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kjoke
05-01-2012, 06:20 PM
For someone who hasn't been a fan for that long of a time (started watching in '02), can someone explain how Jordan's game was after he turned 30. Looking at his numbers, he still was as good as ever. Did he lose a step? Did he look old? How did he refine his game?

netsgiantsyanks
05-01-2012, 06:24 PM
he's ****ing michael jordan.

netsgiantsyanks
05-01-2012, 06:28 PM
all joking aside, he retired in 93 when he was 30, and returned in 95. and then, the 3 peat happened.

netsgiantsyanks
05-01-2012, 06:28 PM
idk much more, i wasn't born then.

C_Mund
05-01-2012, 06:36 PM
He worked on his post game. Instead of driving all the time he'd post up ten feet from the hoop and was completely unstoppable with the turnaround J.
...not that he couldn't dunk or anything, but he did lost a step. He just couldn't be guarded from the mid-post

Kevj77
05-01-2012, 06:41 PM
I saw his whole career. At 30 he was still the best player by far in the NBA. Jordan could still play way above the rim. He had lost a step perhaps, but by this time he had already mastered the mid-range fade away and was unstoppable.

The biggest difference was defensively, although he was still an elite defender Phil Jackson didn't ask him to expend as much energy defensively as during the first 3-peat. During the first 3-peat Jordan and Pippen relentlessly applied full court press on opposing teams, which Phil Jackon called releasing the "Dobermans". The Bulls still used this at times, but not like during the first 3-peat.

kntresistheheat
05-01-2012, 06:42 PM
Let's just say, He was and still is the best player ever! His J was unstoppable along with his fade away. (Horrible owner)

smiddy012
05-01-2012, 06:45 PM
He also added a pretty good 3pointer late in his career, something he didn't really have at all early in his career.

smiddy012
05-01-2012, 06:46 PM
When exactly did MJ stop being the best player in the league? Once the Bulls were disbanded?

C_Mund
05-01-2012, 06:50 PM
When exactly did MJ stop being the best player in the league? Once the Bulls were disbanded?

After his last title in '98. Even though there were super athletic younger players coming up, Jordan's mentality wouldn't have let anybody finish ahead. He was still awesome when he came back after that retirement as well, I'm pretty sure he put up back-to-back 50 point games as a member of the Wizards and averaged over 22 points

Rain City
05-01-2012, 06:51 PM
Jordan was one of the most athletic players in the NBA until about his 3rd championship.....After that he was no longer a top tier athlete in the NBA but he was every bit as dangerous because he had a couple unstoppable post up moves, his savy was the best in the league and his will to win was 2nd to none.

NYY 26 to 7
05-01-2012, 06:57 PM
As others said and as a Knicks fan I can say that his midrange game was unreal. Today I guess he would be called a ball stopper but as he aged he posted up elbow extended and had the best fade away midrange jumper ever. The guy like never missed. He evolved from the slasher he was as a young player to the jump shooter he was later in his career. He was by far the best when he hung them up and these days LeBron and Kobe aren't even close to the player Jordan was - not even close. If he didn't retire it would have been 8-10 straight championships.

RaiderLakersA's
05-01-2012, 06:57 PM
all joking aside, he retired in 93 when he was 30, and returned in 95. and then, the 3 peat happened.

This made me laugh. Thanks, young fella! :D

Yes, the second Bulls 3-peat run started the second season after Michael returned from his hiatus, if memory serves.

Jordan was around 32 or 33 during the first championship of the second repeat. Because of the time off (and no, I don't consider playing baseball minors as a physically draining endeavor) he looked much refreshed, although Jordan will probably tell you himself that he was starting to feel the effects of age and wear and tear of the long NBA seasons compounded by the deep playoff runs year in and year out.

By the the final championship in 1998, anyone who had avidly watched Michael's career will tell you that he clearly lost several steps (for him). He was mortal, best evinced by the signature play of the '98 Finals.

In his prime Jordan would not have had any problems shaking and breaking Bryon Russell. Hell, he would have destroyed the entire Jazz squad to jam the ball home.

That's no slight against Russell. He, too, was one of the league's better defenders at that time. Nevertheless, instead of juking Russell out of his high tops and driving the lane, Jordan wound up pushing off the defender for the now classic game winning jumpshot.

We all knew the ball was going in the basket, as inexorable as the earth circling the sun. But we also knew in that instant that MJ was no longer Superman.

In fact we had known for a few seasons at that point, as Jordan had changed his game years prior in order to dominate the ball in other ways. The great ones always do.

Go_NUGGETS
05-01-2012, 07:02 PM
He looked old for the Wizards.

When he came back from his retirement, he had a turn around jumper and fadeaway that was clean. Dude could just do everything.

