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View Full Version : What would you do with D'Arnaud and JPA?



bartron_44
05-22-2012, 09:34 AM
I realize it is only a 16 game span, but in the Month of May JPA is hitting
.344/.365/1.070.



The addition of Yan Gomes means that we can let JPA DH now instead of just getting the day off when he needs to give his legs and throwing arm a break. He shouldn't need to catch as many games so his body should be able to hold up better. Combine that with the fact that he is hitting 5th now and he could possibly get an extra 100+ AB's when compared to 2011. He seems to be a run producing machine in the 5 hole with 8 RBI's over his first 5 games there. If he gets 100 AB's more then 2011, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see him hit 30 HR's with 100+ RBI's. After all he did hit 35 between Vegas and the majors in 2010, and 23 more his rookie season in the majors in just 443 AB's.
If he could learn how to take a walk once in a while then we could be looking at an all-star calibre hitter.

Is everyone still on the promote D'Arnaud and trade JPA bandwagon?

2009mvp
05-22-2012, 09:47 AM
Yes, yes I am. Not sure what's changed from winter to now, JP is what he is and that damn sure isn't a top-half of the lineup hitter.

North Yorker
05-22-2012, 09:49 AM
I realize it is only a 16 game span, but in the Month of May JPA is hitting
.344/.365/1.070.

Exactly.


The addition of Yan Gomes means that we can let JPA DH now instead of just getting the day off when he needs to give his legs and throwing arm a break.
I doubt Gomes becomes the primary back-up C. He doesn't know the staff.


If he could learn how to take a walk once in a while then we could be looking at an all-star calibre hitter.
Easier said than done.


Is everyone still on the promote D'Arnaud and trade JPA bandwagon?
Yes.


If anything, you sell high on JP after a possible 30 HR 100 RBI season. Some GM will drool all over those stats from a C Im sure.

JMac4PM
05-22-2012, 09:49 AM
gotta trade one of em...

LuckyLuke2
05-22-2012, 09:58 AM
Yes, yes I am. Not sure what's changed from winter to now, JP is what he is and that damn sure isn't a top-half of the lineup hitter.

He sure seems to be a top half hitter right now...

He's on fire at the moment, and he's been getting 2-3 hits every game for the past little while. Now, I am not saying that's going to continue but if it does, you can bet that the Jays hang on to him.

GrumpyOldMan
05-22-2012, 10:18 AM
I have heard that D'Arnaud is a far superior catcher defensively, but must admit to only seeing him a handful of times. If the hitting is at all comparable between the 2 I would take defense behind the plate. If D'Arnaud is our catcher for the coming years and JPA continues hitting well, we have to trade him while his stock is high, or find him another position.
As I stated, I haven't seen much of D'Arnaud. Is his defense a lot better than JPA's?

Bearclaw
05-22-2012, 10:21 AM
If anything, you sell high on JP after a possible 30 HR 100 RBI season. Some GM will drool all over those stats from a C Im sure.

What? If JPA has 30 Hr and 100 RBI season, we treasure him. FInd another top of the lineup hitter who will have those stats with his kind of contract.

bartron_44
05-22-2012, 10:34 AM
Exactly.


I doubt Gomes becomes the primary back-up C. He doesn't know the staff.


Easier said than done.


Yes.


If anything, you sell high on JP after a possible 30 HR 100 RBI season. Some GM will drool all over those stats from a C Im sure.


So you would rather go through the growing pains of yet another rookie catcher next year rather than let JPA continue to develop after he just hit 30 HR's and drove in over 100? What if he hits .300 like he did in 2008 and 2010 to go with 30 HR's and 100 RBI's? Would you really expect better then that from D'Arnaud....in his rookie season?


Also, I am not saying Gomes is going to be our primary backup catcher, but he is a 3rd guy in our lineup that can catch, so it allows JPA to DH when Mathis catches like he did last night. When JPA catches Gomes can either play 1B or DH (or sit). I think he could be a very valuable piece to this team if he can keep hitting, at least against left handed pitching. If used correctly Farrell has enough inter-changeable pieces to keep everyone reasonably fresh over 162.

ILDD
05-22-2012, 10:41 AM
I like JPA but if d'A continues hitting as he is doing then you have to trade one of them. Hacing two all-star caliber catchers is just not an efficient use of resources. Trading one of them could get a very nice piece back in return - someone who will hit better than either one but won't provide the same defensive value.

d'Arnaud looks a btter hitter and reports say he is also better defensively so I'd trade JPA and look to get someone to fill the hole at 1B or to sit at the top of the rotation. I'm not going to specualte who might be available but for a catcher like JPA (plus some prosects) you can get almost any player in the game.

Converged
05-22-2012, 10:44 AM
A month ago today was JPA was hitting .073, people were calling for him to be traded for a bag of baseballs and promote TDA. Now that he has had a good 3 weeks, people are saying he should be our permanent hitter in the 5th spot of the lineup and DHing regularly. If I have noticed anything on these boards over the years, it's that people bandwagon jump and overreact to players hot and cold streaks. In all likelyhood, JPA likely sits somewhere between his horrid April and his fantastic May numbers.

2009mvp
05-22-2012, 10:53 AM
Stupid question: where did all this ridiculous .300/30 HR talk come from? He's still hitting .260 something with his typical sub .300 OBP on the year, right? I mean, is it any less ridiculous for me to say that going forward we should expect that he's the .500 OPS guy he was in April than it is for you to say he's the 1.000+ OPS guy he's been in May? This is a guy with tons of power, pretty clear contact issues and atrocious plate discipline. Adds up to an above average catcher offensively, which even with his shaky (and that's probably being kind) defense makes for a pretty solid ballplayer overall, but let's not go making him out to be way more than he is based on a month of hot hitting.

ILDD
05-22-2012, 11:02 AM
Stupid question: where did all this ridiculous .300/30 HR talk come from? He's still hitting .260 something with his typical sub .300 OBP on the year, right? I mean, is it any less ridiculous for me to say that going forward we should expect that he's the .500 OPS guy he was in April than it is for you to say he's the 1.000+ OPS guy he's been in May? This is a guy with tons of power, pretty clear contact issues and atrocious plate discipline. Adds up to an above average catcher offensively, which even with his shaky (and that's probably being kind) defense makes for a pretty solid ballplayer overall, but let's not go making him out to be way more than he is based on a month of hot hitting.

I think he's going to settle into someone with a 0.260 BA, 0.300 OBP with a good amount of power - making him a solid offensive catcher. Defense will be OK and will improve with experience, he handles a pitching staff well and is an outstanding character guy. Personally the character bit is over-rated but some GM's will over-pay for that player.

Lavy16
05-22-2012, 11:04 AM
The only way JPA hits .300 is if he is playing beer league ball.

bartron_44
05-22-2012, 11:08 AM
What? If JPA has 30 Hr and 100 RBI season, we treasure him. FInd another top of the lineup hitter who will have those stats with his kind of contract.

exactly!

How many catchers in MLB hit 30 HR's last year: 1 (Napoli)
How many catchers in MLB had 100 RBI's last year: 1 (VMart)
How many catchers hit 30 HR's with 100 RBI's last year: 0
How many qualifying catchers in MLB had an OPS of .800: 6


How many players in the AL had 100+ RBI's last year: 11
How many players in the AL had 30+ HR's last year: 12
How many players in the AL hit 30+ HR's with 100+ RBI's last year: 7

How many players in MLB had 100+ RBI's last year: 17
How many players in MLB had 30+ HR's last year: 24
How many players in MLB hit 30 Hr's with 100+ RBI's last year: 12


The Yankees almost had 3 (Cano only had 28 HR's), and the Red Sox came pretty close to having 3 too but Papi only had 97 RBI's and Gonzalez only hit 27 HR's.

