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View Full Version : Charles Barkley: Heat management needs to get LeBron more Help!



KB-Pau-DH2012
05-20-2012, 02:00 AM
:speechless:

(Just now on inside the NBA)

MetroMan
05-20-2012, 02:02 AM
Can they trade for JESUS?

Lebron
Jesus
Wade
Bosh

-Kobe24-TJ19-
05-20-2012, 02:02 AM
More help lmao:laugh2:

He has a top5 player in Dwayne wade.

Fly
05-20-2012, 02:05 AM
lol, two top 20 players (one of them's a top 5) couldn't get it done?

GSWFanInLA
05-20-2012, 02:06 AM
Can they trade for JESUS?

Lebron
Jesus
Wade
Bosh

lmao :clap:

Raps18-19 Champ
05-20-2012, 02:06 AM
I think he meant a more rounded team. So trade 1 of Wade or Bosh for a better overall team.

Chronz
05-20-2012, 02:09 AM
They dont give Bosh enough respect, but they do need a defensive center. Championships are won with bigmen, if they had Bosh they would have a shot in the Finals. Hell if they had Wade they would have a shot vs Indiana.

naps
05-20-2012, 02:20 AM
Yes he has Wade and Bosh. What's after that? Barkley ain't stupid. The guy himself is one of the greatest players of all time. He knows what a complete team look like and he knows what effective role players mean to a team. Yeah, it's no rocket science. No need to put those :speechless: signs.

lakers24win
05-20-2012, 02:21 AM
:laugh2: Barkley is such a idiot. More excuses pile on for the Heats

NYtilIdie
05-20-2012, 02:21 AM
The Heat's supporting cast have the easiest job in the NBA but they can't even do that right :laugh2:

WITZ
05-20-2012, 02:23 AM
Same excuse, different place.

Chronz
05-20-2012, 02:23 AM
:laugh2: Barkley is such a idiot. More excuses pile on for the Heats

http://i.qkme.me/3oghl2.jpg

JoeyBoy718
05-20-2012, 02:24 AM
Can they trade for JESUS?

Lebron
Jesus
Wade
Bosh

But Jesus couldn't play point guard AND center. You'd have to throw Moses in too.

MetroMan
05-20-2012, 02:25 AM
Whats next? the climate is to blame

fadahway
05-20-2012, 02:27 AM
Can they trade for JESUS?

Lebron
Jesus
Wade
Bosh

Have some respect man!!!!

MetroMan
05-20-2012, 02:30 AM
I mean seriously. They have the best player in the nba possibly top 10 in NBA history, They have wade, top 2 nba sg. Bosh, top 3 PF.

No one ever mentions Chalmers.... he is very good. great defender, very good 3 point shooter. He is better than most PG's in the nba

they also have Battier. enough said. 3's and d

mike miller. 3's

they have hard nosed centers not the best but they are worth there price tag.

jesus christ what else they want? huh? Do they want Muhammed the prophet? Buddha? what else they fkn want.

Bulls_fan90
05-20-2012, 02:32 AM
Can they trade for JESUS?

Lebron
Tebow
Wade
Bosh

*Fixed.

JoeyBoy718
05-20-2012, 02:36 AM
*Fixed.

Tebow would fix their 4th quarter issues.

BlondeBomber41
05-20-2012, 02:38 AM
I was just saying this earlier in the Heat forum. The big three of LBJ, Wade and Bosh chose to be in this situation. They were fully aware when the Heat stripped their roster bone dry in order to add Lebron and Bosh to Dwyane Wade they'd have to settle for cheap, minimum wage, potentially declining players put around them unless some younger players decided to come for less than what they are worth.

Mike Miller, Shane Battier, Juwan Howard, Joel Anthony, James Jones, Udonis Haslem as he declines, Ronny Turiaf.... those are the kinda players the Heat are gonna surround the big 3 with. They realized when they joined up it would be that way, no reason to feel sorry for them.

Chronz
05-20-2012, 02:43 AM
I was just saying this earlier in the Heat forum. The big three of LBJ, Wade and Bosh chose to be in this situation. They were fully aware when the Heat stripped their roster bone dry in order to add Lebron and Bosh to Dwyane Wade they'd have to settle for cheap, minimum wage, potentially declining players put around them unless some younger players decided to come for less than what they are worth.

Mike Miller, Shane Battier, Juwan Howard, Joel Anthony, James Jones, Udonis Haslem as he declines, Ronny Turiaf.... those are the kinda players the Heat are gonna surround the big 3 with. They realized when they joined up it would be that way, no reason to feel sorry for them.

It didnt HAVE to be that way tho, they should have stuck with signing young prospects that could thrive with the Big3 and not overpay for D-Leaguers. They chose the wrong shooter to target with their MLE (Either Korver or Wright were obviously better fits), they overpaid for Joel. Teams have been able to build a bench with less money than what they shelled out for has beens and never will bes. Look around the league, it doesnt take awhole lot to build a decent bench.

John Walls Era
05-20-2012, 02:46 AM
why are hof players past their prime not dying to sign up? the gp, alonzo, karl malones of the world

Chronz
05-20-2012, 02:46 AM
I mean seriously. They have the best player in the nba possibly top 10 in NBA history, They have wade, top 2 nba sg. Bosh, top 3 PF.

No one ever mentions Chalmers.... he is very good. great defender, very good 3 point shooter. He is better than most PG's in the nba

they also have Battier. enough said. 3's and d

mike miller. 3's

they have hard nosed centers not the best but they are worth there price tag.

jesus christ what else they want? huh? Do they want Muhammed the prophet? Buddha? what else they fkn want.

Chalmers is a decent player but for you to say hes better than most PG's in the NBA sounds incredibly far fetched. What are you basing that opinion on?

Battier, 3's and D are non-existent.

Mike Miller rarely shoots and is a horrible fit alongside Wade/Bron. Korver and Wright were smarter options.

Saying Joel is worth his price tag is like saying gas is cheap. You must not remember the good ol days. Joel is trash.

Bosh is good, and so is Wade, but in case you havent noticed they have gone MIA.

Chronz
05-20-2012, 02:48 AM
why are hof players past their prime not dying to sign up? the gp, alonzo, karl malones of the world

There arent any at the C position. Well actually Shaq was available but Riley let his ego interfere. Theyve done a horrible job addressing their bench. And any halfway good center can command more than what they can offer.

Put it this way, they couldnt even afford Kwame Brown. And man would he be a huge upgrade on Joel.

Lakers + Giants
05-20-2012, 02:48 AM
What's next? The 15th player isn't good enough?

KB-Pau-DH2012
05-20-2012, 02:51 AM
No excuse, the "Heatles" said they could basically win multiple championships with the big 3 and anyone else to fill in the gaps. Hell, LeBron even basically gave a shout out to Pat Riley who was in the crowd part of that stupid pre-season celebration when he said that the Heat can win with Univ. of Kentucky Pat Riley running the point.

He also said that they'd work hard at practices, and once the games would come, the games would be easy as ****.


No one should feel sorry for them and no, LeBron should not get more help than what he already has. He said he can win multiple titles like it's nothing. If he wants more help, then the POS should probably beg Pat Riley to leave his management position with the Heat and come out of retirement with his Kentucky short shorts on.

JoeyBoy718
05-20-2012, 02:52 AM
It didnt HAVE to be that way tho, they should have stuck with signing young prospects that could thrive with the Big3 and not overpay for D-Leaguers. They chose the wrong shooter to target with their MLE (Either Korver or Wright were obviously better fits), they overpaid for Joel. Teams have been able to build a bench with less money than what they shelled out for has beens and never will bes. Look around the league, it doesnt take awhole lot to build a decent bench.

They didn't overpay for D-leaguers. They underpaid for solid veterans who were coveted by other teams and could have signed for much more. Haslem could have made 2-3 times what he decided to stay in Miami for. Many teams wanted Battier. Miller could have signed for more. You're acting like these aren't proven veteran role players. When Miami started putting "the other" players around the Big 3 last season, people were saying how unfair it was that they were getting all these quality guys for cheap. "Riley is a freakin genius!!!" Now, all of a sudden, these guys are bums.

John Walls Era
05-20-2012, 02:53 AM
Only Barkley makes excuses for him because he hates seeing Skip Bayless being right and I bet he feels sorry for players like him and Lebron (talented individuals who won mvp, but get a lot of heat for never winning it all).

SportsAndrew25
05-20-2012, 02:53 AM
It is just embarrassing how bad the Heat are playing. I know there are some injured players, but you should be better than this.

greg_ory_2005
05-20-2012, 02:55 AM
Not enough help for Lebron? Sounds kinda ironic.

3ballbomber
05-20-2012, 02:56 AM
Can they trade for JESUS?

Lebron
Jesus
Wade
Bosh

Lebron
Wade
Jesus
Bosh
God

Bench:

Buddha
Allah
Godzilla
The Hulk
The Invisible man
The Flash




................................... STILL LOSE :facepalm:

JoeyBoy718
05-20-2012, 02:57 AM
There arent any at the C position. Well actually Shaq was available but Riley let his ego interfere. Theyve done a horrible job addressing their bench. And any halfway good center can command more than what they can offer.

Put it this way, they couldnt even afford Kwame Brown. And man would he be a huge upgrade on Joel.

Stop sticking up for these guys. You know there's a thing called a salary cap. If you sign 3 guys for the near max, you have to build around them with a bunch of minimum salary players. It's called math. Teams choose how they want to spend their money, but they all get the same amount of money to spend. The Pacers spent their money on 8-9 solid players, but no superstars. That's how it works. This is how Miami chose to spend their money. You reap what you sow.

Yunqn
05-20-2012, 02:58 AM
Wade/bosh/chalmers for dwight/nelson/anderson/reddick should be thought of honestly..

The heat would be deeper and anderson would be filling for bosh's role perfectly with tr spot up..miller should be amnesty or traded for players that actually play.. But this would be a dream style team for lebron and dwight ..both have space and finally have a respectable inside out combo with one another..

Just my opinion

John Walls Era
05-20-2012, 02:58 AM
There arent any at the C position. Well actually Shaq was available but Riley let his ego interfere. Theyve done a horrible job addressing their bench. And any halfway good center can command more than what they can offer.

Put it this way, they couldnt even afford Kwame Brown. And man would he be a huge upgrade on Joel.

Good luck finding one. Theres no good FA C they can afford this summer except Marcus Camby and Oden. You don't even need a low post scoring C anyways, just someone who can alter some shots.

John Walls Era
05-20-2012, 02:58 AM
Wade/bosh/chalmers for dwight/nelson/anderson/reddick should be thought of honestly..

The heat would be deeper and anderson would be filling for bosh's role perfectly with tr spot up..miller should be amnesty or traded for players that actually play.. But this would be a dream style team for lebron and dwight ..both have space and finally have a respectable inside out combo with one another..

Just my opinion

Dwight doesn't like Lebron.

MetroMan
05-20-2012, 03:00 AM
Lebron
Wade
Jesus
Bosh
God

Bench:

Buddha
Allah
Godzilla
The Hulk
The Invisible man
The Flash




................................... STILL LOSE :facepalm:

No man they still need more help bro

Thor
Iron man
Casper the Ghost
Jason Voorhees
Zeus

3ballbomber
05-20-2012, 03:01 AM
No man they still need more help bro

Thor
Iron man
Casper the Ghost
Jason Voorhees
Zeus

I dunno bro, Casper might get them over the hump.

JoeyBoy718
05-20-2012, 03:01 AM
Lebron
Wade
Jesus
Bosh
God

Bench:

Buddha
Allah
Godzilla
The Hulk
The Invisible man
The Flash




................................... STILL LOSE :facepalm:

How would they pass to the Invisible Man?

MetroMan
05-20-2012, 03:03 AM
I dunno bro, Casper might get them over the hump.

:laugh::hi5:

Teeboy1487
05-20-2012, 03:06 AM
Barkley is such a Lebron dick rider now.

Chronz
05-20-2012, 03:10 AM
No excuse, the "Heatles" said they could basically win multiple championships with the big 3 and anyone else to fill in the gaps.
Im not seeing a Big3 right now, thats the point Chuck is making.


Hell, LeBron even basically gave a shout out to Pat Riley who was in the crowd part of that stupid pre-season celebration when he said that the Heat can win with Univ. of Kentucky Pat Riley running the point.

He also said that they'd work hard at practices, and once the games would come, the games would be easy as ****.

Youve said this before and Ive corrected you before, yet you have never responded. He ALSO said how HARD it would be, and he said this in an actual interview setting where he wasnt playing to the crowd.


No one should feel sorry for them and no, LeBron should not get more help than what he already has. He said he can win multiple titles like it's nothing. If he wants more help, then the POS should probably beg Pat Riley to leave his management position with the Heat and come out of retirement with his Kentucky short shorts on.
LOL based on what?


They didn't overpay for D-leaguers. They underpaid for solid veterans who were coveted by other teams and could have signed for much more. Haslem could have made 2-3 times what he decided to stay in Miami for.
Notice how I didnt mention Haslem, the fact that hes been horrible is pure hindsight, his loss of a jumper has been a total mystery. But it doesnt change the fact that hes not the same guy anymore.


Many teams wanted Battier. Miller could have signed for more. You're acting like these aren't proven veteran role players. When Miami started putting "the other" players around the Big 3 last season, people were saying how unfair it was that they were getting all these quality guys for cheap. "Riley is a freakin genius!!!" Now, all of a sudden, these guys are bums.

Proven role players? So were Korver and Wright, the real difference is that they have more game and would have actually fit better. Not sure why you think Miller could have gotten more than the MLE but it doesnt change the fact that BETTER players who FIT better were available. He also grossly overpaid for Joel.
And I recall people questioning the Battier move as he was declining long before Miami, and didnt help address their issues in the frontcourt. Still Battier isnt a horrible signing like Miller/Joel were and Udonis (in hindsight).

Chronz
05-20-2012, 03:12 AM
Stop sticking up for these guys. You know there's a thing called a salary cap. If you sign 3 guys for the near max, you have to build around them with a bunch of minimum salary players. It's called math.
Thats why you should do the math, they have done a HORRIBLE job with the limited assets they had once they acquired the Big3. Bad signings, bad drafting.


Teams choose how they want to spend their money, but they all get the same amount of money to spend. The Pacers spent their money on 8-9 solid players, but no superstars. That's how it works. This is how Miami chose to spend their money. You reap what you sow.

LOL I never said they needed another superstar.

sixer04fan
05-20-2012, 03:13 AM
Can they trade for JESUS?

Lebron
Jesus
Wade
Bosh

Jesus himself might not crack the starting lineup. Lebron has PLENTY of help. Barkley is an idiot.

Chronz
05-20-2012, 03:14 AM
Good luck finding one. Theres no good FA C they can afford this summer except Marcus Camby and Oden. You don't even need a low post scoring C anyways, just someone who can alter some shots.
I never said they needed lowpost scoring, but a Center who isnt a complete non-factor would be a huge step up. And they are contenders regardless, Im just saying they did a bad job building the core around the Big3, so now that Bosh is out they are exposed.

Not many people have Bosh the credit he deserved, peoples scoffed when I said he was the most indispensable player they had outside of maybe Bron, but hey "like a bosh" was popular at the time.

Chronz
05-20-2012, 03:15 AM
Jesus himself might not crack the starting lineup. Lebron has PLENTY of help. Barkley is an idiot.
Where is the help?

3ballbomber
05-20-2012, 03:17 AM
How would they pass to the Invisible Man?
he would be a beast on defense ;)

JoeyBoy718
05-20-2012, 03:17 AM
Im not seeing a Big3 right now, thats the point Chuck is making.


Youve said this before and Ive corrected you before, yet you have never responded. He ALSO said how HARD it would be, and he said this in an actual interview setting where he wasnt playing to the crowd.


LOL based on what?


Notice how I didnt mention Haslem, the fact that hes been horrible is pure hindsight, his loss of a jumper has been a total mystery. But it doesnt change the fact that hes not the same guy anymore.


Proven role players? So were Korver and Wright, the real difference is that they have more game and would have actually fit better. Not sure why you think Miller could have gotten more than the MLE but it doesnt change the fact that BETTER players who FIT better were available. He also grossly overpaid for Joel.
And I recall people questioning the Battier move as he was declining long before Miami, and didnt help address their issues in the frontcourt. Still Battier isnt a horrible signing like Miller/Joel were and Udonis (in hindsight).

I live in Miami. I spend a lot of time in my car going back and forth between work/school/home. During that time I listen to the 3 big Miami AM radio sports stations. For the past 6 months I've been listening to the hosts and the callers bragging about how great of a signing the Battier signing was. For the past 2 years I've been hearing about how much of a genius Riley was for "stealing" guys like Haslem and Miller. Maybe Korver didn't want to come to Miami. And you can't say it was "obviously" a bad signing AFTER the fact. That's the beauty of free agency. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

LeMarcus
05-20-2012, 03:18 AM
where is the help? lol

Chronz
05-20-2012, 03:18 AM
For those of you mentioning the Big3's salary as the reason why they couldnt build a deeper core, let me remind you that the Spurs have been paying MORE for their Big3 for years and were able to build a VERY deep team. Maybe the Heat need more time but lets not act like its impossible to build around them. They just need smarter scouting.

LeMarcus
05-20-2012, 03:21 AM
I hope youre aware the new CBA makes it much more difficult for teams now than previous

natelpete
05-20-2012, 03:22 AM
Well, they really do.

JoeyBoy718
05-20-2012, 03:23 AM
For those of you mentioning the Big3's salary as the reason why they couldnt build a deeper core, let me remind you that the Spurs have been paying MORE for their Big3 for years and were able to build a VERY deep team. Maybe the Heat need more time but lets not act like its impossible to build around them. They just need smarter scouting.

The Spurs also land on their late draft picks. The Spurs know how to evaluate talent. They've been doing it for years. Manu and Parker weren't big names when they were drafted. The Spurs went out and found the guys. On the other hand, the Heat go out and sign the biggest names on the market. Why don't you give the Spurs credit for knowing how to evaluate talent? That's a skill that money can't buy.

