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View Full Version : Jays Sign Vlad to Minor League Deal



Converged
05-10-2012, 04:15 PM
As per Ken Rosenthal

https://twitter.com/#!/Ken_Rosenthal/status/200679607794544640

Deal is worth $1.3 million, he will report to extended spring training in Dunedin.

bomber0104
05-10-2012, 04:24 PM
I like it.. he wasn't great last year but he mashed in Texas a couple of years ago. If anything, he's much more intimidating that Adam Lind...

This could also mean that lind is on the move

jon32
05-10-2012, 04:24 PM
The Jays have signed Vladimir Guerrero to a minor league deal according to a site that I cant name. Will look for another legit source to go along with this.

jon32
05-10-2012, 04:25 PM
oops i just made a thread too, oh well mod will delete it

Johann
05-10-2012, 04:26 PM
http://blogs.thescore.com/mlb/2012/05/10/blue-jays-sign-vladimir-guerrero/

Johann
05-10-2012, 04:26 PM
I am quite happy with this.

dtmagnet
05-10-2012, 04:26 PM
I like it.. he wasn't great last year but he mashed in Texas a couple of years ago. If anything, he's much more intimidating that Adam Lind...

This could also mean that lind is on the move

Fingers crossed, but if Vlad is the one who would replace Lind I'm not exactly thrilled either.

Johann
05-10-2012, 04:27 PM
I love Vladdy!

bomber0104
05-10-2012, 04:29 PM
Fingers crossed, but if Vlad is the one who would replace Lind I'm not exactly thrilled either.

they both can't get on base but at least Vlad hits for a decent average and has the intimidating presence in the middle of the lineup even if he isn't the same player he once was..

plus at 1.3 million, i'll take hiim over Lind any day

the_jon
05-10-2012, 04:30 PM
Vlad is better than Lind so at least it's something.

Johann
05-10-2012, 04:30 PM
He hasn't hit under .290 in his career. I am excited. It's like the Frank Thomas, but much less expensive and the more athletic player..

Hall of Famer no doubt.

Twitchy
05-10-2012, 04:30 PM
I swear they just did this move so that they didn't have to promote Snider.

There's not much left in the tank but Vlad is sadly better than Lind.

North Yorker
05-10-2012, 04:31 PM
Replaces Francisco as a Righty bat off the bench? Or does this mean Lind is on the move, EE to 1st, Vlad to DH?

Honestly I would rather Snider have a shot, but if we replaced Francisco and Lind for Vlad and Snider I would be pleased.

bomber0104
05-10-2012, 04:32 PM
He hasn't hit under .290 in his career. I am excited. It's like the Frank Thomas, but much less expensive and the more athletic player..

Hall of Famer no doubt.

not to mention he's 51 HRs away from 500 so he should be motivated to get his career back on track and at least get a ML job next year

leroy
05-10-2012, 04:33 PM
2011
562AB 13HR .290BA .317OBP .733OPS

Far from great, and we can probably expect him to bellow that slash line for the Jays if he makes the club. Overall i'm fine with vlad as long as he takes Lind's AB's away

bomber0104
05-10-2012, 04:33 PM
I swear they just did this move so that they didn't have to promote Snider.

There's not much left in the tank but Vlad is sadly better than Lind.

yeah thats what i'm worried about too.. but if we're finally giving up on Lind, then it wont make a difference since Ben can be released and we'll end up with the same lefty righty combos

Dol-Fan
05-10-2012, 04:34 PM
Replaces Francisco as a Righty bat off the bench? Or does this mean Lind is on the move, EE to 1st, Vlad to DH?

Honestly I would rather Snider have a shot, but if we replaced Francisco and Lind for Vlad and Snider I would be pleased.

This would be optimal. This signing is nice if designed to replace Lind or Francisco, not so much if it blocks Snider. I'd imagine this scenario is most likely (or at least, to me, most sensible) as it represents a talent upgrade while maintaining the L/R balance.

bomber0104
05-10-2012, 04:35 PM
2011
562AB 13HR .290BA .317OBP .733OPS

Far from great, and we can probably expect him to bellow that slash line for the Jays if he makes the club. Overall i'm fine with vlad as long as he takes Lind's AB's away

he was pretty good the prior season though.. if he can manage a line somewhere between those 2, he'll be a nice addition

and there is something about having Vladdy hitting in a Jays jersey.. can't wait for his callup

Converged
05-10-2012, 04:35 PM
Vs LHP:

EE 1B, Vlad DH, Lind Bench

Vs RHP:

Lind 1B, EE DH, Vlad Bench

mtf
05-10-2012, 04:36 PM
Fingers crossed, but if Vlad is the one who would replace Lind I'm not exactly thrilled either.

Agreed. I'm glad to see a move that may spark the end of Lind's time in Toronto but I wanted to see a bigger upgrade.

My hope is that Guerrero moves to DH and Encarnacion to first temporarily, and that later in the season they find a better DH or 1B and move Guerrero to a utility/bench role.

Jays Claw
05-10-2012, 04:36 PM
Vladdy has always hit for a decent average and is a tough guy to strikeout. And at $1.3mil, it's pretty much a low-risk high-reward situation. This would allow EE to move to 1B with all his power and run driving in potential. As for Lind, he can rot in AAA for all I care.

anotherqtip420
05-10-2012, 04:54 PM
Rosenthal will be on Primetime sports at 5pm on Sportsnet 1 or the radio...590???

mtf
05-10-2012, 04:58 PM
And at $1.3mil, it's pretty much a low-risk high-reward situation.

The thing that kinda bothers me about statements like this is that while financially it's correct, the player in question still gets to eat up plate appearances that could be used on another player. I don't think Vladamir Guerrero is particularly good anymore (I hope I'm proven wrong) and if that's true, he'd be a liability just like Lind currently is. Lind is a "low risk" asset in terms of finances and team control as well.

bomber0104
05-10-2012, 05:01 PM
The thing that kinda bothers me about statements like this is that while financially it's correct, the player in question still gets to eat up plate appearances that could be used on another player. I don't think Vladamir Guerrero is particularly good anymore (I hope I'm proven wrong) and if that's true, he'd be a liability just like Lind currently is. Lind is a "low risk" asset in terms of finances and team control as well.

so who you think a pitcher would rather face after Bautista, Lind or Vlad?

like i said, just the intimidation factor is enough

Twitchy
05-10-2012, 05:08 PM
Who is intimated by Guerrerro outside of Buck and Tabler? I can't think of a pitcher who might be intimidated by him.

LuckyLuke2
05-10-2012, 05:11 PM
Last year his stats were not bad at all.

They weren't typical Vladdy numbers but he still racked up 63 RBI's which would have ranked 4th last year on the Blue Jays behind Lind, Arencibia and Bautista.

Also a 290. avg which also is a bit lower then his normal but that's still very good for a guy his age and he was on a Baltimore team that struggled.

He's 37, he should be fine and he's always hit monstrous at the Rogers Center. It's a good risk free signing, and if he does replace Lind who cares Lind has been struggling and been inconsistent for a while now.

Long term replacement no. Short term hell yeah.

Farsight
05-10-2012, 05:13 PM
I completely agree with Twitchy on this issue. Vladdy 4+ years ago was a good player. I do not see the upside in this signing. Furthermore it would take at bats away from Snider/Thames, players who actually have upside and a future in the game

jakedajewler
05-10-2012, 05:14 PM
Jeff Blair just said his bat could play well at home, he is a career .359 hitter at the sky dome

1hardcore
05-10-2012, 05:15 PM
This should've been done a long time ago!

and then you could pinch run Rajai Davis just in case.


i wonder if he still has anything left

North Yorker
05-10-2012, 05:18 PM
eventually I wouldnt mind seeing a line-up of

vs LHP

Johnson L 2B
Escobar R SS
Bautista R RF
EE R 1B
Vlad R DH
Lawrie R 3B
Rasmus L CF
Rajai R LF
JPA R C

vs RHP

Johnson L 2B
Escobar R SS
Bautista R RF
EE R 1B
Rasmus L CF
Lawrie R 3B
Snider L LF
Thames L DH
JPA R C

masTOR_shake1
05-10-2012, 05:27 PM
i like it, wonder how long it will take him to get ito game shape and join the team.

town123
05-10-2012, 05:29 PM
Last year his stats were not bad at all.


