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thekmp211
05-13-2012, 02:55 PM
continuation thread. he's been balling, and his playoff performances were a big part of the debate around his value as a player.

how do we take his (for the most part) brilliance in context to the season and his career? i know how i feel, what about ya'll? is he establishing himself as a bona fide star? what's his value? discuss.

Cfrey
05-13-2012, 03:01 PM
the hawks

Donuts365
05-13-2012, 03:01 PM
hes a star close thread

Corey
05-13-2012, 03:02 PM
3-10 from the floor last night on shot attempts outside 5 feet.

He still has the same flaws.

JWO35
05-13-2012, 03:05 PM
Top 3 PG




/thread

thekmp211
05-13-2012, 03:07 PM
^^ find the original thread gang. simply put, that is not the consensus.

re: jumpers, struggled but hit three straight mid range shots in the clutch. it's possible!

if he can just learn to shoot at the line, i can live with the rest. he is terrified of being fouled in the 4th quarter and it shows.

Meaze_Gibson
05-13-2012, 03:08 PM
Name should be The Director. all around pg. great defender. elite passer. however he overpasses when he should take shots and is not totally dependable in clutch moments of 4th quarter. Top 5-6 pg. Without the Famers I think he'd be around a 17,10,5 player on 42% from field

Corey
05-13-2012, 03:13 PM
^^ find the original thread gang. simply put, that is not the consensus.

re: jumpers, struggled but hit three straight mid range shots in the clutch. it's possible!

if he can just learn to shoot at the line, i can live with the rest. he is terrified of being fouled in the 4th quarter and it shows.

Yep. 54% from the FT line in the post season.

Nighthawk
05-13-2012, 03:35 PM
If Kobe or Lebron were recording triple doubles at Rondos rate this whole forum would explode. Sure Rondo has flaws. But I can give u flaws for everyone in the NBA. Rondo is a top PG in this league.

Corey
05-13-2012, 03:40 PM
A top what? Top 7? Top 5? Top 3?

raiderposting
05-13-2012, 03:49 PM
Chris Paul
Derrick Rose
Deron Williams
Rondo
Westbrook

Rondo needs a jumper

Chronz
05-13-2012, 03:59 PM
If Kobe or Lebron were recording triple doubles at Rondos rate this whole forum would explode. Sure Rondo has flaws. But I can give u flaws for everyone in the NBA. Rondo is a top PG in this league.

Well yea because in all likelihood it would be accompanied by efficient scoring aka a COMPLETE game.

Hustlenomics
05-13-2012, 06:40 PM
3-10 from the floor last night on shot attempts outside 5 feet.

He still has the same flaws.


Yep. 54% from the FT line in the post season.


A top what? Top 7? Top 5? Top 3?

lol

JayW_1023
05-13-2012, 06:43 PM
I'm sick of the whole 'the best' argument. Who cares if Rondo isn't the best PG.


He is by far the most special, most compelling player in this entire league. He does things on the court no other player can do.

He is the ballsiest player for sure...how many 6'1 skinny guys crash the offensive glass like he does?

This whole 'the best' thing is a :horse: almost as much as comparing teams with individual matchups.

JayW_1023
05-13-2012, 06:49 PM
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304203604577394332482610896.html

This article says everything you NEED to know about Rondo. His flaws are what makes his game so incredibly fascinating to watch.

And the strange thing, when it matters most, he DOES seem to hit those jumpers he is always accused of not being able to make.

Rajon Rondo is one of those guys whose impact goes beyond stats. He can dominate a game without scoring a single point. And that's what makes him such a great player, as opposed to a flawed player.

IMO.

JayW_1023
05-13-2012, 06:52 PM
Rajon Rondo makes me want to WATCH the game of basketball as opposed to analyzing it. And few other players can do that.

Only Manu, Kidd and Nash play the game with equal amount of grace and craftiness.

I don't normally want to display this kind of arrogance but: "/thread"

HYFR
05-13-2012, 09:02 PM
Dude juss controls the game for them, hes a stud.

Corey
05-13-2012, 09:41 PM
lol

Care to explain what's funny?

Everything I stated is 100% accurate.

Are you going to try to spin the fact that he's shooting 54% from the FT line, or he shot 3-10 from outside 5 feet last night? Both of those are facts.

He's a poor jumpshooter, and hasn't improved at all in that area since the Celtics won the title in 2007/8

bagwell368
05-13-2012, 09:55 PM
If Kobe or Lebron were recording triple doubles at Rondos rate this whole forum would explode. Sure Rondo has flaws. But I can give u flaws for everyone in the NBA. Rondo is a top PG in this league.

Most players with triple doubles have something like a 28/12/12 and have nice efficiency on the 28 points.

When Rondo gets a triple double its often a 13/12/16 sort of game with meh or poor shooting percentages and almost as often 5+ turnovers.

Besides a player is what his average says. Not his best games. Rondo is notorious for not playing hard against weaker teams or teams not on National TV.

Just what the young Celts coming up after the big 3 are gone DO NOT NEED to see - crappy practice habits (been mentioned by Doc), and inconsistent effort. He's not a leader, he's not consistent, and god knows he is not great.

No way he's a top 3 PG, in no year has he ever been. 2008-2009 he was a top 5, even tossing out his crappy rookie year he's a #7-8 on average. His last two years he's notably worse then the two prior years.

bagwell368
05-13-2012, 10:04 PM
I'm sick of the whole 'the best' argument. Who cares if Rondo isn't the best PG.

He isn't even near the best.


He is by far the most special, most compelling player in this entire league. He does things on the court no other player can do.

But he doesn't do it every game. He's wildly inconsistent. He's moody and sometimes emotionally off the wall. His two coaches back to Freshman year in college have labelled him IN PUBLIC as uncoachable. Doc has said he won't practice the way he wants. Ainge has had him on the block several times. Who cares what he looks like in a highlights reel. That's the problem with too much of audience - they think that's the game - dunks - spectacular passes. That's a sliver of the game, and Rondo is simply not great. If you enjoy him that's great. I enjoy him sometimes.


He is the ballsiest player for sure...how many 6'1 skinny guys crash the offensive glass like he does?

Sometimes he abandons his defensive responsibilities to do that, and it costs his team if they can't control the board. He also does not drive the lame nearly as much as he has in the past. I think that's a mix of not wanting to fail at the line and not wanting to be hurt because he gets crushed.

bagwell368
05-13-2012, 10:05 PM
Care to explain what's funny?

Everything I stated is 100% accurate.

Are you going to try to spin the fact that he's shooting 54% from the FT line, or he shot 3-10 from outside 5 feet last night? Both of those are facts.

He's a poor jumpshooter, and hasn't improved at all in that area since the Celtics won the title in 2007/8

And his FT shooting has regressed these past two years.

bagwell368
05-13-2012, 10:12 PM
And the strange thing, when it matters most, he DOES seem to hit those jumpers he is always accused of not being able to make.

Rubbish, too much Kool-Aid. He misses jumpers - it's documented. You are trying to say that they don't matter because he hits them when it counts.... lol


Rajon Rondo is one of those guys whose impact goes beyond stats. He can dominate a game without scoring a single point. And that's what makes him such a great player, as opposed to a flawed player.

IMO.

Sorry, you are talking about a Larry Bird type player and Rondo isn't fit to touch to bottom of Larry's sneakers in those ways. Rondo does not play hard every game. Bird would never sleep walk though 14 out of 16 games after the Perk trade because his "pal" was dealt. He would never be called uncoachable, nor would he hang up practicing foul shoots until he had mastered it. Rondo is going backwards!!

Rondo is far from great. He has great moments. But no player that gets banned from his teams film room for trying to damage equipment, doesn't show up to play ever game is a leader or is great. Also Rondo missed about 20% of his season this year (2 games due to throwing a ball at an official), and got 8th in MVP voting? Joke. KG and PP were both easily more valuable to the Celts then Rondo this year. RR is the flavor at the moment.

bagwell368
05-13-2012, 10:19 PM
I don't normally want to display this kind of arrogance but: "/thread"

It's cool you are into him. Rondo to me is far too error prone and emotionally fragile/reactive for my blood, and he's started to show signs of being physically fragile too boot.

Danny should trade him while he's still able to get something worthwhile back.

RR cannot score enough at a high enough efficiency rate to be the #1 or #2 on a team - something he may be shortly. He's been brought along with 3 HOF players that are killer scorers. When they go and are not replaced, Rondo will be called on to lead, score, play hard every night. I simply do not believe he has it in him.

Hustlenomics
05-13-2012, 10:24 PM
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304203604577394332482610896.html

This article says everything you NEED to know about Rondo. His flaws are what makes his game so incredibly fascinating to watch.

And the strange thing, when it matters most, he DOES seem to hit those jumpers he is always accused of not being able to make.

Rajon Rondo is one of those guys whose impact goes beyond stats. He can dominate a game without scoring a single point. And that's what makes him such a great player, as opposed to a flawed player.

IMO.


Rajon Rondo makes me want to WATCH the game of basketball as opposed to analyzing it. And few other players can do that.

Only Manu, Kidd and Nash play the game with equal amount of grace and craftiness.

I don't normally want to display this kind of arrogance but: "/thread"


Dude juss controls the game for them, hes a stud.

respect.

VCaintdead17
05-13-2012, 10:26 PM
Paul
Williams
Rose
Russy
Parker
Nash
Lowry

then Rondo

bbal995
05-13-2012, 10:32 PM
I was a huge Rondo detractor. But right now I am kind of understanding his hype. Bagwell, I'd mention all of the points you make in his criticism. You are spot on. But the thing is that he doesn't really need to do any of those things you mention. He is on a team perfectly suited to his play. He doesn't need to shoot jumpers since he has some of the best shooters in the NBA in his team. All he needs to do is pass the ball, and he does that amazingly well.

It will be interesting to see how his career pans out once he leaves the Celtics or once either Pierce or Garnett retire. Then maybe we will see some of his flaws become more visible. But right now he is one of the best point guards in the NBA.

Redskins10
05-13-2012, 10:46 PM
Rondo's an amazing player. People don't like him because of his off the court issues, but that shouldn't cloud your vision. A little objectivity would be appreciated.

LGhost
05-13-2012, 10:57 PM
Fuggit stats... My favorite point guards are

Rose
Rondo

It's been that way for a while now. Irving will most likely be making his way onto that list next... Wall might earn a spot in the future if those missing pieces start to click in his head.

Rondo is absolutely incredible with how he makes everything he does look easy. He controls the tempo, he knows how to get others involved, he knows when to shoot or when to pass... He is one of the most intelligent players in the league and his timing and decision making is even more impressive. He makes sure all his players are playing within their comfort zone. Like I said, he makes it look easy.

ne3xchamps
05-13-2012, 10:57 PM
3-10 from the floor last night on shot attempts outside 5 feet.

He still has the same flaws.

agreed. But, if he ever starts making his jump shots consistently, WOW. :speechless:

There would be no way to slow him down.

ne3xchamps
05-13-2012, 11:05 PM
I was a huge Rondo detractor. But right now I am kind of understanding his hype. Bagwell, I'd mention all of the points you make in his criticism. You are spot on. But the thing is that he doesn't really need to do any of those things you mention. He is on a team perfectly suited to his play. He doesn't need to shoot jumpers since he has some of the best shooters in the NBA in his team. All he needs to do is pass the ball, and he does that amazingly well.

It will be interesting to see how his career pans out once he leaves the Celtics or once either Pierce or Garnett retire. Then maybe we will see some of his flaws become more visible. But right now he is one of the best point guards in the NBA.


You are right on with that. That's the definition of a true pg. Granted it would be nice if he shot better, but he dictates the offense well, and gets his teammates the ball at the best opportunity for them to score. That's all you can ask from you PG, IMO.

bagwell368
05-13-2012, 11:21 PM
I was a huge Rondo detractor. But right now I am kind of understanding his hype. Bagwell, I'd mention all of the points you make in his criticism. You are spot on. But the thing is that he doesn't really need to do any of those things you mention. He is on a team perfectly suited to his play. He doesn't need to shoot jumpers since he has some of the best shooters in the NBA in his team. All he needs to do is pass the ball, and he does that amazingly well.

Two points:

1. If Rondo shot well it would take pressure of his passing game and the other players on the floor since his defender wouldn't be off defending passing lanes or dropping a double on a big. If Rondo was a league average PG in terms of shooting from outside, then he'd be more valuable to his team and there is and can be no counter argument.

2. I'm a Celts fan, and I am looking ahead to his nice 3 HOF'er team retiring/leaving and shortly. Mid 1st round draft picks are notorious for not producing HOF level talent. Rondo's short coming with his shot will be even more exposed because he'll be needed more. He's also not a consistent leader figure on the team, but more of an emotionally volatile trick-or-treat type player.


It will be interesting to see how his career pans out once he leaves the Celtics or once either Pierce or Garnett retire. Then maybe we will see some of his flaws become more visible. But right now he is one of the best point guards in the NBA.

This was a weak year for PG's IMO, and Rondo is not in the top 6. He's more in the 7-8 range. That's not one of the best, that's above average to very good.

69centers
05-13-2012, 11:22 PM
Most players with triple doubles have something like a 28/12/12 and have nice efficiency on the 28 points.

When Rondo gets a triple double its often a 13/12/16 sort of game with meh or poor shooting percentages and almost as often 5+ turnovers.

LMAO at criticizing the stats from his triple doubles. :laugh2:

Note to bagwell: nobody cares about the shooting % or turnovers of someone who gets a triple double, just like nobody cares about how many times someone strikes out who hits a grand slam, or how many face offs the hockey player lost who had a hat trick. This would be minute stats that only nitpickers dwell on. This and the 5 straight posts (which is spamming according to most internet forum rules) just proves you're a Rondo hater/stalker.

Karl Malone has the most turnovers in NBA history. Does anyone ever talk about that or his 2nd best scoring in NBA history??

I've never heard such a pessimistic Debbie Downer in all my life. Get over this Rondo hate, dude, it's getting scary.

bagwell368
05-13-2012, 11:24 PM
Rondo's an amazing player. People don't like him because of his off the court issues, but that shouldn't cloud your vision. A little objectivity would be appreciated.

He doesn't get up for some games, he may have tossed away the Celts chances last year by pouting over the Perkins deal. How is that off court? His FT% is getting WORSE, not better - how is that off court? He missed nearly 20% of his teams games so far - 3 of them due to throwing a ball at a ref (2), and the other for bumping a ref (1). Is that off court?

No wonder Ainge has had him on the block 2-3 times the past few years. A little objectivity would be much appreciated.

bagwell368
05-13-2012, 11:37 PM
LMAO at criticizing the stats from his triple doubles.

You might see criticism, I was describing the nature of a lot of his triple doubles.


Note to bagwell: nobody cares about the shooting % or turnovers of someone who gets a triple double,

Wait... you are writing a note to me in a post to me?

Maybe light weight fans with little real knowledge of the sport might feel that way, but turnovers and missed shots (w/o the Celts getting the board - also a turnover) can have a massive effect on the game. Really pathetic.


just like nobody cares about how many times someone strikes out who hits a grand slam, or how many face offs the hockey player lost who had a hat trick.

If you are a Manager or Coach in those sports you care and if they are serious enough an issue you deal with them. I'm sorry I'm not just a straight fan, I look at games as a former D1A player would and as a former Coach does. Just because you don't care, or see the import of various issues does not mean that they are not there.


This would be minute stats that only nitpickers dwell on.

turnovers and missed shots are not nitpicker issues. They are among the earliest reported stats in the sport, and among the most mentioned by broadcasters, writers, and fans alike.


This and the 5 straight posts (which is spamming according to most internet forum rules) just proves you're a Rondo hater/stalker.

I am part of about 7 boards on PSD, I don't keep flipping between them every 3 minutes to see what is going on, when I come across a thread I have posted in with something like a dozen new posts in them, some aimed at my prior posts, I usually answer. If I am breaking some rule then I should be notified, and if I am not, you shouldn't even be bringing it up. You are a mod, yet you constantly let your feelings drive your words. Is there a rule against that?


Karl Malone has the most turnovers in NBA history. Does anyone ever talk about that or his 2nd best scoring in NBA history??

Rondo is now being mentioned with Karl Malone?


I've never heard such a pessimistic Debbie Downer in all my life. Get over this Rondo hate, dude, it's getting scary.

i don't take instructions from you, but this post has been very informative. I now understand the depth of your understanding of the sport.

Surprised you didn't quote some "experts" as you did earlier. I also see why you depend on the words and thoughts of others.

What's that word that suggests itself? Oh yeah: f r a u d

kvrnm
05-13-2012, 11:50 PM
bagwell is so nausiating to listen to. u hate on rondo way too much. we knw what he isnt good at but without him WHERE ARE WE

Hawkeye15
05-14-2012, 12:11 AM
bagwell actually provides rational and reason to his posts, unlike many of you.

Hawkeye15
05-14-2012, 12:12 AM
he is also dead on regarding Rondo.

b@llhog24
05-14-2012, 12:12 AM
Paul
Williams
Rose
Russy
Parker
Nash
Lowry

then Rondo
Add Kyrie to that list too.


Fuggit stats... My favorite point guards are

Rose
Rondo

It's been that way for a while now. Irving will most likely be making his way onto that list next... Wall might earn a spot in the future if those missing pieces start to click in his head.

Rondo is absolutely incredible with how he makes everything he does look easy. He controls the tempo, he knows how to get others involved, he knows when to shoot or when to pass... He is one of the most intelligent players in the league and his timing and decision making is even more impressive. He makes sure all his players are playing within their comfort zone. Like I said, he makes it look easy.

Just had to :drool:


I was a huge Rondo detractor. But right now I am kind of understanding his hype. Bagwell, I'd mention all of the points you make in his criticism. You are spot on. But the thing is that he doesn't really need to do any of those things you mention. He is on a team perfectly suited to his play. He doesn't need to shoot jumpers since he has some of the best shooters in the NBA in his team. All he needs to do is pass the ball, and he does that amazingly well.