Chronz
05-20-2012, 03:23 AM
I live in Miami. I spend a lot of time in my car going back and forth between work/school/home. During that time I listen to the 3 big Miami AM radio sports stations. For the past 6 months I've been listening to the hosts and the callers bragging about how great of a signing the Battier signing was. For the past 2 years I've been hearing about how much of a genius Riley was for "stealing" guys like Haslem and Miller. Maybe Korver didn't want to come to Miami. And you can't say it was "obviously" a bad trade AFTER the fact. That's the beauty of free agency. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
LOL and you agreed with them? And of course Wright was interested, Riley made the decision to go with Mike Miller. As for Korver, I dont see why he would be more interested in going to Chicago.
If I were you I wouldve called them and pointed out blatant facts like Miller being ball dominant, a hesitant shooter and not as good off the ball.

Again Battier wasnt as bad, but Joel was, but the point Im making is even if people drank the cool aid, it doesnt change the fact that they arent the players they thought they were. This isnt complex, plenty of teams have built better benches with less assets.

Chronz
05-20-2012, 03:24 AM
The Spurs also land on their late draft picks. The Spurs know how to evaluate talent. They've been doing it for years. Manu and Parker weren't build names when they were drafted. The Spurs went out and found the guys. On the other hand, the Heat go out and sign the biggest names on the market. Why don't you give the Spurs credit for knowing how to evaluate talent? That's a skill that money can't buy.
I am, thats basically the entire point that Im making.

KingsMadness44
05-20-2012, 03:28 AM
So let me get this straight. The best player in the world NEEDS better players in order to win games?

This is the same guy that took the Cav's to the finals in 07 WITHOUT a top 5 player? now that was a team full of nobodies or has beens!

The players that Lebron is playing with are not bad players, they're just not playing up to standards but make no mistake about it none of these players that Lebron has are scrubs like everyone is seeming to make it.

I mean do people just really want Lebron to win a championship that badly they have to give him the perfect team that meets his every want, need, and desire?

Chronz
05-20-2012, 03:31 AM
If you guys are saying he has the talent around him to win titles then yes thats true, but Bosh isnt around so their flaws outside the Big3 are being exposed. Riley has done a horrible job building around the Big3, that is an inescapable truth. I think thats all Chuck is hinting at. You guys are acting like they need another star when nobody is saying that.

Fnom11
05-20-2012, 03:35 AM
I think he meant a more rounded team. So trade 1 of Wade or Bosh for a better overall team.

It's exactly what he meant. It's pretty obvious Lebron and Wade + a bunch of bad role players can't cut it. People will just blow this statement out of proportion.

KingsMadness44
05-20-2012, 03:37 AM
If you guys are saying he has the talent around him to win titles then yes thats true, but Bosh isnt around so their flaws outside the Big3 are being exposed. Riley has done a horrible job building around the Big3, that is an inescapable truth. I think thats all Chuck is hinting at. You guys are acting like they need another star when nobody is saying that.

the point i am trying to make is he has done more with a lot less talent! So why is it that people think that Lebron needs to have sooooo much extra help? i mean even without bosh he still has a top 5 player playing with him!!!

Fnom11
05-20-2012, 03:37 AM
The Heat's supporting cast have the easiest job in the NBA but they can't even do that right :laugh2:

You have no idea how infuriating it is. These guys hit open shots their whole career and now that they get more than 2 a game they miss them all, especially Miller.

effen5
05-20-2012, 03:37 AM
Lol

KingsMadness44
05-20-2012, 03:40 AM
It's exactly what he meant. It's pretty obvious Lebron and Wade + a bunch of bad role players can't cut it. People will just blow this statement out of proportion.

Why not though? i think people are just starting to realize that maybe this wasnt going to be as easy as everyone thought and that teams aren't afraid of the fact that great players are teaming up. if anything it's added incentive to beat them

Fnom11
05-20-2012, 03:40 AM
I mean seriously. They have the best player in the nba possibly top 10 in NBA history, They have wade, top 2 nba sg. Bosh, top 3 PF.

No one ever mentions Chalmers.... he is very good. great defender, very good 3 point shooter. He is better than most PG's in the nba

they also have Battier. enough said. 3's and d

mike miller. 3's

they have hard nosed centers not the best but they are worth there price tag.

jesus christ what else they want? huh? Do they want Muhammed the prophet? Buddha? what else they fkn want.

Chalmers is a top 25 PG at best. Battier's D isn't as good as it used to be and he DOESN'T hit 3s. Miller has had maybe 2 good games this year. All of our centers have huge flaws that are easy exploited.

Not disagreeing with you, just pointing that out.

kozelkid
05-20-2012, 03:40 AM
If you guys are saying he has the talent around him to win titles then yes thats true, but Bosh isnt around so their flaws outside the Big3 are being exposed. Riley has done a horrible job building around the Big3, that is an inescapable truth. I think thats all Chuck is hinting at. You guys are acting like they need another star when nobody is saying that.

:clap:

Thank you; at least I'm not the only one who has been saying it. The so-called "godfather" has completely failed building around the big 3. If not for Wade, we wouldn't even be talking about Riley for a long time now.

The Miller signing was embarrassingly bad. We are talking about a 30 year old who was battling injuries and wasn't the same player for two years and Riley decides to throw him a 5 year 25mil contract. The Battier signing, as you mentioned, was also incredibly lackluster. An unnecessary luxury with how deep their wings are who frankly isn't much better than a Keith Bogans at this point.

JoeyBoy718
05-20-2012, 03:42 AM
I am, thats basically the entire point that Im making.

Here are the Spurs' biggest contributors. All of them were drafted by the Spurs except for 2 (3 including draft day trade). Also, in the NBA, I believe only 60 players get drafted per draft.

Duncan #1 overall, drafted by Spurs
Manu #57, by Spurs
Parker #28, by Spurs
Kawhi Leonard #15, draft day trade with Pacers
Gary Neal undrafted, signed by Spurs
Dejaun Blair #37, by Spurs
Matt Bonner #45, drafted by Bulls, joined Spurs after his 2nd season
Tiago Splitter #28, by Spurs
Danny Green #46, drafted by Cavs, joined Spurs after rookie season

What did Miami do with their draft picks? They wasted the #2 overall on Michael Beasley. Wade was the only pick they nailed on. I won't give Chalmers, Cole or Haslem credit because you're saying everyone outside of the big 3 is garbage.

You can't blame the Heat for not being as good at drafting as the Spurs. Nobody is that good. And you can't assume Korver would have wanted to join the Heat over the Bulls. If Riley is good enough to get Bron and Bosh, you should trust his decision to get Mike Miller. The Heat aren't winning because they spent most their salary cap on 3 players and they don't know how to draft. Simple as that.

Fnom11
05-20-2012, 03:44 AM
Why not though? i think people are just starting to realize that maybe this wasnt going to be as easy as everyone thought and that teams aren't afraid of the fact that great players are teaming up. if anything it's added incentive to beat them

Because 2 people can't carry a team. They literally have no threats at the 4-5 position. I don't think there was ever a team that didn't have good role players at least to win a championship.

And I'm not making excuses, it's just obvious that this team is likely to fail, especially without Bosh.

kozelkid
05-20-2012, 03:45 AM
Here are the Spurs' biggest contributors. All of them were drafted by the Spurs except for 2 (3 including draft day trade). Also, in the NBA, I believe only 60 players get drafted per draft.

Duncan #1 overall, drafted by Spurs
Manu #57, by Spurs
Parker #28, by Spurs
Kawhi Leonard #15, draft day trade with Pacers
Gary Neal undrafted, signed by Spurs
Dejaun Blair #37, by Spurs
Matt Bonner #45, drafted by Bulls, joined Spurs after his 2nd season
Tiago Splitter #28, by Spurs
Danny Green #46, drafted by Cavs, joined Spurs after rookie season

What did Miami do with their draft picks? They wasted the #2 overall on Michael Beasley. Wade was the only pick they nailed on. I won't give Chalmers, Cole or Haslem credit because you're saying everyone outside of the big 3 is garbage.

You can't blame the Heat for not being as good at drafting as the Spurs. Nobody is that good. And you can't assume Korver would have wanted to join the Heat over the Bulls. If Riley is good enough to get Bron and Bosh, you should trust his decision to get Mike Miller. The Heat aren't winning because they spent most their salary cap on 3 players and they don't know how to draft. Simple as that.

Bulls seemed to have done just fine with some of their late picks (see: Omer, Taj, Butler, Nocioni, Duhon). So have the Knicks (Shump, Wilson Chandler, Fields, David Lee).

You can and should blame the Heat for not drafting well. Moreover, you expect them to use their money wisely. Hell, getting veteran ring chaser ain't that hard. Look no further than how stacked of a bench Boston had when they formed their big 3.

And finally, Riley wasn't good enough to get Bron and Bosh; that was Wade. Do you honestly believe Bron and Bosh gave two ***** about Miami because the "godfather" was there? Wade sold them. And forgive me, it doesn't take much skill as a basketball analyst to know that Bosh and Bron can do a lot of good for your team. At most, you can credit Riley with making a good pitch, but not for making the best decisions.

KingsMadness44
05-20-2012, 03:45 AM
i am actually HOPING that you guys will sign Steve Nash and STILL not win only because i would love to hear about how Steve Nash isn't as good as he once was or how he would be to old to contribute.

Even if that were the case and the Heat did win with Nash it would almost be sad that Lebron really would need that many great players in order to get him over the hump

KB-Pau-DH2012
05-20-2012, 03:45 AM
Because 2 people can't carry a team. They literally have no threats at the 4-5 position. I don't think there was ever a team that didn't have good role players at least to win a championship.

And I'm not making excuses, it's just obvious that this team is likely to fail, especially without Bosh.

The 2004 Detroit Pistons did it with all non-superstar players.

KingsMadness44
05-20-2012, 03:48 AM
Because 2 people can't carry a team. They literally have no threats at the 4-5 position. I don't think there was ever a team that didn't have good role players at least to win a championship.

And I'm not making excuses, it's just obvious that this team is likely to fail, especially without Bosh.

Haslem is not garbage and this is my opinion but the Heat DO have good role players BUT they aren't playing up to standards. Doesnt make them terrible it just means they're better then what they are putting out there right now.

Fnom11
05-20-2012, 03:51 AM
The 2004 Detroit Pistons did it with all non-superstar players.

But their whole 1-7 best players were above average players. They had a solid team with depth at every position and players that all played defense.

Maybe at the moment has 2 great players(Wade/LBJ) 1 good player(Chalmers) and the rest are just whatever. Ontop of the fact that those three players mentioned were the PG -SF positions. Miami has no worst PF/C combo in the league at the moment(Not counting Bosh).

Which one of those teams do you think would win in a series.

JoeyBoy718
05-20-2012, 03:53 AM
Bulls seemed to have done just fine with some of their late picks (see: Omer, Taj, Butler, Nocioni, Duhon). So have the Knicks (Shump, Wilson Chandler, Fields, David Lee).

You can and should blame the Heat for not drafting well. Moreover, you expect them to use their money wisely. Hell, getting veteran ring chaser ain't that hard. Look no further than how stacked of a bench Boston had when they formed their big 3.

And finally, Riley wasn't good enough to get Bron and Bosh; that was Wade. Do you honestly believe Bron and Bosh gave two ***** about Miami because the "godfather" was there? Wade sold them. And forgive me, it doesn't take much skill as a basketball analyst to know that Bosh and Bron can do a lot of good for your team. At most, you can credit Riley with making a good pitch, but not for making the best decisions.

But LeBron chose to come here. Why should he get help? It's obvious the Heat are a horrible drafting team because the only good player they've drafted is Wade. They wasted the #2 on Beasley. Look at how well other teams have drafted, like the Spurs (which I demonstrated in my last post).

It's also obvious (according to everyone mocking the "godfather") that Riley is awful at evaluating and signing talent. You're giving all the credit to Wade for recruiting Bron and Bosh.

So these two realizations prove that the Heat is an awful franchise, who can't draft or sign good players. But still Bron decided to come to Miami, as opposed to Chicago or another team. So why should we feel any sympathy for LeBron? He deserves to lose for deciding to come to a losing franchise. And I'm only saying the Heat are a losing franchise because you guys are saying they have done an awful job at building another the big 3.

leandro1miguel
05-20-2012, 03:53 AM
lol. Barkley talking like he knows about winning championships :D

Fnom11
05-20-2012, 03:55 AM
Haslem is not garbage and this is my opinion but the Heat DO have good role players BUT they aren't playing up to standards. Doesnt make them terrible it just means they're better then what they are putting out there right now.

1. Haslem doesn't shoot well anyway by any standard, he even misses layups/inside shots including dunks and his defense isn't even a shell of what he was a few years ago. He's CLEARLY over the hill.
2. So it's Wade/LBJ's fault that the role players are under-performing? Chalmers is the only role player I can say that played consistently good in the Playoffs. Everyone single one of the others has had mostly bad games. The whole point of this thread is that the role players aren't doing well and the Heat need better.

kozelkid
05-20-2012, 04:00 AM
But LeBron chose to come here. Why should he get help? It's obvious the Heat are a horrible drafting team because the only good player they've drafted is Wade. They wasted the #2 on Beasley. Look at how well other teams have drafted, like the Spurs (which I demonstrated in my last post).

What are you trying to prove exactly? That Lebron made a mistake in his decision? Maybe. However, the point does stand that Lebron, aside from last season, hasn't had the help that almost all greats have had (aside from '94 Hakeem and '11 Dirk).


It's also obvious (according to everyone mocking the "godfather") that Riley is awful at evaluating and signing talent. You're giving all the credit to Wade for recruiting Bron and Bosh.

Yup.


So these two realizations prove that the Heat is an awful franchise, who can't draft or sign good players. But still Bron decided to come to Miami, as opposed to Chicago or another team. So why should we feel any sympathy for LeBron? He deserves to lose for deciding to come to a losing franchise. And I'm only saying the Heat are a losing franchise because you guys are saying they have done an awful job at building another the big 3.

I guess. I have no qualms with blaming Lebron in that regard. Doesn't change the fact that there was only one time that he had a strong enough roster to be able to win it. Don't get me wrong, I have no sympathy for Lebron. I don't like him. However, purely from a basketball sense, as you seem to agree, he has had a quality team around him only once. That's all we're saying. Not whether it's his fault for that or not; that's another debate.

JoeyBoy718
05-20-2012, 04:02 AM
The bottom line is, these 3 guys CHOSE to come to the Heat. Usually players don't get to choose where they go. You get drafted by a team and that's where you go. But all 3 of these guys were free agents, with the opportunity to go basically to any team that would have them (which in LeBron's case was every team in the league... believe me, they would have done whatever to make it work). And yet they chose to come to an organization that has NEVER proven that it knows how to win. And now, all of a sudden, we're supposed to expect this organization to know how to build a championship team?

P.S. I'm not a Heat fan, nor am I a hater. I just don't agree on putting all the blame on the Heat organization, when it was these 3 guys who chose to go there.

KingsMadness44
05-20-2012, 04:03 AM
1. Haslem doesn't shoot well anyway by any standard, he even misses layups/inside shots including dunks and his defense isn't even a shell of what he was a few years ago. He's CLEARLY over the hill.
2. So it's Wade/LBJ's fault that the role players are under-performing? Chalmers is the only role player I can say that played consistently good in the Playoffs. Everyone single one of the others has had mostly bad games. The whole point of this thread is that the role players aren't doing well and the Heat need better.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2007.html

That is the 2007 Cleveland Cav's......now you tell me in your opinion that the team that lebron is playing now is leaps and bounds more talented then the team that he took to the finals?

And no its not they're fault but lets make no mistake it was Wade who under performed in game 3 more then anyone else. So does that make him a bad player, absolutely not. He just didn't play up to standards.

Maybe, just maybe, the Heat aren't using there role players correctly?

JoeyBoy718
05-20-2012, 04:08 AM
What are you trying to prove exactly? That Lebron made a mistake in his decision? Maybe. However, the point does stand that Lebron, aside from last season, hasn't had the help that almost all greats have had (aside from '94 Hakeem and '11 Dirk).



Yup.



I guess. I have no qualms with blaming Lebron in that regard. Doesn't change the fact that there was only one time that he had a strong enough roster to be able to win it. Don't get me wrong, I have no sympathy for Lebron. I don't like him. However, purely from a basketball sense, as you seem to agree, he has had a quality team around him only once. That's all we're saying. Not whether it's his fault for that or not; that's another debate.

I don't disagree with you. I was originally arguing with the other guy who was making every excuse in the book. I just think that maybe LeBron is not a winner. You say he had a championship team around him only once, yet he didn't win the championship that year. Kobe, Jordan, Shaq, Duncan won every time they had a championship caliber team. The years they didn't win, they had flaws similar to this year's Heat team. Also, you say Dirk won without having a great supporting cast. Well, maybe Dirk has that winning gene that LeBron lacks.

Basically, my belief (and I may be proven wrong in time) is that LeBron is one of the most talented players ever but is not a winner. I honestly don't think he will ever win a championship unless he has an undisputedly unstoppable supporting cast around him. All teams have flaws, yet they find a way to win.

KingsMadness44
05-20-2012, 04:14 AM
I don't disagree with you. I was originally arguing with the other guy who was making every excuse in the book. I just think that maybe LeBron is not a winner. You say he had a championship team around him only once, yet he didn't win the championship that year. Kobe, Jordan, Shaq, Duncan won every time they had a championship caliber team. The years they didn't win, they had flaws similar to this year's Heat team. Also, you say Dirk won without having a great supporting cast. Well, maybe Dirk has that winning gene that LeBron lacks.

Basically, my belief (and I may be proven wrong in time) is that LeBron is one of the most talented players ever but is not a winner. I honestly don't think he will ever win a championship unless he has an undisputedly unstoppable supporting cast around him. All teams have flaws, yet they find a way to win.

could not have said it any better myself:clap:

JoeyBoy718
05-20-2012, 04:15 AM
The truth is, this team has been very good this season. Bosh's injury has had a major impact, but these guys are playing their worst basketball of the year in the playoffs. Championship players play their best ball in the playoffs. Look how well Duncan is playing now. Look at KG. This Heat team underperforms in key moments (the playoffs). That can either be the coaching staff's fault for not properly motivating them or the players' faults for not stepping up. You choose who to blame. I find it ironic that these guys never step up when they need to the most. LeBron is a choke artist until he proves otherwise.

