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View Full Version : 2012 NBA ReDraft 2nd Round - #3) New Orleans Hornets vs. #7) Denver Nuggets



KnicksorBust
05-05-2012, 12:15 PM
Welcome to the 2012 NBA ReDraft voting process. The redraft is exactly how it sounds. The rosters of every NBA team are cleared and then drafted again from scratch. Posters from the site draft full rosters under a salary cap and then there is a voting process to make the playoffs. We are now in the playoffs and the head to head matchups have begun. Please remember to vote for the roster and write-up you believe would win a 7 game series and leave any of your personal preference for the real teams out of your decision. Thank you and enjoy the playoffs!

Hornets:
G: Mo Williams - Beno Udrih
G: Dwyane Wade - Klay Thompson
F: Gerald Wallace - Reggie Williams - Chris Singleton
F: Paul Millsap - Markieff Morris
C: Tiago Splitter - Greg Stiemsma - Erick Dampier

Nuggets:
PG: Jrue Holiday | Jordan Farmar
SG: Gordon Hayward | Marshon Brooks | Michael Redd
SF: Carmelo Anthony | Jeff Green
PF: Andrea Bargnani | Jason Thompson
C: Anderson Varejao | Robin Lopez | Andris Biedrins



***Introducing the Denver Nuggets, led by Greg and Sportfan aka Da Mayne Attractions.***

Coach/GM/President/Motivator/God: Sean Mayne

***Sean Mayne and his worshipers are back for round 2, and ready to shock the world once again. Voting against us is like voting against Sean Mayne, which is like voting against God. Why would you ever vote against God?***

PG: Jrue Holiday vs. Mo Williams - We see this as a big advantage for our team. Jrue is a great defender (allowing 0.75 PPP, which is one of the best for PG's). He's also a lethal 3 point shooter, hitting about 39% for the year. Jrue has also shown an ability to score as well, if you watch him in the Philly/Bulls series, who are one of the top defensive teams in the league. Mo, on the other hand, is a terrible defensive player (giving up 0.9 PPP!), which puts him 329th in the league :puke:. And he's also been known as an inconsistent shooter/scorer as well. This matchup is a big win for us.

SG: Gordon Hayward vs. Dwyane Wade - Well obviously Wade is the better player. And it will take more than just one player to stop him. We do have some players to throw at him like Holiday, Brooks, and Green. Just to give him different looks. We're fine with Wade having a big game, our goal is to try and contain everyone else. If we do that, I have no doubt we can win this series. No way is Wade alone gonna beat us. And he doesn't really have an elite 2nd scorer playing alongside him either. So if his shot is not falling, watch out.

SF: Carmelo Anthony vs. Gerald Wallace - We absolutely rape this matchup. If anyone thinks the Hayward/Wade matchup is a mismatch, this might is even worse. Gerald Wallace sucks. Point blank. He's not even 10% the same player he was on the Bobcats. You seriously expect this guy to be a reliable offensive option for Wade? Good luck spreading the floor for Wade to operate. And his defense is even worse. This guy gives up 0.95 PPP, which is 398th in the league :laugh2:! How many players are in the league right now? He also ranks 200th (0.92 PPP) in defending post-ups and 254th (0.92 PPP) defending iso's. Carmelo will eat this guy. He has proven it against MUCH better defenders. They just don't have anyone that can contain Melo. No matter who they put on him. Unless they wanna put Wade on Melo. Which wouldn't be such a bad thing for us, considering Carmelo would definitely wear him out and get him in foul trouble. We win this matchup bad.
PF: Andrea Bargnani vs. Paul Millsap - This is definitely a close matchup, but we believe Bargnani has the advantage in it. Millsap is not that good of a defender (0.82 PPP), putting him at 147th in the league. Bargs has a huge height advantage, so he'll have no problem shooting over Millsap. And overall, just has too much of an offensive arsenal. He can score in the post, drive to the basket, and of course, hit the jumper and 3. Also, spreading the floor for Melo to operate. And defensively, Bargs is putting up great synergy numbers. Overall, only giving up 0.73 PPP, putting him as one of the best for bigs. Including giving up an incredible 0.61 PPP (17th in the league) in post-ups and 0.71 PPP (24th in the league) guarding spot-up jumpers. Millsap takes most of his shots from post-ups and spot-ups, so we believe Bargnani can shut Millsap down this series, putting even more pressure on Wade to score. We win this matchup as well.

C: Anderson Varejao vs. Tiago Splitter - We also feel we win this matchup. Both are energy/hustle guys, but Varejao has more experience, and just a better player. Splitter has averaged less than 16 minutes and has only started 8 games in his career. That's a lot of pressure to put on a guy. Especially when you're expected to probably play at least 30 minutes a game, considering the scrub that is backing him up. Varejao also put up 10.8 PPG and 11.5 RPG this year, both career highs. While shooting over 50%. We also win this matchup.

Bench: Nuggets vs. Hornets - We see this as a huge advantage for us. Our bench is just way more deep and talented. There's just so much versatility. Playmakers, shooters, perimeter and post defenders. Giving us the ability to probably go 10 or 11 deep without a considerable drop off in talent. We have Farmar, who put up ridiculous shooting numbers this year (10.4 PPG, 47 FG%, 44 3P%, 90 FT%). Brooks and Redd can come in and give us scoring. Green is an all around player, giving us a bit of everything. Thompson gives us a nice scoring and rebounding big. Then you got the duo of Lopez and Biedrins, who are both big hustle and energy guys, who will rebound and play D.