Any kind of turnaround manuever you can think of--he could do, which opened up lots of other things for his game. Thats why Jordan always turned his back to whoever was guarding him, because he could spin on you and take it to the hole--or spin on you and stop midway and hit the midrang jumper...Or he could do a turn around shot from three point range. His ability to hit shots from consistently from different ranges, made him great.

redwhitenblue
05-01-2012, 07:03 PM
I think draining the Championship winning bucket with a step back jumper is still rather super-hero esque. Regardless of if he got away with a push off (which is hilarious, watch today's game and Jordan's 'push off' was nothing compared to what Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Melo get away with). Defenses could also do a lot more back in that time.


Jordan lost a step in the 2nd 3 peat, but he was unstoppable because regardless of what he had falling and what he was struggling with, he always had more moves to pull out.

Go_NUGGETS
05-01-2012, 07:04 PM
Plus, he had big *** hands, and could handle the ball with ease.

JasonJohnHorn
05-01-2012, 07:09 PM
He got a really good post up game, and a great fade-away, and most of all, learned to trust his teammates. Well, Scottie Pippen at least. Before that Jordan was certainly more explosive, and scored a lot more, but he dominated the ball he, like any player, was not good enough to do it alone. Once he learned to let Pippen bring the ball up sometimes, and work off the ball, and got that fade-away down with a sweet post game, he was far more effective than he was when he first came into the league. Of course these changes started in his late twenties.

mustaine
05-01-2012, 07:14 PM
I think draining the Championship winning bucket with a step back jumper is still rather super-hero esque. Regardless of if he got away with a push off (which is hilarious, watch today's game and Jordan's 'push off' was nothing compared to what Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Melo get away with). Defenses could also do a lot more back in that time.


Jordan lost a step in the 2nd 3 peat, but he was unstoppable because regardless of what he had falling and what he was struggling with, he always had more moves to pull out.

Yeah, his footwork and body control was unreal, it seemed that anytime a defender thought he had him he'd pull a new rabbit out of the hat. He might have lost a step as he got older but he more that made up for it in other ways. He just adjusted, his basketball IQ was through the roof and his will to win was verging on psychotic.

And I think that the three last plays of his Bulls career (two baskets and a steal) in 1998 show that the man was still pretty much unstoppable at that point and nobody was going to deny him his title.

The Final Boss
05-01-2012, 07:16 PM
He's overrated, but it isn't his fault. He was a superior athlete during an era with no athletes.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
05-01-2012, 07:21 PM
This made me laugh. Thanks, young fella! :D

Yes, the second Bulls 3-peat run started the second season after Michael returned from his hiatus, if memory serves.

Jordan was around 32 or 33 during the first championship of the second repeat. Because of the time off (and no, I don't consider playing baseball minors as a physically draining endeavor) he looked much refreshed, although Jordan will probably tell you himself that he was starting to feel the effects of age and wear and tear of the long NBA seasons compounded by the deep playoff runs year in and year out.

By the the final championship in 1998, anyone who had avidly watched Michael's career will tell you that he clearly lost several steps (for him). He was mortal, best evinced by the signature play of the '98 Finals.

In his prime Jordan would not have had any problems shaking and breaking Bryon Russell. Hell, he would have destroyed the entire Jazz squad to jam the ball home.

That's no slight against Russell. He, too, was one of the league's better defenders at that time. Nevertheless, instead of juking Russell out of his high tops and driving the lane, Jordan wound up pushing off the defender for the now classic game winning jumpshot.

We all knew the ball was going in the basket, as inexorable as the earth circling the sun. But we also knew in that instant that MJ was no longer Superman.

In fact we had known for a few seasons at that point, as Jordan had changed his game years prior in order to dominate the ball in other ways. The great ones always do.

Bryon Russell said himself that Jordan didn't push him.

smiddy012
05-01-2012, 07:21 PM
He's overrated, but it isn't his fault. He was a superior athlete during an era with no athletes.

Yes, calling him the GOAT is an overstatement :facepalm:

Oh and today's game was better than the 80s & 90s :facepalm:

AIMelo=KillaDUO
05-01-2012, 07:21 PM
5 championships, 3 MVP's.

Da Knicks
05-01-2012, 07:23 PM
As others said and as a Knicks fan I can say that his midrange game was unreal. Today I guess he would be called a ball stopper but as he aged he posted up elbow extended and had the best fade away midrange jumper ever. The guy like never missed. He evolved from the slasher he was as a young player to the jump shooter he was later in his career. He was by far the best when he hung them up and these days LeBron and Kobe aren't even close to the player Jordan was - not even close. If he didn't retire it would have been 8-10 straight championships.

Pretty much this, his post up game was unstoppable.

smiddy012
05-01-2012, 07:24 PM
Best mid-range game, best fade away, best around the rim, best overall player of all time. Great passer, could very well be the best shooter of all time. Best post-up SG of all time, maybe defender also.

smiddy012
05-01-2012, 07:28 PM
5 championships, 3 MVP's.

???