Long term replacement no. Short term hell yeah.

Sane response. Not optimistic for sure, but hope for the best, expect the worse and as long as this isn't blocking Snider..... why not?

wings
05-10-2012, 05:36 PM
I think AA is trying something before the trade market gets going in another 5 or 6 weeks. Then he can decide if he still needs to ante for the big bat or maybe make a big deal for a pitcher instead.

TRIUMPHATOR
05-10-2012, 05:47 PM
For me this isn't so much about adding Vladdy, rather it is an indication that AA is concluding his Adam Lind relationship.

Also, how does this block Snider? Was he ever going to be this teams first baseman? Snider may end up being our LF'er (here's hoping). But that is between him over comming his AAAA affliction and overtaking Thames.

wamco
05-10-2012, 06:01 PM
so much for playing the kids in a rebuilding year eh?

FlakeyFool
05-10-2012, 06:04 PM
so much for playing the kids in a rebuilding year eh?

Vlad blocks all the kids right?

Farsight
05-10-2012, 06:11 PM
Vlad blocks Snider/Thames by forcing EE to first and occupying the DH spot. The lineup most of us want is EE at 1b, Thames DH, Snider left field... With the addition of Vlad, now we only have 1 spot available for Snider/Thames. He is taking up a spot were a younger, more talented player (currently) should be getting at bats to develop. However, now we are removing these at bats for a declining Vladdy who is probably not better than Thames/Snider offensive at his point in his career. Furthermore, he is not a good defender

Twitchy
05-10-2012, 06:16 PM
Fun fact:

2 of the past 3 years Vlad has struggled to post an OPS above 709 against LHP.

North Yorker
05-10-2012, 06:18 PM
Vlad blocks Snider/Thames by forcing EE to first and occupying the DH spot. The lineup most of us want is EE at 1b, Thames DH, Snider left field... With the addition of Vlad, now we only have 1 spot available for Snider/Thames. He is taking up a spot were a younger, more talented player (currently) should be getting at bats to develop. However, now we are removing these at bats for a declining Vladdy who is probably not better than Thames/Snider offensive at his point in his career. Furthermore, he is not a good defender

meh not really, if he is only playing DH vs LHP like I think he will. Snider and Thames have been sat vs lefties anyway.

I just like Vladdy as a RHH off the bench over Francisco, that gets an odd start at DH vs a lefty.

Get rid of Lind and Francisco and bring up Snider and Vlad is a trade off I can deal with.

EDIT:

Fun fact:

2 of the past 3 years Vlad has struggled to post an OPS above 709 against LHP.

well that makes my view of this less lovely hah. but without looking at the stats is it safe to assume that he's better vs LHP than Lind/Snider/Thames?

Valleyfella
05-10-2012, 06:20 PM
He's not ideal but they need a veteran bat badly.

JaysFan87
05-10-2012, 06:22 PM
Paves the way for Lind to become a platoon bat with Vladdy and EE.

Twitchy
05-10-2012, 06:31 PM
EDIT:


well that makes my view of this less lovely hah. but without looking at the stats is it safe to assume that he's better vs LHP than Lind/Snider/Thames?

Better than Lind/Snider/Thames is irrelevant because Davis and Francisco, the two RH bats off the bench, are better than Guerrerro vs LHP.

Oddly enough Guerrerro has been better against RHP than LHP in the two years he sucked vs LHP.

StayOnBoard
05-10-2012, 06:33 PM
Replaces Francisco as a Righty bat off the bench? Or does this mean Lind is on the move, EE to 1st, Vlad to DH?

Honestly I would rather Snider have a shot, but if we replaced Francisco and Lind for Vlad and Snider I would be pleased.

Please God yes... I'll drive out to Toronto and pack Linds' bags myself if it would guarantee him traded.

P.S I too would have rathered Snider, but nothing wrong with this signing at all. Vlad > Lind. Sadly, 99% of MLB > Lind...

bomber0104
05-10-2012, 06:34 PM
Who is intimated by Guerrerro outside of Buck and Tabler? I can't think of a pitcher who might be intimidated by him.

Even though it may not make much sense, you can't tell me that Lind and Vlad have the same intimidation factor on a pitcher.. One violent swing is enough to show you the difference..

bomber0104
05-10-2012, 06:40 PM
Better than Lind/Snider/Thames is irrelevant because Davis and Francisco, the two RH bats off the bench, are better than Guerrerro vs LHP.

Oddly enough Guerrerro has been better against RHP than LHP in the two years he sucked vs LHP.

so disregard all the numbers and stuff

would you rather have Vlad or Francisco on the team?

GrumpyOldMan
05-10-2012, 06:50 PM
He isn't what he used to be, and his homerun numbers are way down, but I'd still prefer him to Lind. Ultimately I would like to see him in the Francisco role, but AA better start thinking about a sollution at first base beyond this season.

Johann
05-10-2012, 07:03 PM
Looks like Twitchy and Bomber have switched roles with this Vladdy signing lol

jaysforever
05-10-2012, 07:06 PM
They're just going to take a look at him. No guaranteed deal. Likely would not see him on the big club...but if we do it would mean he could contribute.

mike_noodles
05-10-2012, 07:07 PM
So what's the plan? EE and Vladdy vs lefties?

Johann
05-10-2012, 07:11 PM
So what's the plan? EE and Vladdy vs lefties?

Right now, Vlad is at extended spring training.

the_jon
05-10-2012, 07:18 PM
My main reason for liking this deal is that if we are indeed in a playoff race come late July there will be absolutely no need to rush to find a 1B. We can sit on EE/Vlad for awhile while we wait on the right guy to become available.

Twitchy
05-10-2012, 07:27 PM
so disregard all the numbers and stuff

would you rather have Vlad or Francisco on the team?

I'd rather have Francisco. A guy who can play in the field and is a solid hitter outweighs an aging former slugger who's limited to pinch hitting or the DH role.

Especially when at this point in the game, Vlad really isn't that much better than Francisco.

However with the way they're using Francisco, he's pretty much just a glorified pinch hitter and DH, so that probably makes Vlad the better option. But that's got more to do with the fact that they probably should platoon Rasmus/Thames and Lind, giving Arencibia more at bats vs lefties and potentially seeing if Mathis is the real deal or just benefiting from small sample size. And having Francisco and Davis in the OF would let them do that.

So I guess my answer is Vlad if they won't use Francisco in the OF, but Francisco if they will try to properly platoon some of the people on this team.

Johann
05-10-2012, 07:37 PM
Right now, Vlad's at extended Spring Training. So if he can perform, and deserves a spot on the Jays, I think he's be a better option than Francisco/Lind.

bomber0104
05-10-2012, 07:39 PM
I'd rather have Francisco. A guy who can play in the field and is a solid hitter outweighs an aging former slugger who's limited to pinch hitting or the DH role.

Especially when at this point in the game, Vlad really isn't that much better than Francisco.

However with the way they're using Francisco, he's pretty much just a glorified pinch hitter and DH, so that probably makes Vlad the better option. But that's got more to do with the fact that they probably should platoon Rasmus/Thames and Lind, giving Arencibia more at bats vs lefties and potentially seeing if Mathis is the real deal or just benefiting from small sample size. And having Francisco and Davis in the OF would let them do that.

So I guess my answer is Vlad if they won't use Francisco in the OF, but Francisco if they will try to properly platoon some of the people on this team.

All your beliefs are obviously based on statistics and although numbers are a big part of the game, they aren't everything. There is something about having a guy like Guerrerro on your bench and in the lineup..