However, the same can't be said for the Hornets. Their bench is very weak. Udrih is crap. Klay scored 12.5 PPG on 11 shots, which is obviously horrible. Reggie shoots terrible %'s. Markieff is a rookie big man shooting under 40% from the field. And Stiemsma...no comment. Wade better play all 48 minutes because if he goes to the bench, they have absolutely no one else that can give them reliable scoring. The drop off from their starters to their bench is just huge. And we feel this is what will make us win this series.

Overall - Overall, we feel that we beat them in every matchup, other than SG. And Wade by himself is not beating us. We have an excellent man to man defender in Bargnani, who will definitely limit their 2nd best player. And after that, they basically have no other player that is a reliable scorer. Gerald Wallace is basically a glorified role player, who plays atrocious defense. Carmelo will absolutely destroy him. Bargnani gives us that 2nd scorer, and spreads the floor for Melo to work in iso's and the post. And Holiday is a tenacious defender, who's showing in the playoffs that he can score as well. Plus the huge advantage with our bench. We just feel that we have the better overall team, and the depth needed to win this series. PLUS WE GOT THAT SEAN MAYNE, PUTTING US OVER THE TOP. WHERE MA WORSHIPERS AT! Peace.

The Hornets did not send in a write-up.

KnicksorBust
05-05-2012, 12:19 PM
Part of me wants to vote against the Hornets just because they didn't send in a write-up but that's not what this is all about. The Hornets biggest weakness is at the 5 and the Nuggets can't even take advantage of that. This is close.

Green_Monster
05-05-2012, 12:34 PM
Nuggets in 5. They're better at every position other then SG. But the PF matchup is also very close. Also, their bench might be the best in this game, IMO.

roshan3ai
05-05-2012, 12:35 PM
I just don't see Gordon Hayward stopping Wade. I also think Millsap is just a better player than Bargs, and the center matchup isn't really a big advantage for the Nuggets.

KnicksorBust
05-05-2012, 12:36 PM
This is exactly the type of opponent that the Hornets could get away with a small lineup - Mo/Wade/Klay/Wallace/Millsap.

I'd say that the Hornets are in trouble because they can't guard Melo but the Nuggets can't guard Wade either and Wade is clearly a more effective star than Melo.

SeoulBeatz
05-05-2012, 12:39 PM
Nuggets.

Sadds The Gr8
05-05-2012, 12:42 PM
Hornets. Wade ups his game in the playoffs, while Melo's game declines heavily in the playoffs. Nuggets can't take advantage of the C position which u need to do to take out NOH. PG is a wash, and Millsap is no doubt better than Bargnani. Nuggets have absolutely no playmaking and have an ISO based offense, and on the other hand u have Wade who can create for teammates and takeover a game on both ends. Hornets built a pretty solid team around Wade they just lack a Center.

I would've just boycotted this matchup because the Hornets didnt send in a writeup but they clearly don't really matter, as round 1 showed.

VCaintdead17
05-05-2012, 12:53 PM
Bargs synergy numbers are an outlier. He only played that kind of defense for about a month. There is no doubt in my mind he would have gotten worse as the season went along.

Also, Milsap's defense is fine, Nuggets are underselling it.

And Varajao has been pretty bad on defense this year. Hornets front court dominates the Nuggets and that's how they get the win here.

Sportfan
05-05-2012, 01:26 PM
BREAKING NEWS!!!!! JRUE HOLLIDAY AND HIS GIGANTIC 6'4 SIZE WILL BE DEFENDING WADE! JRUE's DEFENSE IS TOP 3 DEFENSIVE PPP FOR PG's ABD HE CAN CONTAIN WADE!!!!!



MORE BREAKING NEWS!!! G FORCE IS OVERRATED. VERY MEH OFFENSIVELY AND HIS DEFENSE IS OVVERRATED!!! NO MELO SHUTDOWN DOEEE

Sportfan
05-05-2012, 01:33 PM
I just don't see Gordon Hayward stopping Wade. I also think Millsap is just a better player than Bargs, and the center matchup isn't really a big advantage for the Nuggets.
THATS CAUSE HE WON'T!!!!! MARSHON SWAG AND FARMAR ON MO DOEEE!!!! JRUE SHUTDOWN HOLLIDAY ON WADEEE
I beat Brent's #1 in the mock! It's destiny for history to repeat itself!!!

Sportfan
05-05-2012, 02:40 PM
also notice the hornets did not send in a writeup! one has to question their dedication!!!! DO YOU GUYS WANT TO SEE A LAME WCF WITH NO EXCITEMENT!!!?!?!??!? THE NUGGETS AND GRIZZ STOLE THE SHOW IN ROUND 1 AND WE'LL DO IT AGAIN AND AGAIN!!!!!

kingbrentg
05-05-2012, 03:03 PM
Holy ****, shut the **** up.

kingbrentg
05-05-2012, 03:04 PM
I'll post my case when I have the time later today. I've had a rough 24 hours.

Ebbs
05-05-2012, 03:44 PM
Holy ****, shut the **** up.

:laugh:

VCaintdead17
05-05-2012, 04:06 PM
:laugh:

Sportfan
05-05-2012, 04:18 PM
Holy ****, shut the **** up.
? (http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/096/044/trollface.jpg?1296494117)

Chacarron
05-05-2012, 04:24 PM
we believe Bargnani can shut Millsap down this series

I couldn't stop laughing when I read this. Sorry maynes, but that was funny.

greg_ory_2005
05-05-2012, 04:41 PM
Bargs :drool:

Sportfan
05-05-2012, 05:03 PM
just like jrue shut down the bulls :drool:



chac+melo=(insert smiley that psd doesnt have)

greg_ory_2005
05-05-2012, 06:11 PM
Don't sleep on Jrue. Guy has been ballin in the playoffs, against one of the best defensive teams. Plus has that lockdown defense.

