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View Full Version : 2012 NBA ReDraft FINALS: #1) New York Knicks vs. #1) San Antonio Spurs



KnicksorBust
05-17-2012, 07:44 PM
Welcome to the 2012 NBA ReDraft voting process. The redraft is exactly how it sounds. The rosters of every NBA team are cleared and then drafted again from scratch. Posters from the site draft full rosters under a salary cap and then there is a voting process to make the playoffs. We are now in the playoffs and the head to head matchups have begun. Please remember to vote for the roster and write-up you believe would win a 7 game series and leave any of your personal preference for the real teams out of your decision. Thank you and enjoy the playoffs!

Spurs:
PG: Chris Paul | John Lucas III | Patty Mills
SG: Rip Hamilton | C.J. Miles
SF: Kawhi Leonard | Martell Webster
PF: Elton Brand | Kenyon Martin
C: Al Jefferson | Ian Mahinmi | Anthony Tolliver

Knicks:
PG - Mario Chalmers (32)/Delonte West(16)
SG - Courtney Lee(32)/Delonte West(16)/Xavier Henry /Kelenna Azubuike
SF - Paul Pierce(38)/James Johnson(10)
PF - Dirk Nowitzki(38)/Josh McRoberts(10)
C - Brendan Haywood(26)/Kosta Koufos(18)/Jeremy Tyler(4)


Congrats to the San Antonio Spurs for making it to the NBA Re-Draft Finals. Chacfish1314 have done an amazing job assembling the best team in the West. However, this is where their run comes to an end. The New York Knicks are built for the playoffs. They are led by two former Finals MVPs, in Pierce and Dirk. These guys have proven time and time again that they can get it done. However, the supporting cast weve assembled around them is nothing to scoff at. Courtney Lee erupted this year as a starter and has shown his abilities as a third option, scoring 14 PPG on good percentages as a starter. In addition, we have PG Mario Chalmers who has been lights out this year shooting the ball and is known to be a very good defender. At Center, weve put Dirk next to Haywood, just like in real life. They have proven to be able to work on offense and defense, as the Mavs were a top 10 defensive team this year. Delonte West, who started for the Mavs this year, is the sixth man for this squad and he can play both guard positions. This team has the depth, talent, leadership, and experience to win this series, and here is why:

PG Matchup: Mario Chalmers | Delonte West vs. Chris Paul | John Lucas III

We know CP3 is the best PG in the league and he definitely has the clear advantage here. However, Chalmers matches up fairly well with Paul. Approximately 28% of CPs offense comes off of isolations, and Chalmers gives up only .73 Points Per Possession off of isolations. Approximately 41% of Pauls offense comes off of the Pick and Roll, and Chalmers allows only .7 Points Per Possession off of P&Rs, putting him as the 53rd best in the league. On offense, Chalmers is one of the best spot up shooters in basketball. He shoots 39% from 3 and is ranked as the 16th best spot up shooter in the entire NBA averaging 1.21 PPP. With the attention that Pierce and Dirk command, we expect Chalmers to be able to hit some open threes, like he did in his only meeting versus CP3 this year, when he scored 18 points and went 4-10 from 3. Off the bench, Delonte has the clear advantage as he can contribute 10 points on a nightly basis as the sixth man while providing good defense and playmaking. He may be plugged in at times if the team is in need of penetration on offense. His size and strength may also be an advantage versus CP3.

Advantage: San Antonio Spurs

SG Matchup: Courtney Lee | Delonte West vs. Richard Hamilton | CJ Miles

Here we have a SG on the rise and a SG on the decline. Lee stormed onto the scene this year as a starter when Kevin Martin got hurt. He averaged 14 PPG, 3.3 Rbs, 1.7 Asts, and 1.5 steals as a starter with a silly 40% 3P%. Hes also emerged as a fantastic defender and is just a perfect glue guy and all around player for this team. Hes an efficient scorer and is one of the players who can definitely keep up with Hamilton running around on offense. Hamilton however, will definitely have trouble keeping up with the younger, quicker, more energetic Lee. Lee can slash, shoot and penetrate and is a very solid 3rd option. Off the bench, again, West can add 10 PPG on a consistent basis and provide good defense versus Hamilton and Miles.

