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View Full Version : If MJ played in today's NBA



Longhornfan1234
05-14-2012, 02:09 AM
How many points would he average for the season?



30-39, 40-49, 50-59?




I think Jordan would average at least 40ppg...

Raps08-09 Champ
05-14-2012, 02:10 AM
MJ's too old.

thekmp211
05-14-2012, 02:10 AM
i think he could have done 40 for one or two seasons, sure.

Longhornfan1234
05-14-2012, 02:10 AM
MJ's too old.

Haha prime MJ.

FreakaNashur
05-14-2012, 02:15 AM
Let the legend be a legend, sheez.

jam
05-14-2012, 02:16 AM
Players now are bigger and stronger, due in large part to PED's. However, defensive rules largely negate this advantage. In addition, player fundamentals continue to erode, as college basketball stints are typically very short.

Jordan would still be the best and smartest player on the floor every night, but would not have the overwhelming physical advantage he enjoyed every game during his "prime" which was actually his entire career (pre-wizards).

Bruno
05-14-2012, 02:16 AM
with zone defense and a slower pace (points per 100 possessions)?

87-91 MJ would have averaged between 34-38, no more.

In 1987 the average pace in the NBA was 100.8. in 2012 it was 91.3. even if you think MJ would have thrived against zone/no hand-check, it still wouldn't be enough to make up for the lack of possessions per game experienced in a 2012 season(average pace of 91.3), compared to a 1987 season (100.8), where MJ averaged his highest ppg, 37.1 on a TS% of .562.

thekmp211
05-14-2012, 02:21 AM
what about 2011? and 2010?

if the projections translate his numbers to 38, 40 isn't that crazy. its x amount of 40 point games versus 30 point games at the end of the day, and we are talking about a guy who would probably like the idea of going after it if he could. i guess i wouldn't bet against it, put it that way.

bigmac8675
05-14-2012, 02:25 AM
87.4 ppg according to advanced statistics....

Bruno
05-14-2012, 02:29 AM
what about 2011? and 2010?

2011: 92.1
2010: 92.7

1987: 100.8
1992: 96.6 (MJ averaged 30.1 in this season, with this pace).


87.4 ppg according to advanced statistics....

:rimshot:

Chronz
05-14-2012, 02:33 AM
Cmon man 40?

Gators123
05-14-2012, 02:34 AM
32-34 ppg.

MickeyMgl
05-14-2012, 02:38 AM
How many points would he average for the season?



30-39, 40-49, 50-59?




I think Jordan would average at least 40ppg...

Why?

MickeyMgl
05-14-2012, 02:39 AM
25-29 ppg

MickeyMgl
05-14-2012, 02:42 AM
In 1987 the average pace in the NBA was 100.8. in 2012 it was 91.3. even if you think MJ would have thrived against zone/no hand-check, it still wouldn't be enough to make up for the lack of possessions per game experienced in a 2012 season(average pace of 91.3), compared to a 1987 season (100.8), where MJ averaged his highest ppg, 37.1 on a TS% of .562.

On one hand, no hand-check (usually the only rule change people seem to be aware of)...

On the other hand, zone, no isolation (Barkley rule), bigger and more athletic defenders, slower pace, no expansion teams to beat up on, deeper talent pool with the influx of foreign players...

Longhornfan1234
05-14-2012, 02:43 AM
Why?

He averaged 37 points per game in 1986-1987 season against defenses much tougher than any current ones, so if you don't think he would have scored a lot more today, I don't know what to tell you. He probably would have scored 7-10 more points per game off of free throws alone.

naps
05-14-2012, 02:45 AM
MJ used to tear the league apart from 87 to 91/92. That MJ could average 35+ PPG in today's league effortlessly.

And as for handchecking rule, check out the league scoring ladders right after it was implemented. It went up so much all of a sudden for no reason? C'mon now! It's no rocket science. Jordan would simply abuse today's defenders without handchecking.

MJ-BULLS
05-14-2012, 02:50 AM
35 ppg maybe more.

Raph12
05-14-2012, 03:22 AM
He'd be lucky to put up over 35ppg playing only 39mpg (most any superstar plays nowadays) in this slower pace... It's a different league, athleticism is rampant throughout the league and defenses have gotten much more advanced.

b@llhog24
05-14-2012, 03:48 AM
32-34 ppg.

This.

jbeezy
05-14-2012, 03:51 AM
Jordan would rape. I would say over 35ppg

Patman
05-14-2012, 03:59 AM
MJ used to tear the league apart from 87 to 91/92. That MJ could average 35+ PPG in today's league effortlessly.

And as for handchecking rule, check out the league scoring ladders right after it was implemented. It went up so much all of a sudden for no reason? C'mon now! It's no rocket science. Jordan would simply abuse today's defenders without handchecking.


Yeah but Jordan never had to deal with the Zones and defensive schemes he would face now, also the average player seems to be way more athletic then in the early 90's.

He probably would only play 39-40 mins in the regular season, the pace would be so much slower then back in the days. Jordan would have to put alot of effort in there to get over 35 PPG. It's certainly doable but to act like it would be easy for him is totally over the top.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
05-14-2012, 04:12 AM
over 30 a little

MickeyMgl
05-14-2012, 04:13 AM
He averaged 37 points per game in 1986-1987 season against defenses much tougher than any current ones

Based on what? Based on rules changes?



I don't know what to tell you.

Is this your best argument? I'm just asking you to explain your point of view.

MickeyMgl
05-14-2012, 04:22 AM
MJ used to tear the league apart from 87 to 91/92. That MJ could average 35+ PPG in today's league effortlessly.

And as for handchecking rule, check out the league scoring ladders right after it was implemented. It went up so much all of a sudden for no reason?

I checked the scoring leaders around the years of the rule change, and see no significant difference, except that there happened to be a one-year dip the year right before the rule change, in 03-04.

john545455
05-14-2012, 04:23 AM
Idk I think today's players play in a much larger talent pool. There is a reason why the dream team was the dream team. Now all of a sudden this London Olympics Spain will boast the Gasol brother, Fernandez, Calerone, and Rubio would of played to. Tony Parker, Steve Nash, Dirk Nowitski, and the list goes on and on.

He probably would of scored less. Tony Kukoc was basically the only decent International player of his time.

smiddy012
05-14-2012, 04:55 AM
Between the hand-checking rule and the flopping of today, lets not kid ourselves, defenses had more of an advantage in MJs day.

BUT, as aforementioned, the pace was faster back then. Guys today are more athletic, BUT lacking in fundamentals relatively speaking. I won't go as far as to say that guys were more talented in MJ's day, I might say that overall the league was more talented but today it's surely more top-heavy talent wise.

That said, you put MJ on a crappy team in today's league, where he has no second guy to go to, nobody else to trust, I could see him nearing 40 PPG. You put him with a another top 20 player, he would be closer to 30.

Oh, and no doubt he gets to the line a lot more in today's game the way refs call touch fouls.

LakersMaster24
05-14-2012, 05:01 AM
Bruno made a solid point.

MJ wouldnt average more than he did back then.

So I say something like 34-35ppg.

Patman
05-14-2012, 05:12 AM
Between the hand-checking rule and the flopping of today, lets not kid ourselves, defenses had more of an advantage in MJs day.

BUT, as aforementioned, the pace was faster back then. Guys today are more athletic, BUT lacking in fundamentals relatively speaking. I won't go as far as to say that guys were more talented in MJ's day, I might say that overall the league was more talented but today it's surely more top-heavy talent wise.

That said, you put MJ on a crappy team in today's league, we're he has no second guy to go to, nobody else to trust, I could see him nearing 40 PPG. You put him with a another top 20 player, he would be closer to 30.