We could possibly have 3 this year with Bautista,EE and JPA. That hasn't happened since the year 2000...

Kelly Gruber
05-22-2012, 11:15 AM
I don't see a rush. You don't go into a season with a rookie catcher running the show. Look at the Reds with Hanigan and Mesoraco. You need a vet around at that position. Best case I see is keep them both next year and see what happens over the course of a season. Kind of what the Reds are doing with their prized catching prospect. Let him learn the ropes until he takes the spot away. You can't hand anything to a catcher until you know without a doubt that they are ready.

This is a position where you MUST be patient and I'm confident the Jays will be. Does anyone really see trading JP and going with d'Arnaud and Gomes next year as a serious option?

Converged
05-22-2012, 11:16 AM
I think he's going to settle into someone with a 0.260 BA, 0.300 OBP with a good amount of power - making him a solid offensive catcher. Defense will be OK and will improve with experience, he handles a pitching staff well and is an outstanding character guy. Personally the character bit is over-rated but some GM's will over-pay for that player.

This x100

KaiserSose
05-22-2012, 11:17 AM
I realize it is only a 16 game span, but in the Month of May JPA is hitting
.344/.365/1.070.



The addition of Yan Gomes means that we can let JPA DH now instead of just getting the day off when he needs to give his legs and throwing arm a break. He shouldn't need to catch as many games so his body should be able to hold up better. Combine that with the fact that he is hitting 5th now and he could possibly get an extra 100+ AB's when compared to 2011. He seems to be a run producing machine in the 5 hole with 8 RBI's over his first 5 games there. If he gets 100 AB's more then 2011, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see him hit 30 HR's with 100+ RBI's. After all he did hit 35 between Vegas and the majors in 2010, and 23 more his rookie season in the majors in just 443 AB's.
If he could learn how to take a walk once in a while then we could be looking at an all-star calibre hitter.

Is everyone still on the promote D'Arnaud and trade JPA bandwagon?

Bwahahahahahaha! That is all.

Tmath
05-22-2012, 11:21 AM
I don't see a rush. You don't go into a season with a rookie catcher running the show. Look at the Reds with Hanigan and Mesoraco. You need a vet around at that position. Best case I see is keep them both next year and see what happens over the course of a season. Kind of what the Reds are doing with their prized catching prospect. Let him learn the ropes until he takes the spot away. You can't hand anything to a catcher until you know without a doubt that they are ready.

This is a position where you MUST be patient and I'm confident the Jays will be. Does anyone really see trading JP and going with d'Arnaud and Gomes next year as a serious option?

This.

wamco
05-22-2012, 11:22 AM
do nothing until next year

Farsight
05-22-2012, 11:25 AM
exactly!

How many catchers in MLB hit 30 HR's last year: 1 (Napoli)
How many catchers in MLB had 100 RBI's last year: 1 (VMart)
How many catchers hit 30 HR's with 100 RBI's last year: 0
How many qualifying catchers in MLB had an OPS of .800: 6


How many players in the AL had 100+ RBI's last year: 11
How many players in the AL had 30+ HR's last year: 12
How many players in the AL hit 30+ HR's with 100+ RBI's last year: 7

How many players in MLB had 100+ RBI's last year: 17
How many players in MLB had 30+ HR's last year: 24
How many players in MLB hit 30 Hr's with 100+ RBI's last year: 12


The Yankees almost had 3 (Cano only had 28 HR's), and the Red Sox came pretty close to having 3 too but Papi only had 97 RBI's and Gonzalez only hit 27 HR's.

We could possibly have 3 this year with Bautista,EE and JPA. That hasn't happened since the year 2000...
You know that RBI's are one of the worst stat to evaluate players as it is dependent on who gets on base in front of you, and how many opportunities you have to drive them in.

No doubt is it nice to have 30 home runs (which shows a player has good power), but it does not necessarily mean that the player is creating runs which is the goal of the player offensively. Look at Adam Lind last year, he had 26 home runs, yet he was a below replacement level player.

Out of 26 catchers last year with atleast 300 at bats, Arencibia had a wOBA of 309, which was 19th on the list, meaning that offensively, he was in the bottom 3rd.

In all honestly, i think JPA will probably average a wOBA of 320-330 (middle of the pact offensively) but once you factor in all facets of his game, he is definitely not an all star catcher

bartron_44
05-22-2012, 11:35 AM
Stupid question: where did all this ridiculous .300/30 HR talk come from? He's still hitting .260 something with his typical sub .300 OBP on the year, right? I mean, is it any less ridiculous for me to say that going forward we should expect that he's the .500 OPS guy he was in April than it is for you to say he's the 1.000+ OPS guy he's been in May? This is a guy with tons of power, pretty clear contact issues and atrocious plate discipline. Adds up to an above average catcher offensively, which even with his shaky (and that's probably being kind) defense makes for a pretty solid ballplayer overall, but let's not go making him out to be way more than he is based on a month of hot hitting.

It came from him being on pace to hit over 30 Hr's, and the fact that he has hit over 30 Hr's as well as over .300 in a season in the past. As good as D'Arnaud looks at the plate this season, don't forget JPA also torched the FSL in 2008, was hurt a good chunk of 2009 and played with bad vision, and that he torched the PCL in 2010. When healthy he hit for a very good average in the minors, and in 2010 he drew 38 BB's with only 85 K's. D'Arnuad is on pace for fewer walks,HR's and 2B's, and his stellar OPS in May still isn't as good as what JPA did in 2010....for a full season.

I am not trying to say JPA can keep a 1.000 OPS, but I do think he may be able to hit 30 HR's, drive in 100+ and hit for a MUCH better average then he showed last year. ..Which would make him a very solid hitter, and one of the most productive hitting catchers in the game...

Bob_at_york
05-22-2012, 11:35 AM
I really like JP but if Travis is as good as everyone says then you sell high with JP. Hell, trade him before the deadline if you want and give Gomes some starts (40 games) behind the plate just to see what you got in him.

LuckyLuke2
05-22-2012, 11:41 AM
I don't see a rush. You don't go into a season with a rookie catcher running the show. Look at the Reds with Hanigan and Mesoraco. You need a vet around at that position. Best case I see is keep them both next year and see what happens over the course of a season. Kind of what the Reds are doing with their prized catching prospect. Let him learn the ropes until he takes the spot away. You can't hand anything to a catcher until you know without a doubt that they are ready.

This is a position where you MUST be patient and I'm confident the Jays will be. Does anyone really see trading JP and going with d'Arnaud and Gomes next year as a serious option?

Definitely agree.

I think this is a very good problem for the Blue Jays to have, one where they haven't had in a long time. The more competitive the spots are the better. I say let D'Arnaud play a full year in AAA... and just see where it goes from there.

I wouldn't want to throw Travis into the fire by dealing JP that just wouldn't make any sense.

LuckyLuke2
05-22-2012, 11:43 AM
I really like JP but if Travis is as good as everyone says then you sell high with JP. Hell, trade him before the deadline if you want and give Gomes some starts (40 games) behind the plate just to see what you got in him.

Why do that though? That's taking a risk you don't need to take.

Why deal JP at the deadline...? So you're saying just throw in Gomes at the dish instead of JP... and just go into next season with D'Arnaud as your full time catcher?

D'Arnaud has only played half a season of AAA ball. Gomes has played 3 games in the majors... I just don't see why trading JP has to happen right now. Trading him would be dumb because then there are holes. You wait until the players are ready to make the leap and even when they are a little experience behind the dish never hurt anyone.

