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View Full Version : Time to trade for a SP... And maybe a bat?



The_Jet11
05-22-2012, 02:46 AM
With June fast approaching, and the sleeping giants of the AL East still residing behind us in the standings, i think it's better to jump the gun and try to pull ahead early, than wait until the trade deadline to address needs.

We clearly have the pieces to get a deal done, for almost any player available for prospects.

King Felix
Garza
Hamels
Peavy
Grienke
Marcum
Wandy Rodriguez
.. Even Johan Santana

Or sign Oswalt. Its worth the gamble.

Any time you gan get a top of the rotation calibre arm, ia year that you're hoping to compete, you have to go for it. Someone else surely will.

Peavy and Konerko from CWS or Felix, something that will make us stronger for this year and next.

Its obvious that the price will be high, and us prospect junkies will be remiss to watch some of the future assets eventually help another organization.. But we didn't sign Prince, we didn't sign Darvish... And AA's preference is to make trades for impact players during the season, once they have had time to assess the landsape.

It may just be me hoping for a big splash, but I have a feeling that Anthopoulos will make a deal within the next two weeks, that will suggest once and for all, that we are going for it this year. In a one game wild card matchup, anything can happen. Or a division series. The top of your rotation is critical, and I'd love to see a top three that included one of the names above, and ricky and morrow.
The yankees, red sox, and rays are playoff tested in the recent past.

The time is getting close, to piss or get off the pot. I was prepared to wait one more year developmental year, but it appears that the landscape is more in our favour today, than in the last decade. Go for it!

Who do you think AA is secretly trying to pry away at this very moment?

mtf
05-22-2012, 02:53 AM
I'd rather they not trade for a type-a free agent and give up the farm system for a rental which gives no compensation when they walk at the end of the season.

The only players I'd like to see the Jays pursue is Felix Hernandez and/or Tim Lincecum, and I doubt either of those will be made available by their respective teams.

The_Jet11
05-22-2012, 03:13 AM
I see where you are coming from mtf. With that said, potential free agents are going to cost a lot less than Felix or Lincecum, so selling the farm isn't entirely necessary. Additionally, i think that there is a chance that most players would consider re-signing with the club, if they were given the shot at pitching in the post-season. Going forward, the Jays ate as likely as anybody to be considered playoff calibre teams, in part because of the strength and depth of the farm system.

Hamels for Drabek, Snider, and Syndergaard would't be the end of the world for me. It would probably cost a little more, but i think it is fair a starting point.

rapsjaysfan88
05-22-2012, 03:36 AM
I see where you are coming from mtf. With that said, potential free agents are going to cost a lot less than Felix or Lincecum, so selling the farm isn't entirely necessary. Additionally, i think that there is a chance that most players would consider re-signing with the club, if they were given the shot at pitching in the post-season. Going forward, the Jays ate as likely as anybody to be considered playoff calibre teams, in part because of the strength and depth of the farm system.

Hamels for Drabek, Snider, and Syndergaard would't be the end of the world for me. It would probably cost a little more, but i think it is fair a starting point.

That's a horrible trade, two guys who could be top of your rotation for years for a rental

1hardcore
05-22-2012, 06:15 AM
We've been talking about this in other threads.

wamco
05-22-2012, 08:08 AM
With June fast approaching, and the sleeping giants of the AL East still residing behind us in the standings, i think it's better to jump the gun and try to pull ahead early, than wait until the trade deadline to address needs.

We clearly have the pieces to get a deal done, for almost any player available for prospects.

King Felix
Garza
Hamels
Peavy
Grienke
Marcum
Wandy Rodriguez
.. Even Johan Santana

Or sign Oswalt. Its worth the gamble.

Any time you gan get a top of the rotation calibre arm, ia year that you're hoping to compete, you have to go for it. Someone else surely will.

Peavy and Konerko from CWS or Felix, something that will make us stronger for this year and next.

Its obvious that the price will be high, and us prospect junkies will be remiss to watch some of the future assets eventually help another organization.. But we didn't sign Prince, we didn't sign Darvish... And AA's preference is to make trades for impact players during the season, once they have had time to assess the landsape.

It may just be me hoping for a big splash, but I have a feeling that Anthopoulos will make a deal within the next two weeks, that will suggest once and for all, that we are going for it this year. In a one game wild card matchup, anything can happen. Or a division series. The top of your rotation is critical, and I'd love to see a top three that included one of the names above, and ricky and morrow.
The yankees, red sox, and rays are playoff tested in the recent past.

The time is getting close, to piss or get off the pot. I was prepared to wait one more year developmental year, but it appears that the landscape is more in our favour today, than in the last decade. Go for it!

Who do you think AA is secretly trying to pry away at this very moment?

Oswalt said he wasn't interested in playing here. Might sign with Tex this week. Cubs say they are looking to extend Garza, not trade him

alistar
05-22-2012, 08:37 AM
i doubt hernandez is available or the brewers pitchers

alistar
05-22-2012, 08:45 AM
With June fast approaching, and the sleeping giants of the AL East still residing behind us in the standings, i think it's better to jump the gun and try to pull ahead early, than wait until the trade deadline to address needs.

We clearly have the pieces to get a deal done, for almost any player available for prospects.

King Felix
Garza
Hamels
Peavy
Grienke
Marcum
Wandy Rodriguez
.. Even Johan Santana

Or sign Oswalt. Its worth the gamble.

Any time you gan get a top of the rotation calibre arm, ia year that you're hoping to compete, you have to go for it. Someone else surely will.

Peavy and Konerko from CWS or Felix, something that will make us stronger for this year and next.

Its obvious that the price will be high, and us prospect junkies will be remiss to watch some of the future assets eventually help another organization.. But we didn't sign Prince, we didn't sign Darvish... And AA's preference is to make trades for impact players during the season, once they have had time to assess the landsape.

It may just be me hoping for a big splash, but I have a feeling that Anthopoulos will make a deal within the next two weeks, that will suggest once and for all, that we are going for it this year. In a one game wild card matchup, anything can happen. Or a division series. The top of your rotation is critical, and I'd love to see a top three that included one of the names above, and ricky and morrow.
The yankees, red sox, and rays are playoff tested in the recent past.

The time is getting close, to piss or get off the pot. I was prepared to wait one more year developmental year, but it appears that the landscape is more in our favour today, than in the last decade. Go for it!

Who do you think AA is secretly trying to pry away at this very moment?

Yeah, I think that's just you. I doubt any team other than the Twins is even thinking about dumping players this early in the season. There's still 3/4 of a season to be played, teams don't become sellers this early

North Yorker
05-22-2012, 09:34 AM
Gavin. Floyd.

JMac4PM
05-22-2012, 09:47 AM
if we can get a player for cheap... then ya I got no problem... but I dont want AA trading anymore big time prospects. I kinda wanna see this top prospect pool grow up together and see what they can do.

North Yorker
05-22-2012, 09:52 AM
Oh and Ryan Dempster.

LuckyLuke2
05-22-2012, 09:54 AM
Oswalt is a no go. He's going to sign elsewhere and in the off-season said he didn't want to play in Toronto.

As for the others you mentioned, I don't think any big names like Felix or even Garza will be coming to Toronto. Look at the teams who are struggling, like Minny or another and I am sure AA looks at a starter.

I wouldn't bet on them getting a top of the line starter, yet, especially in trade.