Twitchy
05-10-2012, 07:44 PM
All your beliefs are obviously based on statistics and although numbers are a big part of the game, they aren't everything. There is something about having a guy like Guerrerro on your bench and in the lineup..

That last line sounds like the same kind of thing we heard about Fransisco Cordero coming into the season. And Omar Vizquel. How did that work out?

I'd put a hell of a lot more faith in the numbers he's produced over the past few years then the name on the back of the jersey thank you very much.

Look, it's a minor signing and it's not that big a deal, I just don't see the need to do it.

fatkev78
05-10-2012, 07:44 PM
Vlad is one of my all time favourite players, but I don't see him adding much at this point.

bomber0104
05-10-2012, 07:47 PM
That last line sounds like the same kind of thing we heard about Fransisco Cordero coming into the season. And Omar Vizquel. How did that work out?

I'd put a hell of a lot more faith in the numbers he's produced over the past few years then the name on the back of the jersey thank you very much.

Look, it's a minor signing and it's not that big a deal, I just don't see the need to do it.

didn't think .300, 29 HRs, 115 RBIs were that bad..

looks like we're gonna have to agree to disagree one more time

flea
05-10-2012, 07:48 PM
Snider is destroying AAA. I don't understand why the Jays are thinking about giving ABs to a guy like Vlad who is pretty much done and yet can't find room for Snider in a corner/DH slot 5 days a week.

Twitchy
05-10-2012, 07:56 PM
didn't think .300, 29 HRs, 115 RBIs were that bad..

looks like we're gonna have to agree to disagree one more time

No, it wasn't bad. But that was two years ago while playing half his games in Texas. Of which he had a 748 OPS in the second half. And is now 37 years old.

He played in a hitters park in the AL East last year and managed a 733 OPS. I'd say something like that is more likely than the flukey 840 OPS he had in 2010.

ktownguy31
05-10-2012, 07:57 PM
Snider always does that in AAA who cares...its his lack of doing it with the big club that is keeping him down

Johann
05-10-2012, 08:02 PM
Guerrero's stats at Rogers Centre



g ab r h 2b 3b hr rbi bb k sb cs avg obp slg ops
58 223 36 80 16 1 12 36 19 28 6 3 .359 .411 .601 1.011

Gibby
05-10-2012, 08:05 PM
I swear they just did this move so that they didn't have to promote Snider.

There's not much left in the tank but Vlad is sadly better than Lind.

isnt snider on the dl?

flea
05-10-2012, 08:09 PM
Snider always does that in AAA who cares...its his lack of doing it with the big club that is keeping him down

So uh, how does keeping him in AAA prove otherwise? The Jays should let him loose and see if he can give them any value. Jays fans above all should know about giving guys extended looks given recent history.

2009mvp
05-10-2012, 08:09 PM
Meh. Better than Lind I suppose, but that damn sure ain't saying much. If this somehow blocks Snider though this goes from meh to a freakin disaster.

craigerlee
05-10-2012, 08:53 PM
Meh. Better than Lind I suppose, but that damn sure ain't saying much. If this somehow blocks Snider though this goes from meh to a freakin disaster.

Hopefully this means the end of Lind and not the blocking of Snider. However seeing how this organization doesn't seem to like Snider I feel it might be the latter.

bomber0104
05-10-2012, 09:21 PM
No, it wasn't bad. But that was two years ago while playing half his games in Texas. Of which he had a 748 OPS in the second half. And is now 37 years old.

He played in a hitters park in the AL East last year and managed a 733 OPS. I'd say something like that is more likely than the flukey 840 OPS he had in 2010.

he had a bad year prior to that so you could have said the same thing 2 years ago but i'm sure the Rangers didn't mind having him..

and he has always hit well at Rogers Center which isn't exactly a pitchers park

LuckyLuke2
05-10-2012, 09:30 PM
How does this block Snider? Snider was not going to be called up anytime soon he just recently a few days ago came off the 7 day DL because of a wrist problem, he's going to be down in AAA at least another few weeks I would say.

Thames has been decent enough to stay in LF, Lind is at 1B and Encarnacion is the Jays better offensive options right now.

Guerrero won't be on the Jays for another 2 weeks at least. He has to go through extended spring training, A, AA and then MLB or AAA. By then, Snider could be already up or he may not be.

adid727
05-10-2012, 11:02 PM
Nice. All i can say is bye Lind. Vlad would be better than lind. Vlad is a nice upgrade over lind.

JMac4PM
05-10-2012, 11:45 PM
If the Jays were gonna sit Lind for a DH why wouldnt they give Cooper or Gomes a shot first before signing Guererro?

the_jon
05-11-2012, 12:12 AM
^ already gave Cooper a shot, he sucked complete donkey ballz and is pretty much a non-prospect right now. Gomes isn't really an option either. Also there's no guarantee Guerrero will even make the major league or get regular at bats.

Krylian
05-11-2012, 12:13 AM
isnt snider on the dl?

He's been back for a couple of games now.

the_jon
05-11-2012, 12:14 AM
Even if he sucks I sure would like to go watch him play in a Jays uni. I wonder if we'll get any sort of an attendance spike upon his arrival if he makes it to the big club.

bomber0104
05-11-2012, 01:09 AM
^ already gave Cooper a shot, he sucked complete donkey ballz and is pretty much a non-prospect right now. Gomes isn't really an option either. Also there's no guarantee Guerrero will even make the major league or get regular at bats.

you figured that he sucked from 70 ABs?

he did hit 2 HRs and 7 doubles in those ABs... put him in the lineup and he will hit for a decent average with some OBP and a bunch of doubles.. definitely more than Lind can offer but his defense does suck

WhatSayYou
05-11-2012, 01:14 AM
I'd rather have Francisco. A guy who can play in the field and is a solid hitter outweighs an aging former slugger who's limited to pinch hitting or the DH role.

Especially when at this point in the game, Vlad really isn't that much better than Francisco.

However with the way they're using Francisco, he's pretty much just a glorified pinch hitter and DH, so that probably makes Vlad the better option. But that's got more to do with the fact that they probably should platoon Rasmus/Thames and Lind, giving Arencibia more at bats vs lefties and potentially seeing if Mathis is the real deal or just benefiting from small sample size. And having Francisco and Davis in the OF would let them do that.

So I guess my answer is Vlad if they won't use Francisco in the OF, but Francisco if they will try to properly platoon some of the people on this team.

I'd agree with this if we didn't have Davis, but seeing as Davis is the go to guy when we need a outfield defender/pinch runner as well as when facing lefties Fransisco really isn't needed.

Johann
05-11-2012, 01:50 AM
I'd agree with this if we didn't have Davis, but seeing as Davis is the go to guy when we need a outfield defender/pinch runner as well as when facing lefties Fransisco really isn't needed.

I agree with this.

And if one of our outfielders get injured, namely Thames :p, we can insert Davis into the order, and call up a certain Travis Snider.

Francisco really isn't needed much and has only played in 9 games.

His position on the Jays was as a bench player. Vlad, if he makes it to the Jays, would be platooning with Lind, playing half the time. So if anything, he'd be taking ABs from Lind (and really who cares? :))

He's also looked highly upon already by a bunch of the Jays. JP recently said that it would be an honour if he got to play with Vlad. I could also see Bautista look up to Vladdy, the most hit-getter that the Dominican has produced. Again, only if he makes the team. He'll be a leader, giving advice to the younger guys, and Bautista.

Halladay
05-11-2012, 05:14 AM
Even if he sucks I sure would like to go watch him play in a Jays uni. I wonder if we'll get any sort of an attendance spike upon his arrival if he makes it to the big club.

There's no need to wonder, because it won't happen. If the fans don't come out to see Roger Clemens,Roy Halladay or Jose Bautista, why would they come out to see an aging player like Vladdy who's obviously on his last legs and can't even get a major league deal?

mtf
05-11-2012, 05:53 AM
There's no need to wonder, because it won't happen. If the fans don't come out to see Roger Clemens,Roy Halladay or Jose Bautista, why would they come out to see an aging player like Vladdy who's obviously on his last legs and can't even get a major league deal?