KingsMadness44
05-20-2012, 04:23 AM
oh and Lebron COULD play PF if he really wanted to and they could play miller at the 3 or Battier....

JoeyBoy718
05-20-2012, 04:26 AM
oh and Lebron COULD play PF if he really wanted to and they could play miller at the 3 or Battier....

Didn't Magic step up and play center when KAJ went down? Maybe it wasn't his "favorite" position, but he did it because it was in the best interest of his team. Manu comes off the bench for his team. Maybe LeBron can learn a thing or two.

KB-Pau-DH2012
05-20-2012, 04:27 AM
oh and Lebron COULD play PF if he really wanted to and they could play miller at the 3 or Battier....

LeBron has already gone out to say that playing the 4 spot is physically taxing on his body.

ThunderousDemon
05-20-2012, 04:29 AM
Have some respect man!!!!

You're right, wade,bosh,and a # 1 pick for Jesus or no deal

KingsMadness44
05-20-2012, 04:33 AM
LeBron has already gone out to say that playing the 4 spot is physically taxing on his body.

And thats what the other guys point is exactly. Lebron could help his team out sooooo much if he would just move up 1 position and guard the 4 spot. Its David West! i mean he isn't who comes to mind for physical players or really much of a post up scorer to begin with.

people expect everyone to mold themselves in order to help Lebron but no one ever seems to ask "why doesn't Lebron do this to help the team"

smith&wesson
05-20-2012, 04:33 AM
:laugh2: Barkley is such a idiot. More excuses pile on for the Heats

i think he is suggesting to trade one of the big 3 for a more well rounded team which i dont think many of us can disagree with.

KB-Pau-DH2012
05-20-2012, 04:34 AM
You're right, wade,bosh,and a # 1 pick for Jesus or no deal

:laugh:

JoeyBoy718
05-20-2012, 04:36 AM
LeBron has already gone out to say that playing the 4 spot is physically taxing on his body.

Okay? I still don't see what that means. If his team has a void at PF and LeBron is their best option, shouldn't he do what's in the best interest of the team? Wade and LeBron play similar roles. Wade could step up and play the superstar role while LeBron sacrifices and fills the PF void. They have more depth at SF than they do at PF (with Bosh out). I just think a winner would sacrifice in order to win. What am I missing?

KB-Pau-DH2012
05-20-2012, 04:38 AM
Okay? I still don't see what that means. If his team has a void at PF and LeBron is their best option, shouldn't he do what's in the best interest of the team? Wade and LeBron play similar roles. Wade could step up and play the superstar role while LeBron sacrifices and fills the PF void. They have more depth at SF than they do at PF (with Bosh out). I just think a winner would sacrifice in order to win. What am I missing?

Oh no, I totally agree with you. I was just simply pointing out what he said. I think it was a recent article on ESPN about a day or two ago.

John Walls Era
05-20-2012, 04:40 AM
I never said they needed lowpost scoring, but a Center who isnt a complete non-factor would be a huge step up. And they are contenders regardless, Im just saying they did a bad job building the core around the Big3, so now that Bosh is out they are exposed.

Not many people have Bosh the credit he deserved, peoples scoffed when I said he was the most indispensable player they had outside of maybe Bron, but hey "like a bosh" was popular at the time.

I do remember that and I agreed. But what did you expect? They weren't going to believe you and look at stats unless ESPN makes articles about it (like they did as soon as the Heat lost without him).

John Walls Era
05-20-2012, 04:42 AM
You have no idea how infuriating it is. These guys hit open shots their whole career and now that they get more than 2 a game they miss them all, especially Miller.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF9OshYfu9k

They actually use to run and contest too.

meloman1592
05-20-2012, 04:52 AM
The heat have convinced chris paul to opt out and he will sign for the vet minimum. Dwight howard reportedly will also sign with them next summer for the bi annual. The heat plan to then trade james jones for kobe and eric spoelstra for melo. They will serve as key reserves

KB-Pau-DH2012
05-20-2012, 04:54 AM
The heat have convinced chris paul to opt out and he will sign for the vet minimum. Dwight howard reportedly will also sign with them next summer for the bi annual. The heat plan to then trade james jones for kobe and eric spoelstra for melo. They will serve as key reserves

Well, Kobe did basically coach the Lakers all this season, especially when he was out injured. So he could replace Spo.


Head Coach: Kobe Bryant

PG: Chris Paul
SG: Dwyane Wade
SF: LeBron James
PF: Chris Bosh
C: Dwight Howard

6th man: Carmelo Anthony

And that my friend is what you call the Kobe System.

You're Welcome. ;)

ThunderousDemon
05-20-2012, 04:57 AM
Well, Kobe did basically coach the Lakers all this season, especially when he was out injured. So he could replace Spo.


Head Coach: Kobe Bryant

PG: Chris Paul
SG: Dwyane Wade
SF: LeBron James
PF: Chris Bosh
C: Dwight Howard

6th man: Carmelo Anthony

And that my friend is what you call the Kobe System.

You're Welcome. ;)

I wonder what the critiques will say

meloman1592
05-20-2012, 05:01 AM
Well, Kobe did basically coach the Lakers all this season, especially when he was out injured. So he could replace Spo.


Head Coach: Kobe Bryant

PG: Chris Paul
SG: Dwyane Wade
SF: LeBron James
PF: Chris Bosh
C: Dwight Howard

6th man: Carmelo Anthony

And that my friend is what you call the Kobe System.

You're Welcome. ;)

lebron would somehow suck the clutchness out of cp3 and melo and that team would find a way to not win. Coach bryant would end up slapping lbj

seikou8
05-20-2012, 05:12 AM
man the heat are a mess right now

HouRealCoach
05-20-2012, 07:35 AM
They need a big man and a better coach

tcav701
05-20-2012, 07:35 AM
This is ridiculous!

What happened to most people in the free thinking world saying the Heat would dominate the league after the decision?

What about 75% of PSD and NBA analysts predicting the Heat would win the title both last year and current year?

What about Heat fans boasting they got the big 3, Haslem, Miller and Battier discounted?

What about the 7 page thread about how good of a signing Battier was?

Now these SAME people are using excuses? What type of political cop out is this?



But it doesnt matter because I saw this coming.

I told everyone they would never beat a real starting 5.

I told everyone that they were dumb for using their MLE on backups while they have holes in their starting lineup.

I told everyone that they have no offense other than run, drive and flop.

I told everyone that when the game slows down, having LeBron and Wade in a half court offense is counter productive.

But don't worry guys, when the "best team since Jordans bulls" or "the next dynasty" can't get it done, just make excuses.

Pathetic.

nycericanguy
05-20-2012, 09:30 AM
MIA has good role players, they just underperform.

Chalmers, Haslem, Turiaf, Battier, Miller, Cole, Jones.

I mean Jones & Miller were 2 of the best 3 pt shooters in the NBA. It just seems all the role players that go there under perform. Maybe its hard to get going when you have 3 guys that account for so much of their offense.

da ThRONe
05-20-2012, 09:36 AM
Well considering Bosh is out and Wade is not looking like himself I don't think it's crazy to see James needs help. Not that the Heat will, but I would most certainly look to shop Wade around. He's 30 and looking like 35 from all the years of crashing to the floor. Hopefully it's just another nagging injury, but Wade just isn't all there.

Clearly Bosh is that important. Not sure why anybody thought otherwise.

bigsams50
05-20-2012, 09:48 AM
They dont need more help. They just need Bosh to come back.

jericho
05-20-2012, 09:53 AM
Can they trade for JESUS?

Lebron
Jesus
Wade
Bosh

can they bring the x-men as well for the bench if they bring deadpool as the 12th man on the roster i might actually become a fan of the heat lol

Giraffes Rule
05-20-2012, 10:03 AM
MIA has good role players, they just underperform.

Chalmers, Haslem, Turiaf, Battier, Miller, Cole, Jones.

I mean Jones & Miller were 2 of the best 3 pt shooters in the NBA. It just seems all the role players that go there under perform. Maybe its hard to get going when you have 3 guys that account for so much of their offense.

Chalmers and Haslem are the only good players on that list. Miller has been injured and underperfroemd for most of his time with the Heat. Turiaf and Battier are not what they used to be at all. Cole has been garbage since his hot start, and Jones is a one trick pony.

Barkley is right. This team isn't well rounded and more than any other team in the league can't get over one of their stars getting injured.

Draco
05-20-2012, 10:16 AM
Lebron
Wade
Jesus
Bosh
God

Bench:

Buddha
Allah
Godzilla
The Hulk
The Invisible man
The Flash




................................... STILL LOSE :facepalm:

That's well over the cap.. Big 3 plus Holy Trinity is cheaper and you have at least one reliable spirit coming off the bench.

justinnum1
05-20-2012, 10:20 AM
actually they just need bosh to be healthy, when all your talent is in the top 3, you cant afford one to be missing, especially if the role players arent going to step up.

Jarvo
05-20-2012, 10:23 AM
They just need a solid Center and get Miller the hell out of there he is worthless to get a better shooter and chalmers needs to step up as well as haslem.

Yanks All Day
05-20-2012, 10:30 AM
Has anyone seen the way the Heat are put together? LeBron James is the only reason we're even talking about them being a championship contender. You have:

LeBron James - best player in the world who covers up even more holes because he can play 4 positions.

Dwyane Wade - superstar 2 guard who routinely gets hurt and takes games off mentally it seems. If he's checked out and Bosh isn't there, LeBron has almost nothing to work with.

Chris Bosh - a superstar stretch 4 who looks afraid to bang inside, but is deadly from mid range. One of the most underrated players in the league still. He took Hibbert out of his comfort zone because he can dribble. That advantage is gone for Miami.

Those 3 are great. Obviously the best 2-3-4 combo in basketball. But when you see the rest of their roster, you have:

Shane Battier, James Jones and Mike Miller - 3 point/defensive specialists who cant seem to hit their shots. Battier's defense is still something to rave about, but he's a liability on offense. They were brought in to do a job, and they simply can't get it done.

Joel Anthony, Udonis Haslem, Ronny Turiaf, Dexter Pitman - a sorry excuse for a front court rotation. Roy Hibbert is proving that in this series.

Norris Cole - started great, but still very raw. Definitely plenty of potential there scoring wise, but he needs to learn how to play defense and stay out of foul trouble while picking his spots to shoot.

Outside of the Big 3, only Mario Chalmers can give Miami semi-consistent production. That's not a well-rounded team. Look at the Spurs, Thunder, and Bulls (when they were healthy). Any given night, 5 or 6 guys can put up double digit nights while the stars still have good nights. All have a post presence and a scary front line. Without big men to compete with them, Miami would have almost no chance against these teams if the Big 3 had an off game. Heck, right now LeBron, Wade, and Bosh have to combine for 80 and HOPE the other guys can give them 15-20. That's not the makings of a great team. Seems like a team that's banking on all 3 players to be healthy and rolling. Only LeBron fits both of those categories all the time. I'm not saying they need to trade one of the Big 3 or blow up the team, but they are desperate for a post presence. That's really their only missing link, because LeBron covers up the lack of a great point guard. Even all of their underperforming signings made sense in theory: Guys who can hit shots and stretch the floor for the slashers. They're just not getting it done.

Jarvo
05-20-2012, 10:38 AM
Chalmers is a decent player but for you to say hes better than most PG's in the NBA sounds incredibly far fetched. What are you basing that opinion on?

Battier, 3's and D are non-existent.

Mike Miller rarely shoots and is a horrible fit alongside Wade/Bron. Korver and Wright were smarter options.

Saying Joel is worth his price tag is like saying gas is cheap. You must not remember the good ol days. Joel is trash.

Bosh is good, and so is Wade, but in case you havent noticed they have gone MIA.

Bingo! Miller has proven to be worthless so far they need to get rid of him and get a better shooter who will make the shot when call upon. Chalmers is decent at best but has a game like he does in Game 3 once in a blue moon, Battier is Battier same as Joel, Haslem needs to step it up ! He has no reason to be playing the way he does now, He been here before.

killbumdeluxe13
05-20-2012, 10:41 AM
thing is the Heat have set themselves up to make it very difficult to get any valuable help past Lebron, Wade, and Bosh. The majority of the salary cap is spent on these 3 players and they're stuck having to hope that good veterans will take the minimum to come play with them. If they want to make a well rounded team with effective role players, which you need to have to win a championship and be a dynasty (see Bulls 90's, Lakers and Spurs 00's), they'll need to trade one of the big 3 and spend the money on reliable role players. They're in the position now of having to rely solely on those 3 to do it, which is totally possible if they are all healthy but as soon as one of them goes down they're in big trouble as we've seen.

nycericanguy
05-20-2012, 10:44 AM
Chalmers and Haslem are the only good players on that list. Miller has been injured and underperfroemd for most of his time with the Heat. Turiaf and Battier are not what they used to be at all. Cole has been garbage since his hot start, and Jones is a one trick pony.

Barkley is right. This team isn't well rounded and more than any other team in the league can't get over one of their stars getting injured.

Thats my point, it seems vets go to MIA and can't perform anymore. Miller was a very good player before he got there, Jones might be a one trick pony, but every team needs that deadly 3 point shooter, he's a valuable piece, just like Eddie House, Stever Kerr, and even Novak was for ny. Biz Z & Bibby went there and fell off a cliff also.

Has there been even ONE vet that went to MIA and played well? I really think there is something to it, it would seem to be a blessing to play with LBJ and that trio, but maybe its hard for any other player to get a rhythm on that team.

nycericanguy
05-20-2012, 10:49 AM
I will say if MIA doesn't win it all this year, things are going to get verrryyy interesting.

Wade will be 31 next year and MIA is going to have to rely on Lebron more and more as Wade declines. Lebron is already complaining about playing too many minutes, and Spo basically said he will continue to play him 40mpg.

With their contracts MIA doesn't even have the full MLE anymore, and they traded away many 1st rounders for Lebron.

There isn't much MIA can do to add talent except pray and hope that vets will sign there and actually perform. I thought MIA for sure would win the title by year 2, but if they don't, I could see them not winning at all, and LBJ opting out in year 4.

Giannis94
05-20-2012, 10:53 AM
:laugh2: Barkley is such a idiot. More excuses pile on for the Heats

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azs0zjoofzE

ManRam
05-20-2012, 10:59 AM
I mean...they clearly have two big positional holes and basically no depth. It has been 3 on 5 most all season. Its been 2 on 5 all playoffs long too.

3 amazing stars...and nothing else. I figured they would have been able to do more with the MLEs and minimums...but Miller, Battier, Jones, etc are useless unless they're hitting threes...and they havent been. And then their big men after Bosh: pathetic.

Of course the team could use more.

koLohe2133
05-20-2012, 11:07 AM
Maybe Lebron is cursed?

BALLER R
05-20-2012, 11:08 AM
Why would anyone want to trade for any of miami's role players. You weren't doing anything with Lebron wade and bosh on your team. How the hell are you gonna help my team.

ManRam
05-20-2012, 11:10 AM
For sure. Their value has to be zilch. All of them...

effen5
05-20-2012, 11:15 AM
So we went from 7 championships to need more help....wow.

effen5
05-20-2012, 11:16 AM
It's funny because I called this when lebron went to Mia. I said Miami has more talent but the bulls have a much better team and everyone laughed....some dbag Mia fan had that as his sig too....whose laughin now.

BALLER R
05-20-2012, 11:17 AM
Maybe Lebron is cursed?

Must of done something horrible when he was younger. Maybe he should go to a priest and get some holy water thrown on him.

NokomisLiving
05-20-2012, 11:17 AM
Thats my point, it seems vets go to MIA and can't perform anymore. Miller was a very good player before he got there, Jones might be a one trick pony, but every team needs that deadly 3 point shooter, he's a valuable piece, just like Eddie House, Stever Kerr, and even Novak was for ny. Biz Z & Bibby went there and fell off a cliff also.

Has there been even ONE vet that went to MIA and played well? I really think there is something to it, it would seem to be a blessing to play with LBJ and that trio, but maybe its hard for any other player to get a rhythm on that team.

I disagree. He is, and has been way past his days with Memphis. That Mike Miller is long gone.

Remember when he came to Minnesota? He sucked hard, and got traded with Foye. He hasn't been this super consistent great player everyone is making him out to be here.

nycericanguy
05-20-2012, 11:20 AM
I disagree. He is, and has been way past his days with Memphis. That Mike Miller is long gone.

Remember when he came to Minnesota? He sucked hard, and got traded with Foye. He hasn't been this super consistent great player everyone is making him out to be here.

he didn't score as much in MIN, but he was still a very good all around player

10ppg 7rpg nearly 5apg, 48% fg's, 38% from 3.

That is a very good role player

Draco
05-20-2012, 11:20 AM
So we went from 7 championships to need more help....wow.

We also went from Riley's a genius to Riley didn't get the right role players.

tcav701
05-20-2012, 11:21 AM
Nobody remembers the threads at the beginning of the year about how deep Miami was?

MTL_123
05-20-2012, 11:21 AM
It's funny because I called this when lebron went to Mia. I said Miami has more talent but the bulls have a much better team and everyone laughed....some dbag Mia fan had that as his sig too....whose laughin now.

so how come miami still has a chance at winning a championship this year series is 2-1 where as the bulls are just watching from home:shrug:

ThePooH_1_
05-20-2012, 11:22 AM
"Yeah, it's going to be Hollywood down here!!" - At least they didn't lie on that one

tcav701
05-20-2012, 11:23 AM
so how come miami still has a chance at winning a championship this year series is 2-1 where as the bulls are just watching from home:shrug:

Is that a serious question?

effen5
05-20-2012, 11:38 AM
so how come miami still has a chance at winning a championship this year series is 2-1 where as the bulls are just watching from home:shrug:

Because the bulls lost last years MVP.

Let's not act like that's not a legit excuse.

If Miami lost lebron for the playoffs NYC would probably won in five games.

effen5
05-20-2012, 11:40 AM
This is why it's so mind blowing why Bron or wade didn't come to Chicago. Could have been a dynasty, instead, it's lets hope we can win against Indiana.

b@llhog24
05-20-2012, 11:45 AM
Can they trade for JESUS?