LuckyLuke2
05-22-2012, 09:56 AM
Oh and Ryan Dempster.

That's very possible. He's got off to a good start, and I also think Gavin Floyd is possible. Look for a name like that, not a big time starter.

Converged
05-22-2012, 10:40 AM
No way you trade high potential prospects for a rental. I would rather trade a handful of our top prospects for an elite player who is young, controllable and/or has a team friendly contract than trade one or two prospects for a rental.

Kelly Gruber
05-22-2012, 10:53 AM
We have the youngest rotation in baseball and is performing pretty well. Let's see what they can do. I don't think it's time to decimate the prospects we've built up just yet. Until the right guy and the right fit come along, the Jays should stick with the plan. It's May afterall.

KaiserSose
05-22-2012, 11:27 AM
Should of signed Edwin Jackson in the off-season. Would of cost us zero prospects!

damadmonk
05-22-2012, 11:43 AM
Hitter if Vlad isn't capable, but not a pitcher.

We have a ton of prospects, but nobody is being held up in the minors. They are being developed there. Vlad will be ready in 2 weeks or so (especially with Lind off the 40 man).

We have 5 pretty solid starters at this point with McG on the DL. It's been said that he will be a starter as long as he's healthy.

Santos is coming off the DL in a few weeks and thus we don't need an upgrade in our pen.

LuckyLuke2
05-22-2012, 12:04 PM
We have the youngest rotation in baseball and is performing pretty well. Let's see what they can do. I don't think it's time to decimate the prospects we've built up just yet. Until the right guy and the right fit come along, the Jays should stick with the plan. It's May afterall.

Once again I agree. Nothing major should be done now maybe later on if injuries happen.

ah nuts
05-22-2012, 12:21 PM
Should of signed Edwin Jackson in the off-season. Would of cost us zero prospects!

why?

he never proved to be anything great through a full season. And right now, Drabeck and HA has a better ERA than romero's 3.64. And Hutch is coming along nicely, not bad for your 5th.

But most important, Drabeck, HA, and Hutch could very well be key players for the future - they need MLB experience sooner or later.

LuckyLuke2
05-22-2012, 12:32 PM
why?

he never proved to be anything great through a full season. And right now, Drabeck and HA has a better ERA than romero's 3.64. And Hutch is coming along nicely, not bad for your 5th.

But most important, Drabeck, HA, and Hutch could very well be key players for the future - they need MLB experience sooner or later.

Agreed with everything.

Hutch and Drabek, so far, have been fine. I never liked Jackson and just because he's pitching decent with WAS doesn't really mean anything. It's easy to say hey we should have signed him when he has decent numbers.

I am fine with Hutchinson and Drabek. Don't forget both are still extremely young and will only get better... at least we hope.

Alvarez, Hutch and Drabek have all performed well enough to stay.

Krylian
05-22-2012, 12:58 PM
The starting pitching is what has kept the Jays competitive this year. It doesn't need tinkering.

More offense would be nice.

2009mvp
05-22-2012, 01:01 PM
Drabek's walking two guys every three innings, I wouldn't call that fine. He really hasn't improved much on the problems that plagued him last year.

craigerlee
05-22-2012, 01:04 PM
Drabek's walking two guys every three innings, I wouldn't call that fine. He really hasn't improved much on the problems that plagued him last year.

2 seamer has upped his GB% to almost 60% so that's definitely an improvement. If he figures out the control to the point where he's walking maybe 4 a game he should be alright.

2009mvp
05-22-2012, 01:12 PM
Sure, he's also increased the K's. Neither mean that much when he's still throwing more balls than strikes though.

North Yorker
05-22-2012, 01:16 PM
A blurb from ESPN


While it appears the club may wish to move veteran Adam Lind and former first-round pick Travis Snider, the Toronto Blue Jays are in contention at 24-19 and four games back in the American League East entering play Monday. If the Jays get through June is good shape, pieces could be added to make a run and GM Alex Anthopoulos has the necessary trade bait.

Ken Rosenthal of FOXSports.com reports that right-handers Zack Greinke and Matt Garza could be in play for Toronto, and right-hander Gavin Floyd and southpaw Wandy Rodriguez could also be options.

The Jays have a strong farm system -- five players on Keith Law's Top 100 Prospects list to start the season and several others on the brink -- and could easily put together a lucrative package for any player made available this summer.

Catcher Travis d'Arnaud may be off limits, especially for a rental -- Greinke is a free agent at season's end -- but the likes of outfielders Jake Marisnick and Anthony Gose as well as a young arm or two, such as Aaron Sanchez, Justin Nicolino and Noah Syndergaard, could get the job done.

If the Jays don't make a move this summer it won't be for lack of ammo. Of course, the Brewers would like to retain Greinke beyond 2012, so it's far from a sure thing he's placed on the block.

Converged
05-22-2012, 01:25 PM
The starting pitching is what has kept the Jays competitive this year. It doesn't need tinkering.

More offense would be nice.

I would argue that you could always use a front of the rotation arm. I agree the pitching staff has been doing well and I wouldn't sell the farm for a mid-rotation guy like Edwin Jackson, but would love to see the Jays land an ace who is locked under contract..however, that would be VERY difficult to do and don't see it happening.

Dol-Fan
05-22-2012, 01:36 PM
Sure, he's also increased the K's. Neither mean that much when he's still throwing more balls than strikes though.

Yeah, it means that he's improved. I'm not sure how improving two big problems while still having difficulty with control means that he hasn't improved on the problems that plagued him last year. Has he improved on all of the problems that plagued him? Definitely not but the improvements in GB% and K% have resulted in an ability to get out of the jams that he wouldn't have last year. By no means should he be satisfied, but improvement is improvement. Gotta call a spade a spade.

I mean, his GB% is up almost 15%. That's a massive improvement. Not only that, but most of that 15% has come from a reduction in LD% and less from a reduction in FB%. That means that he's inducing a lot of weak contact. Swinging strike % is also up a little bit. He's never going to have pinpoint control but if he can get it down a bit more, he'd remind me of Carlos Zambrano in his prime.

Dol-Fan
05-22-2012, 01:36 PM
A blurb from ESPN

Just hold on to Sanchez.

craigerlee
05-22-2012, 01:42 PM
Sure, he's also increased the K's. Neither mean that much when he's still throwing more balls than strikes though.

As Dol-Fan mentioned the GB% and increase in K% gives him more ability to strand runners which he couldn't do last year. Also I really think that its no coincidence that all our pitchers are outperforming their FIP/xFIP, the infield D and defensive shifts have been superb, so I don't think we should expect as much regression as the peripheral stats would indicate.

nithanyo
05-22-2012, 02:16 PM
If felix hernandez is available we sell the farm. Especially if he will resign.

2009mvp
05-22-2012, 02:20 PM
Yeah, it means that he's improved. I'm not sure how improving two big problems while still having difficulty with control means that he hasn't improved on the problems that plagued him last year. Has he improved on all of the problems that plagued him? Definitely not but the improvements in GB% and K% have resulted in an ability to get out of the jams that he wouldn't have last year. By no means should he be satisfied, but improvement is improvement. Gotta call a spade a spade.

I mean, his GB% is up almost 15%. That's a massive improvement. Not only that, but most of that 15% has come from a reduction in LD% and less from a reduction in FB%. That means that he's inducing a lot of weak contact. Swinging strike % is also up a little bit. He's never going to have pinpoint control but if he can get it down a bit more, he'd remind me of Carlos Zambrano in his prime.

