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View Full Version : Kyrie Irving to be named Rookie of the Year



RenegadeRiot36
05-14-2012, 12:24 AM
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7925910/kyrie-irving-cleveland-cavaliers-win-rookie-year-award-according-sources


Not a big shocker here. He definately deserved it over anyone else.

flea
05-14-2012, 12:27 AM
He'll be the second best point guard (to CP3) within 2 years.

popo85
05-14-2012, 12:28 AM
Baller!!

justinnum1
05-14-2012, 12:35 AM
He'll be the second best point guard (to CP3) within 2 years.

yep

Ryan328
05-14-2012, 12:36 AM
Hopeful Cleveland gets him more help in the draft

5ass
05-14-2012, 12:40 AM
no surprise, he's a beast. what he did his rookie year was amazing. This guy is going to be special, hes going to be in the conversation for best PG in the NBA next year IMO.

LTBaByyy
05-14-2012, 12:50 AM
He wont be the 2nd best PG in next year or within 2 years lol

So he will be better than Rose, D Will, Rondo, and Westbrook? Haha

He will be #6 best PG at the end of next year

Raph12
05-14-2012, 12:53 AM
Boy's a beast, he was top 3 in PER for the 4th quarter this year (behind CP3 and LBJ)... The kid is special.

b@llhog24
05-14-2012, 12:54 AM
Kyrie Irving :drool:

b@llhog24
05-14-2012, 12:54 AM
Seriously though, well deserved.

b@llhog24
05-14-2012, 12:57 AM
He wont be the 2nd best PG in next year or within 2 years lol

So he will be better than Rose, D Will, Rondo, and Westbrook? Haha

He will be #6 best PG at the end of next year

He probably already better Rondo, in 2-3 years he will be a top 3 pg however you're smoking if you don't think so.

ragee
05-14-2012, 12:58 AM
He'll be the second best point guard (to CP3) within 2 years.

I have not seen him that much to be honest. Is this serious though? Does he have the potential to surpass, the likes of D-Will, Rose, Westbrook and Rondo?

flea
05-14-2012, 12:59 AM
He's already better than Rondo and is very close to Rose/Westbrook/Williams (all of whom I consider about equal in talent).

gwrighter
05-14-2012, 01:02 AM
Rightfully so, he is the unanimous ROY. I would have chosen Rubio had he been playing the whole year however. Watching Jose Calderon school all year Irving has left a bad taste in my mouth though.

ragee
05-14-2012, 01:10 AM
He's already better than Rondo and is very close to Rose/Westbrook/Williams (all of whom I consider about equal in talent).

If so, then why didn't he carry his team to win more games? I am not trolling/baiting or anything. I am just curious coz I haven't really seen a lot of Cavs games this year.

thekmp211
05-14-2012, 01:11 AM
obvious choice. he's a beast. want to see his passing game develop a bit if/when he gets more talent around him. but the guy is a special scorer.

flea
05-14-2012, 01:12 AM
If so, then why didn't he carry his team to win more games? I am not trolling/baiting or anything. I am just curious coz I haven't really seen a lot of Cavs games this year.

Because the best player on his team is Anderson Varejao. He won 1 game less than Deron Williams with a much worse roster.

EDIT: And he missed some time in the season I believe.

b@llhog24
05-14-2012, 01:12 AM
I have not seen him that much to be honest. Is this serious though? Does he have the potential to surpass, the likes of D-Will, Rose, Westbrook and Rondo?

He was definitely better than Rondo this season although Rondo was kind off banged up this season. That being said it was a lockout season so it would probably be best to see him play for a whole season. However for him to be able to play at the level he has this season with under 10 games in college, no training camp and regular practices, while being the #1 option all help to make the case to projcet him as a top pg in the future.

FreakaNashur
05-14-2012, 01:16 AM
YESS Cleveland has a real gem with kyrie irving. build around him and dont **** things up like lebron giving him an antawn jameson

b@llhog24
05-14-2012, 01:23 AM
If so, then why didn't he carry his team to win more games? I am not trolling/baiting or anything. I am just curious coz I haven't really seen a lot of Cavs games this year.

Cause the Cavs suck. Also early on he wasn't starting and he's been injured at several points during the season so by the time they were healthy his team just started to tank.

WITZ
05-14-2012, 01:29 AM
Cause the Cavs suck. Also early on he wasn't starting and he's been injured at several points during the season so by the time they were healthy his team just started to tank.

Couldn't be more Wrong :laugh2: he only started all 51 games he played in & the cavs were sittin in 8th seed until varejao got hurt. The only thing you are right about was that he was injured at a couple points in the season.

b@llhog24
05-14-2012, 01:37 AM
Couldn't be more Wrong :laugh2: he only started all 51 games he played in & the cavs were sittin in 8th seed until varejao got hurt. The only thing you are right about was that he was injured at a couple points in the season.

I'll apologize for the him not starting thing, I think I was getting him confused with Ramon. But the Cavs suck I'm right about that and just because he was playing doesn't mean he wasn't injured he played with injuries. :shrug:

RenegadeRiot36
05-14-2012, 02:00 AM
I have not seen him that much to be honest. Is this serious though? Does he have the potential to surpass, the likes of D-Will, Rose, Westbrook and Rondo?

IMO he does. Hes easily the most polished 20 year old scorer Ive ever seen. Offense is effortless for him, and thats with literally no other options on the court with him. If you space the defense out with another weapon and he can be unbelievable. Having other people put the ball in the hoop will definately help his assist/distribution numbers too. Countless times a gorgeous pass would be followed up by a missed shot or turnover by a teammate. Defensively, the skills will come with time but he is certainly not a liability by any means.

WITZ
05-14-2012, 02:16 AM
I'll apologize for the him not starting thing, I think I was getting him confused with Ramon. But the Cavs suck I'm right about that and just because he was playing doesn't mean he wasn't injured he played with injuries. :shrug:

No need to apologize, and co-sign the cavs have a pretty bad roster aside from like 3-4 players so yeah they suck. For a player who only played 11 college games no training camp and had to deal with a shortened season he had a pretty damn good year congrats Kyrie :clap:

thekmp211
05-14-2012, 02:16 AM
IMO he does. Hes easily the most polished 20 year old scorer Ive ever seen. Offense is effortless for him, and thats with literally no other options on the court with him. If you space the defense out with another weapon and he can be unbelievable. Having other people put the ball in the hoop will definately help his assist/distribution numbers too. Countless times a gorgeous pass would be followed up by a missed shot or turnover by a teammate. Defensively, the skills will come with time but he is certainly not a liability by any means.

yeah the talent he was working with on the perimeter this year was particularly awful. i fully expect those numbers to uptick, just can't say with confidence that's why the were low because i didn't watch him enough this season (sadly).

Becks2307
05-14-2012, 02:41 AM
40% from 3?

awesome

ragee
05-14-2012, 07:31 AM
Ok. Tnx! I am going to start watching Cavs game next season then! :D

Bulls_fan90
05-14-2012, 07:52 AM
LeBron will enjoy playing with him in a few years. (In Cleveland) ;)

Weezy
05-14-2012, 08:05 AM
Well deserved.....the next CP3!

b@llhog24
05-14-2012, 08:05 AM
No need to apologize, and co-sign the cavs have a pretty bad roster aside from like 3-4 players so yeah they suck. For a player who only played 11 college games no training camp and had to deal with a shortened season he had a pretty damn good year congrats Kyrie :clap:

Nah its cool, it's a good thing that you corrected me as I would probably keep misinforming people, and we both seem to be Irving fans so :cheers:

MagicBucsSox
05-14-2012, 08:18 AM
He's already better than Rondo and is very close to Rose/Westbrook/Williams (all of whom I consider about equal in talent).

