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rapsjaysfan88
06-01-2012, 10:07 PM
I'm not going to go on a rant about how brutal the pen has been because well the stats speak for themselves. Last in almost ever category. Any suggestion on arms in the system who can fill some spots or some trades that could be made to get some good arms.

mtf
06-02-2012, 01:41 PM
I've never liked Jason Frasor, and I don't understand why he was brought back this off-season other than sentimentality. I also thought Evan Crawford was awful. I'd really like to see Chad Beck get a shot, that's my only suggestion.

Toxeryll
06-02-2012, 08:33 PM
pretty sure AA traded for Frasor cuz of his wife

rapsjaysfan88
06-02-2012, 10:02 PM
pretty sure AA traded for Frasor cuz of his wife

Ya she's a nice looking girl

mtf
06-03-2012, 08:49 AM
Ya she's a nice looking girl

Buck Martinez certainly thought so. Those creepy awkward glances while interviewing her were memorable.

Sanyo
06-03-2012, 10:38 AM
Pens been overworked lately. Cordero has looked ok the last few games despite his early troubles. You have guys like Beck down in the pen who should get a chance.

Its ironic that the pen was suppose to be the Jays strength and ultimately its been their biggest weakness...this is why people watch baseball, its unpredictable.

wamco
06-03-2012, 05:21 PM
not ironic, it's relief pitchers. They are "pond scum" (j. frasor)

ah nuts
06-03-2012, 08:28 PM
Pens been overworked lately. Cordero has looked ok the last few games despite his early troubles. You have guys like Beck down in the pen who should get a chance.

Its ironic that the pen was suppose to be the Jays strength and ultimately its been their biggest weakness...this is why people watch baseball, its unpredictable.

the pen being the most unpredcitable

nithanyo
06-04-2012, 12:49 AM
THe pen goes where the starting pitching goes. You get you're starters to give you 7 or 8 innings, the pen will be rested and pitch better.

If the starters don't last long your relief pitching will suck. It goes hand in hand

Fix the starters and the relief pitching will get better on its own. Especially when Santos comes back

DocJayzSpikx
06-04-2012, 01:03 AM
THe pen goes where the starting pitching goes. You get you're starters to give you 7 or 8 innings, the pen will be rested and pitch better.

If the starters don't last long your relief pitching will suck. It goes hand in hand

Fix the starters and the relief pitching will get better on its own. Especially when Santos comes back

Well said, couldn't have said it better. Cordero has looked ok recently, too bad Crawford hasn't been able to stick, Coello looked decent

Toxeryll
06-04-2012, 01:33 AM
Well said, couldn't have said it better. Cordero has looked ok recently, too bad Crawford hasn't been able to stick, Coello looked decent

i thought coello was ****. i hope he doesnt stick

mtf
06-04-2012, 05:25 AM
Its ironic that the pen was suppose to be the Jays strength and ultimately its been their biggest weakness...

The whole narrative that the bullpen was supposed to be the strength of the organization was merely propaganda by the Blue Jays to try to divert attention away from their lack of any meaningful acquisitions in the off-season.

At the time, there were many fans who hadn't let their frustrations regarding Prince Fielder and/or Yu Darvish yet subside. Spring training success helped provide another distraction to help smooth over things on the PR side for those who forget easily.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-04-2012, 05:42 AM
We need BJ Ryan again!

jrice9
06-04-2012, 07:45 AM
The Santos injury has been the biggest reason the bullpen has sicked.

Darren Oliver has been great though

bartron_44
06-04-2012, 08:37 AM
I don't really understand this rant/thread..

It sucks Perez collapsed in game 1 of the Boston series, but it didn't really cost us as we were losing 3-1 before the 7th inning even began, and only scored 1 more run...so I wouldn't blame that game on the bullpen.

If Colby Rasmus doesn't drop that ball in the first inning of game 2 (which somehow was called a hit) and give Boston 2 extra runs in the 2nd inning, that is an entirely different ballgame...so I wouldn't blame that loss on the bullpen either.

Janssen- fantastic since being named closer

Cordero- has only been scored on once in his last 12 appearances, and that didn't end up costing us as Janssen saved the day in Baltimore..

Oliver- has an ERA of 1.93 for the season and an ERA of 0.90 in May.

Perez- left handers are hitting just .167 against him and his ERA was 2.45 this year before giving up 3 runs the other night. He has only been scored upon 4 times in 23 appearances.

Once Santos gets back to form, that should be 5 solid arms for Farrell to use. Our bullpen is coming around. We just ran into a red hot Boston team that has the second best offense in baseball and hits doubles like its going out of style to go with the HR's.

The only bullpen moves I would like to see would be Beck for Coello, and either Joel Carreno or Brett Cecil for Jesse Chavez.

