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spreadeagle
05-24-2012, 02:08 PM
Just Announced - 2011-12 All-NBA First Team: @KingJames, @KDTrey5, @DwightHoward, @CP3 & Kobe Bryant.

@NBA: 2011-12 All-NBA Second Team: @KevinLove, @BlakeGriffin, @tp9network "Tony Parker", @RussWest44 & Andrew Bynum.

https://twitter.com/#!/NBAonESPN

lakers24win
05-24-2012, 02:13 PM
List looks okay

* waits for Kobe haters to whine about Kobe making 1st team* ... :hide:

Longhornfan1234
05-24-2012, 02:18 PM
1st team (CP3) and 2nd Team (Griffin) and they still can't win a game against the Spurs. Cue the CP3 apologists...

B'sCeltsPatsSox
05-24-2012, 02:19 PM
Griffin made second team and Kobe made the first team?

Third team...

Chris Mannix ‏@ChrisMannixSI
All-NBA Third Team: Rajon Rondo, Dwyane Wade, Tyson Chandler, Dirk Nowitzki, Carmelo Anthony

The ridiculous votes...
Howard Beck ‏@HowardBeckNYT
And, onto the odd stray votes for All-NBA: David Lee, Marcin Gortat, DeMarcus Cousins, Paul Millsap, Serge Ibaka, Joakim Noah, Monta Ellis

SaimuKala
05-24-2012, 02:21 PM
3rd team is Rondo Wade Melo Dirk and Chandler

I wanted timmy to get the 3rd center spot but Chandler is ok

naps
05-24-2012, 02:25 PM
:laugh2: My grandma could make better all NBA teams and all NBA defensive teams. These teams have become ****ing jokes!

Longhornfan1234
05-24-2012, 02:27 PM
:laugh2: My grandma could make better all NBA teams and all NBA defensive teams. These teams have become ****ing jokes!




How so? Where are your facts?

ThunderousDemon
05-24-2012, 02:28 PM
Here they come, starting with Naps, what a surprise.

Hawkeye15
05-24-2012, 02:29 PM
I have issues with them yet again. Kobe is not a 1st teamer this season, I honestly can't believe they are still giving him that honor. Griffin 2nd team? What?

They need to do these the second the regular season is over, instead of waiting so long, letting playoff basketball influence ****.

SaimuKala
05-24-2012, 02:30 PM
How so? Where are your facts?

Because Wade did not make the 1st team :laugh:

ThunderousDemon
05-24-2012, 02:30 PM
:laugh2: My grandma could make better all NBA teams and all NBA defensive teams. These teams have become ****ing jokes!

How so? Did your grandma play WNBA or is she just fan of NBA like the rest of us here on PSD?

I Rock Shaqs
05-24-2012, 02:31 PM
LOL @ the teams this year, just a popularity contest more than anything.

ThunderousDemon
05-24-2012, 02:31 PM
:laugh2: My grandma could make better all NBA teams and all NBA defensive teams. These teams have become ****ing jokes!

Wade didn't make first team, but your king did serf

Sox72
05-24-2012, 02:32 PM
List looks okay

* waits for Kobe haters to whine about Kobe making 1st team* ... :hide:

Well, you don't really think he's a first-teamer, do you?

Pakman
05-24-2012, 02:34 PM
I have issues with them yet again. Kobe is not a 1st teamer this season, I honestly can't believe they are still giving him that honor. Griffin 2nd team? What?

They need to do these the second the regular season is over, instead of waiting so long, letting playoff basketball influence ****.how so?kobe Finished 2nd in scoring and top 5 mvp voting. Carried his teams at times and was very important to his team more so than westbrook. He had a good year. You are just a classic "hater"

Hawkeye15
05-24-2012, 02:35 PM
Instead of calling out Kobe haters, Laker fans, please explain why Kobe actually belongs there this season. If you can't, then stop with the ridiculous comments, it makes you look like a complete homer.

naps
05-24-2012, 02:35 PM
Here they come, starting with Naps, what a surprise.

Exactly.

You would know where the problem is just like thieves know where the cops are.


How so? Did your grandma play WNBA or is she just fan of NBA like the rest of us here on PSD?

My grandma knows what's right and what's not.



Wade didn't make first team, but your king did serf

No. Kobe has NO case over TP or Westy. NONE.


I see you quoted one post of mine three times. How cute.

Hawkeye15
05-24-2012, 02:37 PM
how so?kobe Finished 2nd in scoring and top 5 mvp voting. Carried his teams at times and was very important to his team more so than westbrook. He had a good year. You are just a classic "hater"

I hope he finished 2nd in scoring with the amount of shots he took. He is winning awards off his name at this point, which is where I have the problem. Love, Parker, and Westbrook all had better seasons, Wade as well but he missed a bunch of time, so I understand.

HouRealCoach
05-24-2012, 02:37 PM
Teams look okay to me... Although I think Cousins should have gotten some love

Blitzbolt
05-24-2012, 02:38 PM
Griffin average like points in the playoffs second team my @$s.

Hawkeye15
05-24-2012, 02:38 PM
I have an even bigger problem with Griffin over Nowitzki or Wade as well as others.

macc
05-24-2012, 02:39 PM
You can't get to bent out of shape for who made 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Just being on one of the all nba teams is an accomplishment. Theres arguments for each player, whether you're looking at stats, team record, importance to the team...ect.

There is no clear cut team 1 team 2...ect. I'm happy to see Tony Parker get some love. The guy has been great since he got in the league and he has championship rings to back it up, yet people always rate outside the top 5 pg's most years. It's crazy to me.

Hawkeye15
05-24-2012, 02:39 PM
I swear Kobe will be retired, and the media won't have figured it out and he will get MVP votes, and make 3rd team all NBA.

Avenged
05-24-2012, 02:41 PM
Kobe & Bynum :dance:

ManRam
05-24-2012, 02:44 PM
Wade really got killed for missing time...wow. He had a great year, when he was playing. Tony's stock rose, deserveringly so, later on in the season to snatch the spot from Wade. I guess I can't have a beef with that.

Kobe was a lock to make first team, deserving or not. I give the slight edge to Westbrook...but Kobe is Kobe so yeah...

I guess, off the top of my head, I would have gone:

1. CP3-Westy-Durant-LeBron-Dwight
2. Kobe-Parker-Love-Griffin-Bynum

So not really any major qualms at all. Damn you LMA for getting hurt...because I hate having to put Blake on the second team ;)

-Kobe24-TJ19-
05-24-2012, 02:45 PM
1st team looks right

JordansBulls
05-24-2012, 02:46 PM
I have issues with them yet again. Kobe is not a 1st teamer this season, I honestly can't believe they are still giving him that honor. Griffin 2nd team? What?

They need to do these the second the regular season is over, instead of waiting so long, letting playoff basketball influence ****.

Yeah I dont get it either, Gasol led the team in Win Shares yet again and he isn't on either team. Bynum had a higher PER and Win Shares and was 2nd team while Kobe was 1st team.:confused:

The goods
05-24-2012, 02:49 PM
Kobe led the league in scoring for 99 percent of the season carried our team and is the best player on the team he deserves it people should be focusing on why Tim Duncan isn't on the first team instead of *****ing about Kobe.

Hawkeye15
05-24-2012, 02:49 PM
Yeah I dont get it either, Gasol led the team in Win Shares yet again and he isn't on either team. Bynum had a higher PER and Win Shares and was 2nd team while Kobe was 1st team.:confused:

It's the name. I have half the Wolves board telling me they wouldn't trade Williams, #18, Luke Ridnour, and Wes Johnson for Pau Gasol right now because he is washed up. Um, when your SG leads the league in shot attempts, and your moron coach goes to the less efficient Bynum literally twice as much, what kind of per game numbers do you expect?

Hawkeye15
05-24-2012, 02:51 PM
Kobe led the league in scoring for 99 percent of the season carried our team and is the best player on the team he deserves it people should be focusing on why Tim Duncan isn't on the first team instead of *****ing about Kobe.

No, people need to question the Kobe deal. He doesn't belong there.

Duncan is no longer getting the minutes or numbers to qualify for any NBA team. Don't let the playoffs skew your mind on all NBA teams.

Avenged
05-24-2012, 02:53 PM
Yeah I dont get it either, Gasol led the team in Win Shares yet again and he isn't on either team. Bynum had a higher PER and Win Shares and was 2nd team while Kobe was 1st team.:confused:

Do you want to put Bynum at SG or what?

Donuts365
05-24-2012, 02:55 PM
perfect list lmaoo are ppl getting butt hurt over kobe

BobbyHillSwag
05-24-2012, 02:57 PM
This **** is ********, kobe deserves first team more than wade deserves 3rd team. Wade shouldn't be close to a team, they should put refs in place of that loser, what a *****. Cant wait till wade comes to texas, Imma get joseph to assault his ***.

JordansBulls
05-24-2012, 03:01 PM
Do you want to put Bynum at SG or what?

Of course not, also it is 2 guards not PG and SG. Just the fact that Gasol wouldn't even touch either team but yet led the team in production how does his teammate make a 1st team is what I am getting at?

He wasn't even top 20 in Win Shares on the season.