Lmao what ever happen to a guy earning his way through the rankings throughout his yrs. nowadays a half season puts you in a league with guys who've done it for yrs. smh

Jumi
05-14-2012, 08:25 AM
Lmao what ever happen to a guy earning his way through the rankings throughout his yrs. nowadays a half season puts you in a league with guys who've done it for yrs. smh

this

Rondo's putting up triple doubles in the playoffs! Westbrook is top 5 in scoring and can go off for 30 on any given night. D Rose has a MVP, TP has three rings and a Finals MVP. Nash is among the league leaders in assists every year! :facepalm:

Swashcuff
05-14-2012, 08:39 AM
Lmao what ever happen to a guy earning his way through the rankings throughout his yrs. nowadays a half season puts you in a league with guys who've done it for yrs. smh

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Next season Kyrie could very well pull a John Wall or a Tyreke Evans on us and not really show any vast improvement in his game but no lets not take that into consideration. He's already better than Rondo (the same guy who is tearing up the postseason right now despite playing injured) and almost as good as Rose (The 2011 MVP), Deron Williams (one of 4 PGs in the last 20 years to average 20 ppg and 10 apg in a single season) and Russell Westbrook (who is certain to make an All NBA 1st or 2nd team this season).

Give Kyrie time before bestowing all this honours on him. Sure he's a fantastic talent and what he's doing is amazing but we are getting ahead of ourselves here. By saying that he's going to be better than Rose, Williams and Westbrook early as next season or the following.

Don't forget that those guys still have room to grow as well. We don't know how Rose's injury will affect his overall game but we saw vast improvements from him in all areas especially defensive and play making over the past two seasons. Deron improved his range and became an even more lethal 3 point shooter this season and Westbrook too improved his offense to the point that he became an elite two way PG and a certain threat on the offensive end.

These PGs are all young and all still have plenty room to grow NOT just Kyrie. All and all though congrats to the kid on a fantastic rookie campaign he deserved the award.

Jint.
05-14-2012, 08:41 AM
sounds about right..

looka09
05-14-2012, 08:51 AM
It's funny how everyone made fun of him and thought that he'll be bust and now he's considered a future top 3 PG.And his only 20yrs old.Well done to him.Same for Rubio.

YoungOne
05-14-2012, 08:59 AM
the awards are very boring this year :D

waveycrockett
05-14-2012, 09:38 AM
He's going to be legit. I dont know about being better than Rose and Westbrook tho.

Mr.ATLHawks
05-14-2012, 09:39 AM
He's already better than Rondo and is very close to Rose/Westbrook/Williams (all of whom I consider about equal in talent).

Offensively...Luke Ridnour is better then Rondo. Defensively and, rebounding an ball distribution...Kyrie aint sniffin Rondo's ***, yet. Please people think beofre you type. Not every PG is a scorer and just because thats not their primary objective doesnt drop them ranking wise. Rondo has a unique skillset and although I cvant stand his beady headed *** the kid is special. 8 Triple Doubles in the playoffs, cmon now...

Mr.ATLHawks
05-14-2012, 09:43 AM
IMO he does. Hes easily the most polished 20 year old scorer Ive ever seen. Offense is effortless for him, and thats with literally no other options on the court with him. If you space the defense out with another weapon and he can be unbelievable. Having other people put the ball in the hoop will definately help his assist/distribution numbers too. Countless times a gorgeous pass would be followed up by a missed shot or turnover by a teammate. Defensively, the skills will come with time but he is certainly not a liability by any means.

Really? The most polished 20 year old scorer you have ever seen...please rethink that.

Mr.ATLHawks
05-14-2012, 09:45 AM
It's funny how everyone made fun of him and thought that he'll be bust and now he's considered a future top 3 PG.And his only 20yrs old.Well done to him.Same for Rubio.

Well I was vbery surprised by Rubio. I knew he would be able to distribute and make highlight plays but I was certain his lack of jumpshot and size would hinder his scoring abilities. Needless to say I was proven wrong.

Mr.ATLHawks
05-14-2012, 09:46 AM
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Next season Kyrie could very well pull a John Wall or a Tyreke Evans on us and not really show any vast improvement in his game but no lets not take that into consideration. He's already better than Rondo (the same guy who is tearing up the postseason right now despite playing injured) and almost as good as Rose (The 2011 MVP), Deron Williams (one of 4 PGs in the last 20 years to average 20 ppg and 10 apg in a single season) and Russell Westbrook (who is certain to make an All NBA 1st or 2nd team this season).

Give Kyrie time before bestowing all this honours on him. Sure he's a fantastic talent and what he's doing is amazing but we are getting ahead of ourselves here. By saying that he's going to be better than Rose, Williams and Westbrook early as next season or the following.

Don't forget that those guys still have room to grow as well. We don't know how Rose's injury will affect his overall game but we saw vast improvements from him in all areas especially defensive and play making over the past two seasons. Deron improved his range and became an even more lethal 3 point shooter this season and Westbrook too improved his offense to the point that he became an elite two way PG and a certain threat on the offensive end.

These PGs are all young and all still have plenty room to grow NOT just Kyrie. All and all though congrats to the kid on a fantastic rookie campaign he deserved the award.

I think John Wall got tired of losing playing with losers (Nick Young, Javale McGee, mental midgets) You see he started playing better once those guys were gone and he had Nene towards the end of last year. He needs to work on his jumpshot but he should be fine. Tyreke's foot problem I think has hindered his progression.

PhillyBoomerang
05-14-2012, 09:59 AM
Kyrie Irving is a good start foundation to the Cavs, if they add an interior presence in the draft (ala Thomas or Drummund) They could make a quick turn around. It will be interesting to see where some of these top players from college go, I think this draft has a lot of talent

Algmuskrats
05-14-2012, 11:02 AM
I think it depends if he can stay healthy. He missed alot of college ball and a good amount of games this season too.

Algmuskrats
05-14-2012, 11:03 AM
Lmao what ever happen to a guy earning his way through the rankings throughout his yrs. nowadays a half season puts you in a league with guys who've done it for yrs. smh

Amen.

flea
05-14-2012, 12:40 PM
Offensively...Luke Ridnour is better then Rondo. Defensively and, rebounding an ball distribution...Kyrie aint sniffin Rondo's ***, yet. Please people think beofre you type. Not every PG is a scorer and just because thats not their primary objective doesnt drop them ranking wise. Rondo has a unique skillset and although I cvant stand his beady headed *** the kid is special. 8 Triple Doubles in the playoffs, cmon now...

Irving did far more with a Charlotte Bobcats-esque roster than Rondo ever would. Yeah it's nice Rondo has 3 HOFers to play with in the playoffs so he can do his game. It doesn't change the fact that Irving had the better season, is a much better shooter, and is as good or better at driving. Defense and rebounding are the two least important things a point guard does, and while it's nice that a PG can do it it's certainly not the same as shooting 47% from the field and 40% from 3 while scoring over 20 points per game.

When he came into the league everyone knew he was physical and could get to the rim, the only question was his shooting. Well, he's already placed himself in an elite shooting class with guys like Stephen Curry, Dirk, and Durant.

thekmp211
05-14-2012, 02:53 PM
^^ he's an elite scorer for sure. but it's well known that he is not a good defensive player. again, i have no doubt that he will improve. but let's not project what we think he'll do, cause he hasn't done it yet. he was a rookie this year. let him earn the right to be mentioned with some of these names.

NokomisLiving
05-14-2012, 03:04 PM
Irving did far more with a Charlotte Bobcats-esque roster than Rondo ever would. Yeah it's nice Rondo has 3 HOFers to play with in the playoffs so he can do his game. It doesn't change the fact that Irving had the better season, is a much better shooter, and is as good or better at driving. Defense and rebounding are the two least important things a point guard does, and while it's nice that a PG can do it it's certainly not the same as shooting 47% from the field and 40% from 3 while scoring over 20 points per game.

When he came into the league everyone knew he was physical and could get to the rim, the only question was his shooting. Well, he's already placed himself in an elite shooting class with guys like Stephen Curry, Dirk, and Durant.

Ask Minnesota fans how important Rubio's defense was for us after he went down. Although it wasn't just that, his control of the offense and play making ability was also a big factor.

It's good to see Irving and Rubio succeed after a lot of doubts. Glad Irving got it, and excited to see another young gun continue to grow.

flea
05-14-2012, 03:21 PM
^^ he's an elite scorer for sure. but it's well known that he is not a good defensive player. again, i have no doubt that he will improve. but let's not project what we think he'll do, cause he hasn't done it yet. he was a rookie this year. let him earn the right to be mentioned with some of these names.