Bob_at_york
05-22-2012, 12:02 PM
Why do that though? That's taking a risk you don't need to take.

Why deal JP at the deadline...? So you're saying just throw in Gomes at the dish instead of JP... and just go into next season with D'Arnaud as your full time catcher?
If D'Arnaud has earned it, yes.


D'Arnaud has only played half a season of AAA ball. Gomes has played 3 games in the majors... I just don't see why trading JP has to happen right now. Trading him would be dumb because then there are holes. You wait until the players are ready to make the leap and even when they are a little experience behind the dish never hurt anyone.
You want to trade JP while his value is high. If we had traded Lind a couple of years ago we could have gotten a lot more for him then we could get now. You don't want to wait too long.

bartron_44
05-22-2012, 12:03 PM
You know that RBI's are one of the worst stat to evaluate players as it is dependent on who gets on base in front of you, and how many opportunities you have to drive them in.

No doubt is it nice to have 30 home runs (which shows a player has good power), but it does not necessarily mean that the player is creating runs which is the goal of the player offensively. Look at Adam Lind last year, he had 26 home runs, yet he was a below replacement level player.

Out of 26 catchers last year with atleast 300 at bats, Arencibia had a wOBA of 309, which was 19th on the list, meaning that offensively, he was in the bottom 3rd.

In all honestly, i think JPA will probably average a wOBA of 320-330 (middle of the pact offensively) but once you factor in all facets of his game, he is definitely not an all star catcher

If a guy is hitting HR's and driving them in when he gets his chances, then he is productive...and I am sorry but that is how most catchers are judged at the plate. No one is expecting them to hit for a high average, that is why Joe Mauer was worth so much money to Minnesota. Sure the numbers from last year look bad for JPA, but that's because it was a down year for him. His OPS in 2010 was .986, in 2008 his OPS was .850, and he had a career minor league OPS of .827. (NOTE: please don't bring up 2009 when he played with bad vision and some pretty serious injuries)

To drive in 100 runs, you normally need to be one of the better hitters on your team..as that's who gets the most chances. Sure you can't say the guy with the most RBI's was the most productive hitter while he was in the batters box, but not too many guys luck into 100+ RBI's. If a guy has 100+ it shows that he is able to drive them in consistently when given the opportunity. As the numbers above suggest, it is not a very easy thing to do. Not every team in baseball last year could boast a 30+ HR hitter, and not every team in baseball could boast a hitter with 100 RBI's...

There is hitting, and then there is situation hitting. JPA really seems to be thriving at situation hitting this year. He is hitting .600 with an OPS of 1.300 with a runner on 3rd with less then 2 out. He is hitting .385 with an OPS of 1.462 with runners on first and second, .667 with an OPS of 1.333 with the bases loaded and overall he is hitting .345 with an OPS of 1.168 with RISP.
Put a runner on base at all and his OPS is over .950. It's like he smells blood in the water. I can understand why he got so pissed earlier this year when Farrell pinch hit for him in a run producing situation..

2009mvp
05-22-2012, 12:07 PM
It came from him being on pace to hit over 30 Hr's, and the fact that he has hit over 30 Hr's as well as over .300 in a season in the past. As good as D'Arnaud looks at the plate this season, don't forget JPA also torched the FSL in 2008, was hurt a good chunk of 2009 and played with bad vision, and that he torched the PCL in 2010. When healthy he hit for a very good average in the minors, and in 2010 he drew 38 BB's with only 85 K's. D'Arnuad is on pace for fewer walks,HR's and 2B's, and his stellar OPS in May still isn't as good as what JPA did in 2010....for a full season.

I am not trying to say JPA can keep a 1.000 OPS, but I do think he may be able to hit 30 HR's, drive in 100+ and hit for a MUCH better average then he showed last year. ..Which would make him a very solid hitter, and one of the most productive hitting catchers in the game...

Awesome, let's look at Sally League stats then make excuses for JP completely ******** the bed in his first stint at AAA in one of the most hitter friendly environments in the bigs. And yeah, he can hit for a much better average than he did last year, since he barely managed to exceed the .200 mark all year. Also, can we drop the RBI schtick? Christ is it still 1991?

LuckyLuke2
05-22-2012, 12:27 PM
I agree because his value is high I just don't know if dealing him now helps the team out all that much. If the Jays are in position to make a playoff run, then going into it with D'Arnaud with no MLB experience compared to JP who does have some, would be more risky I think.

North Yorker
05-22-2012, 12:34 PM
JPA could be a big trade chip in the offseason to help get that top of the rotation SP or middle of the order bat.

TdA has been hyped to do everything better than JPA except hitting for power. It's be wise to sell high on him when you have the best C spec in baseball waiting in the wings.

alistar
05-22-2012, 12:34 PM
It came from him being on pace to hit over 30 Hr's, and the fact that he has hit over 30 Hr's as well as over .300 in a season in the past. As good as D'Arnaud looks at the plate this season, don't forget JPA also torched the FSL in 2008, was hurt a good chunk of 2009 and played with bad vision, and that he torched the PCL in 2010. When healthy he hit for a very good average in the minors, and in 2010 he drew 38 BB's with only 85 K's. D'Arnuad is on pace for fewer walks,HR's and 2B's, and his stellar OPS in May still isn't as good as what JPA did in 2010....for a full season.

I am not trying to say JPA can keep a 1.000 OPS, but I do think he may be able to hit 30 HR's, drive in 100+ and hit for a MUCH better average then he showed last year. ..Which would make him a very solid hitter, and one of the most productive hitting catchers in the game...

If htiting for power and average in the PCL even had a remote correlation with success in the majors, shouldn't David Cooper be the next Jimmie Foxx?

Bob_at_york
05-22-2012, 12:38 PM
I agree because his value is high I just don't know if dealing him now helps the team out all that much. If the Jays are in position to make a playoff run, then going into it with D'Arnaud with no MLB experience compared to JP who does have some, would be more risky I think.

You aren't taking into account the pitcher or 1st baseman that we would get in return for JP. Mathis as bad as he is with the bat with some Gomes on the side, can hold down the fort for the rest of the season.

Farsight
05-22-2012, 12:40 PM
If a guy is hitting HR's and driving them in when he gets his chances, then he is productive...and I am sorry but that is how most catchers are judged at the plate. No one is expecting them to hit for a high average, that is why Joe Mauer was worth so much money to Minnesota. Sure the numbers from last year look bad for JPA, but that's because it was a down year for him. His OPS in 2010 was .986, in 2008 his OPS was .850, and he had a career minor league OPS of .827. (NOTE: please don't bring up 2009 when he played with bad vision and some pretty serious injuries)

To drive in 100 runs, you normally need to be one of the better hitters on your team..as that's who gets the most chances. Sure you can't say the guy with the most RBI's was the most productive hitter while he was in the batters box, but not too many guys luck into 100+ RBI's. If a guy has 100+ it shows that he is able to drive them in consistently when given the opportunity. As the numbers above suggest, it is not a very easy thing to do. Not every team in baseball last year could boast a 30+ HR hitter, and not every team in baseball could boast a hitter with 100 RBI's...