Yeah, and I really wish people would stop saying this, with the implication that Toronto fans are unreasonable for not shelling out $100-$200 per day at the ballpark to see a single player.

This team has always had one or two great players, but baseball takes far more than that. This team has a history of squandering those assets on a mediocre competitive environment instead of using them as a base to create a true contender, and it really feels like that's whats going on right now. If this team had even one of Yu Darvish or Prince Fielder right now, does anyone think there's a legitimate chance that the Blue Jays could be leading the division currently? How about signing Papelbon instead of trading away a top prospect for a mediocre closer with a limited history?

Halladay
05-11-2012, 06:37 AM
Yeah, and I really wish people would stop saying this, with the implication that Toronto fans are unreasonable for not shelling out $100-$200 per day at the ballpark to see a single player.

This team has always had one or two great players, but baseball takes far more than that. This team has a history of squandering those assets on a mediocre competitive environment instead of using them as a base to create a true contender, and it really feels like that's whats going on right now. If this team had even one of Yu Darvish or Prince Fielder right now, does anyone think there's a legitimate chance that the Blue Jays could be leading the division currently? How about signing Papelbon instead of trading away a top prospect for a mediocre closer with a limited history?

The rotation has been outstanding and the Jays made a pitch for Darvish, can't really fault them there. Fielder's contract is insane, no single player is worth that much. This is one of the best teams that's been assembled since the world series wins, it's hard to complain IMO. There's no doubt though, wins bring fans in, no single player.

mtf
05-11-2012, 07:24 AM
The rotation has been outstanding and the Jays made a pitch for Darvish, can't really fault them there.

Well first of all, Anthopoulos has never fully acknowledged that the team were majors players in the Yu Darvish bidding process. He intimated that the Blue Jays put in a bid in the $25-30M range, which is a complete non-offer given the amount Daisuke Matsuzaka went for. The bidding process, while unappealing I'm sure, is a one time expense to buy the rights to a player.

As for the rotation being outstanding, they've been pretty good and definitely the most fun part of this team to watch and look forward to each night for me personally, but that's just the first 4. Drabek was not expected to make this team, remember? Signing Yu Darvish would have just added incredible depth. Other than Hutchison, who doesn't really seem ready (and that's not upsetting, he's still incredibly young) there isn't any other great pitching prospects in the system who will be coming along anytime soon.


Fielder's contract is insane, no single player is worth that much.

As for Prince Fielder, you may personally hold the opinion that no one player is worth that much, but it isn't a fact and shouldn't be presented as such. It was obvious that he was going to get at least $200M & 8 years from someone. He is only a few months older than Ricky Romero, he definitely fits in with the timetable of this team. Players of this caliber won't be making it to free agency very often in the next 5 years, and he was such a good fit for this team.


This is one of the best teams that's been assembled since the world series wins, it's hard to complain IMO. There's no doubt though, wins bring fans in, no single player.

It's a good core, but this was precisely the point I was making. The Blue Jays have a history of building a core of solid assets, but not taking the necessary steps to fill out the rest of the roster with enough talent to turn the team into a true contender.

alistar
05-11-2012, 07:46 AM
The rotation has been outstanding and the Jays made a pitch for Darvish, can't really fault them there. Fielder's contract is insane, no single player is worth that much. This is one of the best teams that's been assembled since the world series wins, it's hard to complain IMO. There's no doubt though, wins bring fans in, no single player.

Josh Hamilton might have something to say about that. And the pitch for Darvish the Jays supposedly made is all speculation.

KaiserSose
05-11-2012, 08:05 AM
This is pure awesomeness. Vlad is a legend to all of us former expos fans!

Oh and he is not blocking Snider unless you thought E5 and Lind were blocking Snider. Snider is blocking Snider. He lost his job to Thames because of his own lack of production and inability to lay off breaking stuff outside the zone.

KaiserSose
05-11-2012, 08:09 AM
Oh and this team is not "rebuilding" Wamco. They are clearly looking to make a run at the playoffs which is a good idea considering a few factors:

1. An extra play-off team
2. A couple teams they thought would contend for a ply-off spot are struggling (Boston and LAA)

Now we can debate how much Vladdy adds to the teams chances but it's hard to argue he cant be more valuable than Lind who was bad last year and terrible this year.

KaiserSose
05-11-2012, 08:13 AM
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/blue-jays-add-vlad/

Halladay
05-11-2012, 08:32 AM
Well first of all, Anthopoulos has never fully acknowledged that the team were majors players in the Yu Darvish bidding process. He intimated that the Blue Jays put in a bid in the $25-30M range, which is a complete non-offer given the amount Daisuke Matsuzaka went for. The bidding process, while unappealing I'm sure, is a one time expense to buy the rights to a player.

As for the rotation being outstanding, they've been pretty good and definitely the most fun part of this team to watch and look forward to each night for me personally, but that's just the first 4. Drabek was not expected to make this team, remember? Signing Yu Darvish would have just added incredible depth. Other than Hutchison, who doesn't really seem ready (and that's not upsetting, he's still incredibly young) there isn't any other great pitching prospects in the system who will be coming along anytime soon.



As for Prince Fielder, you may personally hold the opinion that no one player is worth that much, but it isn't a fact and shouldn't be presented as such. It was obvious that he was going to get at least $200M & 8 years from someone. He is only a few months older than Ricky Romero, he definitely fits in with the timetable of this team. Players of this caliber won't be making it to free agency very often in the next 5 years, and he was such a good fit for this team.



It's a good core, but this was precisely the point I was making. The Blue Jays have a history of building a core of solid assets, but not taking the necessary steps to fill out the rest of the roster with enough talent to turn the team into a true contender.
AA has never come out and said it himself but more then enough media sources speculated his offer was second to Texas and only a few million short of their offer. I'm not sure AA is legally allowed to say what the offer was. Although Drabek wasn't a shoe-in, there was a good chance he could be our fifth start out of ST. Not really a shock when McGowan went down that he made the rotation.

Drabek has been good, lets see how long he can keep it up for. Hutch is a great prospect but needs more time which has become pretty clear but lets not get it twisted, there are a plethora of arms in our system, many of which aren't that far away. Guys like Syndergaard,Sanchez,Nicolino,Norris,McGuire etc will be here sooner then some may think. Finding a fifth starter is also pretty damn easy but there's no question, the system is full of high-end pitching prospects.

Don't get me wrong on Fielder, I wanted him here as badly as anyone but I also said it at the time, and I say it now, no player is worth that kind of cash, especially a player who in the near future won't even be able to play an actual position. For every positive with Fielder, there's a negative IMO. You can handcuff yourself pretty quickly financially with those types of contracts, even with the richest owner in baseball. Tampa Bay seems to be the model and IIRC their highest paid player is Longoria who's making around $9 mil/per I think.


Josh Hamilton might have something to say about that. And the pitch for Darvish the Jays supposedly made is all speculation.

Josh Hamilton is an elite player much like Fielder, I'm not debating that. The Jays supposed bid was just short of the Rangers bid going by trusted sources. Speculation or not, I'll take their word for it. Not that it matters coming second in a bidding war anyways.

Krylian
05-11-2012, 08:32 AM
Even if he sucks I sure would like to go watch him play in a Jays uni. I wonder if we'll get any sort of an attendance spike upon his arrival if he makes it to the big club.

I predict attendance goes down.

GOON MUSIC
05-11-2012, 08:40 AM
His pedestrian numbers last year would've made him Mets MVP

Bob_at_york
05-11-2012, 10:09 AM
I have always enjoyed watching Vlad play. I wish him luck in getting back up to the big leagues. I can't wait for Ben Francisco to get kicked off this team.

mtf
05-11-2012, 10:18 AM
I have always enjoyed watching Vlad play. I wish him luck in getting back up to the big leagues. I can't wait for Ben Francisco to get kicked off this team.