Advantage: New York Knicks

SF Matchup: Paul Pierce | James Johnson vs. Kawhi Leonard | Martell Webster

This is the biggest mismatch of the series. A wiley veteran, who is a former Finals MVP and is having another good playoff run, versus an unproven rookie who has had a solid year. In their one matchup this year, Pierce scored 15 points on good efficiency, grabbed 10 boards, and shut down Leonard to a zero point performance. Leonard is a good role player and has potential, but putting a rookie on Pierce who has shown the ability to hit the three, score, rebound and defend at a good rate is just a recipe for disaster for the Spurs. Pierce is also having a great year playmaking wise, averaging 4.5 assists per game, which shows that hes not afraid to pass the ball when hes in trouble and is trying to make the right play. Pierce is ranked as a very good defender according to synergy, so I see no problem in him guarding Kawhi. Most of Kawhis scoring comes from spot-up shots situations, and Pierce is actually only giving up .86 PPP on spotups, which is top 90 in the league. On the other end, Leonards synergy numbers have been relatively disappointing. Hes struggled guarding the P&R and isolation, and luckily Pierce averages. 85 PPP on isos and .83 PPP on P&Rs, both ranking as top 55 in the league. Pierce in the playoffs has averaged 19 PPG on a 53 TS% while grabbing 7 boards per game. He definitely still has the talent and drive to win and has the huge advantage here in the Finals.

Advantage: New York Knicks

PF Matchup: Dirk Nowitzki | Josh McRoberts vs. Elton Brand | Kenyon Martin

This is another big advantage for the Knicks. Elton has had a good year defensively, Dirk always gets the best of him. In their matchup this year, Dirk scored 28 Points on 10-22 shooting while going 2-4 from 3 and 6-6 from the line. Dirk also grabbed 12 boards and dished 2 assists in a Dallas win. Brand on the other hand had a weak 8 points and6 boards versus Dirk. In their previous matchup, Dirk scored 22 points on 9-15 shooting while going 5-5 from the line and grabbing 6 boards while Brand scored 12 points on 5-13 shooting and grabbed 6 rebounds. According to synergy, Dirk is averaging .97 points per possession off of isolations, .89 PPP off of Pick and Rolls, and .93 PPP off of post ups, which are good for 15th, 32nd, and 85th in the league respectively. Though Brand is ranked highly in post up and pick and roll situations, he cannot handle Dirk in one on one isolation situations. Brand is ranked as the 238th best isolation defender in the game giving up .89 points per possession. Dirk has too many ways that he can score and is just too much for Brand especially in the NBA finals.

Advantage: New York Knicks

C Matchup: Brendan Haywood | Kosta Koufos vs. Al Jefferson | Ian Mahinmi

Now this is definitely a matchup favoring the Spurs, but this is another series that Haywood will play an important role. In their four matchups this year, Jefferson has gone 8-18, 4-12, 9-19, and 14-25 (triple OT game where Haywood hardly played). Only in one of those games was Jefferson particularly efficient. Haywood did a great job to stay out of foul trouble as well, averaging only 2.25 fouls per game in his matchups versus Jefferson. Haywood has the big body and strength to defend Jefferson quite well and Haywood can contest with Jefferson on the boards. Synergy also has Haywood ranked as one of the better post defenders in the NBA, which will be vital against a player like Jefferson who spends a lot of his time with his back to the basket. Jefferson also isnt a great help defender down low, so if guys like Lee, Pierce, Dirk, Chalmers or West get free in the paint, they wont face a great deal of resistance. Off the bench, we can also bring in Kosta Koufos who started a bit for the Nuggets and can provide strong defense and rebounding while adding 5-8 Points.

Advantage: San Antonio Spurs

In a matchup this close, in the NBA finals, you know the games are coming down to the fourth quarter. The Knicks and Spurs are both very good teams on both ends and have two main stars. And in the fourth quarter and crunch time, a team with two go-to scorers is just too much to handle. Both Dirk and Pierce can beat their guy off the dribble and are extremely talented in isolation situations, which is what the game usually comes down to in the last few minutes or so. Nowitzki and PP both provide leadership and experience down the stretch and are known to be great closers, as evident by their Finals MVPs. This series will definitely go 6 or 7, but the combination of having two very good defenders play against SAs two stars, having two of the best closers in the game, and having a strong supporting cast around those two stars gives the Knicks the edge. The Knicks win the NBA Finals.




Congratulations to rosh and PK for advancing to the ReDraft Finals. They did an outstanding job building such a strong contender and advancing through the Eastern Conference. Chaca and I wish both of them luck in this series.

As outlined in our previous write-ups, no team in the ReDraft boasts more offensive functionality than these Spurs. We have the most proficient interior scorer in the league in Al Jefferson (58% of shots within nine feet of the rim, a ridiculously high .96 points per possession on post-up plays with a very strong sample size, scored on 49% of his post-up plays). We have a banger at the four in Elton Brand who can body up on the baseline or stretch the paint for Jefferson to operate on the low block. Brand is converting on 53% of his spot-up shots (1.09 points per possession) and shoots 46% from 10-15 feet away from the basket.