Twitchy
06-04-2012, 10:05 AM
The whole narrative that the bullpen was supposed to be the strength of the organization was merely propaganda by the Blue Jays to try to divert attention away from their lack of any meaningful acquisitions in the off-season.

At the time, there were many fans who hadn't let their frustrations regarding Prince Fielder and/or Yu Darvish yet subside. Spring training success helped provide another distraction to help smooth over things on the PR side for those who forget easily.

I have to disagree. Santos is a fantastic reliever, as is Janssen. Oliver and Frasor are pretty good at the back end too. The other 3 weren't expected to be great, but they weren't supposed to pitch in high leverage spots.

That's not a bad group of relievers. Janssen/Oliver have been fantastic, Frasor had a couple bad outings and Santos is on the D/L. But at least someone like Perez did well to offset things like that.

But there's no question it's been horrible to this point. On paper though, it should have been much better.

mtf
06-04-2012, 10:14 AM
I have to disagree. Santos is a fantastic reliever, as is Janssen. Oliver and Frasor are pretty good at the back end too. The other 3 weren't expected to be great, but they weren't supposed to pitch in high leverage spots.

That's not a bad group of relievers. Janssen/Oliver have been fantastic, Frasor had a couple bad outings and Santos is on the D/L. But at least someone like Perez did well to offset things like that.

But there's no question it's been horrible to this point. On paper though, it should have been much better.

I agree that it looked to be an improved bullpen (although we had heard the same thing the year before about Francisco, Rauch and Dotel coming in). My point was merely that the Blue Jays tried to sell fans on the bullpen to make them forget about the lack of any acquisitions outside of the bench & bullpen.

I've never liked Frasor, whether it was his previous tour of duty with the team or the current one. I like Janssen, Oliver and Perez and I'd love to see Chad Beck on the roster. I'm in wait-and-see mode with Santos of whom I've been skeptical since the trade was first announced, but I'm willing to be cautiously optimistic there. Despite those I just mentioned, a bullpen (generally speaking) is not going to get me excited about the team in general. I merely hope it's competent enough to not blow too many leads.

craigerlee
06-04-2012, 10:21 AM
I agree that it looked to be an improved bullpen (although we had heard the same thing the year before about Francisco, Rauch and Dotel coming in). My point was merely that the Blue Jays tried to sell fans on the bullpen to make them forget about the lack of any acquisitions outside of the bench & bullpen.

I still like Janssen, Oliver and Perez and I'd love to see Chad Beck on the roster. I'm in wait-and-see mode with Santos of whom I've been skeptical since the trade was first announced, but I'm willing to be cautiously optimistic there. Despite those I just mentioned, a bullpen (generally speaking) is not going to get me excited about the team in general. I merely hope it's competent enough to not blow too many leads.

Did you ever think that AA just legitimately tried to improve the bullpen and that it wasn't some conspiracy theory to take our minds off not acquiring a big name free agent. Is it not possible that 214M for 9 years of Prince Fielder or 111.7M for 6 years of Yu Darvish is just a ridiculous price to pay for those guys services and the Jays front office knew this.

Its not like he didn't try to acquire a big bat, it sounds very likely that they were in fact in on Beltran but he decided he didn't wanna DH or play on turf.

mtf
06-04-2012, 02:36 PM
Did you ever think that AA just legitimately tried to improve the bullpen and that it wasn't some conspiracy theory to take our minds off not acquiring a big name free agent.

Yes, in fact I acknowledged it. My point was that after rebuilding the bullpen for legitimate reasons, they then tried to spin attention to that bullpen and over-hype it to take negative opinions off of their lack of action for impact players.

craigerlee
06-04-2012, 04:44 PM
Yes, in fact I acknowledged it. My point was that after rebuilding the bullpen for legitimate reasons, they then tried to spin attention to that bullpen and over-hype it to take negative opinions off of their lack of action for impact players.

They're major offseason acquisition was the bullpen, what did you honestly expect them to promote. They're failed bid on Darvish? They're failed attempt to sign Beltran? Trades they tried but couldn't make? You don't sell tickets by telling the fans you had an uneventful offseason, you promote what you got. Of course I would of liked them to have a better offseason, but the only guys who were really worth the money in the offseason that Jays could of used were IMO were Edwin Jackson and Carlos Beltran and I have no clue whether they would of came to Toronto.

mtf
06-05-2012, 07:14 AM
They're major offseason acquisition was the bullpen, what did you honestly expect them to promote. They're failed bid on Darvish? They're failed attempt to sign Beltran? Trades they tried but couldn't make? You don't sell tickets by telling the fans you had an uneventful offseason, you promote what you got.