Any particular reason? I'm by no means a Ben Francisco fan, but there are others on this roster I'd sooner see pack their bags and hop on the first flight out of town.

bartron_44
05-11-2012, 10:19 AM
He has played in 140+ games 7 out of the last 8 years, and actually hit over .300 3 separate months last year, and posted an OPS of .894 in July and again in Sept. If he can hit like that in the second half, he will be a very nice addition down the stretch.

Bob_at_york
05-11-2012, 10:45 AM
Any particular reason? I'm by no means a Ben Francisco fan, but there are others on this roster I'd sooner see pack their bags and hop on the first flight out of town.

Francisco doesn't seem to have a role on this team, his only role is to be the DH against lefties. Vlad will probably take over that role if he makes it to the bigs. He also wasn't signed to a big contract so it is easy to cut him. I am curious, who would you cut before him?

mtf
05-11-2012, 10:54 AM
Francisco doesn't seem to have a role on this team, his only role is to be the DH against lefties. Vlad will probably take over that role if he makes it to the bigs. He also wasn't signed to a big contract so it is easy to cut him. I am curious, who would you cut before him?

Outright release? He'd probably be the first. Although I'd sooner be excited about Cordero or Lind leaving town by another means. I do agree with you that Francisco doesn't seem to have a role here, since he's essentially the backup pinch hitter or fielder in scenario's where they'd use Rajai Davis anyways, but since he (and Vizquel) aren't getting played, I'm in no rush to pack their bags for them.

Bob_at_york
05-11-2012, 11:05 AM
Outright release? He'd probably be the first. Although I'd sooner be excited about Cordero or Lind leaving town by another means. I do agree with you that Francisco doesn't seem to have a role here, since he's essentially the backup pinch hitter or fielder in scenario's where they'd use Rajai Davis anyways, but since he (and Vizquel) aren't getting played, I'm in no rush to pack their bags for them.

You aren't going to get rid of Cordero and bring up Vlad. Not enough pitchers. Course a lot of us would love to have Lind gone but his contract is bigger and tougher to get rid of without costing the team. Also we don't have a lot of 1st basemen and we have a lot of depth in the outfield. Francisco is the odd man out.

mtf
05-11-2012, 11:08 AM
You aren't going to get rid of Cordero and bring up Vlad. Not enough pitchers. Course a lot of us would love to have Lind gone but his contract is bigger and tougher to get rid of without costing the team. Also we don't have a lot of 1st basemen and we have a lot of depth in the outfield. Francisco is the odd man out.

I think I may have expressed myself badly. I was simply wondering why you were so anxious to get Francisco out of here in a general sense, not so much as it related to Guerrero, and I responded with players I generally wanted to see gone with much more enthusiasm than Francisco.

LuckyLuke2
05-11-2012, 11:51 AM
Francisco is just depth nothing more. He's like a Mike Mccoy... hes just there if an injury comes up or someone needs a rest he isn't a long term guy.

Davis won't go anywhere and Vizquel will be here for the year I assume. So that leaves Francisco or a pitcher to be gone.

While a lot of people say to stop bashing Lind his time in Toronto may very well be coming to an end. He's been their most inconsistent player and he looks pretty bad right now. If AA can deal him I say do it. Encarnacion can hold 1B for the time being.

Bob_at_york
05-11-2012, 12:02 PM
I think I may have expressed myself badly. I was simply wondering why you were so anxious to get Francisco out of here in a general sense, not so much as it related to Guerrero, and I responded with players I generally wanted to see gone with much more enthusiasm than Francisco.

I was relating to Guerrero.

craigerlee
05-11-2012, 02:41 PM
You aren't going to get rid of Cordero and bring up Vlad. Not enough pitchers. Course a lot of us would love to have Lind gone but his contract is bigger and tougher to get rid of without costing the team. Also we don't have a lot of 1st basemen and we have a lot of depth in the outfield. Francisco is the odd man out.

The guy is owed 10M over this year and next, we've eaten 9M of BJ Ryan in the past and 5M of Mark Teahan. Who knows maybe the Brewers will take him off our hands if we gave them 5M. Don't think his contract is the issue, its just there isn't a lot of 1B options and I think this team is a little scared to give Edwin the job in case they **** with his head. I don't really think that Edwin will struggle if he takes over first, but I have a feeling management does.

wamco
05-11-2012, 02:49 PM
signing vlad would be "lind bashing" by AA, no?

mtf
05-11-2012, 03:07 PM
signing vlad would be "lind bashing" by AA, no?

Nah, Vladamir Guerrero is just Anthopoulos' favorite player. Favorites matter!! :punish:

wamco
05-11-2012, 03:27 PM
[QUOTE=KaiserSose;22146344]Oh and this team is not "rebuilding" Wamco. They are clearly looking to make a run at the playoffs


Should have acted like that BEFORE the season.

StayOnBoard
05-11-2012, 03:30 PM
Should have acted like that BEFORE the season.

Heh.. I DID act like this before the season but quickly got ran out of town because it was unfathomable that the Jays could compete in the AL East. It's better than arguing about it everyday, honestly....

wamco
05-11-2012, 03:34 PM
fielders contract is right in line with tex and gonzo, how is that "insane"? It's the market. Beeston had mentioned they didn't make a realistic run at fielder or Darvish. The jays losing 30 plus Million in welfare under the new cba scares the crap out of me. I think we'll need the prime prospects that would go for hamels even more now.

AA says june is earliest call up for mr guerrero

KaiserSose
05-11-2012, 03:39 PM
[QUOTE=KaiserSose;22146344]Oh and this team is not "rebuilding" Wamco. They are clearly looking to make a run at the playoffs


Should have acted like that BEFORE the season.

With respect to Yu or Prince? No one knows how much AA bid for Yu so the point is moot. For all you know they made a huge offer.

Prince has a terrible body type. You really fault him for not giving Prince $215M over 9 years? lol. My God wamco, you really are in a spicy little mood today!

mtf
05-11-2012, 03:50 PM
Prince has a terrible body type. You really fault him for not giving Prince $215M over 9 years? lol. My God wamco, you really are in a spicy little mood today!

With all due respect, can we please stop using the "he's a big fatso" excuse that Anthopoulos and Beeston fed us. A 9-year deal will keep Prince Fielder a Detroit Tiger until he's 37. Look at David Ortiz and see if he resembles Prince Fielder's body type at all and let's talk about his production.

Fat guys can still manage to swing a bat around. No one is going to ask them to steal second base.

StayOnBoard
05-11-2012, 03:58 PM
With all due respect, can we please stop using the "he's a big fatso" excuse that Anthopoulos and Beeston fed us. A 9-year deal will keep Prince Fielder a Detroit Tiger until he's 37. Look at David Ortiz and see if he resembles Prince Fielder's body type at all and let's talk about his production.

Fat guys can still manage to swing a bat around. No one is going to ask them to steal second base.

I completely agree with you... it's not the term, or his body type that bothers me, but his 200 million contract sure as hell does.

I don't think ANY player is worth that and I know Im in the minority but look at Pujols right now. Guy can't hit a beach ball.... Yes, it's only 1 month out of 10 years but that's been easily his worst month of his entire career.

I think Fielder will be very productive but I just don't like deals like that. One injury and your payroll is shot, and I don't think the production warrants it. Just my opinion, I do see why people wanted him, especially when we have Adam ****ing Lind hitting behind our best hitter.

wamco
05-11-2012, 04:13 PM
[QUOTE=wamco;22149400]

With respect to Yu or Prince? No one knows how much AA bid for Yu so the point is moot. For all you know they made a huge offer.