On the perimeter, we have two unselfish cutters who can play on or off the ball. Both Rip Hamilton and Kawhi Leonard would excel in an offense engineered by the best point guard in the league.

Our entire team is anchored by the premier floor general and distributor in all of basketball. Chris Paul remains far and away the best two-way point guard in the game and the numbers support it. He ranks 8th in the league in isolation plays (1.05 PPP, 49% scoring rate), 24th as the initiator of the pick and roll (.93 PPP, 46% scoring rate), and 27th in the league in spot-up shots (1.15 PPP, 43% scoring rate).

As we also outlined in previous write-ups, Paul has found ways to torture some of the stingiest defenses in basketball. While we concede that there will likely be instances in which a sharp defender like Courtney Lee could stay in front of Paul, the Knicks are kidding themselves if they expect he and Mario Chalmers to obstruct Paul's lane to the basket through the duration of the series. Paul plays the best when it matters the most (highest 4th quarter PER in the league this year) and he will get his and then some in this series.

To counter Paul Pierce on the perimeter, we turn to the stout defense of Leonard, whose length and agility allow him to excel covering various areas of the floor. Leonard's physicality and capacity to hinder post-up plays and spot-up shots defensively, as well as his tenacity and mobility offensively will test Pierce in this series. With that in mind, this is the Finals. If his legs have any juice left in them, Pierce is likely to get his in this series.

Inside, it's not likely Brendan Haywood, Dirk Nowitzki, and Kosta Koufos will hinder Jefferson's production. Most recently, Tim Duncan and the Spurs were unable to do so in this year's postseason. In his last five games against Haywood, Dirk and the real-life Mavs, Jefferson has averaged 22 points and 12 boards on 51% shooting from the field.
Defensively, we will once again burden Brand with the task of checking the opposition's primary interior scorer. Brand anchors the defensive paint as well as any four in the league (0.75 PPP, 37% scoring rate) and while Dirk's mobility presents a challenge for any defender, Brand's combination of physicality, length, and toughness will more than challenge the crafty Nowitzki in these Finals. We can also turn to Kenyon Martin (.82 PPP, 39% scoring rate) off the bench and Leonard to provide Brand with some support in defending Nowitzki.

Our ability to put a clamp on Dirk's offensive output, or at least deliver a serious blow to the efficiency at which he produces, will be absolutely pivotal in the outcome of this series.

To summarize, the Knicks cannot match our proficiency in the following areas:

1. Inside-outside game: The tandem of Paul and Jefferson is as deadly as any that participated in this ReDraft. Jefferson has been a borderline dominant interior scorer throughout his career, despite playing alongside such point guards as Ramon Sessions, Delonte West, Johnny Flynn, Devin Harris, and Sebastian Telfair. On our team, he has Chris Paul to find shots for him.

2. Easy scores: The Knicks are one of the worst rebounding teams to have qualified for the ReDraft playoffs. Outside of Dirk, who is clearly more of a high post big man (evidenced by 13.4 of his 16.7 FGA per game coming from 10-12 feet and beyond), the Knicks have no reliable inside game to speak of. They do not have a quality distributor on the roster. To dictate tempo and score in transition, a team needs to get stops and force turnovers in a halfcourt set. Jefferson and Paul, who would receive the largest percentage of touches in our offense, have superb turnover percentages. In short, the Knicks have virtually no reliable source of easy baskets. We have several (Paul's distribution, superior rebounding at both ends, our ability to get stops and force turnovers, higher turnover rates for Pierce and Dirk, etc.)

3. Defense: As the old adage goes, defense wins championships. The Knicks rely on the supposedly defensive-minded Haywood to protect the paint, but Jefferson is as good a shot-blocker and allows a lower scoring rate on post-up plays (40% vs. 42%) and PnR plays (44% vs. 50%). Elton Brand, who anchors our defense, protects the paint as well as any four in the league. He ranks in the top fifteen in the league defending post-up and PnR plays, allowing a score on just 33% of those instances (on 33% shooting). On the perimeter, we can lean on a game-changer in Paul who surrenders a score on only 38% of PnR plays (.81 PPP) he covers and an even lower 33% on isolation plays (.67 PPP).

We reiterate that we hold the Knicks GMs and their roster in the highest respect. A combination of favorable match-ups, superior defense, our potent inside-outside game offensively, ability to score easy baskets, and homecourt advantage (just kidding) will be too much for New York in this series.