Win Shares
1. LeBron James-MIA 14.5
2. Chris Paul-LAC 12.7
3. Kevin Durant-OKC 12.2
4. Kevin Love-MIN 10.0
5. Tyson Chandler-NYK 9.5
6. James Harden-OKC 9.3
7. Blake Griffin-LAC 9.2
8. Joakim Noah-CHI 9.0
9. Ryan Anderson-ORL 8.9
10. Pau Gasol-LAL 8.3
11. Marc Gasol-MEM 8.2
12. Andrew Bynum-LAL 8.0
13. Russell Westbrook-OKC 7.9
14. Paul Millsap-UTA 7.8
15. Dwight Howard-ORL 7.7
16. Dwyane Wade-MIA 7.7
17. Carlos Boozer-CHI 7.6
18. Marcin Gortat-PHO 7.6
19. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 7.6
20. Al Jefferson-UTA 7.5


Wasn't top 20 in WS/PER 48 minutes

1. LeBron James-MIA .298
2. Chris Paul-LAC .278
3. Kevin Durant-OKC .230
4. James Harden-OKC .230
5. Dwyane Wade-MIA .227
6. Joakim Noah-CHI .223
7. Kevin Love-MIN .223
8. Tyson Chandler-NYK .220
9. Ryan Anderson-ORL .219
10. Derrick Rose-CHI .211
11. Carlos Boozer-CHI .187
12. Ersan Ilyasova-MIL .185
13. Blake Griffin-LAC .185
14. Andrew Bynum-LAL .183
15. Paul Millsap-UTA .179
16. Dwight Howard-ORL .179
17. Kevin Garnett-BOS .178
18. Tony Parker-SAS .177
19. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL .175
20. Louis Williams-PHI .174


And was 16th in PER

Player Efficiency Rating
1. LeBron James-MIA 30.7
2. Chris Paul-LAC 27.0
3. Dwyane Wade-MIA 26.3
4. Kevin Durant-OKC 26.2
5. Kevin Love-MIN 25.4
6. Dwight Howard-ORL 24.2
7. Blake Griffin-LAC 23.4
8. Derrick Rose-CHI 23.0
9. Russell Westbrook-OKC 22.9
10. Andrew Bynum-LAL 22.9
11. Al Jefferson-UTA 22.8
12. LaMarcus Aldridge-POR 22.7
13. Tim Duncan-SAS 22.5
14. Greg Monroe-DET 22.0
15. Tony Parker-SAS 22.0
16. Kobe Bryant-LAL 21.9
17. Paul Millsap-UTA 21.8
18. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 21.7
19. DeMarcus Cousins-SAC 21.7
20. Nikola Pekovic-MIN

3iverson3
05-24-2012, 03:02 PM
That third team, to me, is better than the second!

THE GIPPER
05-24-2012, 03:05 PM
That third team, to me, is better than the second!

Yeah its really close lol

ManRam
05-24-2012, 03:05 PM
Look, I hate Blake...but how can you be THAT upset he made it. He had a great year. I hear Dirk's name...and while I get being on the fence between him and Blake, I don't get how Dirk so clearly deserved it over Blake. Blake had a better invididual year and his team had more succes. Oh well. After KD and Bron, there's no SF worth of second team forward spot either. Blake by default. Pau could have an argument, but he had a down year for sure. I think people realized that, and it hurt him. It was his worst season in quite some time.

Blake beats Dirk and Pau in WS/48, PER, while putting up some huge volume numbers (top 5 in minutes, FGs, FTA, Rebounds, etc.). He had a good year...let's not act like it was an atrocity.

Wade missed 13 games, that's 1/5th of the season. I can understand leaving him off too. I go back and forth on that...because when he was healthy he was the best SG in the game...maybe even the best guard.

I see no outrage here. Even with Kobe. Maybe I'm just numb to it, but whatever. It's Kobe...oh well.

Longhornfan1234
05-24-2012, 03:05 PM
I have issues with them yet again. Kobe is not a 1st teamer this season, I honestly can't believe they are still giving him that honor. Griffin 2nd team? What?

They need to do these the second the regular season is over, instead of waiting so long, letting playoff basketball influence ****.

explain.
2nd leading scorer in the L in his 16th season. can still play defense. commands double teams. just how is he too high? who should be in his place at SG guard? just curious.

t_money25
05-24-2012, 03:07 PM
The major problem I have with these teams is the format. It should be the top player from each position only, not the 2 best guards, 2 best forwards, and the best center;

1 PG
1 SG
1 SF
1 PF
1 C

NYKnickFanatic
05-24-2012, 03:07 PM
Wait, no Derrick Rose? I guess he missed to many games or something?? :confused:

willabeast77
05-24-2012, 03:07 PM
Kobe making it on the first team isn't surprising. Other than that, the selections actually looks legit. Wade made third team due to too many games missed- not a big deal. And Rose not making a team selection was the right decision.

willabeast77
05-24-2012, 03:09 PM
The major problem I have with these teams is the format. It should be the top player from each position only, not the 2 best guards, 2 best forwards, and the best center;

1 PG
1 SG
1 SF
1 PF
1 C

No, not really. With that way, Durant would not have made first team even though he ended second in MVP voting. The current format is good.

t_money25
05-24-2012, 03:11 PM
Who in their right mind voted for Derrick Rose???

still1ballin
05-24-2012, 03:12 PM
kobe!!! well deserved!

Longhornfan1234
05-24-2012, 03:15 PM
I'm still waiting on the Kobe haters to tell me why Wade deserves a higher spot.

rickshaw
05-24-2012, 03:15 PM
explain.
2nd leading scorer in the L in his 16th season. can still play defense. commands double teams. just how is he too high? who should be in his place at SG guard? just curious.

It's 2 guards, not a PG and SG. I'd take Westbrook and Parker.

Chronz
05-24-2012, 03:16 PM
1st team (CP3) and 2nd Team (Griffin) and they still can't win a game against the Spurs. Cue the CP3 apologists...

lol dig deeper in your analysis

Chronz
05-24-2012, 03:16 PM
3rd team is Rondo Wade Melo Dirk and Chandler

I wanted timmy to get the 3rd center spot but Chandler is ok

The NBA ****ed up, Duncan should have been a 2nd or 3rd teamer

ManRam
05-24-2012, 03:17 PM
I'm still waiting on the Kobe haters to tell me why Wade deserves a higher spot.

Literally the ONLY reason wade doesn't deserve to be above Kobe is because of games missed...

That's it.

LoveMeOrHateMe
05-24-2012, 03:17 PM
Instead of calling out Kobe haters, Laker fans, please explain why Kobe actually belongs there this season. If you can't, then stop with the ridiculous comments, it makes you look like a complete homer.

Ur a hater Man u deleted my Kobe thread but kept the Kobe hate threa ur a joke!

Kobe was 2nd in scoring
4th in MVP votes
Oh and he carried the lakers I mean the few players that actually played with heart to 3rd place In the west
He also had the best season of any sg this year!

amos1er
05-24-2012, 03:17 PM
Instead of calling out Kobe haters, Laker fans, please explain why Kobe actually belongs there this season. If you can't, then stop with the ridiculous comments, it makes you look like a complete homer.

The burden of proof actually lies with the ones who say that he doesn't belong there. Its you "haters" who should be coming up with reasons why he doesn't belong there. Why should we have to defend him when he is already there. Its you all making the accusation, then why don't you all back it up with more than..."its a joke that Kobe is on the first team". ****ing typical lame ****. Why not provide who you think should be on the team ahead of him and some reasons why that particular player should be there a head of him. Thats the way a debate works people. Provide your argument and we will then provide our counter argument.

Chronz
05-24-2012, 03:17 PM
I have issues with them yet again. Kobe is not a 1st teamer this season, I honestly can't believe they are still giving him that honor. Griffin 2nd team? What?

They need to do these the second the regular season is over, instead of waiting so long, letting playoff basketball influence ****.

I thought so too but how have the playoffs influenced the list?

BobbyHillSwag
05-24-2012, 03:18 PM
I'm still waiting on the Kobe haters to tell me why Wade deserves a higher spot.

are you kidding me? who in their right mind would argue that? wade doesnt even deserve a spot

LoveMeOrHateMe
05-24-2012, 03:19 PM
I swear Kobe will be retired, and the media won't have figured it out and he will get MVP votes, and make 3rd team all NBA.

Someone is mad? And he says he isn't a Kobe hater :rolleyes:

Chronz
05-24-2012, 03:20 PM
I have an even bigger problem with Griffin over Nowitzki or Wade as well as others.

How can Wade make it as a F? And whats the case for Dirk?

Chronz
05-24-2012, 03:20 PM
Griffin average like points in the playoffs second team my @$s.
Key word being PLAYOFFS

This is a REGULAR SEASON AWARD

t_money25
05-24-2012, 03:22 PM
No, not really. With that way, Durant would not have made first team even though he ended second in MVP voting. The current format is good.

So what? Durant would just be finishing a close second to Lebron and there's no shame in that.

BobbyHillSwag
05-24-2012, 03:22 PM
The burden of proof actually lies with the ones who say that he doesn't belong there. Its you "haters" who should be coming up with reasons why he doesn't belong there. Why should we have to defend him when he is already there. Its you all making the accusation, then why don't you all back it up with more than..."its a joke that Kobe is on the first team". ****ing typical lame ****. Why not provide who you think should be on the team ahead of him and some reasons why that particular player should be there a head of him. Thats the way a debate works people. Provide your argument and we will then provide our counter argument.

:clap:

ManRam
05-24-2012, 03:22 PM
The burden of proof actually lies with the ones who say that he doesn't belong there. Its you "haters" who should be coming up with reasons why he doesn't belong there. Why should we have to defend him when he is already there. Its you all making the accusation, then why don't you all back it up with more than..."its a joke that Kobe is on the first team". ****ing typical lame ****. Why not provide who you think should be on the team ahead of him and some reasons why that particular player should be there a head of him. Thats the way a debate works people. Provide your argument and we will then provide our counter argument.

I think the argument is pretty obvious...Kobe wasn't better than a good chunk of guards in the NBA this season. I mean, the only argument you have is that "I don't have to prove it because he got voted on the first team so it's your burden"...or you get this:


Kobe was 2nd in scoring
4th in MVP votes
Oh and he carried the lakers I mean the few players that actually played with heart to 3rd place In the west
He also had the best season of any sg this year!

Which, let me say, includes not a single fact that convinces me he deserved it.

1. Cool, he scored a lot of points...he also took an unhealthy amount of shots to do so. Inefficient as hell at times. I don't care. SCoring 28 points on 23 shots isn't exciting me...nor is his 43% FG% or his 52.7% TS%...
2. Who cares? That doesn't mean he deserves anything.
3. "Carried" the Lakers? A lot of Laker fans won't agree to that...
4. Not true.


Kobe, individually, didn't have a top 2 season among guards. There's the argument. It's simple :shrug:

Paul, Westbrook, Parker and Wade were all clearly better individual players. Both via the eye test, via contributions to team success and via statistics. The second you delve into advanced stats (and it seems the only people who don't like them any more are people who don't want to "believe" what they suggest...as if it's even a matter of "belief"...)