Oh, and no doubt he gets to the line a lot more in today's game the way refs call touch fouls.

If players today lack in fundamentals overall i would expect the overall FT% to be way lower then it was in the early 90's, I look at FT% because it isn't effected by rule changes and is always the same setting. But the difference is negligible.

But people will always believe that the defense was better back in the day and players were better, even though they probably just liked it because the pace was so much higher.

LakersIn5
05-14-2012, 06:48 AM
depends. if he plays for the bobcats then 60ppg. if with the heat then 30

meloman1592
05-14-2012, 06:59 AM
With the new touch fouls, Jordan would easily average 37

theheatles
05-14-2012, 07:04 AM
too many variables to consider, but Jordans "greatness" is partially a sham

Swashcuff
05-14-2012, 08:00 AM
What I don't like about these sorts of comparisons is that people never tend to use context. We always like to how much the league has changed, in terms of rules, pace, defense, athleticism, etc etc. Well don't you guys think that MJ would change as well?

Don't you think he'd be more athletic, that he'd find a way to counter these new rules and the defensive schemes which IMO doesn't phase MJ in the least bit he's great enough to adapt to whatever any defense throws at him. The very same advances that today's players have benefited from MJ will also. The ticky tacky fouls, no hand checking, a shortage in elite perimeter defenders as compared to when MJ played etc.

The only argument that's plausible through eras IMO is pace that's the one thing that though once a player adapts to he wouldn't be able to change the fact that his team would have less possessions in which to score.

How can we take a player from an older era and place him in a newer with the expectation that he wouldn't benefit from the advances that the players in that era have themselves benefited from? He's going to. He would be ahead of the pack in terms of athletic ability (MJ was a workhouse and would want to be considered the best in every aspect of his game), he would beat the zone D (I mean if Tracy McGrady could figure it out what do you guys expect MJ to do?), he'd plain and simple figure out the most effective way of scoring.

As for the actual answer to the troll's question I'd say anywhere between 32-36 ppg comfortably.

Swashcuff
05-14-2012, 08:01 AM
too many variables to consider, but Jordans "greatness" is partially a sham

I'd love to hear how it's partially a sham.

king2218
05-14-2012, 08:23 AM
Jordan would average over 30ppg every season, possible even 40ppg. Jordan was the best at drawing fouls due to fundamentals. With the game being easier for perimeter players now & having the defensive 3 second violation rule, Jordan would have a field day with these players. People who are saying Jordan would be at a physical disadvantage has never watched him play. He was great because of his fundamentals & that deadly mid range shot. Whoever thinks he can't average 40 points should youtube his highlights and games. Watch the entire 'flu game' and see why he's regarded as GOAT.

Patman
05-14-2012, 08:27 AM
What I don't like about these sorts of comparisons is that people never tend to use context. We always like to how much the league has changed, in terms of rules, pace, defense, athleticism, etc etc. Well don't you guys think that MJ would change as well?

Don't you think he'd be more athletic, that he'd find a way to counter these new rules and the defensive schemes which IMO doesn't phase MJ in the least bit he's great enough to adapt to whatever any defense throws at him. The very same advances that today's players have benefited from MJ will also. The ticky tacky fouls, no hand checking, a shortage in elite perimeter defenders as compared to when MJ played etc.

The only argument that's plausible through eras IMO is pace that's the one thing that though once a player adapts to he wouldn't be able to change the fact that his team would have less possessions in which to score.

How can we take a player from an older era and place him in a newer with the expectation that he wouldn't benefit from the advances that the players in that era have themselves benefited from? He's going to. He would be ahead of the pack in terms of athletic ability (MJ was a workhouse and would want to be considered the best in every aspect of his game), he would beat the zone D (I mean if Tracy McGrady could figure it out what do you guys expect MJ to do?), he'd plain and simple figure out the most effective way of scoring.

As for the actual answer to the troll's question I'd say anywhere between 32-36 ppg comfortably.

Then i don't want to hear anything about players not beeing able to play in the 90's or 80's because you would have to assume that they adjust to the different rules.

Surely Jordan would adjust his game, especially early jordan would have to. I'm not so sure that MJ would be that much more athletic, because I honestly think that in the Top End the 90's were already really good, just overall the players got more Athletic.

I think 32-36 would be possible if he plays over 40 mins a game, but I wouldn't say it would be easy.

thekmp211
05-14-2012, 08:28 AM
which team had the highest possession rate in the league this year? were they all hovering in that lower range? i doubt it. project his numbers onto a high tempo offense.

swashcuff basically made the case i would, but i love how anyone here is trying to answer this question with certainty. honestly guys.

Patman
05-14-2012, 08:43 AM
which team had the highest possession rate in the league this year? were they all hovering in that lower range? i doubt it. project his numbers onto a high tempo offense.

swashcuff basically made the case i would, but i love how anyone here is trying to answer this question with certainty. honestly guys.

The fastest were the Sacto kings with 94.7 this still isn't the pace the early jordan Bulls played at. You would have to place Jordan on the SSOL suns to get him around the same pace as he played with the Early MJ Bulls. The game is just slower no matter how you spin it. The Bulls were a relatively slow team in their Era and still played a similar pace as the SSOL Suns.

Swashcuff
05-14-2012, 08:53 AM
Then i don't want to hear anything about players not beeing able to play in the 90's or 80's because you would have to assume that they adjust to the different rules.

I always say the very same. However it depends on the player. Jordan is the elite of the elite we're talking about here. Not Monta Ellis or some player of that sort. They'd also face the drawbacks of playing in those days as well.


Surely Jordan would adjust his game, especially early jordan would have to. I'm not so sure that MJ would be that much more athletic, because I honestly think that in the Top End the 90's were already really good, just overall the players got more Athletic.

I think 32-36 would be possible if he plays over 40 mins a game, but I wouldn't say it would be easy.

I honestly don't see this in the very least. At his peak Kobe averaged over 29 per 36 minutes once in his career. Jordan has done that 8 times (not including his Sophomore season when he played just 18 games). Jordan would certainly be able to get himself 32-36 ppg if he played 38-40 mpg in today's game.

His superior efficiency, skill and scorers IQ than any player today would make him that much better that much better than anyone else on the floor with him.

thekmp211
05-14-2012, 08:59 AM
is MJ playing against the same competition with this style of play, or are we plopping him into the league as is? i guess i think he'd have a shot against the current talent crop in the league.

BALLER R
05-14-2012, 09:18 AM
He would get 20 points from free throws alone. Jordan got some of the dirtiest hits and they weren't called fouls. Do that in the league now and your getting a flagrant tech.

BklynKnicks3
05-14-2012, 09:19 AM
if he played today he wouldnt stand out as much alot of talent at the 2 or 3. He would avg 25

king4day
05-14-2012, 09:31 AM
with zone defense and a slower pace (points per 100 possessions)?

87-91 MJ would have averaged between 34-38, no more.

In 1987 the average pace in the NBA was 100.8. in 2012 it was 91.3. even if you think MJ would have thrived against zone/no hand-check, it still wouldn't be enough to make up for the lack of possessions per game experienced in a 2012 season(average pace of 91.3), compared to a 1987 season (100.8), where MJ averaged his highest ppg, 37.1 on a TS% of .562.

Very nice breakdown.