I meant in the grand scheme of things you're just not gonna succeed throwing as many balls as he has. Strikeouts are nice (though I think he's still below league average there), groundballs are great, but right now I see 4.00-4.50 ERA upside and a guy you'd be thrilled to get 6 innings out of every start. Hope I'm wrong, but yeah.

nithanyo
05-22-2012, 02:43 PM
The starting pitching is what has kept the Jays competitive this year. It doesn't need tinkering.

More offense would be nice.

Lets be honest.

Morrow is 5 good starts into the season. Not ready to announce him the ace yet.

People were expecting Romero to slip up and he is definetly not pitching like a staff ace.

Alvarez is good but he is 22 and will have bumps along the road. Im not concerned but his strikeout rate concerns some people on this forum.

Drabeks ERA could easily be 5+. He seems to be walking a ton of people a game.

The yanks and red sox are faltering, the rays are injured, the orioles are leading the divison and there is 2 wild card spots. As much as I would like to keep hutch in the majors we have to capitalize on these oppertunites

Dol-Fan
05-22-2012, 03:09 PM
I meant in the grand scheme of things you're just not gonna succeed throwing as many balls as he has. Strikeouts are nice (though I think he's still below league average there), groundballs are great, but right now I see 4.00-4.50 ERA upside and a guy you'd be thrilled to get 6 innings out of every start. Hope I'm wrong, but yeah.

Fair enough. I was primarily responding to your assertion that he hasn't improved on problems from last year by stating that he's improved in a few important areas. His BB rate is still nowhere near what you'd like, and he likely won't be the top end starter some of us hoped for at the time of the trade, but even if he can bring the BB rate down to 4 per 9, he could be a Carlos Zambrano type of fringy 2 but more like a 3 starter. Same type of pitcher. Good stuff, iffy control, induces weak contact leading to a low BABIP and consistently outperforms his FIP/xFIP.

I like to see players make improvements. If there is stagnation, I get worried, but players can only work on so many problems during one offseason, or during the season for that matter. The drastic improvement in GB rate suggests to me that there is still room for improvement. I have hopes for a 3-3.50 ish ERA pitcher (with FIP/xFIP somewhere between 3.75-4.75), 8 K/9, 4 BB/9, with a 50-55% GB rate and low LD rate.

GNick
05-22-2012, 03:23 PM
With June fast approaching, and the sleeping giants of the AL East still residing behind us in the standings, i think it's better to jump the gun and try to pull ahead early, than wait until the trade deadline to address needs.

We clearly have the pieces to get a deal done, for almost any player available for prospects.

King Felix
Garza
Hamels
Peavy
Grienke
Marcum
Wandy Rodriguez
.. Even Johan Santana

Or sign Oswalt. Its worth the gamble.

Any time you gan get a top of the rotation calibre arm, ia year that you're hoping to compete, you have to go for it. Someone else surely will.

Peavy and Konerko from CWS or Felix, something that will make us stronger for this year and next.

Its obvious that the price will be high, and us prospect junkies will be remiss to watch some of the future assets eventually help another organization.. But we didn't sign Prince, we didn't sign Darvish... And AA's preference is to make trades for impact players during the season, once they have had time to assess the landsape.

It may just be me hoping for a big splash, but I have a feeling that Anthopoulos will make a deal within the next two weeks, that will suggest once and for all, that we are going for it this year. In a one game wild card matchup, anything can happen. Or a division series. The top of your rotation is critical, and I'd love to see a top three that included one of the names above, and ricky and morrow.
The yankees, red sox, and rays are playoff tested in the recent past.

The time is getting close, to piss or get off the pot. I was prepared to wait one more year developmental year, but it appears that the landscape is more in our favour today, than in the last decade. Go for it!

Who do you think AA is secretly trying to pry away at this very moment?

Too early yet...too many teams still in it. Teams aren't in trade mode until a couple weeks past the draft up until the July 31st trade deadline

StayOnBoard
05-22-2012, 06:47 PM
Too early yet...too many teams still in it. Teams aren't in trade mode until a couple weeks past the draft up until the July 31st trade deadline

Agreed - I wouldn't expect anything until late June/early July at the earliest.

mtf
05-22-2012, 09:11 PM
I see where you are coming from mtf. With that said, potential free agents are going to cost a lot less than Felix or Lincecum, so selling the farm isn't entirely necessary. Additionally, i think that there is a chance that most players would consider re-signing with the club, if they were given the shot at pitching in the post-season. Going forward, the Jays ate as likely as anybody to be considered playoff calibre teams, in part because of the strength and depth of the farm system.

Hamels for Drabek, Snider, and Syndergaard would't be the end of the world for me. It would probably cost a little more, but i think it is fair a starting point.

You may not think much of Drabek or Syndergaard, but there is way too much potential to give away for a rental. Drabek, Snider and Syndergaard would be a solid package (with potentially someone like Deck McGuire added) for a young pitcher under team control like King Felix, not for a rental like Cole Hamels.

The_Jet11
05-22-2012, 09:18 PM
It will certainly cost more to acquire a player now, than at the dedline. But, that does mean that they have a greater chance to influence your teams hanecs at the playoffs. It could mean an extra 10 starts from an ace calibre pitcher between now and the deadline, and 23 starts for the rest of the season. As much as i'd like to see Hutch develop at the big league level, it wouldn't kill him to let him play the rest of the year out at AA. If The team went 4-6 in those ten starts in the MLB, and a guy like Grienke or Garza were able to help the team to a 7-3 it'd mean three more wins BEFORE the deadline alone, and as many as 8 wins difference by season's end.

mtf
05-22-2012, 09:49 PM
It will certainly cost more to acquire a player now, than at the dedline. But, that does mean that they have a greater chance to influence your teams hanecs at the playoffs. It could mean an extra 10 starts from an ace calibre pitcher between now and the deadline, and 23 starts for the rest of the season. As much as i'd like to see Hutch develop at the big league level, it wouldn't kill him to let him play the rest of the year out at AA. If The team went 4-6 in those ten starts in the MLB, and a guy like Grienke or Garza were able to help the team to a 7-3 it'd mean three more wins BEFORE the deadline alone, and as many as 8 wins difference by season's end.

A free agent at the end of the season is still classified as a rental now, not just at the deadline. The Blue jays will still receive no compensation if/when they walk at the end of the season.

I don't mind seeing the Blue Jays "sell the farm", but only for something that isn't merely a 1/2-3/4 season rental.

masTOR_shake1
05-22-2012, 10:38 PM
I see where you are coming from mtf. With that said, potential free agents are going to cost a lot less than Felix or Lincecum, so selling the farm isn't entirely necessary. Additionally, i think that there is a chance that most players would consider re-signing with the club, if they were given the shot at pitching in the post-season. Going forward, the Jays ate as likely as anybody to be considered playoff calibre teams, in part because of the strength and depth of the farm system.