LoveMeOrHateMe
05-24-2012, 03:26 PM
Prove it? ^^

LoveMeOrHateMe
05-24-2012, 03:27 PM
Kobe 28-5-5
What were wades stats? 24-5-5??
Westbrook same?
Kobe deserved the spot or else he wouldn't be voted on the 1st team psd thinks they know more then the real experts aka not espn

Punk
05-24-2012, 03:27 PM
Kobe on the 1st team is fine. He was 2nd in scoring.

Chronz
05-24-2012, 03:29 PM
The only truly bad decision was putting Melo on there. FOR WHAT?


Kobe on the 1st team is fine. He was 2nd in scoring.

So players who are on the top scoring list deserve it? LOL cmon man

KB-Pau-DH2012
05-24-2012, 03:30 PM
Because Wade did not make the 1st team :laugh:

Mr. Glass didn't even make 2nd team. :laugh:

Chronz
05-24-2012, 03:31 PM
Kobe 28-5-5
What were wades stats? 24-5-5??
Westbrook same?
Kobe deserved the spot or else he wouldn't be voted on the 1st team psd thinks they know more then the real experts aka not espn

Dig deeper into your statistical analysis and dont you think some of those "real experts" work for ESPN?

willabeast77
05-24-2012, 03:32 PM
So what? Durant would just be finishing a close second to Lebron and there's no shame in that.

But if he came in second for MVP voting, how is second all-nba team deserved? The format used now is good. A lot of deserving players would get robbed with the other format.

KB-Pau-DH2012
05-24-2012, 03:37 PM
Oh and to all the Kobe Haters, Kobe says: "You're Welcome" #1stteamallnba

ManRam
05-24-2012, 03:38 PM
Prove it? ^^

I just did. OK...since you need it fed to you...

I think the other 4 had more positive impacts on their team's success. You don't hear anyone saying Russy hurts his team any more (except Skip, but he's stupid). You heard A LOT this year about how Kobe was killing his own team...even from Laker fans.

Stats don't lie:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=bryanko01&y1=2012&p2=westbru01&y2=2012&p3=paulch01&y3=2012&p4=parketo01&y4=2012&p5=wadedw01&y5=2012

PER (overall rank)
2. Paul
3. Wade
10. Russy
16. TP
17. Kobe

Winshares/48 minutes:
Paul: .278
Wade: .227
Parker: .177
Westy: .163
Kobe: .132

Ugly.

Kobe is last among the 5 in PER, WS/48, WS, TS%, eFG%...while being #1 is USG% (not gonna help the team out when you're not excelling at those prior stats). Lowest offensive rating, highest defensive rating (AKA, last in both). Lowest FG%, lowest assists, most turnovers, lowest point per shot. I can go on and on...

Easily the most inefficient of the bunch. Easily the least influential on his team's success.


The only argument you have is a COMPLETE shunning of basically every worthwhile stat. You can throw PPG at me...but I'll just laugh you off. KoME mode killed his team's chances A LOT this year, and again, many Laker fans will be the first to admit it.

Might sound harsh, and hell, I wasn't even being hard on Kobe to start this...but Kobe was basically just a high volume shooter this season. That's how I'd sum him up. Lots and lots of shots, and even more misses...


However, based on this...I don't think you have a firm grasp on using stats to evaluate players.

So, while I respect your opinion, I'm going to realize that you won't ever see it like how I see it...and just move on. Congrats for you boy making another First Team...but Kobe fans will be the first to say that that type of stuff doesn't matter, right?


Kobe 28-5-5
What were wades stats? 24-5-5??
Westbrook same?
Kobe deserved the spot or else he wouldn't be voted on the 1st team psd thinks they know more then the real experts aka not espn

Hawkeye15
05-24-2012, 03:45 PM
explain.
2nd leading scorer in the L in his 16th season. can still play defense. commands double teams. just how is he too high? who should be in his place at SG guard? just curious.

Look at Kobe's advanced numbers. They don't stack up in the slightest. And OF COURSE he was high in scoring, he led the league in shot attempts.

Its 2 guards, 2 forwards, and a center. Parker and Westbrook both deserved it over him.

Hawkeye15
05-24-2012, 03:46 PM
I'm still waiting on the Kobe haters to tell me why Wade deserves a higher spot.

as an NBA lover, I am telling Kobephiles that Parker, Westbrook, and Paul all deserve to be ahead of him. The team has 2 guards, so him being a SG doesn't matter at all. Look at the 2 forwards. Do you see a PF there?

amos1er
05-24-2012, 03:50 PM
Literally the ONLY reason wade doesn't deserve to be above Kobe is because of games missed...

That's it.

Well...longevity, constitution and health are half the battle there buddy. If Kobe at his age is able to play more games than Wade at a younger age, what does that tell you...

-Kobe24-TJ19-
05-24-2012, 03:54 PM
So players who are on the top scoring list deserve it? LOL cmon man

he's the best SG in the league, it really is that simple

Hawkeye15
05-24-2012, 03:59 PM
he's the best SG in the league, it really is that simple

Well Wade was still better, he just missed some time. With Wade out some, and Manu missing so much time, what competition did Kobe have? Harden?

And once again, there were 3 PG's that had a better year than Kobe did. Therefore, he should be no higher than 2nd team.

Hawkeye15
05-24-2012, 04:00 PM
ok, everyone get yet that its 2 guards, 2 forwards, 1 center? Look at the forwards on the 1st team. Do you see a PF?

basketfan4life
05-24-2012, 04:01 PM
I think the argument is pretty obvious...Kobe wasn't better than a good chunk of guards in the NBA this season. I mean, the only argument you have is that "I don't have to prove it because he got voted on the first team so it's your burden"...or you get this:



Which, let me say, includes not a single fact that convinces me he deserved it.

1. Cool, he scored a lot of points...he also took an unhealthy amount of shots to do so. Inefficient as hell at times. I don't care. SCoring 28 points on 23 shots isn't exciting me...nor is his 43% FG% or his 52.7% TS%...
2. Who cares? That doesn't mean he deserves anything.
3. "Carried" the Lakers? A lot of Laker fans won't agree to that...
4. Not true.


Kobe, individually, didn't have a top 2 season among guards. There's the argument. It's simple :shrug:

Paul, Westbrook, Parker and Wade were all clearly better individual players. Both via the eye test, via contributions to team success and via statistics. The second you delve into advanced stats (and it seems the only people who don't like them any more are people who don't want to "believe" what they suggest...as if it's even a matter of "belief"...)

This is what bothers me, it's exaggration.

I looked at the list JB put W/S, and PER, half of the players that are a head of Kobe are clearly inferior to him as a player, how can you take this much serious. Ryan Anderson is top 10 on one of those list for GOD's sake.

alencp3
05-24-2012, 04:02 PM
So many holes in his game and still makes the second team. Be aware NBA because Blake is coming even stronger next season. Sky is the limit

Chronz
05-24-2012, 04:02 PM
he's the best SG in the league, it really is that simple

First off, does being the best SG make him worthy of a GUARD spot that includes PG as well as other SG's?

Secondly, why doesnt he produce or defend like the best SG?

John Walls Era
05-24-2012, 04:03 PM
Teams look okay to me... Although I think Cousins should have gotten some love

Players that didn't make the playoffs don't deserve love.

KB-Pau-DH2012
05-24-2012, 04:03 PM
Well atleast Heat fans and LeBron apologists will say that LeBron won this yr with an all 3rd teamer in their argument for LeBron as G.O.A.T. and better than MJ since Scottie was a 2nd teamer at worse on those Bulls title teams.

ManRam
05-24-2012, 04:04 PM
he's the best SG in the league, it really is that simple

Cool...but he wasn't the second best GUARD, so that factoid doesn't matter.

(Wade was better, BTW, just missed 1/5th of the season).

Chronz
05-24-2012, 04:05 PM
Well atleast Heat fans and LeBron apologists will say that LeBron won this yr with an all 3rd teamer in their argument for LeBron as G.O.A.T. and better than MJ since Scottie was a 2nd teamer at worse on those Bulls title teams.

LOL you sound like you have never heard JB say MJ won a title without a single other All-Star on his team.

amos1er
05-24-2012, 04:10 PM
I think the argument is pretty obvious...Kobe wasn't better than a good chunk of guards in the NBA this season. I mean, the only argument you have is that "I don't have to prove it because he got voted on the first team so it's your burden"...or you get this:



Which, let me say, includes not a single fact that convinces me he deserved it.

1. Cool, he scored a lot of points...he also took an unhealthy amount of shots to do so. Inefficient as hell at times. I don't care. SCoring 28 points on 23 shots isn't exciting me...nor is his 43% FG% or his 52.7% TS%...
2. Who cares? That doesn't mean he deserves anything.
3. "Carried" the Lakers? A lot of Laker fans won't agree to that...
4. Not true.


Kobe, individually, didn't have a top 2 season among guards. There's the argument. It's simple :shrug:

Paul, Westbrook, Parker and Wade were all clearly better individual players. Both via the eye test, via contributions to team success and via statistics. The second you delve into advanced stats (and it seems the only people who don't like them any more are people who don't want to "believe" what they suggest...as if it's even a matter of "belief"...)

I will give you that Kobe's fg% and TS% did disgust me this season and he did take an unhealthy amount of shots. That said, I will also say that it didn't excite me back in 06-07 when Wade was getting to the line more than any player in the history of the NBA....that did not excite me either. I think that in the 06 finals, 40% of Wade's ppg came from the charity stripe, needless to say that does not make for exciting basketball.

Which brings me to how Kobe just doesn't get the calls that Lebron gets, not to make excuses for his low fg% and TS%, but he just does not get the same treatment as Lebron or anyother superstar. Would that bring up his fg%? Yes for sure it would. Does that give him an excuse for taking wild shots? NO, he also could have had a higher fg% if he took more feasible shots. Which brings me to Mike Brown and his crap offense. I'm also sure that Browns crap offense and the fact that Jim Buss wanted Bynum to be more integrated in the offense took away from the natural scheme of what the offense should have been.