I wonder how he'd have faired playing a run and gun style. Suns always averaged more possessions.

albertc86
05-14-2012, 09:33 AM
For argument sake... You made no mention of Pippen being tethered to Jordan's return which is a huge difference maker. People don't give Pippen the credit he deserves for taking a large burden off of Jordan on the defensive end. With that said, and no disrespect to the mid-90's, but Jordan wasn't playing the caliber of SG's and SF's that are in the NBA today. He also wouldn't be getting the star treatment that he did then in today's NBA because he'd be just another great player on the floor. I like this argument because for the most part most of the superstars are still in their prime except for Kobe, Carter, McGrady, etc...

Jordan would have a difficult time guarding the likes of Wade, LeBron, Kobe, Carmelo, Durant, and probably the stronger PG's in the NBA out of necessity on a nightly basis. He'd score 30 ppg no doubt but you'd see these players dropping points on him too.

knicks4life33
05-14-2012, 09:58 AM
i can see jordan averaging 37 points per game and 1 season 40 . You guys have to be crazy if you dont think so. when he played they didnt call all these tiny ticky tack fouls like they do now and if they did he would of averaged alot higher then. A flagarant foul these days is a normal tough foul back in his day and its a joke. He could easily do 37-40 a season . He would get even more calls this era then the last if there goin call all these small calls now that they didnt in his era .

ne3xchamps
05-14-2012, 10:03 AM
I would say 35-40. Mj would be more impossible to stop then in his hay days IMO.

Patman
05-14-2012, 10:10 AM
I always say the very same. However it depends on the player. Jordan is the elite of the elite we're talking about here. Not Monta Ellis or some player of that sort. They'd also face the drawbacks of playing in those days as well.



I honestly don't see this in the very least. At his peak Kobe averaged over 29 per 36 minutes once in his career. Jordan has done that 8 times (not including his Sophomore season when he played just 18 games). Jordan would certainly be able to get himself 32-36 ppg if he played 38-40 mpg in today's game.

His superior efficiency, skill and scorers IQ than any player today would make him that much better that much better than anyone else on the floor with him.

Again he only scored over 30 per 36 in the era that was much faster then now.

His ORTG wasn't that much better then Lebron's in his best seasons aka pts/100 possesions. So i don't know how much more points he would score then others. Look in the end such things are nearly impossible to predict, and I really find it hard to compare players from different eras because the game changed so much.

KnicksorBust
05-14-2012, 10:23 AM
I'd love to see it because of the differing scales that people have mentioned. He'd get to the foul line more... but he'd have less shots to do it. I'd split the difference and say he's still roughly the same statistical player. If it's possible, he'd be even better of a clutch player.

BklynKnicks3
05-14-2012, 11:10 AM
u people make no sense with the jordan avg 40. Back then scoring around the league was higher as a whole the worst teams in the nba avg like 110 ore more. Now the scoring is down there are alot more atheltic long players to alter ur shots. Back then the only postion that was better was center. Jordans toughest comp was guy liek reggie miller joe dumars, drexler and mitch richmond. Outside of clyde the rest where not elite athletes. If jordan had to go against Kobe,wade,tmac,carter,brandon roy,monta ellis,manu,hardens of the world he would have a much tougher time. Do u people not remember how penny hardaway gave jordan the buisness on many occasions

Ni55anpat
05-14-2012, 11:26 AM
14-16.

AntiG
05-14-2012, 11:26 AM
he probably would have mastered flopping LOL

Patman
05-14-2012, 11:36 AM
he probably would have mastered flopping LOL

A guy who thought about slapping his own Arm/wrist to get calls would certainly master the art of flopping, yeah.

j11430
05-14-2012, 11:40 AM
He got 37 one year. With the way refs call the game now, he could easily add a whopping 3 points per game to that total

JordansBulls
05-14-2012, 12:03 PM
if he played today he wouldnt stand out as much alot of talent at the 2 or 3. He would avg 25

:laugh2:

At this gem.

Hey guy MJ is the only player ever to average over 30 ppg in the season, playoffs and finals for his career and the only player to even average 30+ for a career in the playoffs and is ahead of everyone by at least 4 ppg.

BklynKnicks3
05-14-2012, 12:15 PM
:laugh2:

At this gem.

Hey guy MJ is the only player ever to average over 30 ppg in the season, playoffs and finals for his career and the only player to even average 30+ for a career in the playoffs and is ahead of everyone by at least 4 ppg.

how does that prove he would do it today. His era diffrent. If wilt played today he would be lucky to avg 25 much less 50

BigCityofDreams
05-14-2012, 12:25 PM
too many variables to consider, but Jordans "greatness" is partially a sham

This should be interesting.

hail2skins4life
05-14-2012, 12:38 PM
30ppg. i dont think he would be considered that good if he played today. i also dont think he would get as many rings.

--23--
05-14-2012, 12:47 PM
Prime MJ in this soft era would easily avg 37+ppg

Stinkyoutsider
05-14-2012, 01:15 PM
MJ would probably go between 32 and 38 pts a game but I wouldn't put it past MJ to hit 40. He has the mental toughness and determination needed to do it.

Would be fun to see him in the time of the flop. He could probably get another 6 to 10 points at the line if he chose to flop on a regular basis...

Sactown
05-14-2012, 01:18 PM
You have to account for the behind the scenes parts of defense, teams now have advanced statistics on where players succeed most and struggle the most, on top of that zone defenses are different, and players seem to be more athletic now compared to then.. and then you have to account for pace.. I don't think his numbers would go up

RaiderLakersA's
05-14-2012, 01:22 PM
If it's a mistake to compare different eras, then it's wrong to assume that MJ would do better or worse if he were in his prime today.There are just way too many factors -- which most of you are conveniently forgetting -- that played into Jordan's success. I'm sure there is a forum for presupposition, hypothetical flights of fancy and make believe, but let's try to keep threads like this out of the main one. No good can come of it.

effen5
05-14-2012, 04:09 PM
u people make no sense with the jordan avg 40. Back then scoring around the league was higher as a whole the worst teams in the nba avg like 110 ore more. Now the scoring is down there are alot more atheltic long players to alter ur shots. Back then the only postion that was better was center. Jordans toughest comp was guy liek reggie miller joe dumars, drexler and mitch richmond. Outside of clyde the rest where not elite athletes. If jordan had to go against Kobe,wade,tmac,carter,brandon roy,monta ellis,manu,hardens of the world he would have a much tougher time. Do u people not remember how penny hardaway gave jordan the buisness on many occasions

Are you 14? Jordan played against hall of famers on a nightly basis, there's only a handful of hofers right now

thephoenixson28
05-14-2012, 04:33 PM
Though the game is a lot more soft, it is more advanced. You have 6"10 players shooting and dribbling like a PG. I say he averages a good amount. But IMO nowadays People try so much, that basketball means more than just a sport.

effen5
05-14-2012, 04:37 PM
Jordan could avg high 30s in this era.

mightybosstone
05-14-2012, 04:54 PM
There's a lot of factors involved in this obviously. As other posters have pointed out, you could argue there is more talent in the league today, players are more athletic overall and the pace has slowed down considerably since his era. And you can go ahead and say "star players get calls, so he would get another 5 points along in free throw" but would he really?

Compare 27-year-old MJ to Lebron today. Lebron averages 8.1 FTA per game, while MJ averaged 8.2. His USG% (32.9) is comparable to Lebron's (32.0) and they had identical TS% (.605). The only reason he averaged more points per game (31.5 compared to 27.1) is that he took far more shots per game than Lebron did (22.4 to 18.9).

So when you adjust a bit for pace, even if we gave him a slight edge in terms of FTA per game, he's going to take fewer shots in today's NBA. I don't see anyway in hell he averages more than 30-35 points per game unless his 3pt% improves significantly or he takes 25+ FGA per game (Kobe takes 24.6 and Melo takes 24.8, and Jordan only did that twice in his career).

