his support players do more of what they were good at and concentrated on adapting his game to what is needed to win in the moment, rather than being the one to carry the full load, he wouldn't be out of gas in crunch time. If he could get more out of his teammates and take the load off him self, and be able to have the necessary stamina to do more in crunch time. When he is able to accomplish this, then he will win rings.

Problem is (as you stated), coaching matters and he needs a better coach who is able to successfully manage ego's. Managing ego's is one of the most important things in a coach IMO. Look at the difference in Kobe with Mike Brown as the head coach. He just couldn't control him. Kobe hogged the ball too much and it really cost the Lakers. He would have never done that under Phil...with the exception being the 05-06 season, where he did have a green light to do what he wanted, but did it more in the flow of the offense. Lebron has never had a coach that was able to manage ego's. Put Phil Jackson on the Heat, and they could possibly win not one, not two...and so on. I don't believe that the Heat can win it all under Spolstra. Not with Lebron's style of stat basketball. Add Phil Jackson to the equation and you will see a whole new Lebron that will actually listen and respect his coach. His advanced stats would take a hit for sure, but I guarantee that Phil Jackson coaching the Heat, it's a guarantee they at least one ring.

Lebron and Kobe are different players...they have different strengths and weaknesses. People can argue all day at who they think is better individually and both sides would have very valid arguments. But the fact remains that until Lebron can prove that his strengths and style of play can translate into winning his team a championship, he will never get out of Kobe's shadow IMO. However, I believe that Under Phil Jackson or a coach of his caliber, Lebron could make things interesting.

knicks4life33
06-03-2012, 10:13 AM
why is lebron in these education commercials. the dude didn't even go to college and granted in high school he was so hyped and popular he prob got a pass on his hw and tests from teachers. kinda makes me think when you see players who skipped college to go straight to the nba in education commercials . Granted the commercial is not to drop out of HIGH SCHOOL but have someone else do the commercial .

Blitzbolt
06-03-2012, 10:17 AM
why is lebron in these education commercials. the dude didn't even go to college and granted in high school he was so hyped and popular he prob got a pass on his hw and tests from teachers. kinda makes me think when you see players who skipped college to go straight to the nba in education commercials . Granted the commercial is not to drop out of HIGH SCHOOL but have someone else do the commercial .

I agree Kobe should do it.......o wait nvm.

basketfan4life
06-03-2012, 04:01 PM
I agree Kobe should do it.......o wait nvm.

See, this is the epitom of why i hate here sometimes.

HesterJordan23
06-03-2012, 06:23 PM
why is lebron in these education commercials. the dude didn't even go to college and granted in high school he was so hyped and popular he prob got a pass on his hw and tests from teachers. kinda makes me think when you see players who skipped college to go straight to the nba in education commercials . Granted the commercial is not to drop out of HIGH SCHOOL but have someone else do the commercial .

hes just a face for that organization.. but i agree with you

i know this kid who was our star qb for our high school for the 4 straight years i went there and he seriously never did a thing through school and i remember in our freshman course that we had to choose our classes and i was behind him turning mine in and the counselor said "no problem honey weve got you all covered" kid never did a thing and is the 2nd string qb at osu

sunsfan88
06-03-2012, 06:31 PM
why is lebron in these education commercials. the dude didn't even go to college and granted in high school he was so hyped and popular he prob got a pass on his hw and tests from teachers. kinda makes me think when you see players who skipped college to go straight to the nba in education commercials . Granted the commercial is not to drop out of HIGH SCHOOL but have someone else do the commercial .


I agree Kobe should do it.......o wait nvm.

Would have been better if you said Amare instead of Kobe since he's a Knick fan and all.

KB-Pau-DH2012
06-03-2012, 06:36 PM
I agree Kobe should do it.......o wait nvm.

He sure as hell sounds a lot more educated, literate and eloquent than 90% of the black players in the league. Doesn't sound like a thug or saying the words "Ya know, like ya know, we played hard man, we wuz just aggresive and all, ya know?!!?!!?" every 10 seconds.

Vinny642
06-03-2012, 07:12 PM
I actually like Lebron now, I still hate the Heat but I got a lot more respect for Lebron. Wade can suck a dick and die tho ;P

RLundi
06-03-2012, 07:40 PM
Not once did I mention per game averages. Only an idiot would argue that. The links I posted that showed his teammates production before and after, should only have their advanced stats looked at. I am only looking at their overall efficiency as in their PER, TS%, EFG% TRB%, AST%, STL%,BLK% and so on and so forth. Those are the numbers that have severely declined. Especially in Bosh's case.


Please explain how LeBron is going to put his teammates in a better position to have a higher assist, steal, rebounding and block percentages? How on earth does that qualify as making your teammates better? That's completely unreasonable and your rationale of what qualifies as making teammates better is absurdly high and unrealistic.

Someone like Rajon Rondo would undoubtedly make his teammates better and put them in positions to score more efficiently and increase their effective field goal percentage. Rondo is a terrific passer, rebounder and defender at his position. If his teammates' assist, rebound and steal rates dipped but he gave them much more opportunities to score, would that mean he is ultimately hurting them? No, that would be a ridiculous assumption. Saying LeBron doesn't make his teammates better is as ridiculous. The advanced statistics show that for the most part, his teammates' eFG% increased dramatically in Cleveland and tapered off significantly once he left. You wanted me to show how much a difference there was from LeBron's last season with his teammates and their first without him? Here you go:

Mo Williams
09-10 .535 eFG
10-11 .453 eFG

Antawn Jamison
09-10 .525 eFG
10-11 .479 eFG

Anthony Parker
09-10 .547 eFG
10-11 .476 eFG

JJ Hickson
09-10 .554 eFG
10-11 .458 eFG

Daniel Gibson
09-10 .599 eFG
10-11 .489 eFG

All these players' eFG dropped by staggering levels. You honestly think that's just a coincidence? It isn't. A player who makes his teammates better is going to put them in a better position to score-- LeBron did that to the scrubs in Cleveland. To argue otherwise is egregiously inaccurate.