It will be interesting to see how his career pans out once he leaves the Celtics or once either Pierce or Garnett retire. Then maybe we will see some of his flaws become more visible. But right now he is one of the best point guards in the NBA.

That's why what he does isn't nearly as impressive as some of the other pgs in the league, he's in a system PERFECT or just about as perfect of a player of his skillset.


Rondo's an amazing player. People don't like him because of his off the court issues, but that shouldn't cloud your vision. A little objectivity would be appreciated.

Can the Rondo apologists do this however?

Corey
05-14-2012, 01:27 AM
Paul
Williams
Rose
Russy
Parker
Nash
Lowry

then Rondo

Pretty much. I might put him over Lowry, but that's a good list.

thekmp211
05-14-2012, 01:45 AM
he is also dead on regarding Rondo.

what do you guys think would happen if we switched ty lawson and rondo? na' mean?

edit: say what you will about his teammates talent, their style of play is NOT a good fit with him at all. that's why i ask the above question. would he flourish on a deep, young up tempo team? considering the fast breaks he eeks out with these old farts in boston, imagine what he'd do with that team in denver?

b@llhog24
05-14-2012, 01:49 AM
what do you guys think would happen if we switched ty lawson and rondo? na' mean?

edit: say what you will about his teammates talent, their style of play is NOT a good fit with him at all. that's why i ask the above question. would he flourish on a deep, young up tempo team? considering the fast breaks he eeks out with these old farts in boston, imagine what he'd do with that team in denver?

Both teams would suffer but Denver would suffer more imo.

thekmp211
05-14-2012, 01:58 AM
Both teams would suffer but Denver would suffer more imo.

disagree. i actually think both teams would benefit, with boston having the greater potential. you can surround him with true 3 point shooters and athletic big men to lob and fast break with.

the celtics on the other hand struggled to score at times this season. i dunno if you noticed but rondo isn't the most reliable go to scorer. when the offense, and then he fell through we got into big trouble. lawson could alleviate that, and still do enough of what rondo does in terms of pick and roll, pick and pop, and fast break plays. no one would suffer from the dip.

denver, pretty much all of those guys could stand to improve off the ball with rondo passing. look what andre miller does with those bigs, and they have more shooters than boston. he's arguably a worse shooter than rondo. does their offense suffer with him in the game?

what makes his play amazing this year, to me, is that in spite of this, a gimpy ray allen and a generally thinner team than he's had in years, he led the league in assists and he, KG, pierce and doc have this team looking like it has one run left in the tank. and i see that as those guys finally having that trust in him to be one of the main dudes. we know they at least have a punchers chance against miami if/when the two sides meet.

the other thing is, if you really think rondo sucks, shouldn't you be the one arguing some of my above points? sounds like ya just want to bash him and his TS% without thought.

i don't care what the numbers say about "regression", he's the same inconsistent shooter he always was but he stepped up to become a leader of the team this year despite all his/boston's flaws. that's improvement.

bagwell368
05-14-2012, 05:52 AM
bagwell is so nausiating to listen to. u hate on rondo way too much. we knw what he isnt good at but without him WHERE ARE WE

Obviously on balance the team is better off with him, then a hole on the roster (d'uh), the questions are:

1. is Rondo great?
2. would the Celts be better off by trading him?
3. will he be able to lead this team post Big 3?
4. was he the 8th most valuable player in teh NBA this year?

I have no, depends, unlikely, and NFW

That's called an evaluation. There is no hate, just disgust aimed at the fans that use the word "great" to describe him, the fans that use the results of one game to trumpet his shooting has improved (but then go dead silent if he's under 40% the next 3 games in a row). It's great being a fan, but, when you avoid truth you don't want to acknowledge...? Then the words blind and lemming come to mind.

Sportfan
05-14-2012, 06:26 AM
Most players with triple doubles have something like a 28/12/12 and have nice efficiency on the 28 points.
.

errr, of the 21 triple doubles this year only 1 had more than 25 points (melo, chances are it was inefficient too) and only 1 had a 12/12 line (rondo!)

xnick5757
05-14-2012, 06:45 AM
And his FT shooting has regressed these past two years.

not true:

10: 3.5 FTA/.621 FT%
11: 1.9 FTA/.568 FT%
12: 3.4 FTA/.597 FT%

LGhost
05-14-2012, 06:46 AM
Most players with triple doubles have something like a 28/12/12 and have nice efficiency on the 28 points.

When Rondo gets a triple double its often a 13/12/16 sort of game with meh or poor shooting percentages and almost as often 5+ turnovers.


Practically all of Rondo's 20 triples doubles, he was +30 efficiency, some +40, none below +20...

19-20 of Rondo's triple doubles resulted in a win.

The only lost game was that epic 2OT game 4 in the first round of the 08-09 playoffs against the Bulls, they only lost by 3 and Rondo still won the match up against Rose.

What exactly is your best argument that you feel most confident against Rondo?

bagwell368
05-14-2012, 07:18 AM
errr, of the 21 triple doubles this year only 1 had more than 25 points (melo, chances are it was inefficient too) and only 1 had a 12/12 line (rondo!)

That's why I said "something like". How about you report back on the average FG% of the other players combined that did it vs. Rondo? That would be interesting. Then the FT% as well.

bagwell368
05-14-2012, 07:19 AM
19-20 of Rondo's triple doubles resulted in a win.

Oh? He won the games by himself? Neat trick.


What exactly is your best argument that you feel most confident against Rondo?

Just about all of them:

1. FG% outside the paint - very poor
2. 3 PT% - very poor
3. FT% - hideous for a starting guard (and GETTING WORSE)
4. Doesn't get up for every game'
5. Pouted away for a 16 game period after the Perk deal (and admitted after he let it get to him)
6. Stubborn (his college coach, Doc, Ainge) have all said so - this includes not practicing as asked
7. Too easily gives in to emotion (bumping ref, throwing ball at ref, throwing bottle at screen in film room (all this within the last year). Now the minor, but telling cameraman issue the other day.
8. In the future, he's going to have to lead the Celts or be the #2 perhaps. He doesn't have the offense to step up his scoring (efficiently), he lacks the emotional stability so far (not good in his sixth year) to be a leader either. His frequent moods and games off are a horrible example to young players and will over time build resentment and lack of respect for him as a player in the organization.

He's a classic passer and distributor - in particular when his head is into the game, but somehow his fans in particular look at "great passer and distributor" being equivalent to great "PG", which is equivalent to great player. And that isn't so. He's a great defender (when he doesn't cheat off and try to over produce steals - which he does both of too much). He's also a fine rebounder - for a PG - but sometimes he ignores his defensive responsibilities going after offensive glass - not a problem if the Celts get them - but a largely ignored problem that results in transition buckets fairly often.

So, the deal is he's a mixed bag. I'll stop pointing out Rondo's shortcomings when his fans stop being irrationally positive about him, and ignoring his flaws - which are serious.

bagwell368
05-14-2012, 07:52 AM
not true:

10: 3.5 FTA/.621 FT%
11: 1.9 FTA/.568 FT%
12: 3.4 FTA/.597 FT%

Totally true. As I have written lots of times, his first four years in the league he was at:

.647
.611
.642
.621

which for a starting guard is poor on average, but these last two years:

.568
.597

are both collectively and individually worse then each and every of his 4 prior years, how is that not a regression?

Look at his advanced stats:

TS%: .472, .515, .543, .540, .495, .483

eFG%: .424, .496, .514, .517, .482, .456

In both cases after a poor rookie season shooting the ball, he jumped up the next 3 years (in 2008-2010 is when I made arguments that he was on a HOF trajectory), but followed up with two poor years in what should be the heart of the prime of his career.

That's regression - plain and simple.

b@llhog24
05-14-2012, 08:01 AM
disagree. i actually think both teams would benefit, with boston having the greater potential. you can surround him with true 3 point shooters and athletic big men to lob and fast break with.

the celtics on the other hand struggled to score at times this season. i dunno if you noticed but rondo isn't the most reliable go to scorer. when the offense, and then he fell through we got into big trouble. lawson could alleviate that, and still do enough of what rondo does in terms of pick and roll, pick and pop, and fast break plays. no one would suffer from the dip.

denver, pretty much all of those guys could stand to improve off the ball with rondo passing. look what andre miller does with those bigs, and they have more shooters than boston. he's arguably a worse shooter than rondo. does their offense suffer with him in the game?

what makes his play amazing this year, to me, is that in spite of this, a gimpy ray allen and a generally thinner team than he's had in years, he led the league in assists and he, KG, pierce and doc have this team looking like it has one run left in the tank. and i see that as those guys finally having that trust in him to be one of the main dudes. we know they at least have a punchers chance against miami if/when the two sides meet.

the other thing is, if you really think rondo sucks, shouldn't you be the one arguing some of my above points? sounds like ya just want to bash him and his TS% without thought.

i don't care what the numbers say about "regression", he's the same inconsistent shooter he always was but he stepped up to become a leader of the team this year despite all his/boston's flaws. that's improvement.

It's not that I'm saying your opinion on this subject is wrong it just doesn't coincide with mines. For instance while Lawson is obviously the better scorer (vastly superior shooter btw) he probably can't create the amount of quality shots that Rondo can for Boston, also he wouldn't fit in as well with the teams defensive culture. While Denver is a team that lacks any quality spacing tied for 23rd in 3 point percentage, which in turn would make it harder for Rondo to get into the lane and hinders his facilitating ability. Lawson also is one of the teams prime time scorers. Last point I don't think Rondo sucks, I never think I've even said that and if I did it was hyperbole, I just don't believe he a is a clear cut top 7 pg.


Oh? He won the games by himself? Neat trick.



Just about all of them:

1. FG% outside the paint - very poor
2. 3 PT% - very poor
3. FT% - hideous for a starting guard (and GETTING WORSE)
4. Doesn't get up for every game'
5. Pouted away for a 16 game period after the Perk deal (and admitted after he let it get to him)
6. Stubborn (his college coach, Doc, Ainge) have all said so - this includes not practicing as asked
7. Too easily gives in to emotion (bumping ref, throwing ball at ref, throwing bottle at screen in film room (all this within the last year). Now the minor, but telling cameraman issue the other day.
8. In the future, he's going to have to lead the Celts or be the #2 perhaps. He doesn't have the offense to step up his scoring (efficiently), he lacks the emotional stability so far (not good in his sixth year) to be a leader either. His frequent moods and games off are a horrible example to young players and will over time build resentment and lack of respect for him as a player in the organization.

He's a classic passer and distributor - in particular when his head is into the game, but somehow his fans in particular look at "great passer and distributor" being equivalent to great "PG", which is equivalent to great player. And that isn't so. He's a great defender (when he doesn't cheat off and try to over produce steals - which he does both of too much). He's also a fine rebounder - for a PG - but sometimes he ignores his defensive responsibilities going after offensive glass - not a problem if the Celts get them - but a largely ignored problem that results in transition buckets fairly often.

So, the deal is he's a mixed bag. I'll stop pointing out Rondo's shortcomings when his fans stop being irrationally positive about him, and ignoring his flaws - which are serious.

:clap:

celtNYpatsHeels
05-14-2012, 11:02 AM
Rondo is extremely unique. He is one of the three players in the NBA (Rondo, Paul, Nash) that can continuously give his teammates open jumpers and easy baskets. His flaws are well documented and quite honestly too documented. Yes he cannot shoot, yes he is frustrating to watch when he refuses to pass up a jumper at the end of quarters. But his skill set is completely unique in the NBA today.

Is he the best PG in the NBA? probably not. Who knows where he ranks when there are so many great PGs to chose from. All i know is that individual PGs alone do not win championships. I'll take Rondo on a team with other scoring options all day.

thekmp211
05-14-2012, 11:17 AM
bagwell as a someone with playing and coaching experience, do you really think he has become a worse technical shooter? i just think his inconsistencies mean there's a wide range to his poor shooting. this season he also went for games at a time where his scoring was an afterthought (i am referencing games during the run of strong play when rondo had the streak of assists) and we all know certain guys care about that stuff and certain don't.

i think rondo, at times, has better form on his jumper. but the fact that he still doesn't even have a consistent form speaks to a big part of why he sucks at it in the first place. and that's on him. but i don't think his shooting skills have regressed like say allen this year, who's numbers have suffered in part because he's been hurt.

and the other aspects of his game have surely improved. even his maturity.

KingPosey
05-14-2012, 11:36 AM
you know who really has been playing huge, is KG. I wondered if he could still play like this if he needed to. He should have taken over and been the man 3 months ago.

hugepatsfan
05-14-2012, 11:52 AM
Rondo to me is definately one of those guys who the advanced stats don't treat as well as I consitantly see. I know the eye test is unreliable, but I watch a good amount of Celtics games and I truly do believe he's better than his advanced stats say (and there are BOS players that I think are worse, so I'm not just being biased - it's my honest opinion).

I'll be really interested to see how his career progresses as the pieces around him change. People worry about his assist totals, but I don't. He piles up assists not just to the Big 3 (who aren't even that good anymore - Rondo no longer has a stacked offensive lineup to play with).

I think he's shown me enough in this recent stretch that I feel pretty confident he can be a top 5 PG next year. I don't see him ever being able to get any higher than that though unless he magically learns skills that he hasn't been able to by now (unlikely).

thekmp211
05-14-2012, 12:15 PM
^^ truth. will be hard to settle the debate until after the old guys retire.

KG has been great, and there's no doubt that his re-emergence has been perhaps the final piece to this celtics puzzle. but rondo pierce, and to a lesser extent avery bradley are just as integral to this team having a chance at the finals. with bosh out...it's like the seas are being parted for boston. just stay healthy.

bagwell368
05-14-2012, 12:56 PM
bagwell as a someone with playing and coaching experience, do you really think he has become a worse technical shooter?

His hands are so long. I think the ball is too small for him to shoot with consistency. I also think that he's easily frustrated, so at times he just says "frick it". I think he can get better. The obvious solution is also something he may not want any part of - underhand. Rick Barry is one of the couple of best FT shooters of all time. Failing that, he's got to line up the ball and work on getting a consistent back spin. He's got to go with the "dead fish" hand/wrist motion and not that hard snap thing he does at times.


i just think his inconsistencies mean there's a wide range to his poor shooting. this season he also went for games at a time where his scoring was an afterthought (i am referencing games during the run of strong play when rondo had the streak of assists) and we all know certain guys care about that stuff and certain don't.

Shooting and scoring is not the same. Rondo has a well coached team to work with (Doc's best job as a Celt Coach IMO) with lots of scoring options - so he's not called on much, but he is sometimes. The best we can say about Rondo is that he's inefficient in terms of shooting. 5 FG's and 4 FT's a game that won't likely kill you. So far he has 97 FGA in 6 playoff games. That's 16.2 shots a game :speechless: .727, .556, .500 on the good side. .400 on the meh side, and .318, .353 on the OMG side of the fence. 6 for 11 on FT's - the percentage (.545) isn't as damaging as the lack of trips to the line. He clearly avoids getting fouled in the 4th quarter. Leaving behind his driving to the basket game is a development the last year or two that is turning him into more of a single skill offensive player - what will happen when the HOF'ers retire? Rondo taking 26 shots a game?


i think rondo, at times, has better form on his jumper. but the fact that he still doesn't even have a consistent form speaks to a big part of why he sucks at it in the first place.

I agree on the form. His form seems better then 4 years ago, but the results are worse.


but i don't think his shooting skills have regressed like say allen this year, who's numbers have suffered in part because he's been hurt.

Allen had one of the best SG years ever for a player at his age last year. He's also one of the oldest great SG ever (last year again). His feet and ankles have caught up with him - so he has an excuse. Rondo is 26 years old seemingly at his physical peak. Tough to compare apples and oranges.


and the other aspects of his game have surely improved. even his maturity.

In the past 14 months IMO Rondo has some of his worst lack of maturity issues in his career. I've listed them a bunch of times. Can't agree.

bagwell368
05-14-2012, 12:57 PM
^^ truth. will be hard to settle the debate until after the old guys retire.

KG has been great, and there's no doubt that his re-emergence has been perhaps the final piece to this celtics puzzle. but rondo pierce, and to a lesser extent avery bradley are just as integral to this team having a chance at the finals. with bosh out...it's like the seas are being parted for boston. just stay healthy.

Yeah, stay healthy...

Stinkyoutsider
05-14-2012, 01:31 PM
The thing about Rondo that's so good is that defenders lay off of him and want him to take jumpshots, but they leave him so much room that he finds open cutters.

Sometimes, Rondo reminds me a little of a Jason Kidd type player. A player who runs the team, crashes the boards, gets others involved, and has an underrated offensive game.

With all that, I still don't like his attitude too much. If he would make himself more coachable and not so stubborn, he would be even better. We would be talking Chris Paul vs. Rondo for the best point guard in the leauge. I still haven't forgotten how he did the US national team? Who wouldn't want to cooperate with the coaching staff (Coach K) and win for your country?

bagwell368
05-14-2012, 01:44 PM
The thing about Rondo that's so good is that defenders lay off of him and want him to take jumpshots, but they leave him so much room that he finds open cutters.

?? They lay off him so he'll take jumpers - correct, and they watch his passing lanes, or double or help. But he doesn't penetrate much anymore since nobody respects his FT shooting. Not sure "so good" is the right description for that.


Sometimes, Rondo reminds me a little of a Jason Kidd type player. A player who runs the team, crashes the boards, gets others involved, and has an underrated offensive game.

Others have said this, but Kidd started to shoot well in his 5th year, and Rondo is towards the end of this 6th and we're still waiting....


With all that, I still don't like his attitude too much. If he would make himself more coachable and not so stubborn, he would be even better. We would be talking Chris Paul vs. Rondo for the best point guard in the leauge. I still haven't forgotten how he did the US national team? Who wouldn't want to cooperate with the coaching staff (Coach K) and win for your country?

I like when Rondo is great, and I'm naturally selfish, so I want him to be more great more often. It's frustrating when he isn't and it's more frustrating since he's his own worst enemy.

Lim
05-14-2012, 03:09 PM
isn't this guy on pace to break magics playoff triple double record?

bagwell368
05-14-2012, 03:22 PM
isn't this guy on pace to break magics playoff triple double record?