Hamels for Drabek, Snider, and Syndergaard would't be the end of the world for me. It would probably cost a little more, but i think it is fair a starting point.

effffffff that. i'd go into hiding for the lenght of syngergaard and drebek's careers.

ah nuts
05-23-2012, 12:24 AM
I would argue that you could always use a front of the rotation arm. I agree the pitching staff has been doing well and I wouldn't sell the farm for a mid-rotation guy like Edwin Jackson, but would love to see the Jays land an ace who is locked under contract..however, that would be VERY difficult to do and don't see it happening.

that's says is there, all but impossible.

and I'm in no rush to see any of these 5 guys go. They all look like something special. Drabek looks to be fantastic in 2-3 years. awesome stuff.

we need a big bat, i can't wait for snider anymore

dballss
05-23-2012, 02:29 PM
if only we gotten Yu and Prince, we probably be top 3 team in baseball...missed opportunities

BlueJayFanDan
05-23-2012, 03:52 PM
if only we gotten Yu and Prince, we probably be top 3 team in baseball...missed opportunities

Our payroll would also be insane and holding us back from making other moves in the future since we don't like spending money.

ByShine
05-23-2012, 03:53 PM
get us edwin jackson from the nats

alistar
05-23-2012, 05:34 PM
Our payroll would also be insane and holding us back from making other moves in the future since we don't like spending money.

Agreed. Spending almost $5 million dollars on the Francisco Cordero's out there is something the Jays need to do more of.

koreancabbage
05-23-2012, 06:54 PM
Our payroll would also be insane and holding us back from making other moves in the future since we don't like spending money.

yea, but we would be really really good. Addressed our need at 1B (even though Fielder is an average 1B player), and would have strengthen our Starting rotation.

we'd be pretty nasty right about now and possibly have the best record in the Majors right about now. Fielder would have caused some more walks for Bautista. Yu would have pushed our starting depth to Darvish, Morrow, Romero, Alvarez, Drabek.

thats a sick starting 5

mtf
05-23-2012, 07:35 PM
Our payroll would also be insane and holding us back from making other moves in the future since we don't like spending money.

What further major moves would they need at that point?

wagnall
05-23-2012, 09:46 PM
^ those would have been the major moves!!! What else would we still want that would be major?

YUMYUM
05-23-2012, 10:15 PM
Trumbo and E Santana for JP, Hutch and mid prospect. Angels need a catcher, I like JP but he's too slump prone. Buy low on Santana, stuff is still there.

North Yorker
05-23-2012, 10:29 PM
Trumbo and E Santana for JP, Hutch and mid prospect. Angels need a catcher, I like JP but he's too slump prone. Buy low on Santana, stuff is still there.

^Mike Scioscia's head would explode if he had to stick JP behind the plate

ByShine
05-24-2012, 12:19 AM
romero is not an ace and we need an ace or one more float the boat pitcher
get edwin jackson

other top tier pitchers are too hard to get
look at easier ones like

dempster jackson volquez

mtf
05-24-2012, 01:45 AM
^ those would have been the major moves!!! What else would we still want that would be major?

That was kinda the implied point I was making. He said signing Prince Fielder and Yu Darvish would have left the Blue Jays unable to make further acquisitions, at which point I asked that semi-rhetorical question.

StayOnBoard
05-24-2012, 08:24 AM
What further major moves would they need at that point?

I'll play along...

Fielder tears his ACL and goes on the DL for a year. He comes back and is never the same player again. So, now your paying a guy 22+ mil a year to say... put up Vernon Wells type numbers (when he was with the Jays). We all know how much that worked out.

Hypothetical is hypothetical.... injuries happen, and I think that's the point the other poster is trying to make. These guys aren't invincible - and if you put 1/4 of your budget on one player and he gets hurt your basically screwed. Even a team like the Red Sox can't handle it when a high payroll player (or two) goes down for any extended period of time.

True, this can happen to any player, but if a guy is making 5 mil a goes down then it's not a big deal. That's why I hope the Jays NEVER EVER pay out 22-25 million for one player.... yes, Im probably in the minority but it's been proven time and time again money doesn't buy championships and crippling your future and putting all your eggs in one basket hoping a guy performs the way he should is a very dangerous game.

For reference
Prince Fielder
.285/.346/.461/.807

Albert Pujols
.213/.258/.331/.589

Doesn't sound like the Tigers or Angels are thrilled to be paying these guys 22-25 million each.... I assume both will rebound nicely, but likely not for the 9 years they're under contract.

YUMYUM
05-24-2012, 01:01 PM
"Mike Scioscia's head would explode if he had to stick JP behind the plate"

He can have Mathis back too :)

BlueJayFanDan
05-24-2012, 01:50 PM
What further major moves would they need at that point?

Who really knows what could happen. Santos hasn't played since like the second week of the season. Rasmus has struggled all year. Our bench players couldn't hit a ball off a tee. Bautista was off to a bad start. Thames has been meh. Johnson has slowed down since his good start. We have a lot of players who could be upgraded right now, even though the team is playing pretty well. More major moves could happen anywhere. They wont, but all it takes is an injury, or a player getting off to a horrid start.

Sanyo
05-24-2012, 02:20 PM
Every team has issues... DEAL WITH IT! You dont throw money at it to make the problem go away (like someone else mentioned look at the mess Pujols will put the Angels through, already said before the season starts they were going to regret that deal big time, though even I will admit I didnt think it would be this quick). Jays still have a loaded farm system and one of the best in the business -- some will make it, some wont. Some who might be near the top will fail and likewise there could be a player or two who didnt even break the top 25 Blue Jays prospect list this year who could be the next break through star -- hard to say.

Anyways, Jays are close. You can tell the improvement. Maybe as close as one or two players away -- but no team is going to make a major move just yet and I dont expect the Jays to trade someone like JP Arencibia since D'Arnaud wont be ready for full-time action until 2013. Let's see what happens, Jays have A LOT more flexibility then a team like -- hmm say the Angels or Sox who are so up the ***** with payroll, they are limited with what they can do -- the Jays can go out and sign big free agents or make the big trade -- right now the JAys are analyzing what they have with the youth and make adjustments -- and as you have seen in the past they arent afraid to dump/demote guys when they need too (Wells, Rios and now Lind) or trade them at the right time to get some assets back (Halladay). AA is a smart man -- no not every one of his deals will work out but even if he can get 70% right, as he has so far, he is far ahead than the majority of the GM's in the league -- just be patient and believe -- this is definitely a team that is looking up!

wagnall
05-24-2012, 03:26 PM
That was kinda the implied point I was making. He said signing Prince Fielder and Yu Darvish would have left the Blue Jays unable to make further acquisitions, at which point I asked that semi-rhetorical question.

I was agreeing with you. :)

wagnall
05-24-2012, 03:45 PM
I'll play along...

Fielder tears his ACL and goes on the DL for a year. He comes back and is never the same player again. So, now your paying a guy 22+ mil a year to say... put up Vernon Wells type numbers (when he was with the Jays). We all know how much that worked out.

Hypothetical is hypothetical.... injuries happen, and I think that's the point the other poster is trying to make. These guys aren't invincible - and if you put 1/4 of your budget on one player and he gets hurt your basically screwed. Even a team like the Red Sox can't handle it when a high payroll player (or two) goes down for any extended period of time.

True, this can happen to any player, but if a guy is making 5 mil a goes down then it's not a big deal. That's why I hope the Jays NEVER EVER pay out 22-25 million for one player.... yes, Im probably in the minority but it's been proven time and time again money doesn't buy championships and crippling your future and putting all your eggs in one basket hoping a guy performs the way he should is a very dangerous game.