Raph12
05-14-2012, 04:54 PM
You guys aren't adjusting for pace and less minutes... Also, with the athleticism of the league today and the zone/advanced defenses, the rule changes were made to level the playing field.

Everyone forgets Jordan got star calls back in those days all the time, he'd get anywhere from 7-12FTA/gm each and every season until his decline (Washington); he'd be lucky to put up 35ppg in today's era with anywhere close to the efficiency he had in the 80s/90s.

Redskins10
05-14-2012, 04:56 PM
36 but his team wouldn't do ****

metsbulls1025
05-14-2012, 04:59 PM
You guys aren't adjusting for pace and less minutes... Also, with the athleticism of the league today and the zone/advanced defenses, the rule changes were made to level the playing field.

Everyone forgets Jordan got star calls back in those days all the time, he'd get anywhere from 7-12FTA/gm each and every season until his decline (Washington); he'd be lucky to put up 35ppg in today's era with anywhere close to the efficiency he had in the 80s/90s.

What people don't factor in is if he was to play in this era that would mean he would also be more athletic and he also would have been introduced to the zone and advanced defenses.

SteveNash
05-14-2012, 05:02 PM
Are you 14? Jordan played against hall of famers on a nightly basis, there's only a handful of hofers right now

Jordan never played against a hall of famer, what are you smoking.

Jordan would average around 27 peak, if you put him in similar circumstances.

Hellcrooner
05-14-2012, 05:04 PM
with the way refs bow down to stars? being the ultimate marketing star of history of any sport?

50 a game, 30 from plays 20 from Ft each game.

~Iggy~
05-14-2012, 05:15 PM
Depends on what team he would end up on and how much help he would have from teammates. He would probably average at least 27 PPG and maybe up towards 35 PPG.

adab
05-14-2012, 05:16 PM
If still in his prime, he'd absolutely dominate. He'd probably have even better numbers as he was motivated by being the best.
If he cam back at his current age and ability, he'd only be able to start for a small number of teams and would be pretty rotten at that. On a playoff team, he'd be no better than a fringe player, maybe getting 2 - 3 minutes per game.

LAKERMANIA
05-14-2012, 05:23 PM
I'd say in his prime his numbers wouldn't change... I agree with Bruno's post, there are less possessions per game than when MJ played which means less shots (assuming he involves other players around him) and I do think today's defenders are longer and tougher to score over...

It also depends on how many times he gets to the charity stripe.

mightybosstone
05-14-2012, 05:25 PM
with the way refs bow down to stars? being the ultimate marketing star of history of any sport?

50 a game, 30 from plays 20 from Ft each game.

I'm not sure if you're serious or not, but if you are, this is an extremely misguided comment. Not counting Dwight Howard (for obvious reasons), Love averages the most FTA per game at 8.4. And you're saying he'll not only average 20+, but he'll MAKE 20 per game. That's insane.

And in terms of 30 points from actual shots, that's just ********. In 87, Jordan took an incredible 27.8 FGA per game (2,279 overall for the season, 7th most all time). Even with that many shots, he only averaged about 27 points a night not counting free throws. Doing some calculation, he would have to average 55% from 2s, 35% from 3s and take about 4 a night (which he never did in his entire career) to reach 30 per game. And there isn't a chance in hell he touches those numbers on 28 attempts per game....

rhymeratic
05-14-2012, 05:33 PM
Saying how much MJ would average... you have to take into account him and HIS ENTIRE team that he played around. So lets assume you take him at his PEAK with the 1st 3pt Bulls....

With Pippen and Grant as sidekicks...

Jordan would avg I'd say 35-38ppg.

If its pre championship Jordan, he would have avg 40 easy in this no handchecking/ no dominant Centers league of today.

BALLER71
05-14-2012, 05:38 PM
27-34 like every other star scorer in the league.

MickeyMgl
05-14-2012, 05:46 PM
Jordan would average over 30ppg every season, possible even 40ppg. Jordan was the best at drawing fouls due to fundamentals. With the game being easier for perimeter players now & having the defensive 3 second violation rule, Jordan would have a field day with these players.

OK, so besides ignoring the rules that actually HURT perimeter players and the kind of 1-on-1 isolation that Jordan thrived on, you are actually counting "defensive 3-seconds" (which is actually part of the "zone" rule that actually helps defenses) as something that would help him. Got it.

You know, in Jordan's day, if you were defending off the ball, you couldn't be in the lane OR out of the lane for 3 seconds if you weren't within six feet of an offensive player. Now, the second defender can shadow you as much as he wants without committing to a double team. That's actually HARDER on a perimeter player.



People who are saying Jordan would be at a physical disadvantage has never watched him play. He was great because of his fundamentals & that deadly mid range shot. Whoever thinks he can't average 40 points should youtube his highlights and games. Watch the entire 'flu game' and see why he's regarded as GOAT.

The attempt to dismiss any dissent is very popular among Jordan's fans. I saw him play his entire career. I remember that his best defenders were Joe Dumars, John Starks, and according to Jordan himself, Mitch Richmond. That's 6'3", 6'3", and 6'5". The best wing defenders today are taller than the best ones of two decades ago.

I'm not saying he wouldn't still thrive. I just don't like the whitewashing of all the factors, as if every rule made it easier to score and every change in the opponents could be offset by Jordan himself. Maybe he can wear better quality shoes today, but he can't get taller. He'd still do well, just not to the ridiculous degrees some people are saying in this thread.

JordansBulls
05-14-2012, 05:51 PM
OK, so besides ignoring the rules that actually HURT perimeter players and the kind of 1-on-1 isolation that Jordan thrived on, you are actually counting "defensive 3-seconds" (which is actually part of the "zone" rule that actually helps defenses) as something that would help him. Got it.





Are you blaming Stern for the tough style of play (especially in the 90's), or for gaying up the league starting from 2004-05 onwards?

I certainly don't mind Stern trying to clean things up, but when they come right out and implement rules designed to allow perimeter players to do whatever they want with their "no touch" policy (which leads to an enormous amount of free throws and little defense), then that kind of sucks for teams that actually want to play defense. The only team that has been able to effectively contain these perimeter stars since the rule changes (consistently) are the Spurs and the Celtics.
Here's a good article that talks about how coaches were trying to transition from a contact league to the new "no touch" league that we see today:


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_15_230/ai_n26829194/?tag=content;col1



http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_15_230/ai_n26829194/?tag=content;col1



Referees have been ordered to emphasize what often is called "the no-touching rule." As the league continues its battle to keep scoring up and thuggery down, it is focusing on perimeter contact as never before.

Though team scoring is holding steady, all those trips to the line have resulted in higher averages for players at the top of the scoring charts. For the first time in 24 seasons, three players--Kobe Bryant, Allen Iverson and LeBron James--are likely to average more than 30.0 points for the season. Two years ago, there wasn't a single 30-point scorer. Entering the week, there had been 95 performances of 40 points or more, compared with 67 last season and 41 two seasons ago.

Indeed, the league has created a statistical whirlwind, but there has been a price. The ebb and flow of an 82-game season has added a bit too much ebb, with the continuous whistles creating points for players who are more than capable of creating them for themselves. The aesthetics that result from increased scoring are being negated by all the whistles.

The league's stance is this is nothing new, at least this season. "It's actually been in effect for two years." says NBA senior vice president Stu Jackson. "It was really an outgrowth of the hand check. What evolved is players originally used the hand check in an effort to deter the offensive player or reroute him. And then we saw a real influx of body checks by players in an effort to reroute the offensive player off his path."

On one hand, the no-touch policy has coaches giving the ball to their slashers, which clears the court for either dynamic dunks or frequent free throws. On the other, those same coaches are at their wits' end trying to orchestrate an effective defense.