Lebron
Jesus
Wade
Bosh

Ray Allen?

Becks2307
05-20-2012, 11:59 AM
But their whole 1-7 best players were above average players. They had a solid team with depth at every position and players that all played defense.

Maybe at the moment has 2 great players(Wade/LBJ) 1 good player(Chalmers) and the rest are just whatever. Ontop of the fact that those three players mentioned were the PG -SF positions. Miami has no worst PF/C combo in the league at the moment(Not counting Bosh).

Which one of those teams do you think would win in a series.

Its not that those Detroit guys were just great role players on their own right, its that they became a team and everyone began playing better. You rank them so high because you saw them together as a group when all of their play was elevated.

Their is more than enough talent on that HEAT team to win a chip, they just don't play as a team.

Case in point, Roger Mason Jr. is not a good basketball player, Yet on the Spurs he looked amazing.

Vinylman
05-20-2012, 12:06 PM
There arent any at the C position. Well actually Shaq was available but Riley let his ego interfere. Theyve done a horrible job addressing their bench. And any halfway good center can command more than what they can offer.

Put it this way, they couldnt even afford Kwame Brown. And man would he be a huge upgrade on Joel.

wrong... they could have easily had kwame instead of mike miller ... he signed for nothing that year in CHARLOTTE

Pat Riley is the problem... he is the most overrated GM in the league...

He did nothing to put the big 3 together and obviously have surrounded them with garbage...

Shaq fell into his lap back in 2005 and what did he do... win one measely chip :facepalm:

Anyway, I am sure Spo will get blamed for their failure this year... the question is who is Pat gonna point the finger at next year when they don't get it done?

BiLINgual
05-20-2012, 12:07 PM
Trade Wade and Chalmers for Melo and Fields

Becks2307
05-20-2012, 12:09 PM
Look at the Knicks supporting cast?

Much better and they have the same amount of money. And these are the Knicks who can't do anything right.

Heat need to draft/scout better.

The Jokemaker
05-20-2012, 12:22 PM
Heat have plenty of talent to win if they actually had an offensive system they followed and had heard of something called a team. To win the Finals you have to play as a team and know how to get those on your team that are less talented involved and In a position that maximizes their talent. It's not like their playing with a bunch of middle schoolers. These are players that ultimately made it into the NBA so they do have some kind of talent. The stars plain and simple need to do a better job of actually involving their teammates and playing as a team. However this concept seems lost to them so just have to see what happens.

effen5
05-20-2012, 12:23 PM
Look at the Knicks supporting cast?

Much better and they have the same amount of money. And these are the Knicks who can't do anything right.

Heat need to draft/scout better.

Lol!

JoeyBoy718
05-20-2012, 12:24 PM
I don't get how Rose goes down and the Bulls get destroyed by a Sixers team who isn't nearly as good as this Pacers team. Yet people give the Bulls credit for having a great team built around Rose. Why are people not coming to Rose's defense but they come to LeBron's defense when his team shows flaws?

My point is, Rose is undoubtedly a superstar but people give less credit to Rose as an individual and more credit to the players around him. But his injury shows how bad the players around him are. Nobody makes excuses for any of the superstars except LeBron.

TheNumber37
05-20-2012, 12:28 PM
... Maybe Wade needs help.

JoeyBoy718
05-20-2012, 12:34 PM
Nobody on OKC ever really steps up outside of Durant/Westbrook/Harden. Sure Ibaka gets boards and blocks but he doesn't take over games when one of their big 3 is out. Yet nobody talks about how Durant needs more help around him. Duncan is surrounded by a bunch of 2nd year guys who were undrafted or drafted late in the second round. A year ago, looking at that roster, you would have said the Spurs are doomed. Why should Bron get a team with all the right pieces when no team in the NBA has all the right pieces? First he needed another star--he got 2--and now he needs a supporting cast... If the supporting cast doesn't work then he'll need a coaching staff.

Rain City
05-20-2012, 12:38 PM
i think the help needs to play better.

Becks2307
05-20-2012, 12:42 PM
Nobody on OKC ever really steps up outside of Durant/Westbrook/Harden. Sure Ibaka gets boards and blocks but he doesn't take over games when one of their big 3 is out. Yet nobody talks about how Durant needs more help around him. Duncan is surrounded by a bunch of 2nd year guys who were undrafted or drafted late in the second round. A year ago, looking at that roster, you would have said the Spurs are doomed. Why should Bron get a team with all the right pieces when no team in the NBA has all the right pieces? First he needed another star--he got 2--and now he needs a supporting cast... If the supporting cast doesn't work then he'll need a coaching staff.

this.

Frantico
05-20-2012, 12:46 PM
It's not the supporting cast that is the biggest problem - it's the fact tht LBJ and Wade can't play together... their games are just too similar. They both need the ball in their hands, they both put their head down and storm to the basket, and they both lack deadly outside shooting...

The supporting cast is fine (Bosh is out!), what team wouldn't be better with a true defensive C and spot up three point shooters?

The only solution... break up the big three... trade Wade while you still can... get yourself an elite C or a great PG who can spot up...

The Spurs big 3 and the Celtics big 3 work so well because they are all 3 very different players! 3 very different positions with 3 very different set of skills!

LBJ and Wade cancel each other out. Too much standing around (from all the Heat players) when one of those two holds the ball - which is most of the time...

nycericanguy
05-20-2012, 12:47 PM
Nobody on OKC ever really steps up outside of Durant/Westbrook/Harden. Sure Ibaka gets boards and blocks but he doesn't take over games when one of their big 3 is out. Yet nobody talks about how Durant needs more help around him. Duncan is surrounded by a bunch of 2nd year guys who were undrafted or drafted late in the second round. A year ago, looking at that roster, you would have said the Spurs are doomed. Why should Bron get a team with all the right pieces when no team in the NBA has all the right pieces? First he needed another star--he got 2--and now he needs a supporting cast... If the supporting cast doesn't work then he'll need a coaching staff.

true. If you look at some of OKC's box scores there are many games where no one else even scored in double figures.

In fact OKC didn't have anyone outside of their big 3 that averaged double figures.

MIA - 4th leading scorer - Chalmers 9.8ppg
OKC - 4th leading scorer - Ibaka 9.1ppg

LJEATON26
05-20-2012, 12:48 PM
How many more years are we going to have to hear this excuse. We heard it every year he was in Cleveland and now in Miami. Lebron gets his no matter what but the people around him don't get better for some reason.

knicks4life33
05-20-2012, 12:52 PM
yea he needs more help as d wade who is a superstar and is a top 5 player in the league is his teammate then has chris bosh at power foward who is top 10 at his position lol and the rest of the fillers just have to make open shots like mike miller who and batter who been doin it in the past and have chalmers and the great ones make there teammates better and Lebron took his cavs to the finals with a worse supporting cast then the supporting cast that the heat has now! NO excuses.

strahan92osi72
05-20-2012, 01:15 PM
:facepalm::speechless:Yea sure, offer Howard and D-Will the vet min this summer. Then trade Battier for Durant and Haslem for Love, that way Durant and Love can be instant offense off the bench.

k.smith904
05-20-2012, 01:48 PM
:facepalm::speechless:Yea sure, offer Howard and D-Will the vet min this summer. Then trade Battier for Durant and Haslem for Love, that way Durant and Love can be instant offense off the bench.

yeah but they need Phil to coach, too.

strahan92osi72
05-20-2012, 01:51 PM
yeah but they need Phil to coach, too.

Yup, and then hire Jerry West to be the GM and Mark Cuban can buy the team.

NoahH
05-20-2012, 01:52 PM
I think he meant a more rounded team. So trade 1 of Wade or Bosh for a better overall team.

Yup. They have three top 25 players, yes. And then nothing....

tcav701
05-20-2012, 01:55 PM
Yup. They have three top 25 players, yes. And then nothing....

Yes but even an idiot would realize that SIGNING 3 top 25 players prevents them from getting anything else.

THE GIPPER
05-20-2012, 02:05 PM
Lebron has enough help if Bosh is healthy and Dwyane Wade plays like Dwyane Wade. Right now neither of those things are happening so yes, he needs more help.

JoeyBoy718
05-20-2012, 02:07 PM
Yes but even an idiot would realize that SIGNING 3 top 25 players prevents them from getting anything else.

DING DING DING. We have a winner!!! If you sign 3 guys at 30% of the salary cap each, that leaves 10% of the cap to build the rest of the team. It's all about making the math work. The Heat chose to go with the big 3 equation--now all of a sudden things aren't adding up.

Chronz
05-20-2012, 02:07 PM
the point i am trying to make is he has done more with a lot less talent! So why is it that people think that Lebron needs to have sooooo much extra help? i mean even without bosh he still has a top 5 player playing with him!!!
I disagree, without Bosh and with Wade playing at his current level, this isnt any better than some of those Cleveland teams.

Chronz
05-20-2012, 02:08 PM
You have no idea how infuriating it is. These guys hit open shots their whole career and now that they get more than 2 a game they miss them all, especially Miller.

Mike doesnt mesh with Bron/Wade, he needs to lead the 2nd unit and control the offense. His efficiency is better that way.

AMushroomStamp
05-20-2012, 02:12 PM
:laugh2: Barkley is such a idiot. More excuses pile on for the Heats

you dont even realise that there are about 3-4 teams in the NBA whose name doesnt end with an "S" (magic, thunder and heat), and barkely is the idiot? :facepalm:

mdm692
05-20-2012, 02:21 PM
They might need the avngers for this one.

Chronz
05-20-2012, 02:22 PM
Here are the Spurs' biggest contributors. All of them were drafted by the Spurs except for 2 (3 including draft day trade). Also, in the NBA, I believe only 60 players get drafted per draft.

Duncan #1 overall, drafted by Spurs
Manu #57, by Spurs
Parker #28, by Spurs
Kawhi Leonard #15, draft day trade with Pacers
Gary Neal undrafted, signed by Spurs
Dejaun Blair #37, by Spurs
Matt Bonner #45, drafted by Bulls, joined Spurs after his 2nd season
Tiago Splitter #28, by Spurs
Danny Green #46, drafted by Cavs, joined Spurs after rookie season

What did Miami do with their draft picks? They wasted the #2 overall on Michael Beasley. Wade was the only pick they nailed on. I won't give Chalmers, Cole or Haslem credit because you're saying everyone outside of the big 3 is garbage.
Chalmers is a decent part of that core, dont know how I feel about Beasley yet, its the moves they have done with the assets they have thats truly pitiful.


You can't blame the Heat for not being as good at drafting as the Spurs. Nobody is that good.
LOL sure they are, Daryl Morey is the MASTER at finding diamonds in the rough, hes continuously drafted late and been able to find key contributors even with 2nd round picks, often times having so much confidence in his draft abilities that he would spend money just to land 2nd rounders on draft day. The Spurs were one example, if your basing your argument around the notion that nobody is like them then your sadly mistaken.


And you can't assume Korver would have wanted to join the Heat over the Bulls. If Riley is good enough to get Bron and Bosh, you should trust his decision to get Mike Miller.
That is counter intuitive tho, you think it takes any sort of eye for talent to target the MVP and have Wade help recruit Bosh? LOL Im more impressed by the moves that require exhaustive analysis and various scouting techniques. Riley has been lacking in this area. And you keep mentioning Korver but he was actually 1 of 2 options I mentioned, he most definitely could have kept Wright, he CHOSE not to. And you have no proof that Korver wouldnt come so its a baseless statement. I didnt hear any rumors about him targeting Korver like I heard for Miller. And none of this changes what an awful signing Miller was. His reputation for ball dominance and reluctant shooting was growing every year, ask Minny fans how unnerving it was to see him pass down open shots so he could initiate on his own. There were several articles harping on trouble of trading for a shooter and him being unwilling to shoot.


The Heat aren't winning because they spent most their salary cap on 3 players and they don't know how to draft. Simple as that.

Well your half right, its because they have made horrible decisions with the assets they had available to them, this includes who they targeted in both Free Agency and the draft. Their inability to acquire assets has rendered them non-players in the trade market so its especially damning.

AMushroomStamp
05-20-2012, 02:27 PM
how much help can this "mvp" possibly need? i dont get it. maybe he just isnt destined to win a championship?

DaLyingofJungl3
05-20-2012, 02:33 PM
look @ the amount of help Kobe has had over the years compared to Miami.

-Shaq
-Gasol
-Bynum
-Artest
-Odom
-Robert Horry
-Fisher

Miami besides the Big 3 is nothing

Chronz
05-20-2012, 02:33 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2007.html

That is the 2007 Cleveland Cav's......now you tell me in your opinion that the team that lebron is playing now is leaps and bounds more talented then the team that he took to the finals?

And no its not they're fault but lets make no mistake it was Wade who under performed in game 3 more then anyone else. So does that make him a bad player, absolutely not. He just didn't play up to standards.

Maybe, just maybe, the Heat aren't using there role players correctly?
Consider that Bron wasnt an elite defender then, and his team was elite defensively. Thats already more than what I can say for this Heat team without Bosh-Bron. And then consider that the 2007 Cavs got a bye in their first 2 playoff matches and it took Bron and Boobie going nuts in the final 2 games to close them out. If thats what it takes for Bron to win now, then thats not my idea of a stacked team. Bron left Cleveland because he didnt want the burden of scoring 25PTS in a row to win a game over a superior team. He wanted legitimate help. Without Bosh and Wade playing how he has been these playoffs, that help doesnt exists.

As for the role players, Battier has been used in his current role the majority of his career. Sometimes people just decline. I do think they arent using Miller properly, nor Haslem and James Jones, Mike needs to lead the 2nd unit or spend most of his time with only 1 superstar, not both. Haslem needs to play strictly with Wade.

Sadly the Heat cant tinker with the lineups right now, they just lost the most integral player to their spacing, they are forced into playing players at different spots.

Chronz
05-20-2012, 02:36 PM
I don't disagree with you. I was originally arguing with the other guy who was making every excuse in the book. I just think that maybe LeBron is not a winner. You say he had a championship team around him only once, yet he didn't win the championship that year. Kobe, Jordan, Shaq, Duncan won every time they had a championship caliber team. The years they didn't win, they had flaws similar to this year's Heat team. Also, you say Dirk won without having a great supporting cast. Well, maybe Dirk has that winning gene that LeBron lacks.

Basically, my belief (and I may be proven wrong in time) is that LeBron is one of the most talented players ever but is not a winner. I honestly don't think he will ever win a championship unless he has an undisputedly unstoppable supporting cast around him. All teams have flaws, yet they find a way to win.
Based on what?

Chronz
05-20-2012, 02:38 PM
could not have said it any better myself:clap:
Think about what he just said, if all teams have flaws and they all find ways to win, how is there only 1 champion left standing? LOL thats just cliche talk for, "I dont care about extenuating circumstances, he should win".

The truth is, the team with the least flaws wins.

Chronz
05-20-2012, 02:39 PM
Didn't Magic step up and play center when KAJ went down? Maybe it wasn't his "favorite" position, but he did it because it was in the best interest of his team. Manu comes off the bench for his team. Maybe LeBron can learn a thing or two.

He also cost his superior team several playoff series with his erratic and selfish play. Whats your point?

Chronz
05-20-2012, 02:41 PM
And thats what the other guys point is exactly. Lebron could help his team out sooooo much if he would just move up 1 position and guard the 4 spot. Its David West! i mean he isn't who comes to mind for physical players or really much of a post up scorer to begin with.

people expect everyone to mold themselves in order to help Lebron but no one ever seems to ask "why doesn't Lebron do this to help the team"

LMFAO, have you not been watching the series? Thats exactly what hes done, hes played heavy minutes and has been asked to cover both perimeter and interior spots while still carrying the offense on the other end.

That is severely taxing since no other player carries that kind of 2 way responsibility so effectively. Your insane if you think battling on the blocks on top of all that isnt tiring. If you watch the games you can see West and him pushing each other, even if he doesnt get the ball, its taxing to do battle down there while still anchoring your teams defense, on top of all the minutes he has to play.

Chronz
05-20-2012, 02:42 PM
Okay? I still don't see what that means. If his team has a void at PF and LeBron is their best option, shouldn't he do what's in the best interest of the team? Wade and LeBron play similar roles. Wade could step up and play the superstar role while LeBron sacrifices and fills the PF void. They have more depth at SF than they do at PF (with Bosh out). I just think a winner would sacrifice in order to win. What am I missing?

They tried, Wade was unable to rise to the occasion. Heres hoping he wakes up.

mdm692
05-20-2012, 02:44 PM
look @ the amount of help Kobe has had over the years compared to Miami.

-Shaq
-Gasol
-Bynum
-Artest
-Odom
-Robert Horry
-Fisher

Miami besides the Big 3 is nothing

I dont know what youre trying to say so ill go the negative route.

You cant blame kobe for having a good FO and an owner who is willing to spend. They knew what kobes strengths and weaknesses were and even when they were miserable they tried to adress those needs so you really cant blame kobe for having a smart enough front office.

Chronz
05-20-2012, 02:48 PM
This is ridiculous!

What happened to most people in the free thinking world saying the Heat would dominate the league after the decision?

What about 75% of PSD and NBA analysts predicting the Heat would win the title both last year and current year?

What about Heat fans boasting they got the big 3, Haslem, Miller and Battier discounted?

What about the 7 page thread about how good of a signing Battier was?

Now these SAME people are using excuses? What type of political cop out is this?



But it doesnt matter because I saw this coming.

I told everyone they would never beat a real starting 5.

I told everyone that they were dumb for using their MLE on backups while they have holes in their starting lineup.

I told everyone that they have no offense other than run, drive and flop.

I told everyone that when the game slows down, having LeBron and Wade in a half court offense is counter productive.

But don't worry guys, when the "best team since Jordans bulls" or "the next dynasty" can't get it done, just make excuses.

Pathetic.
Your acting as if Bosh is currently healthy. Im the biggest detractor of the role players but lets not act like the Heat arent contending right now if Bosh was healthy. Well actually, with the way Wade has played maybe having Bosh wouldnt have made that much of a difference. I think Miami holds HCA with Bosh but I had a feeling Indy would be an all-out war. Sad the Heat lack the guns to fight.