For reference
Prince Fielder
.285/.346/.461/.807

Albert Pujols
.213/.258/.331/.589

Doesn't sound like the Tigers or Angels are thrilled to be paying these guys 22-25 million each.... I assume both will rebound nicely, but likely not for the 9 years they're under contract.


I agree. At the time would I have signed Fielder to a 5 year deal, yes, 9 no way. And at the time would I have laid out basically 19m a year for 6 years for a guy who never pitched in the majors, no. But I also don't want to see the 7 + year 200m + deals either. I don't mind the term limit being 5 years, however for the right guy at a reasonable price, if it takes stretching it to 6 years then thats fine by me. But I'm talking about athletic guys under 27 so that we get thier best years. :):)

2009mvp
05-24-2012, 03:52 PM
You can't have it both ways, you can't say '5 years only' and then say you want in on athletic 27 year old free agents. Just accept that you're basically shutting off one of the three pipelines to acquiring elite talent and move on.

wamco
05-24-2012, 04:13 PM
[QUOTE=Sanyo;22294983]Every team has issues... DEAL WITH IT! You dont throw money at it to make the problem go away (like someone else mentioned look at the mess Pujols will put the Angels through, already said before the season starts they were going to regret that deal big time, though even I will admit I didnt think it would be this quick). Jays still have a loaded farm system and one of the best in the business -- some will make it, some wont. Some who might be near the top will fail and likewise there could be a player or two who didnt even break the top 25 Blue Jays prospect list this year who could be the next break through star -- hard to say.


That is your opinion, and here is the truth.
From Fangraphs:
Fangraphs study translating farm system rankings to wins


http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index...ngs-into-wins/

"Payroll in 2007 can tell you about FOUR times as much as about the difference between teams over the next five years as farm-system rankings can. As bright as the Rangers’ future may look, the Yankees future is probably a bit brighter. Even still, 41 wins difference between the top and bottom teams is not small. If the White Sox were to ask the Rangers to swap farm systems, a fair price would be about $235 million. That’s useful, but the foundation of a big payroll — a large coastal city full of deep pocketed fans, a regional sports network and a retro-classic stadium— is worth a lot more than that. And now we have some numbers that tell us about how much."

mtf
05-24-2012, 04:59 PM
For reference
Prince Fielder
.285/.346/.461/.807

Since we're playing the hypothetical game, swap that slumping (but still pretty good line) of Prince Fielder with Adam Lind, and the Jays have one of the 3 team OPS's in baseball. Meanwhile, Prince Fielder signed the 9 year contract just after turning 27 years old. He would be 36 when the contract ended. How is David Ortiz doing these days? Hypothetical scenario's can work both ways.

Everyone keeps saying, or implying, that they love the financial flexibility that comes with a low payroll. If the team is unwilling to use those finances, what good are they.

alistar
05-24-2012, 05:45 PM
[QUOTE=Sanyo;22294983]Every team has issues... DEAL WITH IT! You dont throw money at it to make the problem go away (like someone else mentioned look at the mess Pujols will put the Angels through, already said before the season starts they were going to regret that deal big time, though even I will admit I didnt think it would be this quick). Jays still have a loaded farm system and one of the best in the business -- some will make it, some wont. Some who might be near the top will fail and likewise there could be a player or two who didnt even break the top 25 Blue Jays prospect list this year who could be the next break through star -- hard to say.


That is your opinion, and here is the truth.
From Fangraphs:
Fangraphs study translating farm system rankings to wins


http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index...ngs-into-wins/

"Payroll in 2007 can tell you about FOUR times as much as about the difference between teams over the next five years as farm-system rankings can. As bright as the Rangers’ future may look, the Yankees future is probably a bit brighter. Even still, 41 wins difference between the top and bottom teams is not small. If the White Sox were to ask the Rangers to swap farm systems, a fair price would be about $235 million. That’s useful, but the foundation of a big payroll — a large coastal city full of deep pocketed fans, a regional sports network and a retro-classic stadium— is worth a lot more than that. And now we have some numbers that tell us about how much."

I think the Yankees of the late 90's-early 2000's showed a team with large payrolls can easily dominate and win championships

ah nuts
05-24-2012, 09:27 PM
Since we're playing the hypothetical game, swap that slumping (but still pretty good line) of Prince Fielder with Adam Lind, and the Jays have one of the 3 team OPS's in baseball. Meanwhile, Prince Fielder signed the 9 year contract just after turning 27 years old. He would be 36 when the contract ended. How is David Ortiz doing these days? Hypothetical scenario's can work both ways.

Everyone keeps saying, or implying, that they love the financial flexibility that comes with a low payroll. If the team is unwilling to use those finances, what good are they.

IMO, for body type, fielder doesn't = Ortiz
(ie. Ortiz appears 2x as solid)
besides, Ortiz's performance is a freak of nature.

mtf
05-24-2012, 09:48 PM
IMO, for body type, fielder doesn't = Ortiz
(ie. Ortiz appears 2x as solid)
besides, Ortiz's performance is a freak of nature.

Prince Fielder has had between 157 and 162 games played in every season since he was a rookie. Also, at 9 years, the contract would take him to 36 ...so let's say he regresses after age 33 (to compromise). That'd mean you'd get the next at least the next 6 years of solid performance. Is that unreasonable? Do the Blue Jays expect to contend over the next 6 years?

I totally understand your position. You don't want the club to spend 1 dollar that it doesn't get extremely high value for. That's very reasonable. However, if you want to see top tier talent in a Blue Jays uniform, sometimes the organization will have to overpay a little. It's just the way business is done in a non-salary cap sport. Otherwise you end up with a team like Tampa Bay, which is a very nice little franchise but they're also a very flawed one. A team like the Texas Rangers, which is willing to develop homegrown talent and also acquire top talent from outside of the organization is the more viable example of sustained success. The New York Yankees also did this over the past 10-15 years.

ah nuts
05-24-2012, 10:22 PM
I totally understand your position. You don't want the club to spend 1 dollar that it doesn't get extremely high value for. That's very reasonable. However, if you want to see top tier talent in a Blue Jays uniform, sometimes the organization will have to overpay a little. It's just the way business is done in a non-salary cap sport. Otherwise you end up with a team like Tampa Bay, which is a very nice little franchise but they're also a very flawed one. A team like the Texas Rangers, which is willing to develop homegrown talent and also acquire top talent from outside of the organization is the more viable example of sustained success. The New York Yankees also did this over the past 10-15 years.

while I was not for the fielder signing, too much can go wrong, I DO believe the jays owe their fans at least one overpaid bat - highly overpaid if need be (in years).

and quite frankly these days, elite talent FA = highly overpaid.

albertajaysfan
05-24-2012, 10:49 PM
I like Butler as a bat I have advocated that one for awhile.

Another starting pitcher would be nice and I think Dempster is a solid option. I think we could afford to resign him in the off season. It would not be super long term so he gives us a nice cushion to bring along all the pitchers left in the farm even after picking him up.

I think we would need to part with a solid pitching prospect, average hitting prospect and average pitching prospect for Dempster.

Jenkins/Hutchison, A. J. Jimenez, Matt Wright (lefty with New Hampshire).

I think Butler could be had for a Major League relief pitcher, pitching prospect, low level positional prospect.

But I would be more interest in adding a pitcher first. Our hitters seem to put up a solid 4-6 runs a game. But never really seem to break.

