PDA

View Full Version : Does Bynum get the ball enough?



Chronz
05-04-2012, 02:05 PM
Henry Abbot doesnt think so:

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/41901/the-exasperation-of-andrew-bynum

The exasperation of Andrew Bynum


A close examination of the game tape reveals that, up to that point, Bynum had caught the ball that close to the hoop 11 times. He had scored 10 times, the only miss coming when he lofted a shot perhaps only the freakishly long and athletic McGee could have blocked.

Getting the ball to Bynum with a foot in the paint, against the Nuggets, might be the best offensive option any team has in these playoffs, and there he was.


Bynum raised an arm, a 7-foot target, waving and calling for the ball. But, perhaps wanting to burn clock in the name of protecting the Lakers' six-point lead, Bryant looked elsewhere.

Bynum retreated to the corner. Ramon Sessions dribbled off the excess seconds. Then the big man tried again, this time with even more conviction, and got open again. With about 45 seconds left in the game. It was perfect, for an instant: deadly proximity to the hoop and an easy passing lane for Sessions. Bynum barked for the ball.

Andrew Bynum leads the league in looking exasperated. He is often seen as childish because of it. What's one lost chance? Nothing, really. The thing that happened to Bynum on that play happens to everybody. Grow up, kid.

But what happened on that play happens to Bynum a lot.


A few minutes later, Bynum posted up early in the possession, but didn't get the ball and was then doubled. He spun away from the double-team to the hoop, finding plenty of open space. A well-timed lob would have been deadly. Instead, Bryant shot a long, contested 3, which missed.





Its not surprising that ESPN front page headling reads Bynum vs Kobe, its sad that they word it that way but Abbots article paints a picture of a disgruntled worker

KB-Pau-DH2012
05-04-2012, 02:24 PM
These ESPN idiots love to make up ****.

They don't understand that you don't need to shoot everytime you get the ball in the post. You need to be patient and work your way inside-out.

Andrew is dominant in the post, but there are times when he gets doubled or tripled team and doesn't know how to get out of those traps. He's still learning but still being dominant (if that makes sense).


ESPN is trying to make an issue b/w Kobe and Bynum, but the truth is that both have a very close and strong relationship together since the All-Star break, when Bynum became a first time all-star and the guys had 3-4 days to themselves to increase their camraderie and brotherhood.


Yes Andrew is the key to Kobe's 6th title, and Kobe understands this. If they face a Miami in the finals, there is no one on that team that can touch Andrew Bynum. Kobe understands this and when the time comes, he will feed the beast to get that championship #6.

NoahH
05-04-2012, 02:48 PM
He plays with Kobe, obviously he doesn't get the ball enough :hide:

Cfrey
05-04-2012, 02:52 PM
LeBron, Pau and Bynum would win 10 championships

KB-Pau-DH2012
05-04-2012, 02:54 PM
LeBron, Pau and Bynum would win 10 championships

:laugh:

shep33
05-04-2012, 02:59 PM
Henry Abbot is a notorious Laker hater. He also despises Kobe.

MassoDio
05-04-2012, 02:59 PM
No he does not get the ball enough.

I don't think they need to drastically change their game plan or anything. What they are doing is obviously working.

However, Bynam is incredibly efficient, and any time your team can get more efficient shots, it benefits you. Having said that, there are many opportunities throughout the course of every Laker game, where he should get more touches simply for the reason that it would be the best basketball play.

shep33
05-04-2012, 03:01 PM
LeBron, Pau and Bynum would win 10 championships

A 26 year old Kobe teaming up with a top 5 player plus a top 3 PF would also kill everybody in the NBA.

MassoDio
05-04-2012, 03:03 PM
A 26 year old Kobe teaming up with a top 5 player plus a top 3 PF would also kill everybody in the NBA.

Yes...yes he would.

Cfrey
05-04-2012, 03:04 PM
A 26 year old Kobe teaming up with a top 5 player plus a top 3 PF would also kill everybody in the NBA.

nah... this is false....... imagine if Kobe could create like LeBron.. Bynum would be better than Dwight..

a defense anchored by LeBron and Bynum??

Not to mention that LeBron is by far and away a way greater defender than Kobe ever was?? yeah I'll take lebron and bynum any day of the ****ing week

KB-Pau-DH2012
05-04-2012, 03:05 PM
nah... this is false....... imagine if Kobe could create like LeBron.. Bynum would be better than Dwight..

a defense anchored by LeBron and Bynum??