Prince has a terrible body type. You really fault him for not giving Prince $215M over 9 years? lol. My God wamco, you really are in a spicy little mood today!

iT'S right in line with gonzo and tex contract, so I don't see the hub ub about it. Beeston said they didnt go big after yu and fielder. It's not my opinion. Remember the piece explaining how he felt the offseason could have been done a bit better with respect to transperancy and how AA wants to have absolutely none etc?

boilerguy2412
05-11-2012, 08:02 PM
is there any chance this guy can play first

Jays Claw
05-11-2012, 09:43 PM
is there any chance this guy can play first

It's unlikely he plays 1B. I think it's best to move EE to first and have Vladdy strictly be the DH.

koreancabbage
05-11-2012, 10:10 PM
It's unlikely he plays 1B. I think it's best to move EE to first and have Vladdy strictly be the DH.

agreed

Johnson
Escobar
Bautista
Encarncion
Vlad
Lawrie
Thames
Rasmus
Arencibia

maybe?

Raps08-09 Champ
05-12-2012, 01:22 PM
I know his main position before was RF but what about LF? Would he be worse than Eric Thames?

If Lind is leaving and EE goes to 1st, I would prefer the better fielder to be playing LF.

fmradioguy
05-12-2012, 03:31 PM
You know, since the Jays are suddenly making a habit of signing future Hall of Famers who are way past their prime- and now, former Expos who are future Hall of Famers way past their prime- Pedro Martinez still says he only needs 20 days to get ready...

Twitchy
05-12-2012, 04:35 PM
I know his main position before was RF but what about LF? Would he be worse than Eric Thames?

If Lind is leaving and EE goes to 1st, I would prefer the better fielder to be playing LF.

Did you watch the WS in Texas 2 years ago? He could barely handle balls that were hit right in front of him. Vlad is so bad he makes Thames look like a gold glover out there. And Thames has to dive at any ball not hit right at him.

mtf
05-12-2012, 05:24 PM
You know, since the Jays are suddenly making a habit of signing future Hall of Famers who are way past their prime- and now, former Expos who are future Hall of Famers way past their prime- Pedro Martinez still says he only needs 20 days to get ready...

Anthopoulos loves expos.

Raps08-09 Champ
05-12-2012, 06:46 PM
Did you watch the WS in Texas 2 years ago? He could barely handle balls that were hit right in front of him. Vlad is so bad he makes Thames look like a gold glover out there. And Thames has to dive at any ball not hit right at him.

He's that bad now? Yikes.

I know he was a very capable player before his injuries but wasn't aware he was that bad now.

StayOnBoard
05-12-2012, 10:35 PM
He's that bad now? Yikes.

I know he was a very capable player before his injuries but wasn't aware he was that bad now.

Twitchy is right, the guy is absolutely atrocious in the field.... he is strictly a DH/PH at this stage of his career.

WhatSayYou
05-13-2012, 03:53 AM
Did you watch the WS in Texas 2 years ago? He could barely handle balls that were hit right in front of him. Vlad is so bad he makes Thames look like a gold glover out there. And Thames has to dive at any ball not hit right at him.

lol @ him during WS, that was pathetic

StealingSigns
05-14-2012, 12:00 AM
He's that bad now? Yikes.

I know he was a very capable player before his injuries but wasn't aware he was that bad now.

Sadly, yes.

It will be his bat coming off the bench if he is to provide any real value. And that's only if his bat comes around.

nithanyo
05-14-2012, 01:39 AM
The guy hit .290 last year for the Orioles and thats the lowest he ever hit in his career. Im not too worried about his bat. He would be amazing off the bench or as a DH. he can hit a pitch in the dirt.

You give him some lotion for his ashy knuckles and he is good to go

Raps08-09 Champ
05-14-2012, 01:57 AM
In the AL, he still hit top 20 in hits last year. So he should still be very serviceable as a DH.

jaysfan4ever
05-14-2012, 04:33 AM
I like this move, but not because of his bat. Honestly, Vlad as a bat of the bench has the upside of Jim Thome's 2011, a great PH-DH, and the downside of a minor-leaguer, Ben Francisco with no glove. Probably a very mediocre player.

I consider Vladimir Guerrero to be the hitting equivalent of Omar Vizquel. One of the best sluggers EVER is coming to a young Jays squad to provide extra leadership. It also takes some of the leadership burden off of a struggling Jose Bautista, and a relatively inexperienced Encarnacion. Plus, it sells some tickets, and Vlad has always been a great clubhouse guy from what I can remember.

Halladay
05-14-2012, 06:57 AM
I know his main position before was RF but what about LF? Would he be worse than Eric Thames?

If Lind is leaving and EE goes to 1st, I would prefer the better fielder to be playing LF.
Vlads days of playing in the outfield are over. If you don't remember or didn't see him with Texas a few years ago in the playoffs you should watch the clips. It was painful to watch such a formerly talented player to look so horrendous in the outfield. Even if we were out of bench players and one of our outfielders got injured, I would honestly get someone off our pitching staff to play in the field. He's that bad now lol.


The guy hit .290 last year for the Orioles and thats the lowest he ever hit in his career. Im not too worried about his bat. He would be amazing off the bench or as a DH. he can hit a pitch in the dirt.

You give him some lotion for his ashy knuckles and he is good to go
I'm pretty worried about his bat. There's a reason why he wasn't signed until now and is only on a minor league deal. He had lows in the following categories- Batting average, OBP, SLG,HR etc. I want him to go back to even a shadow of his old self with the bat but it's a stretch. He may have hit .290 but that .317 OBP is pretty damn ugly...almost Adam Lind ugly.

KaiserSose
05-14-2012, 09:41 AM
With all due respect, can we please stop using the "he's a big fatso" excuse that Anthopoulos and Beeston fed us. A 9-year deal will keep Prince Fielder a Detroit Tiger until he's 37. Look at David Ortiz and see if he resembles Prince Fielder's body type at all and let's talk about his production.

Fat guys can still manage to swing a bat around. No one is going to ask them to steal second base.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/how-will-prince-fielder-age/

David Ortiz is the exception, not the rule!



[QUOTE=KaiserSose;22149493]

iT'S right in line with gonzo and tex contract, so I don't see the hub ub about it. Beeston said they didnt go big after yu and fielder. It's not my opinion. Remember the piece explaining how he felt the offseason could have been done a bit better with respect to transperancy and how AA wants to have absolutely none etc?

and carries way more risk due to his body type. Dave Cameron's preliminary work into aging curves for heavy versus average weight players played into my decision to support AA's decision to pass on Prince. Maybe I would think differently if Prince was 22 or 23 but not at his current age when the back half of his contract will be an albatross. Do people forget the Wells contract already? Look what Soriano's contract is doing to the Cubs. Bad contracts kill teams. Blue Jays are not immune.

craigerlee
05-14-2012, 10:09 AM
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/how-will-prince-fielder-age/

David Ortiz is the exception, not the rule!



Agree. Not to mention David Ortiz is 5 inches taller and about 40lbs lighter than Prince. Don't really see how their body types are similar.

Twitchy
05-14-2012, 11:15 AM
I would have argued that this article (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/how-have-previous-joey-vottos-aged/) did a better job of showing what we could expect from Fielder. Yes, he's a heavy guy, but his WAR is lowered by 5-10 runs per season based on his UZR scores. Exactly who cares about defence from 1B? I put the guy there because I want a slugger there. You want a good glove there, get Lyle Overbay.

I'm more concerned with how his bat ages over the next 7 years, not his defence or base running. And looking at the 1B group we know that many of them were effective throughout their careers.

jaysfan4ever
05-14-2012, 11:17 AM
Vlads days of playing in the outfield are over. If you don't remember or didn't see him with Texas a few years ago in the playoffs you should watch the clips. It was painful to watch such a formerly talented player to look so horrendous in the outfield. Even if we were out of bench players and one of our outfielders got injured, I would honestly get someone off our pitching staff to play in the field. He's that bad now lol.


I'm pretty worried about his bat. There's a reason why he wasn't signed until now and is only on a minor league deal. He had lows in the following categories- Batting average, OBP, SLG,HR etc. I want him to go back to even a shadow of his old self with the bat but it's a stretch. He may have hit .290 but that .317 OBP is pretty damn ugly...almost Adam Lind ugly.