LA_Raiders
05-20-2012, 02:48 PM
lol. Get DWill & Howard for the Queen. He might be able to win now.

DWill
Wade
LeBroom (MVP Queen)
Bosh
Howard

tcav701
05-20-2012, 02:49 PM
look @ the amount of help Kobe has had over the years compared to Miami.

-Shaq
-Gasol
-Bynum
-Artest
-Odom
-Robert Horry
-Fisher

Miami besides the Big 3 is nothing

All of those players other than Fisher and Horry, I think, were drafted or acquired in a trade.

And the Lakers had to give up Shaq to get Odom and other pieces.

Chronz
05-20-2012, 02:50 PM
thing is the Heat have set themselves up to make it very difficult to get any valuable help past Lebron, Wade, and Bosh. The majority of the salary cap is spent on these 3 players and they're stuck having to hope that good veterans will take the minimum to come play with them. If they want to make a well rounded team with effective role players, which you need to have to win a championship and be a dynasty (see Bulls 90's, Lakers and Spurs 00's), they'll need to trade one of the big 3 and spend the money on reliable role players. They're in the position now of having to rely solely on those 3 to do it, which is totally possible if they are all healthy but as soon as one of them goes down they're in big trouble as we've seen.

I dont think its "very difficult" I just think theyve made the wrong moves with regards to their targets in FA and the Draft. Which has hurt their ability to make trades. Blaming 3 stars who took less to join up is lazy, other teams have been over the cap and have been able to build a better bench than this. I doubt it makes a huge difference but the Heat are thinner than they should be.

Chronz
05-20-2012, 02:52 PM
Thats my point, it seems vets go to MIA and can't perform anymore. Miller was a very good player before he got there,
I stopped reading here, you obviously werent watching or studying Millers game before he got there. But yes, hes a horrible fit with Bron/Wade, Riley should have known this.

JoeyBoy718
05-20-2012, 02:55 PM
LeBron had good role players in Cleveland. He didn't single-handedly lead them to the best record in the league every season. The issue in Cleveland was that he didn't have any other stars with him. He sacrificed the solid team and role players in Cleveland to play with two stars in Miami. You can't have it both ways. He knew what he was getting into when he came to Miami. Miami had nobody after the did the sign-and-trades to get Bron and Bosh. I think the only other guy on the roster was Chalmers. Wade (the genius who recruited Bron and Bosh) took an extra discount so they could sign Haslem. They used their MLE to get Miller (which you can say was a bad move). Then they basically spent the minimum to fill the roster with vets, resigned a few young guys they had on their team, drafted Cole who is solid pick considering he was a late first rounder, then landed Battier this offseason. They really didn't have much to work with. The big 3 knew that acquiring them would leave the team extremely depleted yet they still did it.

KB-Pau-DH2012
05-20-2012, 02:56 PM
We also went from Riley's a genius to Riley didn't get the right role players.

What happened to the slogan.....Yes.We.Did. ???? :laugh2:

JordansBulls
05-20-2012, 02:58 PM
Well remember in 2006 in FIBA with Wade, Melo, Dwight, Bosh, Joe Johnson they won bronze medal as well.

JoeyBoy718
05-20-2012, 03:00 PM
Your acting as if Bosh is currently healthy. Im the biggest detractor of the role players but lets not act like the Heat arent contending right now if Bosh was healthy. Well actually, with the way Wade has played maybe having Bosh wouldnt have made that much of a difference. I think Miami holds HCA with Bosh but I had a feeling Indy would be an all-out war. Sad the Heat lack the guns to fight.

Sad they lack the guns to fight? They lose their #3 option for a few games. What about the teams who lost their stars for the season? Bulls probably had a shot to win it all before Rose was lost. The Magic were the #3 team in the East before Dwight went down. Hell, even the T'Wolves were on the verge of making the playoffs before Rubio got injured. Injuries happen. If the Bulls don't get an asterisk this season, neither do the Heat.

JoeyBoy718
05-20-2012, 03:09 PM
I stopped reading here, you obviously werent watching or studying Millers game before he got there. But yes, hes a horrible fit with Bron/Wade, Riley should have known this.

You're nitpicking. You're making every excuse in the book. I'm not discrediting what you're saying, but no team is gonna be perfect. He came to Miami to play with superstars, leaving them with very little funds to build around them. We all knew this would happen. Sure, they could have done a better job building around them but 1) it's only their second season, and not too long ago the big 3 and Chalmers were the only players on the roster, 2) Do you really think the Heat's ability to draft late-1st and 2nd round players would have put them over the hump? (the past 2 years, since any good draft choice prior to acquiring the big 3 would most likely have been too expensive to resign).

We all knew the Heat would have a difficult time building around the big 3 with minimum contracts and late-round draft picks to offer. But we also thought that LeBron was so great and legendary of a player that he would be able to make it work as long as he had Wade and Bosh to assist him.

Chronz
05-20-2012, 03:11 PM
Its not that those Detroit guys were just great role players on their own right, its that they became a team and everyone began playing better. You rank them so high because you saw them together as a group when all of their play was elevated.

Their is more than enough talent on that HEAT team to win a chip, they just don't play as a team.

Case in point, Roger Mason Jr. is not a good basketball player, Yet on the Spurs he looked amazing.

LOL Detroit was stacked, what are you talking about?

PleaseBeNice
05-20-2012, 03:11 PM
Lebron
Wade
Jesus
Bosh
God

Bench:

Buddha
Allah
Godzilla
The Hulk
The Invisible man
The Flash




................................... STILL LOSE :facepalm:

This thread is for meaningful discussion and you are not adding to it by posting this nonsense that holds no merit on a topic such as this. If you are going to continue to post subject matter like this, please leave this site and head over to 4chan. Thank you.

Chronz
05-20-2012, 03:12 PM
wrong... they could have easily had kwame instead of mike miller ... he signed for nothing that year in CHARLOTTE
I was referring to this year when he signed for 7M.



Pat Riley is the problem... he is the most overrated GM in the league...

He did nothing to put the big 3 together and obviously have surrounded them with garbage...

Shaq fell into his lap back in 2005 and what did he do... win one measely chip :facepalm:

Anyway, I am sure Spo will get blamed for their failure this year... the question is who is Pat gonna point the finger at next year when they don't get it done?
Hes decent when he has trade chips to play with, but he overvalues hustle players IMO.

AIRMAR72
05-20-2012, 03:13 PM
the RESULT will be the same with bosh in the line up bron or wade have 0 post-up game NO true PG WEAK bench.. pacer are a TEAM featuring a true bigman they can play halfcourt D and offense furthermore bron and wade are not scottie N MIKE

kozelkid
05-20-2012, 03:17 PM
Based on what?

No kidding. Moreover, just because Lebron has a "championship" cast around him, that doesn't necessarily mean he is on the best team. Like I've been saying, only last season he has had the best cast and SHOULD have won, but didn't.

Certainly not this year, and even if they were 100% healthy, you can definitely make a strong case for OKC and SA having a stronger team.

Besides, even greats like Duncan, Kobe and Shaq didn't always win even with the best teams. The difference is that they were given enough chances to win with strong casts and so you seem the number of rings they accumulated. Same cannot be said for Lebron. Essentially, that was his hope by joining up with Wade and Bosh. Hasn't exactly worked thus far. But he has only had one chance. And I have no issues with blaming him for sucking hard in the finals, but that's one year. We can point to all the times Kobe has sucked hard in the finals just as well. Difference is that Kobe has had the cast to get him 7 times, while Lebron only twice (and the first time he was a HUGE underdog).

Chronz
05-20-2012, 03:18 PM
Nobody on OKC ever really steps up outside of Durant/Westbrook/Harden. Sure Ibaka gets boards and blocks but he doesn't take over games when one of their big 3 is out.
LOL thats the point, Ibaka is able to make a profound impact without ever touching the ball. Hes the best shot blocker in the game and an outlet option on the PnR/Iso game. Thats PERFECT. They have Perkins and Collison who are monsters in the intangible department. And Harden is able to play with or without Westbrook/Durant.



Yet nobody talks about how Durant needs more help around him.
Why would they need to, his team is stacked, very little weaknesses. The players who cant score on their team are elite defenders (Thabo/Perk/Ibaka), whereas the Heat trot out guys who cant even participate.


Duncan is surrounded by a bunch of 2nd year guys who were undrafted or drafted late in the second round. A year ago, looking at that roster, you would have said the Spurs are doomed.
Not me.


Why should Bron get a team with all the right pieces when no team in the NBA has all the right pieces? First he needed another star--he got 2--and now he needs a supporting cast... If the supporting cast doesn't work then he'll need a coaching staff.

Nobody is saying all the right pieces but they cant trot out complete non-factors

Chronz
05-20-2012, 03:18 PM
this is false.

Fixed

JoeyBoy718
05-20-2012, 03:19 PM
We all knew this was going to happen. Why are we now shocked that what we knew was gonna happen has happened?

Go back 2 offseasons ago. The Bulls had a solid team around them, and could have probably acquired LeBron without losing anybody but maybe Deng. The Cavs could have resigned LeBron but we don't know if they could have done much more than they did in the 7 seasons prior. And lastly, the Heat had just signed Chris Bosh. The Heat could have resigned some key players and went out and built a solid team around Wade and Bosh but they chose to put all their eggs in the basket of Wade/Bosh/Bron. And Bron could have chosen to go to a team like the Bulls who many people were saying were a much more complete team, but he chose to go to a Heat team with only Bosh/Wade/Chalmers on the roster and nothing but an MLE and minimum contracts to build around after signing Bron. He made his choice. Everyone was predicting this is what was probably going to happen, and, for the most part, they were right. It wasn't a bad decision, since they made the Finals last year, but we knew they would have issues. Why is this so shocking? This is what happens when you build a "super team." Maybe that's why nobody does it...

Chronz
05-20-2012, 03:22 PM
Sad they lack the guns to fight? They lose their #3 option for a few games.
The problem with your logic is your relying on outdated terminology to depict a players worth, hes not just a #3 option. Not every 3rd option is created equally. You can be a 1st option who doesnt make the impact of a 3rd option player.


What about the teams who lost their stars for the season? Bulls probably had a shot to win it all before Rose was lost. The Magic were the #3 team in the East before Dwight went down. Hell, even the T'Wolves were on the verge of making the playoffs before Rubio got injured. Injuries happen. If the Bulls don't get an asterisk this season, neither do the Heat.

Your making it seem like I dont feel sorry for those teams either, I had Bulls as my Finals pick before the playoffs started, tho I wanted to see how the playoffs unfolded first. Not sure what you mean by asterisk.

Hustla23
05-20-2012, 03:24 PM
Who doesn't need more help?

PAOboston
05-20-2012, 03:27 PM
trade dwade to the lakers and try to get bynum or pao. go after ray allen in free agency to play the 2 guard spot.

chalmers-allen-lebron-bosh-bynum/gasol

mdm692
05-20-2012, 03:28 PM
Bron doesnt need more help nash needs more help.

Chronz
05-20-2012, 03:29 PM
You're nitpicking. You're making every excuse in the book. I'm not discrediting what you're saying, but no team is gonna be perfect.
Irrelevant, I never expected perfection.


He came to Miami to play with superstars, leaving them with very little funds to build around them. We all knew this would happen. Sure, they could have done a better job building around them but 1) it's only their second season, and not too long ago the big 3 and Chalmers were the only players on the roster, 2) Do you really think the Heat's ability to draft late-1st and 2nd round players would have put them over the hump? (the past 2 years, since any good draft choice prior to acquiring the big 3 would most likely have been too expensive to resign).
Without Bosh they arent legit contenders period, your clearly missing the point. Without Bosh this team isnt mega talented but to be playing as bad as they have could have been prevented with smarter scouting. Thats all Im saying. And for people to act like having Wade (especially this version of Wade) is a remedy that is all Bron should require to win is really dumb.


We all knew the Heat would have a difficult time building around the big 3 with minimum contracts and late-round draft picks to offer. But we also thought that LeBron was so great and legendary of a player that he would be able to make it work as long as he had Wade and Bosh to assist him.

Tell that to the fans you spoke about earlier who were drinking the cool aid. Mike Miller was OBVIOUSLY a horrible decision. The Joel extension was completely idiotic.

JoeyBoy718
05-20-2012, 03:32 PM
I don't see why Bron "deserves" help more than every other player. KG went his whole career with no help before joining the Celtics past his prime. Duncan was lucky, but usually when a team drafts a player with one of the top overall picks it's because that team was completely awful. It takes a long time to build a good team around a #1 draft pick. Didn't it take the Bulls about 7 years before they finally built a championship caliber team around Jordan? The Cavs were doing their best. They could have done much better but they did do many good things to build around LeBron. I'll say it once again, LeBron chose to leave a team that had spent 7 years building around him to join up with 2 superstars. You can't build a great supporting cast overnight. We knew it would take a few years to build a great supporting cast around the big 3. So why is everyone so mad that the supporting cast isn't great yet? Also, in signing the big 3, they now have far less resources build that supporting cast (minimum cap space, late draft picks for always being a top 5 team).

Chronz
05-20-2012, 03:33 PM
true. If you look at some of OKC's box scores there are many games where no one else even scored in double figures.

In fact OKC didn't have anyone outside of their big 3 that averaged double figures.

MIA - 4th leading scorer - Chalmers 9.8ppg
OKC - 4th leading scorer - Ibaka 9.1ppg

Not sure if your being serious.

Chronz
05-20-2012, 03:34 PM
DING DING DING. We have a winner!!! If you sign 3 guys at 30% of the salary cap each, that leaves 10% of the cap to build the rest of the team. It's all about making the math work. The Heat chose to go with the big 3 equation--now all of a sudden things aren't adding up.

Yes but even an idiot would realize that SIGNING 3 top 25 players prevents them from getting anything else.

False, being over the cap hasnt prevented teams from building a better bench before.

JoeyBoy718
05-20-2012, 03:39 PM
Irrelevant, I never expected perfection.


Without Bosh they arent legit contenders period, your clearly missing the point. Without Bosh this team isnt mega talented but to be playing as bad as they have could have been prevented with smarter scouting. Thats all Im saying. And for people to act like having Wade (especially this version of Wade) is a remedy that is all Bron should require to win is really dumb.


Tell that to the fans you spoke about earlier who were drinking the cool aid. Mike Miller was OBVIOUSLY a horrible decision. The Joel extension was completely idiotic.

I'm definitely not disagreeing with you. You're making excellent points. I agree the Bosh loss was HUGE. I knew it the second it happened. I'm an NBA fan but not a fan of a particular team. I do live in Miami so I've been listening to everyone hate on Bosh for 2 years now. I've been trying to tell people how important Bosh was. We both agree the Bosh loss is huge and that the Heat haven't done a good job building a supporting cast. But I'm just saying that they basically knew that building a superteam would make it very difficult to build a supporting cast. It's basically going to be year after year trying to build a supporting cast with minimum contracts and hoping that some of their 2nd round picks turn into stars. I really think it's all on the big 3 and it always will be.

Chronz
05-20-2012, 03:40 PM
I don't see why Bron "deserves" help more than every other player. KG went his whole career with no help before joining the Celtics past his prime.
A move he would regret, if it were up to him he would have forced his way out sooner. And what a player deserves is relative, other players force their way to great situations and win, whos to say Bron doesnt deserve the same?

My point is that what they deserve is irrelevant, the facts are the Heat without Bosh and Wade struggling isnt title support in the sense that they need both those guys to play superhuman. With Bosh the equation changes completely, they are the most top heavy team in the league, therefore their lack of depth hurts them more than most teams.

I dont care about what they deserve in terms of roster support, only the truth of their support. People acting like he has enough without Bosh are crazy. Yes he could technically win with this team, technically an 8th seed could make the Finals as it did in our last lockout. But you need to weigh the odds.



Duncan was lucky, but usually when a team drafts a player with one of the top overall picks it's because that team was completely awful. It takes a long time to build a good team around a #1 draft pick. Didn't it take the Bulls about 7 years before they finally built a championship caliber team around Jordan? The Cavs were doing their best. They could have done much better but they did do many good things to build around LeBron. I'll say it once again, LeBron chose to leave a team that had spent 7 years building around him to join up with 2 superstars. You can't build a great supporting cast overnight. We knew it would take a few years to build a great supporting cast around the big 3. So why is everyone so mad that the supporting cast isn't great yet? Also, in signing the big 3, they now have far less resources build that supporting cast (minimum cap space, late draft picks for always being a top 5 team).
Because they have hindered their prospects for the future with those bad moves. The Cavs did there best but they had the misfortune of playing in Cleveland and made some questionable moves along the way.

kozelkid
05-20-2012, 03:41 PM
Why do people ignore the fact that Boston managed to build an elite bench around their big 3 in 07, who actually took up more of the cap space if I recall correctly. You don't see Miami having key role players like a Rondo, Perkins, Powe, PJ Brown, Posey.

PurpleJesus
05-20-2012, 03:41 PM
Charles is kind of right. We are seeing what happens right now if they lose Wade or Bosh.

Chronz
05-20-2012, 03:44 PM
I'm definitely not disagreeing with you. You're making excellent points. I agree the Bosh loss was HUGE. I knew it the second it happened. I'm an NBA fan but not a fan of a particular team. I do live in Miami so I've been listening to everyone hate on Bosh for 2 years now. I've been trying to tell people how important Bosh was. We both agree the Bosh loss is huge and that the Heat haven't done a good job building a supporting cast. But I'm just saying that they basically knew that building a superteam would make it very difficult to build a supporting cast. It's basically going to be year after year trying to build a supporting cast with minimum contracts and hoping that some of their 2nd round picks turn into stars. I really think it's all on the big 3 and it always will be.
If Bosh was healthy I wouldnt be posting, but I also doubt Chuck would be saying Bron needs some help.

The Heat will be forced to rely on projects for sure, but they have already crippled their window for that support by splurging on Joel and Miller. Udonis is only bad in retrospect, I cant fault them for that move.

JasonJohnHorn
05-20-2012, 03:46 PM
Championships are won with bigmen.