Basically, give the Lakers a better coach, take Jim Buss's love for Bynum out of the equation, give Kobe the calls that Lebron gets, and then you will see a much higher fg% and TS% out of Kobe. Not to mention that he did play the whole season with a torn ligament in his shooting hand that he has not complained about once.

Now, for the argument that Parker or Westbrook could have been ahead of him. I would say that if one of them made it ahead of him it should have been Parker. But if either one made it, it could be justified. I will admit that Kobe's star power does carry him some clout and does give him the tie breaking nod in these situations. But, I can also make the same reasoning for MVP this year and say that Parker or Durant could have deserved it over Lebron. Both had better records and both didn't have as good a players as Bosh and Wade on their team. In that situation, it was Lebron's star power that gave him the nod over Parker or Durant, the same way it was Kobe's star power that gave him the nod over Westbrook and Parker. Now, as for the genius' bringing up Wade...obviously did not play in enough games to qualify and did not have that great a season too.

jayjay33
05-24-2012, 04:11 PM
I hope he finished 2nd in scoring with the amount of shots he took. He is winning awards off his name at this point, which is where I have the problem. Love, Parker, and Westbrook all had better seasons, Wade as well but he missed a bunch of time, so I understand.


Yeah I dont get it either, Gasol led the team in Win Shares yet again and he isn't on either team. Bynum had a higher PER and Win Shares and was 2nd team while Kobe was 1st team.:confused:

The voters are not stats geeks.....they take things like being a big p**** or quiting when you dont get your way or not being able to guard your way out of a wet paper bag into account. An if I hear 1 more person talk about gasoft and "win Shares" I'm going to lose my mind. :mad:

JordansBulls
05-24-2012, 04:13 PM
Well atleast Heat fans and LeBron apologists will say that LeBron won this yr with an all 3rd teamer in their argument for LeBron as G.O.A.T. and better than MJ since Scottie was a 2nd teamer at worse on those Bulls title teams.

Well Pippen didn't make an all nba team until after the Bulls won there first title. So no. Not to mention Wade is already a proven winner and got it done as the man already. So that logic wouldn't apply. Not to mention MJ won 2 titles without another guy who made the allstar team, while Lebron has 2 other allstars on his team.

amos1er
05-24-2012, 04:15 PM
LOL you sound like you have never heard JB say MJ won a title without a single other All-Star on his team.

lol Pippen is considered a top 50 player of all-time and could have won the title 1994 without Jordan if not for a bogus call in NY's favor.

amos1er
05-24-2012, 04:16 PM
Well Pippen didn't make an all nba team until after the Bulls won there first title. So no. Not to mention Wade is already a proven winner and got it done as the man already. So that logic wouldn't apply. Not to mention MJ won 2 titles without another guy who made the allstar team, while Lebron has 2 other allstars on his team.

Jordan did not win a playoff series until Pippen's rookie year.

Chronz
05-24-2012, 04:17 PM
lol Pippen is considered a top 50 player of all-time and could have won the title 1994 without Jordan if not for a bogus call in NY's favor.
LOL look hes saying it again.

MJ won a title without another All-Star lmfao

WadeKobe
05-24-2012, 04:23 PM
List looks okay

* waits for Kobe haters to whine about Kobe making 1st team* ... :hide:

Seriously? Do you honestly believe that Kobe deserved 1st Team over Tony Parker? :confused:

And I'm not here advocating for Wade. When he played, he was the second or third best player in basketball, but he missed too many games. He is where he belongs, third team, due to too many missed games.

But Parker/Braynt should be switched.

My 1st Team: Howard, James, Durant, Parker, CP3
My 2nd Team: Bynum, Love, Duncan, Rondo, Westbrook
My 3rd Team: Chandler, Aldridge, Griffin, Wade, Bryant

popo85
05-24-2012, 04:26 PM
2 Lakers 2 Bruins nice.

With Rubio healthy and if they can add some decent wing players, Wes Johnson is complete THRASH the Wolves should make the playoffs and K.Love will be a 1st teamer.

SaimuKala
05-24-2012, 04:27 PM
Cool...but he wasn't the second best GUARD, so that factoid doesn't matter.

(Wade was better, BTW, just missed 1/5th of the season).

How is Wade better than Kobe?

Wade was just too inconsistant. He played like what 50 games? And he had like 18-20 games where he scored under 20 points.

Kobe's stats

27,9 PPG
5,4 RPG
4,6 APG
1.2 SPG
0,3 BPG
3PT 30%
FG 43%

Wade's stats

22,1 PPG
4,8 RPG
4,6 APG
1,7 SPG
1,3 BPG
3PT 26%
FG 49%

Now look at the shots Kobe is getting. And look at the shots Wade is getting, alot of his points come from fastbreak. AND yes he has the best player on the planet leading the fast break with him.

Kobe's PER is lower than Wade's, so what? Ryan Anderson has a higher PER than most of the PF's

sep11ie
05-24-2012, 04:28 PM
All that @ stuff gets on my freaking nerves.

amos1er
05-24-2012, 04:38 PM
LOL look hes saying it again.

MJ won a title without another All-Star lmfao

lol...Pippen was also a all-star finals MVP.

ManRam
05-24-2012, 04:46 PM
How is Wade better than Kobe?

Wade was just too inconsistant. He played like what 50 games? And he had like 18-20 games where he scored under 20 points.

Kobe's stats

27,9 PPG
5,4 RPG
4,6 APG
1.2 SPG
0,3 BPG
3PT 30%
FG 43%

Wade's stats

22,1 PPG
4,8 RPG
4,6 APG
1,7 SPG
1,3 BPG
3PT 26%
FG 49%

Now look at the shots Kobe is getting. And look at the shots Wade is getting, alot of his points come from fastbreak. AND yes he has the best player on the planet leading the fast break with him.

Kobe's PER is lower than Wade's, so what? Ryan Anderson has a higher PER than most of the PF's

Basic counting stats can be so misleading.

Also, who cares HOW he gets his points? All that matters that he does. The fact that he can get such efficient shots in the fast break makes him all the better of a player. That's what you want. I don't credit Kobe any extra because he takes so many tough shots...because it's not beneficial. Getting easy shots is a tremendous advantage, and nothing to use against a player. It doesn't matter how you score, it just matters that you do and that you do so efficiently.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=wadedw01&y1=2012&p2=bryanko01&y2=2012

The second you look any deeper at these things, you'll realize Wade pretty much does every single thing better. Again, VOLUME is really the only thing Kobe has on these 4 other guards. Mainly, shooting volume. The term "volume shooters" isn't always a good thing...and that's what Kobe is now.

Yes, Kobe scores MORE, but he needs to take a lot MORE shots than these other guys would to get his points. Per 36 minutes, Bryant takes 3 more shots a game, just to score 2 more points. That's not impressive.

Points per shot isn't really a hallmark stat, but it's telling. Kobe is 58th in the league in points per shot. He scores 1.21 points per every shot attempt. Wade's only at 25, with 1.29 points per shot...but that difference is significant. Volume: that's Kobe's only advantage.

(Sidenote: we talk about "pure" scorers, whatever that means...and I don't get it. LeBron is the best "pure" scorer IMO. I don't care how he score, but he's 4th in the NBA in points per shot at 1.44. That's tremendous efficiency. He scored less than one point less a game than Kobe, while taking 4 fewer shots...that's pure scoring).

What's more impressive than Kobe's PPG, is efficiency. Wade is a much more efficient scorer. Higher FG%, higher TS% and a higher eFG%. In fact, Kobe had a 46.2 eFG% this year...that's pretty damn bad. Yes, Kobe averaged more rebounds and assists, but that's because he played more minutes. Wade has a rebound% of 8.7 compared to Kobe's 7.8. He has an AST% of 27.3 to Kobe's 23.7. They turn the ball over at indeintical rates. Wade not only has a higher PER (and discrediting PER by mentioning Anderson isn't really the best way to do that...), but he has a SIGNIFICANTLY higher PER. It's not even close. The biggest contrast is in win shares. Wade had 1.5 more win shares, despite playing in 9 fewer games. He had .227 WS/48 compared to Kobe's .132. That's a HUGE gap that you can't ignore.

You use these simple per game stats to "prove" Kobe is better...when in reality those stats don't really pursuade me much (they look the same to me), but thes second you dig ANY deeper it starts favoring Wade big time. Factor in minutes, factor in percentages, and factor in efficiency and it's game over.

amos1er
05-24-2012, 04:49 PM
Basic counting stats can be so misleading.

Also, who cares HOW he gets his points? All that matters that he does. The fact that he can get such efficient shots in the fast break makes him all the better of a player. That's what you want. I don't credit Kobe any extra because he takes so many tough shots...because it's not beneficial. Getting easy shots is a tremendous advantage, and nothing to use against a player. It doesn't matter how you score, it just matters that you do and that you do so efficiently.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=wadedw01&y1=2012&p2=bryanko01&y2=2012

The second you look any deeper at these things, you'll realize Wade pretty much does every single thing better. Again, VOLUME is really the only thing Kobe has on these 4 other guards. Mainly, shooting volume. The term "volume shooters" isn't always a good thing...and that's what Kobe is now.

Yes, Kobe scores MORE, but he needs to take a lot MORE shots than these other guys would to get his points. Per 36 minutes, Bryant takes 3 more shots a game, just to score 2 more points. That's not impressive.

Points per shot isn't really a hallmark stat, but it's telling. Kobe is 58th in the league in points per shot. He scores 1.21 points per every shot attempt. Wade's only at 25, with 1.29 points per shot...but that difference is significant. Volume: that's Kobe's only advantage.

(Sidenote: we talk about "pure" scorers, whatever that means...and I don't get it. LeBron is the best "pure" scorer IMO. I don't care how he score, but he's 4th in the NBA in points per shot at 1.44. That's tremendous efficiency. He scored less than one point less a game than Kobe, while taking 4 fewer shots...that's pure scoring).