I know in the 60's they were a lot stingier handing out assists then now. I believe the same is true of Magic's era.

Magic is one of the 5 greatest players ever, and Rondo doesn't even rank in the top 6 PG's this year IMO - and it's a weak year for PG's IMO. Do you know what's coming next?

Comparing Magic to Rondo is beyond ridiculous.

Celtic5
05-14-2012, 03:37 PM
Why are you all stuck on stats!?!

Kevin Love had one of the most dominating seasons Stat-wise. Where did that get the Wolves?!?!

I'd rather have Wins than stats. This ain't fantasy basketball. Rondo fills up the stat sheet, but more importantly he's one of the best in the NBA at putting his teammates in a position to succeed. Perfect PG for a championship team.

I know some of you want him to score more but how many teams won championships with their point guard as their main scorer?

JayW_1023
05-14-2012, 04:01 PM
Why are you all stuck on stats!?!

Kevin Love had one of the most dominating seasons Stat-wise. Where did that get the Wolves?!?!

I'd rather have Wins than stats. This ain't fantasy basketball. Rondo fills up the stat sheet, but more importantly he's one of the best in the NBA at putting his teammates in a position to succeed. Perfect PG for a championship team.

I know some of you want him to score more but how many teams won championships with their point guard as their main scorer?

What this guy said. People are too preoccupied with stats, despite that fact that the game has so many more factors which are unquantifiable.

Rondo's impact is evident when you WATCH the game instead of teetering with numbers.

Corey
05-14-2012, 04:03 PM
Why are you all stuck on stats!?!

Kevin Love had one of the most dominating seasons Stat-wise. Where did that get the Wolves?!?!

I'd rather have Wins than stats. This ain't fantasy basketball. Rondo fills up the stat sheet, but more importantly he's one of the best in the NBA at putting his teammates in a position to succeed. Perfect PG for a championship team.

I know some of you want him to score more but how many teams won championships with their point guard as their main scorer?

Supporting cast.

Lil Rhody
05-14-2012, 05:15 PM
Yeah he shot 3-10 but a few of those where shot clock beaters cant blame him for that some of those had tough D

thekmp211
05-14-2012, 05:22 PM
saw this today, jackie mac sums it up really nicely here.

http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/7924339/2012-nba-playoffs-boston-celtics-walk-wild-side-win-game-1-vs-philadelphia-76ers

Sportfan
05-14-2012, 06:03 PM
That's why I said "something like". How about you report back on the average FG% of the other players combined that did it vs. Rondo? That would be interesting. Then the FT% as well.

free throws. putting up 10+ points, rebounds, assists is meh whatvever, but if you're 1-1 from the FT% DAMN! thats something special


actually looked at the first january triple doubles, kyle lowry had one on 30% FG shooting, and Kemba/Iggy each had 1 on 50% FT so I mean...

Bos_Sports4Life
05-14-2012, 06:40 PM
2. I'm a Celts fan, and I am looking ahead to his nice 3 HOF'er team retiring/leaving and shortly.


This is absurd..

For one none of them are really close to peak level. For Two? He seems to put up big #'s when 1 of the big 3 is out. He nearly averaged a triple double in the playoffs without kg.

Rondo's core set of teammates is at an age where a team has NEVER won it (Pretty sure this team is older than the '98 bulls). Yet, you make it sound like they are playing at some HOF level.

Chronz
05-14-2012, 07:04 PM
Practically all of Rondo's 20 triples doubles, he was +30 efficiency, some +40, none below +20...

19-20 of Rondo's triple doubles resulted in a win.

The only lost game was that epic 2OT game 4 in the first round of the 08-09 playoffs against the Bulls, they only lost by 3 and Rondo still won the match up against Rose.

What exactly is your best argument that you feel most confident against Rondo?

Can you explain what you mean by 30+ efficiency?

Chronz
05-14-2012, 07:08 PM
What this guy said. People are too preoccupied with stats, despite that fact that the game has so many more factors which are unquantifiable.

Rondo's impact is evident when you WATCH the game instead of teetering with numbers.

The problem is theres a reason analyst call things that dont show up on the stat sheet the "LITTLE THINGS" that help win games.

You really need to stop this senseless vendetta against stats, people who watch the game see the stats happening in real time. Its not as if you take one or the other, when you COMBINE both, thats when you get the clearest portrait of a players impact and sadly, when I WATCH Rondo I see a flawed player when compared to CP3.

You can say hes very entertaining and unique, unlike anyone in the NBA, but you have also forfeited the fact that being the best is overrated. Well if you dont care about being the best, thats what it would take to enjoy watching Rondo over clearly superior players.

To each his own, but dont tell people to get over the numbers when its the numbers that separate them. Those same intangibles you speak of shine brighter for the best PG's, their statistical superiority isnt a negative.

Chronz
05-14-2012, 07:14 PM
Why are you all stuck on stats!?!

Kevin Love had one of the most dominating seasons Stat-wise. Where did that get the Wolves?!?!
It got the Twolves in better position than they wouldve been if Love hadnt been putting up monster stats, whats your point? When you have to fault a single player for the ultimate fate of his team, thats when you have nothing relevant to say.


I'd rather have Wins than stats.
Id rather have wins+stats. And if you would rather have Wins over stats then that means you would rather have D-Fish over Rondo. Congrats, your logic has left you in a class all your own.


This ain't fantasy basketball. Rondo fills up the stat sheet, but more importantly he's one of the best in the NBA at putting his teammates in a position to succeed. Perfect PG for a championship team.
Disagree, Rondo fills up less important areas of the stat sheet and has to have a perfect cast around him to maximize his effectiveness.


I know some of you want him to score more but how many teams won championships with their point guard as their main scorer?

Who says we want him to score more? I would settle for efficient scoring ala Isiah Thomas.

Chronz
05-14-2012, 07:15 PM
This is absurd..

For one none of them are really close to peak level. For Two? He seems to put up big #'s when 1 of the big 3 is out. He nearly averaged a triple double in the playoffs without kg.

Rondo's core set of teammates is at an age where a team has NEVER won it (Pretty sure this team is older than the '98 bulls). Yet, you make it sound like they are playing at some HOF level.

I agree, Rondo wouldnt be drastically different with or without that cast, the problem is, even with a great cast around him, hes not even in consideration for TOP PG. Hence him quitting in an open selection process of Olympic basketball, and his lack of accolades from the coaches.

Longhornfan1234
05-14-2012, 07:15 PM
Rondo surpassed CP3 as the best PG in the NBA.

justinnum1
05-14-2012, 07:17 PM
Rondo surpassed CP3 as the best PG in the NBA.

You repeat this all the time and your still wrong.

Longhornfan1234
05-14-2012, 07:19 PM
You repeat this all the time and your still wrong.

I always prove yall wrong...it's embarrassing.

Chronz
05-14-2012, 07:23 PM
Rondo surpassed CP3 as the best PG in the NBA.

Let me know when coaches, media members at large, stats, all agree.

Until then, no, there is a reason the Celtics were trying to trade for CP3 at the start of the year. Its the same reason CP3 was practically assured to make the olympic team whereas Rondo had to quit to save face. Same reason coaches keep selecting him ALL-NBA over Rondo. Same reason the stats are HEAVILY in CP3's favor. Same reason CP3 has FAR superior impact in terms of team influence (per +/- data).

Dont say **** just to be controversial, it only discredits your opinion on future claims.

Corey
05-14-2012, 07:31 PM
I love how Bags and Chronz use legitimate reasonings backed by evidence and statistics, and no one counters with anything besides opinions.

Hustlenomics
05-14-2012, 07:40 PM
Let me know when coaches, media members at large, stats, all agree.

Until then, no, there is a reason the Celtics were trying to trade for CP3 at the start of the year. Its the same reason CP3 was practically assured to make the olympic team whereas Rondo had to quit to save face. Same reason coaches keep selecting him ALL-NBA over Rondo. Same reason the stats are HEAVILY in CP3's favor. Same reason CP3 has FAR superior impact in terms of team influence (per +/- data).

Dont say **** just to be controversial, it only discredits your opinion on future claims.

Is Rajon Rondo the best point guard in the NBA? Michael Wilbon, Jon Barry, Chris Broussard and Magic Johnson discuss, and their opinions may surprise you.

"With all due respect to Chris Paul, Russell Westbrook, Darren Williams, Steve Nash, the whole list, Rondo is the best point guard in the NBA this season," says Barry.

"He has played the best, there's no question about it," he says.

Magic Johnson agrees, even comparing Rondo to himself during his glory days.

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4692507/video-how-good-is-rondo

everyone except Chris Broussard said Rondo has been playing like the best point guard this season

avrpatsfan
05-14-2012, 07:45 PM
Well, they're wrong. CP3 has been the best PG in the NBA for a while now, and nobody is close to him right now. Rondo is a better passer, and Rose is a better scorer, but no PG in the NBA has the combination of skills that CP3 has.

CP3 is a perfect combo of scoring, passing, rebounding, defense, and leadership you want in a PG. Anybody who thinks he isn't the best PG in the NBA is fooling themselves.

avrpatsfan
05-14-2012, 07:46 PM
Can you explain what you mean by 30+ efficiency?
Probably PER.

thekmp211
05-14-2012, 07:56 PM
I love how Bags and Chronz use legitimate reasonings backed by evidence and statistics, and no one counters with anything besides opinions.

there are lies, damn lies and statistics. interpreting statistical data is not the same as a fact. we have some pretty solid evidence about what stats, and advanced stats tell us about the game but they are not the be all end all. it's something that the advanced stat community needs to admit actively. everyone says they agree, but in this debate amongst others the crutch of statistical evidence is paraded around as an absolute.

hollinger said denver would be the two seed based off of his projections before the season started. what happened? he was definitely in the minority that predicted that team being legit. but they were a 6 seed, and got knocked out by a "statistically inferior" lakers roster. kobe is no statistical whiz but you can't argue the resume.

can we at least acknowledge this? please? the only stat that is a be all end all is a win.

Chronz
05-14-2012, 08:07 PM
Is Rajon Rondo the best point guard in the NBA? Michael Wilbon, Jon Barry, Chris Broussard and Magic Johnson discuss, and their opinions may surprise you.

"With all due respect to Chris Paul, Russell Westbrook, Darren Williams, Steve Nash, the whole list, Rondo is the best point guard in the NBA this season," says Barry.

"He has played the best, there's no question about it," he says.

Magic Johnson agrees, even comparing Rondo to himself during his glory days.

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4692507/video-how-good-is-rondo

everyone except Chris Broussard said Rondo has been playing like the best point guard this season
Everyone except Chris Brousard? Umm dont you know that the media members vote for MVP?

Explain how CP3 ranked in 3rd if everyone save for him voted for Rondo?

LOL READING COMPREHENSION.

Chronz
05-14-2012, 08:07 PM
Probably PER.

Doubtful , very doubtful

Chronz
05-14-2012, 08:11 PM
there are lies, damn lies and statistics.
There are truths, stats, and cliches. Thats my counter.


interpreting statistical data is not the same as a fact. we have some pretty solid evidence about what stats, and advanced stats tell us about the game but they are not the be all end all. it's something that the advanced stat community needs to admit actively.
They do, the problem with hiding behind the whole stats dont tell the whole story is that CP3 doesnt just have superior stats in his favor. He has coaches, olympic committee members, media members ON TOP OF STATS. Hell he also has the Boston GM vying for his services. What more damning evidence do you need?


everyone says they agree, but in this debate amongst others the crutch of statistical evidence is paraded around as an absolute.

False, its one of the many, MANY, factors that Rondo does not have in his favor.


hollinger said denver would be the two seed based off of his projections before the season started. what happened? he was definitely in the minority that predicted that team being legit.
You chose the one analyst who actually has a history of beating out all the others with his projections. So basically your compaint is that he cant predict injuries and foretell the future with 100% accuracy? LMFAO


but they were a 6 seed, and got knocked out by a "statistically inferior" lakers roster. kobe is no statistical whiz but you can't argue the resume.

Sadly Rondo is not Kobe.


can we at least acknowledge this? please? the only stat that is a be all end all is a win.

Agreed, hence D-Fish owning Rondo.

Hustlenomics
05-14-2012, 08:13 PM
Everyone except Chris Brousard? Umm dont you know that the media members vote for MVP?

Explain how CP3 ranked in 3rd if everyone save for him voted for Rondo?

LOL READING COMPREHENSION.

chris paul helped bring the clippers to the playoffs and played good basketball that's why he was ranked 3rd. and rondo was ranked 5th until his back injury the last week of the season

LGhost
05-14-2012, 08:14 PM
Can you explain what you mean by 30+ efficiency?

Efficiency:

How do many NBA coaches quickly evaluate a player's game performance? They check his efficiency.
NBA.com evaluates all players based on the efficiency formula: ((Points + Rebounds + Assists + Steals + Blocks) - ((Field Goals Att. - Field Goals Made) + (Free Throws Att. - Free Throws Made) + Turnovers)).

For example, compare the following stat lines:

------- MIN FGM-A FTM-A REB AST STL BS TO PTS
Player A 43 5-22 7-9 8 6 3 0 4 17
Player B 29 5-8 3-4 4 7 0 0 2 15
Player A had a better game, right? Not exactly. Player B, who shot 5-8 from the field and committed two turnovers, registered a +20 efficiency total while Player A, who shot 5-22 from the field and committed four turnovers, posted a +11.

Chronz
05-14-2012, 08:17 PM
I always prove yall wrong...it's embarrassing.

Can you prove me, the coaches (who continuously choose CP3), the media members at large (Who just voted CP3 as the third most valuable player), the Celtics GM (who has tried to acquire CP3) and the stats wrong?

Chronz
05-14-2012, 08:17 PM
Efficiency:

How do many NBA coaches quickly evaluate a player's game performance? They check his efficiency.
NBA.com evaluates all players based on the efficiency formula: ((Points + Rebounds + Assists + Steals + Blocks) - ((Field Goals Att. - Field Goals Made) + (Free Throws Att. - Free Throws Made) + Turnovers)).

For example, compare the following stat lines:

------- MIN FGM-A FTM-A REB AST STL BS TO PTS
Player A 43 5-22 7-9 8 6 3 0 4 17
Player B 29 5-8 3-4 4 7 0 0 2 15
Player A had a better game, right? Not exactly. Player B, who shot 5-8 from the field and committed two turnovers, registered a +20 efficiency total while Player A, who shot 5-22 from the field and committed four turnovers, posted a +11.

Thats pretty sad bro

Chronz
05-14-2012, 08:18 PM
chris paul helped bring the clippers to the playoffs and played good basketball that's why he was ranked 3rd. and rondo was ranked 5th until his back injury the last week of the season

Exactly my point

avrpatsfan
05-14-2012, 08:20 PM
Thats pretty sad bro
How is that sad?

thekmp211
05-14-2012, 08:21 PM
There are truths, stats, and cliches. Thats my counter.


They do, the problem with hiding behind the whole stats dont tell the whole story is that CP3 doesnt just have superior stats in his favor. He has coaches, olympic committee members, media members ON TOP OF STATS. Hell he also has the Boston GM vying for his services. What more damning evidence do you need?


False, its one of the many, MANY, factors that Rondo does not have in his favor.


You chose the one analyst who actually has a history of beating out all the others with his projections. So basically your compaint is that he cant predict injuries and foretell the future with 100% accuracy? LMFAO


Sadly Rondo is not Kobe.


Agreed, hence D-Fish owning Rondo.


don't lump me in with other people. i never, ever argued that rondo was better than paul.

listen man, you are among the people whose opinions i turn to first on this site and you've certainly influenced my opinions on stats. but that first sentence is an intellectual cop out. if you've taken courses on statistics, the first thing ANYONE tells you is that they are not all encompassing. it's rule #1.

politicians use stats, raw numbers, voting results, percentage poll results to form opinion. does the fact that they are using real, raw evidence make the skewing of the statistics any less complete?

again. stats are a means to an end in everything including sports. identifying a quality, winning brand of basketball. they have helped to debunk a lot of conventions about the game. but they. are. not. universal.

it's hard to take any argument against rondo seriously when you can't even admit that to any degree.

my point regarding hollinger is yes, he's always out in front, but he was and is often wrong with his ultimate conclusions because he always goes with the numbers and the numbers aren't ALWAYS right. yes, a one size fits all approach to evaluating anything is naive.

Hustlenomics
05-14-2012, 08:22 PM
Exactly my point

yea everyone knows chris paul is great but he isn't even the topic of this thread

LGhost
05-14-2012, 08:25 PM
Oh? He won the games by himself? Neat trick.

Cute...



Just about all of them:

1. FG% outside the paint - very poor
2. 3 PT% - very poor
3. FT% - hideous for a starting guard (and GETTING WORSE)
4. Doesn't get up for every game'
5. Pouted away for a 16 game period after the Perk deal (and admitted after he let it get to him)
6. Stubborn (his college coach, Doc, Ainge) have all said so - this includes not practicing as asked
7. Too easily gives in to emotion (bumping ref, throwing ball at ref, throwing bottle at screen in film room (all this within the last year). Now the minor, but telling cameraman issue the other day.
8. In the future, he's going to have to lead the Celts or be the #2 perhaps. He doesn't have the offense to step up his scoring (efficiently), he lacks the emotional stability so far (not good in his sixth year) to be a leader either. His frequent moods and games off are a horrible example to young players and will over time build resentment and lack of respect for him as a player in the organization.


1. Scoring isn't the only factor in basketball
2. Scoring isn't the only factor in basketball
3. Scoring isn't the only factor in basketball
4. Has nothing to do with his skill
5. Has nothing to do with his skill
6. Has nothing to do with his skill
7. Has nothing to do with his skill
8. Has nothing to do with his skill

3 arguments about his scoring and 5 about his personality... It seems to me you just don't like him personally...

Point guards don't need to score, they need to control the offense, scoring is only a plus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_guard

LGhost
05-14-2012, 08:28 PM
Thats pretty sad bro

What's wrong with it? It doesn't go deep enough for you? Go ahead and try me with one of your advanced stats

bagwell368
05-14-2012, 08:30 PM
This is absurd..