Yes. Jordan needed Luc Longley in the paint. Without him the Bulls would have never won.


Seriously...whatever LBJ has been surrounded with, hasn't been enough. He had Big-Z, Shaq and Anderson-V in the paint, with Jamison at PF and he didn't win. Then he needed a 'shooting guard'. Now he has a shooting guard and he needs a center. For real?

James made his own bed. He can lay in it. Wade is better than Pippen, so James has a better wing-man than Jordan had, and while Bosh isn't quite the rebounded Rodman was, he is a huge step up from Horace Grant and gives more on offence than Rodman ever did.

Jordan got it done with a league that actually HAD qaulity bigs (Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem, Shaq, ect..), the least LBJ can do is get it done against Hibbert. I mean... this is Hibbert we are talking about here, not Hakeem... not Ewing... not Shaq...

I have no sympathy for LBJ. Whatever situation he is in, he needs more help. It's got to tell you something about this guy. Is he a stat stuffer? Yes. Is he a winner? Not yet.

JoeyBoy718
05-20-2012, 03:48 PM
Why do people ignore the fact that Boston managed to build an elite bench around their big 3 in 07, who actually took up more of the cap space if I recall correctly. You don't see Miami having key role players like a Rondo, Perkins, Powe, PJ Brown, Posey.

Well they difference was the Celtics had some hidden gems on their team. No one knew how good Rondo and Perkins were going to be. If they did they would have made more of an effort to try to pry those guys from the Celtics. The Heat did not have any young potential on their team. They had nobody on contract other than Chalmers. Outside of Rondo and Perkins (who were already on the team) the Celtics didn't do an amazing job acquiring veteran talent. I wouldn't say Powe/Brown/Posey are any better than Haslem/Battier/Miller.

Chronz
05-20-2012, 03:52 PM
Why do people ignore the fact that Boston managed to build an elite bench around their big 3 in 07, who actually took up more of the cap space if I recall correctly. You don't see Miami having key role players like a Rondo, Perkins, Powe, PJ Brown, Posey.
Even now they are building a better bench. Imagine Bass in Miami, Stiemsa is already way better than Joel, Keyon is a better backup PG than anyone on Miami. Where is Posey anyways? Why not give him a flier.

kozelkid
05-20-2012, 03:54 PM
Well they difference was the Celtics had some hidden gems on their team. No one knew how good Rondo and Perkins were going to be. If they did they would have made more of an effort to try to pry those guys from the Celtics. The Heat did not have any young potential on their team. They had nobody on contract other than Chalmers. Outside of Rondo and Perkins (who were already on the team) the Celtics didn't do an amazing job acquiring veteran talent. I wouldn't say Powe/Brown/Posey are any better than Haslem/Battier/Miller.

They sure did.

Beasley for one (as much of a chucker as he is). Dorell Wright for another.

And Posey, Brown, Powe is significantly better. Brown and Haslem is a wash, but Posey was far better for Boston than Miller for Miami and Powe blows either out of the water. Especially given the price they paid for their guys.

Riley was too cocky for his own good. He simply gave away Beasley and plenty 4 first rounders for Bosh and Lebron iirc.

Chronz
05-20-2012, 03:54 PM
Well they difference was the Celtics had some hidden gems on their team. No one knew how good Rondo and Perkins were going to be. If they did they would have made more of an effort to try to pry those guys from the Celtics. The Heat did not have any young potential on their team. They had nobody on contract other than Chalmers. Outside of Rondo and Perkins (who were already on the team) the Celtics didn't do an amazing job acquiring veteran talent. I wouldn't say Powe/Brown/Posey are any better than Haslem/Battier/Miller.
Thats actually not true, the Sonics were asking for Rondo, they relented but yes your point about them having more talent once they acquired the Big 3 still stands.

But look at the core outside of those 3 even now. And Ainge is another guy who I feel is overrated, but even he managed to find a quality backup center.

JoeyBoy718
05-20-2012, 03:56 PM
Even now they are building a better bench. Imagine Bass in Miami, Stiemsa is already way better than Joel, Keyon is a better backup PG than anyone on Miami. Where is Posey anyways? Why not give him a flier.

The Celtics were loaded with young potential and high draft picks when they got the big 3. They had more to work with. The Heat did not. Actually the Heat had some young guys in Dorrell Wright and Michael Beasley but they decided to get rid of their young guys and build around their big 3 with veteran role players. The Celtics tried to get younger while the Heat chose to get older.

kozelkid
05-20-2012, 03:59 PM
The Celtics were loaded with young potential and high draft picks when they got the big 3. They had more to work with. The Heat did not. Actually the Heat had some young guys in Dorrell Wright and Michael Beasley but they decided to get rid of their young guys and build around their big 3 with veteran role players. The Celtics tried to get younger while the Heat chose to get older.

There's your problem. A pretty stupid decision by Riley. When you have a championship team, you would want young guys like Wright or Beasley. It's a great atmosphere that helps young players improve exponentially. Look no further than obviously Rondo and Perkins. Or even in LA with Shannon Brown and Trevor Ariza.

JoeyBoy718
05-20-2012, 04:00 PM
Thats actually not true, the Sonics were asking for Rondo, they relented but yes your point about them having more talent once they acquired the Big 3 still stands.

But look at the core outside of those 3 even now. And Ainge is another guy who I feel is overrated, but even he managed to find a quality backup center.

Well, they've also had a few years of a head start on the Heat. Also, the Celtics haven't been afraid to make a trade (granted, they have more worth trading). Ainge has made some very controversial moves. Maybe it's that gambling man mentality that keeps this team relevant.

Chronz
05-20-2012, 04:04 PM
Yes. Jordan needed Luc Longley in the paint. Without him the Bulls would have never won.
Arent you the one who constantly discredits him saying he needed the help of refs and what not? LOL even so, look at how far back you had to go. You think your 1 player example (of the Greatest player of all time mind you) is more relevant to todays game than the bigs recent champs have had?


Seriously...whatever LBJ has been surrounded with, hasn't been enough. He had Big-Z, Shaq and Anderson-V in the paint, with Jamison at PF and he didn't win. Then he needed a 'shooting guard'. Now he has a shooting guard and he needs a center. For real?

lol look at the names you just mentioned. Is that suppose to be impressive? And those were the strengths in your opinion?


James made his own bed. He can lay in it. Wade is better than Pippen, so James has a better wing-man than Jordan had, and while Bosh isn't quite the rebounded Rodman was, he is a huge step up from Horace Grant and gives more on offence than Rodman ever did.

I dont see Bosh around do you? Have you been watching Wade recently? And sorry but I dont think the eras are comparable, for their eras MJ had the best talent alongside him. Bron currently does not.


Jordan got it done with a league that actually HAD qaulity bigs (Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem, Shaq, ect..), the least LBJ can do is get it done against Hibbert. I mean... this is Hibbert we are talking about here, not Hakeem... not Ewing... not Shaq...

Your problem is oversimplification, who was Robinsons greatest sidekick? Ewing? Shaq was able to beat MJ when his team was healthy, but aside from not being as good as MJ he didnt have the same support definitely not without Horace.


I have no sympathy for LBJ. Whatever situation he is in, he needs more help. It's got to tell you something about this guy. Is he a stat stuffer? Yes. Is he a winner? Not yet.

Dont care

JoeyBoy718
05-20-2012, 04:04 PM
There's your problem. A pretty stupid decision by Riley. When you have a championship team, you would want young guys like Wright or Beasley. It's a great atmosphere that helps young players improve exponentially. Look no further than obviously Rondo and Perkins. Or even in LA with Shannon Brown and Trevor Ariza.

It was the popular decision at the time. Many people agreed that they needed to surround the big 3 of Miami with veterans. The difference with the Celtics (aside from actually having young talent on the roster) was that their big 3 was older and past their prime, so blending them with young talent made sense. The Heat, on the other hand, was viewed as fairly young and very much in their prime, so they felt that having some veteran help was the best option. The Heat were built to win now. And no one really knew how could Wright or Beasley were going to be. They got a lot of criticism the year before the big 3.

rapsallday
05-20-2012, 04:07 PM
i think he meant a more rounded team. So trade 1 of wade or bosh for a better overall team.

this!!!

kozelkid
05-20-2012, 04:08 PM
It was the popular decision at the time. Many people agreed that they needed to surround the big 3 of Miami with veterans. The difference with the Celtics (aside from actually having young talent on the roster) was that their big 3 was older and past their prime, so blending them with young talent made sense. The Heat, on the other hand, was viewed as fairly young and very much in their prime, so they felt that having some veteran help was the best option. The Heat were built to win now. And no one really knew how could Wright or Beasley were going to be. They got a lot of criticism the year before the big 3.

There's nothing wrong with veterans, but you need a combination. You certainly can't rely on washed up corpses like Big Z, Juwan Howard and Bibby; players who are completely, utterly useless because when all of a sudden you are hit with injuries (see: this year), you're ****ed. You always need depth and reliable players, whether you are young or old. If anything Miami was incredibly lucky last year that their big 3 was healthy throughout. This year? Not so much.

Win now doesn't mean you completely give up on having any youthful players. Depth is depth. I'd rather have a young scrub who has potential to improve than an old fart who will only continue to decline and has no hope of improving.

Chronz
05-20-2012, 04:14 PM
I just cant understand how Riley could take all the time to develop and praise a kid like Wright, seen first hand his versatility on both ends, see the improvements in his game and understanding of how to play off the ball, then go ahead and decide to take a declining/ball dominant/reluctant "shooter" instead. It was truly baffling. He just spent half a decade developing the kid. Wright would be very useful in this series against the mammoth wings the Pacers deploy.

JoeyBoy718
05-20-2012, 04:14 PM
I'd rather have a young scrub who has potential to improve than an old fart who will only continue to decline and has no hope of improving.

And the Heat chose proven over potential. I agree they don't have much outside of the big 3, but that's what happens when you build a superteam. It's very hard to build a supporting cast with no cap space or draft picks to work with. It's possible but it's very difficult.

Chronz
05-20-2012, 04:21 PM
The Heat chose a proven misfit over a guy with potential that was already the superior player. Thats not an excuse..

Every other decision has some sort of logcal gamble to it. But there was nothing smart about choosing Miller.

kozelkid
05-20-2012, 04:21 PM
And the Heat chose proven over potential. I agree they don't have much outside of the big 3, but that's what happens when you build a superteam. It's very hard to build a supporting cast with no cap space or draft picks to work with. It's possible but it's very difficult.

But as you have agreed, they already had some potential, promising players in Beasley and Wright. Personally, I don't think it's that difficult. I think they had enough opportunities to build the right team. Many might accuse me of using hindsight, but I stand by the thought process that I initially thought that they made some dumb moves as well as very cocky moves. Like I said, I think Riley was cocky and careless.

Chronz
05-20-2012, 04:23 PM
And I refuse to believe Korver wouldnt have come to Miami.

JoeyBoy718
05-20-2012, 04:24 PM
The Heat chose a proven misfit over a guy with potential that was already the superior player. Thats not an excuse..

Every other decision has some sort of logcal gamble to it. But there was nothing smart about choosing Miller.

It was a bad signing. I agree. But what if the Heat had a healthy Bosh and Dorrell Wright instead of Mike Miller and they still didn't win?

JoeyBoy718
05-20-2012, 04:31 PM
But as you have agreed, they already had some potential, promising players in Beasley and Wright. Personally, I don't think it's that difficult. I think they had enough opportunities to build the right team. Many might accuse me of using hindsight, but I stand by the thought process that I initially thought that they made some dumb moves as well as very cocky moves. Like I said, I think Riley was cocky and careless.

I doubt they would have been able to afford Beasley, Chalmers, Haslem, Wright and the big 3. And Beasley gets passed around more than a high school cheerleader. I doubt he's the missing key to a championship. And you have to consider, the Heat got many of these guys at a discount. If guys didn't take less to play in Miami, the supporting cast would look a lot worse than it does now.

kozelkid
05-20-2012, 04:31 PM
It was a bad signing. I agree. But what if the Heat had a healthy Bosh and Dorrell Wright instead of Mike Miller and they still didn't win?

If they had a healthy cast and Lebron was the one who underperformed, then it's clearly his fault (see: Dallas series).

Chronz
05-20-2012, 04:32 PM
Dont know, dont much care, just saying Chuck is right about the support and its completely a result of Rileys inability to provide it. His extension to Joel (even the one to Chalmers) were more lucrative than the market dictated. I dont think anyone was jumping to snag those guys away. Hes always been this way, remember the contract he gave to Briant Grant? He was only able to shed that one away because the Lakers had to trade Shaq and Shaq gave them a short list of teams. That contract is directly responsible for wasting Kobes prime years.

The man took FOREVER to start scouting foreign players (from various accounts Ive read). I think Bron was fooled by those rings on his fingers from a much different era. Riley is so overrated.

JoeyBoy718
05-20-2012, 04:34 PM
Let's pretend the Heat didn't get lucky by having most of the team take a discount to play in Miami. Wade/Bron/Bosh could have all gotten the max. If they did take the max and didn't sign for less to play in Miami, the Heat would have had to use all minimum contracts on the rest of the roster. Do you know how bad a minimum contract player is? Very bad. The Heat are lucky enough to have as good a supporting cast as they do now.

kozelkid
05-20-2012, 04:39 PM
Dont know, dont much care, just saying Chuck is right about the support and its completely a result of Rileys inability to provide the support. His extension to Joel (even the one to Chalmers) were more lucrative than the market dictated. I dont think anyone was jumping to snag those guys away. Hes always been this way, remember the contract he gave to Briant Grant? He was only able to shed that one away because the Lakers had to trade Shaq and Shaq gave them a short list of teams. That contract is directly responsible for wasting Kobes prime years.

The man took FOREVER to start scouting foreign players (from various accounts Ive read). I think Bron was fooled by those rings on his fingers from a much different era. Riley is so overrated.

Pretty much this. And from what I've read, Riley is obviously a very charismatic and convincing individual. And again, it's pretty obvious that Wade was the biggest reason. They joined together cause they're friends and Miami had the cap space and is a nice, warm spot. Could have just as well been Orlando or the LAC if they were the teams with virtually all the cap along with Wade. It happened to be Miami.

Don't be fooled, Riley was just the cherry on top. You could just as well say they spurned "Mecca", Prokhorov and Brooklyn or the house that MJ built. If any of those teams had the cap space and already a top 5 player that the other two were best buds with, they'd be on that team.

You guys can blame Lebron for being a poor talent evaluator if you want. Although I think it's pretty obvious that 90% of NBA players are terrible evaluators. But, the point stands that Lebron has only had one season of a good enough cast where he failed.

kozelkid
05-20-2012, 04:43 PM
Let's pretend the Heat didn't get lucky by having most of the team take a discount to play in Miami. Wade/Bron/Bosh could have all gotten the max. If they did take the max and didn't sign for less to play in Miami, the Heat would have had to use all minimum contracts on the rest of the roster. Do you know how bad a minimum contract player is? Very bad. The Heat are lucky enough to have as good a supporting cast as they do now.

First of all they wouldn't. That's what MLE (Riley used it on Miller :facepalm:), LLE are for. Second of all, there are plenty of veteran ring chasers out there who are willing to take minimum. Riley chose the wrong ones.

Not to mention, why does this hypothetical matter? They gave Riley the opportunity and flexibility to actually acquire good role players. Instead, they wasted it on garbage. I mean, again why waste a WHOLE MLE on a mediocre, injury prone player when they could have split it for say a CJ Watson and Ronnie Brewer or Kyle Korver.

JoeyBoy718
05-20-2012, 04:46 PM
I'm just not gonna feel sorry for a big market team. Are players taking a discount to play in Minnesota or Indiana? Small markets actually have less money to work with since they have to overspend for players who would take a pay-cut to play for a big market team. It's nice to see a team like Indiana who does it the honest way, by doing well in the draft, making smart trade, developing young talent, having a good coaching staff, and player team basketball.

kozelkid
05-20-2012, 05:18 PM
I'm just not gonna feel sorry for a big market team. Are players taking a discount to play in Minnesota or Indiana? Small markets actually have less money to work with since they have to overspend for players who would take a pay-cut to play for a big market team. It's nice to see a team like Indiana who does it the honest way, by doing well in the draft, making smart trade, developing young talent, having a good coaching staff, and player team basketball.

You think I feel sorry for Lebron? I'm a Bulls fan and I hate his guts. I think he's a narcissistic, spoiled prick. But I'm not gonna pretend, like media hacks (aka Skip Bayless) or Lebron haters, that Lebron is worse than inferior players like Kobe or Wade because they had more opportunities with better casts to lead their teams to a championship than him.

BULLSFAN0810
05-20-2012, 05:43 PM
I myself as a Bulls.fan think the team is ok.. The aren't smart enough to see what they really have...without the long reason ......

Wade. pg.. Ron Harper to MJ
Sg.. Bron...keep teams honest on perimeter
Sf..miller ...floor stretcher...
Pf....Bosh....pick and roll
Center... f.A

if you cant full the bench now, I don't know what to say.

dodie53
05-20-2012, 06:22 PM
really Charles?
really?

willabeast77
05-20-2012, 06:34 PM
Barkley is just looking for attention like he always does. This is not anything new,

ne3xchamps
05-20-2012, 07:00 PM
I think he meant a more rounded team. So trade 1 of Wade or Bosh for a better overall team.

It will be bosh IMO. Wade is going to retire in Miami. I said that last year.... Trade bosh to get a more balanced team. If the heat don't win it all this year, bosh is gone IMO.

willabeast77
05-20-2012, 07:04 PM
It will be bosh IMO. Wade is going to retire in Miami. I said that last year.... Trade bosh to get a more balanced team. If the heat don't win it all this year, bosh is gone IMO.

Why would they trade Bosh if he doesn't play again? If he comes back in these playoffs but plays poorly then that would make more sense in trading him. If Miami does not win the title this season without Bosh, they should still keep the Big 3 of LeBron/Wade/Bosh, for at least one more season.

ne3xchamps
05-20-2012, 07:07 PM
We all knew this was going to happen. Why are we now shocked that what we knew was gonna happen has happened?