Well first of all, "they're" means "they are". In this context you wanted to use "their". I'm not trying to criticize you, I'm just trying to help you for future reference. If you choose to ignore it, so be it.

To address your argument, I would say that they didn't need to use the bullpen as a diversionary tactic from a PR perspective. Add what they like, but don't make it out to be some amazing feat of general managing. Shi Davidi, and other Rogers Blue Jays spokesmen, are largely responsible for this. Bullpens, even with the same players as a previous season, can have drastically different results than the previous year. Trying to mislead fans into thinking the bullpen was something it was not is hardly admirable. Why not also get the fans excited about Ben Francisco and Mike McCoy... more non-starters.


Of course I would of liked them to have a better offseason, but the only guys who were really worth the money in the offseason that Jays could of used were IMO were Edwin Jackson and Carlos Beltran and I have no clue whether they would of came to Toronto.

Well, I guess if you've already concluded there were only 2 possible players to make Toronto better, either via trade or free agency, then I suppose there's likely very little we will be able to agree upon. I saw multiple reports referencing players who were being shopped, as well as the potential free agents who were available.

Alex Anthopoulos had done very well in his first 2 years, building up the franchise with very little to work with initially. I am not saying he should be fired for his inaction this off-season, but I do think it's worth noting his failures if you want to legitimize your praise of his success'.

wamco
06-05-2012, 07:50 AM
beltran said he wanted to play for a winner

craigerlee
06-05-2012, 08:58 AM
Well first of all, "they're" means "they are". In this context you wanted to use "their". I'm not trying to criticize you, I'm just trying to help you for future reference. If you choose to ignore it, so be it.

To address your argument, I would say that they didn't need to use the bullpen as a diversionary tactic from a PR perspective. Add what they like, but don't make it out to be some amazing feat of general managing. Shi Davidi, and other Rogers Blue Jays spokesmen, are largely responsible for this. Bullpens, even with the same players as a previous season, can have drastically different results than the previous year. Trying to mislead fans into thinking the bullpen was something it was not is hardly admirable. Why not also get the fans excited about Ben Francisco and Mike McCoy... more non-starters.



Well, I guess if you've already concluded there were only 2 possible players to make Toronto better, either via trade or free agency, then I suppose there's likely very little we will be able to agree upon. I saw multiple reports referencing players who were being shopped, as well as the potential free agents who were available.

Alex Anthopoulos had done very well in his first 2 years, building up the franchise with very little to work with initially. I am not saying he should be fired for his inaction this off-season, but I do think it's worth noting his failures if you want to legitimize your praise of his success'.

Your making the assumption that the bullpen was expected to be overrated. Pretty sure we expected more from Santos and a little more from Cordero, and if that happened pretty sure this bullpen would look pretty good right now.

I'm glad you read multiple reports, but tell me which players actually got traded that would of made this team better? Surely the Jays aren't the only team that can pull triggers on trades? Latos and Gio are the only guys that were traded that I think could of really helped the Jays, and you have to admit the haul of prospects those teams received would of been tough to match and probably not all that worth it.

I just don't see the need to ***** about Rogers not spending money or Blue Jays not doing anything when a likely scenario was that they couldn't do anything without grossly overpaying.

LuckyLuke2
06-05-2012, 09:17 AM
Too early to panic here. The pen has been used quite a bit the last few weeks especially when on the road.

Overall it's not as big a concern as some are making it out to be. Janssen has been good as the closer. Santos will be back soon. Perez has been the best reliever so far, Oliver has been very good.

The rest have struggled a bit. Frasor a bit, Cordero a lot but he's settling down. Villanueva could be better too. But not every guy out of the pen will dominate. Comes and goes.

mtf
06-05-2012, 11:49 AM
Your making the assumption that the bullpen was expected to be overrated. Pretty sure we expected more from Santos and a little more from Cordero, and if that happened pretty sure this bullpen would look pretty good right now.

I don't know how something can be expected to be overrated. Being overrated is the result of expectations being too high. Also, I wasn't making any assumptions, despite your depiction of this conversation as such. I was merely noting that after comprising a bullpen that they were satisfied with, the decided to try to market it as much more vital to the teams success than it was ever going to be. They used it as a diversion to cover up the disappointment of much of the fan base regarding the inaction on more important positions on the roster.


I'm glad you read multiple reports,

Well thank you for informing me of your pleasure in the knowledge that I am informed.


but tell me which players actually got traded that would of made this team better?

Sure. Here's a few names that were available via free agency or trade that was made public. Some turned out better than others. Pitchers: Mat Latos, Gio Gonzalez, Edwin Jackson, CJ Wilson, Mark Buehrle, Bartolo Colon, Matt Garza, Trevor Cahill. Position Players: Prince Fielder, Albert Pujols, Yoenis Cespedes, Carlos Pena, Hanley Ramirez, Jose Reyes, Carlos Beltran.