There is hitting, and then there is situation hitting. JPA really seems to be thriving at situation hitting this year. He is hitting .600 with an OPS of 1.300 with a runner on 3rd with less then 2 out. He is hitting .385 with an OPS of 1.462 with runners on first and second, .667 with an OPS of 1.333 with the bases loaded and overall he is hitting .345 with an OPS of 1.168 with RISP.
Put a runner on base at all and his OPS is over .950. It's like he smells blood in the water. I can understand why he got so pissed earlier this year when Farrell pinch hit for him in a run producing situation..
No one is disputing that Arencibia had a good minor league career, but it does not always translate well from the minors to the majors. There is a reason why scouts never raved about him, like they do with D'Arnaud

Arencibia as many explained has contact issues and has proven so far in the minors and majors that he has issues getting on base. He strikes out over 25% of the time (in the majors) , which is bad, but is made even worse due to the fact that he only walks 6.4% of the time. He is simply not getting on base, hindering his runs create (which is the primary objective of all offensive players) You dont have to hit for high average to be valuable offensively. The goal of the player is to create runs (as i mentioned in my other post as I referred to wOBA)

If you really want to look at clutchness, WPA (Win probability added) is probably the best metric to do so. It measures essentially the importance of certain hits during certain times. A home run in the 3rd inning of a blow out would be less valuable than a home run in the 9th inning of a tied game - essentially it measures clutchness

In actuality this year he has been pretty good, as his WPA is .39 which means hes on pace for a WPA of close to 2 (above average), where as last year he was -2, which essentially means he was pretty poor

No one is saying that JPA is a horrible catcher, but in the grand scheme of things, offensively he is average compared to other catchers, but once you factor in other aspects of his game, hes not an all star

StayOnBoard
05-22-2012, 12:51 PM
I'd trade JPA tomorrow if we could get a solid middle of the order bat in the package....

Hell - scratch tomorrow, I'd trade him before the Rays game tonight. Assuming the package netted us a legit hitter.

This forum is SO freaking funny. The guy has a horrible April and everyone wants to trade him for a bag of balls.... he has 2-3 good weeks and now everyone thinks he's a mainstay in the lineup for the next 10 years. Ive never seen such knee-jerk reactions in my life.

mike_noodles
05-22-2012, 12:53 PM
I don't know how anyone can vote anything other than to keep them both right now. We don't know if TDA can even hit big league pitching yet. And with JP mashing right now, how do you take him out of our lineup.

The real question is, why the hell aren't more people concerned with that bum that plays CF for us?

2009mvp
05-22-2012, 12:55 PM
^^Eric Thames plays LF

Krylian
05-22-2012, 12:57 PM
Where's the 'trade them both' option?

darius
05-22-2012, 01:05 PM
I think JPA might end up with great offensive stats. Certainly 30 HR and RBI is in the realm of possibility.

If that happens, I see a Napoli role for JPA. Playing DH, C and maybe even 1B in 2013. In doing so we can phase in D'arnaud to become our 120+ games as catcher in 2013.

I think at this stage JPA in his role is more plausible than Lind making a heroic comeback. The fly in this ointment are both Vlad and Gomes. I think Vlad will not be on the team in 2013. So I'll eliminate him from the equation. I really like Gomes, but in my scenario for JPA, Gomes might be sort of redundant, other than he can spell Lawrie at 3rd base, too. And them there's E5. Essentially another corner player.

I guess discounting Gomes and Vlad for 2013, I'd like to see D'arnaud take the majority of rep at catcher, and then E5 and JPA can rotate between DH and 1B, with JPA playing backup catcher, too.

In sum, I think we make every effort to keep both. JPA's offense may become elite sooner than later, and D'arnaud might evolve into an all-star catcher. Ad they are both (sort of) homegrown. It'd be great for the farm system, showing the youngsters that we value our own players, and will continue to reward based on performance.

darius
05-22-2012, 01:08 PM
I don't know how anyone can vote anything other than to keep them both right now. We don't know if TDA can even hit big league pitching yet. And with JP mashing right now, how do you take him out of our lineup.

The real question is, why the hell aren't more people concerned with that bum that plays CF for us?

If that bum still sucks by the time Gose is ready, he's gonzo. Why do anything else at the moment? His defense is very solid and he still may get hot again. There are other concerns in my opinion. Like Pat Table has said, you have to sometimes give up some offensive production for a strong middle defense, catcher, 2B, and CF. we're lucky in that two of those positions are really producing. Can't have it all.

StayOnBoard
05-22-2012, 01:09 PM
I think JPA might end up with great offensive stats. Certainly 30 HR and RBI is in the realm of possibility.

If that happens, I see a Napoli role for JPA. Playing DH, C and maybe even 1B in 2013. In doing so we can phase in D'arnaud to become our 120+ games as catcher in 2013.

I think at this stage JPA in his role is more plausible than Lind making a heroic comeback. The fly in this ointment are both Vlad and Gomes. I think Vlad will not be on the team in 2013. So I'll eliminate him from the equation. I really like Gomes, but in my scenario for JPA, Gomes might be sort of redundant, other than he can spell Lawrie at 3rd base, too. And them there's E5. Essentially another corner player.

I guess discounting Gomes and Vlad for 2013, I'd like to see D'arnaud take the majority of rep at catcher, and then E5 and JPA can rotate between DH and 1B, with JPA playing backup catcher, too.

In sum, I think we make every effort to keep both. JPA's offense may become elite sooner than later, and D'arnaud might evolve into an all-star catcher. Ad they are both (sort of) homegrown. It'd be great for the farm system, showing the youngsters that we value our own players, and will continue to reward based on performance.

Im trying to figure out how? A guy who can't get on base is really not an elite hitter.... he's Rod Barajas v2.0 - a guy with power, but horrible average and on-base skills. If JPA was a first baseman he'd be worse than terrible.... the fact that he's a catcher REALLY helps his value.

I don't hate the guy, I just think he is what he is.... and if I could get high trade value for him, I'd happily trade him while his value is high.

North Yorker
05-22-2012, 01:11 PM
The real question is, why the hell aren't more people concerned with that bum that plays CF for us?

Rasmus has been incredibly unlucky this season. As I mentioned last night, he has the highest LD% on the team, so he's making a lot of good contact, along with playing a great CF. It's only a matter of time before those hits start falling (like they did last night).

Converged
05-22-2012, 01:20 PM
If a guy is hitting HR's and driving them in when he gets his chances, then he is productive...and I am sorry but that is how most catchers are judged at the plate. No one is expecting them to hit for a high average, that is why Joe Mauer was worth so much money to Minnesota. Sure the numbers from last year look bad for JPA, but that's because it was a down year for him. His OPS in 2010 was .986, in 2008 his OPS was .850, and he had a career minor league OPS of .827. (NOTE: please don't bring up 2009 when he played with bad vision and some pretty serious injuries)

To drive in 100 runs, you normally need to be one of the better hitters on your team..as that's who gets the most chances. Sure you can't say the guy with the most RBI's was the most productive hitter while he was in the batters box, but not too many guys luck into 100+ RBI's. If a guy has 100+ it shows that he is able to drive them in consistently when given the opportunity. As the numbers above suggest, it is not a very easy thing to do. Not every team in baseball last year could boast a 30+ HR hitter, and not every team in baseball could boast a hitter with 100 RBI's...

There is hitting, and then there is situation hitting. JPA really seems to be thriving at situation hitting this year. He is hitting .600 with an OPS of 1.300 with a runner on 3rd with less then 2 out. He is hitting .385 with an OPS of 1.462 with runners on first and second, .667 with an OPS of 1.333 with the bases loaded and overall he is hitting .345 with an OPS of 1.168 with RISP.
Put a runner on base at all and his OPS is over .950. It's like he smells blood in the water. I can understand why he got so pissed earlier this year when Farrell pinch hit for him in a run producing situation..

Seriously? Mauer had a .365 BA with a .444 OBP and a 1.000+ OPS.

I would take Mauer's 2010 numbers with 9HR, .402 OBP, and .871 OPS over JPA's 30HR and sub .300 OBP with subpar defense any day.