It is an officiating style that would have turned the smart folks who employed the Jordan Rules into Jordan's fools.

"There is so much stuff being called out on the perimeter," Knicks coach Larry Brown says. "I can't imagine what Michael would have gotten with the hand-check rules the way they're calling it now."

Jordan's former running partner is not so sure he could have reached his own level of success under the current rules. "I'm glad I'm not playing now," Scottie Pippen says. "I wouldn't be a good defensive player."

Even Rothstein, now a Heat assistant coach, is conflicted. Like many who were on Chuck Daly's Pistons staffs in the late '80s, he is consumed with the science of NBA defense. He sees little reason for any player to shoot 20 or 25 free throws in a game. But he appreciates that offense sells and that it's what commissioner David Stern wants and what fans expect in this video-driven era of individual theatrics.

"I understand the nature of the business and who we are and what we are," Rothstein says. "Do I like it? No. But it doesn't matter if 1 like it. There are still very good defenders in this league who do a very good job, who have adjusted to the rules. It used to be you'd get a forearm on and it gave you certain leverage. So you've got to move your feet better. There's no way you can be as good under the current rules."

Rothstein's boss says it is undeniable that the game has changed for today's offensive stars.

"I think guys are just warming up to the whole thing," Heat coach Pat Riley says. "Everybody's starting to realize, 'Hey, I can get a ton here.' So I think this year has really been the first year where the rule is starting to have an impact. We're going to have a 200-point game by a team pretty soon."

BULLSFAN0810
05-14-2012, 05:53 PM
On one hand, no hand-check (usually the only rule change people seem to be aware of)...

On the other hand, zone, no isolation (Barkley rule), bigger and more athletic defenders, slower pace, no expansion teams to beat up on, deeper talent pool with the influx of foreign players...

You guys forget . Mj was either bigger faster stronger or more athletic and even smarter. In todays Nba where players have no game and still strive at the ft (wade, james..and by no game I mean mj is the ideas player and so is tim duncan these are the people I compare them to. Imo mj would put up 60. Of kobe said and proved he can drop 40 whenever, mj can do 15 to 20 points more... And that's a statement that no one can deny.people say its eras, mj hasn't played in a decade or so, the game hadn't changed that much. While people love the stars of today, mj will to win will destroy thm they all, miss fts pass up shots when they are one on one ... Lets just stop, this is turning into a lebron wade rose durant vs Mj amd its not fair, they all pale. And to say payers have gotten bigger faster is crock, if you have no skill you will always suck, ask javell mc gee. The nba as a whole is weaker. P layers leaving school early, and getting to the nba damn near ten years into it, 6 foot 9 can't post or take over consistently, or fast as heck and still shooting bricks as a seasoned vet and we as fans actually think they can fade Mj? Maybe in a generation or two when his legend loses steam and new eyes see the game.but as of now mj can drop 60 if he calls it like kobe still calls out his scores.

MickeyMgl
05-14-2012, 05:56 PM
i can see jordan averaging 37 points per game and 1 season 40 . You guys have to be crazy if you dont think so. when he played they didnt call all these tiny ticky tack fouls like they do now and if they did he would of averaged alot higher then. A flagarant foul these days is a normal tough foul back in his day and its a joke. He could easily do 37-40 a season . He would get even more calls this era then the last if there goin call all these small calls now that they didnt in his era .

So how about the added foul trouble for him? Wouldn't that affect his scoring? He was a fairly physical defender on the perimeter.

Swashcuff
05-14-2012, 05:57 PM
What people don't factor in is if he was to play in this era that would mean he would also be more athletic and he also would have been introduced to the zone and advanced defenses.

No lets not take that into consideration. Let's just take Jordan from his era place him in this era and expect him to be the same exact player.

Swashcuff
05-14-2012, 05:58 PM
So how about the added foul trouble for him? Wouldn't that affect his scoring? He was a fairly physical defender on the perimeter.

How would he have added foul trouble? This makes no sense whatsoever. He would adapt his defensive game to play within the rules of the era in which he played. What don't you guys understand about this?

Swashcuff
05-14-2012, 06:01 PM
What would LeBron James average in today's NBA with Jordan's cerebral scoring mentality and offensive skill set?

That's basically what Jordan would be to today's NBA maybe just not as strong of course. He'd be the cream of the crop in terms of athleticism the most polished offensive game of any perimeter we've ever seen and the rip your heart out and have it for dinner type demeanor when putting the ball in the basket.

lakerboy
05-14-2012, 06:06 PM
If they lose, is everyone going to call him a ballhog too?

I see Jordan averaging 32PPG. There are more touch fouls today, but our defenders are much better than the one he faced before. Jordan played against the Bryon Russell. The best defender of Jordan's generation was Scottie Pippen, and he never had to play against him.

Good luck staying with long athletic wings.

lakerboy
05-14-2012, 06:11 PM
What would LeBron James average in today's NBA with Jordan's cerebral scoring mentality and offensive skill set?

That's basically what Jordan would be to today's NBA maybe just not as strong of course. He'd be the cream of the crop in terms of athleticism the most polished offensive game of any perimeter we've ever seen and the rip your heart out and have it for dinner type demeanor when putting the ball in the basket.

Jordan wouldn't be cream of the crop in terms of athleticism. He isn't nowhere near Lebron athleticism-wise. MJ and KB are alike in terms of athleticism. They were athletic in their prime (Kobe in the early 2000s). But since then there has been an emergence of super bodies like LBJ and 6'10 SG/SFs like Paul George or even "normal athletic" guys like Josh Smith or Trevor Ariza. Lebron could actually be argued as the most athletic athlete in sports history.

MJ probably wouldn't even be the most athletic guy in his team. Have you seen the crop of athletic guys today?? Damn, you have 6'10s who run like PGs. In the Lakers, for example, we have Devin Ebanks who is fast, young quick and long. Really long!

Swashcuff
05-14-2012, 06:21 PM
Jordan wouldn't be cream of the crop in terms of athleticism. He isn't nowhere near Lebron athleticism-wise. MJ and KB are alike in terms of athleticism. They were athletic in their prime (Kobe in the early 2000s). But since then there has been an emergence of super bodies like LBJ and 6'10 SG/SFs like Paul George or even "normal athletic" guys like Josh Smith or Trevor Ariza. Lebron could actually be argued as the most athletic athlete in sports history.

MJ probably wouldn't even be the most athletic guy in his team. Have you seen the crop of athletic guys today?? Damn, you have 6'10s who run like PGs. In the Lakers, for example, we have Devin Ebanks who is fast, young quick and long. Really long!

Dude think of this. If Michael Jordan benefited from ALLLLLL the technological and physical advantages that LeBron James, Devin Ebanks, Dwyane Wade, Andre Iguodala etc etc etc etc benefited from with his SUPREME work ethic you honestly don't that that Michael Jordan wouldn't be on par with LeBron in terms of athletic ability? Honestly?

You can't take a player from one era place him in another and expect him to be the same exact player. He's going to benefit/hindered from the advances/drawbacks of said era.

Jumi
05-14-2012, 06:29 PM
He would do exactly what he did in his time, if not more! Players that are fundamentally sound and have a high BBIQ can play in any era. Greatness withstands the test of time!

Jordan
Russell
Bird
Hakeem
Duncan
Nash
Stockton
Malone
Kidd
Robinson
West
Cousy

off the top of my head

MickeyMgl
05-14-2012, 06:34 PM
.