Yeah, I'm worried too. Have any of you guys seen his walk rate om 2012? 17 walks in 562 ABs.
Heck Alfonso Soriano walks more LOL Out of 145 players that qualified for the batting title last year, only 1 player walked less: Yuniesky Betancourt. Vlad can't be hitting 1 thru 5 if he can't take a walk.

StayOnBoard
05-14-2012, 12:17 PM
I would have argued that this article (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/how-have-previous-joey-vottos-aged/) did a better job of showing what we could expect from Fielder. Yes, he's a heavy guy, but his WAR is lowered by 5-10 runs per season based on his UZR scores. Exactly who cares about defence from 1B? I put the guy there because I want a slugger there. You want a good glove there, get Lyle Overbay.

I'm more concerned with how his bat ages over the next 7 years, not his defence or base running. And looking at the 1B group we know that many of them were effective throughout their careers.

While I certainly agree with what you're saying -- I also agree with the point KaiserSose is trying to make.

That contract will be brutal during the second half and it too AMAZES me how many people forget about Vernon Wells. I can only imagine the outrage if we had Pujols right now with his contract. Of course, there's a 99% chance he'll snap out of it and be the great player we all know he is.... or..... he could go all Adam Dunn and have an "ok" Angel's career. No one really knows for sure but it's the main reason why if I were a GM I would never give out a contract in access of 200+ million, even if I were managing the Yankees.

Still, as you said - I couldn't give a rat's *** about his UZR, defensive metrics or his base-running, but I most certainly care about his bat.

KaiserSose
05-14-2012, 12:28 PM
I would have argued that this article (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/how-have-previous-joey-vottos-aged/) did a better job of showing what we could expect from Fielder. Yes, he's a heavy guy, but his WAR is lowered by 5-10 runs per season based on his UZR scores. Exactly who cares about defence from 1B? I put the guy there because I want a slugger there. You want a good glove there, get Lyle Overbay.

I'm more concerned with how his bat ages over the next 7 years, not his defence or base running. And looking at the 1B group we know that many of them were effective throughout their careers.

Yeah, great point Twitchy. Instead of comparing Fielder to guys that fit his profile, lets randomly compare him to guys who are in better shape physically. Oh and lets not count defense and base-running because we all know that is meaningless.

:facepalm:

purplehaze89
05-14-2012, 05:50 PM
Yeah, great point Twitchy. Instead of comparing Fielder to guys that fit his profile, lets randomly compare him to guys who are in better shape physically. Oh and lets not count defense and base-running because we all know that is meaningless.

:facepalm:

:clap: That whole post by twitchy made me snicker. Ignoring facts to prove a point?

Twitchy
05-14-2012, 05:59 PM
Yeah, great point Twitchy. Instead of comparing Fielder to guys that fit his profile, lets randomly compare him to guys who are in better shape physically. Oh and lets not count defense and base-running because we all know that is meaningless.

:facepalm:

UZR at first base is meaningless. Why is this a surprise to you? We've known that UZR isn't very accurate at 1B and C for a while now. I've also started to move away from using UZR in general, not just in this specific example.

I also don't believe that base running has as big an affect as FG would lead us to believe. If you want to believe that base running has that big an effect, be my guest. In general I've been moving away from WAR whenever possible.

I'd rather compare Prince Fielder to other 1B than other players who are physically similar. To each his own.

bomber0104
05-15-2012, 12:25 AM
we really need to get Vlad up here as soon as possible

2009mvp
05-15-2012, 12:29 AM
Yeah, he'll certainly help do something about these 3+ hour games. Not much else, but there's that.

killersweet
05-15-2012, 11:29 AM
Right now, anyone over Lind! Why was he moved back to hit clean up again?

the_lazy_man
05-15-2012, 12:15 PM
Only a matter of time until Lind and Francisco become exiled to be replaced by Snider and Vlad.

KaiserSose
05-15-2012, 12:25 PM
UZR at first base is meaningless. Why is this a surprise to you? We've known that UZR isn't very accurate at 1B and C for a while now. I've also started to move away from using UZR in general, not just in this specific example.

I also don't believe that base running has as big an affect as FG would lead us to believe. If you want to believe that base running has that big an effect, be my guest. In general I've been moving away from WAR whenever possible.

I'd rather compare Prince Fielder to other 1B than other players who are physically similar. To each his own.

Instead of arguing with you let's make this very simple. Even if Fielder was average at defense (which you don't need UZR to tell you he isn't) or base-running, I still wouldn't want him at 9/214 or whatever he got. That contract is terrible and even Detroit fans couldn't argue it wasn't apart from saying the old man (owner) wants a championship before he dies.

And I say I don't want Fielder as someone who despises Adam Lind's very being.

Krylian
05-15-2012, 12:49 PM
we really need to get Vlad up here as soon as possible

People allow themselves to be seduced by past success and reputation. Vlad of today is not Vlad of 5-10 years ago.....not even a shadow.

bartron_44
05-15-2012, 01:18 PM
We have our own Prince Fielder in the making, his name is Mike McDade. Except McDade isn't built like a bag of milk, he is built like a brick shyte house, a switch hitter, and an above average defensive first basemen:)

Fielder: 5'11" / 275lb's
McDade: 6'1 / 250 lb's


He is straight beasting in AA right now, putting up the numbers I thought he would in AAA this year if they let him play in the PCL.....He was a very raw when he was drafted out of high school in 2007 in the 6th round, but he is starting to look like a pretty good looking prospect imo. and should break into the big leagues at the age of 24/25.

LuckyLuke2
05-15-2012, 01:29 PM
Lol Vlad won't be a savior. If he was the player he was before, then yeah. He isn't. He will help but not by much.

Lind, however, looked horrible last night. Just horrible. Why he's back in the 4 spot I don't know, I would rather literally anyone else but him batting there.

Toxeryll
05-15-2012, 01:33 PM
We have our own Prince Fielder in the making, his name is Mike McDade. Except McDade isn't built like a bag of milk, he is built like a brick shyte house, a switch hitter, and an above average defensive first basemen:)

Fielder: 5'11" / 275lb's
McDade: 6'1 / 250 lb's


He is straight beasting in AA right now, putting up the numbers I thought he would in AAA this year if they let him play in the PCL.....He was a very raw when he was drafted out of high school in 2007 in the 6th round, but he is starting to look like a pretty good looking prospect imo. and should break into the big leagues at the age of 24/25.

just because he is kinda chubby and black means that hes the next prince fielder lol. he has no power but i like the improvement in his K:BB ratio

Bigred91
05-15-2012, 01:37 PM
Lol Vlad won't be a savior. If he was the player he was before, then yeah. He isn't. He will help but not by much.

Lind, however, looked horrible last night. Just horrible. Why he's back in the 4 spot I don't know, I would rather literally anyone else but him batting there.

Lind is killing me. Can we please just get rid of him. Not hitting is bad enough but now he is not going to field his position. **** him.

LuckyLuke2
05-15-2012, 02:25 PM
Lind is killing me. Can we please just get rid of him. Not hitting is bad enough but now he is not going to field his position. **** him.

Haha yeah seriously. Made two errors last night too. Dropped an easy foul catch.

His swing looks horrid. Bad avg. mediocre first basemen. Where's Lyle Overbay when you need him.

treeleaf
05-15-2012, 02:44 PM
Haha yeah seriously. Made two errors last night too. Dropped an easy foul catch.

His swing looks horrid. Bad avg. mediocre first basemen. Where's Lyle Overbay when you need him.

Two words.

David


Cooper

Toxeryll
05-15-2012, 03:07 PM
Two words.

David


Cooper

agreed. even though im not big on cooper, we need a boost offensively.

interesting stats since last year for cooper (minors only):

vs. L .380/.436/.563/.999 and 9.5 K%/9.5 BB%
vs. R .339/.420/.509/.929 and 8.0 K%/12.5 BB%

he doesnt seem to mind left handed pitching. DFA Lind!!!

bartron_44
05-15-2012, 03:12 PM
People allow themselves to be seduced by past success and reputation. Vlad of today is not Vlad of 5-10 years ago.....not even a shadow.