Converged
05-22-2012, 01:22 PM
Rasmus has been incredibly unlucky this season. As I mentioned last night, he has the highest LD% on the team, so he's making a lot of good contact, along with playing a great CF. It's only a matter of time before those hits start falling (like they did last night).

Agreed. If you miss a lot of Jays games and only look at the box scores, Rasmus has looked terrible. However, I have watched probably 90% of the games this season and Rasmus has looked much better than his numbers reflect. Thames, however...

koreancabbage
05-22-2012, 01:25 PM
trade while the value is high. no doubt about it. we have assets that can come up and take his place easily. If he (or part of a larger package) can net us a #1 or #2 pitcher or a legit middle of the order bat, i'm all for it. Arencibia is not that guy- sure, he's on a hot streak right now, but thats about it.

the only thing he has going for him to stay as a Jay long term is his character and intangibles (fan fav and other stuff i don't know he has *shrugs*)

craigerlee
05-22-2012, 01:51 PM
I think it really depends on what you can get for him. If you can't get a potential #2 or #3 starter or a middle of the order bat with a few years of control in package with him, I don't really see the point in trading him. He's not too bad against LHP, so I don't see why you can't teach him to play some 1B and then he can play C/1B/DH against LHP and be the backup catcher. Then just find him a good platoon mate and I think he could still be pretty valuable to this team even with D'Arnaud as the full time catcher.

I know the Diamondbacks are looking for a long term catcher, if possible I'd love to package JPA away with some other prospects and maybe land Skaggs.

Krylian
05-22-2012, 02:10 PM
I'd trade JPA tomorrow if we could get a solid middle of the order bat in the package....

Hell - scratch tomorrow, I'd trade him before the Rays game tonight. Assuming the package netted us a legit hitter.

This forum is SO freaking funny. The guy has a horrible April and everyone wants to trade him for a bag of balls.... he has 2-3 good weeks and now everyone thinks he's a mainstay in the lineup for the next 10 years. Ive never seen such knee-jerk reactions in my life.

Hi Kettle! You're black.

You just said that JPA sucked balls in April...and now you want a middle of the order bat back in a package?

JPA has marginal value and is not what other teams are looking for if they're moving a significant hitter in return.

craigerlee
05-22-2012, 02:23 PM
Hi Kettle! You're black.

You just said that JPA sucked balls in April...and now you want a middle of the order bat back in a package?

JPA has marginal value and is not what other teams are looking for if they're moving a significant hitter in return.

I think you missed the word package, it was pretty important

bartron_44
05-22-2012, 02:29 PM
Seriously? Mauer had a .365 BA with a .444 OBP and a 1.000+ OPS.

I would take Mauer's 2010 numbers with 9HR, .402 OBP, and .871 OPS over JPA's 30HR and sub .300 OBP with subpar defense any day.

Exactly why he was worth a foolish amount of money. The Twins didn't even leave him behind the plate his bats so good. I am saying a catcher like Mauer is extremely rare, and you can't expect other catchers to post an OPS over 1.000.

ktownguy31
05-22-2012, 02:30 PM
I have heard that D'Arnaud is a far superior catcher defensively, but must admit to only seeing him a handful of times. If the hitting is at all comparable between the 2 I would take defense behind the plate. If D'Arnaud is our catcher for the coming years and JPA continues hitting well, we have to trade him while his stock is high, or find him another position.
As I stated, I haven't seen much of D'Arnaud. Is his defense a lot better than JPA's?

i heard he isnt ready defensively,they were talking about it last week during a game

StayOnBoard
05-22-2012, 02:39 PM
Hi Kettle! You're black.

You just said that JPA sucked balls in April...and now you want a middle of the order bat back in a package?

JPA has marginal value and is not what other teams are looking for if they're moving a significant hitter in return.

I didn't realize I said one for one deal for a stud player. Hmm.... OBVIOUSLY it would have to be a package deal.

See, kinda what Im talking about with knee-jerk reactions.... :)

ILDD
05-22-2012, 02:44 PM
Rasmus has been incredibly unlucky this season. As I mentioned last night, he has the highest LD% on the team, so he's making a lot of good contact, along with playing a great CF. It's only a matter of time before those hits start falling (like they did last night).


Totally agree. He's doing everything right, just getting unlucky right now. Sooner or later that will turn around and he'll start getting many, many more hits.

Even with his poor offensive contribution so far his defense makes up for a good portion of this. Thames' value is all tied up in offence so he really has to produce.

LuckyLuke2
05-22-2012, 02:54 PM
You aren't taking into account the pitcher or 1st baseman that we would get in return for JP. Mathis as bad as he is with the bat with some Gomes on the side, can hold down the fort for the rest of the season.

I think the Jays can land a pitcher with their prospects alone... pitching prospects I mean. They have a ton of them for either a 1B or even SP.

Not saying JP wouldn't be dealt for a SP or 1B, but I am sure AA could do it without having to trade him.

LuckyLuke2
05-22-2012, 02:57 PM
i heard he isnt ready defensively,they were talking about it last week during a game

Gregg Zaun was saying that D'Arnaud is not ready for the MLB and that people need to relax a bit on what they are saying he can become.

He's a good prospect but not great. (That's what Zaun said)

So, I mean I don't know.

Bob_at_york
05-22-2012, 03:09 PM
I think the Jays can land a pitcher with their prospects alone... pitching prospects I mean. They have a ton of them for either a 1B or even SP.

Not saying JP wouldn't be dealt for a SP or 1B, but I am sure AA could do it without having to trade him.

I was assuming to get the kind of player we are hoping for, we would need to include a prospect with JP. I wasn't thinking he was the only player we were offering.

Twitchy
05-22-2012, 04:02 PM
I see the concept of selling high isn't very popular around here. Yes, get rid of Arencibia if it nets you a good player and make D'Arnaud the catcher. Arencibia's bat isn't good enough for DH/1B, and D'Arnaud is a much better C than Arencibia. So going forward Arencibia doesn't (or shouldn't) have a spot on the team.

The sad thing is, even with Arencibia's awesome May he's only the 12th best offensive catcher by wRC+ (think OPS+ just with wOBA instead of OPS). When you factor in his sub-par defence, he's average at best. There's no point in keeping him if you can flip him for something useful.

Krylian
05-22-2012, 04:04 PM
I think you missed the word package, it was pretty important

No. I said package.

What I also said that JPA's value is nothing to write home about IMO and his inclusion in a package will not tip any scales.

Krylian
05-22-2012, 04:05 PM
I didn't realize I said one for one deal for a stud player. Hmm.... OBVIOUSLY it would have to be a package deal.

See, kinda what Im talking about with knee-jerk reactions.... :)

Do you not see the work 'package' in my response? His inclusion will not make much of a difference in any package.

craigerlee
05-22-2012, 04:06 PM
No. I said package.

What I also said that JPA's value is nothing to write home about IMO and his inclusion in a package will not tip any scales.

Pretty sure it would considering the scarcity of offensive catchers with upside and control.

Krylian
05-22-2012, 04:09 PM
Pretty sure it would considering the scarcity of offensive catchers with upside and control.

Well, that's where we differ then.

I think JPA is what he is. Average defensive catcher at best, with good power, but little else to offer offensively. I don't think his value is anything that you can build a package around for a significant piece in return.

We'll probably find out eventually what he can garner in a trade I'm thinking.

craigerlee
05-22-2012, 04:17 PM
Well, that's where we differ then.

I think JPA is what he is. Average defensive catcher at best, with good power, but little else to offer offensively. I don't think his value is anything that you can build a package around for a significant piece in return.