Eagles4Lyfe
05-05-2012, 09:52 PM
I couldn't stop laughing when I read this. Sorry maynes, but that was funny.

He can't shut him down but Bargs this year beasted on millsap in their matchup in Utah. He was unstoppable basically if he didn't get hurt he would've had more.
Millsap can't stop bargs and vice versa

Eagles4Lyfe
05-05-2012, 09:53 PM
I'll let brent have a say since he asked to give him some time before voting

Sportfan
05-05-2012, 11:09 PM
He can't shut him down but Bargs this year beasted on millsap in their matchup in Utah. He was unstoppable basically if he didn't get hurt he would've had more.
Millsap can't stop bargs and vice versa
That's what's up

kingbrentg
05-05-2012, 11:42 PM
PG: Jrue Holiday vs. Mo Williams - We see this as a big advantage for our team. Jrue is a great defender (allowing 0.75 PPP, which is one of the best for PG's). He's also a lethal 3 point shooter, hitting about 39% for the year. Jrue has also shown an ability to score as well, if you watch him in the Philly/Bulls series, who are one of the top defensive teams in the league. Mo, on the other hand, is a terrible defensive player (giving up 0.9 PPP!), which puts him 329th in the league :puke:. And he's also been known as an inconsistent shooter/scorer as well. This matchup is a big win for us.

You're not making a lot of sense here. Jrue is a lethal 3-point shooter at 38%, yet Mo shoots a point higher at 39% (on his career as well) and is called inconsistent?

Mo is one of the best spot-up shooters in the league, which is exactly what he'll be thriving with here next to Wade. As well as his ability/track record of knocking down big shots and using screens.

And Jrue wasn't exactly dominating offensively this season, and is actually a lower ranked offensive player than Mo. Let's not forget the fact he's playing against a hobbled backup point guard (Watson) and a d-league wonder boy (Lucas) in this series now as well.

And if you choose to have Jrue guarding Wade (as sportfan suggested) have fun. Rip Hamilton has been able to get him into serious foul trouble, so I'd be thrilled to see what Wade would do with him one-on-one.



SG: Gordon Hayward vs. Dwyane Wade - Well obviously Wade is the better player. And it will take more than just one player to stop him. We do have some players to throw at him like Holiday, Brooks, and Green. Just to give him different looks. We're fine with Wade having a big game, our goal is to try and contain everyone else. If we do that, I have no doubt we can win this series. No way is Wade alone gonna beat us. And he doesn't really have an elite 2nd scorer playing alongside him either. So if his shot is not falling, watch out.

We'll love that. And we have plenty of offensive options to help him out and compliment him as well. Millsap is a perfectly capable #2 option to Wade, and our other guys compliment the two of them very nicely with cutting abilities and floor spacing.



SF: Carmelo Anthony vs. Gerald Wallace - We absolutely rape this matchup. If anyone thinks the Hayward/Wade matchup is a mismatch, this might is even worse. Gerald Wallace sucks. Point blank. He's not even 10% the same player he was on the Bobcats. You seriously expect this guy to be a reliable offensive option for Wade? Good luck spreading the floor for Wade to operate. And his defense is even worse. This guy gives up 0.95 PPP, which is 398th in the league :laugh2:! How many players are in the league right now? He also ranks 200th (0.92 PPP) in defending post-ups and 254th (0.92 PPP) defending iso's. Carmelo will eat this guy. He has proven it against MUCH better defenders. They just don't have anyone that can contain Melo. No matter who they put on him. Unless they wanna put Wade on Melo. Which wouldn't be such a bad thing for us, considering Carmelo would definitely wear him out and get him in foul trouble. We win this matchup bad.

This is absolutely laughable.

Just as people became so infatuated with advanced statistics, the same is happening with synergy and using PPP and league rank to completely form an opinion on a player. Stop letting your computer do your thinking and acknowledge that Wallace is definitely still a defender that's going to hassle Melo and make him work very hard for every basket.

Those are also his synergy numbers with the Nets anyway. Which = very small sample size and there being an extreme lack of help defense behind him (Portland's wasn't much better). And no, synergy doesn't account for that. Wallace guarding the other team's best/elite scorer's every night is going to skew his ratings as well.

Gerald Wallace "sucks. Point blank." is just a joke. His rebounding, defending, creating turnovers, creating/offensive abilities, and opportunities to run the floor with Wade far from suck.



PF: Andrea Bargnani vs. Paul Millsap - This is definitely a close matchup, but we believe Bargnani has the advantage in it. Millsap is not that good of a defender (0.82 PPP), putting him at 147th in the league. Bargs has a huge height advantage, so he'll have no problem shooting over Millsap. And overall, just has too much of an offensive arsenal. He can score in the post, drive to the basket, and of course, hit the jumper and 3. Also, spreading the floor for Melo to operate. And defensively, Bargs is putting up great synergy numbers. Overall, only giving up 0.73 PPP, putting him as one of the best for bigs. Including giving up an incredible 0.61 PPP (17th in the league) in post-ups and 0.71 PPP (24th in the league) guarding spot-up jumpers. Millsap takes most of his shots from post-ups and spot-ups, so we believe Bargnani can shut Millsap down this series, putting even more pressure on Wade to score. We win this matchup as well.

More of what I stated above. Relying way to heavily on synergy rankings to form an opinion. Millsap is actually regarded as a very solid, aggressive defender. Hell, even the synergy numbers are solid. So I have no idea where you're pulling your conclusion from.