Vlad just 2 years ago hit 27 doubles and 29 HR's with an OPS of .841.

He is an absolute hitting machine who has hit .290+ for 15 straight seasons, and driven in over 108 RBI's 10 times!

He loves hitting in Boston,NY,Bal and Toronto, and he knows the AL East after playing in Baltimore last year He also hit .361 with an OPS of .880 in 9 games @ Rogers Center last year, and .500 with an OPS over 1.200 in 7 games at Rogers Center in 2010, so he seems to still like hitting in Toronto :)

wamco
05-15-2012, 04:45 PM
[QUOTE=KaiserSose;22190066]Instead of arguing with you let's make this very simple. Even if Fielder was average at defense (which you don't need UZR to tell you he isn't) or base-running, I still wouldn't want him at 9/214 or whatever he got. That contract is terrible and even Detroit fans couldn't argue it wasn't apart from saying the old man (owner) wants a championship before he dies.


are the gonzo and tex contracts terrible as well?

bartron_44
05-15-2012, 05:46 PM
[QUOTE=KaiserSose;22190066]Instead of arguing with you let's make this very simple. Even if Fielder was average at defense (which you don't need UZR to tell you he isn't) or base-running, I still wouldn't want him at 9/214 or whatever he got. That contract is terrible and even Detroit fans couldn't argue it wasn't apart from saying the old man (owner) wants a championship before he dies.


are the gonzo and tex contracts terrible as well?

As a rule of thumb, I would say paying any player 20+ million for 7+ years is a terrible contract.

Adrian Gonzalez may have been one of the bigger steals of the season last year since he only had a salary of 6.3M in 2011. However, he will make 21M per season for the next 7 years....He is a gold glove defender ,plays around 160 games a year, and has had an OPS over .900 each of the past 3 seasons, including 2 with an OPS over .950. It will be interesting to see how much longer he can produce like that. If your going to pay a hitter that much money, he seems to be a pretty safe bet....but you never know when someone is going to start slowing down.....which brings me to Texeira.

Texeira hasn't played to the value of his contract the past 2 seasons imo. He seems to have started to decline at the age of 30... He came as advertised in 2009, but he has had an OPS under .850 each of the past 2 years after putting up an OPS over .948 3 straight years from 2007-2009. He is still a good player (especially in that ballpark), but I don't know if anyone would offer him 20+ per season for 8 years if they only saw his numbers in 2010 and beyond..

That being said...each team puts different values on players. I think we really, really need better hitters to compete in the AL East. Therefore I would think that we have a higher demand then most for a player who can hit for an OPS over .900 in the middle of our order...consistently. The one place we are consistently behind the Yankees and Red Sox is runs scored. We need the heart of our order to produce night in and night out in order to compete over 162 games with those guys. Vladdy may help when he gets here but we still need an upgrade in LF and 1B desperately...and an upgrade in CF offensively wouldn't hurt either.

Therefore even though it would be a "bad contract", I would still love to see us go out and buy a player like Josh Hamilton this offseason, no matter what the cost. AA has shown he can move awful contracts, so we can worry about the end of a long term deal when the time comes.

wamco
05-16-2012, 08:17 AM
I'd put hamilton at 1b the first day he got here

alistar
05-16-2012, 09:10 AM
As a rule of thumb, I would say paying any player 20+ million for 7+ years is a terrible contract.

Adrian Gonzalez may have been one of the bigger steals of the season last year since he only had a salary of 6.3M in 2011. However, he will make 21M per season for the next 7 years....He is a gold glove defender ,plays around 160 games a year, and has had an OPS over .900 each of the past 3 seasons, including 2 with an OPS over .950. It will be interesting to see how much longer he can produce like that. If your going to pay a hitter that much money, he seems to be a pretty safe bet....but you never know when someone is going to start slowing down.....which brings me to Texeira.

Texeira hasn't played to the value of his contract the past 2 seasons imo. He seems to have started to decline at the age of 30... He came as advertised in 2009, but he has had an OPS under .850 each of the past 2 years after putting up an OPS over .948 3 straight years from 2007-2009. He is still a good player (especially in that ballpark), but I don't know if anyone would offer him 20+ per season for 8 years if they only saw his numbers in 2010 and beyond..

That being said...each team puts different values on players. I think we really, really need better hitters to compete in the AL East. Therefore I would think that we have a higher demand then most for a player who can hit for an OPS over .900 in the middle of our order...consistently. The one place we are consistently behind the Yankees and Red Sox is runs scored. We need the heart of our order to produce night in and night out in order to compete over 162 games with those guys. Vladdy may help when he gets here but we still need an upgrade in LF and 1B desperately...and an upgrade in CF offensively wouldn't hurt either.

Therefore even though it would be a "bad contract", I would still love to see us go out and buy a player like Josh Hamilton this offseason, no matter what the cost. AA has shown he can move awful contracts, so we can worry about the end of a long term deal when the time comes.

He's also shown absolutely no indication he's planning to spend $200+ million on a single player either

LuckyLuke2
05-16-2012, 09:12 AM
Two words.

David


Cooper

Honeslty it could happen. Cooper though is difficult to read just because he's always been successful at AAA, he hits for a great avg. but has very very limited power for a 1B.

When he was with the Jays last year he looked okay, but I don't know if he lasts. He's been in the minors his whole career pretty much, he could be trade bait... because let's face it, the Jays won't get a wiffle ball in return for Lind.

alistar
05-16-2012, 09:14 AM
Honeslty it could happen. Cooper though is difficult to read just because he's always been successful at AAA, he hits for a great avg. but has very very limited power for a 1B.

When he was with the Jays last year he looked okay, but I don't know if he lasts. He's been in the minors his whole career pretty much, he could be trade bait... because let's face it, the Jays won't get a wiffle ball in return for Lind.

Yeah, don't think your going to get much more than that in return for Cooper either

wamco
05-16-2012, 10:16 AM
why sign vlad over abreu?

KaiserSose
05-16-2012, 11:02 AM
[QUOTE=KaiserSose;22190066]Instead of arguing with you let's make this very simple. Even if Fielder was average at defense (which you don't need UZR to tell you he isn't) or base-running, I still wouldn't want him at 9/214 or whatever he got. That contract is terrible and even Detroit fans couldn't argue it wasn't apart from saying the old man (owner) wants a championship before he dies.


are the gonzo and tex contracts terrible as well?

Not as terrible but don't love them either. Hate no trade clauses. I think I like Gonzalez contract best of the three due to shorter length, no full no trade clause, better body type.

wamco
05-16-2012, 12:14 PM
a bad body would be josh hamilton imo.

fielder meanwhile is the consecutive games leader in mlb.

If you were a tigers fan, would you have been pissed at the fielder signing?

KaiserSose
05-16-2012, 01:48 PM
a bad body would be josh hamilton imo.

fielder meanwhile is the consecutive games leader in mlb.

If you were a tigers fan, would you have been pissed at the fielder signing?


Josh Hamilton would be a different type of bad body type. Hard to say how I would feel as a Tigers fan since I'm not a Tigers fan. I'm not pissed at it though. I would be worried is all. Objectively. Obviously he is an upgrade in the interim, we have Lind at first for goodness sake. I can't wait for Prince to hit his 30-32 years and then become as productive as Wells and see how the Tigers react.

2009mvp
05-16-2012, 02:38 PM
Except he's never gonna be as bad as Wells, since they possess(ed) completely different skills.

wamco
05-16-2012, 06:24 PM
and one is mike jordan and the other is pippen.

Toxeryll
05-16-2012, 07:04 PM
why sign vlad over abreu?

why sign vlad and abreu over derreck lee

wamco
05-17-2012, 03:59 AM
i'd like to hear an answer to either question