For one none of them are really close to peak level. For Two? He seems to put up big #'s when 1 of the big 3 is out. He nearly averaged a triple double in the playoffs without kg.

Rondo's core set of teammates is at an age where a team has NEVER won it (Pretty sure this team is older than the '98 bulls). Yet, you make it sound like they are playing at some HOF level.

You well know that I've mentioned the decline of the Celts often. The fact is that he has a number of capable targets with experience to make up for at least some of what they are losing.

If you think that when KG and PP are gone the guys we get will get the same whistles, know what works in the league as well? Yeah OK.

bagwell368
05-14-2012, 08:32 PM
Rondo's impact is evident when you WATCH the game instead of teetering with numbers.

Rondo's play is clear from watching it, and your assessments are incredibly subjective and fan-boy oriented. Sorry.

bagwell368
05-14-2012, 08:35 PM
I know some of you want him to score more but how many teams won championships with their point guard as their main scorer?

Nobody I know is asking that. I am asking for more efficient shooting when he shoots. Is that asking for too much?

Chronz
05-14-2012, 08:37 PM
yea everyone knows chris paul is great but he isn't even the topic of this thread
Then ignore my posts


What's wrong with it?
Its ridiculed by every statistician for being a crude wannabe of GameScore which itself is a poor mans version of PER. The chocobar stat isnt credible because its weighted measures arent based on any sort of statistical research/logic.


It doesn't go deep enough for you? Go ahead and try me with one of your advanced stats
No thanks, I was just wondering.


don't lump me in with other people. i never, ever argued that rondo was better than paul.
So then who are you comparing to Rondo that the stats would underscore?

bagwell368
05-14-2012, 08:37 PM
Yeah he shot 3-10 but a few of those where shot clock beaters cant blame him for that some of those had tough D

That stuff all evens out over time. This isn't a big factor in Rondo's morbidly bad shooting.

VCaintdead17
05-14-2012, 08:39 PM
Practically all of Rondo's 20 triples doubles, he was +30 efficiency, some +40, none below +20...

19-20 of Rondo's triple doubles resulted in a win.

The only lost game was that epic 2OT game 4 in the first round of the 08-09 playoffs against the Bulls, they only lost by 3 and Rondo still won the match up against Rose.

What exactly is your best argument that you feel most confident against Rondo?

lolwut?

LGhost
05-14-2012, 08:41 PM
Nobody I know is asking that. I am asking for more efficient shooting when he shoots. Is that asking for too much?

Ask for it all you want but that doesn't mean he isn't an exceptional player at his position and one of the best this year.

bagwell368
05-14-2012, 08:41 PM
Rondo surpassed CP3 as the best PG in the NBA.

Rondo doesn't even crack the top 6. Please....

LGhost
05-14-2012, 08:43 PM
Rondo doesn't even crack the top 6.

And how do you know this?

Chronz
05-14-2012, 08:45 PM
And how do you know this?

honest Q, does Rondo make an All-NBA team this year?

bcc
05-14-2012, 08:49 PM
I gotta laugh at knocking the substance and quality of Rondo's triple-doubles. Apparently these things are easier to achieve than I thought.
You make worthwhile points Bagwell but I think sometimes we're missing the forest for the trees. We get that he's not a good shooter; it's well-established and it might not ever change. Yet he dominates. Even if its in five minute increments, its often enough to decide the outcome. Every opposing coach insists Rondo's the primary problem when facing the Celtics. That probably matters as well.
And shooting aside, you could make a case he's Top 3 in every other facet by which we measure a PG.

bagwell368
05-14-2012, 08:49 PM
How is that sad?

It's been discredited. It's a poor attempt at deriving value from stats, but it's got holes.

thekmp211
05-14-2012, 08:50 PM
Then ignore my posts


Its ridiculed by every statistician for being a crude wannabe of GameScore which itself is a poor mans version of PER. The chocobar stat isnt credible because its weighted measures arent based on any sort of statistical research/logic.


No thanks, I was just wondering.


So then who are you comparing to Rondo that the stats would underscore?


the next tier down. tbh i think there are 4-6 guys who's total output is pretty similar under paul. he just does it all, including his will to win i think he's pound for pound arguably the best player in the league but that's another convo for another day.

having watched almost every game for the second 2/3 of the season, watching rondo and his approach closely, i just can't use his shooting percentages against him as much as some other guys who are score first. a typical poor shooting night for him might include 3 end of quarter heaves. he might have not even started shooting really before the team was up by 20.

again when they fall flat is when the shots aren't dropping on the other end of the pass, and he isn't in rhythm scoring. but the way he's been running the offense, that was rarely the case. and he has proven to be capable of rising to the occasion as a scorer, which is more than can be said about 90% of players in the league. that to me is as much of a difference between a team like boston and philly (for example) as the on court match ups. he is not afraid of the moment, to say the least.

i just wish there was another player that we dissected like this, cause it seems like i don't believe in advanced stats here. quite the contrary.

LGhost
05-14-2012, 08:52 PM
honest Q, does Rondo make an All-NBA team this year?

"The voting is conducted by a panel of sportswriters and broadcasters throughout the United States and Canada."

How the hell am I supposed to know?

Last year there was 3 point guards who made all-nba...

The guy said Rondo doesn't crack top 6 so ALL-NBA doesn't matter...

Green_Monster
05-14-2012, 08:54 PM
honest Q, does Rondo make an All-NBA team this year?

:shrug: He came in 8th for MVP voting, 3rd PG on the list.

LGhost
05-14-2012, 08:57 PM
How do we go from facts & advanced stats to using others opinions\voting???

Chronz
05-14-2012, 08:57 PM
"The voting is conducted by a panel of sportswriters and broadcasters throughout the United States and Canada."

How the hell am I supposed to know?

Last year there was 3 point guards who made all-nba...

The guy said Rondo doesn't crack top 6 so ALL-NBA doesn't matter...

I see.

LGhost
05-14-2012, 09:01 PM
I see.

okay so what point were you trying to prove using ALL-NBA voting?

Chronz
05-14-2012, 09:02 PM
How do we go from facts & advanced stats to using others opinions\voting???

Because people want more than just objective if flawed evidence.

Chronz
05-14-2012, 09:03 PM
okay so what point were you trying to prove using ALL-NBA voting?
No point, hence the honest Q part.

bagwell368
05-14-2012, 09:06 PM
I gotta laugh at knocking the substance and quality of Rondo's triple-doubles. Apparently these things are easier to achieve than I thought.
You make worthwhile points Bagwell but I think sometimes we're missing the forest for the trees. We get that he's not a good shooter; it's well-established and it might not ever change. Yet he dominates. Even if its in five minute increments, its often enough to decide the outcome. And every other opposing coach insists Rondo's the primary problem when facing the Celtics. That probably matters as wel.
And shooting aside, you could make a case he's Top 3 in every other facet by which we measure a PG.

But each measurable isn't equal to all the others.

Rondo isn't top 3 in TOV's, STL's, BLK's. Toss in the shooting, and he's 68th this year in PER, and lower in WS and WS/48.

Toss in the fact he missed 20% of his games in a short season then the concept that he's some MVP or top 3 PG is simply wishful thinking.

KG and PP were clearly better this year on the Celts. It's not even arguable. Any appearance of Rondo for MVP is all about the writers following trends.. and disregarding reality.

roshan3ai
05-14-2012, 09:09 PM
Rondo's not top 6.

Chris Paul
Derrick Rose
Deron Williams
Russell Westbrook
Steve Nash
Tony Parker

I wouldn't hesitate to take those guys over him :shrug:

Chronz
05-14-2012, 09:09 PM
Thats my main complaint against Rondo, his pretty all-around stats detract from the fact that KG and Pierce are better/more productive players. Not more durable exactly, but more impactful players when healthy.

roshan3ai
05-14-2012, 09:12 PM
Cute...



1. Scoring isn't the only factor in basketball
2. Scoring isn't the only factor in basketball
3. Scoring isn't the only factor in basketball
4. Has nothing to do with his skill
5. Has nothing to do with his skill
6. Has nothing to do with his skill
7. Has nothing to do with his skill
8. Has nothing to do with his skill

3 arguments about his scoring and 5 about his personality... It seems to me you just don't like him personally...

Point guards don't need to score, they need to control the offense, scoring is only a plus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_guard
This is such a bad post. Scoring isn't the only factor in basketball. Yes, that's correct. But that doesn't mean it's not a deficiency. With this logic, Amar'e is an amazing player. He's not good at defense? Well, it's not the only factor in basketball. You can't just ignore that.

Rondo being a piss poor shooter from mid-long range allows the opposing PG to back off him and play some help defense. He's not a top 6 point guard with how inefficient he is. He has the perfect cast.

If you took Rose, Westbrook, CP, DWill, Nash or TP and switched them with Rondo, the Celtics would get better and the team Rondo goes to would get worse. Easily. He is so overrated it's unreal.

bagwell368
05-14-2012, 09:13 PM
Thats my main complaint against Rondo, his pretty all-around stats detract from the fact that KG and Pierce are better/more productive players. Not more durable exactly, but more impactful players when healthy.

And this year, Rondo's propensity to get injured and throw balls at refs...

RR: 53/66 games
KG: 60/66 games
PP: 61/66 games

LGhost
05-14-2012, 09:20 PM
This is such a bad post. Scoring isn't the only factor in basketball. Yes, that's correct. But that doesn't mean it's not a deficiency. With this logic, Amar'e is an amazing player. He's not good at defense? Well, it's not the only factor in basketball. You can't just ignore that.


Are you telling me or the guy I quoted?




If you took Rose, Westbrook, CP, DWill, Nash or TP and switched them with Rondo, the Celtics would get better and the team Rondo goes to would get worse. Easily. He is so overrated it's unreal.

That can be voted on but it can't be proved

Green_Monster
05-14-2012, 09:31 PM
This is such a bad post. Scoring isn't the only factor in basketball. Yes, that's correct. But that doesn't mean it's not a deficiency. With this logic, Amar'e is an amazing player. He's not good at defense? Well, it's not the only factor in basketball. You can't just ignore that.

Rondo being a piss poor shooter from mid-long range allows the opposing PG to back off him and play some help defense. He's not a top 6 point guard with how inefficient he is. He has the perfect cast.

If you took Rose, Westbrook, CP, DWill, Nash or TP and switched them with Rondo, the Celtics would get better and the team Rondo goes to would get worse. Easily. He is so overrated it's unreal.

Paul is the only one that could help the Celtics be a better team. Pierce and KG need the ball, if you put any other PG on the Celtics, they wouldn't mesh well.

Corey
05-14-2012, 09:37 PM
Rondo 1-5 shooting outside of five feet tonight.

Brings him to a grand total of 4-15 outside of five feet so far this series.

bagwell368
05-14-2012, 09:41 PM
Paul is the only one that could help the Celtics be a better team. Pierce and KG need the ball, if you put anyother PG on the Celtics, they wouldn't mesh well.

That's not how it works. A more capable shooting PG would draw more defensive attention, freeing other players more rather then less. KG is a fine passer for a big, PP got some big assists games while Rondo was out this year, RA is a fine passer as well.

I personally don't like the QB PG - for instance what do you do when your PG goes down with injury? I like the Celts in the 60's and 80's and Lakers of the 80's as models of passing and ball movement that includes everyone.

You know what the triple threat is? That's when you are holding or dribbling the ball and can shoot, drive, or pass and since hopefully you can do all of them equally well the D has to play vanilla. When Rondo holds the ball, the D dares him to shoot - so he's only a double threat.

Never turn away a more talented player that knows how to share the rock.

Hustlenomics
05-14-2012, 09:42 PM
Rondo 1-5 shooting outside of five feet tonight.

Brings him to a grand total of 4-15 outside of five feet so far this series.

2 that were thrown up at the end of the shot clock and don't forget his 13 assists and 7 rebounds

Green_Monster
05-14-2012, 09:45 PM
That's not how it works. A more capable shooting PG would draw more defensive attention, freeing other players more rather then less. KG is a fine passer for a big, PP got some big assists games while Rondo was out this year, RA is a fine passer as well.

I personally don't like the QB PG - for instance what do you do when your PG goes down with injury? I like the Celts in the 60's and 80's and Lakers of the 80's as models of passing and ball movement that includes everyone.

You know what the triple threat is? That's when you are holding or dribbling the ball and can shoot, drive, or pass and since hopefully you can do all of them equally well the D has to play vanilla. When Rondo holds the ball, the D dares him to shoot - so he's only a double threat.

Never turn away a more talented player that knows how to share the rock.

Westbrook: He's a chucker.
Rose: Needs ball to dominate.
Williams: Needs ball to dominate.
Nash: Another 38 year old?
Parker: Actually, he could work.
Paul: He would fit perfectly.

LGhost
05-14-2012, 09:47 PM
2 that were thrown up at the end of the shot clock and don't forget his 13 assists and 7 rebounds

those two things don't make a good player though

roshan3ai
05-14-2012, 09:49 PM
Are you telling me or the guy I quoted?



That can be voted on but it can't be proved

Okay. Toney Douglas>Rajon Rondo.

Can't be proved that I'm wrong.

And I was referring to you.

roshan3ai
05-14-2012, 09:50 PM
Paul is the only one that could help the Celtics be a better team. Pierce and KG need the ball, if you put any other PG on the Celtics, they wouldn't mesh well.

KG and Pierce are great at working without the ball as well. Rondo's not a threat to shoot from outside. The guys I mentioned are much better scoring threats for a team that clearly needs scoring. They would all make the Celtics better.

thekmp211
05-14-2012, 09:50 PM
Okay. Toney Douglas>Rajon Rondo.

Can't be proved that I'm wrong.

And I was referring to you.

so again, i pose to you the same question i asked chronz and others.

at what point are you willing to admit the limitations of the statistics you harp on? because they are limited in scope no matter how you feel about it.

avrpatsfan
05-14-2012, 09:54 PM
Rondo's not top 6.

Chris Paul
Derrick Rose
Deron Williams
Russell Westbrook
Steve Nash
Tony Parker

I wouldn't hesitate to take those guys over him :shrug:
Well said. (if age isn't a factor of course)

Right now, I'd go
1. CP3
2. Rose
3. Parker
4. Deron
5. Westbrook
6. Nash
7. Rondo

Do I enjoy having Rondo on the Celtics? Of course. But he's not a top 5 PG.

69centers
05-14-2012, 09:55 PM
Rondo 1-5 shooting outside of five feet tonight.

Brings him to a grand total of 4-15 outside of five feet so far this series.

Stats don't tell the whole story. So, you're going to knock Rondo for the 1st quarter, one handed desperation heave at the last second of the shot clock, when he shouldn't have been passed the ball in the first place?

Many other instances like that in Game 1.

roshan3ai
05-14-2012, 09:55 PM
so again, i pose to you the same question i asked chronz and others.

at what point are you willing to admit the limitations of the statistics you harp on? because they are limited in scope no matter how you feel about it.
Well he was right. It's not like he's only using statistics in his argument. But these are facets of the game. Watching the games is great and all but if you think your opinion is rock solid, then the stats should back you up. And they don't in this case.

avrpatsfan
05-14-2012, 09:55 PM
Westbrook: He's a chucker.
Rose: Needs ball to dominate.
Williams: Needs ball to dominate.
Nash: Another 38 year old?
Parker: Actually, he could work.
Paul: He would fit perfectly.
But Rondo needs the ball to dominate too. The ball is in his hands most of the time on the Celtics.

roshan3ai
05-14-2012, 09:56 PM
Stats don't tell the whole story. So, you're going to knock Rondo for the 1st quarter, one handed desperation heave at the last second of the shot clock, when he shouldn't have been passed the ball in the first place?

Many other instances like that in Game 1.
How many times are people going to say stats don't tell the whole story? You saying that doesn't mean the stats are wrong. They still freaking tell you SOMETHING. Saying stats don't tell the whole story and ignoring them is absolutely moronic.

Green_Monster
05-14-2012, 09:57 PM
those two things don't make a good player though

People think if you can't shoot, your not good. But that's completly false.

Rondo can score, he can't shoot.

10 points from layups > 8 points from jump shots

roshan3ai
05-14-2012, 09:58 PM
Westbrook: He's a chucker.
Rose: Needs ball to dominate.
Williams: Needs ball to dominate.
Nash: Another 38 year old?
Parker: Actually, he could work.
Paul: He would fit perfectly.

Westbrook: More efficient than Rondo in every shooting category and is a legit #1 option. Yeah he definitely wouldn't help a team that's in the bottom of the league in scoring.

Rose: Rondo is pretty useless without the ball as well. Again, Rose would help a team that ranks in the bottom of the league in scoring.

Nash: Who cares how old he is. He's a top distributor that can actually score and does that at an efficient level.

roshan3ai
05-14-2012, 10:00 PM
People think if you can't shoot, your not good. But that's completly false.

Rondo can score, he can't shoot.

10 points from layups > 8 points from jump shots
No **** sherlock. 10>8. You're a math guru.

But Rondo still can't score efficiently. He's an absolutely horrendous FT shooter, and has a horrible mid-range and long range game. Nobody said Rondo isn't good. He's good. Not a top 6 PG though.

thekmp211
05-14-2012, 10:02 PM
Well he was right. It's not like he's only using statistics in his argument. But these are facets of the game. Watching the games is great and all but if you think your opinion is rock solid, then the stats should back you up. And they don't in this case.

huh? how so? there is no 100% correlation between some set of efficiency stats and winning, the objective of team sports. causation, perhaps. but not correlation.

i get that, but his TS% is supposed to indicate definitively that he's a bad offensive player, and i'm saying that's not true. it means he's an inconsistent scorer.

the rest, just like my views, are opinion. and what i'm saying is that what TS% means is really an opinion, too. it's all in degrees.. the same people slamming rondo advocates for being blinded by his flair are being blinded by their love for metrics in the same way.