Go back 2 offseasons ago. The Bulls had a solid team around them, and could have probably acquired LeBron without losing anybody but maybe Deng. The Cavs could have resigned LeBron but we don't know if they could have done much more than they did in the 7 seasons prior. And lastly, the Heat had just signed Chris Bosh. The Heat could have resigned some key players and went out and built a solid team around Wade and Bosh but they chose to put all their eggs in the basket of Wade/Bosh/Bron. And Bron could have chosen to go to a team like the Bulls who many people were saying were a much more complete team, but he chose to go to a Heat team with only Bosh/Wade/Chalmers on the roster and nothing but an MLE and minimum contracts to build around after signing Bron. He made his choice. Everyone was predicting this is what was probably going to happen, and, for the most part, they were right. It wasn't a bad decision, since they made the Finals last year, but we knew they would have issues. Why is this so shocking? This is what happens when you build a "super team." Maybe that's why nobody does it...

This.

Miami has excellent players, but they don't have a good "team". But you can't say those things or you are labeled a hater and umad?

ne3xchamps
05-20-2012, 07:11 PM
Why would they trade Bosh if he doesn't play again? If he comes back in these playoffs but plays poorly then that would make more sense in trading him. If Miami does not win the title this season without Bosh, they should still keep the Big 3 of LeBron/Wade/Bosh, for at least one more season.

IMO Miami isn't going to win a championship this year, with or without bosh. The celtics did a good job against them this year because they are more of a "team". If they make it to the Finals, then they have to deal with OKC, who are more balanced then Miami.

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-20-2012, 10:07 PM
I just think people are tired of the excuses. When he was in Cleveland people would always say all he had was good role players, all he would need is some stars around him and he would win multiple rings. So he gets the best wing man in the game beside him and one of the best bigs in the game and now people wish he had his role players back.

One thing that no one brings up is his negative impact he has on his teammates overall production. Wades and Bosh's numbers have severly declined since he joined with them. Same thing happened to Mo Williams and the other guys he had in Cleveland. Maybe that's why everyone was so high on the signings of Miller, Battier, Haslem etc. They probably seen what those players did before they played with LBJ and fed in to the misconception he makes his teammates better. So when these players follow the trend all his other teammates have set by playing worse along side of him, it's their fault for his lack of success

justinnum1
05-20-2012, 10:43 PM
IMO Miami isn't going to win a championship this year, with or without bosh. The celtics did a good job against them this year because they are more of a "team". If they make it to the Finals, then they have to deal with OKC, who are more balanced then Miami.

celtics need to get by the sixers first.

jrm2054
05-20-2012, 10:59 PM
wow Barkley is funny what does he want them to do

Wade>You
05-21-2012, 12:14 AM
Charles Barkley doesn't hide the fact that he's biased against players and sticks up for coaches. Truth is, LeBron never had a Wade or Bosh. What he's stuck with is a garbage coach who thinks Battier and Joel Anthony are the greatest players on the planet.

Draco
05-21-2012, 01:29 AM
I just think people are tired of the excuses.

Or amused that anyone other than Heat fans want the stars to align in such a way that allows Lebron to steamroll over the NBA. I mean, they've only been to the Finals last year. Charles Barkley: Heat management needs to get Lebron more help than anyone other team has in the NBA. That should do it! 7 rings, easy. Me: F em. Let Lebron and Wade score 70 points a game to earn a ring. Make them work.

Chronz
05-21-2012, 01:44 AM
I just think people are tired of the excuses. When he was in Cleveland people would always say all he had was good role players, all he would need is some stars around him and he would win multiple rings. So he gets the best wing man in the game beside him and one of the best bigs in the game and now people wish he had his role players back.
Who said that? What I said was that without Bosh and with Wade being hurt, this team is no better than Cleveland, and that Riley has made some horrible decisions with his limited assets.


One thing that no one brings up is his negative impact he has on his teammates overall production. Wades and Bosh's numbers have severly declined since he joined with them.
That tends to happen when players have overlapping skillsets. Bosh is being used in a role to maximize the TEAM not his own stats. He basically a better version of what Karl Malone became when he joined LA.


Same thing happened to Mo Williams and the other guys he had in Cleveland.
Mo Williams? WTF?


Maybe that's why everyone was so high on the signings of Miller, Battier, Haslem etc. They probably seen what those players did before they played with LBJ and fed in to the misconception he makes his teammates better. So when these players follow the trend all his other teammates have set by playing worse along side of him, it's their fault for his lack of success

Ive seen this argument before, there is SOME truth to it, but to say ALL his teammates followed that trend is false. I knew Miller was a bad fit, Haslem may play worse with Bron, but Battier? Have you not payed attention to his role his entire career? There is nothing different about his game aside from the fact that hes declining.

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-21-2012, 01:47 AM
Or amused that anyone other than Heat fans want the stars to align in such a way that allows Lebron to steamroll over the NBA. I mean, they've only been to the Finals last year. Charles Barkley: Heat management needs to get Lebron more help than anyone other team has in the NBA. That should do it! 7 rings, easy.

That's what it seems like. Teams take different paths on how they want to build a championship caliber team. The Heat chose to bring 3 great players together and give them most of the salary cap, and fill the rest of the spots with players that would help the two main stars get assist on kick outs. They chose to ignore defensive bigs and are now paying for it.

But that is hindsight thinking. When you have two guys who love to drive and kick, it makes sense to want to bring in guys who hit 3's. They are built almost exactly like the Cavs with the guys who can spread the floor. But everyone spreading out while the star tries to drive and create is not a very good offense to run in the playoffs. We will see I guess. I hope they get to the next round and Bosh comes back. I want them to be fully healthy and get to the finals. I don't think they can beat the Thunder or Spurs though

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-22-2012, 06:41 PM
Chronz;22257368Who said that? What I said was that without Bosh and with Wade being hurt, this team is no better than Cleveland, and that Riley has made some horrible decisions with his limited assets.

I cant remember the peoples names on various websites including this one, or radio callers/host that I heard it from, but that was one of the arguments they would use for Lebron over Kobe. "If Lebron had Pau Gasol, he would win a ring too" is what they would say. They would say he just needed a better sidekick, and he would win titles guaranteed.

I agree that Riley made some bad decisions, but every team does. But when those teams make bad trades/signings, the best player always gets the blame. Kobe is being called washed up, not a good leader, a choke artist because the Lakers cant seem to get out of the second round now. But Barkley or no one else is saying that he needs more help. I think the 4 and 5 year contracts that were given out to Luke Walton, Sasha Vujacic, Steve Blake, the dumping of all draft picks, Jordan Farmar, Trevor Ariza, and Lamar Odom would constitute someone pointing out that Kobe had no chance this year. But those excuses are not being given to him. Nor should they.


That tends to happen when players have overlapping skillsets. Bosh is being used in a role to maximize the TEAM not his own stats. He basically a better version of what Karl Malone became when he joined LA.

I'm not just referring to Bosh and Wade's numbers/efficiency. I am talking about just about all players that are on Brons teams. I dont have time to delve into why I think these guys dont produce once they are teamed up with him, but I'll post some of their numbers. These are mainly players that played without Lebron, and then with him that had big roles on his Cleveland and Miami teams. There is a very steady trend. Most of them played better before or after they were relegated to standing in the corner hoping a pass would come their way.

This is what they have done along side of Lebron James

Chalmers, had a better rookie season then he did these past two years.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chalmma01.html

Haslem, worst two years of career
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hasleud01.html

Wade, two of his worse years in the league
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html

Bosh has had his two worst years since his first two seasons.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html

Joel Anthony last year had his worst year of his career, this year had one of his better ones.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anthojo01.html

James Jones has had two of his better years with James
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jonesja02.html

Shane Battier had his worst season ever next to Lebron but you cant really fault him. He has been trending down for the past couple of years.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/battish01.html

Mike Miller has had his two worst years of his career as well. Might have been the injury, maybe does not fit Lebron's skill sets. But that may be Lebrons problem. You have to be so specific in the type of players you put around him, or else they dont succeed. You dont want too good of a point guard because Lebron likes to have the ball. You dont want a great slasher/ drive and kick man because thats what Lebron does, and he is not one to spread the floor for the drive and kick type player. You dont want a big man who lives in the post asking to be fed the ball because it clogs up the paint for Lebrons drives and you dont get assist when you dump the ball into the post etc etc etc.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/millemi01.html

Mo Williams had his best season at 25, right before he went to Cleveland. Then declined every year after.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html

Delonte West had average years in Cleveland
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westde01.html

Wally had his two worst season next to Lebron. Granted, he was 30 and 31.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/szczewa02.html

Larry Hughes had 6 productive years before he went to Cleveland, then fell off the map.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hughela01.html

Damon Jones had his best year in Miami at age 28, but once he goes to Cleveland, he falls off the map at age 29
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jonesda01.html

Drew Gooden has a funny career arc. He had good seasons until his first season in Cleveland when he had his best season at age 23. The next three years he falls off the map while playing with Lebron. As soon as he is traded to the Bulls, he starts producing again and has been ever since. He had his three worst years of his career next to Lebron at ages 24, 25, and 26. Typically when a player starts to maximize his efficiency.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/goodedr01.html



Mo Williams? WTF?

See above.



Ive seen this argument before, there is SOME truth to it, but to say ALL his teammates followed that trend is false. I knew Miller was a bad fit, Haslem may play worse with Bron, but Battier? Have you not payed attention to his role his entire career? There is nothing different about his game aside from the fact that hes declining.

I did touch on this above. Battier is getting older so I can understand his numbers not improving. But the rest of the players career arcs look off. They seem to rise until they play along side Bron, then they seem to decline for no reason, but once he leaves their production efficiency go back up. A players arc is not supposed to look like rolling hills. And you would not think that their production/efficiency is not at the bottom of the hill when they play along such a great player.

khaleesi
05-22-2012, 08:02 PM
MORE help? Really?

SMH.

khaleesi
05-22-2012, 08:05 PM
I cant remember the peoples names on various websites including this one, or radio callers/host that I heard it from, but that was one of the arguments they would use for Lebron over Kobe. "If Lebron had Pau Gasol, he would win a ring too" is what they would say. They would say he just needed a better sidekick, and he would win titles guaranteed.

I agree that Riley made some bad decisions, but every team does. But when those teams make bad trades/signings, the best player always gets the blame. Kobe is being called washed up, not a good leader, a choke artist because the Lakers cant seem to get out of the second round now. But Barkley or no one else is saying that he needs more help. I think the 4 and 5 year contracts that were given out to Luke Walton, Sasha Vujacic, Steve Blake, the dumping of all draft picks, Jordan Farmar, Trevor Ariza, and Lamar Odom would constitute someone pointing out that Kobe had no chance this year. But those excuses are not being given to him. Nor should they.



I'm not just referring to Bosh and Wade's numbers/efficiency. I am talking about just about all players that are on Brons teams. I dont have time to delve into why I think these guys dont produce once they are teamed up with him, but I'll post some of their numbers. These are mainly players that played without Lebron, and then with him that had big roles on his Cleveland and Miami teams. There is a very steady trend. Most of them played better before or after they were relegated to standing in the corner hoping a pass would come their way.

This is what they have done along side of Lebron James

Chalmers, had a better rookie season then he did these past two years.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chalmma01.html

Haslem, worst two years of career
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hasleud01.html

Wade, two of his worse years in the league
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html

Bosh has had his two worst years since his first two seasons.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html

Joel Anthony last year had his worst year of his career, this year had one of his better ones.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anthojo01.html

James Jones has had two of his better years with James
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jonesja02.html

Shane Battier had his worst season ever next to Lebron but you cant really fault him. He has been trending down for the past couple of years.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/battish01.html

Mike Miller has had his two worst years of his career as well. Might have been the injury, maybe does not fit Lebron's skill sets. But that may be Lebrons problem. You have to be so specific in the type of players you put around him, or else they dont succeed. You dont want too good of a point guard because Lebron likes to have the ball. You dont want a great slasher/ drive and kick man because thats what Lebron does, and he is not one to spread the floor for the drive and kick type player. You dont want a big man who lives in the post asking to be fed the ball because it clogs up the paint for Lebrons drives and you dont get assist when you dump the ball into the post etc etc etc.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/millemi01.html

Mo Williams had his best season at 25, right before he went to Cleveland. Then declined every year after.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html

Delonte West had average years in Cleveland
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westde01.html

Wally had his two worst season next to Lebron. Granted, he was 30 and 31.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/szczewa02.html

Larry Hughes had 6 productive years before he went to Cleveland, then fell off the map.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hughela01.html

Damon Jones had his best year in Miami at age 28, but once he goes to Cleveland, he falls off the map at age 29
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jonesda01.html

Drew Gooden has a funny career arc. He had good seasons until his first season in Cleveland when he had his best season at age 23. The next three years he falls off the map while playing with Lebron. As soon as he is traded to the Bulls, he starts producing again and has been ever since. He had his three worst years of his career next to Lebron at ages 24, 25, and 26. Typically when a player starts to maximize his efficiency.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/goodedr01.html




See above.




I did touch on this above. Battier is getting older so I can understand his numbers not improving. But the rest of the players career arcs look off. They seem to rise until they play along side Bron, then they seem to decline for no reason, but once he leaves their production efficiency go back up. A players arc is not supposed to look like rolling hills. And you would not think that their production/efficiency is not at the bottom of the hill when they play along such a great player.

Where are the PER guys who think he is GOAT?

FWIW, I agree. He drains the life out of his team mates.

pedrofan45
05-22-2012, 08:25 PM
I cant remember the peoples names on various websites including this one, or radio callers/host that I heard it from, but that was one of the arguments they would use for Lebron over Kobe. "If Lebron had Pau Gasol, he would win a ring too" is what they would say. They would say he just needed a better sidekick, and he would win titles guaranteed.


There's a lot of factors that go into making a championship team. I still think to this day that if Lebron had the team's kobe had he would win titles. Kobe's had one of the greatest coaches of all time, great role players, and big men. Gasol was a great sidekick, he wasn't another alpha male like wade who has the exact same game as lebron. It'd be like having Kobe and Lebron together, the team wouldn't work.

Chronz
05-22-2012, 10:08 PM
I appreciate the links but there really is no need, you already know that we both know the players and where we can find stats. No need to go through that ordeal with me bro. Just state your case.


I cant remember the peoples names on various websites including this one, or radio callers/host that I heard it from, but that was one of the arguments they would use for Lebron over Kobe. "If Lebron had Pau Gasol, he would win a ring too" is what they would say. They would say he just needed a better sidekick, and he would win titles guaranteed.
Maybe they meant if you transplanted Gasol to the team in Cleveland (I dunno). But its definitely not relevant to my point.


I agree that Riley made some bad decisions, but every team does. But when those teams make bad trades/signings, the best player always gets the blame. Kobe is being called washed up, not a good leader, a choke artist because the Lakers cant seem to get out of the second round now. But Barkley or no one else is saying that he needs more help. I think the 4 and 5 year contracts that were given out to Luke Walton, Sasha Vujacic, Steve Blake, the dumping of all draft picks, Jordan Farmar, Trevor Ariza, and Lamar Odom would constitute someone pointing out that Kobe had no chance this year. But those excuses are not being given to him. Nor should they.

Im not following you, nor does it change the fact that they are mistakes that have resulted in this team being Cleveland 2.0 if Wade isnt playing up to par (which he wasnt when this thread was made). I mean the man needed to put up a legendary performance just to win a game in Indiana. That says it all.


I'm not just referring to Bosh and Wade's numbers/efficiency. I am talking about just about all players that are on Brons teams. I dont have time to delve into why I think these guys dont produce once they are teamed up with him, but I'll post some of their numbers. These are mainly players that played without Lebron, and then with him that had big roles on his Cleveland and Miami teams. There is a very steady trend. Most of them played better before or after they were relegated to standing in the corner hoping a pass would come their way.

There are lots of factors that come to play in this and like I said, there is SOME truth to it, but definitely not all. And Mo Williams was an especially bad choice.


This is what they have done along side of Lebron James

Chalmers, had a better rookie season then he did these past two years.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chalmma01.html

Chalmers declined the year before Bron as well....? Sometimes players have ups and downs throughout their career and RIGHT NOW, Chalmer is enjoying the best season of his career and his efficiency over the past 2 years collectively has been better with Bron on the court. This is a really poor choice, there are better names you can throw around.


Haslem, worst two years of career
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hasleud01.html

Yea that one is troubling, not sure what has happened to Haslems shot but I dare you to name whats so different about his role. Still this one seems to have some truth to it because there is an undeniable synergy with he and Wade IMO.


Wade, two of his worse years in the league
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html

No doubt they both put up better stats without each other, its most extreme case of a redundent skillset Ive seen. They dont compliment each other very well, but Wade also saw his stats drop the year before Bron showed up. I do think hes declining but I would agree that Bron makes Wade less effective, as Wade does to Bron. Wade is still producing at an elite rate and his rate of WS has remained the same, so there are some positives.


Bosh has had his two worst years since his first two seasons.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html

See Karl Malone comment.


Joel Anthony last year had his worst year of his career, this year had one of his better ones.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anthojo01.html

Im not seeing what your seeing. I see basically the same player but I will agree there is very little difference in his game regardless of Bron. Hes such a low usage player that his role is consistent regardless of who he plays with.



Mike Miller has had his two worst years of his career as well. Might have been the injury, maybe does not fit Lebron's skill sets. But that may be Lebrons problem. You have to be so specific in the type of players you put around him, or else they dont succeed. You dont want too good of a point guard because Lebron likes to have the ball. You dont want a great slasher/ drive and kick man because thats what Lebron does, and he is not one to spread the floor for the drive and kick type player. You dont want a big man who lives in the post asking to be fed the ball because it clogs up the paint for Lebrons drives and you dont get assist when you dump the ball into the post etc etc etc.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/millemi01.html

I dont agree with your overall assessment, Bron spaces the floor all the way out to the 3 better than a guy like Wade and is arguably on par with Kobe and his passing ability can be utilized in a variety of ways for all those players. The only thing I agree on is for guys who are triple threat (shoot-pass-drive) players, solid all around but not overly efficient, the team isnt going to waste possessions optimizing that skillset when its redundent and less effective than the MVP so that players game is likely to suffer with Bron. You dont pair 2 Point Forwards with each other thats for sure. Hell pairing 2 PG's usually resorts in one of them suffering and Mike Miller has to share the ball with 2 other superstars. I knew he was a horrible signing, his reputation as a shooter is overblown. Hes been declining for awhile now as well. But yes Bron makes him worse, as does Wade.