Not to mention that LeBron is by far and away a way greater defender than Kobe ever was?? yeah I'll take lebron and bynum any day of the ****ing week

Wha wha wha wha whaaaaatttt? :speechless: :faint:

Cfrey
05-04-2012, 03:07 PM
thats not a ludicrous statement

Hawkeye15
05-04-2012, 03:08 PM
I don't think pumping the ball into Bynum for him to take more shots is the answer, unless the offense was changed to basically running plays for Bynum to get open more often with favorable matchups and deep position. The last thing you want to do is just give it to him to give it to him, meaning, if you are asking Bynum to take more shots, he will start forcing and get himself in trouble.

I have always wondered why the hell the Lakers become so perimeter oriented at times with their size advantage. But simply FORCING their height advantage isn't the answer either.

Cfrey
05-04-2012, 03:09 PM
And I'm not talking to anybody with a Kobe sig lmao..

no laker fan can have a legitimate non-biased conversation

shep33
05-04-2012, 03:12 PM
nah... this is false....... imagine if Kobe could create like LeBron.. Bynum would be better than Dwight..

a defense anchored by LeBron and Bynum??

Not to mention that LeBron is by far and away a way greater defender than Kobe ever was?? yeah I'll take lebron and bynum any day of the ****ing week

Last time I checked he won titles with Gasol and Odom as the second and third best players when he was just past his prime. Bynum was injured in all 3 of those finals runs. When he did play his effect wasn't significant and this is coming from someone who considers Drew their favorite Lakers.

tredigs
05-04-2012, 03:14 PM
These ESPN idiots love to make up ****.

They don't understand that you don't need to shoot everytime you get the ball in the post. You need to be patient and work your way inside-out.

Andrew is dominant in the post, but there are times when he gets doubled or tripled team and doesn't know how to get out of those traps. He's still learning but still being dominant (if that makes sense).


ESPN is trying to make an issue b/w Kobe and Bynum, but the truth is that both have a very close and strong relationship together since the All-Star break, when Bynum became a first time all-star and the guys had 3-4 days to themselves to increase their camraderie and brotherhood.


Yes Andrew is the key to Kobe's 6th title, and Kobe understands this. If they face a Miami in the finals, there is no one on that team that can touch Andrew Bynum. Kobe understands this and when the time comes, he will feed the beast to get that championship #6.

I'd say the truth lies somewhere in the middle of the ESPN articles take and this post (closer to this post). I swooped Bynum up in Fantasy in this years draft expecting ~20/12 out of him and he did not disappoint. I ended up watching most of the Laker games and couldn't stand his role in the offense early on in the season when he began to show massive improvements in passing/playing out or through the double team (honestly it was THIS year that he finally learned this, and it's easily the biggest reason for his improvement imo). At some nearing the All-Star break I think there was only two teams that he had over 15 field goal attempts in a game (and Kobe was averaging about 20% more FGA's than the next closest player in the entire league). That has shifted, though. Maybe the All Star nod and their time together there did subconsciously give Kobe a little more respect and result in more attempts.

Also, the real turn in his attempts began changing IMMEDIATELY after Sessions came into town. Kobe doesn't completely own the offense anymore, and that's the most important facet of that trade imo. Bynum's the scariest player on the team for the opposition though, their title hopes will run through him.

Hawkeye15
05-04-2012, 03:14 PM
why are we derailing a thread right off the bat with the Bron-Kobe ****? My god, who cares if you think Kobe at 27 meshes with the Heat or not, the question was whether or not the Lakers would be better off with Bynum getting more of the scoring load.

Cfrey
05-04-2012, 03:18 PM
why are we derailing a thread right off the bat with the Bron-Kobe ****? My god, who cares if you think Kobe at 27 meshes with the Heat or not, the question was whether or not the Lakers would be better off with Bynum getting more of the scoring load.

And I brought up LeBron because he would get the ball to Bynum the AMOUNT of times he DESERVES the ball a game.. KOBE DOES NOT DO THAT.. Thus that is why I mentioned LeBron because Bynum DOES not get the ball enough and I was tying him to a player that WOULD.

so indirectly answering the OPs original question..

tredigs
05-04-2012, 03:22 PM
And I brought up LeBron because he would get the ball to Bynum the AMOUNT of times he DESERVES the ball a game.. KOBE DOES NOT DO THAT.. Thus that is why I mentioned LeBron because Bynum DOES not get the ball enough and I was tying him to a player that WOULD.

so indirectly answering the OPs original question..