69centers
05-14-2012, 10:02 PM
How many times are people going to say stats don't tell the whole story? You saying that doesn't mean the stats are wrong. They still freaking tell you SOMETHING. Saying stats don't tell the whole story and ignoring them is absolutely moronic.

Who said I ignored them? I was pointing out that the 1 for 5 shouldn't be considered at face value or that percentage, due to last second shot clock heaves. I never said I ignored his other misses.

Hustlenomics
05-14-2012, 10:03 PM
How many times are people going to say stats don't tell the whole story? You saying that doesn't mean the stats are wrong. They still freaking tell you SOMETHING. Saying stats don't tell the whole story and ignoring them is absolutely moronic.

saying stats don't tell the whole story and bringing up instances in the game to back up your point isn't moronic it just proves there's more to the game than just watching the boxscore

bagwell368
05-14-2012, 10:07 PM
Stats don't tell the whole story. So, you're going to knock Rondo for the 1st quarter, one handed desperation heave at the last second of the shot clock, when he shouldn't have been passed the ball in the first place?

Many other instances like that in Game 1.

Many? And other guys that handle the ball a lot don't end up suffering the same issue (if they shoot as poorly as Rondo of course)?

Seems like a reach.

avrpatsfan
05-14-2012, 10:08 PM
No **** sherlock. 10>8. You're a math guru.

But Rondo still can't score efficiently. He's an absolutely horrendous FT shooter, and has a horrible mid-range and long range game. Nobody said Rondo isn't good. He's good. Not a top 6 PG though.
Well said.

unwantedplayer
05-14-2012, 10:08 PM
saying stats don't tell the whole story and bringing up instances in the game to back up your point isn't moronic it just proves there's more to the game than just watching the boxscore

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?t=679643

....?

Hustlenomics
05-14-2012, 10:10 PM
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?t=679643

....?

his best games. what's your point?

roshan3ai
05-14-2012, 10:10 PM
huh? how so? there is no 100% correlation between some set of efficiency stats and winning, the objective of team sports. causation, perhaps. but not correlation.

i get that, but his TS% is supposed to indicate definitively that he's a bad offensive player, and i'm saying that's not true. it means he's an inconsistent scorer.

the rest, just like my views, are opinion. and what i'm saying is that what TS% means is really an opinion, too. it's all in degrees.. the same people slamming rondo advocates for being blinded by his flair are being blinded by their love for metrics in the same way.
TS% is not an opinion.

thekmp211
05-14-2012, 10:13 PM
TS% is not an opinion.

lolol i know. that's not what i said. what it IMPLIES is an opinion. what it means.

roshan3ai
05-14-2012, 10:14 PM
Who said I ignored them? I was pointing out that the 1 for 5 shouldn't be considered at face value or that percentage, due to last second shot clock heaves. I never said I ignored his other misses.


saying stats don't tell the whole story and bringing up instances in the game to back up your point isn't moronic it just proves there's more to the game than just watching the boxscore
How do you explain Rondo shooting 26% from 3-9 feet, 28% from 10-15 feet, 39% from 16-23 feet and 25% from 3 then? Corey's stats just solidified his horrific season stats fro mid-range. He's not making a whole new opinion based on this one game.

roshan3ai
05-14-2012, 10:15 PM
lolol i know. that's not what i said. what it IMPLIES is an opinion. what it means.

It's pretty self-explanatory. Rondo has a horrible TS% even for a PG and this shows that he's an inefficient scorer. Doesn't mean he's a bad offensive player. But he's not an efficient scorer.

Hustlenomics
05-14-2012, 10:18 PM
How do you explain Rondo shooting 26% from 3-9 feet, 28% from 10-15 feet, 39% from 16-23 feet and 25% from 3 then? Corey's stats just solidified his horrific season stats fro mid-range. He's not making a whole new opinion based on this one game.

his floaters from 5 to 15 feet were off this year, most of his threes were chucked up at the end of the clock, same with his shots from 16-23 feet, he was average from those areas not horrific.

roshan3ai
05-14-2012, 10:23 PM
his floaters from 5 to 15 feet were off this year, most of his threes were chucked up at the end of the clock, same with his shots from 16-23 feet, he was average from those areas not horrific.

The only stat that was remotely close to average was his % from 16-23 feet.

But excuses like this can be made for many players. Rondo isn't the only one in the league who has to take shots at the end of the shotclock.

Bos_Sports4Life
05-14-2012, 10:24 PM
You well know that I've mentioned the decline of the Celts often. The fact is that he has a number of capable targets with experience to make up for at least some of what they are losing.

If you think that when KG and PP are gone the guys we get will get the same whistles, know what works in the league as well? Yeah OK.

I'm not saying the big 3 are no longer talented..As they are and still play at a pretty high level..Esp Pierce/KG. However using the he playes with 3 hof'ers as the reason for his success is flawed. They are at an avg age of what? 35? He's also played well in situations where one is out.

I Agree if a team relies on Rondo as a top 3 scoring option the team is in trouble and won't win a ton, but does that in itself mean hes not a very good player? No.

He's a plus rebounder, plus defender, and a plus plus distributer and he's a top 6 PG Imo.

I also don't think him not "showing up" in smaller games is really him being lazy, he's more aggressive/takes it too the hoop ect more in big games/playoff games, it's the only way he can really score. Can a man that size take the punnishment needed to do that on a game to game basis? In my opinion its him simply being smart

69centers
05-14-2012, 10:27 PM
It's pretty self-explanatory. Rondo has a horrible TS% even for a PG and this shows that he's an inefficient scorer. Doesn't mean he's a bad offensive player. But he's not an efficient scorer.

If I cared about TS% my idols would be Cedric Maxwell, James Donaldson, and Brent Barry, who are all in the top 10 all time for TS%. :rock:

Deron Williams = 118th all time
Kobe Bryant = 127th all time
Tim Duncan = 148th all time
Alex English = 162nd all time
KG = 164th all time

What all this equals = It's a :bs: stat.

roshan3ai
05-14-2012, 10:30 PM
If I cared about TS% my idols would be Cedric Maxwell, James Donaldson, and Brent Barry, who are all in the top 10 all time for TS%. :rock:

Deron Williams = 118th all time
Kobe Bryant = 127th all time
Tim Duncan = 148th all time
Alex English = 162nd all time
KG = 164th all time

What all this equals = It's a :bs: stat.
:laugh: TS% is a BS stat? Do you even know what it is? It takes into account account all modes of scoring points.

:laugh: TS% is hardly an advanced stat. It's pretty damn basic.

bagwell368
05-14-2012, 10:34 PM
his floaters from 5 to 15 feet were off this year

That's an excuse. Still counts.


most of his threes were chucked up at the end of the clock, same with his shots from 16-23 feet, he was average from those areas not horrific.

Average for him, or for the league, or for PG's?

bcc
05-14-2012, 10:35 PM
Rondo 1-5 shooting outside of five feet tonight.

Brings him to a grand total of 4-15 outside of five feet so far this series.

He didn't have a good game tonite during what was an embarrassingly bad showing by the team in general. But we get it with the shooting. We get it. That point does not have to be further belabored. Problem is, when Rondo hits three big 4th quarter jumpers like he did in Game 1, he's never really given credit. His critics always look at it as an aberration thus, they don't actually count.

Hustlenomics
05-14-2012, 10:38 PM
The only stat that was remotely close to average was his % from 16-23 feet.

But excuses like this can be made for many players. Rondo isn't the only one in the league who has to take shots at the end of the shotclock.

shooting off balanced shots is not his game. Why only judge him because of his shooting? His passing is very good, his defense is very good, his rebounding is very good, his awareness and IQ is very good. He has 8 triple doubles this year and no player has more than one this season but you guys tend to dismiss all of this and just talk about his shooting when he doesn't even focus on that during the games he sets up his teammates to give them an easier opportunity to score

bagwell368
05-14-2012, 10:44 PM
I Agree if a team relies on Rondo as a top 3 scoring option the team is in trouble and won't win a ton, but does that in itself mean hes not a very good player? No.

Ahhh... therein lies the question. Will Rondo be a very good player if he's on a team that's playing .400 ball? With below average offensive players to work with?


He's a plus rebounder, plus defender, and a plus plus distributer and he's a top 6 PG Imo.

Rebounding is not a key job for a PG. He's in the top 5 for a PG (at rebounding), but the alure of that isn't huge value wise. His D is more important obviously compared to rebounding. His shooting is awful and his on and off court screw ups have to be held against him. He's not in the top 6 IMO. He also missed 20% of his teams games this year, not good.


I also don't think him not "showing up" in smaller games is really him being lazy, he's more aggressive/takes it too the hoop ect more in big games/playoff games, it's the only way he can really score. Can a man that size take the punnishment needed to do that on a game to game basis? In my opinion its him simply being smart

He doesn't take the ball inside much anymore so I'm not sure that argument is usable anymore. Bird used to get pounded, didn't stop him. A great player isn't a highlight film when they leave off the mistakes. It's every game by whatever means possible.

bcc
05-14-2012, 10:48 PM
Way to address the question, roshan.
--- All modes of scoring points? Who cares. Every coach will take a game full of layups or interior jumpshots. Every coach. Every game. The significance of scoring in all modes is lost on me.
--- and calling TS% "pretty damn basic" is absurd. It's a recently manufactured, Sabermetric-level stat whose significance can easily be questioned.
Unless you really believe Bones Barry was that much better than Kobe and Max was that much better than KG.

bagwell368
05-14-2012, 10:48 PM
He didn't have a good game tonite during what was an embarrassingly bad showing by the team in general. But we get it with the shooting. We get it. That point does not have to be further belabored. Problem is, when Rondo hits three big 4th quarter jumpers like he did in Game 1, he's never really given credit. His critics always look at it as an aberration thus, they don't actually count.

Not sure where you get his from. He is what he is. He misses more then most players that start at PG in the league.

I can't just ignore when he screws up, nor when he does great. He's a very complex package. All I want is everyone to see that, and stop claiming he's "great" - he's not.

Corey
05-14-2012, 10:49 PM
roshy babe are you enjoying what I deal with everyday?

bagwell368
05-14-2012, 10:55 PM
shooting off balanced shots is not his game. Why only judge him because of his shooting? His passing is very good, his defense is very good, his rebounding is very good, his awareness and IQ is very good. He has 8 triple doubles this year and no player has more than one this season but you guys tend to dismiss all of this and just talk about his shooting when he doesn't even focus on that during the games he sets up his teammates to give them an easier opportunity to score

Speaking for myself, I bring up what Rondo doesn't do well to bring balance. Several fans will dash to the keyboard to brag on what Rondo did, but then go silent when he's had a bad game or misbehaved in some way. Rondo has warts, he's not perfect and he's not great. He's inconsistent. He has great moments, some great games - and some awful games. He can behave like a git.

Rebounding for a PG isn't as important as turnovers. Turnovers, rebounding, and steals combined are not as important in terms of value as shooting. Shooting is a big deal. It's not something that can just be passed off.

Chronz
05-14-2012, 11:10 PM
If I cared about TS% my idols would be Cedric Maxwell, James Donaldson, and Brent Barry, who are all in the top 10 all time for TS%. :rock:

Deron Williams = 118th all time
Kobe Bryant = 127th all time
Tim Duncan = 148th all time
Alex English = 162nd all time
KG = 164th all time

What all this equals = It's a :bs: stat.

So you dont care about FG% or rebounding or any stat that doesnt have whoever your favorite player is?

Green_Monster
05-15-2012, 06:52 AM
No **** sherlock. 10>8. You're a math guru.

But Rondo still can't score efficiently. He's an absolutely horrendous FT shooter, and has a horrible mid-range and long range game. Nobody said Rondo isn't good. He's good. Not a top 6 PG though.

Is he still scoring 11.9 PPG as a 4th option? Yes.

69centers
05-15-2012, 08:07 AM
So you dont care about FG% or rebounding or any stat that doesnt have whoever your favorite player is?

I enjoy accurate stats that truly show who the best players are at given mesurements. Not stats where all time great players aren't even top 100, and no names rank top 10 all time.

bagwell368
05-15-2012, 08:10 AM
Is he still scoring 11.9 PPG as a 4th option? Yes.

Tell me sage one, what is better?

A player that takes 9 FG's and 3 FT's to average 11.9 PPG

OR

A player that takes 13 FG's and 3 FT's to average 11.9 PPG


You do realize that shooting (except a FT that isn't the last FT due in a turn) is inherently risky because you are more then 50% likely to lose possession on each miss....

If you count those misses and loss of possession as turnovers of possession which is what they are, Rondo's turnover rate per minute on the floor goes up. It's not small potatoes, it's a big deal.

I had a kid on a 14 year old AAU team that was somewhat similar. Great passing, great D, tough, smart, good not great ball handler. Couldn't shoot (although his FT's were better then Rondo). Guess what? He didn't shoot. He picked out the open man (or most open), and went to a spot where his teammates knew he'd be for a pass back, and he'd high tail it down floor to play D on a change of possession. Rondo sometimes goes hunting rebounds when he is supposed to be going down floor. Rondo shoots because of the 24 second shot clock, and his options have been removed by the D on some offensive plays.

bagwell368
05-15-2012, 08:17 AM
I enjoy accurate stats that truly show who the best players are at given mesurements. Not stats where all time great players aren't even top 100, and no names rank top 10 all time.

You need to learn how to read stats.

Some all time greats played well into their decline phase - meaning their percentages dropped. You might want to look at the best 3, 5, 7 years of a players career to get around that issue.

Other players - say Havlicek are volume scorers. He scored a lot his shooting percentages even in his time was meh. He also played great D, and could pass and ball handle a bit. He was also on a lot of great teams. I don't have to look him up to know he's well down the list of eFG% or TS% all time players.

A lot of lay-up/dunk bigs must be high, Ray Allen must be high up too. That's nice. OTOH say two PG's or the same era - say Rondo and Paul - that's then a very apt stat to look at. Oh oh, Rondo gets owned...

If you think a stat that focuses on aspect of the game is flawed - you are wrong. It is your attempt to use that stat to describe an entire player that is wrong. There are at least a dozen stats you'd have to look at if you wanted to know just what sort of player George Mikan was and what his impact was.

For players of today...? I hardly ever watch the Rockets these days, I see a few highlights, know a few names. I'll got to the stat sheet to see who they have and what they do if I want a primer to watch them. Or I won't and make judgements on what I see in the one game I watched - which won't help much if someone important is injured.

If you want to converse on a game you clearly care about, I suggest you spend time learning the way others see it. If for nothing else, more ammo to fight against a view you do not share.

69centers
05-15-2012, 09:07 AM
You need to learn how to read stats.

Some all time greats played well into their decline phase - meaning their percentages dropped. You might want to look at the best 3, 5, 7 years of a players career to get around that issue.

Other players - say Havlicek are volume scorers. He scored a lot his shooting percentages even in his time was meh. He also played great D, and could pass and ball handle a bit. He was also on a lot of great teams. I don't have to look him up to know he's well down the list of eFG% or TS% all time players.

That's where these stats become flawed. When they can't decipher on their own who are "volume" scorers. But with the majority of the more widely used stats, you will find that the guys at the top of the list are the best of the best.

Green_Monster
05-15-2012, 10:24 AM
Tell me sage one, what is better?

A player that takes 9 FG's and 3 FT's to average 11.9 PPG

OR

A player that takes 13 FG's and 3 FT's to average 11.9 PPG


You do realize that shooting (except a FT that isn't the last FT due in a turn) is inherently risky because you are more then 50% likely to lose possession on each miss....

If you count those misses and loss of possession as turnovers of possession which is what they are, Rondo's turnover rate per minute on the floor goes up. It's not small potatoes, it's a big deal.

I had a kid on a 14 year old AAU team that was somewhat similar. Great passing, great D, tough, smart, good not great ball handler. Couldn't shoot (although his FT's were better then Rondo). Guess what? He didn't shoot. He picked out the open man (or most open), and went to a spot where his teammates knew he'd be for a pass back, and he'd high tail it down floor to play D on a change of possession. Rondo sometimes goes hunting rebounds when he is supposed to be going down floor. Rondo shoots because of the 24 second shot clock, and his options have been removed by the D on some offensive plays.

I get what your saying. But what's wrong with Rondo doing what I bolded, when he has people around him that can carry a heavy load of the offense? I'll take his 11 PPG from layups and put back from rebounds. Personally, I want my PG to be a great defender, and passer. I want him to be smart and tough, like you wrote. Being a good scorer is only a plus for me.

Can guys like Rose, Williams, Westbrook, Parker, and Nash offer the same defense, passing, toughness and court smarts like Rondo can? Maybe they have a few of those, but they don't have all of them.

Chronz
05-15-2012, 11:25 AM
I enjoy accurate stats that truly show who the best players are at given mesurements. Not stats where all time great players aren't even top 100, and no names rank top 10 all time.
Is that a yes or a no to the questions I asked?

Your making less sense how do you not enjoy the most accurate measure of scoring efficiency?



Look at 3p%. The great Steve Kerr sits atop the list, hes a role player. Does that mean 3P% is a horrible stat? Sounds to me you dont enjoy stats because how can you enjoy something you cant comprehend?

Chronz
05-15-2012, 11:28 AM
That's where these stats become flawed. When they can't decipher on their own who are "volume" scorers. But with the majority of the more widely used stats, you will find that the guys at the top of the list are the best of the best.
False, they decipher what they are meant to, its why you will find that ACTUAL STATISTICIANS AND GM's use them in practice to observe efficiency.


FG% doesnt decipher who the volume scorers are. Neither does FT% or 3P%, by your book you dont like these stats either, in which case it makes sense why your view on the game is so jaded.

roshan3ai
05-15-2012, 11:42 AM
roshy babe are you enjoying what I deal with everyday?

:laugh2: this is brutal.

bagwell368
05-15-2012, 11:47 AM
That's where these stats become flawed. When they can't decipher on their own who are "volume" scorers. But with the majority of the more widely used stats, you will find that the guys at the top of the list are the best of the best.