KnicksorBust
05-17-2012, 07:50 PM
Both teams are deserving of making it to the Finals. Congrats to both GMs. To me this came down to a few simple things:

1. Brand/Kenyon are a great defensive duo to put on Dirk.
2. Pierce is clearly declining.
3. The Knicks won't get enough production from the center position.

Spurs.

roshan3ai
05-17-2012, 07:52 PM
Can this get stickied? It is the finals ...


And who does have HCA?

greg_ory_2005
05-17-2012, 07:54 PM
Finally, after all that drama, the finals are here! Should be a very good matchup.

mightybosstone
05-17-2012, 08:21 PM
Both squads are pretty good, not great, defensive teams with pretty mediocre benches, so this thing comes down to offense for me. While Paul and Jefferson would be a deadly combination, I just don't trust Jefferson as a clutch scorer. Also, I like Chalmers and Lee a little more than Rip and Brand as No. 3 and No. 4 scorers and I still think the Knicks are the most dangerous 3-point shooting team in the re-draft.

I don't buy KOB's arguments that Pierce is to old or that the Knicks won't get enough out of the center position. If Pierce doesn't go off in game two against Atlanta, Boston doesn't win that series, and if center was so invaluable, then why are the Heat and Thunder the two favorites to make the NBA Finals this year starting Joel Anthony and Kendrick Perkins?

If these playoffs have told us anything so far it's "when scoring is tough, who can absolutely manufacture you points in a pinch. The Spurs have one guy, and the Knicks have two. I'll take the Knicks in seven.

Catfish1314
05-17-2012, 08:31 PM
and if center was so invaluable, then why are the Heat and Thunder the two favorites to make the NBA Finals this year starting Joel Anthony and Kendrick Perkins?

Well. You have seen the rest of their rosters right?

It'sMyTime
05-17-2012, 08:48 PM
I like the mix of offense and defense the Spurs have. AJ and CP3 will be able to carry the offensive load, especially since Paul will be able to get Brand and Hamilton open jumpers. Spurs in 6.

Corey
05-17-2012, 09:15 PM
KoB PMed me to remind me to vote.

He should be banned from all future PSD games.

That is all.




:love:

KnicksorBust
05-17-2012, 09:20 PM
KoB PMed me to remind me to vote.

He should be banned from all future PSD games.

That is all.




:love:

****. :laugh: In fairness, in the same PM I implied Baller should stay the hell away. So that balances it.

KnicksorBust
05-17-2012, 09:35 PM
Both squads are pretty good, not great, defensive teams with pretty mediocre benches, so this thing comes down to offense for me. While Paul and Jefferson would be a deadly combination, I just don't trust Jefferson as a clutch scorer. Also, I like Chalmers and Lee a little more than Rip and Brand as No. 3 and No. 4 scorers and I still think the Knicks are the most dangerous 3-point shooting team in the re-draft.

Stopping the offensive comparison at 4 isn't a fair here because all 5 Spurs starters are capable of producing points in the teens while the Knicks are playing 4 on 5 offensively. Haywood gives little to nothing on that end of the floor while Kwahi Leonard was a highly effecient scorer who has scored more points in two separate playoff games (17 points Game 2 vs. Utah and 16 points in Game 1 vs. LAC) than Haywood and Koufos combined (14 points in 7 games).




I don't buy KOB's arguments that Pierce is to old or that the Knicks won't get enough out of the center position. If Pierce doesn't go off in game two against Atlanta, Boston doesn't win that series, and if center was so invaluable, then why are the Heat and Thunder the two favorites to make the NBA Finals this year starting Joel Anthony and Kendrick Perkins?

The Heat have the best player in the league.
The Thunder have the 2nd best player in the league.

Isn't that enough? Perkins also has Ibaka and Collison. That frontcourt crushes Haywood-Koufos so let's leave that comparison at home. The Heat had Bosh/Haslem starting and now that it's down to guys like Anthony-Turiaf the Heat are no longer such a big favorite. Hell, look at the game Hibbert is having tonight against this undersized Heat team. And Al Jefferson is more polished in the post than Hibbert. Plus he has a legit PG for the first time in his career. He'll only get better playing with Paul.




If these playoffs have told us anything so far it's "when scoring is tough, who can absolutely manufacture you points in a pinch. The Spurs have one guy, and the Knicks have two. I'll take the Knicks in seven.



Would you rather have two clutch players or the one clutch player who was the best in the league this season?