Surely the Jays aren't the only team that can pull triggers on trades? Latos and Gio are the only guys that were traded that I think could of really helped the Jays, and you have to admit the haul of prospects those teams received would of been tough to match and probably not all that worth it.

We don't know what the cost is for any particular player via trade, but Anthopoulos himself has said that one of the benefit of prospects is that they are trade currency. Just looking at Triple-A alone, Hechavarria, Gose and D'Arnaud are all very close to being ready to break into the majors, but Arencibia, Rasmus and Escobar are all blocking them (to varying degrees). Regardless, there's trade bait there either with the blocker or the blocked player.


I just don't see the need to ***** about Rogers not spending money or Blue Jays not doing anything when a likely scenario was that they couldn't do anything without grossly overpaying.

Well, you can perceive it as them likely not being able to do anything if you wish. However, I'm well within reason to criticize them for being conservative to a fault. Patience is often praised, because no one wants to appear trigger happy. However, waiting too long to take action can also be a potential issue. Signing a Prince Fielder, as just one example, would have greatly impacted this offense for many years to come. Instead, we're seeing a platoon of David Cooper, Edwin Encarnacion and Adam Lind occupy the position this year with no promising prospects coming at that position. Fielder alone would have added a large degree of depth to the line-up.

craigerlee
06-05-2012, 01:53 PM
I don't know how something can be expected to be overrated. Being overrated is the result of expectations being too high. Also, I wasn't making any assumptions, despite your depiction of this conversation as such. I was merely noting that after comprising a bullpen that they were satisfied with, the decided to try to market it as much more vital to the teams success than it was ever going to be. They used it as a diversion to cover up the disappointment of much of the fan base regarding the inaction on more important positions on the roster.

I don't think its fair to say that they are overrated though, Santos hasn't really pitched at all. Had Santos played like he did last year I think this bullpen performs significantly better, kinda like how we expected them to play. I really didn't find that they used it to cover up the fact they couldn't/didn't land an impact bat or starter, but I guess we differ there.


Sure. Here's a few names that were available via free agency or trade that was made public. Some turned out better than others. Pitchers: Mat Latos, Gio Gonzalez, Edwin Jackson, CJ Wilson, Mark Buehrle, Bartolo Colon, Matt Garza, Trevor Cahill. Position Players: Prince Fielder, Albert Pujols, Yoenis Cespedes, Carlos Pena, Hanley Ramirez, Jose Reyes, Carlos Beltran.

Well Pujols, Fielder, Buehrle, Reyes, and Wilson are probably not the kinda deals you wanna make. Obviously they help in the short term but they probably hurt a lot more in the long term. Paying a 1B man for probably 5 years of decline is never a good idea, neither is giving 30 year old pitchers 5 year deals or often injured shortstops long term deals.



We don't know what the cost is for any particular player via trade, but Anthopoulos himself has said that one of the benefit of prospects is that they are trade currency. Just looking at Triple-A alone, Hechavarria, Gose and D'Arnaud are all very close to being ready to break into the majors, but Arencibia, Rasmus and Escobar are all blocking them (to varying degrees). Regardless, there's trade bait there either with the blocker or the blocked player.

Well not sure what you were gonna trade Hechavarria for in the offseason considering his bat was so awful. Also I don't see how Rasmus is blocking Gose considering Bautista probably shouldn't be starting in RF for that much longer and the rotating carousel of left fielders we've gone through already. Also pretty sure D'Arnaud wasn't deemed ready to start at C to begin the season either, so don't know how good of a move it would be to trade your starting catcher in the offseason.


Well, you can perceive it as them likely not being able to do anything if you wish. However, I'm well within reason to criticize them for being conservative to a fault. Patience is often praised, because no one wants to appear trigger happy. However, waiting too long to take action can also be a potential issue. Signing a Prince Fielder, as just one example, would have greatly impacted this offense for many years to come. Instead, we're seeing a platoon of David Cooper, Edwin Encarnacion and Adam Lind occupy the position this year with no promising prospects coming at that position. Fielder alone would have added a large degree of depth to the line-up.

Considering Prince Fielder hasn't really impacted the Tigers record all that much, I don't know how you can say with such confidence that he would have such a huge impact on ours. Also just watching Bautista play RF, I have zero confidence that he can continue to play there for too many more years, so dropping 214M over 9 years on a guy who has zero defensive flexibility just doesn't seem like the right move.

bartron_44
06-06-2012, 01:13 PM
Bullpen looks back on track over the past 2 games...If we can keep getting 7+ like Hutch and Ricky just gave us to keep them fresh,they should get into a nice groove.