Bargnani is a fine player, of course. But having the advantage over Millsap? Come on, man. At least be realistic. Millsap is one of the most efficient big men in the league and thinking Bargnani is going to stop him is insane. Millsap has shot nearly 60% (58.3%) from the field in matchups against Bargs. While overall, Bargs has shot a whopping 37%.

Not to mention Sap will be able to dominate him on the glass.



C: Anderson Varejao vs. Tiago Splitter - We also feel we win this matchup. Both are energy/hustle guys, but Varejao has more experience, and just a better player. Splitter has averaged less than 16 minutes and has only started 8 games in his career. That's a lot of pressure to put on a guy. Especially when you're expected to probably play at least 30 minutes a game, considering the scrub that is backing him up. Varejao also put up 10.8 PPG and 11.5 RPG this year, both career highs. While shooting over 50%. We also win this matchup.

Splitter will only be expected to play 30+ minutes if he's showing the ability on that given night. We have no problem going small with Millsap at the 5 or letting Steimsma's defense get extended run or Dampier's experience have a shot.

But we're very confident in Splitter, who has stepped up and been tremendous in games where Duncan has sat this season. Not to mention his incredible efficiency and his solid ability to protect the rim in more ways than one (blocks or great rotations with team defense).

Even if Varejao wins the battle, it's not by enough to overcome the other positions.




Bench: Nuggets vs. Hornets - We see this as a huge advantage for us. Our bench is just way more deep and talented. There's just so much versatility. Playmakers, shooters, perimeter and post defenders. Giving us the ability to probably go 10 or 11 deep without a considerable drop off in talent. We have Farmar, who put up ridiculous shooting numbers this year (10.4 PPG, 47 FG%, 44 3P%, 90 FT%). Brooks and Redd can come in and give us scoring. Green is an all around player, giving us a bit of everything. Thompson gives us a nice scoring and rebounding big. Then you got the duo of Lopez and Biedrins, who are both big hustle and energy guys, who will rebound and play D.

However, the same can't be said for the Hornets. Their bench is very weak. Udrih is crap. Klay scored 12.5 PPG on 11 shots, which is obviously horrible. Reggie shoots terrible %'s. Markieff is a rookie big man shooting under 40% from the field. And Stiemsma...no comment. Wade better play all 48 minutes because if he goes to the bench, they have absolutely no one else that can give them reliable scoring. The drop off from their starters to their bench is just huge. And we feel this is what will make us win this series.

More false statements. The fact you don't even have a comment for Stiemsma shows lack of knowledge here (and I don't mean to sound like a dick with that). Stiemsma has been tremendous defensively for the Celtics, and that's all we need from him. A fantastic shot blocker and near Omer Asik rankings defensively.

Udrih is having a down year in a terrible situation in Milwaukee, we're not worried about his contributions at all. He's a well-known respectable 3-point shooter and creator.

Klay is a nice spark. He and Markieff are also very nice floor spacers that will be mixed in with the starting unit, as well and Markieff being a solid rebounder and defender. Williams also has been a very good shooter and solid player.

Singleton is a fantastic defender as well, with the ability to handle 4 different positions. He'll be our defensive specialist off the bench if he's needed. I'm running out of time here though, so I'm not going to go into great depth to defend my bench. It is definitely solid to a knowledgeable fan though (again no insult intended).




? (http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/096/044/trollface.jpg?1296494117)

Of course not. Please continue to post in giant bold caps and use words that make no sense. Your swag is off the chain.

Eagles4Lyfe
05-05-2012, 11:45 PM
Ouch

Sportfan
05-06-2012, 01:09 AM
You're not making a lot of sense here. Jrue is a lethal 3-point shooter at 38%, yet Mo shoots a point higher at 39% (on his career as well) and is called inconsistent?
he is inconsistent. his 3 point FG% has been as low as 31% monthy and as high as 46%. last year he had months where he shot in the low-mid 20% from 3 and then 40% in another. He can be on fire, but at the same time go ice cold.


Mo is one of the best spot-up shooters in the league, which is exactly what he'll be thriving with here next to Wade. As well as his ability/track record of knocking down big shots and using screens.
I can agree with most of this except the last part. Mo is shooting 36% off screens.


And Jrue wasn't exactly dominating offensively this season, and is actually a lower ranked offensive player than Mo. Let's not forget the fact he's playing against a hobbled backup point guard (Watson) and a d-league wonder boy (Lucas) in this series now as well.
Guess which PG Jrue's career high was against? Mo Will.


And if you choose to have Jrue guarding Wade (as sportfan suggested) have fun. Rip Hamilton has been able to get him into serious foul trouble, so I'd be thrilled to see what Wade would do with him one-on-one.
that was 1 game....out of what, 5?






This is absolutely laughable.

Just as people became so infatuated with advanced statistics, the same is happening with synergy and using PPP and league rank to completely form an opinion on a player. Stop letting your computer do your thinking and acknowledge that Wallace is definitely still a defender that's going to hassle Melo and make him work very hard for every basket.
weren't those the stats people used to hype wallace up years ago when he got no love?

but ok, leave the ppp stats and lets go back to head2head.

Carmelo against Wallace-53 FG%....44 3PT%........8 FTA's......27 ppg....melo has gone for 33+ 4 times in their 11 meetings. And that is taking in games when Wallace's defense stat wise was top notch. Melo will have his way with Wallace any way you look at it, and there isn't the interior D to help him much either.