We'll probably find out eventually what he can garner in a trade I'm thinking.

Have a look around the league and see what teams are penciling at catcher: Saltalamacchia, Doumit, Soto, Suzuki, Buck, Iannetta, Barajas, Castro, etc. I think JP would look pretty attractive to a few teams especially with 4 years of control remaining after this season and the possibility that he can be better than what he is right now.

nithanyo
05-22-2012, 04:20 PM
With jp's stock high it might be a good idea to work a trade

Pens_fan_21
05-22-2012, 04:33 PM
What is it with ppl in Toronto - they see they have great players so their first (and sometimes only) thought is to trade the guys. Imagine for a second that you kept them both and when they are both there you were able to find them both at bats...By all accounts you would have two guys (by the way you all talk) that could be all stars on the Jays...but then all I read is trade them! I mean I don't get it, I really don't. My thought is keep 'em both. I wonder if the Washington threads ever had trade harper and strasberg posts...geez :p

craigerlee
05-22-2012, 04:38 PM
What is it with ppl in Toronto - they see they have great players so their first (and sometimes only) thought is to trade the guys. Imagine for a second that you kept them both and when they are both there you were able to find them both at bats...By all accounts you would have two guys (by the way you all talk) that could be all stars on the Jays...but then all I read is trade them! I mean I don't get it, I really don't. My thought is keep 'em both. I wonder if the Washington threads ever had trade harper and strasberg posts...geez :p

Seriously? That's such a stupid comparison cause its pretty evident Strasburg and Harper don't play the same position and Strasburg has zero effect on how much playing time Harper gets. Its like if you had two mini vans, wouldn't it make sense to sell one?

Toxeryll
05-22-2012, 04:45 PM
Arencibia: Age 23: 5.2 BB%, 22.8 K%, .208 ISO
_________Age 24: 8.3 BB%, 18.5 K%, .325 ISO

D'arnaud: Age 23: 7.7 BB%, 15.4 K%, .209 ISO

Obviously, D'arnaud is the more advanced hitter but JPA has more power. When you factor in D'arnaud's superior defense, trading JPA while his stock is high is a no-brainer move.

nithanyo
05-22-2012, 04:45 PM
Seriously? That's such a stupid comparison cause its pretty evident Strasburg and Harper don't play the same position and Strasburg has zero effect on how much playing time Harper gets. Its like if you had two mini vans, wouldn't it make sense to sell one?

I think he's talking about trading top prospect thing. But id still trade D'arnaud if Felix was involved

Bluejay_Repeat2
05-22-2012, 05:18 PM
I think he's talking about trading top prospect thing. But id still trade D'arnaud if Felix was involved

Id trade lawrie for Hernandez

nithanyo
05-22-2012, 05:24 PM
Id trade lawrie for Hernandez

I think anyone would. Nats would probably deal Harper

StayOnBoard
05-22-2012, 06:45 PM
Do you not see the work 'package' in my response? His inclusion will not make much of a difference in any package.

See below:


Have a look around the league and see what teams are penciling at catcher: Saltalamacchia, Doumit, Soto, Suzuki, Buck, Iannetta, Barajas, Castro, etc. I think JP would look pretty attractive to a few teams especially with 4 years of control remaining after this season and the possibility that he can be better than what he is right now.

This ^


With jp's stock high it might be a good idea to work a trade

Completely agree


What is it with ppl in Toronto - they see they have great players so their first (and sometimes only) thought is to trade the guys. Imagine for a second that you kept them both and when they are both there you were able to find them both at bats...By all accounts you would have two guys (by the way you all talk) that could be all stars on the Jays...but then all I read is trade them! I mean I don't get it, I really don't. My thought is keep 'em both. I wonder if the Washington threads ever had trade harper and strasberg posts...geez :p

Really? You're comparing D'Arnaud and JPA to Harper and Stras? One who is even a PITCHER? How does Strasburg have any affect on the playing time Harper is getting??

I guess - maybe your logic is Strasburg is a better hitter than JPA is? Cause that I could agree with.... before you think Im being sarcastic, Strasburg has (in limited at-bats) a .375 .baa and .750 SLG in only a handful of plate appearances. I don't think he's walked yet and he strikes out a ton, but I think the same can be said about JPA :D LOL

mtf
05-22-2012, 09:16 PM
Admittedly, I did not read this entire thread so someone may have already pointed this out, but Alex Anthopoulos has already acknowledged that both Arencibia and D'Arnaud could be all-star catchers at the major league level in the not-too-distant future and that both maintain maximum value in that role. He indicated that one would need to be traded.

If they're looking to trade one to try to capitalize on value and be a seller, it'll likely be Arencibia moved out of town. If they're trying to acquire a high value star player as a buyer, they may be forced into including D'Arnaud as the centerpiece of a deal. Neither scenario would bother me too much, to be honest.

KingCanada
05-22-2012, 10:50 PM
I would keep both for now. Which one has the most value in a trade right now?

koreancabbage
05-23-2012, 12:20 AM
What is it with ppl in Toronto - they see they have great players so their first (and sometimes only) thought is to trade the guys. Imagine for a second that you kept them both and when they are both there you were able to find them both at bats...By all accounts you would have two guys (by the way you all talk) that could be all stars on the Jays...but then all I read is trade them! I mean I don't get it, I really don't. My thought is keep 'em both. I wonder if the Washington threads ever had trade harper and strasberg posts...geez :p

LOL how are we supposed to keep two major league ready starting catchers as assets when we have other needs? 1B and SP/RP are something we need to address right now. I would love to keep both of them - right off the bat. n o doubt about it. but if the right deal came along and Arencibia had the higher trade value- you do it if addresses your need.

Actually, people in Toronto don't trade away players- they wait too long to deal with them. Adam Lind- should've traded him last year, Wells- we got lucky to get rid of him but should've been traded long time ago or not offered that crippling contract, Rios- should've traded him but gave him a monstrous contract as well.

Raptors -should've traded Carter when he had value, Bosh- when he had value, McGrady- should've traded him.

hindsight is 20/20. When we have an equivalent talent in the backend waiting to blossom- you trade for needs. Arencibia has probably the trade value now

I don't know if these were good examples, but we RARELY deal away our players that was good and we regretted recently. Only player we dealt away was Halladay- which is who we should've kept cuz we're missing one more legit #1-#2 starting pitcher from being a true contender (probably one of the best/better staffs in all of baseball).

albertajaysfan
05-23-2012, 01:12 AM
I still think we should keep both.

I like the idea of them sharing C/DH.


Future lineup using only players currently in the Jays system:
1B Encarnacion (that is a weird thing to be advocating)
2B Johnson
SS Escobar or Hechavarria (depends if he can figure out how to use a stick)
3B Lawrie
C/DH JPA/D'Arnaud
RF Bautista
CF Gose
LF whoever can claim the spot out of Thames/Snider/Rasmus/Marisnick

Bench:
Gomes
Davis
middle infielder
solid pinch hitter or fifth outfielder or super utility player

I really like the idea of keeping two solid hitting catchers. Plus having them play only about half their games behind the plate will keep them healthier. Perhaps they could each have pitchers they catch exclusively so that there is a solid pitcher/catcher relationship.

mtf
05-23-2012, 01:39 AM
I still think we should keep both.

I like the idea of them sharing C/DH.

It's still just a waste of value to have 2 potential All-Star catchers on your starting roster, and DH'ing one. Anthopoulos knows and has stated this. What they're currently doing with DH'ing Arencibia when he needs a day off, and starting Mathis is the right way of utilizing assets.