What's more impressive than Kobe's PPG, is efficiency. Wade is a much more efficient scorer. Higher FG%, higher TS% and a higher eFG%. In fact, Kobe had a 46.2 eFG% this year...that's pretty damn bad. Yes, Kobe averaged more rebounds and assists, but that's because he played more minutes. Wade has a rebound% of 8.7 compared to Kobe's 7.8. He has an AST% of 27.3 to Kobe's 23.7. They turn the ball over at indeintical rates. Wade not only has a higher PER (and discrediting PER by mentioning Anderson isn't really the best way to do that...), but he has a SIGNIFICANTLY higher PER. It's not even close. The biggest contrast is in win shares. Wade had 1.5 more win shares, despite playing in 9 fewer games. He had .227 WS/48 compared to Kobe's .132. That's a HUGE gap that you can't ignore.

You use these simple per game stats to "prove" Kobe is better...when in reality those stats don't really pursuade me much (they look the same to me), but thes second you dig ANY deeper it starts favoring Wade big time. Factor in minutes, factor in percentages, and factor in efficiency and it's game over.

Points per shot is a ******** stat...Too much influence from whether or not the officials blow the whistle for you. Certain superstars get more calls than others and non-superstars will always be at a disadvantage.

Some of you put waaay too much emphasis on stats. You have to remember that stats can always be manipulated to reflect whatever the guy making them is trying to prove. Many of Hollinger's stats are not acknowledged by the NBA or any other credible source.

Ebbs
05-24-2012, 04:50 PM
Oh ffs. Griffin and Kobe getting spots over Wade and Dirk is vomit worthy.

jayjay33
05-24-2012, 04:51 PM
Look at Kobe's advanced numbers. They don't stack up in the slightest. And OF COURSE he was high in scoring, he led the league in shot attempts.

Its 2 guards, 2 forwards, and a center. Parker and Westbrook both deserved it over him.

Ok fine, when the NBA gets an all advance stats team, kobe wont be on it. :D
If they wanted to just take 1,2 and 3 in advance stats at each position then they wouldn't vote. They don't vote for scoring champs. If they wanted all nba teams decided like that then they would be, but it's not, so Kobe deserved it.

jayjay33
05-24-2012, 05:02 PM
Basic counting stats can be so misleading.

Also, who cares HOW he gets his points? All that matters that he does. The fact that he can get such efficient shots in the fast break makes him all the better of a player.That's what you want. I don't credit Kobe any extra because he takes so many tough shots...because it's not beneficial. Getting easy shots is a tremendous advantage, and nothing to use against a player. It doesn't matter how you score, it just matters that you do and that you do so efficiently.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=wadedw01&y1=2012&p2=bryanko01&y2=2012

The second you look any deeper at these things, you'll realize Wade pretty much does every single thing better. Again, VOLUME is really the only thing Kobe has on these 4 other guards. Mainly, shooting volume. The term "volume shooters" isn't always a good thing...and that's what Kobe is now.
Yes, Kobe scores MORE, but he needs to take a lot MORE shots than these other guys would to get his points. Per 36 minutes, Bryant takes 3 more shots a game, just to score 2 more points. That's not impressive.

Points per shot isn't really a hallmark stat, but it's telling. Kobe is 58th in the league in points per shot. He scores 1.21 points per every shot attempt. Wade's only at 25, with 1.29 points per shot...but that difference is significant. Volume: that's Kobe's only advantage.

(Sidenote: we talk about "pure" scorers, whatever that means...and I don't get it. LeBron is the best "pure" scorer IMO. I don't care how he score, but he's 4th in the NBA in points per shot at 1.44. That's tremendous efficiency. He scored less than one point less a game than Kobe, while taking 4 fewer shots...that's pure scoring).

What's more impressive than Kobe's PPG, is efficiency. Wade is a much more efficient scorer. Higher FG%, higher TS% and a higher eFG%. In fact, Kobe had a 46.2 eFG% this year...that's pretty damn bad. Yes, Kobe averaged more rebounds and assists, but that's because he played more minutes. Wade has a rebound% of 8.7 compared to Kobe's 7.8. He has an AST% of 27.3 to Kobe's 23.7. They turn the ball over at indeintical rates. Wade not only has a higher PER (and discrediting PER by mentioning Anderson isn't really the best way to do that...), but he has a SIGNIFICANTLY higher PER. It's not even close. The biggest contrast is in win shares. Wade had 1.5 more win shares, despite playing in 9 fewer games. He had .227 WS/48 compared to Kobe's .132. That's a HUGE gap that you can't ignore.

You use these simple per game stats to "prove" Kobe is better...when in reality those stats don't really pursuade me much (they look the same to me), but thes second you dig ANY deeper it starts favoring Wade big time. Factor in minutes, factor in percentages, and factor in efficiency and it's game over.

1. Why not just make all awards non voted, like scoring champ and give it to the guys with the best "advance stats".

2. So that means there a HUGH deference in what wade means to his team winning as opposed to what Kobe means to his team? Take kobe and wade of there teams and the lakers become vastly Superior team to the heat?

Chronz
05-24-2012, 05:03 PM
yes it does matter, Because you teamates have alot to do with how "easy" the buckets you can get are. if you don't give more credit for the ablitiy to make tough shots. Then your not giving credit to the guy who can do more.

wat?

ArmLaker
05-24-2012, 05:17 PM
lol i still can't believe people are whining over Kobe's selection. Who would you guys take over Kobe?

jayjay33
05-24-2012, 05:35 PM
wat?

?

Ezio
05-24-2012, 05:36 PM
Griffin > LMA :pity:

MickeyMgl
05-24-2012, 05:39 PM
Well, you don't really think he's a first-teamer, do you?

He sure is. 2nd in scoring, 4th in MVP voting. Don't see a good argument why not.

lakerboy
05-24-2012, 05:47 PM
Basic counting stats can be so misleading.

Also, who cares HOW he gets his points? All that matters that he does. The fact that he can get such efficient shots in the fast break makes him all the better of a player. That's what you want. I don't credit Kobe any extra because he takes so many tough shots...because it's not beneficial. Getting easy shots is a tremendous advantage, and nothing to use against a player. It doesn't matter how you score, it just matters that you do and that you do so efficiently.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=wadedw01&y1=2012&p2=bryanko01&y2=2012

The second you look any deeper at these things, you'll realize Wade pretty much does every single thing better. Again, VOLUME is really the only thing Kobe has on these 4 other guards. Mainly, shooting volume. The term "volume shooters" isn't always a good thing...and that's what Kobe is now.

Yes, Kobe scores MORE, but he needs to take a lot MORE shots than these other guys would to get his points. Per 36 minutes, Bryant takes 3 more shots a game, just to score 2 more points. That's not impressive.

Points per shot isn't really a hallmark stat, but it's telling. Kobe is 58th in the league in points per shot. He scores 1.21 points per every shot attempt. Wade's only at 25, with 1.29 points per shot...but that difference is significant. Volume: that's Kobe's only advantage.

(Sidenote: we talk about "pure" scorers, whatever that means...and I don't get it. LeBron is the best "pure" scorer IMO. I don't care how he score, but he's 4th in the NBA in points per shot at 1.44. That's tremendous efficiency. He scored less than one point less a game than Kobe, while taking 4 fewer shots...that's pure scoring).

What's more impressive than Kobe's PPG, is efficiency. Wade is a much more efficient scorer. Higher FG%, higher TS% and a higher eFG%. In fact, Kobe had a 46.2 eFG% this year...that's pretty damn bad. Yes, Kobe averaged more rebounds and assists, but that's because he played more minutes. Wade has a rebound% of 8.7 compared to Kobe's 7.8. He has an AST% of 27.3 to Kobe's 23.7. They turn the ball over at indeintical rates. Wade not only has a higher PER (and discrediting PER by mentioning Anderson isn't really the best way to do that...), but he has a SIGNIFICANTLY higher PER. It's not even close. The biggest contrast is in win shares. Wade had 1.5 more win shares, despite playing in 9 fewer games. He had .227 WS/48 compared to Kobe's .132. That's a HUGE gap that you can't ignore.

You use these simple per game stats to "prove" Kobe is better...when in reality those stats don't really pursuade me much (they look the same to me), but thes second you dig ANY deeper it starts favoring Wade big time. Factor in minutes, factor in percentages, and factor in efficiency and it's game over.

Nobody can really persuade you much . You are one of the biggest Kobe hater around here.

hgtiger32
05-24-2012, 05:47 PM
I don't know why people are saying Griffin should've been 1st team. He's all entertainment. Only dunks.

If Kevin Love was on the Clippers instead of Blake Griffin, the Clips would be a better team

lakerboy
05-24-2012, 05:48 PM
I think the argument is pretty obvious...Kobe wasn't better than a good chunk of guards in the NBA this season. I mean, the only argument you have is that "I don't have to prove it because he got voted on the first team so it's your burden"...or you get this:



Which, let me say, includes not a single fact that convinces me he deserved it.

1. Cool, he scored a lot of points...he also took an unhealthy amount of shots to do so. Inefficient as hell at times. I don't care. SCoring 28 points on 23 shots isn't exciting me...nor is his 43% FG% or his 52.7% TS%...
2. Who cares? That doesn't mean he deserves anything.
3. "Carried" the Lakers? A lot of Laker fans won't agree to that...
4. Not true.


Kobe, individually, didn't have a top 2 season among guards. There's the argument. It's simple :shrug:

Paul, Westbrook, Parker and Wade were all clearly better individual players. Both via the eye test, via contributions to team success and via statistics. The second you delve into advanced stats (and it seems the only people who don't like them any more are people who don't want to "believe" what they suggest...as if it's even a matter of "belief"...)

Contribution to team success and eye test?

Did you watch Laker games??? **** man we are lost without Kobe.

Bruno
05-24-2012, 05:57 PM
umad?

:laugh2:

this is all we've got this year boys.

JordansBulls
05-24-2012, 05:59 PM
lol Pippen is considered a top 50 player of all-time and could have won the title 1994 without Jordan if not for a bogus call in NY's favor.

After playing with MJ he became that, before that he wasn't anything but a work in progress.
And saying Pippen would have won in 1994 is like saying Vince would have won in 2001. The same thing happened both went 7 games in round 2.