Well... that, and the fact that apparently you have a contractual agreement with Lebron's people to mention his name associated with greatness in every post you make.

I don't disagree with your post, but give it a rest. Change Lebron with James Harden. Boom, there ya go. Same point, no malice to the thread.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
05-04-2012, 03:22 PM
LeBron, Pau and Bynum would win 10 championships

I'd say 8

KB-Pau-DH2012
05-04-2012, 03:22 PM
And I brought up LeBron because he would get the ball to Bynum the AMOUNT of times he DESERVES the ball a game.. KOBE DOES NOT DO THAT.. Thus that is why I mentioned LeBron because Bynum DOES not get the ball enough and I was tying him to a player that WOULD.

so indirectly answering the OPs original question..

No, you derailed the question and made it into another Kobe vs LeBron debate.


You could have used Steve Nash as an example or Chris Paul (you know, prototypical pgs), but no, you decided to go the route of LeBron as if he's God or something.


We know exactly what you're trying to do, don't **** up this thread!

Lakersfan2483
05-04-2012, 03:24 PM
Yes, he gets the ball enough. In Game 1, he only attempted 7 shots, but that was because George Karl's strategy was to double and triple team him every time he touched the ball. He had a triple double that game. In game 2, Karl single covered him more and he put up 20 shot attempts and scored 27 pts. Shot attempts don't account for the times he touched the ball and was doubled and had to kick it out and or when he was fouled while having the ball in his grasp. My whole point is, you cannot simply look at shot attempts per game and say so and so isn't getting the ball enough. You have to factor in the way the defense is guarding a player, etc.... Phil Jackson used to point this out to the media countless times because they would ask why the ball didn't go inside more in said game........

*One thing a lot of these writers, and so called experts fail to mention is how many times Bynum touches the ball. He doesn't score every single time he touches the ball as often times he is doubled and so he passes the ball out. They simply look at box scores and look at shot attempts as opposed to digging deeper. The Lakers have made it a point of emphasis to feature Bynum this year even to the point that Pau has become the 3rd option.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
05-04-2012, 03:26 PM
I don't think pumping the ball into Bynum for him to take more shots is the answer, unless the offense was changed to basically running plays for Bynum to get open more often with favorable matchups and deep position. The last thing you want to do is just give it to him to give it to him, meaning, if you are asking Bynum to take more shots, he will start forcing and get himself in trouble.

I have always wondered why the hell the Lakers become so perimeter oriented at times with their size advantage. But simply FORCING their height advantage isn't the answer either.
this

GREATNESS ONE
05-04-2012, 03:26 PM
I'd say 8

:laugh2:

Sota4Ever
05-04-2012, 03:41 PM
I think Bynum still needs to improve his passing out of the double teams. I don't know if I am way off on this one, but watching some of the Lakers games he kind of gets confused when the double comes. Am I right or wrong laker fans??

Cfrey
05-04-2012, 03:51 PM
No, you derailed the question and made it into another Kobe vs LeBron debate.


You could have used Steve Nash as an example or Chris Paul (you know, prototypical pgs), but no, you decided to go the route of LeBron as if he's God or something.


We know exactly what you're trying to do, don't **** up this thread!

I don't think I derailed the thread. I didn't pay anybody to respond to me. I didn't force anybody to respond to me lol...

so if you guys wanna talk about derailing a thread then you should stop responding to my so called "lebron love" or "baiting ways"

Stinkyoutsider
05-04-2012, 04:02 PM
Bynum probably deserves to get the ball a little more but Kobe is the leader and the number 1 option on the team. Not only that, but the team has to work within the system to coaching staff set up. What if Mike Brown isn't calling plays where Bynum is the number 1 option or even to touch the ball (screening only).

I don't like Bynum's mental outlook so far though. He needs to be more professional and not have these mental slipups. The last thing I would want as a coach is to continue to get Bynum the ball, then when I call someone else's number out there, Bynum gets an attitude and doesn't play his hardest while on the court.

KB-Pau-DH2012
05-04-2012, 04:02 PM
I think Bynum still needs to improve his passing out of the double teams. I don't know if I am way off on this one, but watching some of the Lakers games he kind of gets confused when the double comes. Am I right or wrong laker fans??

You are right. That's his one weakness, not being able to pass out of double and triple teams. He gets confused and then ends up shuffling his feet and gets called for the travel.

kblo247
05-04-2012, 04:09 PM
Long story short, yes and no.