Those are also his synergy numbers with the Nets anyway. Which = very small sample size and there being an extreme lack of help defense behind him (Portland's wasn't much better). And no, synergy doesn't account for that. Wallace guarding the other team's best/elite scorer's every night is going to skew his ratings as well.
actually nets/blazers (with that terrible supporting cast) scored the same amount of points with him on or off the court. Actually the Blazers scored more with him off. The defense went down with him off the court, but as shown above Melo still eats Wallace up.





More of what I stated above. Relying way to heavily on synergy rankings to form an opinion. Millsap is actually regarded as a very solid, aggressive defender. Hell, even the synergy numbers are solid. So I have no idea where you're pulling your conclusion from.

Bargnani is a fine player, of course. But having the advantage over Millsap? Come on, man. At least be realistic. Millsap is one of the most efficient big men in the league and thinking Bargnani is going to stop him is insane. Millsap has shot nearly 60% (58.3%) from the field in matchups against Bargs. While overall, Bargs has shot a whopping 37%.
millsap gets most of his shots in the post-up, where he's not even that efficient (39 FG% in post). Barg's is one of the top post defenders this season. Millsap's 2nd most shots come from the mid range spot up, where Bargs has been even better at defending this year. so yes Bargs matches up extremely well against Millsap defensively.

Not to mention Sap will be able to dominate him on the glass.
which is negated by the fact that varejao dominates both milly and splitter on the board. Vaj's rebounding % is 3rd in the league behind Camby and Dwight at 21%.




Splitter will only be expected to play 30+ minutes if he's showing the ability on that given night. We have no problem going small with Millsap at the 5 or letting Steimsma's defense get extended run or Dampier's experience have a shot.
? if millsap is going at the 5, how do the other positions line up? thompson off the bench moving wallace to PF against a 7 footer and letting melo toy around with a rookie?

Dampier is a pile of **** now, if you're counting on him to give you minutes you're in trouble. it took Atlanta's top 3 big men to go down (Smoove/Horford/Zaza) for Damp to even get a lick of playing time and you know they weren't feeling too good about it.


Even if Varejao wins the battle, it's not by enough to overcome the other positions.
what positions? you have a clear victory at 1 positon. we have 3 clear wins plus a much better bench.




More false statements. The fact you don't even have a comment for Stiemsma shows lack of knowledge here (and I don't mean to sound like a dick with that). Stiemsma has been tremendous defensively for the Celtics, and that's all we need from him. A fantastic shot blocker and near Omer Asik rankings defensively.
I loveee Steam and he's a very good shot blocker but he gets into too much foul trouble. almost 3 in 14 minutes. melo could attack the rim and get steam in easy foul trouble. Vaj would play him physical too.


Udrih is having a down year in a terrible situation in Milwaukee, we're not worried about his contributions at all. He's a well-known respectable 3-point shooter and creator.
poor defensively and the 3 point shot has not been there this year.

Klay is a nice spark. He and Markieff are also very nice floor spacers that will be mixed in with the starting unit, as well and Markieff being a solid rebounder and defender. Williams also has been a very good shooter and solid player.
they are also rookies. both were pretty bad defenders in the regular season and the pressure of the postseason will probably cause even more mistakes. markieff is inefficient offensively as well plus a mediocre rebounder so other than spacing i don't see what he brings. thompson is a very good shooter i will give you that. i like his potential a lot irl.



Singleton is a fantastic defender as well, with the ability to handle 4 different positions. He'll be our defensive specialist off the bench if he's needed. I'm running out of time here though, so I'm not going to go into great depth to defend my bench. It is definitely solid to a knowledgeable fan though (again no insult intended).

he might have been known to be one coming out of college but he hasn't translated it to the NBA. also he can't defend 3, much less 4 positions in the NBA right now.

kingbrentg
05-06-2012, 03:04 AM
he is inconsistent. his 3 point FG% has been as low as 31% monthy and as high as 46%. last year he had months where he shot in the low-mid 20% from 3 and then 40% in another. He can be on fire, but at the same time go ice cold.

And my point still remains. If he's inconsistent, then what is Holiday? You can do the same thing for nearly any player.

Holiday has been as high as 30.8% this season and as high as 42.4%. How is that more lethal/consistent than Mo? It's not. That's why there are overall averages.



I can agree with most of this except the last part. Mo is shooting 36% off screens.

Check your facts. 42.4% with a 1.06 PPP and 43.5%Score off screens. That's pretty damn good.

He's well-known for being a good mid-range shooter, especially off screens.



Guess which PG Jrue's career high was against? Mo Will.

See your own quote:


that was 1 game....out of what, 5?




weren't those the stats people used to hype wallace up years ago when he got no love?

but ok, leave the ppp stats and lets go back to head2head.

Carmelo against Wallace-53 FG%....44 3PT%........8 FTA's......27 ppg....melo has gone for 33+ 4 times in their 11 meetings. And that is taking in games when Wallace's defense stat wise was top notch. Melo will have his way with Wallace any way you look at it, and there isn't the interior D to help him much either.

Because every one of those shots were against Wallace and were 100% conducive of Wallace's defense, right. There's only so much you're going to get out of any stat for overall defensive performance.

And I never claimed Wallace was going to shut down Melo. Just like no one is going to shut down Wade. But Wallace is going to provide just about as tough of a defensive presence as you can find to make Anthony work, especially in a playoff series. He's not at the same level as he was, but to say he completely sucks now is just a joke. He has plenty left in the tank to help us get past this round.