We mananged to play Cleveland who was 3-1 against us in the regular season without them having Nance and Daugherty around. So we got a break there.


no one seems to mention the huge fight in game 3 of this series that was pretty much a benefit to the Bulls and a blow to the Knicks. A scrub named JoJo English starts (I believe he started it but I maybe wrong) the fight with the Knicks starting PG, Derek Harper. As a result, both are ejected for the rest of game 3, which had 1 half left to play, and are suspended for game 4. The Bulls losing JoJo English didn't mean much since he was a nobody. The Knicks losing Derek Harper was huge. Game 3 ended up with the Bulls winning by only 2 points on a Kukoc buzzer-beater. Is it far-fetched to think the Knicks would've done better with Harper in the game and possibly won? The Bulls won convincingly in game 4, but maybe it would've been different if Harper played. After all, he is someone that you believe would've been the difference in the Bulls going to the Finals and/or winning a title if they had been able to get him during the offseason. So really, just like you say the Pippen foul could've been the difference in the Bulls losing in 7 vs. the Bulls winning in 6, the Harper-English could've been the difference in the Knicks winning in 7 vs. the Knicks sweeping.

I'm not saying the above would've happened. The Bulls could've won those games anyway, just like the Knicks could've won anyway if it weren't for the Pippen foul. But you can say the Knicks were hurt by something that had nothing to do with the way they played and over something they didn't even initiate and things could've ended up very differently if it wasn't for that.

And even if you just want to say the Knicks weren't that great cause the Bulls w/o Jordan took the Knicks to 7 games, its still a false statement to make. Were the 08 Celtics not great cause they were pushed to 7 games by a under .500 Hawks team and a Lebron+scrubs Cavs team? Were the 09 Lakers not great cause they were pushed to 7 games by the Rockets who didn't have T-Mac and didn't have Yao for half the series? ***** like that happens all the time in the NBA.


Regarding Pippen, most of the writers and articles point to that MJ aided Pippen into becoming the player he became.

Here are a few:


Source: GoogleBooks (http://books.google.com/books?id=aQ84ViBNkYwC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=Game+Michael+Jordan+broke+his+leg&source=web&ots=Y9Xtn3nomR&sig=6shSn2cklYKVP1kBaC6nI0A_oko&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA39,M1)




Pippen, unlike other Bulls who usually kept their distance from Jordan, tried to learn all he could from Jordan in practice. In turn, Jordan worked with Pippen on his moves, jump shot, and defense and taught him mental toughness.



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http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/ask-sam-sam-smith-opens-his-mailbag-033012.html



Sam: I remember Jordan helping Pippen with this. In Pippen’s first several seasons, he rarely got calls on drives. Jordan used to show him — we were permitted to watch practice then — how to drive into contact and then react to the contact. Pippen used to practice it all the time with Jordan showing him.


----------------------------------------------------------

Pippen relates on how his game improved - Link (http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/jordanhof_pippen_090910.html)


“He was very competitive, so he went at me and that helped me learn,” said Pippen. “You continue to compete against the very best every day, and you will get better, or you’ll be embarrassed.”


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-krausejordan090909



“Michael was great at identifying things,” Krause said. “Would Pippen have been great someplace else? Michael absolutely killed Scottie in practice every day for his first two years. Mike just tore Pip up. He made Pip learn how to compete and forced him into playing hard. Had there not been someone to challenge Scottie like that, I’m not sure what would’ve happened to him.”




http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091030.html


Sam: I know there's that "he's a rookie thing," though I thought more with Rose was the way he drove and then was so quick he could avoid the contact. I think with him he was more accustomed to having just come out of playing in the Chicago playgrounds where you aren't going to get calls going to the basket. I remember watching Jordan not long after Pippen joined the Bulls showing Pippen how to drive and go into a defender and then finish your shot. Wade was a more mature player having gone to college several years, and Anthony played in the post and inside a lot. That's one area for Rose for improve. He's a quick study and I think you'll see him taking the hit since he's strong and can do it and drawing more calls this season.


http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091023.html



Would you still consider pippen to be included on the 50 greatest players list? I know that he pioneered/changed the way that his position was played creating more of a point-forward spot, which paved the way for players like melo and lebron. But he never did accomplish anything by himself, and proved in Portland that he couldn't carry a team.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sam: You can't judge with Portland given he was well past his athletic prime and had lost basically all his explosiveness and was operating on guile. He was a much smarter player than ever given credit for, though many still question his top 50 inclusion. The notion is if not for Jordan, there would be no chance. And I tend to agree. If he were picked by the Clippers at No. 4 in that draft as he should have been, he would not have been a top 50 player because he couldn't create that much for himself. But he wasn't and he was the No. 2 part of six championships and was a multiple defensive player and gold medalist on the Dream Team. So he deserves the recognition and will be inducted into the Hall of Fame as a result. Most everyone who has succeeded has benefitted from good timing on occasion. Pippen did as well, but he also made the most of it.




http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=5453558



CHICAGO -- The Detroit Pistons may have toughened up the Bulls in the late 1980s and early 1990s, but Jerry Krause wouldn't give the Bad Boys any undue credit for contributing to Scottie Pippen's basketball manhood or his Hall of Fame career.

"No, Michael [Jordan] made him a man," said the Bulls' former general manager, now a scout for the White Sox. "The Pistons didn't have anything to do with that. Michael made him a man and Doug [Collins] did a great job with him in his first year. And then when Phil [Jackson] brought the triangle [offense] in, it really helped him because he had all the physical skills to be great."





"And he had Michael to beat on him for a year every day in practice and Michael beat him to death," Krause said. "The practices were great because you could see him at the end of the year start to grow and start to fight Michael . . ."

jayjay33
05-24-2012, 07:04 PM
After playing with MJ he became that, before that he wasn't anything but a work in progress.
And saying Pippen would have won in 1994 is like saying Vince would have won in 2001. The same thing happened both went 7 games in round 2.

We mananged to play Cleveland who was 3-1 against us in the regular season without them having Nance and Daugherty around. So we got a break there.


no one seems to mention the huge fight in game 3 of this series that was pretty much a benefit to the Bulls and a blow to the Knicks. A scrub named JoJo English starts (I believe he started it but I maybe wrong) the fight with the Knicks starting PG, Derek Harper. As a result, both are ejected for the rest of game 3, which had 1 half left to play, and are suspended for game 4. The Bulls losing JoJo English didn't mean much since he was a nobody. The Knicks losing Derek Harper was huge. Game 3 ended up with the Bulls winning by only 2 points on a Kukoc buzzer-beater. Is it far-fetched to think the Knicks would've done better with Harper in the game and possibly won? The Bulls won convincingly in game 4, but maybe it would've been different if Harper played. After all, he is someone that you believe would've been the difference in the Bulls going to the Finals and/or winning a title if they had been able to get him during the offseason. So really, just like you say the Pippen foul could've been the difference in the Bulls losing in 7 vs. the Bulls winning in 6, the Harper-English could've been the difference in the Knicks winning in 7 vs. the Knicks sweeping.

I'm not saying the above would've happened. The Bulls could've won those games anyway, just like the Knicks could've won anyway if it weren't for the Pippen foul. But you can say the Knicks were hurt by something that had nothing to do with the way they played and over something they didn't even initiate and things could've ended up very differently if it wasn't for that.

And even if you just want to say the Knicks weren't that great cause the Bulls w/o Jordan took the Knicks to 7 games, its still a false statement to make. Were the 08 Celtics not great cause they were pushed to 7 games by a under .500 Hawks team and a Lebron+scrubs Cavs team? Were the 09 Lakers not great cause they were pushed to 7 games by the Rockets who didn't have T-Mac and didn't have Yao for half the series? ***** like that happens all the time in the NBA.


Regarding Pippen, most of the writers and articles point to that MJ aided Pippen into becoming the player he became.

Here are a few:


Source: GoogleBooks (http://books.google.com/books?id=aQ84ViBNkYwC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=Game+Michael+Jordan+broke+his+leg&source=web&ots=Y9Xtn3nomR&sig=6shSn2cklYKVP1kBaC6nI0A_oko&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA39,M1)





----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/ask-sam-sam-smith-opens-his-mailbag-033012.html



----------------------------------------------------------

Pippen relates on how his game improved - Link (http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/jordanhof_pippen_090910.html)




http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-krausejordan090909





http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091030.html




http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091023.html





http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=5453558

I wouldn't go that far....your embellishing now. An how is people saying scottie would have won any diferent than people saying jordan would have won if he had not just come back and only played 17 games?

tyfreaks brotha
05-24-2012, 07:12 PM
It's just a stupid list who cares it's not like it affects the players

Sportfan
05-24-2012, 07:14 PM
KG got snoozed!

JordansBulls
05-24-2012, 07:23 PM
I wouldn't go that far....your embellishing now. An how is people saying scottie would have won any diferent than people saying jordan would have won if he had not just come back and only played 17 games?

What??? Jordan already proved he could lead a team as the man, Pippen did not. It is like a Magic vs Worthy comparison.

Derek Harper was the starting PG for the Knicks as well. He played 13 minutes in game 3 and he was suspended in games 4 and 5 with Jo Jo English which is why game 5 was close as well.

jayjay33
05-24-2012, 07:40 PM
What??? Jordan already proved he could lead a team as the man, Pippen did not. It is like a Magic vs Worthy comparison.

Derek Harper was the starting PG for the Knicks as well. He played 13 minutes in game 3 and he was suspended in games 4 and 5 with Jo Jo English which is why game 5 was close as well.

So that's irrelevant wining in the past doesn't equal wining in the future, it's just as much an assumption that either would have won.....playing against drexler and hakeem and that rockets team would have been like no team jordan ever faced. jordan dodged a bullet.....

Derek harper was washed up when he went to the knicks, he was an ok role player. He was not some HUGH difference maker like your trying to sell it.

ManRam
05-24-2012, 07:49 PM
Basic counting stats can be so misleading.