There are times where Bynum should get the ball but it is not a Kobe or Pau issue. Sometimes we get guys like Blake wasting clock and making dumb lobs or Sessions trying to push the pace. He should ideally get the ball the most when we sit Kobe and Pau in the second and fourth, same can be said for Pau when we sit Kobe and Drew down, but so,etimes the bench gets a little bit 3 happy and it was worse when we were playing Murphy and Glock.

Bynum also really needs to spend part of his summer after the German surgery watching tapes of Shaq to learn how to pass out the post. He has gotten better but he can be easily frustrated and force up bad shots which is why he averaged 20 attempts but shot in the 40s with Kobe out. A guy like Tex Winters would be huge in breaking it down to him, much like Tex broke the triangle down to a young Kobe who was coming into his own truly in 2001 and beginning to see doubles and triples.

As for the whole Kobe hold him back ****, sit your *** down. Bynums eFG, ts, fg, and defensive numbers are all better with Kobe than without and the same goes for Pau, Ron, and Ramon. They all feed off his attention, it isn't mutual offensively at all as Kobe shoots better without one of the bigs on the floor and always has as they take up so much space.

As for the LeBron ****. LMAO kid go troll another thread. If LeBron was a winner he would have you know got the job down or been to the dance more than he has. He was favored his last two years in cleveland and had hca throughout yet lost to the team he was supposed to beat. He choked last year after declaring he had already won while having a top 3 player in the league and one of the top PFs period. Stats are nice, but LeBron had never lived up to great expectations, Kobe has. Kobe said get me one all star caliber guy and if I don't win that is on me, they got him Pau, and he lost vs Boston and then said hey don't blame Pau or Lamar, blame me to the la media, which is a hell of alot better than people can go back to their lives now. Kobe took the youngest teams in the last two decades to three straight finals and won twice with Pau and Lamar as his second and third in the stronger west. Call me when LeBron actually mans up and shows up with it all on the line and can admit not winning with what he has on his team is a failed season

Cfrey
05-04-2012, 04:22 PM
okay thanks kblo for that wonderful insight

MassoDio
05-04-2012, 04:24 PM
Long story short, yes and no.

The best part of this post. Just because you proceed to tell a long story after it. lol :D

J4KOP99
05-04-2012, 04:25 PM
While I will definitely agree with the sentiment that Bynum still needs to improve his ability to pass out of the post and handle double/triple teams... some of it also has to be on the team and the lack of spacing in Brown's offense.

Us Lakers fans always love to bring up Shaq and his ability to handle double teams and pass out of the post, but we fail to mention Phil's obsession with spacing within the triangle offense. Spacing is the whole reason why the triangle works so well.

With Brown, you have more of a cluster**** within the offense and sometimes, Bynum gets caught on the baseline with 3 guys on the opposite side of the floor. Also, the Lakers current roster doesn't have too many reliable 3 point shooters. If they did, it's even harder to triple team the guy.


--But as for the Abbott story, I think a lot of it is an exaggeration. Kobe definitely looks for Bynum and the Lakers have clearly made it a point to pound the ball down low. With that said, Kobe still tends to withdraw himself from the offense at times, but for the most part, he makes a conscious effort to get Bynum and Pau their touches down low.

J4KOP99
05-04-2012, 04:27 PM
The best part of this post. Just because you proceed to tell a long story after it. lol :D

you watch the south park episode from this season about zip-lining?

"and... so, long story short"

JasonJohnHorn
05-04-2012, 04:28 PM
He needs to get more shots, and Kobe needs to learn to be a facilitator at this point in his career. The impressive thing about Jordan wasn't that he could score 32 points a game, it was that he could score 32 points a game and get 7 or 8 assists at the same time, and still let Pippen bring the ball up half the time.

To be a great as Jordan, Kobe needs to learn how to share the ball and create for his teammates. Twice in his career Jordan gave the championship winning shot to another player, once to Paxson, once to Kerr. He knew when to pass. Kobe does not. He's too busy looking for his own shot.

championships
05-04-2012, 04:41 PM
And I brought up LeBron because he would get the ball to Bynum the AMOUNT of times he DESERVES the ball a game.. KOBE DOES NOT DO THAT.. Thus that is why I mentioned LeBron because Bynum DOES not get the ball enough and I was tying him to a player that WOULD.

so indirectly answering the OPs original question..

Really!?!

Bynum w/o Kobe shot 46.7 % 1.306 points per shot 14.14 rebounds

Bynum with Kobe, shot 57.6% 1.432 points per shot 11.50 rebounds

Looks to me that Bynum gets the ball in more favorable positions when Kobe is in the game.