You were even asking to trade for him and Millsap during the game. :laugh2:

And that's just false, we have solid interior defense and plenty of guys in our rotation that can contest shots and rotate well. Millsap and Splitter are both good help defenders and protect the rim and get steals, Stiemsma is a beast inside protecting the rim amongst other things, Dampier has lost a step but still provides a shot blocking presence as well. Even Morris is a solid.



actually nets/blazers (with that terrible supporting cast) scored the same amount of points with him on or off the court. Actually the Blazers scored more with him off. The defense went down with him off the court, but as shown above Melo still eats Wallace up.

Better check those facts again because you're either reading them wrong or... who knows what.

http://www.82games.com/1112/1112POR1.HTM



millsap gets most of his shots in the post-up, where he's not even that efficient (39 FG% in post). Barg's is one of the top post defenders this season. Millsap's 2nd most shots come from the mid range spot up, where Bargs has been even better at defending this year. so yes Bargs matches up extremely well against Millsap defensively.

Not well enough to keep Millsap from shooting 58.3% against him (since you're going to go this route with Anthony, I'll use it for Millsap) as well as dropping 31 on him this year.

People really underrate Millsap as a whole. Especially with the very marginal at best spacing he's been suited with this season, as well as sharing the inside with Al Jefferson.

He still finds a way to go out and put up a 52.4 eFG%, 56.6 TS%, 18.6 PER (21.8 this season), with a 20+ USG% on his career. The guy knows how to get it done and makes a great #2 option for Wade.



which is negated by the fact that varejao dominates both milly and splitter on the board. Vaj's rebounding % is 3rd in the league behind Camby and Dwight at 21%.

He played 25 games and has been under 17% on his career

He's a fine rebounder, but if you think he's going to dominate our entire front line on the boards alone you're beyond hope.



? if millsap is going at the 5, how do the other positions line up? thompson off the bench moving wallace to PF against a 7 footer and letting melo toy around with a rookie?

You're going to play your starters for 48 minutes, huh? All depends on matchups there, guy. That's the kind of lineup we can go to for extra scoringin the right situation to push the tempo, and Wallace will still be on Melo along with Singleton possibly getting minutes as well.



Dampier is a pile of **** now, if you're counting on him to give you minutes you're in trouble. it took Atlanta's top 3 big men to go down (Smoove/Horford/Zaza) for Damp to even get a lick of playing time and you know they weren't feeling too good about it.

Yeah, not sure why you're putting words in my mouth. Never said we were relying on him, I said he could give us some minutes. There's a difference.

And a pile of **** that was still near an 18.0 TRB% and a 4.0 BLK%. Totally worthless.


what positions? you have a clear victory at 1 positon. we have 3 clear wins plus a much better bench.

Congratulations for stating your opinion, I guess.

Series aren't decided on who wins 3 of 5 position battles anyway.



I loveee Steam and he's a very good shot blocker but he gets into too much foul trouble. almost 3 in 14 minutes. melo could attack the rim and get steam in easy foul trouble. Vaj would play him physical too.

Same could be said for Wade going at Varejao and/or Bargs. We'll just attack them until they foul out. Too bad it doesn't just work like that. Splitter is still getting a majority of the minutes and Stiemer's fouls will be a non-issue.



poor defensively and the 3 point shot has not been there this year.

Added nothing to my original statement. He's been a pretty consistent 3-point shooting threat/creator/scorer over his career. Putting him back into a situation where he can thrive and not be jerked around by Scott Skiles rotations will benefit him.



they are also rookies. both were pretty bad defenders in the regular season and the pressure of the postseason will probably cause even more mistakes. markieff is inefficient offensively as well plus a mediocre rebounder so other than spacing i don't see what he brings. thompson is a very good shooter i will give you that. i like his potential a lot irl.

Who cares if they're rookies? People look far too much into this facet. Rookies that can play and be effective can be just as much of a contributor as a veteran. Especially guys like Markieff and Klay who were both well-seasoned during their college careers.

And again, I have no idea where you're pulling your facts from that Markieff is a bad defender. Far from it. That was one of his main selling points coming into the league and believe me, I watch enough Kansas to know. He's done a nice job for the Suns this year defensively and spacing the floor.



he might have been known to be one coming out of college but he hasn't translated it to the NBA. also he can't defend 3, much less 4 positions in the NBA right now.

He's actually looked pretty good from the games I've seen and from the things I've read from different writers. His defense is exactly what got him worked into the lineup and playing decent minutes.

KnicksorBust
05-06-2012, 10:01 AM
We got a real battle going on in here. This is what I like to see. :clap:

Sportfan
05-06-2012, 01:45 PM
And my point still remains. If he's inconsistent, then what is Holiday? You can do the same thing for nearly any player.

Holiday has been as high as 30.8% this season and as high as 42.4%. How is that more lethal/consistent than Mo? It's not. That's why there are overall averages.
in a 4 game month and the range isn't as big as Mo's.

Even looking at FG%, Jrue has been pretty stable with his numbers between 42-47% each month. Mo went from a 53 FG% in January to 35% in February.

And Jrue is also more effective in the other areas of the game, passing and defense.



Check your facts. 42.4% with a 1.06 PPP and 43.5%Score off screens. That's pretty damn good.

He's well-known for being a good mid-range shooter, especially off screens.

just rechecked, my number was wrong but so is yours lol. synergy says 40% FG with a .86 PPP off screens




See your own quote:


if you can use it, why can't I? Can't both be in your favor.





Because every one of those shots were against Wallace and were 100% conducive of Wallace's defense, right. There's only so much you're going to get out of any stat for overall defensive performance.
my sarcasm meter is ringing ding ding ding

And you're using Steam's defensive numbers to claim he's a defensive beast, I at least agreed that Steam is a very good help defender so why are you being hypocritical with these stats?