Yeah, um.... too much of that article relies on individual scoring totals from "two years ago", which at the time was 03-04, and if one pulls back and takes a wider view, they see that that was a ONE-YEAR dip in scoring that happened to come right before the NBA changed the handchecking rule. The year before that, with the more liberal handchecking rules, there were two 30ppg scorers, the 5th place guy scored 25.9 ppg,. The season AFTER 03-04 (04-05, the 1st year of the rule change), one 30ppg scorer, 5th place 26.0 ppg. I'm sure it did help scoring, if not as drastically as any comparison to 03-04 would suggest.

Then again, I'd take an arm bar by a shorter, isolated defender any day over a tall double team at the arc that forces me to pass up the ball - if I want to score a lot of points, that is.

JasonJohnHorn
05-14-2012, 06:40 PM
I don't think he would have put up numbers that were much different than when he played. Its not like he played in the 70's or something, a lot of the vets in the league today have played against Jordan. I expect he would actually average a little less since the game seems to have slowed down a bit, but I figure, being the ball hog that he was, he'd be putting up 30 a night, maybe 32.

MickeyMgl
05-14-2012, 06:43 PM
Imo mj would put up 60. Of kobe said and proved he can drop 40 whenever, mj can do 15 to 20 points more... And that's a statement that no one can deny.

:rolleyes:

MickeyMgl
05-14-2012, 06:46 PM
How would he have added foul trouble? This makes no sense whatsoever.

All we hear is "ticky tack fouls" and "no handchecking"... You think this is a one-way street?

MickeyMgl
05-14-2012, 06:47 PM
No lets not take that into consideration. Let's just take Jordan from his era place him in this era and expect him to be the same exact player.

He sure wouldn't be any taller.

Swashcuff
05-14-2012, 06:49 PM
All we hear is "ticky tack fouls" and "no handchecking"... You think this is a one-way street?

:laugh2:

I didn't know that was my entire post. Jordan would not be in foul trouble because he would play within the rules of the game, just every other player does. You seriously think Jordan would be hand checking in today's NBA? You seriously think he'd be purposely be making plays to put his team and himself in jeopardy night in night out

Edit out the rest of my post however and leave this again.

You think Jordan would put himself in foul trouble every night :laugh2:

MickeyMgl
05-14-2012, 06:53 PM
:laugh2:

I didn't know that was my entire post. Jordan would not be in foul trouble because he would play within the rules of the game, just every other player does. You seriously think Jordan would be hand checking in today's NBA? You seriously think he'd be purposely be making plays to put his team and himself in jeopardy night in night out

Oh, so all the handchecking fouls that you assume he'd benefit from would be committed on purpose? And his answer is to adjust and play softer defense, then, right?

Swashcuff
05-14-2012, 06:58 PM
Oh, so all the handchecking fouls that you assume he'd benefit from would be committed on purpose? And his answer is to adjust and play softer defense, then, right?

Dude you're right MJ would be in foul trouble every night because he wouldn't be able to play in today's NBA, same would go for every player from that era they were just too physical to play today. That's why if LeBron played in MJs era he wouldn't last 3 seasons because he'd cry right out of the league because he wasn't getting the calls he wanted. :rolleyes:

Seriously if your argument is that MJ wouldn't be able to stay on the floor because he couldn't adapt to the rules of this era and play within them then you're not worth having a discussion with because you clearly cannot apply simple context.

D1JM
05-14-2012, 07:03 PM
Jordan wouldn't be cream of the crop in terms of athleticism. He isn't nowhere near Lebron athleticism-wise. MJ and KB are alike in terms of athleticism. They were athletic in their prime (Kobe in the early 2000s). But since then there has been an emergence of super bodies like LBJ and 6'10 SG/SFs like Paul George or even "normal athletic" guys like Josh Smith or Trevor Ariza. Lebron could actually be argued as the most athletic athlete in sports history.

MJ probably wouldn't even be the most athletic guy in his team. Have you seen the crop of athletic guys today?? Damn, you have 6'10s who run like PGs. In the Lakers, for example, we have Devin Ebanks who is fast, young quick and long. Really long!

Lol devin ebanks athleticism sure has helped him out.

Chronz
05-14-2012, 07:18 PM
I'm not sure if you're serious or not, but if you are, this is an extremely misguided comment. Not counting Dwight Howard (for obvious reasons), Love averages the most FTA per game at 8.4. And you're saying he'll not only average 20+, but he'll MAKE 20 per game. That's insane.

And in terms of 30 points from actual shots, that's just ********. In 87, Jordan took an incredible 27.8 FGA per game (2,279 overall for the season, 7th most all time). Even with that many shots, he only averaged about 27 points a night not counting free throws. Doing some calculation, he would have to average 55% from 2s, 35% from 3s and take about 4 a night (which he never did in his entire career) to reach 30 per game. And there isn't a chance in hell he touches those numbers on 28 attempts per game....
When croon talks numbers, its best not to listen

The Final Boss
05-14-2012, 07:21 PM
19-24 per... Jordan's athleticism is what made him a good player. He played in an era of scrubs.

BULLSFAN0810
05-14-2012, 07:23 PM
Dude you're right MJ would be in foul trouble every night because he wouldn't be able to play in today's NBA, same would go for every player from that era they were just too physical to play today. That's why if LeBron played in MJs era he wouldn't last 3 seasons because he'd cry right out of the league because he wasn't getting the calls he wanted. :rolleyes:

Seriously if your argument is that MJ wouldn't be able to stay on the floor because he couldn't adapt to the rules of this era and play within them then you're not worth having a discussion with because you clearly cannot apply simple context.


No diss, but if Wade can play in the nba, A 21_33 year old Mj can hang.come on. You saying a basket ball professional cant adapt? I could see if it was 60 years ago, but the game is the same. What new move, what new scheme is there since MJ left? None. And if Pip said that, he also said James greater than Mj.He is a side kickwho is envyof his maker.

Swashcuff
05-14-2012, 07:29 PM
No diss, but if Wade can play in the nba, A 21_33 year old Mj can hang.come on. You saying a basket ball professional cant adapt? I could see if it was 60 years ago, but the game is the same. What new move, what new scheme is there since MJ left? None. And if Pip said that, he also said James greater than Mj.He is a side kickwho is envyof his maker.

Apparently you don't do a great job of sensing sarcasm.

BULLSFAN0810
05-14-2012, 07:35 PM
19-24 per... Jordan's athleticism is what made him a good player. He played in an era of scrubs.

Liar.. Every team had a group of allstars, and hof.. Ie gsw had Richmond, Hardaway, Mullins.
its very ignorant to say Mj played bums, when Mj played in the Golden era of ball, magic, bird, robinson, malone, stockton, ewing, mourning, hill, Webber, shaq. Thomas, Dumars. Man there was hella talent ..how old are you?
I'm inclined to think these New Stats can't play in the 90s and most def in the 80s. The bums had a 15 footer back then... Lookeep at classic sports when they reply old games. You'll see bums who we knew can't play in the nba hitting jumpers and boxing out. These new bums and some stars cant shoot period.

LoveMeOrHateMe
05-14-2012, 07:45 PM
Kobe's peak 32-36 so about that 36-37 at most

BULLSFAN0810
05-14-2012, 08:22 PM
Kobe's peak 32-36 so about that 36-37 at most
Mj already dropped close to that, so in a now easier NBA add on about five to
Ten points.

dalton749
05-14-2012, 08:31 PM
It's just as easy to say that LeBron would absolutely dominate in Jordans era. He would avg 35/10/10 no problem imo. If jordan is so smart and all don't you think he would be able to dominate today's game from a gm standpoint and not be the proud owner of the worst team in nba history lol

Vee-Rex
05-14-2012, 08:51 PM
What I don't like about these sorts of comparisons is that people never tend to use context. We always like to how much the league has changed, in terms of rules, pace, defense, athleticism, etc etc. Well don't you guys think that MJ would change as well?