Give the team another solid starter. Bautista getting back to form could have a dramatic effect on the offence for the whole team. However Butler would still be a nice addition.

mtf
05-24-2012, 10:56 PM
while I was not for the fielder signing, too much can go wrong, I DO believe the jays owe their fans at least one overpaid bat - highly overpaid if need be (in years).

and quite frankly these days, elite talent FA = highly overpaid.

Prince Fielder is a left handed power bat, with a career .283/.388/.536 line who plays 157+ games a year and was 27 years old at the time of the signing. If he looked like Lawrie instead of Ortiz, and thus left Anthopoulos & Beeston no excuses for not pursuing him, people would be much more in favor of this instead of merely drinking the blue and white kool-aid.

Which highly talented and thus highly paid batter do you think is a viable alternative? The only alternative I saw was holding out hope for Joey Votto. That door has now been shut.

What's left, Josh Hamilton? Let's assume he hits free agency and that the Jays are willing to meet his price. Is he a better alternative? 31 years old, history of injury and doesn't really fit the positional requirements as well (although an argument could be made for moving him or Bautista to first base, and then you have to convince one of them to do it).

JaysFan87
05-24-2012, 11:59 PM
Prince Fielder has had between 157 and 162 games played in every season since he was a rookie. Also, at 9 years, the contract would take him to 36 ...so let's say he regresses after age 33 (to compromise). That'd mean you'd get the next at least the next 6 years of solid performance. Is that unreasonable? Do the Blue Jays expect to contend over the next 6 years?

I totally understand your position. You don't want the club to spend 1 dollar that it doesn't get extremely high value for. That's very reasonable. However, if you want to see top tier talent in a Blue Jays uniform, sometimes the organization will have to overpay a little. It's just the way business is done in a non-salary cap sport. Otherwise you end up with a team like Tampa Bay, which is a very nice little franchise but they're also a very flawed one. A team like the Texas Rangers, which is willing to develop homegrown talent and also acquire top talent from outside of the organization is the more viable example of sustained success. The New York Yankees also did this over the past 10-15 years.


For what its worth they havent significantly overspent in Fa and developed teh core before they brought in players through the outside. They dont have one 6+ year contract. The only expensive FA they have is Beltre and Darvish both on short term high dollar contracts and who are very good players and taking beltre's defense into account is a top 3 3rd basemen in the league.

Again the importance of their success was developing their core (Kinsler, Hamilton, Young, Cruz, Feliz, Lewis) and then supplementing through tradees and smart FA signings. This is also the first time they have had a payroll over 100 (120 right) and they have made the WS the last 2 years. If i had to pick a team that will win multiple WS over the next 5-8 years I would definitely pick the rangers. Their formula was build your team through the system then supplement the team with trades and smart FA signings. I think thats what AA is doing here.

mtf
05-25-2012, 02:22 AM
For what its worth they havent significantly overspent in Fa and developed teh core before they brought in players through the outside. They dont have one 6+ year contract. The only expensive FA they have is Beltre and Darvish both on short term high dollar contracts and who are very good players and taking beltre's defense into account is a top 3 3rd basemen in the league.

Again the importance of their success was developing their core (Kinsler, Hamilton, Young, Cruz, Feliz, Lewis) and then supplementing through tradees and smart FA signings. This is also the first time they have had a payroll over 100 (120 right) and they have made the WS the last 2 years. If i had to pick a team that will win multiple WS over the next 5-8 years I would definitely pick the rangers. Their formula was build your team through the system then supplement the team with trades and smart FA signings. I think thats what AA is doing here.

They did go after Cliff Lee before they made any World Series appearances, unlike Anthopoulos who will not acquire people if they make more than $5m/y. They also made a play for Prince Fielder too, and will be the leading candidate to sign Josh Hamilton this winter. I think sitting back, waiting for homegrown talent to get you to the World Series is not a solid plan. I like acquiring a Cliff Lee type to help you get there, whether it's through trade or free agency. If you see a reasonable avenue of improvement, you take it.

There's also an opportunity for the Blue Jays to make a push to win the AL East. They're in a very good position to do so. The division is, at least arguably, at it's weakest point in well over a decade. The Blue Jays do have a good core of talent on the team, which is not perfect (no team is) but is very capable of becoming a true contender if they added a couple more pieces. And finally, they have the richest ownership in baseball. Signing Prince Fielder would not handcuff this team. If they had signed him and been a first place team (just another hypothetical) revenues would be even higher. This city is really getting behind the team and hungry for a real winner. This is an opportunity being squandered.

The_Jet11
05-25-2012, 03:11 AM
The benefit of free agency is that you dont have to give up organizational assets. Just money, and in some cases draft picks. At some point, they are going to have to spend in order to get top flight talent.

As with all trades, its diffiult to come away thinking that the organization got distintly better overnight. Trades end up as exchanges of what one club values at that time, for what another club values or seeks. Adding at the trade deadline, is just exchanging futures for current talent in most cases. ADDING really only occurs through free ageny, when you can plug a player into a whole in your lineup, while relinquishing only the money it costs to sign the player.

I know the price for Fielder was huge, but that was certainly an opportuonity to try to add. Lets hope AA can find a way to put us closer to ocntention this year, without sacrifiing too much of the future.

wamco
05-25-2012, 08:18 AM
looks like a bunch of wasted dough on cordero

JaysFan87
05-25-2012, 08:43 AM
They did go after Cliff Lee before they made any World Series appearances, unlike Anthopoulos who will not acquire people if they make more than $5m/y. They also made a play for Prince Fielder too, and will be the leading candidate to sign Josh Hamilton this winter. I think sitting back, waiting for homegrown talent to get you to the World Series is not a solid plan. I like acquiring a Cliff Lee type to help you get there, whether it's through trade or free agency. If you see a reasonable avenue of improvement, you take it.

But ultimately didnt get him. Same goes with Fielder, I would assume that they stopped when the term got ridiculous. And when the rangers acquired Lee they were already goood enough to legitimately make the playoffs without him and were much ahead in the development curve than the jays.


There's also an opportunity for the Blue Jays to make a push to win the AL East. They're in a very good position to do so. The division is, at least arguably, at it's weakest point in well over a decade. The Blue Jays do have a good core of talent on the team, which is not perfect (no team is) but is very capable of becoming a true contender if they added a couple more pieces. And finally, they have the richest ownership in baseball. Signing Prince Fielder would not handcuff this team. If they had signed him and been a first place team (just another hypothetical) revenues would be even higher. This city is really getting behind the team and hungry for a real winner. This is an opportunity being squandered.

Fielder or any other 7-9 year contract is not something AA wants to do, from what i've read. Nothing says you need to make a big FA splash to get good players again see the Texas Rangers. AA has said numourous times that if his team shows its making progress then he has no problem making trades and using the minor leagues to boost the mlb team.

JaysFan87
05-25-2012, 08:43 AM
looks like a bunch of wasted dough on cordero

no risk not huge money and one year deal.

wamco
05-25-2012, 09:23 AM
for a team on their payroll, i'd say 4-5M for a middle reliever is worthwhile. The risk so far is that he has done his best to cost us a few games already 1/4 way into the season.

If AA prefers the trade route, fine. Get making some trades.

AA09-?
05-25-2012, 09:47 AM
for a team on their payroll, i'd say 4-5M for a middle reliever is worthwhile. The risk so far is that he has done his best to cost us a few games already 1/4 way into the season.

If AA prefers the trade route, fine. Get making some trades.

