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View Full Version : Who's the most efficient "inefficient" player of all-time?



NetsPaint
05-13-2012, 02:35 PM
Which player the most (or more than one player) had numbers that looked inefficient, but was because you think it had to do with his teammates, or the player being fouled a lot and would have had more efficient numbers if it wasn't for that, etc.?

tredigs
05-13-2012, 02:39 PM
'...the player being fouled a lot, etc.'?

You're serious with this?

Efficiency goes beyond missed shots, though. Taking care of the ball (i.e. turnover rate/assist%, etc.). That is where a lot of true efficiency lies.

NetsPaint
05-13-2012, 02:44 PM
'...the player being fouled a lot, etc.'?

You're serious with this?

Efficiency goes beyond missed shots, though. Taking care of the ball (i.e. turnover rate/assist%, etc.). That is where a lot of true efficiency lies.
What I mean is there have been players who've gotten to the line a lot (and have been efficient at the line) that they're fg% was deceiving because they were so good in areas of their scoring (such as near the basket).

Yeah, I knew it's more than just scoring.

thekmp211
05-13-2012, 02:49 PM
bill russell. /thread.

tredigs
05-13-2012, 02:57 PM
What I mean is there have been players who've gotten to the line a lot (and have been efficient at the line) that they're fg% was deceiving because they were so good in areas of their scoring (such as near the basket).

Yeah, I knew it's more than just scoring.

I see, so efficiency from the line rather than a result of missing shots because they're fouled a lot - I hear ya. Well, that's why I like ts% (true shooting percentage) as a shooting gauge so much more than field goal%. It weighs 2's and 3's accordingly and takes free throws into account.

If they don't already they should really have a combo stat of ts% and the amount you score per game (reason being a guy like Tyson Chandler leads the league in ts% - and fg% - but the reason is because he only scores 10 a game and they're all put back dunks or passes under the basket. He did not take 10 actual shots the entire season). But you can eye ball it easily.

Encompass that with the rebounding %'s, assists/to%'s and you have PER. PER is far from perfect (no basketball stat can be - the game is WAY too dynamic for stats alone - always will be), but it's a major reason why it's the most popular advanced stat. It's a good one.

tredigs
05-13-2012, 02:59 PM
bill russell. /thread.

Top 5 in fg/ts% for nearly half a decade in that era. His "low fg%" needs to be taken with a big grain of salt. It's all relative.

Top it off with the legendary efficiency of his blocked shots going back to the Celtics and not the opposition - which there actually is a stat for somewhere, don't remember off the top of my head (Duncan is the current king of this - Howard the worst), and you're spot on.

thekmp211
05-13-2012, 03:01 PM
i'd augment what digs said by saying that the reason these stats came about is because traditional stats/evaluating with them was not an effective scouting strategy. smart teams started realizing that per game statistics were in many cases not indicative of a quality player.

the only thing that can really trump an efficient player is a winner. besides playing high level basketball, the ultimate objective is championships. hence my bill russell answer.

what you'll find while perusing the list of championship teams and HoF players is that their greatness is encapsulated as much or more so in metrics as it is in per game numbers. metrics indicate high efficiency, and the more efficient teams are almost always going to win.

thekmp211
05-13-2012, 03:04 PM
Top 5 in fg/ts% for nearly half a decade in that era. His "low fg%" needs to be taken with a big grain of salt. It's all relative.

Top it off with the legendary efficiency of his blocked shots going back to the Celtics and not the opposition - which there actually is a stat for somewhere, don't remember off the top of my head (Duncan is the current king of this - Howard the worst), and you're spot on.

oh absolutely the pace and style of game are totally different, but yeah for the purposes of this question he's the man for the job.

current players? i mean i'd point to the ben wallace/rodman type players. i'd say big men with the aforementioned defense and intangibles are best equipped to win despite playing an "inefficient" brand of ball. rondo jason kidd and andre miller, poor shooters but exceptional floor generals. not many guys though.

Jumi
05-13-2012, 03:11 PM
This is when VDN can earn his paycheck. How long do you go with the guys that are producing and do you even put BG back in with Martin playing so well.........

beasted86
05-13-2012, 03:12 PM
I don't know about all time, but Al Jefferson's efficiency is underrated.... that high of a usage rating and never turns the ball over.

You are either getting a 50% chance at a FG or 77% FT percentage everytime he attempts a shot. That is extremely efficient.

sep11ie
05-13-2012, 03:17 PM
Some people need lives.

Rafer17
05-13-2012, 03:17 PM
What a paradoxical thread title...

-Kobe24-TJ19-
05-13-2012, 03:24 PM
Billups

naps
05-13-2012, 03:24 PM
What? WoW!

jetsfan28
05-13-2012, 03:28 PM
Latrell Sprewell is a great example of this. Offensive rating always hovered around 100 according to Basketball-Reference, looking at his stat sheet you wouldn't think he was good. But when he was in the game as a Knick, he was completely carrying the offensive load. Allen Houston was his second best offensive player, and there was no third best with Ewing unhealthy.

Cal827
05-13-2012, 03:29 PM
Kobe Bryant...