The_Jet11
05-23-2012, 01:49 AM
EE and KJ are both free agents at seasons end. But I too see some value in keeping JP and D'Arnaud.

Even if EE and KJ walk, and we make no additional upgrades, you could run with this lineup:


2B Escobar
RF Rasmus (if he gets things figured out and can get on base...)
1B Bautista
DH/C Arencibia
3B Lawrie
LF Snider
C/DH D'Arnaud
CF Gose (bats eighth to allow him to get on, swipe second, and have hech bunt to third if he cant swipe that too, to get some him in scoring position for the top)
SS Hechevarria

Bench
C/1B/3B Gomes
OF Davis
LF/DH Thames
2B/SS Goins

Tem would be super young.. But not the worst lineup in the league, thats for sure..

I dont expect this to be remotely close to the opening day 2013 roster, but it could certainly be worse. We could have Lind batting cleanup hah.

Sanyo
05-23-2012, 06:10 AM
Knowing AA we will see one of them being traded, though not until D'Arnaud gets up here and gets playing time. I think sometime in the middle of next year or off-season 2014 is when we'll really be having this talk...

HT9Canada
05-23-2012, 08:29 AM
I voted keep both. Reasoning is because I think both JP and D'arnaud will continue to improve and do a great job and if Gomes continues as well we can keep all 3. Use D'arnaud as our main catcher and then give JP some time at catcher, DH and 1B. If that happens he will need to get a better OBP and Gomes can always be on standby at catcher as well. So beneficial to have 3 guys who can play catcher and also hit.

All this can only happen if all 3 improve offensively and defensively and is definately a dream scenario.

2009mvp
05-24-2012, 03:09 PM
Of note, TDA's up to #4 on Keith Law's top prospect list.

wamco
05-24-2012, 04:07 PM
should be number 1. Damn Law always "hating on" the jays

Krylian
05-24-2012, 04:14 PM
I like d'Arnaud...but 4 seems awfully high to me. Not complaining...just saying Law must REALLY love TDA's game.

2009mvp
05-24-2012, 04:21 PM
He's explained it before. Plus defense, plus power, combine that with the incredibly low replacement level for catchers and you're talking about an elite prospect. Also helps that Trout, Harper, and Moore graduated off the list.

alistar
05-24-2012, 05:50 PM
should be number 1. Damn Law always "hating on" the jays

Agreed. Always hating. Still can't believe he never annointed Kevin Ahrens as the next Cal Ripken Jr.

wagnall
05-24-2012, 06:14 PM
d'Arnauds bat is heating up. Showing some nice power. Started slow but has really picked it up. But, this is going to be just another ? mark to figure out for 2013. Who's our catcher, who's in left, who's in centre, who's at 1st, do we need a proven starter, what does our back end of the BP look like again next year.

Man so many questions! :sigh:

albertajaysfan
05-24-2012, 11:24 PM
d'Arnauds bat is heating up. Showing some nice power. Started slow but has really picked it up. But, this is going to be just another ? mark to figure out for 2013. Who's our catcher, who's in left, who's in centre, who's at 1st, do we need a proven starter, what does our back end of the BP look like again next year.

Man so many questions! :sigh:

I agree on the six main questions but I don't think they will exist in the same way this off season.

1. The back end of our bullpen will be Santos and Janssen for sure. Oliver perhaps if he wants to come back for another year. Plus we have Luis Perez and that would actually be a solid core to work from in the off season.

2. The catcher one might be a question mark. But I think C/DH the two for one season is the best idea. And even if that is not the decision it means one of them was used to mark an upgrade in another area. Both good scenarios. If it is Arencibia going I bet it happens in the off season unless D'Arnaud is hitting .400 or something ridiculous.

3. & 4. I think it is safe to hope one of Thames/Rasmus proves useful by the end of the year. With the prospect of Gose competing for a spot as well.

5. The pitching part is what I am hoping is addressed during this season. Either by not giving up much in the way of positional players for a good veteran arm. Or giving up one strong arm and one strong positional player plus two add ons for a solid young pitcher. I would even deal in division with the Rays. Their rotation is so deep they have one in the bullpen. I am excited to have that problem. Plus we have a better idea on what we have with whichever youngsters continue to progress either at the Major League level or in the Minors. Trade Acquisition, Morrow, Romero, Alvarez, blank is fine by me. Even if Morrow and the new pitcher are flipped good place to start.

6. I would love to see a blockbuster for a 1B but I don't see any coming available any time soon but man the more I look the more I like Billy Butler. So my guess is no real clarity here. Unless Gomes surpasses everyones reasonable expectations and achieves all our dreams. Or AA can convince KC they really want one of our pitching prospects (probably more plausible just depends which one they want). And don't forget Hosmer starts to hit.

And to add another I foresee

7. I think the middle infield will also be a question mark unless both Escobar and KJ really turn it on for the rest of the season. If KJ turns it on then the situation becomes complicated because Escobar likely winds up on the block.

Overall though I like the scope of the questions much better then this past off season.

MrForever
05-25-2012, 02:55 PM
Why on earth would you trade either? Look at how often catchers get injured. Take a look at Joe Mauer in Minnesota, Buster Posey in San Fran. You need to platoon two good catchers in order to be a successful team. What awful asset management it would be to just toss one of them away, especially if you can train one of them to play 1B, or just have them DH.

2009mvp
05-25-2012, 03:31 PM
^^Well duh you don't just 'toss one away,' but not dealing one to shore up a position of need (and there are a lot of em) is the very definition of awful asset management. You can certainly train either of them to play first, but neither will hit enough to justify it.

mtf
05-25-2012, 04:19 PM
Why on earth would you trade either? Look at how often catchers get injured. Take a look at Joe Mauer in Minnesota, Buster Posey in San Fran. You need to platoon two good catchers in order to be a successful team. What awful asset management it would be to just toss one of them away, especially if you can train one of them to play 1B, or just have them DH.

Proper asset management would be getting value for one of the two potential all-star catchers by moving them (note: not "just toss one of them away") and acquiring another asset at a position of greater need. Instead of, for example, having 2 all-star catchers and no first-baseman, you trade one for a first-baseman.

Having someone competent like Yan Gomes around as a utility/back-up position player is much better asset management than benching a potential all-star and letting his value sink just because you're always planning for an injury.

Many star position players will play 145-162 games a season, so if you're having a potential all-star sitting for that much of a season, you really aren't managing assets as well as you think. Likewise, simply throwing them in left field or first base until they're needed behind the plate is also not maximizing value. Catchers maintain high value while catching.

wamco
05-25-2012, 04:56 PM
JPA doesn't hit well enough for a 1bman/dh. How many times does this need to be said?

Krylian
05-26-2012, 12:24 AM
JPA doesn't hit well enough for a 1bman/dh. How many times does this need to be said?

Apparently many.

statquo
05-26-2012, 02:59 AM
Apparently many.

and by apparently many, you mean, a million... maybe more.

2009mvp
05-26-2012, 11:23 AM
Montero's a far better defender and the better hitter by a fair amount, but 5/60 kinda tells you how valuable good big league catchers are right now. Unless Beeston is the new Godfrey worrying about how the move would play in the media, JP should be dealt by opening day 2013.

bartron_44
05-28-2012, 02:43 PM
JPA doesn't hit well enough for a 1bman/dh. How many times does this need to be said?

Its hard to believe this argument when he is having the best month of his young career. He is walking even less then in 2011,yet somehow has an OPS of .932 in May after his 2 HR's last night in Texas...That kind of production plays at any position.