Nobody said you should judge guys just on stats alone. If you want to make a judgement on a guy as being a volume scorer, you might want to look at PPG (and note where he fits on the team and league) and then FGA, then FTA. If the guy is shooting at league average percentage wise but is 10th in FGA, and low in FTA you know right away it's a volume guy, who is probably a #2 or a #3 that doesn't do much work inside. A rate/percentage stat such as eFG% can't tell you anything about FGA.

I'm sorry, you are falling into your trend of using opinions/stats at hand, and going with what "they say". Do you even care that your words here are so thoroughly derivative of "what they say". Try putting yourself in Germany on January 30, 1933 and "do and say" what is popular for the next 12 years and 3 months.

bagwell368
05-15-2012, 12:05 PM
I get what your saying. But what's wrong with Rondo doing what I bolded

Nothing. What is wrong is when he gets labeled as "great" when he is as erratic as an elevator in a skyscraper on the busiest day of the year.

I seek to see him and label him for what he is. I find it intellectually wrong/offensive when people let being a fan color their perceptions so much that the product they see is so unlike what it is in fact is. Seriously, it's lying to yourself. What's the value in that? Find a barroom full of guys that worship the same laundry and speak incoherently about what they do not see clearly? Yeah, that's a good time...


I'll take his 11 PPG from layups and put back from rebounds.

But Rondo takes plenty of shots from outside. Not including last night he was at 16.1 FGA per game in the playoffs - good god!


Personally, I want my PG to be a great defender, and passer.

I want more. I want a complete player. I want a team that does everything at the right time, and can do it properly. Obviously that's not likely. But there have been teams with better passing that didn't even has a "true" PG.


I want him to be smart and tough, like you wrote. Being a good scorer is only a plus for me.

The object of the offense outside of scoring is to create problems for the defense in a way that makes defense harder to play - so that the offense can do what it likes with the least amount of harassment. If Rondo was efficient at scoring that would be one more way to confound a defense.


Can guys like Rose, Williams, Westbrook, Parker, and Nash offer the same defense, passing, toughness and court smarts like Rondo can? Maybe they have a few of those, but they don't have all of them.

You have looked at the PG you like, and declared that his best traits are what you like, and what he doesn't do you don't care about. That's a self full filling prophecy. I can name 6 guys for sure that in a vacuum are better PG's then Rondo. I can name two more that are no worse then equal to Rondo. Last year Rondo was even further down the list. Rondo is someplace between above average and very good (but below elite and great).

The reason I believe Rondo causes so much excitement is that he's different. However he didn't invent the game or the position, he's adapted his physique and talents to the job pretty well. By far his two largest holes are: shooting efficiency outside of 10 feet and his mecurial emotions/acting out. Until he solves the 2nd, and makes real strides on the 1st he will never be great or elite or a successful leader of a team in transition.

thekmp211
05-15-2012, 12:38 PM
rondos advanced playoff stats for this postseason (7 games)

22.5 PER, WITH a TS% of 46%!! 9.5 TR% for a point guard, and those have been big rebounds in big moments so please don't tel me it's not his job. we are the worst rebounding team in the league -- we do need him to crash the boards and contribute from that spot because our 4 and 5 have been useless in that regard basically all season (KG renaissance has changed this a bit).

but again, the passing. he leads the playoffs with a just stupefying 59.2 AST% coupled with a TOV% of 18.6. both marks are better than his regular season numbers, where you might remember he led the league in assists and put together some historic passing run that only john stockton has matched.

he's been very good on defense, a bit better than the regular season (as has the team). leads the playoffs in steal rate, although he's had trouble with turner at times in these last two games (for good reason).

he's been the difference a couple times in a good way. hasn't lost us a game with his flaws (we dodged a bullet thanks to pierce in game 2) but otherwise yeah. so?

bagwell368
05-15-2012, 01:06 PM
rondos advanced playoff stats for this postseason (7 games)

22.5 PER, WITH a TS% of 46%!! 9.5 TR% for a point guard, and those have been big rebounds in big moments so please don't tel me it's not his job. we are the worst rebounding team in the league -- we do need him to crash the boards and contribute from that spot because our 4 and 5 have been useless in that regard basically all season (KG renaissance has changed this a bit).

but again, the passing. he leads the playoffs with a just stupefying 59.2 AST% coupled with a TOV% of 18.6. both marks are better than his regular season numbers, where you might remember he led the league in assists and put together some historic passing run that only john stockton has matched.

he's been very good on defense, a bit better than the regular season (as has the team). leads the playoffs in steal rate, although he's had trouble with turner at times in these last two games (for good reason).

he's been the difference a couple times in a good way. hasn't lost us a game with his flaws (we dodged a bullet thanks to pierce in game 2) but otherwise yeah. so?

A short snapshot. Atlanta is a deeply flawed team almost as bad as the NYK last year. Hence, stats will pile up. Rondo's USG% is up which explains his AST% to some extent (not to mention home town statistician). His TOV% is quite good however. He's getting steals - nice.

Rondo is like the weather around here - don't like it? Wait a minute, it'll change.

Shouldn't the stat page say 8 games - oh yeah... he got suspended for a game.. smart move that.

Rondo is shooting .545 from FT, his worst mark ever (although it's a mere 11 attempted, which is also quite low compared to earlier in his career), and his FG% is the worst since 2008-2009.

He's playing well. KG is playing better.

Chronz
05-15-2012, 01:13 PM
Rondo has a disgusting Offensive RTG and with a usage as high as his PER is more forgiving for his lack of efficiency, still his all-around play keeps him at an All-Star level whereas Pierce is inefficient but not contributing in other areas, though I dont know how healthy he is, I wonder if he would benefit from having more control of the ball and a PG who can space it out for him.

smith&wesson
05-15-2012, 01:18 PM
c.paul
rose
westbrook
rondo
parker
d.will

thekmp211
05-15-2012, 01:36 PM
A short snapshot. Atlanta is a deeply flawed team almost as bad as the NYK last year. Hence, stats will pile up. Rondo's USG% is up which explains his AST% to some extent (not to mention home town statistician). His TOV% is quite good however. He's getting steals - nice.

Rondo is like the weather around here - don't like it? Wait a minute, it'll change.

Shouldn't the stat page say 8 games - oh yeah... he got suspended for a game.. smart move that.

Rondo is shooting .545 from FT, his worst mark ever (although it's a mere 11 attempted, which is also quite low compared to earlier in his career), and his FG% is the worst since 2008-2009.

He's playing well. KG is playing better.

lol. well he's been on a steady uptick since this team got its act together mid-season. and so i see this as a steady progression over the course of a season. will agree that KG has been better -- he's been perhaps the most impactful single player on a playoff team so far. but rondo is the clear #2 and it's working out, so far. we'll see.


Rondo has a disgusting Offensive RTG and with a usage as high as his PER is more forgiving for his lack of efficiency, still his all-around play keeps him at an All-Star level whereas Pierce is inefficient but not contributing in other areas, though I dont know how healthy he is, I wonder if he would benefit from having more control of the ball and a PG who can space it out for him.

it hasn't really been a factor through out their time together. pierce is so good at creating space for himself on jumpers and drives. it's a physical series and i just think it's that much tougher for him with the injury. i would like to see doc trust pietrus more if he stays hot after last night, but the fact is i can't blame him for only trusting pierce on the clutch to at least make the right decisions if he couldn't score.

BKellz
05-15-2012, 02:04 PM
No he is not a star. He cant Shoot, He plays with 3 all-stars and good role players all who can score (which is why he gets all these assists), teams barely guard him, he cant shoot free throws, he still makes awful decisions. So no he is not even close to a star. He just happens to be on team that makes him look better than what he really is.

He does rebound Ill give him credit for that, but thats really it.

Green_Monster
05-15-2012, 04:13 PM
Nothing. What is wrong is when he gets labeled as "great" when he is as erratic as an elevator in a skyscraper on the busiest day of the year.

He's surely not great, but he's no scrub.


But Rondo takes plenty of shots from outside. Not including last night he was at 16.1 FGA per game in the playoffs - good god!

A good chunk of those outside shots are when he doesn't have anyone open to pass to, so he has to chuck it.


I want more. I want a complete player. I want a team that does everything at the right time, and can do it properly. Obviously that's not likely. But there have been teams with better passing that didn't even has a "true" PG.

You want a complete player? None of the other PG's you labled above Rondo are complete players.


The object of the offense outside of scoring is to create problems for the defense in a way that makes defense harder to play - so that the offense can do what it likes with the least amount of harassment. If Rondo was efficient at scoring that would be one more way to confound a defense.

The Celtics team right now already has 3 very good outside shooters.


You have looked at the PG you like, and declared that his best traits are what you like, and what he doesn't do you don't care about. That's a self full filling prophecy. I can name 6 guys for sure that in a vacuum are better PG's then Rondo. I can name two more that are no worse then equal to Rondo. Last year Rondo was even further down the list. Rondo is someplace between above average and very good (but below elite and great).

Because you, and many other people, only care about scoring now a days. It's crazy, there is more to basketball then being about to shoot from the outside. Defense, rebounding, Passing, Basketball IQ, Court vision, inside scoring.


The reason I believe Rondo causes so much excitement is that he's different. However he didn't invent the game or the position, he's adapted his physique and talents to the job pretty well. By far his two largest holes are: shooting efficiency outside of 10 feet and his mecurial emotions/acting out. Until he solves the 2nd, and makes real strides on the 1st he will never be great or elite or a successful leader of a team in transition.

He's 26. Do you think Shaq and KG weren't/aren't great players because they act out? Yeah, didn't think so.

Chronz
05-15-2012, 04:21 PM
it hasn't really been a factor through out their time together.
Yes it has, without Rondo if Pierce isnt shooting well hes at least dishing it out. Thats not an option for him right now because of Rondo's presence. Remember all those games where he just racked up the assists in games Rondo missed? On the year with Rondo on the court Pierce averages 3.6Ast per36, without him that number jumps up to 7.9. He also seems to get to the line more frequently as well. Thats been the case for years, but you cant maximize Rondo without allowing him to dominate the rock and Pierce can be effective with or without the ball so its obvious you have to let Rondo handle the ball since hes pretty inept without it. Its the only way to maximize the team.

My only question is if Pierce is healthy enough to perform that role right now. Considering he has Iggy draped on him Im inclined to say you need a fully healthy Pierce to play that way.

thekmp211
05-15-2012, 04:33 PM
Yes it has, without Rondo if Pierce isnt shooting well hes at least dishing it out. Thats not an option for him right now because of Rondo's presence. Remember all those games where he just racked up the assists in games Rondo missed? On the year with Rondo on the court Pierce averages 3.6Ast per36, without him that number jumps up to 7.9. He also seems to get to the line more frequently as well. Thats been the case for years, but you cant maximize Rondo without allowing him to dominate the rock and Pierce can be effective with or without the ball so its obvious you have to let Rondo handle the ball since hes pretty inept without it. Its the only way to maximize the team.

My only question is if Pierce is healthy enough to perform that role right now. Considering he has Iggy draped on him Im inclined to say you need a fully healthy Pierce to play that way.

most of the other stuff i would attribute to a role adjustment, which has ultimately worked out because that core, when healthy of course, has been a championship contender since it was assembled. interesting that he goes to the line more though. that would certainly help him if he's gimpy to get going, with or without rondo on the floor. is he a more efficient scorer with rondo on or off the court, per36?

82games ranks the current starting 5 as the best overall lineup all season which is pretty clear. bradley/pietrus/pierce/bass/garnett is ranked 7th, the first 5 man unit to not feature rondo. but frankly that is maybe a lineup that could have been utilized last night. pietrus was hot, let pierce handle the ball and hopefully stay hot enough to neutralize the loss of rondo for his shooting woes. kind of gutsy call like keeping k-mart going for the clippers. nah mean?

Lim
05-15-2012, 07:00 PM
I know in the 60's they were a lot stingier handing out assists then now. I believe the same is true of Magic's era.

Magic is one of the 5 greatest players ever, and Rondo doesn't even rank in the top 6 PG's this year IMO - and it's a weak year for PG's IMO. Do you know what's coming next?

Comparing Magic to Rondo is beyond ridiculous.

im not. just saying hes on pace to beat it, which he is ( i think)

69centers
05-15-2012, 07:06 PM
Is that a yes or a no to the questions I asked?

Your making less sense how do you not enjoy the most accurate measure of scoring efficiency?

Look at 3p%. The great Steve Kerr sits atop the list, hes a role player. Does that mean 3P% is a horrible stat? Sounds to me you dont enjoy stats because how can you enjoy something you cant comprehend?

You use 3PT% to judge the better 3 point players in the league, not ALL players. Too many people use advanced stats and only advanced stats to try to say they encompass and clearly prove every comparison. TS% should never alone be used to judge anyone. Scoring efficiency isn't always a judge of a player either.

No stat tells us: Where is the heart; winning the jump balls; getting a ball back by causing a jump ball; the tips from out of bounds to your teammate; the behind the back impossible pass that isn't deciphered on a stat sheet compared to any other assist; the throwing an out of bounds ball off the opposing guy's shin; the ability to run the floor and call a play without looking at your coach; the screen you set to free up a 3 point shooter; getting the ball inbounds under pressure; fouling to prevent a layup.


I'm sorry, you are falling into your trend of using opinions/stats at hand, and going with what "they say". Do you even care that your words here are so thoroughly derivative of "what they say". Try putting yourself in Germany on January 30, 1933 and "do and say" what is popular for the next 12 years and 3 months.

And I'm sorry you completely dismiss paid professional analysis and only go by your own internet stat digging and advanced stat debates on PSD. You're pretty smug to ALWAYS dismiss any professional sports figures' opinions.

Chronz
05-15-2012, 07:26 PM
You use 3PT% to judge the better 3 point players in the league, not ALL players.
Same thing with TS%, you use it to judge the most efficient scorers. Hence its superiority to FG%.


Too many people use advanced stats and only advanced stats to try to say they encompass and clearly prove every comparison.
That doesnt render the stat meaningless. You dont buy a Lambo and expect it to carry your family around do you?

Besides the only one using stats as a singular measure is you, remember, your the same guy who said look at the list as if 1 stat were all encompassing.


TS% should never alone be used to judge anyone. Scoring efficiency isn't always a judge of a player either.
Then why would you say something so foolish as "look at the leaders in TS%"? As if thats all that were to it. The point remains its a superior measure of scoring efficiency than plain ol FG% or 3P%, and second only to PPP in terms of Offensive efficiency overall.

If you dont like stats then dont use them, but dont act like you have more of an understanding about them than ACTUAL STATISTICIANS AND GM's. Your opinion of these stats are meaningless in comparison. I share their viewpoint on stats, not your unsubstantiated, biased views.




No stat tells us: Where is the heart; winning the jump balls; getting a ball back by causing a jump ball; the tips from out of bounds to your teammate; the behind the back impossible pass that isn't deciphered on a stat sheet compared to any other assist; the throwing an out of bounds ball off the opposing guy's shin; the ability to run the floor and call a play without looking at your coach; the screen you set to free up a 3 point shooter; getting the ball inbounds under pressure; fouling to prevent a layup.
Totally irrelevant to my topic

bagwell368
05-15-2012, 07:37 PM
will agree that KG has been better -- he's been perhaps the most impactful single player on a playoff team so far. but rondo is the clear #2 and it's working out, so far. we'll see.

Yes Rondo is #2 for the Celts in the playoffs so far. That in large part is due to Allen not playing as much/being healthy. And something is clearly wrong with PP.

bagwell368
05-15-2012, 07:40 PM
im not. just saying hes on pace to beat it, which he is ( i think)

I'd like to see what the assist counts per game per team were back then vs now. I'll try and check later.

bagwell368
05-15-2012, 07:50 PM
And I'm sorry you completely dismiss paid professional analysis and only go by your own internet stat digging and advanced stat debates on PSD. You're pretty smug to ALWAYS dismiss any professional sports figures' opinions.

Only stat digging? Please.

I wrote a few weeks ago I don't usually watch games with the sound on. Commentary meant for the lowest common denominator, over emphasis on fan favorites such as dunks... Oh yeah I need to listen to that. I'm sorry it disturbs your sense of proportion that I don't care what most of them say, they have proven to be wrong too often to accept w/o filtration. Some writers are good most of the time, almost all the idiots are good sometime, but I don't have time to filter that all out. I'd rather be here, trying to get people to think for themselves - since health/age prevents me from playing or coaching anymore.

bagwell368
05-15-2012, 08:16 PM
He's surely not great, but he's no scrub.

Did I say he was?



A good chunk of those outside shots are when he doesn't have anyone open to pass to, so he has to chuck it.

That's unique, never before been faced by guys that hold the ball as much as Rondo.....


You want a complete player? None of the other PG's you labled above Rondo are complete players.

I didn't label anyone in this debate. But on balance at least six guards are more valuable then Rondo, and two are in the same bracket with him.


The Celtics team right now already has 3 very good outside shooters.

Strongly disagree, Allen isn't playing as much as he used to, and PP is clearly not playing well due to injury. This would be a fine time for Rondo to step up.


Because you, and many other people, only care about scoring now a days.

WTF are you talking about? Go ahead and find any words I have ever written in PSD that indicates that's what I think.


It's crazy, there is more to basketball then being about to shoot from the outside. Defense, rebounding, Passing, Basketball IQ, Court vision, inside scoring.

TOV's, steals and rebounds headed downward the past few years along with FT% and FG%



He's 26. Do you think Shaq and KG weren't/aren't great players because they act out? Yeah, didn't think so.

He's in year six. He's no kid. My agenda is I want him to be better and I want people to see him clearly. Like those notable Rondo can do no wrong posters you claim he is the model PG and defend him against all sorts of clear and obvious issues. Exposed wearing green tinted specs.

Rondo is a universe away from doing as much as Shaq and KG, he doesn't get as much rope as they do, and I'd argue Rondo's crap is much higher then either of them in the first six years.

This year and last year Rondo played at a worse level then the two prior years. What's the excuse, the big 3 getting long in the tooth? Or Rondo is in early decline?