U mad, Laker fans? :D:D:D

thekmp211
05-13-2012, 03:29 PM
Some people need lives.

...says the guy with more posts than anyone above this one...:cool:

Corey
05-13-2012, 03:35 PM
Deron Williams' numbers looked really inefficient this year.

RonE Coleman
05-13-2012, 03:41 PM
Stupid thread

KnicksorBust
05-13-2012, 03:44 PM
Jamal Crawford came to mind. His FG% was always trash but he took a lot of threes, was forced into a role with the Knicks that he never should have had to fill (should have been 6th man but Houston was done), and is a phenomenal FT shooter.

Chronz
05-13-2012, 03:57 PM
You mean the guys with the greatest discrepancies between their FG% and their actual efficiency.

Chauncey Billups owns this thread, hes the 2nd most efficient PG of our generation behind Nash, yet you still had morons (Like Reggie Miller) calling him inefficient.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
05-13-2012, 04:07 PM
You mean the guys with the greatest discrepancies between their FG% and their actual efficiency.

Chauncey Billups owns this thread, hes the 2nd most efficient PG of our generation behind Nash, yet you still had morons (Like Reggie Miller) calling him inefficient.

thats why I said Billups, he may look inefficient with his chucking but his stats say otherwise

b@llhog24
05-13-2012, 04:07 PM
Billups

We have a winner.

sep11ie
05-13-2012, 04:20 PM
My question is who is the most efficiently inefficient player that SEEMS efficient while actually being ineffient?

thekmp211
05-13-2012, 04:24 PM
if we are just talking fg%, yeah TS% has really helped to end those sorts of billups misconceptions. definitely one of better advanced statistics in terms of usefulness.

BSardogan
05-13-2012, 04:38 PM
My question is who is the most efficiently inefficient player that SEEMS efficient while actually being ineffient?

That of course depends on how you define ''efficient''. :o

Cal827
05-13-2012, 06:52 PM
My question is who is the most efficiently inefficient player that SEEMS efficient while actually being ineffient?

Thanks for the clarification. I'll address this question later tonight after a few blunts and about 2 bottles of Rum.:D

MrFastBreak
05-13-2012, 07:47 PM
My question is who is the most efficiently inefficient player that SEEMS efficient while actually being ineffient?

Just to throw one of them out there, Monta Ellis, whose per game stats deceived many and prolly still does.

KnicksorBust
05-13-2012, 07:51 PM
You mean the guys with the greatest discrepancies between their FG% and their actual efficiency.

Chauncey Billups owns this thread, hes the 2nd most efficient PG of our generation behind Nash, yet you still had morons (Like Reggie Miller) calling him inefficient.

I never thought of Billups as ineffecient but in pure FG% vs. TS% this is the best answer.

kozelkid
05-13-2012, 07:59 PM
bill russell. /thread.

Top 5 in fg/ts% for nearly half a decade in that era. His "low fg%" needs to be taken with a big grain of salt. It's all relative.

Top it off with the legendary efficiency of his blocked shots going back to the Celtics and not the opposition - which there actually is a stat for somewhere, don't remember off the top of my head (Duncan is the current king of this - Howard the worst), and you're spot on.

Very interesting. I'd love if you could pm said site that talks of it.

kozelkid
05-13-2012, 08:00 PM
You mean the guys with the greatest discrepancies between their FG% and their actual efficiency.

Chauncey Billups owns this thread, hes the 2nd most efficient PG of our generation behind Nash, yet you still had morons (Like Reggie Miller) calling him inefficient.

First player that came to mind. Same with Granger, especially a few years back.

Raph12
05-14-2012, 01:12 AM
Top it off with the legendary efficiency of his blocked shots going back to the Celtics and not the opposition - which there actually is a stat for somewhere, don't remember off the top of my head (Duncan is the current king of this - Howard the worst), and you're spot on.

And yet the Magic have been the best in the league at paint protection, FG%/FGM/FGA at the rim for the last 4 years with Dwight patrolling the paint... You can take that stat with a grain of salt as well.

Duncan is a great inside presence as well, but he's no Dwight Howard.

Chronz
05-14-2012, 01:39 AM
And yet the Magic have been the best in the league at paint protection, FG%/FGM/FGA at the rim for the last 4 years with Dwight patrolling the paint... You can take that stat with a grain of salt as well.

Duncan is a great inside presence as well, but he's no Dwight Howard.

Hes talking about in his prime

Raph12
05-14-2012, 03:15 AM
Hes talking about in his prime

Then why did he say "current"?... It can be debated all day though; the fact that Dwight has caught more shots/layups and is not blocking into the stands nearly as much as he used to, seems to suggest that he's thinking it's smarter to keep the ball in play as well. But the occasional blast into the 5th row does put a reminder into his opponents that they risk getting on the wrong end of a highlight reel by challenging him.

Chronz
05-14-2012, 03:34 AM
He means among active players, Im presuming this because its an old article that Im sure you commented about before and I dont recall any update on it.

Kashmir13579
05-14-2012, 11:38 AM
If we're using the criteria Chronz described above, Danilo Gallinari also has a spot in the conversation. Low FG%, high offensive rating. Similar to Billups, its from getting to the line and lights out from 3.