Most players aren't good defensively when they come into the league. Irving wasn't a bad defender, just not an asset. To me, he's already earned the right because he's a remarkable talent. When Durant and Lebron were rookies each was already a top 5 SF in the game. That's where Irving sits.

Ezio
05-14-2012, 03:26 PM
Never got to see Rose vs Irving :sad2:

MonroeFAN
05-14-2012, 03:30 PM
I love how after a half of a season, he's better than Rondo. Rondo is 10x the player Irving is right now. I don't need advanced stats to see that, watch the ****ing game.

I can't believe a player who came within margins of averaging a triple double per game in the playoffs is being compared to a player who had the green light to do whatever he wanted on some crap basketball team. He could very well be a star soon, but it's ridiculous to downplay Rondo and what he's done.

Sactown
05-14-2012, 03:38 PM
^^ He's an elite scorer for sure. but it's well known that he is not a good defensive player. again, i have no doubt that he will improve. but let's not project what we think he'll do, cause he hasn't done it yet. he was a rookie this year. let him earn the right to be mentioned with some of these names.

Irving : ORtg 109 DRtg 110 TS% .556 TOV% 16.1 Per 21.4 WS/48 .125
Isiah Thomas: ORtg 116 Drtg 113 TS% .574 TOV% 13.9 Per 17.6 WS/48 .124

I think his offense is a little overrated considered he's the only option Cleveland has.. and if he's considered elite on offense what does that make Isiah, who has a higher ORtg rating, higher shooting percentage, and a lower turnover percentage... Their WS/48 is practically identical, and Isiah had limited minutes in the first half of the season. No doubt Irving deserved this award, but the hype of him being a top 3 PG already is insane.. the numbers are just not there.
Teams are going to adjust better to his game next season, as they will for Thomas.. the difference is, I'm not saying Thomas is a top 5 PG, because he just isn't, neither of these players would be putting up these types of numbers if they played for .500 ball clubs.

MonroeFAN
05-14-2012, 03:40 PM
^haha

Sactown
05-14-2012, 03:42 PM
^haha

Are you disagreeing? And if so, why?

thekmp211
05-14-2012, 03:51 PM
Most players aren't good defensively when they come into the league. Irving wasn't a bad defender, just not an asset. To me, he's already earned the right because he's a remarkable talent. When Durant and Lebron were rookies each was already a top 5 SF in the game. That's where Irving sits.

well that's different. compare the talent. i think that, with numbers down this year, the position is very deep. paul and rose are amongst the best individual players in the game. then you have former mvps (nash), finals mvps (parker), all stars (rondo/westbrook) and up and comers in their own right (lawson/lowry/jennings/curry). i can't in earnest say irving is better than any of those guys right now. next year i expect him to be in that last group. 2-4 years down the road, we'll see. but not yet.


Irving : ORtg 109 DRtg 110 TS% .556 TOV% 16.1 Per 21.4 WS/48 .125
Isiah Thomas: ORtg 116 Drtg 113 TS% .574 TOV% 13.9 Per 17.6 WS/48 .124

I think his offense is a little overrated considered he's the only option Cleveland has.. and if he's considered elite on offense what does that make Isiah, who has a higher ORtg rating, higher shooting percentage, and a lower turnover percentage... Their WS/48 is practically identical, and Isiah had limited minutes in the first half of the season. No doubt Irving deserved this award, but the hype of him being a top 3 PG already is insane.. the numbers are just not there.

Teams are going to adjust better to his game next season, as they will for Thomas.. the difference is, I'm not saying Thomas is a top 5 PG, because he just isn't, neither of these players would be putting up these types of numbers if they played for .500 ball clubs.

sure. thomas was such a steal. he's also got a lot more to work with on offense. the cavs had...i don't even know on the wings. boobie gibson and anthony parker?

http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/roster/2011

that roster is hideous. thomas got to play with reke, thornton (underrated player) and of course jimmer ( kidding). but i agree the hype is a bit much. i think he'll improve but yeah, there is no guarantee for the reasons you state above. it is not a foregone conclusion that his talent will = that next level of production.

Sactown
05-14-2012, 03:57 PM
well that's different. compare the talent. i think that, with numbers down this year, the position is very deep. paul and rose are amongst the best individual players in the game. then you have former mvps (nash), finals mvps (parker), all stars (rondo/westbrook) and up and comers in their own right (lawson/lowry/jennings/curry). i can't in earnest say irving is better than any of those guys right now. next year i expect him to be in that last group. 2-4 years down the road, we'll see. but not yet.



sure. thomas was such a steal. he's also got a lot more to work with on offense. the cavs had...i don't even know on the wings. boobie gibson and anthony parker?

http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/roster/2011

that roster is hideous. thomas got to play with reke, thornton (underrated player) and of course jimmer ( kidding). but i agree the hype is a bit much. i think he'll improve but yeah, there is no guarantee for the reasons you state above. it is not a foregone conclusion that his talent will = that next level of production.
I agree, the potential is there, the work ethic appears to be there, and I agree Thomas had more help, but that also hurt Thomas's minutes per game and his PPG. Irving did a great job with his FG% considering he had to shoot the ball fairly frequently, but there is no doubt that being on poor teams inflated both of these players stats, and it's also true that other teams will be more prepared for them next season. It's also true that the Western conference has harder teams to face night in and night out, but the point is, that neither player is currently a top 5 PG in the league, and I'm not saying that won't change.

lavell12
05-14-2012, 04:00 PM
I don't know if I've seen a better rookie PG. Dude just turned 20 and is probably the best shooting PG outside maybe Nash in the league. Kyrie was also great in the fourth quarter of games, he would have like 6 points going into the 4th quarter and finish the game with 20. He also made Antwan Jameson come back to life.

ottograham14
05-14-2012, 04:01 PM
Needs to improve his defense a lot but like someone already said not a lot of rookies come into the league and make a splash on defense unless that was their specialty in college and something they had done for 2 to 3 years and not just a Freshman. It takes time to learn adjustments, picks, player movement, assignments, etc on a professional level.

His offense was very good though and his percentages were better than what I though he was going to do his first year. Is he a top 5 PG already. NO. He has a lot of places he can continue to grow in his game. Can he be a top 5 PG in 2-3 years. Depends on his learning curve but nothing he did this season at least besides maybe staying more healthy says that he cannot be. You have to remember too that yes he was the Cavs main scoring option but teams knew that too and knew that they didn't have to worry about his wing players (Alonzo Gee, Omri Casspi, Daniel Gibson, Anthony Parker, Manny Harris) or an inside presence (Varajeo, Thompson who cant create on his own, Samardo Samuels, Ryan Freaking Hollins, Luke Freakin Harangody, Semih Erden).

Looking at those players where half if not 3/4th's should be in the D-League I think he did pretty well for himself this year and will only continue to get better with more offseason which he didnt have last year and a better supporting cast. Very Deserving of ROY Award.

b@llhog24
05-14-2012, 04:05 PM
I love how after a half of a season, he's better than Rondo. Rondo is 10x the player Irving is right now. I don't need advanced stats to see that, watch the ****ing game.

I can't believe a player who came within margins of averaging a triple double per game in the playoffs is being compared to a player who had the green light to do whatever he wanted on some crap basketball team. He could very well be a star soon, but it's ridiculous to downplay Rondo and what he's done.

Ironic.

b@llhog24
05-14-2012, 04:08 PM
Irving isn't a top 5 pg but he had a season that can be argued as top 5 for his position. Also I think people are taking the fact that he's had the best rookie season by a pg since probably Cp3 so its just an expected progression thing.

Sactown
05-14-2012, 04:10 PM
Needs to improve his defense a lot but like someone already said not a lot of rookies come into the league and make a splash on defense unless that was their specialty in college and something they had done for 2 to 3 years and not just a Freshman. It takes time to learn adjustments, picks, player movement, assignments, etc on a professional level.