You just have a blind opinion and have no facts.

MassoDio
05-04-2012, 04:42 PM
you watch the south park episode from this season about zip-lining?

"and... so, long story short"

No...but I am going to have to watch it now.

Bruno
05-04-2012, 04:52 PM
Interesting that you posted this Chronz, because you come from the camp that he gets it too much at the expense of Gasol, if my memory serves me correctly. I recall you mentioning in the past that Bynum as the third option, defensive anchor seemed to possibly benefit the lakers the most?

anyone who watches enough Laker games knows that Bynum struggles with passing out of the post and dealing with doubles. against Denver, he has been doubled more than bryant. that's why his looks are down, thats why he's focusing on dominating the defense, just like Phil told him to. his doubles has allow Bryant to be more efficient. this is the first playoff series since Shaq was in LA that Bryant is receiving the bulk of the single coverage (that i can recall of). bryants numbers against single coverage/not being the focus of the defense speak for themselves. (PER of above 32.0 through two games, WS/48 above .300)

championships
05-04-2012, 04:57 PM
You would think the Lakers are struggling and down 0-2 reading this article.

J4KOP99
05-04-2012, 05:07 PM
No...but I am going to have to watch it now.

I'll warn you right now though, the last 10 minutes suck.

Raph12
05-04-2012, 05:47 PM
Kobe should get 20, Bynum should get 15 and the same goes for Pau... Bynum has a lot of his looks created for him and isn't a great option when outside of the paint as they usually double and he struggles to create a play at that point.

MassoDio
05-04-2012, 05:59 PM
I'll warn you right now though, the last 10 minutes suck.

Thanks for the warning. Maybe I will only watch the first 20 minutes. lol

kblo247
05-04-2012, 06:12 PM
He needs to get more shots, and Kobe needs to learn to be a facilitator at this point in his career. The impressive thing about Jordan wasn't that he could score 32 points a game, it was that he could score 32 points a game and get 7 or 8 assists at the same time, and still let Pippen bring the ball up half the time.

To be a great as Jordan, Kobe needs to learn how to share the ball and create for his teammates. Twice in his career Jordan gave the championship winning shot to another player, once to Paxson, once to Kerr. He knew when to pass. Kobe does not. He's too busy looking for his own shot.

Really! Not sure if serious at all?

Kobe has been the facilitator of 5 title and 7 finals teams. MJ was the main facilitator of 0, as Scottie did that job, and in his second 3 peat his assist numbers were down worse than Kobe's ever have been. The only guy who has facilitated as many titles teams as Kobe is Magic point blank, so no need to rewrite history

KB-Pau-DH2012
05-04-2012, 06:20 PM
Really! Not sure if serious at all?

Kobe has been the facilitator of 5 title and 7 finals teams. MJ was the main facilitator of 0, as Scottie did that job, and in his second 3 peat his assist numbers were down worse than Kobe's ever have been. The only guy who has facilitated as many titles teams as Kobe is Magic point blank, so no need to rewrite history

During MJ's second 3-peat, his assist numbers were even more down because he actually had not one, but two facilitators in Scottie and Ron Harper.


To be fair, only for Kobe's first title run in 2000, he shared some of the facilitating responsibilities with Ron Harper. He learned from Harp that one year and then in 2001, the Lakers' 2nd title run, Kobe was the unquestioned sole facilitator of the ball club from there on out ('01 was Harper's last season, but he was on his last legs coming off the bench to back up Fish).

fresh prince
05-04-2012, 06:27 PM
nah... this is false....... imagine if Kobe could create l

Not to mention that LeBron is by far and away a way greater defender than Kobe ever was?? yeah I'll take lebron and bynum any day of the ****ing week

bahahahahahahahaha!@!!!

UPRock
05-04-2012, 07:00 PM
Does Bynum get the ball enough? No, with Kobe in your team nobody does.

shep33
05-04-2012, 07:54 PM
You know what's interesting? Bynum actually posts better stats with Kobe playing.

Chronz
05-04-2012, 08:33 PM
Damn it didnt take long for the comparisons to start, keep it on subject here now.


I found it interesting that Kobes scoring gos down more than Bynums when the other isnt on the floor, to me that suggest that Kobe atleast tries to tone it down more for Bynum. I think the guy who really needs more touches is Pau.

Chronz
05-04-2012, 08:34 PM
You know what's interesting? Bynum actually posts better stats with Kobe playing.