Corey
05-17-2012, 09:41 PM
In fairness, in the same PM I implied Baller should stay the hell away. So that balances it.
Touche. Ban revoked.

roshan3ai
05-17-2012, 09:50 PM
Mario Chalmers beasted today. Vote Knicks. :)

Catfish1314
05-17-2012, 09:58 PM
Kawhi Leonard beasted the other day. Go Spurs go :)

mightybosstone
05-17-2012, 10:00 PM
Stopping the offensive comparison at 4 isn't a fair here because all 5 Spurs starters are capable of producing points in the teens while the Knicks are playing 4 on 5 offensively. Haywood gives little to nothing on that end of the floor while Kwahi Leonard was a highly effecient scorer who has scored more points in two separate playoff games (17 points Game 2 vs. Utah and 16 points in Game 1 vs. LAC) than Haywood and Koufos combined (14 points in 7 games).
If you're going to make that argument, then why not count Delonte West's impact? He's a very solid 6th man who can provide offense off the bench. And I'd still rather have their starting five offensively than the Spurs' starting five.


The Heat have the best player in the league.
The Thunder have the 2nd best player in the league.
And this Knicks team has two top 20 players and a guaranteed top 10 guy who are both Finals MVPs and guaranteed first ballot Hall of Famers. What's your point?


Isn't that enough? Perkins also has Ibaka and Collison. That frontcourt crushes Haywood-Koufos so let's leave that comparison at home. The Heat had Bosh/Haslem starting and now that it's down to guys like Anthony-Turiaf the Heat are no longer such a big favorite. Hell, look at the game Hibbert is having tonight against this undersized Heat team. And Al Jefferson is more polished in the post than Hibbert. Plus he has a legit PG for the first time in his career. He'll only get better playing with Paul.
Haywood and Koufus are better options defensively at center than Anthony/Turiaf/Pittman.


Would you rather have two clutch players or the one clutch player who was the best in the league this season?
Two. Because if you can stop the one or he can't get going late in games then you're screwed. But if you've got two, your twice as likely to hit the game winner or have a go-to guy thriving late in games. And Paul is a great clutch player, but Pierce and Dirk are also two of the most clutch postseason guys of the last 3-4 years.

Catfish1314
05-17-2012, 10:29 PM
Two. Because if you can stop the one or he can't get going late in games then you're screwed. But if you've got two, your twice as likely to hit the game winner or have a go-to guy thriving late in games. And Paul is a great clutch player, but Pierce and Dirk are also two of the most clutch postseason guys of the last 3-4 years.

Are you pretending Jefferson isn't on the court or are you just not fond of him?

Either way, it's clear he's not on the same tier as Paul or Dirk. But in a series in which he's drawn such a favorable match-up (Haywood logs just a few more MPG than our back-up center does for the Mavs and Mahinmi is nearly as productive as he is), it's hardly farfetched to suggest his production would match or exceed Pierce's in this series. Especially when you consider he has Paul to make the game easier for him.

KnicksorBust
05-17-2012, 10:40 PM
If you're going to make that argument, then why not count Delonte West's impact? He's a very solid 6th man who can provide offense off the bench. And I'd still rather have their starting five offensively than the Spurs' starting five.

How do you see the Knicks as better offensively when they are only starting 5 offensive threats vs. the Spurs 5 offensive threats? I agree West is a viable option at 6th man but realistically we won't see him on the floor in place of Brendan Haywood at end of games.


And this Knicks team has two top 20 players and a guaranteed top 10 guy who are both Finals MVPs and guaranteed first ballot Hall of Famers. What's your point?


You asked how a team could not have a center and be a top contender. It's because they have the two best players in the league. That doesn't apply here. You really want to compare Westbrook/Harden/Durant and LeBron/Wade/Bosh to Pierce/Dirk? You'll lose that argument.


Haywood and Koufus are better options defensively at center than Anthony/Turiaf/Pittman.

And the Heat are paying for it. That also doesn't mean they'll be able to contain Al Jefferson. Haywood still contributes nothing offensively and Koufos doesn't even get on the floor for the Jazz so claiming he'll have an impact on Jefferson is absurd.



Two. Because if you can stop the one or he can't get going late in games then you're screwed. But if you've got two, your twice as likely to hit the game winner or have a go-to guy thriving late in games. And Paul is a great clutch player, but Pierce and Dirk are also two of the most clutch postseason guys of the last 3-4 years.

As a math teacher, I'd love to know the calculations that helped you come up with that one. :laugh: I'm kidding.