His offense was very good though and his percentages were better than what I though he was going to do his first year. Is he a top 5 PG already. NO. He has a lot of places he can continue to grow in his game. Can he be a top 5 PG in 2-3 years. Depends on his learning curve but nothing he did this season at least besides maybe staying more healthy says that he cannot be. You have to remember too that yes he was the Cavs main scoring option but teams knew that too and knew that they didn't have to worry about his wing players (Alonzo Gee, Omri Casspi, Daniel Gibson, Anthony Parker, Manny Harris) or an inside presence (Varajeo, Thompson who cant create on his own, Samardo Samuels, Ryan Freaking Hollins, Luke Freakin Harangody, Semih Erden).

Looking at those players where half if not 3/4th's should be in the D-League I think he did pretty well for himself this year and will only continue to get better with more offseason which he didnt have last year and a better supporting cast. Very Deserving of ROY Award.

Tyreke Evans averaged more PPG in his rookie season and he couldn't shoot outside of 15 feet. and the Kings were one of the worst 3pt shooting teams in the league and had absolutely no talent.. teams will adjust next season. He's going to have to continue to grow to maintain his stats let alone improve them, I expect him to get better next season because I hear his work ethic is superb, but if he had played for the Heat or even the Pacers his stats would have dipped but his impact might of been greater. Defense will play him better next season and I guarantee it

topdog
05-14-2012, 04:13 PM
Now, if Cleveland grabs Beal in the draft Ohio is going to say "Lebron who?"

I kid of course, but that would be an awesome backcourt.

Sactown
05-14-2012, 04:18 PM
Irving isn't a top 5 pg but he had a season that can be argued as top 5 for his position. Also I think people are taking the fact that he's had the best rookie season by a pg since probably Cp3 so its just an expected progression thing.

CP3 and Irvings rookie seasons aren't even comparable
CP3 was on a 38-44 win team and had significantly better stats on offense and defense. also, Irvings rookie season was marginally better than Thomas's and if Steph Curry wasn't in Don's dog house, he would of had a better rookie season. so everything in this post is suspect to me.

flea
05-14-2012, 04:32 PM
CP3 and Irvings rookie seasons aren't even comparable
CP3 was on a 38-44 win team and had significantly better stats on offense and defense. also, Irvings rookie season was marginally better than Thomas's and if Steph Curry wasn't in Don's dog house, he would of had a better rookie season. so everything in this post is suspect to me.

Paul also played 2 seasons in college to Irving's, uh, month? Curry also had significant college experience. Paul's rookie PER was .6 higher than Irving's (read: not significant). A Kings fan comparing a guy charged with almost half the FGA per game playing next to one of the best young big men in the game and a very good combo guard is just silly.

thekmp211
05-14-2012, 04:34 PM
^^ i think the take away is that stats are just a part of it.

i agree that perhaps the most remarkable thing about this season is that he barely played his only year in school.

Sactown
05-14-2012, 04:47 PM
Paul also played 2 seasons in college to Irving's, uh, month? Curry also had significant college experience. Paul's rookie PER was .6 higher than Irving's (read: not significant). A Kings fan comparing a guy charged with almost half the FGA per game playing next to one of the best young big men in the game and a very good combo guard is just silly.
The point I'm making is, playing for a better team is going to significantly effect your stats, and I would take the guy who has a .6 per advantage and led his team to a SIGNIFICANTLY better record also who had a WS/48 which was nearly 1.5 times better, who also had a better AST % a better TOV% missed SIGNIFICANTLY less games had a much better DRtg and ORtg. PER only tells part of the story, it's the other stats that jump out at you... and how is comparing Isaiah Thomas to Irving silly? Having two good players next to you just takes away from your stats, yet his stats nearly match Irvings in all aspects... throwing the college experience at me is just silly because the talent you face and the their roll on the team is significantly different from College.. once your drafted you're all at an even playing level.

WITZ
05-14-2012, 05:15 PM
Irving : ORtg 109 DRtg 110 TS% .556 TOV% 16.1 Per 21.4 WS/48 .125
Isiah Thomas: ORtg 116 Drtg 113 TS% .574 TOV% 13.9 Per 17.6 WS/48 .124

I think his offense is a little overrated considered he's the only option Cleveland has.. and if he's considered elite on offense what does that make Isiah, who has a higher ORtg rating, higher shooting percentage, and a lower turnover percentage... Their WS/48 is practically identical, and Isiah had limited minutes in the first half of the season. No doubt Irving deserved this award, but the hype of him being a top 3 PG already is insane.. the numbers are just not there.
Teams are going to adjust better to his game next season, as they will for Thomas.. the difference is, I'm not saying Thomas is a top 5 PG, because he just isn't, neither of these players would be putting up these types of numbers if they played for .500 ball clubs.

Not gonna argue those stats,but like Magic Johnson said teams were game planning for Kyrie same couldn't be said for any other rookie this year which imo makes those stats that much more impressive.

Sactown
05-14-2012, 05:21 PM
Not gonna argue those stats,but like Magic Johnson said teams were game planning for Kyrie same couldn't be said for any other rookie this year which imo makes those stats that much more impressive.

I don't think teams were "game planning" for Irving like Johnson was saying, and the reason I feel that way is, look at Tyreke Evans.. the defense has changed dramatically since his rookie season, and part of that is having more game tape to study. The only film coming into this season on Irving was what? High school film tape? It's hard to get a full sample size of game film from a rookie player. the defense will change next season.

JasonJohnHorn
05-14-2012, 05:23 PM
I have to imagine that he got all the first place votes. I can see any other rookie having an agruement that they had a better season than Irving.

I hope this kid turns out. The Cavs deserve some good news. And I think they have some nice pieces to build with.

tapajafri
05-14-2012, 05:39 PM
Isaiah Thomas should be second in the voting. Two nice point guards in this year's draft coming first and last.

RenegadeRiot36
05-14-2012, 06:01 PM
Really? The most polished 20 year old scorer you have ever seen...please rethink that.

How many entire games did you watch where he played? I am a Cavs fan who had the luxury of watching even LeBron at 20. Polished refers to skill level. Kyrie is one of the smoothest guards ive seen. He scores effortlessly relying only on his skill and craftiness with the ball. He doesnt have the athleticism of Rose or Westbrook so he relies on pure finesse and talent to put the ball in the hoop similar to CP3.

Rather than just calling me out why don't you try and prove me wrong?

RenegadeRiot36
05-14-2012, 06:10 PM
The point I'm making is, playing for a better team is going to significantly effect your stats, and I would take the guy who has a .6 per advantage and led his team to a SIGNIFICANTLY better record also who had a WS/48 which was nearly 1.5 times better, who also had a better AST % a better TOV% missed SIGNIFICANTLY less games had a much better DRtg and ORtg. PER only tells part of the story, it's the other stats that jump out at you... and how is comparing Isaiah Thomas to Irving silly? Having two good players next to you just takes away from your stats, yet his stats nearly match Irvings in all aspects... throwing the college experience at me is just silly because the talent you face and the their roll on the team is significantly different from College.. once your drafted you're all at an even playing level.


So you think having two other serious threats on the court at the same time HURTS Thomas's stats? Do you really believe that his numbers have nothing to do with teams leaving room for him to score and worrying more about Cousins and Tyreke? Teams dont exactly lose any sleep over Tristan Thompson, Alonzo Gee, Semih ****ing Erden, etc so they leave them open and build defenses around the one and only threat. I guarantee you if you put Demarcus Cousins on the Cavs, Kyrie can AVERAGE 25 and 10 per game.

Swashcuff
05-14-2012, 06:11 PM
How many entire games did you watch where he played? I am a Cavs fan who had the luxury of watching even LeBron at 20. Polished refers to skill level. Kyrie is one of the smoothest guards ive seen. He scores effortlessly relying only on his skill and craftiness with the ball. He doesnt have the athleticism of Rose or Westbrook so he relies on pure finesse and talent to put the ball in the hoop similar to CP3.

Rather than just calling me out why don't you try and prove me wrong?

Does the name Kevin Durant or Adrian Dantley mean anything to you?

A 20 year old Durant scored 7 more points per game than Kyrie while player 74 games on a great TS%, FG% and 3FG%.