Which stats?

MickeyMgl
05-04-2012, 08:36 PM
In the article, Abbott cites a play in which Bryant didn't hit Bynum on a pick and roll.



Minutes later, he picked for Bryant on the right side. Both defenders stayed glued to the living embodiment of the term "shooting guard." Uncovered, Bynum rolled to the hoop smelling a dunk. But he never got the ball. Even sandwiched between Arron Afflalo and McGee, Bryant fired away, drawing a foul. Alone at the rim, Bynum jumped to catch Bryant's shot, perhaps thinking it was a pass. After it fell through the net, Lakers ran to congratulate Bryant on the and-one. Bynum hung his head.

I went back and looked at this play. McGee never totally left Bynum, playing between Andrew and Kobe. All four players were close together. Plus, Henry, in his zeal to find a play that illustrates how Kobe is such a shooting guard, apparently didn't notice Ty Lawson drop to cut off a potential bounce pass to Bynum.

McGee had the lob covered. Lawson had the bounce pass covered. If Henry Abbott saw a passing angle on that play, he's got better court vision than Magic Johnson. He's a moron.

MickeyMgl
05-04-2012, 08:38 PM
Which stats?

FG%, for one.

Chronz
05-04-2012, 08:53 PM
FG%, for one.

So you think that outweighs the gains in rate of scoring and fta? I honestly dont think its much of a difference, Bynum is Bynum. Same with Kobe, you would expect a loss of efficiency with an uptick in usage. If his stats are better its honestly not by much IMO.

MickeyMgl
05-04-2012, 08:58 PM
I found it interesting that Kobes scoring gos down more than Bynums when the other isnt on the floor, to me that suggest that Kobe atleast tries to tone it down more for Bynum. I think the guy who really needs more touches is Pau.

Kobe's scoring numbers and FG% goes down when Bynum is IN the game. They go up when Bynum is on the bench. Kobe's absence has the reverse effect on Bynum. (Well, more points but lower efficiency.)

I agree about Pau.

Marco22
05-04-2012, 09:05 PM
Be careful! One day Bynum will be the man and it's gonna happen sooner then people think.

Chronz
05-04-2012, 09:12 PM
Kobe's scoring numbers and FG% goes down when Bynum is IN the game. They go up when Bynum is on the bench. Kobe's absence has the reverse effect on Bynum. (Well, more points but lower efficiency.)

I agree about Pau.

Thats true, the opposite has been true the last few years tho. Wonder whats so different this year.

MickeyMgl
05-04-2012, 09:14 PM
No he does not get the ball enough.

I don't think they need to drastically change their game plan or anything. What they are doing is obviously working.

However, Bynam is incredibly efficient, and any time your team can get more efficient shots, it benefits you. Having said that, there are many opportunities throughout the course of every Laker game, where he should get more touches simply for the reason that it would be the best basketball play.

Tyson Chandler is very efficient, too. You think the Knicks should get him the ball more?

There's a reason Bynum's so efficient. He's a great finisher. Unfortunately, there's only so many times you can lob the ball up to the rim for a dunk. In the post, he's good but not great. He finished as the 2nd most efficient post player on the Lakers (to Gasol), and most of the season was 3rd (behind Gasol and Bryant). It becomes worse when you factor in how horrendous he is against double teams. His court vision is very poor. He finished the season ranked 398th in assist/turnover ratio.

The result is that if you know the opponent is going to double team him, and he is going to struggle to get the ball out safely without committing a turnover, then continuing to feed the ball in to him becomes like driving into the same dead end repeatedly. Ideally, a good offensive player that draws double teams will be able to pass out of those double teams to set up teammates. Gasol does this well. Contrary to popular belief, Bryant does this well. Bynum does not do this well.

Where Bynum dominates is on "cut" plays, which include those lobs. He averages 1.54 points per possession on those plays, 5th best in the league.

shep33
05-04-2012, 09:21 PM
So you think that outweighs the gains in rate of scoring and fta? I honestly dont think its much of a difference, Bynum is Bynum. Same with Kobe, you would expect a loss of efficiency with an uptick in usage. If his stats are better its honestly not by much IMO.

In the games that Kobe missed he shot 46.7% and that includes a 12-14 performance against the Warriors who didn't have anyone near 7 feet guarding him. Overall that's nearly 10% lower from the field with Kobe not playing with him.