It's not even June yet, settle down.

Krylian
05-25-2012, 11:29 AM
for a team on their payroll, i'd say 4-5M for a middle reliever is worthwhile. The risk so far is that he has done his best to cost us a few games already 1/4 way into the season.

If AA prefers the trade route, fine. Get making some trades.

And if other GM's aren't ready to move their players? You can't play GM solitaire.

wamco
05-25-2012, 11:36 AM
or last offseason??

StayOnBoard
05-25-2012, 12:43 PM
But ultimately didnt get him. Same goes with Fielder, I would assume that they stopped when the term got ridiculous. And when the rangers acquired Lee they were already goood enough to legitimately make the playoffs without him and were much ahead in the development curve than the jays.

Well said, I was going to state something similar but you beat me to it. Ironically people bring up the Rangers but forget when they were a 5th place team and made strong trades in order to build up their farm with young stars and NOW they're spending money because they're one of the best teams in baseball.

Hamilton - got in a trade for Volquez *snicker when he was a prospect
Feliz - traded for when he was a prospect
Kinsler - home grown
Elvis Andrus - traded for when he was a prospect
Nelson Cruz - traded for when he was a nobody... might as well be home grown
Michael Young - traded for when he was a prospect *ouch.... :(
Adrian Beltre - signed as a high profile free agent once they were winning. Isn't he the only guy who was signed as an actual free agent besides Darvish?
Yu Darvish - signed as a high profile free agent

Let's look at this further


Texas Rangers - year by year/ win and loses
2001 - $47.74 million -- 73-89
2002 - $105.73 million -- 72-90
2003 -- $103.49 million -- 71-91
2004 -- $55.05 million -- 89-73 (ironic huh?)
2005 -- $55.85 million --79-83
--------- Jon Daniels takes over ---------------
2006 -- $68.23 million -- 80-82
2007 -- $68.32 million --75-87
2008 -- $67.71 million -- 79-83
2009 -- $68.18 million -- 87-75
2010 -- $64.81 million -- 90-72
2011 -- $92.30 million -- 96-66
2012 -- $120.50 million -- ????


I think the Jays are following a very similar model. Glad AA doesn't do knee jerk reactions based on what fans think.


And if other GM's aren't ready to move their players? You can't play GM solitaire.

You can in wamco land ;)

All jokes aside, Im sure AA WILL go the trade route once the time comes. As you said though, it's almost impossible to do this early because teams aren't ready to jump ship until at least late June/early July.

If the Jays are still only a few games back from the division by that point I would expect them to be buyers, sell off some prospects and pick up a bat or a starter (some RPers wouldn't hurt either).

Basically, in order for the Jays to succeed they need to trade junk players for future or current stars. That'll finally be enough to make the fan base happy.

2009mvp
05-25-2012, 01:10 PM
TV contract ain't coming, and revenue sharing is disappearing. I wouldn't expect the Jays to follow that payroll model in the next few years.

albertajaysfan
05-25-2012, 01:22 PM
TV contract ain't coming, and revenue sharing is disappearing. I wouldn't expect the Jays to follow that payroll model in the next few years.

Although a TV contract is not coming that is because we are in the unique situation of being owned by the company who has the TV rights. Then can give the Jays as much or as little as they want of the TV revenue they gain from ball games.

2009mvp
05-25-2012, 01:36 PM
^^I'd answer that, but I really don't wanna turn this into another 'screw Rogers' thread.

mtf
05-25-2012, 05:38 PM
But ultimately didnt get him. Same goes with Fielder, I would assume that they stopped when the term got ridiculous. And when the rangers acquired Lee they were already goood enough to legitimately make the playoffs without him and were much ahead in the development curve than the jays.


Well said, I was going to state something similar but you beat me to it. Ironically people bring up the Rangers but forget when they were a 5th place team and made strong trades in order to build up their farm with young stars and NOW they're spending money because they're one of the best teams in baseball.

Hamilton - got in a trade for Volquez *snicker when he was a prospect
Feliz - traded for when he was a prospect
Kinsler - home grown
Elvis Andrus - traded for when he was a prospect
Nelson Cruz - traded for when he was a nobody... might as well be home grown
Michael Young - traded for when he was a prospect *ouch.... :(
Adrian Beltre - signed as a high profile free agent once they were winning. Isn't he the only guy who was signed as an actual free agent besides Darvish?
Yu Darvish - signed as a high profile free agent

Let's look at this further

I think the Jays are following a very similar model. Glad AA doesn't do knee jerk reactions based on what fans think.

You can in wamco land ;)

All jokes aside, Im sure AA WILL go the trade route once the time comes. As you said though, it's almost impossible to do this early because teams aren't ready to jump ship until at least late June/early July.

If the Jays are still only a few games back from the division by that point I would expect them to be buyers, sell off some prospects and pick up a bat or a starter (some RPers wouldn't hurt either).

Basically, in order for the Jays to succeed they need to trade junk players for future or current stars. That'll finally be enough to make the fan base happy.

Instead of addressing every single sentence from both of you, I'll try to be concise and simply say that the Blue Jays are developing players, both at the major league level and in the farm system. There is no issue with that. The issue is simply that they are unwilling to seize an opportunity.

Texas could afford to sit back, in a division from Texas' perspective that was incredibly weak. They could take their time and just decide when they wanted to go for it. They didn't decide to simply sit on their hands and wait, they did go out and sign a (somewhat younger) Vladimir Guerrero, acquire Cliff Lee, sign Adrian Beltre, trade for Mike Adams and Koji Uehara, and sign Joe Nathan.

The Blue Jays on the other hand should try to recognize that their division is incredibly difficult, and they can't simply wait for it to be handed to them. They should be less conservative, and more proactive. That being said, the time was this past off-season. Prince Fielder, and to a lesser extent Yu Darvish as well, was an opportunity missed. Neither would have cost the organization it's future, it would have merely added to it.

StayOnBoard
05-25-2012, 07:39 PM
Instead of addressing every single sentence from both of you, I'll try to be concise and simply say that the Blue Jays are developing players, both at the major league level and in the farm system. There is no issue with that. The issue is simply that they are unwilling to seize an opportunity.

Texas could afford to sit back, in a division from Texas' perspective that was incredibly weak. They could take their time and just decide when they wanted to go for it. They didn't decide to simply sit on their hands and wait, they did go out and sign a (somewhat younger) Vladimir Guerrero, acquire Cliff Lee, sign Adrian Beltre, trade for Mike Adams and Koji Uehara, and sign Joe Nathan.

The Blue Jays on the other hand should try to recognize that their division is incredibly difficult, and they can't simply wait for it to be handed to them. They should be less conservative, and more proactive. That being said, the time was this past off-season. Prince Fielder, and to a lesser extent Yu Darvish as well, was an opportunity missed. Neither would have cost the organization it's future, it would have merely added to it.

So, you're saying Texas waited 9 years to get competitive because they are in a weaker division? :confused:


Vladimir Guerrero, acquire Cliff Lee, sign Adrian Beltre, trade for Mike Adams and Koji Uehara, and sign Joe Nathan.

Almost every one of these examples happened in the past 3 years, which means you completely missed my entire post.


TV contract ain't coming, and revenue sharing is disappearing. I wouldn't expect the Jays to follow that payroll model in the next few years.

I agree with you, but they will follow the smart trades/develop prospects and HOPEFULLY shell out when the time is right.