Swashcuff
05-14-2012, 06:15 PM
So you think having two other serious threats on the court at the same time HURTS Thomas's stats? Do you really believe that his numbers have nothing to do with teams leaving room for him to score and worrying more about Cousins and Tyreke? Teams dont exactly lose any sleep over Tristan Thompson, Alonzo Gee, Semih ****ing Erden, etc so they leave them open and build defenses around the one and only threat. I guarantee you if you put Demarcus Cousins on the Cavs, Kyrie can AVERAGE 25 and 10 per game.

3 players in league history has been able to do that you honestly think that based on his rookie season and nothing else (a shortened season at that) that he's be able to do something that no player has done in over 20 years?

Kyrie is yet to show the ability to become an elite passer or an elite volume scorer both of which he'd need if he ever intends to get anywhere near 25 and 10 on a season. You can play Irving with prime Shaq he wouldn't average 25 and 10. Hell MAGIC JOHNSON couldn't even do that with Kareem in one of the highest paced and open offenses in the last 30 years what makes you think off of just one season (didn't even player 50 games) thta Kyrie could do such?

flea
05-14-2012, 06:18 PM
Does the name Kevin Durant or Adrian Dantley mean anything to you?

A 20 year old Durant scored 7 more points per game than Kyrie while player 74 games on a great TS%, FG% and 3FG%.

And we'll see what Irving does next year in his age 20 season. But since this thread is about ROOKIE seasons, Durant had 43% FG, 29% 3FG, and 52% TS. Compared to Irving's 47/40/57.

Sactown
05-14-2012, 06:23 PM
So you think having two other serious threats on the court at the same time HURTS Thomas's stats? Do you really believe that his numbers have nothing to do with teams leaving room for him to score and worrying more about Cousins and Tyreke? Teams dont exactly lose any sleep over Tristan Thompson, Alonzo Gee, Semih ****ing Erden, etc so they leave them open and build defenses around the one and only threat. I guarantee you if you put Demarcus Cousins on the Cavs, Kyrie can AVERAGE 25 and 10 per game.

When you play off the ball just as often as on the ball, yes your stats are going to take a hit. And teams definitely did not lay off of Thomas because of Cousins lol, they laid off of Thomas because he was the quickest player on the floor every game. and please explain why Tyrekes stat's didn't jump up to 25-10 when Cousins was drafted? There is only one ball and if Irving played with Cousins he'd be without the ball more often than with it... In order for Irving to average 7 more points a game by adding another LEGIT threat next to him he'd have to shoot the ball more or shoot 60% lol... why would having a legit threat give you more shots? He'd more like average 14-9... and if you had Tyreke with Irving, Irving would have brought the ball up the court about half as often...

RenegadeRiot36
05-14-2012, 06:24 PM
And we'll see what Irving does next year in his age 20 season. But since this thread is about ROOKIE seasons, Durant had 43% FG, 29% 3FG, and 52% TS. Compared to Irving's 47/40/57.

Plus Kyrie was 19 for 3/4 of the season too (not that it really matters). People love getting all over technicalities and missing the main points of the arguements. Aruguing on this site is like two people pushing against a cinderblock wall from each side.

flea
05-14-2012, 06:26 PM
I'm not sure what that guy was trying to prove.

Swashcuff
05-14-2012, 06:27 PM
And we'll see what Irving does next year in his age 20 season. But since this thread is about ROOKIE seasons, Durant had 43% FG, 29% 3FG, and 52% TS. Compared to Irving's 47/40/57.

This thread is about one thing but we are currently having a discussion about 20 YEAR OLDS so if you want to jump in you should follow suite. Kyrie is currently 20 years old is he not?

Sactown
05-14-2012, 06:27 PM
Plus Kyrie was 19 for 3/4 of the season too (not that it really matters). People love getting all over technicalities and missing the main points of the arguements. Aruguing on this site is like two people pushing against a cynderblock wall from each side.

Age isn't an excuse.. most players are one and done now a days.. Knit picking days is stupid...

Swashcuff
05-14-2012, 06:28 PM
Plus Kyrie was 19 for 3/4 of the season too (not that it really matters). People love getting all over technicalities and missing the main points of the arguements. Aruguing on this site is like two people pushing against a cinderblock wall from each side.

Dude did you not say Kyrie is the most polished 20 year old scorer you've ever seen? Why are you trying to pullout on that statement now when someone challenges your opinion?

RenegadeRiot36
05-14-2012, 06:38 PM
Dude did you not say Kyrie is the most polished 20 year old scorer you've ever seen? Why are you trying to pullout on that statement now when someone challenges your opinion?

Whos trying to pull out? Durant is also 6" taller and is a SF that is free to go and score all he wants because he doesnt bring up the ball or run the offense. Im not talking about volume shooting. I am talking purely from a skill level perspective that you can get when you actually watch games instead of punching numbers into calculators while the game is in the background. And hes 20 now. Hes was definately the most talented 19 year old scoring wise. And hes arugably the most polished scorer at 20 that I've seen. Congratulations, you've gotten me to put the word "arguably" into my opinion!

flea
05-14-2012, 06:39 PM
This thread is about one thing but we are currently having a discussion about 20 YEAR OLDS so if you want to jump in you should follow suite. Kyrie is currently 20 years old is he not?

No this is a thread about rookies of the year. People are comparing Paul's and Curry's rookie years after they had significant college experience. This was Irving's age 19 season. Stop trying to obfuscate.

Sactown
05-14-2012, 06:41 PM
No this is a thread about rookies of the year. People are comparing Paul's and Curry's rookie years after they had significant college experience. This was Irving's age 19 season. Stop trying to obfuscate.

You can't keep using that as an excuse... when you're drafted you're on a clean slate with everyone else.. Age is no longer an excuse.. it's years of experience in the pros that matter.. not in college

Swashcuff
05-14-2012, 06:43 PM
Whos trying to pull out? Durant is also 6" taller and is a SF that is free to go and score all he wants because he doesnt bring up the ball or run the offense. Im not talking about volume shooting. I am talking purely from a skill level perspective that you can get when you actually watch games instead of punching numbers into calculators while the game is in the background. And hes 20 now. Hes was definately the most talented 19 year old scoring wise. And hes arugably the most polished scorer at 20 that I've seen. Congratulations, you've gotten me to put the word "arguably" into my opinion!

You yourself spoke of volume scoring. You said Irving would average 25 and 10 if he played with Cousins did you not?

Height is no excuse. Adrian Dantley was 3 inches taller than Irving played against guys bigger than him every single night but at the age of 20 he could kill you offensively just as badly as Kyrie does minus the 3 point shooting ability.

Swashcuff
05-14-2012, 06:45 PM
No this is a thread about rookies of the year. People are comparing Paul's and Curry's rookie years after they had significant college experience. This was Irving's age 19 season. Stop trying to obfuscate.

Dude just shut it. You jumped into a discussion that had nothing to do with you and now you're trying to act as if you are right. The other poster made a point it was debated we moved on.... either contribute to the DISCUSSION or stay out.

MonroeFAN
05-14-2012, 06:53 PM
Are you disagreeing? And if so, why?

No, no, sorry. Just find it hilarious that they were so close in advanced stats, and one was drafted first over all and is being touted as this amazing player after not doing much of anything.

Sactown
05-14-2012, 06:57 PM
The Arguments I'm hearing from you guys are:

"Well, he didn't even have a college career and he's so young"
My response is, is that really a good thing? He missed nearly 1/4 of his rookie season and practically all of his college career? and Age doesn't matter as much as millage does... Why do you think Jordan made it to 40 while Kobe and KG probably won't?

"He's so smooth as a 20 year old because he relies on Skill because he lacks athletic ability and explosion" Well that means he's going to be a liability on defense because he can't guard the more explosive quick guards in the league

"Well, if he had better teammates he'd average 25-10"
Really? because with his 3 points off of FT that leads him with 15 points on 7-14.5 shooting.. he'd have to shoot about 70-80% to get 7 more points without shooting the ball more, and more talent usually means less shot attempts not more.. and adding one good player isn't going to double your assist total or Lebron would average 15 assists per game...