Also, who cares HOW he gets his points? All that matters that he does. The fact that he can get such efficient shots in the fast break makes him all the better of a player. That's what you want. I don't credit Kobe any extra because he takes so many tough shots...because it's not beneficial. Getting easy shots is a tremendous advantage, and nothing to use against a player. It doesn't matter how you score, it just matters that you do and that you do so efficiently.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=wadedw01&y1=2012&p2=bryanko01&y2=2012

The second you look any deeper at these things, you'll realize Wade pretty much does every single thing better. Again, VOLUME is really the only thing Kobe has on these 4 other guards. Mainly, shooting volume. The term "volume shooters" isn't always a good thing...and that's what Kobe is now.

Yes, Kobe scores MORE, but he needs to take a lot MORE shots than these other guys would to get his points. Per 36 minutes, Bryant takes 3 more shots a game, just to score 2 more points. That's not impressive.

Points per shot isn't really a hallmark stat, but it's telling. Kobe is 58th in the league in points per shot. He scores 1.21 points per every shot attempt. Wade's only at 25, with 1.29 points per shot...but that difference is significant. Volume: that's Kobe's only advantage.

(Sidenote: we talk about "pure" scorers, whatever that means...and I don't get it. LeBron is the best "pure" scorer IMO. I don't care how he score, but he's 4th in the NBA in points per shot at 1.44. That's tremendous efficiency. He scored less than one point less a game than Kobe, while taking 4 fewer shots...that's pure scoring).

What's more impressive than Kobe's PPG, is efficiency. Wade is a much more efficient scorer. Higher FG%, higher TS% and a higher eFG%. In fact, Kobe had a 46.2 eFG% this year...that's pretty damn bad. Yes, Kobe averaged more rebounds and assists, but that's because he played more minutes. Wade has a rebound% of 8.7 compared to Kobe's 7.8. He has an AST% of 27.3 to Kobe's 23.7. They turn the ball over at indeintical rates. Wade not only has a higher PER (and discrediting PER by mentioning Anderson isn't really the best way to do that...), but he has a SIGNIFICANTLY higher PER. It's not even close. The biggest contrast is in win shares. Wade had 1.5 more win shares, despite playing in 9 fewer games. He had .227 WS/48 compared to Kobe's .132. That's a HUGE gap that you can't ignore.

You use these simple per game stats to "prove" Kobe is better...when in reality those stats don't really pursuade me much (they look the same to me), but thes second you dig ANY deeper it starts favoring Wade big time. Factor in minutes, factor in percentages, and factor in efficiency and it's game over.

Nobody can really persuade you much . You are one of the biggest Kobe hater around here.

Cool response. I type out a post that's pretty well thought out, laced with stuff that isn't biased and lacks the petty insults...and that's all you got? No **** no one is going to convince me anything if they/you dont even bother making an effort. Haha.

Tell me how I'm wrong here?

Also, I said right away that i actually don't care that Kobe got first team...so yeah, let's just use the whole "you're just a hater" method of "debate"...instead of actually saying anything. I didn't care, until people started saying dumb stuff.


All I have gotten so far as to why he's deserving is that his PPG, his 4th place MVP standing and him being the best SG (moot) make him worthy...OK...


And to the guy who said points per shot is a "********" (awesome diction!) I admitted it wasn't a great stat. Haha. But wonderful work ignoring everything else!


And yes...i watched plenty of games (to the "did-you-even-watch-my-favorite-team" style of "debater'). Your point?

Hawkeye15
05-24-2012, 11:36 PM
The voters are not stats geeks.....they take things like being a big p**** or quiting when you dont get your way or not being able to guard your way out of a wet paper bag into account. An if I hear 1 more person talk about gasoft and "win Shares" I'm going to lose my mind. :mad:

Let me guess. The nerdish advanced numbers don't agree with your opinion, therefore they are bunk.

THE MTL
05-24-2012, 11:40 PM
Is it just me or is the All-NBA 3rd team ALOT better than the All-NBA second team.

Rondo, Wade, Melo, Dirk, Chandler >>>>>> Parker, Westbrook, Griffin, Love, Bynum

Wade>You
05-24-2012, 11:41 PM
Not taking anything away from other guys, but Wade needs to have a place with Paul, Bryant, LeBron, Durant on these all-nba teams one of these days.


Is it just me or is the All-NBA 3rd team ALOT better than the All-NBA second team.

Rondo, Wade, Melo, Dirk, Chandler >>>>>> Parker, Westbrook, Griffin, Love, Bynum

I agree with everyone there except Chandler. The PG position is tough, IMO (cept for Wade).

still1ballin
05-24-2012, 11:59 PM
they mad.

thekmp211
05-25-2012, 12:01 AM
BG on there is kinda a joke. love him but cmon. not one of the 4 best forwards in basketball, not this season.

everything else looks cool. rondo wade and manu have arguments, as do pierce and melo, but i think the list is fair. better than some years honestly. LMA, pau, kg, or the two forwards i just mentioned are guys i would fill in over blake. but whatever. his numbers are okay.

MintBerryCrunch
05-25-2012, 12:10 AM
Kobe 28-5-5... Why doesn't he deserve first team?
Who does? Westbrook? 23-5-4. Parker? 19-7-2. Wade? 22-5-4.

Plus, all 3 of them have players on their team that are BETTER than them.

******* Haters, man.

thekmp211
05-25-2012, 12:14 AM
^ did they flip bynum for dwight or something? kobe is the best player on that team regardless of which stat god you pray to.

thekmp211
05-25-2012, 12:16 AM
I wouldn't go that far....your embellishing now. An how is people saying scottie would have won any diferent than people saying jordan would have won if he had not just come back and only played 17 games?

i mean even the GOAT needs to play himself into game shape.

pippen was a beast. check out his career post jordan in chicago and in particular in portland to get a sense for what JB is talking about. the dude was really, really good. might be the best perimeter defender...ever? especially for an all star caliber offensive player.

MintBerryCrunch
05-25-2012, 12:21 AM
^ did they flip bynum for dwight or something? kobe is the best player on that team regardless of which stat god you pray to.

I'm not sure I understand your comment .. Obviously Kobe is the best player on the Lakers.

LA_Raiders
05-25-2012, 12:35 AM
Kobe's Numbers are well worthed a 1st Team.

27,9 PPG
5,4 RPG
4,6 APG
1.2 SPG

MintBerryCrunch
05-25-2012, 12:39 AM
Kobe's Numbers are well worthed a 1st Team.

27,9 PPG
5,4 RPG
4,6 APG
1.2 SPG

Completely agree

Chronz
05-25-2012, 12:51 AM
Kobe's Numbers are well worthed a 1st Team.

27,9 PPG
5,4 RPG
4,6 APG
1.2 SPG

Sure if you ignore efficiency

b@llhog24
05-25-2012, 01:14 AM
Here they come, starting with Naps, what a surprise.

:laugh2:


I have issues with them yet again. Kobe is not a 1st teamer this season, I honestly can't believe they are still giving him that honor. Griffin 2nd team? What?

They need to do these the second the regular season is over, instead of waiting so long, letting playoff basketball influence ****.

To be fair from an historical persepective, not many guys who lead the league in scoring get left off. :shrug:


1st team looks right

For a guy who likes advanced stats such as yourself this proves that you're biased. :facepalm:


How is Wade better than Kobe?

Wade was just too inconsistant. He played like what 50 games? And he had like 18-20 games where he scored under 20 points.

Kobe's stats

27,9 PPG
5,4 RPG
4,6 APG
1.2 SPG
0,3 BPG
3PT 30%
FG 43%

Wade's stats

22,1 PPG
4,8 RPG
4,6 APG
1,7 SPG
1,3 BPG
3PT 26%
FG 49%

Now look at the shots Kobe is getting. And look at the shots Wade is getting, alot of his points come from fastbreak. AND yes he has the best player on the planet leading the fast break with him.

Kobe's PER is lower than Wade's, so what? Ryan Anderson has a higher PER than most of the PF's

If you don't know how to use a stat in its proper context why try to diminish it? It kind if has an "I'm to ignorant to actually try to understand what PER means" type feel. Not be offensive just saying.

PurpleJesus
05-25-2012, 01:20 AM
outside of a questionable Kobe as a first teamer, the list looks fine. I have seen some people complain about Blake on the 2nd team...but who else do you put in that spot? Melo possibly, but its not so clear that he should be there instead of Blake that people get worked up over it.

WadeKobe
05-25-2012, 01:21 AM
Points per shot is a ******** stat...Too much influence from whether or not the officials blow the whistle for you. Certain superstars get more calls than others and non-superstars will always be at a disadvantage.

Some of you put waaay too much emphasis on stats. You have to remember that stats can always be manipulated to reflect whatever the guy making them is trying to prove. Many of Hollinger's stats are not acknowledged by the NBA or any other credible source.

:laugh: Kobe is the king of superstar calls in the NBA. This only hurts your argument....

WadeKobe
05-25-2012, 01:29 AM
outside of a questionable Kobe as a first teamer, the list looks fine. I have seen some people complain about Blake on the 2nd team...but who else do you put in that spot? Melo possibly, but its not so clear that he should be there instead of Blake that people get worked up over it.

Duncan. KG. LaMarcus Aldridge. There are definitely options.

amos1er
05-25-2012, 01:44 AM
:laugh: Kobe is the king of superstar calls in the NBA. This only hurts your argument....

While it's true that Kobe does get his share of calls compared to the average NBA player, he still does not get the royal treatment of Lebron, Wade, Durant, Rose or even Kevin Love for that matter. Kobe has won too many titles for the NBA to give him additional help anymore. It's all about building small market team now or teams that haven't won it all. That was what the new CBA was all about and what David Stern is all about. When Kobe had the incident in Colorado, he lost all his endorsements and with it any kind of superstar treatment from the league. I would say he gets all-star treatment rather than superstar treatment.

amos1er
05-25-2012, 02:21 AM
After playing with MJ he became that, before that he wasn't anything but a work in progress.
And saying Pippen would have won in 1994 is like saying Vince would have won in 2001. The same thing happened both went 7 games in round 2.