Don't you think he'd be more athletic, that he'd find a way to counter these new rules and the defensive schemes which IMO doesn't phase MJ in the least bit he's great enough to adapt to whatever any defense throws at him. The very same advances that today's players have benefited from MJ will also. The ticky tacky fouls, no hand checking, a shortage in elite perimeter defenders as compared to when MJ played etc.

The only argument that's plausible through eras IMO is pace that's the one thing that though once a player adapts to he wouldn't be able to change the fact that his team would have less possessions in which to score.

How can we take a player from an older era and place him in a newer with the expectation that he wouldn't benefit from the advances that the players in that era have themselves benefited from? He's going to. He would be ahead of the pack in terms of athletic ability (MJ was a workhouse and would want to be considered the best in every aspect of his game), he would beat the zone D (I mean if Tracy McGrady could figure it out what do you guys expect MJ to do?), he'd plain and simple figure out the most effective way of scoring.

As for the actual answer to the troll's question I'd say anywhere between 32-36 ppg comfortably.

Best post in this silly thread. Wins hands down.

TheNumber37
05-14-2012, 09:11 PM
He could get 36 to 40, and why not? If he's a bigger stronger, kobe.

pd1dish
05-14-2012, 09:12 PM
MJ would get to the free throw line so many more time per game than back in the day. that alone would probably let him average over 30 ppg. this question was posed to Jordan a few years ago, and he jokingly said that he would suck because he would foul out of every game the way he played defense in his day and because of the hand check rule.

NoahH
05-15-2012, 12:37 AM
He wouldn't put up 40 unless he was on the Bobcats LOL

On a well rounded team probably 33ish

Hellcrooner
05-15-2012, 01:33 AM
I'm not sure if you're serious or not, but if you are, this is an extremely misguided comment. Not counting Dwight Howard (for obvious reasons), Love averages the most FTA per game at 8.4. And you're saying he'll not only average 20+, but he'll MAKE 20 per game. That's insane.

And in terms of 30 points from actual shots, that's just ********. In 87, Jordan took an incredible 27.8 FGA per game (2,279 overall for the season, 7th most all time). Even with that many shots, he only averaged about 27 points a night not counting free throws. Doing some calculation, he would have to average 55% from 2s, 35% from 3s and take about 4 a night (which he never did in his entire career) to reach 30 per game. And there isn't a chance in hell he touches those numbers on 28 attempts per game....

Lol i was being tri-sarcastic against how the refs call nowdays , against how much media influxes the game(and the refs), and against MJ überhype.

cutiepie80
05-15-2012, 03:47 AM
With the fouls that are given to Kobe, Durant, Wade, LBJ, and any other superstar in today's game.......he could average around 40 a game.

smiddy012
05-15-2012, 05:34 AM
If players today lack in fundamentals overall i would expect the overall FT% to be way lower then it was in the early 90's, I look at FT% because it isn't effected by rule changes and is always the same setting. But the difference is negligible.

A decrease in fundamentals due to an increase in athleticism. It's a tradeoff. That's a trend in other sports also, not just basketball. People as a species have gotten more athletic/bigger progressively over time due to many variables. The talent pools to grab basketball players are much larger. Athleticism can't be groomed like fundamentals. Today's players have a wider range of fundamental skill (average skillset), but a thinner, higher range of athletic prowess (average athleticism).


But people will always believe that the defense was better back in the day and players were better, even though they probably just liked it because the pace was so much higher.


Between the hand-checking rule and the flopping of today, lets not kid ourselves, defenses had more of an advantage in MJs day.

I did not state that defenses were better, I stated that they had more advantages due to the way the rules were back then and the way refs call things today. Put today's athletes in the 80s and 90s with the way the refs/rules were and I'd bet on them being better than their past counterparts defensively.


19-24 per... Jordan's athleticism is what made him a good player. He played in an era of scrubs.

Wow, you are certifiably ********. Congrats son.


Everyone forgets Jordan got star calls back in those days all the time, he'd get anywhere from 7-12FTA/gm each and every season until his decline (Washington); he'd be lucky to put up 35ppg in today's era with anywhere close to the efficiency he had in the 80s/90s.

Everyone forgets you are talking out of your butt... here is JordansBulls's post from the last MJ thread. And feel free to explain why he'd be nowhere near the efficiency he had in the 80s/90s.


He was getting a lot more FTs in the 80s, during his title years however:

1991: 8.2 FTA
1992: 7.4 FTA
1993: 7.3 FTA
1996: 8.0 FTA
1997: 7.0 FTA
1998: 8.8 FTA (this was the only year of his career I thought he was getting a bit too much love from the refs)

Jordan has two seasons of 10+ FTA/g, both on 24+ FGA/g.

You realize his career FTA/FGA is about 0.358, right? That's WAY lower than what you see out of Kobe, Wade, Lebron, etc, etc. Kobe's career FTA/FGA, even accounting for his pre-05 seasons, is .395, and it would have been higher if he'd played his entire career in years from 04-05 onward. Wade's at .503, Lebron at .434, Melo at about .410.

Should I go on?

Anyone who complains that Jordan got too many calls is flat-out ignorant. There aren't many seasons where his raw FTA/g were that bad, and there are only two or three seasons where he got anything like the favorable treatment seen by stars today. He got to the line because, like someone such as Wade, he drove a lot. Only the rules were different and he had to drive and shoot a lot more to earn his trips to the line. It's pure BS when people complain that Jordan got more calls than anyone else. David Robinson, Karl Malone and Charles Barkley are all examples of guys that got roughly equivalent or noticeably more favorable treatment from the refs in terms of how often they went to the line. Barkley's at .554 FTA/FGA on his career, BTW, while Robinson and Malone are at .577 and .503.

Did someone want to go back and re-learn their NBA history before continuing?

Thanks.


DITTO.

And another.


Hey guy MJ is the only player ever to average over 30 ppg in the season, playoffs and finals for his career and the only player to even average 30+ for a career in the playoffs and is ahead of everyone by at least 4 ppg.

Often times, posters on these forums, half of which are twenty or younger, or Kobephiles, love to disparage MJ. Yet statistically and logically, they will never be able to give an alternative to who is the GOAT. Looking at all the numbers, not just the PPG and FG%, he's statistically the best player in the history of the game, and that's before he went 24-0 in the playoffs with HCA.


too many variables to consider, but Jordans "greatness" is partially a sham

Please explain. [2]

smiddy012
05-15-2012, 06:33 AM
A guy who thought about slapping his own Arm/wrist to get calls would certainly master the art of flopping, yeah.

Right because flopping is a new thing :facepalm:

If MJ wanted to flop he would have, most players had a different mentality about winning in his day... namely they played like men, not teenage punks.

And if you really believe MJ would have become the ultimate flopper in today's game, he gets to that 40 PPG mark for sure, still making amateur floppers like Lebron and CP3 look like chumps in the process.

YashBoone
05-15-2012, 08:54 AM
Jordan would school Durant and Lebron and everyone else.... Michael wasn't just good because he was lucky.... He had a drive to be the best, and that's something you can't teach.... Only player in the nba the comes even remotely close to Mj is kobe.

YashBoone
05-15-2012, 09:03 AM
And for those on this forum who weren't really around and old enough to really watch Mj.... I mean really watch, then you missed out big time.

And whoever made that comment about player not needing fundamentals, please tell me why? Edf athleticism. What does that really have to do with players playing the game right?
Fundamentals teach you how to play great team ball, it ain't just about how high you can jump or how fast you can run.