None of your arguments are valid.. realistically Irving is a SOLID Pg with a bright future if he works hard and keeps developing his skills.. is he a lock for top 3 PG? Absolutely not.. he isn't even a top 5 PG currently and has a long long ways to go to get there, especially with his injury bug and lack of athleticism. did he deserve Rookie of the year? absolutely, but this was arguably one of the worst rookie products in a long time.

MonroeFAN
05-14-2012, 06:57 PM
Ironic.

How is that ironic? I clearly said I don't need 'ADVANCED STATS' to show me who is the better player. A triple double has nothing to do with Advanced stats.

I watched Rondo come close to averaging a triple double. I watched Irving post 18 & 5, and now is being called a top 5 point guard. Sure, the percentages are great, I'm happy for him. I was happy for Tyreke Evans too.

He is well deserving of the award. Claiming that he's already better than Rondo is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life. Yes, he could become better (soon even). Based on what we've seen thus far, it's completely asinine to claim that he's better than a player who carried an old team through the playoffs (08-09), when Irving could barely win more games than the previous season.

Sactown
05-14-2012, 06:58 PM
No, no, sorry. Just find it hilarious that they were so close in advanced stats, and one was drafted first over all and is being touted as this amazing player after not doing much of anything.

I just don't understand the CP3 comparison at all.

RenegadeRiot36
05-14-2012, 07:19 PM
The Arguments I'm hearing from you guys are:

"Well, he didn't even have a college career and he's so young"
My response is, is that really a good thing? He missed nearly 1/4 of his rookie season and practically all of his college career? and Age doesn't matter as much as millage does... Why do you think Jordan made it to 40 while Kobe and KG probably won't?

"He's so smooth as a 20 year old because he relies on Skill because he lacks athletic ability and explosion" well that means he's going to be a liability on defense because he can't guard the more explosive quick guards in the league

"Well, if he had better teammates he'd average 25-10"
Really? because with his 3 points off of FT that leads him with 15 points on 7-14.5 shooting.. he'd have to shoot about 70-80% to get 7 more points without shooting the ball more, and more talent usually means less shot attempts not more.. and adding one good player isn't going to double your assist total or Lebron would average 15 assists per game...


You need to do a little better job reading. If you're going to nitpick details so am I. I assume the two things I highlighted are directed towards my arguments, which you are reading absolutely incorrectly.

For the first one, he is by no means lacking athleticism or explosiveness. He is still a great athlete and (i forget the exact statistic or who did it), but Kyrie was in the top 6-8 in terms of speed with the ball. The comparison was made that he scores from pure skill rather than using the ELITE athleticism to simply beat defenders that a Derrick Rose or Russel Westbrook rely on. And if you paid a little more attention you would see that we were talking about OFFENSE. Defense wasnt even in the discussion. I classified him as an extremely polished SCORER.

Second, I didnt say better teammates. I literally said to put Demarcus Cousins on the team. Literally him. Having a big man that demands bodies on him would be HUGE for Kyrie. If you've seen a Cavs game you know how many great passes are wasted in the hands of the forwards and centers that cant finish. You give the ball to Cousins quicky in front of the rim, hes going to put it in. Also think of the prolonged possessions from offensive rebounds. He doesnt do a lot of handling either. Its a perfect fit that will only increase his output rather than decreasing the time the ball is in his hands. Next time you paraphrase opinions, take the time to read them as to not make other people look stupid for your own benefit.

flea
05-14-2012, 07:23 PM
I just don't understand the CP3 comparison at all.

It was Coach K that made that comparison. Take it up with one of the great basketball minds of all time if you disagree.

flea
05-14-2012, 07:25 PM
You can't keep using that as an excuse... when you're drafted you're on a clean slate with everyone else.. Age is no longer an excuse.. it's years of experience in the pros that matter.. not in college
Tell that to the guy below me trying to compare Durant's 2nd season to Irving's first because Irving was 20 for the last month of the season.


Dude just shut it. You jumped into a discussion that had nothing to do with you and now you're trying to act as if you are right. The other poster made a point it was debated we moved on.... either contribute to the DISCUSSION or stay out.

Well he's also right that it's his age 20 season, but even if Irving wasn't 20 for all but a month of this season it wouldn't be an apt comparison because of years in the league.

kenzo400
05-14-2012, 07:35 PM
He wont be the 2nd best PG in next year or within 2 years lol

So he will be better than Rose, D Will, Rondo, and Westbrook? Haha

He will be #6 best PG at the end of next year

He will probably the most complete point guard.

Westbrook is really a sg, Rose same thing. Rondo is limited because he can't shoot. So yes he has the chance to be a better pure point guard than all of them.

Sactown
05-14-2012, 07:38 PM
You need to do a little better job reading. If you're going to nitpick details so am I. I assume the two things I highlighted are directed towards my arguments, which you are reading absolutely incorrectly.

For the first one, he is by no means lacking athleticism or explosiveness. He is still a great athlete and (i forget the exact statistic or who did it), but Kyrie was in the top 6-8 in terms of speed with the ball. The comparison was made that he scores from pure skill rather than using the ELITE athleticism to simply beat defenders that a Derrick Rose or Russel Westbrook rely on. And if you paid a little more attention you would see that we were talking about OFFENSE. Defense wasnt even in the discussion. I classified him as an extremely polished SCORER.

Second, I didnt say better teammates. I literally said to put Demarcus Cousins on the team. Literally him. Having a big man that demands bodies on him would be HUGE for Kyrie. If you've seen a Cavs game you know how many great passes are wasted in the hands of the forwards and centers that cant finish. You give the ball to Cousins quicky in front of the rim, hes going to put it in. Also think of the prolonged possessions from offensive rebounds. He doesnt do a lot of handling either. Its a perfect fit that will only increase his output rather than decreasing the time the ball is in his hands. Next time you paraphrase opinions, take the time to read them as to not make other people look stupid for your own benefit.

Jrue, Rose, Wall, Westbrook, CP3, D-will, Rondo, are all far more athletic, and will always have a physical advantage on Irving..

Cousins will not make Irving shoot the ball more, or make him shoot 70-80% from the field. AND ADDING COUSINS is not going to make the 21st player in assists per game into the 3rd.. and I can guarantee that.

Swashcuff
05-14-2012, 07:40 PM
He will probably the most complete point guard.

Westbrook is really a sg, Rose same thing. Rondo is limited because he can't shoot. So yes he has the chance to be a better pure point guard than all of them.

So Steve Nash, Chris Paul and Deron Williams are all going to die or something?

How on earth is Rose an SG? :confused: As long as Rose was on the floor he was one of the elite assists men in the game.

Sactown
05-14-2012, 07:40 PM
And no way in hell is a player who is currently 49TH in the league in AST/TURN a top 10 PG let alone top 5

and in no way is DeMarcus Cousins going to turn a player who had 1 double double into a consistent double double threat....

IndiansFan337
05-15-2012, 12:02 AM
This was clearly well deserved. Even if Rubio played the full season and the Wolves played close to .500 ball, Irving still was much more deserving of this award.

NoahH
05-15-2012, 12:29 AM
Unanimous maybe?

b@llhog24
05-15-2012, 12:43 AM
Irving isn't a top 5 pg but he had a season that can be argued as top 5 for his position. Also I think people are taking the fact that he's had the best rookie season by a pg since probably Cp3 so its just an expected progression thing.

CP3 and Irvings rookie seasons aren't even comparable
CP3 was on a 38-44 win team and had significantly better stats on offense and defense. also, Irvings rookie season was marginally better than Thomas's and if Steph Curry wasn't in Don's dog house, he would of had a better rookie season. so everything in this post is suspect to me.
I said "since"

Hawkeye15
05-15-2012, 12:48 AM
easy choice

b@llhog24
05-15-2012, 12:59 AM
[QUOTE=MonroeFAN;22179805]
I just don't understand the CP3 comparison at all.

Its because their games are more predicated on skill rather than athletism.

JLynn943
05-15-2012, 01:32 AM
He had a great rookie season as the focal point of the team, so he deserved it. I certainly hope Isaiah Thomas takes second though given how well he played and that his advanced stats are right in line with Irving's.

ottograham14
05-15-2012, 01:22 PM
Iman Shumpert got a first place vote. Writers are hacks.