Hustlenomics
05-15-2012, 09:16 PM
Totally irrelevant to my topic

and it's completely relevant when judging Rondo

Chronz
05-15-2012, 09:18 PM
and it's completely relevant when judging Rondo
They are 2 different topics. Dont jump into something you dont understand.

Green_Monster
05-15-2012, 09:34 PM
Did I say he was?

Everyone knows you don't like Rondo.


That's unique, never before been faced by guys that hold the ball as much as Rondo.....

Players not getting open is Rondo's fault? God, I've heard it all.


I didn't label anyone in this debate. But on balance at least six guards are more valuable then Rondo, and two are in the same bracket with him.

Because they shoot better?


WTF are you talking about? Go ahead and find any words I have ever written in PSD that indicates that's what I think.

Sense you think 6 PG's are better than Rondo, and 2 are pretty much tied, you must put most of your money on shooting. Because Rondo beats most of them in every other category.


TOV's, steals and rebounds headed downward the past few years along with FT% and FG%

He TOV% percentage went down for last year actually. His rebounds are actually the highest they've been in 3 years.


He's in year six. He's no kid. My agenda is I want him to be better and I want people to see him clearly. Like those notable Rondo can do no wrong posters you claim he is the model PG and defend him against all sorts of clear and obvious issues. Exposed wearing green tinted specs.

Rondo is a universe away from doing as much as Shaq and KG, he doesn't get as much rope as they do, and I'd argue Rondo's crap is much higher then either of them in the first six years.

This year and last year Rondo played at a worse level then the two prior years. What's the excuse, the big 3 getting long in the tooth? Or Rondo is in early decline?

Early decline? :laugh2: It doesn't help that his 3 main options are in their mid/late 30's?

bagwell368
05-15-2012, 10:25 PM
Everyone knows you don't like Rondo.

Wrong quiz kid. I don't like when people overrate him.


Players not getting open is Rondo's fault? God, I've heard it all.

Comprehension issues? Every player that holds the ball as much as Rondo is forced into some hurried shots... hardly unique.


Because they shoot better?

That's part of the reason. You know "point guards" are a subset from "players". Just because your ideal is a PG that just distributes and hardly shoots doesn't make it right. What it does FOR SURE is put more pressure to create/take shots on the other 4 guys on the floor. What it does is make Rondo dangerous to have on the floor late in close games.


Sense you think 6 PG's are better than Rondo, and 2 are pretty much tied, you must put most of your money on shooting. Because Rondo beats most of them in every other category.

Why don't you ruminate on what players can and must do. One of the significant jobs of a starting player who is also one of the better players on the team is to play a complete a game as he can. A guy that plays D and rebounds and never shoots is a role player unless he's Rodman, in which case since he's so good at what he does he ends up in the HOF for being a super role player. Rondo gets rebounds - but not like Rodman. Rondo passes a lot better then Rodman ever did/could. Rondo and Rodman on D is an interesting topic - and neither can shoot very well.

Is that what you are happy with? The Rodman of PG's? A guy with a gaping hole in his game? A guy that against all expectations is regressing the past two years on his shooting. He came into the league and was raw shooting and that was expected. Then he got better, then in years 3 and 4 he got even better. Sure there were issues with shooting but they were getting better and his emotionalism seemed to be taming down. I started writing he was on a HOF trajectory right here in PSD. Then these last two years - worse shooting, and many more emotional meltdowns - infant/toddler level idiocy. This is the guy you want to the lead the Celts. The Celts of Russell, Bird, Cowens, Havlicek, Jones, DJ? He's not suited for the job, for the pressure. What's he going to do when he has to be the 2nd scorer? I'll tell what will happen the Celts will be in the lottery is what will happen. So yeah, shooting actually matters.


He TOV% percentage went down for last year actually. His rebounds are actually the highest they've been in 3 years.

Per 36 minutes:

Rondo's rebounding is lower the last 3 years then his first 3 years

Rondo's St's this year were the lowest in his six year career

Percentages:

Rondo's TOV% (and TOV's) are well higher this year and last then in any of the previous 4 years. Although to be fair he held the ball more

Rondo's FT% are the worst the last 2 years then any of the 4 prior years

Rondo's FG% are the worst the last 2 years then any of the prior 3 years.

Rondo's ORtg was lower this year then the last 4 years.


Early decline? :laugh2: It doesn't help that his 3 main options are in their mid/late 30's?

I asked a question - why are Rondo's numbers going down as indicated above in many areas (not just shooting). Is he in decline (that's that sarcastic ha-ha choice) or is he going downhill because his binkies are getting old - and if that is so - and I believe it to be so, then as I say, Rondo will not be the right fit for the Celts in the next couple of years and we may rue the day the Celts didn't deal him for a better shooting PG.

Celtic5
05-16-2012, 12:11 PM
[QUOTE=Chronz;22180059]It got the Twolves in better position than they wouldve been if Love hadnt been putting up monster stats, whats your point? When you have to fault a single player for the ultimate fate of his team, thats when you have nothing relevant to say.

I didn't fault him I'm just saying stats don't tell the whole story. Iverson and Lebron got their teams to the Eastern Conference Finals with similarly dominating seasons statistically and a similar surrounding cast talent-wise. Why didn't Love's stats get the Wolves at least into the playoffs?


Id rather have wins+stats. And if you would rather have Wins over stats then that means you would rather have D-Fish over Rondo. Congrats, your logic has left you in a class all your own.

:laugh: that's funny because if I could trade Rondo for Fisher and it guaranteed more wins, then yes I would. But that's just an idiotic statement on your part.

Disagree, Rondo fills up less important areas of the stat sheet and has to have a perfect cast around him to maximize his effectiveness.

So wrong. He fills up the stat sheet and more importantly does things that don't show up in the stat sheet such as defense, team defense, ability to guard more than one position, leadership on an offense that has three hall of fame players, the ability to get players in a position to succeed, court vision, making passes than noone in the NBA can make, speed, quickness, shall I keep going...

And your telling me he needs the perfect cast around him? What he needs are players that are capable of doing their jobs, just like any other point guard. No question Rondo can put up big time numbers on a garbage team.

And your calling three players past their prime and a bench player a perfect supporting cast?? :facepalm: Maybe in 08


Who says we want him to score more? I would settle for efficient scoring ala Isiah Thomas.

Yes. I would settle for him driving to the basket more and hiding his weakness by shooting less jumpers. All NBA players are flawed in some way, its a fact. We would all love him to shoot like Chris Paul, who IMO is the best PG. Fact is Rondo can do things that no other PG can do, period.

bagwell368
05-16-2012, 04:01 PM
Fact is Rondo can do things that no other PG can do, period.

That's nice (if true), but he'd be more valuable if he traded off 1/3 of his rebounds and 15% of his assists if he was .075 better shooting from outside of 15 feet.

BTW a few posts above here I pointed out Rondo for his many sinking stats these past two years compared to the prior 3 and sometimes 4 years. Got any answer for those? I.E. he's not doing as many "things" and doing them as well as 3 seasons ago - fact.

BTW, I think every PG can pass, throw away the ball, miss shots, and get rebounds, just like Rondo.

69centers
05-16-2012, 04:26 PM
Whether he's better than previous years or not, he's leading everyone in assists this playoffs, by a big margin. I'll take that.

Celtic5
05-16-2012, 05:03 PM
That's nice (if true), but he'd be more valuable if he traded off 1/3 of his rebounds and 15% of his assists if he was .075 better shooting from outside of 15 feet.

BTW a few posts above here I pointed out Rondo for his many sinking stats these past two years compared to the prior 3 and sometimes 4 years. Got any answer for those? I.E. he's not doing as many "things" and doing them as well as 3 seasons ago - fact.

BTW, I think every PG can pass, throw away the ball, miss shots, and get rebounds, just like Rondo.

1. He led the league in assists
2. He was top 5 in the NBA in Assists/Turnover Ratio
3. As bad as his outside shooting is, he was still top 10 at his position in FG%
4. lead all Point Guards in Rebounds.

thekmp211
05-16-2012, 05:15 PM
we can debate how important passing is all day. individual passing anyway. but he's the best passer in the league. better than nash, better than everyone right now.

Celtic5
05-16-2012, 05:16 PM
That's nice (if true), but he'd be more valuable if he traded off 1/3 of his rebounds and 15% of his assists if he was .075 better shooting from outside of 15 feet.

BTW a few posts above here I pointed out Rondo for his many sinking stats these past two years compared to the prior 3 and sometimes 4 years. Got any answer for those? I.E. he's not doing as many "things" and doing them as well as 3 seasons ago - fact.

BTW, I think every PG can pass, throw away the ball, miss shots, and get rebounds, just like Rondo.

He played 80 3 seasons ago, 81 games 2 seasons ago. 68 last year. 53 this year. His MPG have gone up which doesnt help his stat average. His FG% is down because his outside shot attempts are up (Which I don't like). His Assists have gone up. His Rebounds are up. His FT% and Steals are way down Ill give you that...

You act like he completely fell off :laugh2: Shall I pull up Chris Paul's stats and do the exact same thing. Look it up...

bagwell368
05-16-2012, 06:42 PM
1. He led the league in assists

Rondo did not lead the league in Assist % or total assists - he led in APG - which has a major caveat - he missed 20% of his games.


2. He was top 5 in the NBA in Assists/Turnover Ratio

Top 5, not top 1.


3. As bad as his outside shooting is, he was still top 10 at his position in FG%

That because when he isn't slip sliding around he makes his lay-ups. And Top 10? So above average is what you are trumpeting. Pretty lame. Got any comments on his FT% - or the fact that he is taking a lot less then he used to do (shy of going inside?)


4. lead all Point Guards in Rebounds.

I can't get stats up at the moment, but I know guys like Irving and Westbrook were right there in TRB per 36 minutes. So, I'm sure there are some PG's with more total rebounds. I'm sorry, but this is simply not a key stat. Middle of the road for starting PG's is probably 3-3.5 TRB per 36. You are reaching, and as I said, Rondo's TRB numbers the last 3 years are less then his 3 prior years. That 1 rebound over average might be his not uncommon ORB while he has abandoned his defensive responsibility.

If you goal was to make Rondo look special and unique and wonderful - I don't think you achieved that - except with Rondo is great types, and they are already on your side. :yawn:

bagwell368
05-16-2012, 06:51 PM
He played 80 3 seasons ago, 81 games 2 seasons ago. 68 last year. 53 this year. His MPG have gone up which doesnt help his stat average. His FG% is down because his outside shot attempts are up (Which I don't like). His Assists have gone up. His Rebounds are up. His FT% and Steals are way down Ill give you that...

Yes, his games played went down this year - 20% of the season - making top 10 MVP voting for him ridiculous.

Good players play more minutes, or haven't you heard?

Rondo's assists and rebounds per 36 minutes have gone down not up - which I was careful to note in that prior post. Now you have to use Rondo's extra minutes to hide his declining numbers? Fact is most 25 and 26 years olds on his trajectory at 23 and 24 do not have their rate (percentage) stats and totals go down like Rondo has. Look it up. Now explain it.


You act like he completely fell off. Shall I pull up Chris Paul's stats and do the exact same thing. Look it up...

Please provide evidence where I said he "completely fell off". He fell off a measurable amount in a number of areas. What is your answer - and save the quips this time.

Chris Paul is a decisively better player then Rondo. An off year for Paul is better then anything Rondo has ever done. Look it up.

Green_Monster
05-16-2012, 08:46 PM
Wrong quiz kid. I don't like when people overrate him.

So when people overrate him, you like to go and underrate him?


Comprehension issues? Every player that holds the ball as much as Rondo is forced into some hurried shots... hardly unique.

Holds the ball as much as Rondo? :laugh2: He's a PG.


That's part of the reason. You know "point guards" are a subset from "players". Just because your ideal is a PG that just distributes and hardly shoots doesn't make it right. What it does FOR SURE is put more pressure to create/take shots on the other 4 guys on the floor. What it does is make Rondo dangerous to have on the floor late in close games.

Just because your ideal player has to score or he sucks?


Why don't you ruminate on what players can and must do. One of the significant jobs of a starting player who is also one of the better players on the team is to play a complete a game as he can. A guy that plays D and rebounds and never shoots is a role player unless he's Rodman, in which case since he's so good at what he does he ends up in the HOF for being a super role player. Rondo gets rebounds - but not like Rodman. Rondo passes a lot better then Rodman ever did/could. Rondo and Rodman on D is an interesting topic - and neither can shoot very well.

Why do you only care about shooting? I really would like to know, because you ignore everything Rondo is good at.


Is that what you are happy with? The Rodman of PG's? A guy with a gaping hole in his game? A guy that against all expectations is regressing the past two years on his shooting. He came into the league and was raw shooting and that was expected. Then he got better, then in years 3 and 4 he got even better. Sure there were issues with shooting but they were getting better and his emotionalism seemed to be taming down. I started writing he was on a HOF trajectory right here in PSD. Then these last two years - worse shooting, and many more emotional meltdowns - infant/toddler level idiocy. This is the guy you want to the lead the Celts. The Celts of Russell, Bird, Cowens, Havlicek, Jones, DJ? He's not suited for the job, for the pressure. What's he going to do when he has to be the 2nd scorer? I'll tell what will happen the Celts will be in the lottery is what will happen. So yeah, shooting actually matters.

I am very happy with a player that is amazing at passing, defending and rebounding. Also he has a high Basketball IQ and great court vision. Not to mention, he can score. Not shoot, but score.

Yes, I said I want him to lead the Celtics. :rolleyes:


Per 36 minutes:

Rondo's rebounding is lower the last 3 years then his first 3 years

Per 36 Minutes

09/10- 4.4
10/11- 4.2
11/12- 4.7


Percentages:

Rondo's TOV% (and TOV's) are well higher this year and last then in any of the previous 4 years. Although to be fair he held the ball more


Rondo's FT% are the worst the last 2 years then any of the 4 prior years.

Rondo's FG% are the worst the last 2 years then any of the prior 3 years.

Yeah, lets not be consistent.

thekmp211
05-16-2012, 09:05 PM
he's just beasting through these playoffs. doesn't that mean anything to you guys?

in particular the guys who are fans of the team. he steps up when our team needs a big win, always has. i can forgive a lot of other things if a guy does that, and also happens to be a unique player all his own.

bagwell368
05-16-2012, 09:16 PM
So when people overrate him, you like to go and underrate him?

Its seems like that to his most irrational fans, but I see it as being much more balanced then either extreme - the actual truth. I don't why you think you should or can put words in my mouth.


Holds the ball as much as Rondo? He's a PG.

Do you understand that you are not even able to read words w/o overreacting/defending your binky. He handles the ball a lot, he is a PG. That means that like other PG's or 2's or 3's that handle the ball a lot - he will be required to take some poor shots. Why do you try and make Rondo look like some unique case - when he in fact is in a group of players that face last second shots? It really ID's you as a defend Rondo at all costs fanatic.


Just because your ideal player has to score or he sucks?

I didn't say Rondo sucked. His shooting outside the paint and at the FT line is weak, and hurts his value. The rather large amount of shots he is taking in the playoffs is exposing this problem. How does that make him suck or not suck. It is an aspect of his game, and between that aspect of his game and his immature behavior it knocks him out of the ranks of the elite PG's in the league.


Why do you only care about shooting? I really would like to know, because you ignore everything Rondo is good at.

I have written in this thread and in other threads about the pros and cons of his game - far beyond shooting. I have pointed out that many of his statistics are going down hill over the past two years including shooting %'s. Why can't you address what I write? Don't bother answering - your words in this thread have you ID'd as one of the prime Rondo fanatics on PSD.


I am very happy with a player that is amazing at passing, defending and rebounding.

Good for you. For me he's an erratic and flawed player capable of some great feats and some awful play both. He's not a leader and will not be able to lead this team forward if he is one of the main "scoring" options.


Also he has a high Basketball IQ and great court vision. Not to mention, he can score. Not shoot, but score.

Sure anybody that takes enough shots can score, it doesn't mean he's good at it. The evidence says he is not. Sorry to destroy your image with the truth. Really don't read my stuff if you want to feel all warm and fuzzy with your teddie bear at night.

As for IQ what about emotional IQ? Not so good, hunh?


Per 36 Minutes

09/10- 4.4
10/11- 4.2
11/12- 4.7

Reading is not your forte is it? I wrote that his 3 most recent years his rebound was lower then his 3 prior years.

5.7
5.0
5.7

all better then:

4.4
4.2
4.7


Yeah, lets not be consistent.

You can't possibly be serious.

LGhost
05-16-2012, 09:23 PM
So when people overrate him, you like to go and underrate him?


\thread

bagwell368
05-16-2012, 09:25 PM
he's just beasting through these playoffs. doesn't that mean anything to you guys?

Yeah it means against weak competition, and with two of his 3 better teammates hurt - he's showing up as the #2 guy on the team so far in the playoffs.

He's got a long way to go to make me forget his prior play and behavior. One would have to be very reactive and not very thoughtful or experienced to bite down on this. I've been a Celts fans since 1966, I don't go overboard for 8-9 games when a guy has 6 years of history. But I do take note certainly. I guess if I was 14 again, I'd be all in the moment.


in particular the guys who are fans of the team. he steps up when our team needs a big win, always has. i can forgive a lot of other things if a guy does that, and also happens to be a unique player all his own.

Really? You mean he stepped up after the Perkins deal? No, in fact he stepped down 14 games out of 16 costing in large part the Celts #1 seeding. He got suspended for a game in these playoffs, and two games earlier this season. He's gotten into it with cameramen and with Cedric Maxwell in the dressing room earlier this year. He doesn't show up to play every game. He got banned from the film room too - all of this above - since 2/22/2011.

Hustlenomics
05-16-2012, 09:26 PM
23 points, 16 assists(they gave two of his away), 6 rebounds
not bad for a scrub

Corey
05-16-2012, 09:28 PM
You're putting words in people's mouths yet again, as you always do.

No one said he was a scrub.

LGhost
05-16-2012, 09:29 PM
23 points, 16 assists(they gave two of his away), 6 rebounds
not bad for a scrub

These are the playoffs... Good performances don't mean much in the playoffs

Rivera
05-16-2012, 09:30 PM
Rondo balls so hard watching him play is awesome hes one of the most unique and skilled players in the nba

Rondo is masterful a joy to watch he can dominate a game without scoring (today he scored though) and he controls the pace of the game probably better than any pg in the nba.