This may be the best time for AA to sell high on JPA though. Would you start looking to move him now to maximize the return if you think D'Arnaud is the guy long term you want to go with? They could simply use Gomes and Mathis this year if they want to be patient with Travis, but he already knows Hutch,Drabek and Alvarez, so he is already familiar with most of our starting pitchers.

If we actually had a AAA league for our prospects to play in that wasn't a step down from the Eastern League they have already conquered, I would say be patient. But our AAA league is such a joke that I am not sure it does our prospects any good other then to beef up their confidence...

Converged
05-28-2012, 02:53 PM
It's going to be funny when JPA gets traded...he hasn't even had 2 full years on the Jays roster, but it's pretty clear he is a fan favourite. Your casual fan, who doesn't know who TdA is or about his potential, is going to lose their **** when JP is dealt. I remember casual fans freaking out over trading Wells' albatross contract haha

wagnall
05-28-2012, 03:24 PM
I find it hard to trade JPA, when his so called hier apparant has never played in the bigs. I really would like to see d'Arnaud play some games before we ship JPA out. But how do you do that now, we can't carry 3 catchers. You move JPA, it seems like a big leap of faith that d'Arnaud is the guy.

Twitchy
05-28-2012, 03:34 PM
Posted in the wrong thread before, haha.

Arencibia has 4 walks in 150 at bats. That is crazy.

Eagles4Lyfe
05-28-2012, 04:14 PM
GTHO does he really?? Thats abysmal

Toxeryll
05-28-2012, 04:26 PM
Posted in the wrong thread before, haha.

Arencibia has 4 walks in 150 at bats. That is crazy.

wow, wtf?? thats insane. seriously, id rather have d'arnaud. the only thing im concerned with d'arnaud is the injuries he has had.

wagnall
05-28-2012, 04:33 PM
Posted in the wrong thread before, haha.

Arencibia has 4 walks in 150 at bats. That is crazy.


We are not a team that takes alot of walks. Even Lawrie has 8 walks in 172 ABs. Even Bautista is down as it seems teams are not trying to pitch around him as much. Bautista always seems to either be behind 0 and 2 or 1 and 2. :confused:

Toxeryll
05-28-2012, 04:58 PM
We are not a team that takes alot of walks. Even Lawrie has 8 walks in 172 ABs. Even Bautista is down as it seems teams are not trying to pitch around him as much. Bautista always seems to either be behind 0 and 2 or 1 and 2. :confused:

#firemurphy

bartron_44
05-29-2012, 08:05 AM
wow, wtf?? thats insane. seriously, id rather have d'arnaud. the only thing im concerned with d'arnaud is the injuries he has had.

Despite his lack of walks so far, JPA has an OPS over .930 in May, making him the #1 hitting catcher in the AL over the past month. If he keeps hitting, he could be an all-star in his second season.

Ragin' Cajun
05-29-2012, 08:51 AM
I don't understand how people can side with a player who has never played an MLB game.. Arencibia might not walk a lot but he's a good catcher who hits for power.. I'm pretty sure thats the norm for a catcher anything else is a bonus. IF D'Arnaud turns out to be as good as he's projected to be then you worry about making trade. Until then JP and Mathis are our catchers. Even Gomes can catch so we are in a good situation.

AA09-?
05-29-2012, 09:44 AM
Posted in the wrong thread before, haha.

Arencibia has 4 walks in 150 at bats. That is crazy.

crazy bad!:D

AA09-?
05-29-2012, 09:45 AM
#firemurphy

:clap:

AA09-?
05-29-2012, 09:46 AM
I don't understand how people can side with a player who has never played an MLB game.. Arencibia might not walk a lot but he's a good catcher who hits for power.. I'm pretty sure thats the norm for a catcher anything else is a bonus. IF D'Arnaud turns out to be as good as he's projected to be then you worry about making trade. Until then JP and Mathis are our catchers. Even Gomes can catch so we are in a good situation.

I think you meant to say, "almost never walks.":D

bartron_44
05-29-2012, 09:59 AM
I don't understand how people can side with a player who has never played an MLB game.. Arencibia might not walk a lot but he's a good catcher who hits for power.. I'm pretty sure thats the norm for a catcher anything else is a bonus. IF D'Arnaud turns out to be as good as he's projected to be then you worry about making trade. Until then JP and Mathis are our catchers. Even Gomes can catch so we are in a good situation.

Its a tough decision because as good as JPA is, D'Arnaud "could" be even better. JPA has an OPS of .932 this month, but D'Arnuad has a major league equivalent OPS of .860 this month, and has been on a ridiculous tear over the past 2 weeks with a major league equivalent OPS of 1.150 (1.502 in Vegas) during his last 10 games.

The question is, if we are close to a playoff spot, can we afford to sit through the growing pains of another rookie catcher, or do we go with the guy entering his prime...

I think the real future of this team is in a few more years when AA's draft picks combine with his trade acquisitions. There is so much high ceiling talent coming in waves the next 3 years, that I really don't know what we are going to have to buy via FA...and its going to be tough to find an available upgrade to anyone we already have...

wamco
05-29-2012, 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by wamco
JPA doesn't hit well enough for a 1bman/dh. How many times does this need to be said?

sanyo; Its hard to believe this argument


-shocking

North Yorker
05-29-2012, 04:55 PM
Posted in the wrong thread before, haha.

Arencibia has 4 walks in 150 at bats. That is crazy.

2.5bb% and 26.5k% :clap:

MrForever
05-29-2012, 06:42 PM
Nobody on this team walks, they're all free swingers.

2009mvp
05-29-2012, 06:53 PM
Bautista, KJ, Rasmus, and Escobar all take a lot of walks. EE is league average-ish BB% wise. Wouldn't say they're all free swingers by any means.

nithanyo
05-29-2012, 09:39 PM
Personally I like the aggressive approach. A laid back take pitches approach won't work for the jays.

The reason the yanks and red sox take pitches is cus there lineup is filled with feared batters. We only got 1 feared batter in Bautista. Therefore he takes a lot of walks. When u have guys like Rasmus, JPA etc. pitchers will throw a lot more strikes

mtf
05-29-2012, 10:02 PM
I don't understand how people can side with a player who has never played an MLB game..

It's quite simple actually. Travis D'Arnaud is one of the top prospects in baseball. Of course there's always a risk with any prospect that they'll be a bust, but the potential gain far outweighs the risk. Arencibia is good, but greatness doesn't appear to be in his future. With D'Arnaud, the ceiling is much higher.

JaysFan87
05-30-2012, 12:38 AM
for what its worth the the jays rank 18th in the league in K% and 17% in BB%.

AA09-?
05-30-2012, 10:41 AM
JPA now has 5 walks...LOL

Kenny Powders
05-30-2012, 06:11 PM
Keep D'Arnaud and trade JPA when it comes time, which could be very soon. You don't trade a commodity like D'Arnaud over a sub par defensive catcher with some pop who couldn't take a walk if his life depended on it.

wamco
05-31-2012, 06:54 AM
ultimate drinking game. You gotta chug liquor for the time it takes JPA to get to 1b if/when he takes a walk.

AA09-?
05-31-2012, 09:34 AM
ultimate drinking game. You gotta chug liquor for the time it takes JPA to get to 1b if/when he takes a walk.

This would lead to millions of people getting their stomachs pumped.

Bob_at_york
05-31-2012, 09:44 AM
This would lead to millions of people getting their stomachs pumped.

But he NEVER walks. You could end up not drinking for the rest of the season.

AA09-?
05-31-2012, 09:54 AM
But he NEVER walks. You could end up not drinking for the rest of the season.

Wamco said:

You gotta chug liquor for the time it takes JPA to get to 1b if/when he takes a walk.