I'd be really curious to see how the Knicks would handle end of game situations actually. Pierce and Dirk like to operate in the mid-range type area on the floor. They wouldn't be much of a pick and roll combo either. P&R screener made up only 12% of Dirk's shots this season and he shot a meager 40% in those situations.

mightybosstone
05-17-2012, 11:00 PM
How do you see the Knicks as better offensively when they are only starting 5 offensive threats vs. the Spurs 5 offensive threats? I agree West is a viable option at 6th man but realistically we won't see him on the floor in place of Brendan Haywood at end of games.
If you're doing it right, you don't need five good offensive players on the floor at the end of games. You need one or two great ones and a couple of other guys who can hit open looks. New York has that.


You asked how a team could not have a center and be a top contender. It's because they have the two best players in the league. That doesn't apply here. You really want to compare Westbrook/Harden/Durant and LeBron/Wade/Bosh to Pierce/Dirk? You'll lose that argument.
In this re-draft game? Yeah, I do. Consider that NO team is anywhere close to the talent level of those teams in real life and Pierce/Dirk might as well be Westbrook/Durant.


And the Heat are paying for it. That also doesn't mean they'll be able to contain Al Jefferson. Haywood still contributes nothing offensively and Koufos doesn't even get on the floor for the Jazz so claiming he'll have an impact on Jefferson is absurd.
The Heat aren't paying for it because they have no offensive center. They're paying for it because their offensive PF got hurt. If Bosh is playing, you honestly think this is even a series right now? The Heat blew them out in game one for a reason...


As a math teacher, I'd love to know the calculations that helped you come up with that one. :laugh: I'm kidding.
It's correct when you think about it. If you've got two elite clutch shooters on the same roster, you're twice as likely to get the look you want on the last play. Use the Lakers game last night as an example. The Thunder made it impossible for Kobe to get an open look and instead had to settle for a corner three, which Blake obviously missed.

If you've got two options to take that shot, you're twice as likely to get the guy open for the shot you're looking for.


I'd be really curious to see how the Knicks would handle end of game situations actually. Pierce and Dirk like to operate in the mid-range type area on the floor. They wouldn't be much of a pick and roll combo either. P&R screener made up only 12% of Dirk's shots this season and he shot a meager 40% in those situations.
I think there would be a lot of penetrating and dishing to outside shooters, a lot of screens and a lot of isolation. Look at most of the clutch shooters in the league and you don't necessarily see a lot of pick and roll. There's a lot more isolation and screen setting.

Ebbs
05-18-2012, 07:19 AM
**** this is tough. I'll say Knicks in 7.

Greet
05-18-2012, 10:11 AM
I've been calling the Spurs the best team in the mock for a while, it's them.

mightybosstone
05-18-2012, 10:48 AM
I can't believe this isn't closer. I'm clearly in the minority in this one, mainly because I don't trust Al Jefferson in an NBA Finals to be a reliable No. 2, but I didn't think I was THAT much in the minority. That's not to say that I don't think the Spurs are a great team. They are the most well constructed team in the re-draft, but the Knicks have the best 1-2 punch are are also extremely well built. I just find it extremely hard to believe that a team with both Dirk and Pierce would lose in an NBA Finals.

KnicksorBust
05-18-2012, 02:35 PM
If you're doing it right, you don't need five good offensive players on the floor at the end of games. You need one or two great ones and a couple of other guys who can hit open looks. New York has that. .

Tyson Chandler is miles better as a screener, cutter, and finisher than Haywood.




In this re-draft game? Yeah, I do. Consider that NO team is anywhere close to the talent level of those teams in real life and Pierce/Dirk might as well be Westbrook/Durant. .

But if redraft teams don't have "anywhere close to the talent level" of real teams then it's not fair to use considerably more talented team as a comparison to prove a less talented team would win.

It's like comparing apples and oranges... ;)



The Heat aren't paying for it because they have no offensive center. They're paying for it because their offensive PF got hurt. If Bosh is playing, you honestly think this is even a series right now? The Heat blew them out in game one for a reason....

The Heat are playing 5 on 4 offensively and are only scoring 75 ppg in the last two games without Bosh. How can you say having no offense from a center is a non-issue?




It's correct when you think about it. If you've got two elite clutch shooters on the same roster, you're twice as likely to get the look you want on the last play. Use the Lakers game last night as an example. The Thunder made it impossible for Kobe to get an open look and instead had to settle for a corner three, which Blake obviously missed.

If you've got two options to take that shot, you're twice as likely to get the guy open for the shot you're looking for. .