DerekRE_3
05-15-2012, 01:38 PM
The fact that Isaiah Thomas got 7th in voting is an absolute joke. Should have been top 3.

Hawkeye15
05-15-2012, 01:50 PM
The fact that Isaiah Thomas got 7th in voting is an absolute joke. Should have been top 3.

a lot of awards have become a joke. Get over it. When they left Love off the all rookie teams, I felt the same you do. The process is a joke for many of these awards. We either care too much, or the voters don't care enough.

DeyAce
05-15-2012, 02:03 PM
Faried?

Swashcuff
05-15-2012, 02:07 PM
Faried?

In 3rd place where he rightfully deserves to be. He's been exceptional for the Nuggets this season.

DerekRE_3
05-15-2012, 02:23 PM
a lot of awards have become a joke. Get over it. When they left Love off the all rookie teams, I felt the same you do. The process is a joke for many of these awards. We either care too much, or the voters don't care enough.

There's nothing for me to get over, just recognizing it's ********. Isaiah Thomas doesn't need validation.

Swashcuff
05-15-2012, 02:27 PM
There's nothing for me to get over, just recognizing it's ********. Isaiah Thomas doesn't need validation.

Where do you think he should have finished to deserve his recognition? I can see cases for everyone but Klay Thompson ahead of him.

Jarvo
05-15-2012, 02:37 PM
Been rooting for him since he played for my beloved Duke Blue Devils and now with the Cavs. He deserved it ! He's a damn beast!!

DerekRE_3
05-15-2012, 02:44 PM
I would have gone Irving, Faried, Thomas.

Thomas as a starter (37 games started)
15 PPG
5.4 APG
48% FG
40% 3PT
84% FT

He got better and better as the season went on. It's not like he did well his first 10 games starting and got figured out. In April, he averaged 14.7 points, 5.4 assists and just 1.4 turnovers per game in 32 minutes. 1.4 turnovers a game for a rookie point guard.

He was also pretty damn good on defense as well. He was ranked high on Synergy in pick and roll defense and post defense (4th for guards, a lot of teams try to post him since he's 5'9).

DerekRE_3
05-15-2012, 03:13 PM
Forgot to mention...

Kings without Isaiah in the starting lineup: 93 PPG
Kings with Isaiah in the starting lineup: 107 PPG

Hawkeye15
05-15-2012, 03:53 PM
Rubio still deserves that 2nd spot. When he went down, he was leading BY A VERY LARGE MARGIN all rookies in assists, steals, apg, spg, double doubles, was tied for Deron with most point/assist double doubles in the NBA, and was 1st in the NBA in assists in the 4th quarter in a landslide.

Faried, Thomas, and anyone else should not get in over him.

Rubio's team was 21-20 with him, 5-20 without him (Love and Pek missed a lot of time here too obviously). The Wolves were miles better defensively with Rubio on the floor, and Hollinger even had Rubio 2nd team all defense.

The right player won the award, but if Rubio had stayed healthy, it was a 2 man race.

ottograham14
05-15-2012, 04:15 PM
How in the blue hell did Josh Selby get a vote? Did a writer just look at his d-league stats and think that was enough for his vote which they aren't suppose to be voting in that league. That is too funny.

Sactown
05-15-2012, 08:26 PM
Rubio still deserves that 2nd spot. When he went down, he was leading BY A VERY LARGE MARGIN all rookies in assists, steals, apg, spg, double doubles, was tied for Deron with most point/assist double doubles in the NBA, and was 1st in the NBA in assists in the 4th quarter in a landslide.

Faried, Thomas, and anyone else should not get in over him.

Rubio's team was 21-20 with him, 5-20 without him (Love and Pek missed a lot of time here too obviously). The Wolves were miles better defensively with Rubio on the floor, and Hollinger even had Rubio 2nd team all defense.

The right player won the award, but if Rubio had stayed healthy, it was a 2 man race.
If Isaiah had gotten the start on game one it would of been a 1 man race. his advanced stats aren't very far behind Irvings, and his Synergy numbers are great as well... and Oh yeah... he didn't miss 25% of the season like those two did..

krazylegz
05-15-2012, 09:06 PM
He wont be the 2nd best PG in next year or within 2 years lol

So he will be better than Rose, D Will, Rondo, and Westbrook? Haha

He will be #6 best PG at the end of next year

possibility

Swashcuff
05-15-2012, 09:46 PM
If Isaiah had gotten the start on game one it would of been a 1 man race. his advanced stats aren't very far behind Irvings, and his Synergy numbers are great as well... and Oh yeah... he didn't miss 25% of the season like those two did..

Are you in any way suggesting that Thomas is better than Irving?

DerekRE_3
05-15-2012, 10:11 PM
Are you in any way suggesting that Thomas is better than Irving?

He shouldn't be. Though Isaiah did have a great game against Irving when they went head to head:

23 points
11 assists
8 boards

He also had his best game of the year against Tony Parker, and held him to 4-11 shooting and 9 points.

28 points
10 assists
4 boards

Isaiah is the real deal whether you analyze him with your eyes or advanced statistics.

Swashcuff
05-15-2012, 10:31 PM
He shouldn't be. Though Isaiah did have a great game against Irving when they went head to head:

23 points
11 assists
8 boards

He also had his best game of the year against Tony Parker, and held him to 4-11 shooting and 9 points.

28 points
10 assists
4 boards

Isaiah is the real deal whether you analyze him with your eyes or advanced statistics.

Head to head really doesn't mean very much when attempting to gauge one player's value vs anothers.

Tyreke is the real deal as well but for a host of different reasons he hasn't been the player that we all thought he would be. The guy is a rookie and had a very solid season but lets not get ahead of ourselves and anoint him the next big thing.

Same thing I said about Irving even earlier in this thread. Lets give these guys time before come to such conclusions.

I'm not being a naysayer or anything of the sort I'm just saying lets give it time. The same way we can't call Jimmer a bust after his first season lets not say Thomas is a top 10 PG (basically if someone is alluding that Thomas is better than Irving that's just what they're saying).

flea
05-15-2012, 10:38 PM
He shouldn't be. Though Isaiah did have a great game against Irving when they went head to head:

23 points
11 assists
8 boards

He also had his best game of the year against Tony Parker, and held him to 4-11 shooting and 9 points.

28 points
10 assists
4 boards

Isaiah is the real deal whether you analyze him with your eyes or advanced statistics.

Well it depends on how you define "the real deal." Do I think he'll be a decent NBA player, start a few years but better off in a bench role? Yes in that sense I think he's the real deal. I'm just having trouble seeing him suceeding as his team's best or second best option.

I'll call a 5'9 (but probably shorter) guard the real deal when he's scoring or assisting a higher volume of his team's points. Unfortunately, height in the NBA determines a lot (it's like a fastball in baseball). Yes you can succeed without it, but being 5'9 or shorter is like throwing 85 mph fastball. It's possible to succeed, but if you do you're one of only 3 or 4 in a generation to do it.

Sactown
05-15-2012, 10:46 PM
Are you in any way suggesting that Thomas is better than Irving?

No I'm saying that when you miss 25% of the season it should be enough to allow an upset

DerekRE_3
05-15-2012, 10:51 PM
Well it depends on how you define "the real deal." Do I think he'll be a decent NBA player, start a few years but better off in a bench role? Yes in that sense I think he's the real deal. I'm just having trouble seeing him suceeding as his team's best or second best option.

I'll call a 5'9 (but probably shorter) guard the real deal when he's scoring or assisting a higher volume of his team's points. Unfortunately, height in the NBA determines a lot (it's like a fastball in baseball). Yes you can succeed without it, but being 5'9 or shorter is like throwing 85 mph fastball. It's possible to succeed, but if you do you're one of only 3 or 4 in a generation to do it.

When I say real deal I mean he's no fluke. He's going to have a very solid 10 plus year career barring injury.

Isaiah's height has not hampered him at all by the way. His quickness more than makes up for it and he has a 40 plus vert. He's already the best perimeter defender on the team.