If we're in a wildcard position and the deadline passes without a major move, I'll be just as pissed as the rest of you.... but you can't trade with yourself, no one is selling off players this time of year, so you gotta sit back and wait for another month and a half or so and see what happens.

mtf
05-25-2012, 07:52 PM
Almost every one of these examples happened in the past 3 years, which means you completely missed my entire post.

I've merely agreed to disagree with you. I don't think the timeline of any other specific team must mirror that of the Blue Jays.

All I'm saying is that when an opportunity presents itself (an opportunity is made up of many factors, including division, available potential trade acquisitions, development of homegrown talent, etc) that the organization should seize that opportunity, especially as it relates to free agency which doesn't require giving up the farm system to vastly improve.

Texas went for it before making the World Series, and as such it has worked out for them. Also, their Mark Texiera trade in 2007 (much like the Blue Jays trade with Roy Halladay in 2009) sparked the turn-around of the franchise. 3 years later they were in the World Series with several of their players.

These organizations seem reasonably comparable to me, but they are not identical. Each team should still run itself according to it's own individual circumstances.

PatsPropaganda
05-27-2012, 09:56 PM
We have a good group of hitters , but I would like to see the Jays trade for another SP to help out Romero , Morrow has been playing good lately but we need one more and I think we have a legitimate shot at playoffs and maybe even a WS.

The_Jet11
05-27-2012, 10:17 PM
Is everyone still against my proposition of going after a SP? After this series, it has exposed at perhaps our rotation had performed over their heads a little bit, thus far. Drabek is still a huge question mark in my opinion, morrow got lit up but is still having a great year, alvarez hasnt proven that he can get a big strikeout just yet, ricky has pitched below the standard we have come to expect/count on from him, and hutch looks like a pup out there..improving, but could use more than a handful of starts above A-ball before being counted as a key piece of our rotation today.

Call Kenny Williams. Offer him a reasonable deal for Peavy and Paul "Ted Williams" Konerko, and get this ship back on course. I know the Chi Sox are playing some good ball right now, so they are probably unlikely to sell, but you understand the point I am trying to make. Let your players know that you think they are good enough to get into the playoffs by making a few marquee moves, and it just may boost the teams performance statistically, and mentally.

dballss
05-27-2012, 11:48 PM
let so many solid experienced 1-3 starters, 3-5 power bats and closers slip away this summer, coming back to haunt us

alistar
05-28-2012, 11:46 AM
Is everyone still against my proposition of going after a SP? After this series, it has exposed at perhaps our rotation had performed over their heads a little bit, thus far. Drabek is still a huge question mark in my opinion, morrow got lit up but is still having a great year, alvarez hasnt proven that he can get a big strikeout just yet, ricky has pitched below the standard we have come to expect/count on from him, and hutch looks like a pup out there..improving, but could use more than a handful of starts above A-ball before being counted as a key piece of our rotation today.

Call Kenny Williams. Offer him a reasonable deal for Peavy and Paul "Ted Williams" Konerko, and get this ship back on course. I know the Chi Sox are playing some good ball right now, so they are probably unlikely to sell, but you understand the point I am trying to make. Let your players know that you think they are good enough to get into the playoffs by making a few marquee moves, and it just may boost the teams performance statistically, and mentally.

No one's against your proposition. If you can find a team willing to trade a #1or #2 starter at this point in the season, then you should be the GM. And the White Sox aren't going to trade Konerko.

Converged
05-28-2012, 12:36 PM
No one's against your proposition. If you can find a team willing to trade a #1or #2 starter at this point in the season, then you should be the GM. And the White Sox aren't going to trade Konerko.

Exactly. I don't think AA and his brass are oblivious to what we need, it's just that it's extremely hard or expensive to achieve it.

If you haven't noticed, there really hasn't been any significant trades in all of baseball this year yet. Most teams wait until June and July to see where they are at.

Once players do become available, it's still very rare for a quality pitcher to be on the market unless they are a rental (impending FA) or the selling team can cash in big.

It's easy to sit here and type how we should just go and get Felix or Lincecum, but it's nearly impossible to do so in real life unless we give up Lawrie, Gose, TdA, and likely a few more prospects.

You can't have your cake and eat it to.

bartron_44
05-28-2012, 03:25 PM
No one's against your proposition. If you can find a team willing to trade a #1or #2 starter at this point in the season, then you should be the GM. And the White Sox aren't going to trade Konerko.

the White Sox are playing good again, so it will be tough to get their good players from KW.

I think Epstein would be willing to trade Ryan Dempster though....and no I don't want him because he is canadian....He is getting no run support from the Cubs for some reason, but has an ERA of 2.14 and a WHIP of 1.061 over his first 8 starts with 50 K's and only 15 BB's in 54 innings pitched.

He isn't someone I would want to lock up long term, but he would be a nice addition the way he is throwing the ball this year. He should be at worst 6-2 after his first 8 starts.

The cubs are going no where this year with their miserable offense and bullpen and need some good young talent, so a package of prospects should do the trick to add Dempster. AA should do this now so we can stay a float in June imo.

wagnall
05-28-2012, 03:50 PM
the White Sox are playing good again, so it will be tough to get their good players from KW.

I think Epstein would be willing to trade Ryan Dempster though....and no I don't want him because he is canadian....He is getting no run support from the Cubs for some reason, but has an ERA of 2.14 and a WHIP of 1.061 over his first 8 starts with 50 K's and only 15 BB's in 54 innings pitched.

He isn't someone I would want to lock up long term, but he would be a nice addition the way he is throwing the ball this year. He should be at worst 6-2 after his first 8 starts.

The cubs are going no where this year with their miserable offense and bullpen and need some good young talent, so a package of prospects should do the trick to add Dempster. AA should do this now so we can stay a float in June imo.


I like Dempster as well, have recently heard some chatter from other teams about him as well. He gets pretty well 0 run support and eats alot of innings and when you realize he's raking up those innings with a team that can't score then thats impressive.. But do you want him as a rental as he is a FA this year, makes 14m and is 35. Not sure what we do with him after this season.
Your thoughts? :)

T.O. Fan
05-28-2012, 07:34 PM
......Um......to the OP, nothing yet.

Raps08-09 Champ
05-28-2012, 11:18 PM
Roy Oswalt? :shrug:

alistar
05-28-2012, 11:52 PM
Roy Oswalt? :shrug:

He ain't going to Toronto.

mtf
05-29-2012, 04:26 AM
Roy Oswalt? :shrug:

In addition to the fact that he's apparently asking for way too much money, he also is being very selective with his possible destinations. Toronto would not fit the bill either way.

wagnall
05-29-2012, 04:06 PM
Bet Texas signs him. Greedy bastards, but they are going to load up what ever they can to win it this year.

Kelly Gruber
05-29-2012, 04:11 PM
Oswalt knows Nolan Ryan and is from Mississippi which is fairly close to Texas, where he already knows what to expect from his days in Houston. Add to that Feliz hitting the DL and I think we'll see Oswalt in Texas imminently.

Toxeryll
05-29-2012, 04:11 PM
Bet Texas signs him. Greedy bastards, but they are going to load up what ever they can to win it this year.

theyll still lose the world series

wagnall
05-29-2012, 05:39 PM
Oswalt signed with the Rangers. If he is called up by July1 he gets 8m pro-rated, which means he gets 4m for 3 months .