LGhost
05-16-2012, 09:33 PM
Rondo balls so hard watching him play is awesome hes one of the most unique and skilled players in the nba

and he controls the pace of the game probably better than any pg in the nba.

Got any stats to back that up? Cause I don't watch the game

Hustlenomics
05-16-2012, 09:34 PM
^ lmao :laugh:

These are the playoffs... Good performances don't mean much in the playoffs
yep and he's just a "role player" anyway

Green_Monster
05-16-2012, 09:38 PM
Its seems like that to his most irrational fans, but I see it as being much more balanced then either extreme - the actual truth. I don't why you think you should or can put words in my mouth.

Show me an instance were I put words in your mouth, please.


Do you understand that you are not even able to read words w/o overreacting/defending your binky. He handles the ball a lot, he is a PG. That means that like other PG's or 2's or 3's that handle the ball a lot - he will be required to take some poor shots. Why do you try and make Rondo look like some unique case - when he in fact is in a group of players that face last second shots? It really ID's you as a defend Rondo at all costs fanatic.

Exactly, then why did you say "Every player that holds the ball as much as Rondo"?


I didn't say Rondo sucked. His shooting outside the paint and at the FT line is weak, and hurts his value. The rather large amount of shots he is taking in the playoffs is exposing this problem. How does that make him suck or not suck. It is an aspect of his game, and between that aspect of his game and his immature behavior it knocks him out of the ranks of the elite PG's in the league.

Then why do you always rate him so low?


Good for you. For me he's an erratic and flawed player capable of some great feats and some awful play both. He's not a leader and will not be able to lead this team forward if he is one of the main "scoring" options.

Yeah, because he can't shoot jump shots, right?


Sure anybody that takes enough shots can score, it doesn't mean he's good at it. The evidence says he is not. Sorry to destroy your image with the truth. Really don't read my stuff if you want to feel all warm and fuzzy with your teddie bear at night.

Yet you like Westbrook.


As for IQ what about emotional IQ? Not so good, hunh?

That doesn't seem to bother you for Howard and Bynum.


Reading is not your forte is it? I wrote that his 3 most recent years his rebound was lower then his 3 prior years.

5.7
5.0
5.7

all better then:

4.4
4.2
4.7


"Rondo's rebounding is lower the last 3 years then his first 3 years"

No you didn't. If you can't even man up and say you were wrong, then I'm done here.


You can't possibly be serious.

Why, because you like to only pick the years of the stats that support your argument?

thekmp211
05-16-2012, 09:42 PM
Got any stats to back that up? Cause I don't watch the game


^ lmao :laugh:

yep and he's just a "role player" anyway

lol.

Sportfan
05-16-2012, 09:42 PM
16/7/13 on 46% FG. .4 A/TO ratio 3 SPG

18/5/8 43% FG 2 a/to ratio 3 SPG

just sayin...


Rondo's easily been a top 5 guard this postseason, arguably top 3. Westbrook and Lawson are probably top 2, kobe harden and rondo are the next 3

Green_Monster
05-16-2012, 09:43 PM
I don't even think Rondo's a top 5 PG. I just hate when people only look at his shooting, and not the other aspects of his game.

Corey
05-16-2012, 09:43 PM
yep and he's just a "role player" anyway
Whats your definition of a role player?

Rivera
05-16-2012, 09:44 PM
Got any stats to back that up? Cause I don't watch the game

:laugh:

roshan3ai
05-16-2012, 09:44 PM
Arguing this is pointless. The Rondo lovers are never going to budge or accept the truth about him because stats are evil. You're fighting a battle that can't be won by arguing with them.

Hustlenomics
05-16-2012, 09:47 PM
Arguing this is pointless. The Rondo lovers are never going to budge or accept the truth about him because stats are evil. You're fighting a battle that can't be won by arguing with them.

why not just give credit where its due instead of making a bitter post

thekmp211
05-16-2012, 09:48 PM
Arguing this is pointless. The Rondo lovers are never going to budge or accept the truth about him because stats are evil. You're fighting a battle that can't be won by arguing with them.

honestly just take his good games like a champ. this is so arrogant and bitter it's almost palpable.

Sportfan
05-16-2012, 09:50 PM
Yeah it means against weak competition, and with two of his 3 better teammates hurt - he's showing up as the #2 guy on the team so far in the playoffs.


:nod: there you go

magichatnumber9
05-16-2012, 09:52 PM
Rondo is the best point guard in the playoffs besides Westbrook at this point in the playoffs. And that's all that ****ing counts right now.

Rivera
05-16-2012, 09:52 PM
Arguing this is pointless. The Rondo lovers are never going to budge or accept the truth about him because stats are evil. You're fighting a battle that can't be won by arguing with them.

And arguing against stat geeks is pointless becaue they only rely on numbers and dont watch the game of basketball and whatgoes into the game

Its a 2 way street. Its a pointless debate it really is. We just gotta sit back and enjoy the game instead of trying to tear down players.

Most advanced stats are geared towards shots and shot attempts rondos a pretty efficent player for his deffficienes and theres alot that rondo does that doesnt show up in the box score kinda like an old jason kidd

But all most rondo "haters" will say is he cant shoot....we get it we know hes not a good shooter it doesnt make him that much less of a basketball player because he does everything else either really good or great

tonyd3b54
05-16-2012, 11:43 PM
when hes trying hes easily the most fun player in the nba to watch.

roshan3ai
05-16-2012, 11:49 PM
why not just give credit where its due instead of making a bitter post


honestly just take his good games like a champ. this is so arrogant and bitter it's almost palpable.

When did I say anything about tonight? He was fantastic tonight. If he played like this, I wouldn't be debating against him. But he doesn't. One game doesn't change my opinion.

Sportfan
05-16-2012, 11:53 PM
One game is all it takes for some people on here to jump down on rondo's throats for having 1 bad stat category.

StinkEye
05-16-2012, 11:55 PM
Rajon Rondo.

thekmp211
05-16-2012, 11:56 PM
When did I say anything about tonight? He was fantastic tonight. If he played like this, I wouldn't be debating against him. But he doesn't. One game doesn't change my opinion.

it's not "just a game". his 8 games in the playoffs this season, on top of the many playoff gems he has through out his career, are more than one game.

these playoff games are coming off the tail end of a season where, again he led the league in assists and played his most consistent, effective basketball.

if you didn't watch all season that's fine but it's not just a game. he's been steady all season, picking his times to score and pass. it's just ramped up intensity.

Gram
05-17-2012, 12:04 AM
Rajon Rondo.

Corey
05-17-2012, 12:24 AM
Rajon Rondo.

:laugh:

roshan3ai
05-17-2012, 12:33 AM
it's not "just a game". his 8 games in the playoffs this season, on top of the many playoff gems he has through out his career, are more than one game.

these playoff games are coming off the tail end of a season where, again he led the league in assists and played his most consistent, effective basketball.

if you didn't watch all season that's fine but it's not just a game. he's been steady all season, picking his times to score and pass. it's just ramped up intensity.
He has had some great games. But he also has a 6-15, 7 TO game. A 7-22, 6 TO game. A 6-17, 5 TO game. He's had 4 very good games, but the three I just mentioned were duds. He's a top 10 PG. He's gonna have some great games. My initial argument is that he is not a top 6 PG. I stick by that. Guys like Parker, CP3, DWill, Westy, Nash, Rose all put up some awesome games as well. I think their good nights are better and more frequent than Rondo's great nights.

thekmp211
05-17-2012, 12:39 AM
He has had some great games. But he also has a 6-15, 7 TO game. A 7-22, 6 TO game. A 6-17, 5 TO game. He's had 4 very good games, but the three I just mentioned were duds. He's a top 10 PG. He's gonna have some great games. My initial argument is that he is not a top 6 PG. I stick by that. Guys like Parker, CP3, DWill, Westy, Nash, Rose all put up some awesome games as well. I think their good nights are better and more frequent than Rondo's great nights.

6-17 7 TO's ... and SEVENTEEN assists. in a win.

7-22 6 TO's ... and TWELVE assists and FOURTEEN rebounds. in a win.

6-17 5 TO's ... and TWELVE ASSISTS and 5 steals. in a loss. a one point loss.

you are just further illustrating my point. that you don't know how to use these stats. 2/1 asst/to is great when you are creating that much offense for others. again does this disqualify nash as a passer? no.

you referenced two GREAT games as duds. it's just silly. he takes late clock shots, end of quarter shots frequently, so shave 1 miss off of each game to be fair. and the TO numbers are just a hilarious misuse, it's just you trying to prove your point which is funny when we are talking about the best passer in the league.

Corey
05-17-2012, 12:47 AM
Not that I really give a big enough **** to debate this, but ANYONE can get assists on the Celtics.

Everyone is a stud in the catch-and-shoot department.

thekmp211
05-17-2012, 12:55 AM
Not that I really give a big enough **** to debate this, but ANYONE can get assists on the Celtics.

Everyone is a stud in the catch-and-shoot department.

dude im sorry. that's the sorriest line of them all.

do you watch the passes he makes? the ball fakes? the lead passes? back door? threaded? the way he directs traffic before starting to dribble? lead's the break?

like, i get that KG has been wet with the jumper this year. but ray isn't around for the real gimmies anymore. and the rest of the guys aren't any better or worse than any other teammates other great passers have played with. none. bass is off as much as he is on. paul is good at spotting up but doesn't do it a ton. bradley is okay. pietrus has been good, but you should know he's sucked all year. are his lobs to KG gimmies? how about to hollins? and i thought the book on rondo was to lay off and let him score? do you like the celtics dude?

of all the lines rondo haters pull out, this one is the biggest out of all. a 5th grader could tell you he's a special passer. honestly man. you guys should stick to the FT%, that's a real weakness. it just shows where the bias lies.

Corey
05-17-2012, 01:08 AM
Gimme some of that kool-aid

kvrnm
05-17-2012, 01:10 AM
not just anyone can average as many assists as rondo tho

thekmp211
05-17-2012, 02:18 AM
LOL. so rondo isn't a good passer?

is that an an easier question for you to give a moronic answer to? i know more than 3 lines is tough, but this isn't twitter.

being a mod doesn't reserve you the right to be condescending, and it should probably preclude you from making ridiculous assertions.

LGhost
05-17-2012, 06:02 AM
Good points about a player on the Celtics followed by an insult from a mod that represents the Celtics... This is strange

corky831
05-17-2012, 09:00 AM
Not that I really give a big enough **** to debate this, but ANYONE can get assists on the Celtics.

Everyone is a stud in the catch-and-shoot department.

I'm sorry but I disagree with you. If that was the case, AB would have had double digit assists when he filled in for Rondo. But he never did. I understand pierce may have been running the offense more so than AB, but Pierce also is a future HOF. Rondo is a great player, who does have some poor games. But some people think Kobe Bryant is the best player on the planet, but I'll see him shoot 5-20 and have **** games as well. Him and say other stars such as Westbrook and Rose can hide their poor shooting performances a lot of times because they'll get to the FT line about 15 times so they still end up dropping 25-30 pts in the game.

bagwell368
05-17-2012, 09:04 AM
Exactly, then why did you say "Every player that holds the ball as much as Rondo"?

Does not "every player" indicate that there are more then one such players in the NBA? If I had said "only Rondo" then you might have a point, but you don't.


Then why do you always rate him so low?

Career wise he made the top 5 once IMO. He's been in the 7-10 bracket a few times. He was in the 12-15 bracket last year, back to the 7-9 bracket this year. Add them up and average them - he comes out 7-10 (and that doesn't include his rookie year, he gets a pass for that).

To you maybe that's low. To me it's just right. I am certainly not going to change on two playoff series, or that he was great last night. it's one game. The challenge is for him and the Celts - OKC. If Rondo outplays Westbrook, then that will mean a lot. I prefer to see what happens then pre ordain Rondo if you don't mind.


Yeah, because he can't shoot jump shots, right?

I've already written several times all the things that Rondo isn't great at. You seem to be the one that can't focus on anything but that. Try taking some deep breaths.


Yet you like Westbrook.

Westbrook has his own issues - which doesn't include walking away from the Olympic team because Rondo was owning him. He complains too much and acts like a fool as well. But 2 years from now he would project to be a better fit in Boston then Rondo because yes - he can score - among other things.


That doesn't seem to bother you for Howard and Bynum.

Are we talking about PG's or every player in the NBA now?


No you didn't. If you can't even man up and say you were wrong, then I'm done here.

LOL. Read the posts again I said the same thing in both posts. You're done? OK, when you come up with something "real" feel free to come back.


Why, because you like to only pick the years of the stats that support your argument?

Are you unfamiliar with the concept of trends? Only familiar with the Stepford Wives routine?

bagwell368
05-17-2012, 09:05 AM
16/7/13 on 46% FG. .4 A/TO ratio 3 SPG

18/5/8 43% FG 2 a/to ratio 3 SPG

just sayin...


Rondo's easily been a top 5 guard this postseason, arguably top 3. Westbrook and Lawson are probably top 2, kobe harden and rondo are the next 3

Before you go overboard, consider the teams and opposing PG's. Consider the PG's that are out from injury and teams being out of it.

Just sayin...

bagwell368
05-17-2012, 09:06 AM
I don't even think Rondo's a top 5 PG. I just hate when people only look at his shooting, and not the other aspects of his game.

Let me know when you find someone on this thread that thinks that vs what your interpretations of what they are saying is...

Oh yeah, looking at down trends in other stats such as rebounding and steals doesn't count because it doesn't jibe with your belief of his excellence.

bagwell368
05-17-2012, 09:09 AM
why not just give credit where its due instead of making a bitter post

Bitter post? This coming from the King of fluffy Rondo posts OR bitter posts? Please.

bagwell368
05-17-2012, 09:14 AM
honestly just take his good games like a champ. this is so arrogant and bitter it's almost palpable.

I don't see that. I see Rondo fans defending their binky against most/every critique - then when he has a good game - 'nomics is well known for this - he's trumpeted like a returning Ceasar from the wars.

Fact is he's an erratic player. Capable of greatness, and capable of terrible play, and perhaps worse - disinterested play.

If you want us to acknowledge his big games, or periods of games then you (not you specifically) ought the grant the fact that he's not elite or great. No player that is as up and down as he is, with his averages is great. Toss in the emotional baggage/behavior (and his inefficient shooting) and his long term viability as a leader of the Green after the big 3 move on is in question - seriously in question.

bagwell368
05-17-2012, 09:23 AM
And arguing against stat geeks is pointless becaue they only rely on numbers and dont watch the game of basketball and whatgoes into the game

People that do both I find are more well informed then people that just do one - and in particular just do one and spend time picking at the one that they don't do.


Its a 2 way street. Its a pointless debate it really is. We just gotta sit back and enjoy the game instead of trying to tear down players.

Sorry I analyze things: in my career, in my life, in sports. When people yak about a player like Rondo and label him great, and I know damn well he isn't then I'm going to post. You've run into this before. You make assertions, and I break them down.


Most advanced stats are geared towards shots and shot attempts rondos a pretty efficent player for his deffficienes and theres alot that rondo does that doesnt show up in the box score kinda like an old jason kidd

Jason Kidd found his shot in year 5 of his career. Please do expound on all you know about advanced stats. If Rondo shot Parker, he'd probably be a top 3 PG. But he doesn't. So we should bless him anyway because he's exciting and unique?


But all most rondo "haters" will say is he cant shoot....we get it we know hes not a good shooter it doesnt make him that much less of a basketball player because he does everything else either really good or great

I've said a lot more then than he can't shoot efficiently. His other 4 teammates get more defensive pressure and less space too shoot because Rondo is not a threat to shoot much. Also all Rondo extra misses on top of an average shooting PG are turnovers when the Celts don't control the glass, and the Celts are one of the worse rebounding teams in the league - you don't even need a stat sheet to see that - so, missed shots are not good, leaving the scoring to the other players on the floor isn't good either. So knowing that, how can we pretend to say its not a big deal? I guess in Rondo *** kiss heaven it just doesn't matter.

bagwell368
05-17-2012, 09:25 AM
One game is all it takes for some people on here to jump down on rondo's throats for having 1 bad stat category.

Like whom? Then compare it to the other side? The Rondo worshipers have more members then the other side. Go ahead and count it up.

Right.

bagwell368
05-17-2012, 09:29 AM
it's not "just a game". his 8 games in the playoffs this season, on top of the many playoff gems he has through out his career, are more than one game.

It should be 9 but because Rondo is so emotionally unstable it's 8.


these playoff games are coming off the tail end of a season where, again he led the league in assists and played his most consistent, effective basketball.

Sorry, taken as a whole: 2008-2010 Rondo played better per game then this year IMO. If you cut out Rondo's first fairly poor 20-25 games this year, then it's much closer, pending what happens the rest of the way.


if you didn't watch all season that's fine but it's not just a game. he's been steady all season, picking his times to score and pass.

Not so, he didn't start that well. He got suspended for 2 games, and missed 20% of his games overall.

corky831
05-17-2012, 09:34 AM
It is sad but very true, sports nowadays is so stats oriented its not even funny.

bagwell368
05-17-2012, 09:42 AM
Good points about a player on the Celtics followed by an insult from a mod that represents the Celtics... This is strange

I believe that mod is fatigued by the sheer volume and ineptitude of so many of the posts regarding on that board, and the amount of crap that comes his way for even pointing on various truths.

Rondo == Cult

Some guys just capture fans. For some it is deserved (richly) like say Bird or Magic, for other fans it is worship of individual skill over winning, teams, leadership, etc.

Rondo isn't nearly as toxic as the worst "stars", and he's nowhere near as great as Bird and Magic - although some of the most extreme Rondo ball washers might give you an argument.

The PSD NBA crowd as a whole is very young, and very oriented to their teams. That's the truth. Most fans argue laundry and what the announcers point out that is positive about their guy and their team.

Branded.