Swashcuff
05-15-2012, 10:54 PM
No I'm saying that when you miss 25% of the season it should be enough to allow an upset

That makes absolutely NO sense whatsoever. In the games in which he played he was just plain better than Thomas. From the outset he was the focal point of opposing defenses and yet still had a better season.

Sactown
05-15-2012, 10:56 PM
That makes absolutely NO sense whatsoever. In the games in which he played he was just plain better than Thomas. From the outset he was the focal point of opposing defenses and yet still had a better season.

he barely had a better season.. look at the stats

Swashcuff
05-15-2012, 11:02 PM
he barely had a better season.. look at the stats

The stats tell me Kyrie is a better shooter (not more efficient), a better passer, a wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more clutch player, better as a starter, etc.

They tell me as well that Thomas has been better defensively and really that's basically it.

Kyrie didn't barely have a better season he had a much better season. Thomas had a fantastic year for a player chosen at any place in the draft but you guys really are getting ahead of yourselves.

Sactown
05-15-2012, 11:31 PM
The stats tell me Kyrie is a better shooter (not more efficient), a better passer, a wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more clutch player, better as a starter, etc.

They tell me as well that Thomas has been better defensively and really that's basically it.

Kyrie didn't barely have a better season he had a much better season. Thomas had a fantastic year for a player chosen at any place in the draft but you guys really are getting ahead of yourselves.

they tell you Irving is #49 in assist to turnover ratio at 1.75... they tell you Isiah matches him in WS/48 and his ORtg is much higher his ASST% is higher while his Turn% is much lower they tell you that Isaiah matches Irving in every single advanced statistic and didn't miss 1/4 the season... you're getting ahead of yourself

Swashcuff
05-15-2012, 11:48 PM
they tell you Irving is #49 in assist to turnover ratio at 1.75... they tell you Isiah matches him in WS/48 and his ORtg is much higher his ASST% is higher while his Turn% is much lower they tell you that Isaiah matches Irving in every single advanced statistic and didn't miss 1/4 the season... you're getting ahead of yourself

Dude seriously you're going to make me repeat myself? Sigh. Here we go.

For starters Kyrie's AST% is MUCH better than that of Thomas's. Which is the major reason why he PER is also much better than that of Thomas's.

Isaiah does not match Kyrie in every single advanced category. Kyrie has a better PER and a better AST% and in both by considerable margins.

If you really want a make a sound statistical case for Thomas you can do a much better job than you're currently doing however in quoting so many incorrect stats.

flea
05-15-2012, 11:55 PM
It's just a couple Kings fans dreaming. I'm a Hornets fan so I'm probably the least biased person here, but that won't stop the homers.

thekmp211
05-16-2012, 12:11 AM
all sactown is saying is, let kyrie become elite before calling him elite. he has all the tools, and the projections and i have no doubt that barring injury he will solidify his place amongst the top PG's in the next 1-3. i don't think thomas will do that or that sactown thinks that.

just that kyrie's season, great as it was, does not constitute the rankings people are placing him in RIGHT NOW. right now, he's not a top pg. but he sure projects to be one soon.

well that's how i interpret it. he can speak for himself of course.

Swashcuff
05-16-2012, 12:15 AM
all sactown is saying is, let kyrie become elite before calling him elite. he has all the tools, and the projections and i have no doubt that barring injury he will solidify his place amongst the top PG's in the next 1-3. i don't think thomas will do that or that sactown thinks that.

just that kyrie's season, great as it was, does not constitute the rankings people are placing him in RIGHT NOW. right now, he's not a top pg. but he sure projects to be one soon.

I think you mean Swashcuff bro. That's all I was trying to get through to some guys earlier in this thread. What Sactown is saying is that Kyrie doesn't deserve to be ROY because he missed 15 games this season despite the fact that he was the best rookie. In his opinion no matter how good you are if you miss 15 games you're not the ROY.

Sactown
05-16-2012, 12:46 AM
I think you mean Swashcuff bro. That's all I was trying to get through to some guys earlier in this thread. What Sactown is saying is that Kyrie doesn't deserve to be ROY because he missed 15 games this season despite the fact that he was the best rookie. In his opinion no matter how good you are if you miss 15 games you're not the ROY.

I did **** up the asst% and that's not what I'm saying.. Isaiah has a superior AST/Turn Ratio especially if you just consider his starting number and his synergy defensive stats are surprisingly good, and that's why the practically share the same WS/48 number.. I was saying Irving is over hyped and not a top 3 PG and yes he missed a large PERCENTAGE of games this season. And I didn't say he didn't deserve to not be ROY..

HawkEye was saying it was a 2 man race if you eliminate injuries, and I SAID the same thing could be said IF Isaiah started from day one.. saying that you can't bring up "What If's" because it changes the outcome drastically, and clearly this guy got my message and you're not... I'm saying Irving advanced statistics don't put him in the CP3 discussion even when CP3 was a Rookie.. that they barely put him ahead of Isaiah and that he has a lot of growing to do...

Sactown
05-16-2012, 01:39 AM
I also hate how much of a landslide it was...

Kenneth Faried put up
Per 21.9 TS% .618 ORtg 123 DRtg 103 WS/48 .212, He also played meaningful minutes on a playoff team.. Knock on him is 46 games.

Kawhi Leonard put up
Per 16.6 TS% .573 ORtg 119 DRtg 101 WS/48 .171 Another playoff starter playing meaningful minutes. Played 64 games

Irving of course
Per 21.4 TS% .566 ORtg 109 DRtg 110 WS/48 .125 Played 51 games on a garbage team

IT again
Per. 17.6 TS% .574 ORtg 116 DRtg 113 WS/48 .124 Played 64 games on a garbage team


How is anyone a run away candidate?

thekmp211
05-16-2012, 01:51 AM
I think you mean Swashcuff bro. That's all I was trying to get through to some guys earlier in this thread. What Sactown is saying is that Kyrie doesn't deserve to be ROY because he missed 15 games this season despite the fact that he was the best rookie. In his opinion no matter how good you are if you miss 15 games you're not the ROY.

well back at the beginning i'd mentioned pumping the breaks on calling kyrie a total bawse just yet and i think that he brought up isaiah up to illustrate that? dunno about what you guys were debating. beers not tears.

thekmp211
05-16-2012, 01:55 AM
I also hate how much of a landslide it was...

Kenneth Faried put up
Per 21.9 TS% .618 ORtg 123 DRtg 103 WS/48 .212, He also played meaningful minutes on a playoff team.. Knock on him is 46 games.

Kawhi Leonard put up
Per 16.6 TS% .573 ORtg 119 DRtg 101 WS/48 .171 Another playoff starter playing meaningful minutes. Played 64 games

Irving of course
Per 21.4 TS% .566 ORtg 109 DRtg 110 WS/48 .125 Played 51 games on a garbage team

IT again
Per. 17.6 TS% .574 ORtg 116 DRtg 113 WS/48 .124 Played 64 games on a garbage team


How is anyone a run away candidate?

ok i see now. those guys were role players. kyrie stepped into a leading role and didn't completely collapse. quite the contrary he thrived. those guys grew into their roles, and even in their less important, less sustained roles never reached the level of excellence that irving did.

i mean i'm sure most voters didn't just pick irving without thinking. but you don't have to submit your reasoning with your vote so we'll never know.

ottograham14
05-16-2012, 08:04 AM
Irving isn't a top 5 PG in the league at this point but has the ability and drive to become one possibly in a couple years.

Sacramento fans love their team and will fight till the end trying to prove their players.

Fans think the voting shouldn't have been a landslide but people that get paid to do this for a living and who have probably watched more games than any of us do think it should have been.

These are the things that I have learned from this thread.

RenegadeRiot36
05-16-2012, 01:18 PM
Ask yourself if Isiah Thomas is your #1 option if the clock is ticking down. Do you him to control the outcome? I dont think so. Kyrie was one of the top 4th quarter players in league this season and showed the ability to singlehandedly take over the game. No other rookie, including Rubio, has shown to have that ability.

kobemelo
05-16-2012, 01:57 PM
Congrats to Kyrie, really good year. BUT I think a healthy Rubio or full time starter (for the whole year) Faried woulda been ROY over him. It didn't play out that way though.