BULLSFAN0810
05-15-2012, 11:49 AM
And for those on this forum who weren't really around and old enough to really watch Mj.... I mean really watch, then you missed out big time.

And whoever made that comment about player not needing fundamentals, please tell me why? Edf athleticism. What does that really have to do with players playing the game right?
Fundamentals teach you how to play great team ball, it ain't just about how high you can jump or how fast you can run.

Plus one, the guy was like God. Like a video game. I actually remember him blocking shaq. Not at the rim but close.

smith&wesson
05-15-2012, 12:08 PM
he would probably average between 30-35 points.

sep11ie
05-15-2012, 12:20 PM
MJ averaged 4.8ppg and 2.6 apg this year as back up PG for the Bulls.

MickeyMgl
05-15-2012, 07:32 PM
Dude you're right MJ would be in foul trouble every night because he wouldn't be able to play in today's NBA, same would go for every player from that era they were just too physical to play today. That's why if LeBron played in MJs era he wouldn't last 3 seasons because he'd cry right out of the league because he wasn't getting the calls he wanted. :rolleyes:

Seriously if your argument is that MJ wouldn't be able to stay on the floor because he couldn't adapt to the rules of this era and play within them then you're not worth having a discussion with because you clearly cannot apply simple context.

I'm not making any such argument. I'm simply trying to see if you're capable of consistent thinking. Whatever advantages Jordan would benefit from in this era as an offensive player, he would suffer from as a defender. And those disadvantages that you like to ignore would apply both ways, too.

But apparently, you can't resist the hypocrisy. Jordan would maximize all of the advantages and adjust to all of the disadvantages. :D

MickeyMgl
05-15-2012, 07:35 PM
Mj already dropped close to that, so in a now easier NBA add on about five to
Ten points.

What makes you think it's easier now?

goldenstater
05-15-2012, 07:53 PM
What makes you think it's easier now?

players in the league now days have way less fundamentals as a whole games a bit watered down if you ask me, less top line defensive stoppers in the league now days, way more touch fouls given these days to the offensive players. the players as a whole are far better athletes i will def say that but not better basketball players, 95% of them are soft and charmin. they can jump out of the gym but cant keep a player in front of them on the defensive end. of course the stars are the stars and they will shine in any era so im not really talking about the superstars which there are less of these days now too than in the 80's 90's and early 2000's. MJ's mid range would absolutely abuse the league today, another basketball skill that is almost lost in todays game. Jordan could easliy in his prime avg 35-40 a game in todays league esp when there are no great big men left to defend the paint( a couple good ones and maybe DH you could argue is great but no one really even averaging 3+ blocks a game in the league, back then you would have guys ave over 4). defense isn't as necessary now days, in a lot of sports though not just basketball. its happening in football, offense sells.period.

xxplayerxx23
05-15-2012, 08:26 PM
7 ppgs he would be a scrub lol, Nah Id say around 30-35

Swashcuff
05-15-2012, 09:47 PM
I'm not making any such argument. I'm simply trying to see if you're capable of consistent thinking. Whatever advantages Jordan would benefit from in this era as an offensive player, he would suffer from as a defender. And those disadvantages that you like to ignore would apply both ways, too.

But apparently, you can't resist the hypocrisy. Jordan would maximize all of the advantages and adjust to all of the disadvantages. :D

You have ZERO argument your ignorance is astounding.

AIRMAR72
05-15-2012, 10:47 PM
55 a game with EAZE in todays NBA ,pissing on zone defense with his hangtime ability and unreal body control plus the hands jordan would easily live at the FT line leading in that department as well

AIRMAR72
05-15-2012, 10:49 PM
players in the league now days have way less fundamentals as a whole games a bit watered down if you ask me, less top line defensive stoppers in the league now days, way more touch fouls given these days to the offensive players. the players as a whole are far better athletes i will def say that but not better basketball players, 95% of them are soft and charmin. they can jump out of the gym but cant keep a player in front of them on the defensive end. of course the stars are the stars and they will shine in any era so im not really talking about the superstars which there are less of these days now too than in the 80's 90's and early 2000's. MJ's mid range would absolutely abuse the league today, another basketball skill that is almost lost in todays game. Jordan could easliy in his prime avg 35-40 a game in todays league esp when there are no great big men left to defend the paint( a couple good ones and maybe DH you could argue is great but no one really even averaging 3+ blocks a game in the league, back then you would have guys ave over 4). defense isn't as necessary now days, in a lot of sports though not just basketball. its happening in football, offense sells.period.

well said

AIRMAR72
05-15-2012, 10:59 PM
OK, so besides ignoring the rules that actually HURT perimeter players and the kind of 1-on-1 isolation that Jordan thrived on, you are actually counting "defensive 3-seconds" (which is actually part of the "zone" rule that actually helps defenses) as something that would help him. Got it.

You know, in Jordan's day, if you were defending off the ball, you couldn't be in the lane OR out of the lane for 3 seconds if you weren't within six feet of an offensive player. Now, the second defender can shadow you as much as he wants without committing to a double team. That's actually HARDER on a perimeter player.



The attempt to dismiss any dissent is very popular among Jordan's fans. I saw him play his entire career. I remember that his best defenders were Joe Dumars, John Starks, and according to Jordan himself, Mitch Richmond. That's 6'3", 6'3", and 6'5". The best wing defenders today are taller than the best ones of two decades ago.

I'm not saying he wouldn't still thrive. I just don't like the whitewashing of all the factors, as if every rule made it easier to score and every change in the opponents could be offset by Jordan himself. Maybe he can wear better quality shoes today, but he can't get taller. He'd still do well, just not to the ridiculous degrees some people are saying in this thread.
guys like mitch, john stark, WILL shoutdown any wing player in today NBA and you can take that to the bank cats(players) where a different breed compare to todays guys

MickeyMgl
05-16-2012, 12:59 AM
guys like mitch, john stark, WILL shoutdown any wing player in today NBA and you can take that to the bank cats(players) where a different breed compare to todays guys

Here's how watered down the 90s were. Two fifths of the New York Knicks starting lineup during their hey day was made up of John Starks and Anthony Mason, guys they picked up from the CBA (precursor of the D-League). These teams were considered contenders!

MickeyMgl
05-16-2012, 01:02 AM
You have ZERO argument your ignorance is astounding.

In other words, you've got nothin', huh? Got it. No need to get your panties in a bunch. I won't press you on it further. You can pop your MJ weenie pacifier back in your mouth and go back to sleep.

MintBerryCrunch
05-16-2012, 01:04 AM
If you actually think players of the 80's are better than players of today... Wow.

Jordan would average somewhere around 30.

MintBerryCrunch
05-16-2012, 01:05 AM
55 a game with EAZE in todays NBA ,pissing on zone defense with his hangtime ability and unreal body control plus the hands jordan would easily live at the FT line leading in that department as well

HAHA no.

Mr_Amaziing
05-16-2012, 01:21 AM
32-35ppg

thekmp211
05-16-2012, 01:29 AM
the last thing i'll say in this thread.

besides ALL the physical talents jordan had it was his competitive spirit that made him the GOAT. he wanted it more than anyone, and he played against guys that wanted it A LOT. it's hard to quantify why or how, the phil jackson quote in that "flu game" ad says it all -- "the will to win". it is perhaps jordans greatest talent.

BigCityofDreams
05-16-2012, 08:40 AM
55 a game with EAZE in todays NBA ,pissing on zone defense with his hangtime ability and unreal body control plus the hands jordan would easily live at the FT line leading in that department as well

55 with ease??? Lol are you insane