Your rough estimation is still off but at least you are no longer claiming you're twice as likely to make a game winner. That made it sound like Pierce/Dirk give the Knicks a 90% chance of hitting the game-winning shot. :laugh:



I think there would be a lot of penetrating and dishing to outside shooters, a lot of screens and a lot of isolation. Look at most of the clutch shooters in the league and you don't necessarily see a lot of pick and roll. There's a lot more isolation and screen setting.

So you iso Dirk and run Pierce off a screen? Where's Pierce going to catch? Dirk's not going to iso from the top of the key.

mightybosstone
05-18-2012, 02:55 PM
Tyson Chandler is miles better as a screener, cutter, and finisher than Haywood.
This one confused me. At what point did I argue this?


But if redraft teams don't have "anywhere close to the talent level" of real teams then it's not fair to use considerably more talented team as a comparison to prove a less talented team would win.
The teams with more talent generally beat the teams with less talent. We could have drafted with 60 teams instead of 30, completely diluting the talent pool, but that logic would still apply.


The Heat are playing 5 on 4 offensively and are only scoring 75 ppg in the last two games without Bosh. How can you say having no offense from a center is a non-issue?
The Heat aren't playing 5 on 4 offensively, last night they were playing 5 on 2. Nobody outside of Chalmers or Lebron did anything and Wade was just atrocious. This Knicks team doesn't have 3 holes on offense, it has one.


Your rough estimation is still off but at least you are no longer claiming you're twice as likely to make a game winner. That made it sound like Pierce/Dirk give the Knicks a 90% chance of hitting the game-winning shot. :laugh:
Well, I'm not talking in terms of an actual equation here, dude. I'm talking in generalities. If you have two guys who can hit big shots late in games, you're far more likely to get an open look and hit that shot. Maybe it's not twice as likely, but it would be a pretty significant improvement.


So you iso Dirk and run Pierce off a screen? Where's Pierce going to catch? Dirk's not going to iso from the top of the key.
I'm not calling the plays. I'm simply making a point. How it would play out in the final moments would depend on a lot of things... How much time is left on the clock? Did they bring the ball up or is it an in-bounds play? Who has the ball in their hands once it's in play?

Sadds The Gr8
05-18-2012, 03:17 PM
Wow big blowout. I thought itd be close.

roshan3ai
05-18-2012, 03:28 PM
Finals losses in two straight PSD games :sigh:

Chacarron
05-18-2012, 03:51 PM
There is still time rosh, voting does not end until Sunday.

Catfish1314
05-18-2012, 03:55 PM
I'm floored.

DR_1
05-18-2012, 04:09 PM
Spurs. Knicks just don't have enough good size outside of Dirk.

KnicksorBust
05-18-2012, 05:07 PM
This one confused me. At what point did I argue this??

When you said "New York" I thought of the real life Knicks. And if I just randomly want to throw Tyson Chandler comments out there then I'm going to do that.


The teams with more talent generally beat the teams with less talent. We could have drafted with 60 teams instead of 30, completely diluting the talent pool, but that logic would still apply. ?

It's still a stretch. Especially considering the two teams that you referenced (Heat/Thunder) haven't even won the chip. How do they prove anything?



The Heat aren't playing 5 on 4 offensively, last night they were playing 5 on 2. Nobody outside of Chalmers or Lebron did anything and Wade was just atrocious. This Knicks team doesn't have 3 holes on offense, it has one. ?

And the Spurs have 0. That's an advantage.


Well, I'm not talking in terms of an actual equation here, dude. I'm talking in generalities. If you have two guys who can hit big shots late in games, you're far more likely to get an open look and hit that shot. Maybe it's not twice as likely, but it would be a pretty significant improvement. ?

I'm not calling the plays. I'm simply making a point. How it would play out in the final moments would depend on a lot of things... How much time is left on the clock? Did they bring the ball up or is it an in-bounds play? Who has the ball in their hands once it's in play?

Maybe it's significant when you have guys Kobe/Shaq who operate on different areas of the court. Pierce/Dirk both like the left mid-range area.

John Walls Era
05-18-2012, 05:53 PM
Spurs aren't even that good. Just better than the Knicks.

Catfish1314
05-18-2012, 06:25 PM
Spurs aren't even that good. Just better than the Knicks.

Of the three prior, only the Mavs match-up was close. Still double digit vote difference. Parity I suppose.

roshan3ai
05-18-2012, 08:49 PM
Straight up demolition

KnicksorBust
05-19-2012, 10:33 AM
Bump.





