We mananged to play Cleveland who was 3-1 against us in the regular season without them having Nance and Daugherty around. So we got a break there.


no one seems to mention the huge fight in game 3 of this series that was pretty much a benefit to the Bulls and a blow to the Knicks. A scrub named JoJo English starts (I believe he started it but I maybe wrong) the fight with the Knicks starting PG, Derek Harper. As a result, both are ejected for the rest of game 3, which had 1 half left to play, and are suspended for game 4. The Bulls losing JoJo English didn't mean much since he was a nobody. The Knicks losing Derek Harper was huge. Game 3 ended up with the Bulls winning by only 2 points on a Kukoc buzzer-beater. Is it far-fetched to think the Knicks would've done better with Harper in the game and possibly won? The Bulls won convincingly in game 4, but maybe it would've been different if Harper played. After all, he is someone that you believe would've been the difference in the Bulls going to the Finals and/or winning a title if they had been able to get him during the offseason. So really, just like you say the Pippen foul could've been the difference in the Bulls losing in 7 vs. the Bulls winning in 6, the Harper-English could've been the difference in the Knicks winning in 7 vs. the Knicks sweeping.

I'm not saying the above would've happened. The Bulls could've won those games anyway, just like the Knicks could've won anyway if it weren't for the Pippen foul. But you can say the Knicks were hurt by something that had nothing to do with the way they played and over something they didn't even initiate and things could've ended up very differently if it wasn't for that.

And even if you just want to say the Knicks weren't that great cause the Bulls w/o Jordan took the Knicks to 7 games, its still a false statement to make. Were the 08 Celtics not great cause they were pushed to 7 games by a under .500 Hawks team and a Lebron+scrubs Cavs team? Were the 09 Lakers not great cause they were pushed to 7 games by the Rockets who didn't have T-Mac and didn't have Yao for half the series? ***** like that happens all the time in the NBA.


Regarding Pippen, most of the writers and articles point to that MJ aided Pippen into becoming the player he became.

Here are a few:


Source: GoogleBooks (http://books.google.com/books?id=aQ84ViBNkYwC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=Game+Michael+Jordan+broke+his+leg&source=web&ots=Y9Xtn3nomR&sig=6shSn2cklYKVP1kBaC6nI0A_oko&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA39,M1)





----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/ask-sam-sam-smith-opens-his-mailbag-033012.html



----------------------------------------------------------

Pippen relates on how his game improved - Link (http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/jordanhof_pippen_090910.html)




http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-krausejordan090909





http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091030.html




http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091023.html





http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=5453558


WOW! Some pretty in-depth analysis there. Obviously Jordan is the GOAT. No one is disputing that. But lets not underrate Pippen here. At any point during Jordan's title runs, Pippen was a top 10 player in the NBA. Thats 91-98. Any of those years Pippen was at least a top 10 player in the league...maybe even higher some years. Jordan and Pippen were the greatest duo in NBA history...they truly were Batman and Robin. No dig at Pippen either...most importantly, Pippen knew his role and embraced it. He never tried to be "the man" and he never complained about touches. He knew he was the wing man and he was there to get the job done. No way Jordan wins 6 titles without him.

Patman
05-25-2012, 03:57 AM
While it's true that Kobe does get his share of calls compared to the average NBA player, he still does not get the royal treatment of Lebron, Wade, Durant, Rose or even Kevin Love for that matter. Kobe has won too many titles for the NBA to give him additional help anymore. It's all about building small market team now or teams that haven't won it all. That was what the new CBA was all about and what David Stern is all about. When Kobe had the incident in Colorado, he lost all his endorsements and with it any kind of superstar treatment from the league. I would say he gets all-star treatment rather than superstar treatment.

Could the Kobe doesn't get as much FTA not be a function of him being mostly a jumshooter that rarely goes inside or even into close range of the basket? Post up turnaround Fadeaways just don't draw as many fouls as drives to the hoop.

thekmp211
05-25-2012, 08:22 AM
I'm not sure I understand your comment .. Obviously Kobe is the best player on the Lakers.

sry misread yours totally agree

basketfan4life
05-25-2012, 08:48 AM
:laugh: Kobe is the king of superstar calls in the NBA. This only hurts your argument....

hahahahahaaaa, the king actually 2 kings of that calls are playing for your team. By FAR.

willabeast77
05-25-2012, 11:32 AM
Duncan. KG. LaMarcus Aldridge. There are definitely options.

Griffin making the second team is legit. He had better seasons than those players.

KB-Pau-DH2012
05-25-2012, 12:26 PM
Sure if you ignore efficiency

Yes, we all know how efficiency equates to championships and iconic status. You can only have a statue of yourself if you were efficient. You can only have your jersey retired if you're efficient. You can only enter the Naismith basketball Hall of Fame only if you were efficient. You can be regarded as a top 10 play of all-time only if you're efficient. Basically, you're absolute trash if you're not efficient. #chronzsystem

colinskik
05-25-2012, 12:39 PM
I'd take that 3rd team over the 1st or 2nd.

Patman
05-25-2012, 12:46 PM
Yes, we all know how efficiency equates to championships and iconic status. You can only have a statue of yourself if you were efficient. You can only have your jersey retired if you're efficient. You can only enter the Naismith basketball Hall of Fame only if you were efficient. You can be regarded as a top 10 play of all-time only if you're efficient. Basically, you're absolute trash if you're not efficient. #chronzsystem

Yes you only can be regarded as a top 10 player if you were efficient. Kobe will go down as a all time great because he could carry a big load while still being efficient and because he maintained a high level of play for so long. That said this season Kobe had 3rd most FGA/G in his career while posting career lows in TS% EFG% and outside of his Rookie Year ORTG. His WS/48 are the lowest since his 3rd season.

Chronz
05-25-2012, 01:22 PM
Yes, we all know how efficiency equates to championships and iconic status. You can only have a statue of yourself if you were efficient. You can only have your jersey retired if you're efficient. You can only enter the Naismith basketball Hall of Fame only if you were efficient. You can be regarded as a top 10 play of all-time only if you're efficient. Basically, you're absolute trash if you're not efficient. #chronzsystem

LOL duh. Look at the list of the greatest players to ever play, they were all efficient on at least 1 end of the court if not both.

Chronz
05-25-2012, 01:23 PM
Yes you only can be regarded as a top 10 player if you were efficient. Kobe will go down as a all time great because he could carry a big load while still being efficient and because he maintained a high level of play for so long. That said this season Kobe had 3rd most FGA/G in his career while posting career lows in TS% EFG% and outside of his Rookie Year ORTG. His WS/48 are the lowest since his 3rd season.

Kid doesnt know efficiency and usage go hand in hand. What a joke of an argument, he does this all the time with me. Watch him not respond

WadeKobe
05-25-2012, 01:54 PM
hahahahahaaaa, the king actually 2 kings of that calls are playing for your team. By FAR.


While it's true that Kobe does get his share of calls compared to the average NBA player, he still does not get the royal treatment of Lebron, Wade, Durant, Rose or even Kevin Love for that matter. Kobe has won too many titles for the NBA to give him additional help anymore. It's all about building small market team now or teams that haven't won it all. That was what the new CBA was all about and what David Stern is all about. When Kobe had the incident in Colorado, he lost all his endorsements and with it any kind of superstar treatment from the league. I would say he gets all-star treatment rather than superstar treatment.

lulz. You're joking, right? :laugh2:

WadeKobe
05-25-2012, 02:04 PM
Yes, we all know how efficiency equates to championships and iconic status. You can only have a statue of yourself if you were efficient. You can only have your jersey retired if you're efficient. You can only enter the Naismith basketball Hall of Fame only if you were efficient. You can be regarded as a top 10 play of all-time only if you're efficient. Basically, you're absolute trash if you're not efficient. #chronzsystem

Yes, efficiency leads to wins, wins lead to championships. This is just the reality of basketball, whether you like it or not. There is a reason LeBron has the best reg season winning percentage since 2007, because he's been the most efficient player in the game since 2007.

If you count ORB as extending possessions instead of "extra possessions", then you will end up within +/- 4 possessions of your opponent. How do you win? Easy..... be more efficient than the other team.... score more points per possession than the other team. There are two ways you contribute to this -

(1) scoring high ppp, by taking high percentage shots, not taking bad shots, passing to guys with high percentage shots, not turning the ball over, and getting rebounds, extending possessions and increasing your odds of scoring on possessions.
(2) Playing good defense and and forcing the other team to settle for low percentage shots, forcing turnovers, and getting rebounds to end possessions.

That really is how you win, whether you like it or not. Kobe has been a great player throughout his career, but he has also been lucky enough to play with some of the game's best big men throughout his career who have been able to bail him out of bad shots by getting a high percentage of offensive rebounds.

Knocking efficiency for some phantom "winning" is nonsense. You don't win randomly or out of context. You win by scoring more points per possession than your opponent.

KB-Pau-DH2012
05-25-2012, 03:12 PM
Kid doesnt know efficiency and usage go hand in hand. What a joke of an argument, he does this all the time with me. Watch him not respond

Hi. :)

KingOfSanJose
05-25-2012, 04:02 PM
Brian Scalabrine got snubbedddd :0

basketfan4life
05-25-2012, 05:14 PM
lulz. You're joking, right? :laugh2:

actually, if you are claiming that kobe is getting more favourable calls than lebron and wade, you must be joking and it's not really funny, if you are not joking then it is really funny.

WadeKobe
05-26-2012, 03:50 AM
actually, if you are claiming that kobe is getting more favourable calls than lebron and wade, you must be joking and it's not really funny, if you are not joking then it is really funny.

Kobe has always gotten more superstar calls, his whole career. Stop playin, kid.

JNoel
05-26-2012, 09:10 AM
Wade has always been underrated, he should have made first team, Kobe should have took second or third team considering he takes so many shots a game, Westbrook is overrated and taking Wades second team honors, dont get me started with Blake Griffin,Tony Parker deserved first team as well but I guess when your LA endorsed, you get more honors than other teams players do

JNoel
05-26-2012, 09:16 AM
actually, if you are claiming that kobe is getting more favourable calls than lebron and wade, you must be joking and it's not really funny, if you are not joking then it is really funny.

Why is everyone complaining about this? They take it hard to the rim and clearly get fouled, if anything they deserve more calls with what the "veteran" officials were calling in game 6. Kobe gets the calls for almost anything he does