With Kobe he also put in his best offensive showings of the season. I've watched pretty much every Laker game, and Kobe gets Drew a lot of cleaner looks just due to his presence on the court. When Kobe stepped out, teams just doubled him constantly.

kblo247
05-04-2012, 09:22 PM
Which stats?

Take in mind these stats are a little dated as they cover to when Kobe was out before returning vs San Antonio

Fg% of Kobe and Pau without Andrew in his suspended games

Kobe's shooting
11-23
10-24
8-17
10-17
10-16
--------
49-97 = 50.5%

Pau in those games
6-14
7-12
6-11
7-12
11-20
-----------
37-69 = 53.6%


-----
Fga and fg% without Kobe for that stretch of games Kobe missed

BYNUM
21.4 FGA
41% FG%

GASOL
19.4 FGA
46% FG%
-----

Ts% with and without Kobe for the season as a whole

Bynum (w/ Kobe): 61.8 TS% (amazing)
Bynum (w/o Kobe): 55.4 TS%
Gasol (w/ Kobe): 55.6 TS%
Gasol (w/o Kobe): 52.4 TS%
Sessions (w/ Kobe): 63.8 TS% (amazing)
Sessions (w/o Kobe): 54.7 TS%
Artest (w/ Kobe): 47.5 TS%
Artest (w/o Kobe): 47.8 TS%
Kobe w/ Bynum: 50.9 TS%
Kobe w/o Bynum: 55.9 TS%
Kobe w/ Gasol: 52.2 TS%
Kobe w/o Gasol: 55.3 TS%

Efg% for the season as a whole when Kobe is on and off the floor

Kobe w Bynum - 44.4%
Kobe wo Bynum - 49.0%
Bynum w Kobe - 58.1%
Bynum wo Kobe - 52.0%
Kobe w Pau - 46.1%
Kobe wo Pau - 47.5%
Pau w Kobe - 51.3%
Pau wo Kobe - 48.8 %
Kobe w Sessions - 49.7%
Kobe wo Sessions - 38.5%
Sessions w Kobe - 60.0%
Sessions wo Kobe - 50.3%
Kobe with MWP - 45.2%
Kobe wo MWP - 47.2%
MWP w Kobe - 45.5%

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/2264/efgcompared.png

STATS CUBE

MickeyMgl
05-04-2012, 09:25 PM
Thats true, the opposite has been true the last few years tho. Wonder whats so different this year.

:eyebrow:
No Triangle?

Brown's so-called "offense" relies a lot on isolation, and for that, you need space. The Triple Post did a lot for keeping players properly spaced, so that you could have bigs on the floor without them getting in Bryant's way. Just a guess, though.

Chronz
05-04-2012, 09:26 PM
Take in mind these stats are a little dated as they cover to when Kobe was out before returning vs San Antonio

Fg% of Kobe and Pau without Andrew in his suspended games


In the games that Kobe missed he shot 46.7% and that includes a 12-14 performance against the Warriors who didn't have anyone near 7 feet guarding him. Overall that's nearly 10% lower from the field with Kobe not playing with him.
Thats also a limited sample set, if you look at the #'s over the entire season and the last few years, the #'s are much different.


With Kobe he also put in his best offensive showings of the season. I've watched pretty much every Laker game, and Kobe gets Drew a lot of cleaner looks just due to his presence on the court. When Kobe stepped out, teams just doubled him constantly.

Ive seen those same games, I dont see much of a difference.

kblo247
05-04-2012, 09:32 PM
I wasn't finished with the long winded post man, my finger just slipped lol

the point I'm raising is simple, Kobe draws defensive attention that gives Pau and Andrew room to work and be open or go one on one. It is rare for Pau and Andrew to give Kobe that same benefit for prolonged periods, in fact, Phil didn't play both because they shrunk the floor and offered poor spacing for Kobe to drive and attack. It is give and take. Kobe gives his bigs the ability to go one on one and get easy shots, and in turn he has to give up his own driving lanes and operating space. The bigs give Kobe defensive help and rebounding, in turn they give up the chance to be 20fga per game guys. That said Kobe has found a balance as Pau still shoots how much he did in Memphis and Andrew shoots as much as Dwight does

If there was something at the writer should point out it would be that Matt and Blake hitting threes makes Kobe, Pau, and Drew untouchable

MickeyMgl
05-04-2012, 09:34 PM
I don't think pumping the ball into Bynum for him to take more shots is the answer, unless the offense was changed to basically running plays for Bynum to get open more often with favorable matchups and deep position. The last thing you want to do is just give it to him to give it to him, meaning, if you are asking Bynum to take more shots, he will start forcing and get himself in trouble.