:laugh:

roshan3ai
05-19-2012, 10:42 AM
**** you :pity:

29$JerZ
05-19-2012, 10:44 AM
http://www.parkerliveonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/sweeping.gif

I'm surprised the votes are that lop-sided.

KnicksorBust
05-19-2012, 11:39 AM
**** you :pity:

:laugh: Poor Rosh. The Dirk Nowitzki of Redrafts. You're too good at these to not win eventually. Your time will come. :)

Catfish1314
05-19-2012, 12:46 PM
Still pretty shocked by this turnout, but we'll take it. Obviously this series would be closer in real life.

2-1 with Chris Paul now assuming this lead holds. It can be done.

Ebbs
05-19-2012, 07:43 PM
:laugh: Poor Rosh. The Dirk Nowitzki of Redrafts. You're too good at these to not win eventually. Your time will come. :)

Dirk has won a ring . . . Not a shot at you rosh lol.

PocketKings
05-19-2012, 07:48 PM
Congrats to Catfish and Chac. They've built one hell of a team obviously seeing that they won it all.

They built a marvelous team around CP3 and they accomplished a task that is EXTREMELY difficult to do in these games and build around a PG.


Great job CF and Chac. 2nd championship game I've lost in recently. Blah.

Rosh, we'll have to work our magic in the NBA Mock to try and get that title !

Catfish1314
05-19-2012, 08:45 PM
Congrats to you guys as well. You built a great team :)

greg_ory_2005
05-19-2012, 11:12 PM
The Spurs mean business!

unleashthebeast
05-19-2012, 11:22 PM
Jamal lost to me 2 straight years in the 2nd round

I lose 2 straight years in the ECF

Rosh loses 2 straight years in the finals

What is this world coming to? :ohno:

Chacarron
05-19-2012, 11:26 PM
Jamal lost to me 2 straight years in the 2nd round

I lose 2 straight years in the ECF

Rosh loses 2 straight years in the finals

What is this world coming to? :ohno:

Does this mean I'm going to win the mock to make it 2 in a row? If so, you are in luck sir. :)

Giannis94
05-20-2012, 12:16 AM
What drama happend

KnicksorBust
05-20-2012, 04:40 PM
Dirk has won a ring . . . Not a shot at you rosh lol.

That's why I thought it was appropriate and actually meant it as a compliment. :)

I think Rosh is very strong at these games and like Dirk will overcome these close disappointments and eventually put it all together for a big win.

roshan3ai
05-20-2012, 06:30 PM
That's why I thought it was appropriate and actually meant it as a compliment. :)

I think Rosh is very strong at these games and like Dirk will overcome these close disappointments and eventually put it all together for a big win.
Being compared to Dirk is always a compliment. Thanks. :)

Raps18-19 Champ
05-20-2012, 06:55 PM
Dirk? He's more like Lebron.

He'll only win when he teams up with someone good. (Oh snap, I took a cheap shot at his former co-GM's.

roshan3ai
05-20-2012, 07:26 PM
Dirk? He's more like Lebron.

He'll only win when he teams up with someone good. (Oh snap, I took a cheap shot at his former co-GM's.

I played solo when I got to the Finals in the All Time. I had a great co in PK this year though.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-20-2012, 07:30 PM
Sorry Rosh but had to go with the Spurs. I've liked them since the beginning and I like their mix of offense and defense. CP3 and Jefferson have nice mismatches while Brand is a great defender at least capable of slowing Dirk down a bit (maybe not stopping him but slowing him). Kawhi on Pierce is a mismatch for Pierce but Kawhi does have those long arms and the athleticism to make it difficult on Pierce. Granted, Chalmers is also a good defensive PG as you pointed out in your write-up but I don't see him slowing down CP3 at all. As for Center, not convinced that Haywood can play enough minutes and still don't like the matchup vs. Al.

But it'd be a great series.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-20-2012, 08:32 PM
I played solo when I got to the Finals in the All Time. I had a great co in PK this year though.

Exactly why you lost. You were either by yourself or you were with Mo Williams.

roshan3ai
05-20-2012, 08:38 PM
Exactly why you lost. You were either by yourself or you were with Mo Williams.
:laugh2: I see. PK's more like DWade though :)

Raps18-19 Champ
05-20-2012, 08:50 PM
:laugh2: I see. PK's more like DWade though :)

Game 3 Dwyane Wade.

unleashthebeast
05-20-2012, 11:01 PM
Does this mean I'm going to win the mock to make it 2 in a row? If so, you are in luck sir. :)

:hi5: helllllllllllllllllllllz yeah

greg_ory_2005
05-21-2012, 12:57 AM
Congrats Spurs!