And yes, considering Wallace was on the court, and as you say, he guards the opponents best wing, he is responsible for those points.

A
nd I never claimed Wallace was going to shut down Melo. Just like no one is going to shut down Wade. But Wallace is going to provide just about as tough of a defensive presence as you can find to make Anthony work, especially in a playoff series. He's not at the same level as he was, but to say he completely sucks now is just a joke. He has plenty left in the tank to help us get past this round.
And again, Melo has been able to pick Wallace apart.


You were even asking to trade for him and Millsap during the game. :laugh2:
how is this relevant to the argument?


And that's just false, we have solid interior defense and plenty of guys in our rotation that can contest shots and rotate well. Millsap and Splitter are both good help defenders and protect the rim and get steals, Stiemsma is a beast inside protecting the rim amongst other things, Dampier has lost a step but still provides a shot blocking presence as well. Even Morris is a solid.
solid? ok, nothing special either way. none of your bigs are very good defending the post statistically. splitter and Steam go from having Duncan and KG as their post mates, to Paul Millsap. Difference.




Better check those facts again because you're either reading them wrong or... who knows what.

http://www.82games.com/1112/1112POR1.HTM


Offense: Pts per 100 Poss.
ON-105.7
OFF-106.9
NET:-1.3
straight from Gerald Wallace's 82games profile page. show me where I'm wrong again.


Not well enough to keep Millsap from shooting 58.3% against him (since you're going to go this route with Anthony, I'll use it for Millsap) as well as dropping 31 on him this year.
I didn't watch the game so I don't know, but I'm assuming Bargs played most of the game at center considering Gray was only in for 15, and klieza/JJ had the size to matchup against millsap.


also jason thompson held millsap to 8 ppg in their 3 meetings this year, so we have backup.



He played 25 games and has been under 17% on his career

He's a fine rebounder, but if you think he's going to dominate our entire front line on the boards alone you're beyond hope.

its not like 25 games is something to scoff at.
up to the all star break the cavs were a top 5 rebounding team, mainly because of Varejao. they fell to the bottom 10 when he was out. he's a big difference maker on the glass.



You're going to play your starters for 48 minutes, huh? All depends on matchups there, guy. That's the kind of lineup we can go to for extra scoringin the right situation to push the tempo, and Wallace will still be on Melo along with Singleton possibly getting minutes as well.

Nope, and we won't take a loss because the bench is strong. farmar has played amazingly efficient with a 44% from 3. he will do work on mo if jrue's "inconsistent" shot isn't falling.

singleton on melo is such a huge huge huge mismatch its not even funny.



Yeah, not sure why you're putting words in my mouth. Never said we were relying on him, I said he could give us some minutes. There's a difference.
chill
either way he's still a pile of ****.


And a pile of **** that was still near an 18.0 TRB% and a 4.0 BLK%. Totally worthless.
in garbage minutes? pile of ****.



Congratulations for stating your opinion, I guess.
:up:

Series aren't decided on who wins 3 of 5 position battles anyway.
they are usually favored though. oh yea, plus having a better bench.




Same could be said for Wade going at Varejao and/or Bargs. We'll just attack them until they foul out. Too bad it doesn't just work like that. Splitter is still getting a majority of the minutes and Stiemer's fouls will be a non-issue.


both play more than twice as many minutes than Steam and have less per game fouls still, so calling it a non-issue is basically running away from an agrument.


Added nothing to my original statement. He's been a pretty consistent 3-point shooting threat/creator/scorer over his career. Putting him back into a situation where he can thrive and not be jerked around by Scott Skiles rotations will benefit him.
you're really pulling for best case scenario here.




Who cares if they're rookies? People look far too much into this facet. Rookies that can play and be effective can be just as much of a contributor as a veteran. Especially guys like Markieff and Klay who were both well-seasoned during their college careers.
didn't markieff choke against VCU?


And again, I have no idea where you're pulling your facts from that Markieff is a bad defender. Far from it. That was one of his main selling points coming into the league and believe me, I watch enough Kansas to know. He's done a nice job for the Suns this year defensively and spacing the floor.

He's actually looked pretty good from the games I've seen and from the things I've read from different writers. His defense is exactly what got him worked into the lineup and playing decent minutes

its very difficult for a rookie to immediately be a good defender going from the college level to the NBA, especially going against 2 great scorers at the forward position. I'm sure in a couple years he'll be regarded a very solid defensive player but right now no, he won't be very successful guarding Bargs or Melo. Same goes for Singleton.

kingbrentg
05-06-2012, 02:52 PM
in a 4 game month and the range isn't as big as Mo's.

Even looking at FG%, Jrue has been pretty stable with his numbers between 42-47% each month. Mo went from a 53 FG% in January to 35% in February.

And Jrue is also more effective in the other areas of the game, passing and defense.

And 31.4% in a 15 games month. Quit cherry picking lol.

And I thought we were talking about 3PT%? That was the whole reason I even brought this up because the original post I was responding to said Holiday was a lethal 3PT threat, yet Mo is inconsistent. Which is simply untrue one way or another.

And excuse a guy for having a bad month. He's actually had pretty consistent month-by-month shooting in his career.

Ranging from 42.8 FG% - 45.2 FG% and 36.8 3PT% - 40.5 3PT%

I don't see what you're going to gain here by nitpicking on a well-known shooter's 1 month this season. Kind of pointless.



just rechecked, my number was wrong but so is yours lol. synergy says 40% FG with a .86 PPP off screens


Here ya go:

http://i.imgur.com/lofOV.png



my sarcasm meter is ringing ding ding ding

And you're using Steam's defensive numbers to claim he's a defensive beast, I at least agreed that Steam is a very good help defender so why are you being hypocritical with these stats?