Mo Williams had his best season at 25, right before he went to Cleveland. Then declined every year after.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html

Not at all, he had his BEST season alongside Bron but I wouldnt attribute that to Bron really, seemed to me he was the same player only at the apex of his abilities. He had the best stretch of his career with Bron but like the expression gos, correlation doesnt always equal causation. I think Mo would have played this good regardless of where he was. He did begin to suck once Bron left but that had more to do with injuries, hes healthy now but its possible injuries have robbed him abit so I wont attribute that to Bron. Still not a good example. Eric Snow is a better example. He and Bron clashed bad, the Bron/Snow/Hughes lineup was AWFUL in terms of spacing, thankfully they didnt play much together.


Delonte West had average years in Cleveland
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westde01.html

Wally sucked once he initially got to Cleveland but West thrived. His 2nd year in Cleveland was on par with the best hes ever played. Year 3 he was less impressive but I think that was the year the mental problems mounted and his career spiraled once he left Cleveland anyways.


Wally had his two worst season next to Lebron. Granted, he was 30 and 31.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/szczewa02.html

Year 2 was much better, his per possession efficiency was the highest of his career albeit in limited touches but thats not a bad way to end your career IMO. He was obviously not the same (its why he retired) but I would agree he wasnt any better with Bron. IMO it was a neutral relationship.


Larry Hughes had 6 productive years before he went to Cleveland, then fell off the map.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hughela01.html

I seriously doubt James had anything to do with the numerous injuries Hughes endured, he was also a contract year kind of guy so his 1 season anomaly was likely to regress regardless, but yea he really fell off a cliff though its not like the man was any better once he left Cleveland. I do think he wouldve been a poor fit but its a marginal difference.


Damon Jones had his best year in Miami at age 28, but once he goes to Cleveland, he falls off the map at age 29
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jonesda01.html

Damon Jones was great with LeBron, the problem was he went from playing with Wade AND Shaq in his final dominant season to just Bron and only spending roughly half his minutes with Bron. I cant explain why he sucked so bad his first year but he rebounded in Y.2. Atleast when he was with Bron, which was only 772/1176 of the total minutes in 07 and 846/1336 in 08. In ONLY those minutes with Bron he shot 42% and 46.5% respectively those 2 years. Im no Math major so I cant even estimate how badly he shot without Bron to lower his FG% to 38/41% those years. So this one definitely isnt on Bron as there was a CLEAR difference in his play with and without the star.


Drew Gooden has a funny career arc. He had good seasons until his first season in Cleveland when he had his best season at age 23. The next three years he falls off the map while playing with Lebron. As soon as he is traded to the Bulls, he starts producing again and has been ever since. He had his three worst years of his career next to Lebron at ages 24, 25, and 26. Typically when a player starts to maximize his efficiency.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/goodedr01.html

Hes had a very weird career, he couldnt play with Memphis frontcourt so he served a very solid niche in Orlando but then they signed Juwan and forced him to the bench and had to play alot of minutes at the 5 (this was before the league went small). Then he landed with Bron and (like you said) played the absolute BEST basketball of his career. Still he generally played solely with Bron so the fact that he had the best stretch of his career in Cleveland is more significant than the final year. He was never as efficient as he was in Cleveland.


See above.
I stand by my statement. Mo never played better.



I did touch on this above. Battier is getting older so I can understand his numbers not improving. But the rest of the players career arcs look off. They seem to rise until they play along side Bron, then they seem to decline for no reason, but once he leaves their production efficiency go back up. A players arc is not supposed to look like rolling hills. And you would not think that their production/efficiency is not at the bottom of the hill when they play along such a great player.
Can you expand on this? I see that trend happen with some players but you listed some pretty poor examples. And the problem with the players Bron got to play alongside of was that they were usually either injured or on the downswing of their careers.



Ive been thinking about making a thread regarding teammate influence but its so damn taxing that I never finish it up. You have to consider so many variables, some of which have very little to do with the player. Some players play better with 2 stars (Ariza), some with 1, some with none. Some are bad fits for a certain system. Like the triangle is known to stunt prototypical PG's (hence Farmar) but overall I like to think there should be some accountability with the player and his coach as well.

theLgndKllr35
05-22-2012, 10:12 PM
Considering their frontcourt sucks outside of Bosh, I don't think it's that ridiculous of a statement? Yeah, they have an amazing frontcourt, but it's not doing them too many favors when one of their three big pieces goes down.

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-23-2012, 02:19 AM
I appreciate the links but there really is no need, you already know that we both know the players and where we can find stats. No need to go through that ordeal with me bro. Just state your case.


Maybe they meant if you transplanted Gasol to the team in Cleveland (I dunno). But its definitely not relevant to my point.


Im not following you, nor does it change the fact that they are mistakes that have resulted in this team being Cleveland 2.0 if Wade isnt playing up to par (which he wasnt when this thread was made). I mean the man needed to put up a legendary performance just to win a game in Indiana. That says it all.


There are lots of factors that come to play in this and like I said, there is SOME truth to it, but definitely not all. And Mo Williams was an especially bad choice.


Chalmers declined the year before Bron as well....? Sometimes players have ups and downs throughout their career and RIGHT NOW, Chalmer is enjoying the best season of his career and his efficiency over the past 2 years collectively has been better with Bron on the court. This is a really poor choice, there are better names you can throw around.


Yea that one is troubling, not sure what has happened to Haslems shot but I dare you to name whats so different about his role. Still this one seems to have some truth to it because there is an undeniable synergy with he and Wade IMO.


No doubt they both put up better stats without each other, its most extreme case of a redundent skillset Ive seen. They dont compliment each other very well, but Wade also saw his stats drop the year before Bron showed up. I do think hes declining but I would agree that Bron makes Wade less effective, as Wade does to Bron. Wade is still producing at an elite rate and his rate of WS has remained the same, so there are some positives.


See Karl Malone comment.


Im not seeing what your seeing. I see basically the same player but I will agree there is very little difference in his game regardless of Bron. Hes such a low usage player that his role is consistent regardless of who he plays with.



I dont agree with your overall assessment, Bron spaces the floor all the way out to the 3 better than a guy like Wade and is arguably on par with Kobe and his passing ability can be utilized in a variety of ways for all those players. The only thing I agree on is for guys who are triple threat (shoot-pass-drive) players, solid all around but not overly efficient, the team isnt going to waste possessions optimizing that skillset when its redundent and less effective than the MVP so that players game is likely to suffer with Bron. You dont pair 2 Point Forwards with each other thats for sure. Hell pairing 2 PG's usually resorts in one of them suffering and Mike Miller has to share the ball with 2 other superstars. I knew he was a horrible signing, his reputation as a shooter is overblown. Hes been declining for awhile now as well. But yes Bron makes him worse, as does Wade.


Not at all, he had his BEST season alongside Bron but I wouldnt attribute that to Bron really, seemed to me he was the same player only at the apex of his abilities. He had the best stretch of his career with Bron but like the expression gos, correlation doesnt always equal causation. I think Mo would have played this good regardless of where he was. He did begin to suck once Bron left but that had more to do with injuries, hes healthy now but its possible injuries have robbed him abit so I wont attribute that to Bron. Still not a good example. Eric Snow is a better example. He and Bron clashed bad, the Bron/Snow/Hughes lineup was AWFUL in terms of spacing, thankfully they didnt play much together.


Wally sucked once he initially got to Cleveland but West thrived. His 2nd year in Cleveland was on par with the best hes ever played. Year 3 he was less impressive but I think that was the year the mental problems mounted and his career spiraled once he left Cleveland anyways.


Year 2 was much better, his per possession efficiency was the highest of his career albeit in limited touches but thats not a bad way to end your career IMO. He was obviously not the same (its why he retired) but I would agree he wasnt any better with Bron. IMO it was a neutral relationship.


I seriously doubt James had anything to do with the numerous injuries Hughes endured, he was also a contract year kind of guy so his 1 season anomaly was likely to regress regardless, but yea he really fell off a cliff though its not like the man was any better once he left Cleveland. I do think he wouldve been a poor fit but its a marginal difference.


Damon Jones was great with LeBron, the problem was he went from playing with Wade AND Shaq in his final dominant season to just Bron and only spending roughly half his minutes with Bron. I cant explain why he sucked so bad his first year but he rebounded in Y.2. Atleast when he was with Bron, which was only 772/1176 of the total minutes in 07 and 846/1336 in 08. In ONLY those minutes with Bron he shot 42% and 46.5% respectively those 2 years. Im no Math major so I cant even estimate how badly he shot without Bron to lower his FG% to 38/41% those years. So this one definitely isnt on Bron as there was a CLEAR difference in his play with and without the star.


Hes had a very weird career, he couldnt play with Memphis frontcourt so he served a very solid niche in Orlando but then they signed Juwan and forced him to the bench and had to play alot of minutes at the 5 (this was before the league went small). Then he landed with Bron and (like you said) played the absolute BEST basketball of his career. Still he generally played solely with Bron so the fact that he had the best stretch of his career in Cleveland is more significant than the final year. He was never as efficient as he was in Cleveland.


I stand by my statement. Mo never played better.



Can you expand on this? I see that trend happen with some players but you listed some pretty poor examples. And the problem with the players Bron got to play alongside of was that they were usually either injured or on the downswing of their careers.



Ive been thinking about making a thread regarding teammate influence but its so damn taxing that I never finish it up. You have to consider so many variables, some of which have very little to do with the player. Some players play better with 2 stars (Ariza), some with 1, some with none. Some are bad fits for a certain system. Like the triangle is known to stunt prototypical PG's (hence Farmar) but overall I like to think there should be some accountability with the player and his coach as well.

I can always count on you to have solid and sound arguments. That's why I went through the trouble of posting the links. I had to spice up my usually bland post. :)

I would love a thread about players affect on teammates. But yeah, me just looking at Brons teammates took way too much time. I can't imagine doing it for more than two players.

My initial post where I started off with "everyone is probably tired of the excuses" was not meant that Lebron makes excuses, but the media and fans. He definitely has an excuse for not winning a ring yet. Cleveland did not give him the best roster possible, and now Bosh is hurt. But you would have to admit, a lot of things have come out after he comes up short to excuse his bad play, or his teams being bounced from the playoffs.

When he played horrid in the finals vs the Spurs, he was just "very young".

When he did not show up vs the Magic, "he was distracted because someone must have slept with his mom"

When he had some bad games vs the Celtics, "his non shooting elbow is hurt" and Rashard Lewis was with his girlfriend so his mind was not on the game"

His whole career in Cleveland "if he had Kobe's teammates he would win too"

Last regular season," Bosh is over rated. They would have been better with Amare or anyone else. If they don't win, it's Bosh's fault"

Last years going AWOL in the 4th quarters, "he is to good of a teammate and wanted to let Wade get the glory"

This year with Wade and Bosh as his teammates, and multiple players that spread the floor, " he needs more help"

These playoffs "his teammates are not stepping up"

This last one is the one that I have the biggest problem with. It seems to always happen with his teams. Mo Williams disappeared in the playoffs, Wade was gonna be a scapegoat if they lost, his bench players that were coveted by multiple teams have not produced. Those things are always brought up, but no one ever questions if Lebron actually makes his teammates better. They see that he is unselfish and a good passer, and automatically think that he must make his teammates better. But that is not shown in the stats.

You are way more advanced than I am as far as stat knowledge, so do you think that I am mistaken? Is it true that he does improve his teammates games, and I am using the wrong metrics to judge? It may not be his fault at all. Maybe the coaches love Lebrons skill set so much, they overuse him, which in turn drops everyone else's production/efficiency.

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-23-2012, 02:47 AM
There's a lot of factors that go into making a championship team. I still think to this day that if Lebron had the team's kobe had he would win titles. Kobe's had one of the greatest coaches of all time, great role players, and big men. Gasol was a great sidekick, he wasn't another alpha male like wade who has the exact same game as lebron. It'd be like having Kobe and Lebron together, the team wouldn't work.

This is exactly the type of comment I was referring too. You can't just assume that. I bet you assumed that he would win 7 rings in a row if he teamed up with Wade and Bosh right? Doesn't look too easy does it?

Did you ever think that Kobe's teammates looked so great because he was playing with them? Do you know what Trevor Ariza was before he went to the Lakers? How about Shannon Brown? How did Sasha Vujacic pan out after he left? How about Vladimir Radmonivich? Would you want old Derek Fisher starting at point?These are players that were cast offs from multiple teams. Nobody wanted them. But as soon as they play with Kobe, they are all of a sudden the reason he won the last two rings. Caron Butler said he worked all year with Kobe, and then became an all star the next couple of years. Look at Pau Gasol's numbers. He had his best seasons along side Bryant. His production and efficiency went up. Lamar Odom had his best year with Kobe, Shaquille had his best years after Bryant became what he has been for most of his career. There is a common trend that Kobe's teammates set, and it is that they produce better with him as the teams star. And according to the links I provided in the other post, Lebrons teammates do not. So chances are, if the roles were flopped, people would be saying that Lebron did not win because he played with scrubs like Trevor Ariza, Shannon Brown, Sasha Vujacic. And soft @$$ Pau Gasol, head cases in Andrew Bynum, MWP, and Lamar Odom. Because from what history tells me, he would have had the same affect on them as he does on Wade, Bosh, and most of his other teammates. A negative one when it comes to their overall play. So if they switched roles, all I see are some more goats, of the scape variety.

b@llhog24
05-23-2012, 05:08 AM
Because the bulls lost last years MVP.

Let's not act like that's not a legit excuse.

If Miami lost lebron for the playoffs NYC would probably won in five games.

The Heat losing Bosh doesn't do it for you?


Its not that those Detroit guys were just great role players on their own right, its that they became a team and everyone began playing better. You rank them so high because you saw them together as a group when all of their play was elevated.

Their is more than enough talent on that HEAT team to win a chip, they just don't play as a team.

Case in point, Roger Mason Jr. is not a good basketball player, Yet on the Spurs he looked amazing.

Lol have you seen some of the defensive numbers that Detriot has put up when they were together? 4 out of 5 guys in their starting lineup were allstars (Prince may have made one if it wasn't for Lebron and Pierce being in the same conference as him). As for the Roger Mason thing, Pop>just about any coach in Nba history but that's another argument.


I don't get how Rose goes down and the Bulls get destroyed by a Sixers team who isn't nearly as good as this Pacers team. Yet people give the Bulls credit for having a great team built around Rose. Why are people not coming to Rose's defense but they come to LeBron's defense when his team shows flaws?

My point is, Rose is undoubtedly a superstar but people give less credit to Rose as an individual and more credit to the players around him. But his injury shows how bad the players around him are. Nobody makes excuses for any of the superstars except LeBron.

Sixers where a better team than their record indicated, also the Bulls lost Noah as well in that series, funny how you left that out.


Nobody on OKC ever really steps up outside of Durant/Westbrook/Harden. Sure Ibaka gets boards and blocks but he doesn't take over games when one of their big 3 is out. Yet nobody talks about how Durant needs more help around him. Duncan is surrounded by a bunch of 2nd year guys who were undrafted or drafted late in the second round. A year ago, looking at that roster, you would have said the Spurs are doomed. Why should Bron get a team with all the right pieces when no team in the NBA has all the right pieces? First he needed another star--he got 2--and now he needs a supporting cast... If the supporting cast doesn't work then he'll need a coaching staff.

Westbrook hasn't missed a game in his ENTIRE pro career, he has more value to a team than Wade over the course of an 66/82 game season just for the fact that he can remain healthy and produce at a similar rate. Harden fits in as a better third option than Bosh. Bosh's skills aren't being maximize while guys like Harden make the most of their touches. The Spurs continually draft gems after gems, and they just happen to be producing unlike Haslem, Miller, etc.


yeah but they need Phil to coach, too.

Lol and Jerry Sloan is gonna be Ast Coach :laugh2:


Yup. They have three top 25 players, yes. And then nothing....

Who's fault is that?


you dont even realise that there are about 3-4 teams in the NBA whose name doesnt end with an "S" (magic, thunder and heat), and barkely is the idiot? :facepalm:

You have under 10 posts, its in your best interest to sit small until you can actually have a sig.


They might need the avngers for this one.

:laugh:



Mike Miller has had his two worst years of his career as well. Might have been the injury, maybe does not fit Lebron's skill sets. But that may be Lebrons problem. You have to be so specific in the type of players you put around him, or else they dont succeed. You dont want too good of a point guard because Lebron likes to have the ball. You dont want a great slasher/ drive and kick man because thats what Lebron does, and he is not one to spread the floor for the drive and kick type player. You dont want a big man who lives in the post asking to be fed the ball because it clogs up the paint for Lebrons drives and you dont get assist when you dump the ball into the post etc etc etc.
.

That's my main problem with have Lebron on your team, he makes a lot of players ineffective in comparison to a player like Durant. It doesn't mean he isn't the best player but it does make it incredibly hard to put the appropriate talent around him.

b@llhog24
05-23-2012, 05:12 AM
I don't particularly care for Lebron (only player I dislike more than him is probably Kobe and Andy off of the Cavs) but how can you fault him for losing without Bosh and an under-performing (till now) Wade?

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-23-2012, 07:25 PM
I don't particularly care for Lebron (only player I dislike more than him is probably Kobe and Andy off of the Cavs) but how can you fault him for losing without Bosh and an under-performing (till now) Wade?

Not liking Kobe, totally get it, not liking Lebron is understandable. But Andy V? Did he piss in your cereal?

Jay16
05-23-2012, 10:24 PM
The Heat's supporting cast have the easiest job in the NBA but they can't even do that right :laugh2:

Hey just wondering when the Knicks play again ........ooohhh , too soon ?

justinnum1
05-23-2012, 10:56 PM
Hey just wondering when the Knicks play again ........ooohhh , too soon ?

lololol