That seems to be exactly what has happened with the Lakers this season. Despite Gasol being the most efficient post player they have - and for most of the season, Bryant second - Bynum has consistently gotten the most post opportunities while Gasol has been moved to the perimeter. Brown said that getting the ball to Bynum was a big part of what was discussed in his job interview.

MickeyMgl
05-04-2012, 09:47 PM
I think Bynum still needs to improve his passing out of the double teams. I don't know if I am way off on this one, but watching some of the Lakers games he kind of gets confused when the double comes. Am I right or wrong laker fans??

100% right. Very poor court vision. He gets discombobulated by double teams. Ranked 398th in assist/turnover. He's a good post player, ONE ON ONE. His inability to handle doubles limits how often he should touch the ball. Mostly, he's a great finisher. Good hands, long arms, finishes plays with authority. In the post, only "very good".

shep33
05-04-2012, 10:04 PM
Thats also a limited sample set, if you look at the #'s over the entire season and the last few years, the #'s are much different.


Ive seen those same games, I dont see much of a difference.

I dunno, to me I think Kobe typically gives him a lob or two a game. Plus Kobe takes away double teams towards Drew.

Teeboy1487
05-04-2012, 10:15 PM
Drew is efficient but he is not ready to be a number one option just yet until he figure out how to handle double teams. When Kobe was out, he took poor shots against double teams. I think Bynum gets a good amount of touches. Gasol is the one who does not get enough touches.

MickeyMgl
05-04-2012, 10:17 PM
Also relevant to this question, beyond perceived efficiency, is how important is it that Bynum score, or even shoot, compared to him applying his energies toward other responsibilities.

I isolated a few of his stats, and adding 15% to each per-game average

When he scores at least 22 points, the Lakers are 10-5.
When he has at least 15 FGA, the Lakers are 14-7.
When he grabs 14 rebounds, the Lakers are 16-5.
When he gets at least 2 blocks, the Lakers are 22-16.

Bynum's scoring doesn't appear to have as significant an impact on the Lakers' record as his rebounding. Too often this season, he has appeared more focused on the offensive end than the defensive end.

For contrast, when Bryant scores at least 32 points, the Lakers are 13-4. The team's fortunes ARE tied to his scoring.

Even better, when Bynum gets at least 14 rebounds and 1 block, the Lakers are 13-3. Doesn't seem like too much to ask.

The same should be done for Gasol, but I've spent too long on this already.

topdog
05-04-2012, 10:19 PM
If he has a foot in the paint and someone on his back, you get it to him. You also get Pau some shots at the elbow and make sure those 2 stay tuned in to what's happening on the floor.

MickeyMgl
05-04-2012, 10:22 PM
I wasn't finished with the long winded post man, my finger just slipped lol

the point I'm raising is simple, Kobe draws defensive attention that gives Pau and Andrew room to work and be open or go one on one. It is rare for Pau and Andrew to give Kobe that same benefit for prolonged periods

I think Pau does. His game is much more polished than Bynum's, and he appeared to step up his game when Bryant was absent. His passing means that you can run the offense through him more than they have done. I'll echo what has been said a few times in this thread, that the discussion should be about Gasol and not Bynum.

Sactown
05-05-2012, 03:07 AM
The offense should be run through Pau, he's the best passer on the team, can hit the 15 footer and most important, is willing to pass and isn't going to force anything

5ass
05-05-2012, 03:15 AM
The offense should be run through Pau, he's the best passer on the team, can hit the 15 footer and most important, is willing to pass and isn't going to force anything

exactly.

C-Style
05-05-2012, 03:53 AM
IF the article was praising Kobe it would immediately be asked to be moved to Lakers forum but since it wants to put Kobe in a negative light, everyone wants to take a stab at it.

C-Style
05-05-2012, 03:54 AM
The offense should be run through Pau, he's the best passer on the team, can hit the 15 footer and most important, is willing to pass and isn't going to force anything

better passer then Kobe? yeah Okay ;)

TmacBryant
05-05-2012, 05:50 AM
nah... this is false....... imagine if Kobe could create like LeBron.. Bynum would be better than Dwight..

a defense anchored by LeBron and Bynum??

Not to mention that LeBron is by far and away a way greater defender than Kobe ever was?? yeah I'll take lebron and bynum any day of the ****ing week

at 26-28 years old kobe could guard anybody in the league including Lebron. I'd take Kobe in his prime over Lebron in his any day.