And yes, considering Wallace was on the court, and as you say, he guards the opponents best wing, he is responsible for those points.

It should be.

And please show me where I've relied solely on those stats to claim he's a defensive beast. It's pretty common knowledge how great he's been defensively this season and I've watched a large portion of Celtic games this season.

And of course Wallace is going to be responsible for those points. He was the initial defender, so those numbers are going to be charged to him regardless of what kind of help defense he gets. And guarding those upper-echelon players game in and game out is going to skew those numbers a bit. Most of those guys are going to get their numbers.



how is this relevant to the argument?

It shows that you realize their value and yet now you're trying to trash them because they're your opponent.



straight from Gerald Wallace's 82games profile page. show me where I'm wrong again.

Link me then, like I did you. I showed you a link of his production



I didn't watch the game so I don't know, but I'm assuming Bargs played most of the game at center considering Gray was only in for 15, and klieza/JJ had the size to matchup against millsap.

Bargs was on Millsap for most of that game minus a couple attempts during the overtime.

Now I'll go ahead and be honest that I can't provide concrete proof, but I did watch the game.



its not like 25 games is something to scoff at.
up to the all star break the cavs were a top 5 rebounding team, mainly because of Varejao. they fell to the bottom 10 when he was out. he's a big difference maker on the glass.

It kind of is when it's a pretty high anomaly from his career averages.

And again, good luck relying on him to outrebound our whole front line.



Nope, and we won't take a loss because the bench is strong. farmar has played amazingly efficient with a 44% from 3. he will do work on mo if jrue's "inconsistent" shot isn't falling.

singleton on melo is such a huge huge huge mismatch its not even funny.

As is ours. It's good enough with compliments to assure we aren't going to lose this series because of it.

And you're still greatly underrating Singleton.



chill
either way he's still a pile of ****.

in garbage minutes? pile of ****.

Chill what? Great rebuttal.



they are usually favored though. oh yea, plus having a better bench.

We know how well that's worked out in the past.

And a marginally better bench that, again, is very unlikely to be the deciding factor in this series. And that's just me being tired of wasting my breathe.


both play more than twice as many minutes than Steam and have less per game fouls still, so calling it a non-issue is basically running away from an agrument.

LOL right.

It's a non-issue because Stiemsma isn't going to see the near 30 MPG that it'd take for him to foul out.

Definitely running away from an argument.



you're really pulling for best case scenario here.

Not really. History and logic provides a great scenario.



didn't markieff choke against VCU?

I don't know why I'm even responding to a pointless comment like this. But a 1-game sample size is pretty huge and all. Kansas played a completely ****** game as a whole and he still put up 13/12/2/2, but had turnover issues as a main scoring option. That's not what we're asking of him here.



its very difficult for a rookie to immediately be a good defender going from the college level to the NBA, especially going against 2 great scorers at the forward position. I'm sure in a couple years he'll be regarded a very solid defensive player but right now no, he won't be very successful guarding Bargs or Melo. Same goes for Singleton.

Tell that to Singleton and Jimmy Butler, who have both played great stretches of defense this season.

And no, I'm not talking about Klay, I'm talking about Singleton. And you're wrong, he's been more than solid defensively this year.

Cub_StuckinSTL
05-06-2012, 03:13 PM
I think it should be noted that Melo has shown he can't take a team over the top. He's a ball stopper. Hornets are a more complete team that will play together. This will probably be over looked though because I didn't type in bold large letters with breaking news.

Sportfan
05-06-2012, 03:47 PM
very cute how a 21-21 game turns into 30-23 in 45 minutes

PleaseBeNice
05-06-2012, 04:07 PM
hornets!

Baller1
05-06-2012, 04:08 PM
Love that Nuggets team.

Sportfan
05-06-2012, 04:11 PM
Love that Nuggets team.
:love: you always love my teams

bholly
05-06-2012, 04:23 PM
If people wanted to vote on this they'd come into the thread and vote. Everyone sees it there and knows it's available. Don't PM people who've never even heard of you or taken part in anything to do with this asking them to come vote for you.

unleashthebeast
05-06-2012, 04:25 PM
If people wanted to vote on this they'd come into the thread and vote. Everyone sees it there and knows it's available. Don't PM people who've never even heard of you or taken part in anything to do with this asking them to come vote for you.

Wait, who did that?

kingbrentg
05-06-2012, 04:26 PM
I'm guessing it's a general statement. :shrug:

The same thing happened for the Nuggets when I was ahead 22-17 and then they took a 22-23 lead.

Chacarron
05-06-2012, 04:27 PM
If people wanted to vote on this they'd come into the thread and vote. Everyone sees it there and knows it's available. Don't PM people who've never even heard of you or taken part in anything to do with this asking them to come vote for you.

This is interesting.

bholly
05-06-2012, 04:27 PM
Wait, who did that?

sportfan6197, completely unsolicited. then PM'd me again since I posted that telling me not to say he PM'd me.

Sportfan
05-06-2012, 04:28 PM
Wait, who did that?

me


as did ballisall

Chacarron
05-06-2012, 04:28 PM
This is terrible. :pity:

Catfish1314
05-06-2012, 04:29 PM
Sporty knows better :pity:

unleashthebeast
05-06-2012, 04:29 PM
Sporty :sigh:

kingbrentg
05-06-2012, 04:30 PM
Just going to close this until KoB returns. Don't need a big dramatic fuss.