6 rings, 6 finals MVPs, 5 MVPs

Oh and 14 All-Stars (1985–1993, 1996–1998, 2002–2003) to boot. And he would have been one the years he was retired also.

Reversed86Curse
05-01-2012, 07:33 PM
He's overrated, but it isn't his fault. He was a superior athlete during an era with no athletes.

There may not have been as many superior athletes as there are today, but Jordan had to play in an era where there were superior defenders compared to today and fewer rules prohibiting defensive play. Half of the 'stars' today would be hard pressed to put up the same level of play if they were put in that era, but I can say with a high level of confidence that most of the stars from the 90's would at the very least equal their level of play against today's players.

Gootie42
05-01-2012, 07:39 PM
???

6 rings, 6 finals MVPs, 5 MVPs

Oh and 14 All-Stars (19851993, 19961998, 20022003) to boot. And he would have been one the years he was retired also.

He meant after Jordan turned 30, I think.

Oldmantrash
05-01-2012, 07:40 PM
He was still better than Kobe or Lebron at age 35.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
05-01-2012, 07:42 PM
???

6 rings, 6 finals MVPs, 5 MVPs

Oh and 14 All-Stars (19851993, 19961998, 20022003) to boot. And he would have been one the years he was retired also.

after 30 bruh.

Ezio
05-01-2012, 07:46 PM
Arguably one of the best post players.

smiddy012
05-01-2012, 07:58 PM
after 30 bruh.

Ugh, :facepalm:.

smiddy012
05-01-2012, 08:00 PM
He was still better than Kobe or Lebron at age 35.

Not too sure about this one... but it's certainly debatable.

The Final Boss
05-01-2012, 08:07 PM
Not too sure about this one... but it's certainly debatable.

Put the Michael Jordan's down and walk away very slowly... No sudden movements.

MickeyMgl
05-01-2012, 08:12 PM
For someone who hasn't been a fan for that long of a time (started watching in '02), can someone explain how Jordan's game was after he turned 30. Looking at his numbers, he still was as good as ever. Did he lose a step? Did he look old? How did he refine his game?

After he returned from his first retirement, the NBA seemed very grateful, giving him every call and every award, whether or not he deserved it.

smiddy012
05-01-2012, 08:17 PM
After he returned from his first retirement, the NBA seemed very grateful, giving him every call and every award, whether or not he deserved it.

Refs didn't suck MJ's **** half as well as they do Lebron's today.

NoahH
05-01-2012, 08:20 PM
I don't remember Michael Jordan over his horrible ownership and managing skills

smiddy012
05-01-2012, 08:23 PM
I don't remember Michael Jordan over his horrible ownership and managing skills

I don't remember Lebron over his decision or Delonte West.

Chronz
05-01-2012, 08:27 PM
This made me laugh. Thanks, young fella! :D

Yes, the second Bulls 3-peat run started the second season after Michael returned from his hiatus, if memory serves.

Jordan was around 32 or 33 during the first championship of the second repeat. Because of the time off (and no, I don't consider playing baseball minors as a physically draining endeavor) he looked much refreshed, although Jordan will probably tell you himself that he was starting to feel the effects of age and wear and tear of the long NBA seasons compounded by the deep playoff runs year in and year out.

By the the final championship in 1998, anyone who had avidly watched Michael's career will tell you that he clearly lost several steps (for him). He was mortal, best evinced by the signature play of the '98 Finals.

In his prime Jordan would not have had any problems shaking and breaking Bryon Russell. Hell, he would have destroyed the entire Jazz squad to jam the ball home.

That's no slight against Russell. He, too, was one of the league's better defenders at that time. Nevertheless, instead of juking Russell out of his high tops and driving the lane, Jordan wound up pushing off the defender for the now classic game winning jumpshot.

We all knew the ball was going in the basket, as inexorable as the earth circling the sun. But we also knew in that instant that MJ was no longer Superman.

In fact we had known for a few seasons at that point, as Jordan had changed his game years prior in order to dominate the ball in other ways. The great ones always do.

Your gonna get alot of flak for that but its true, MJ in his final days was no longer superman, he was more like prime Kobe by then.

Chronz
05-01-2012, 08:30 PM
Bryon Russell said himself that Jordan didn't push him.
I dont believe that, it was a push off but people make it seem like he needed it to create the space, MJ had already crossed him and BR wasnt going to recover. His momentum carried him and the hand movement makes the pushoff look devastating.

Chronz
05-01-2012, 08:31 PM
There may not have been as many superior athletes as there are today, but Jordan had to play in an era where there were superior defenders compared to today and fewer rules prohibiting defensive play. Half of the 'stars' today would be hard pressed to put up the same level of play if they were put in that era, but I can say with a high level of confidence that most of the stars from the 90's would at the very least equal their level of play against today's players.

Not true, defenses were only getting better, the rules were put in place because they were getting TOO dominant. All those rules did is put the game back on a comparable scale to MJ's heyday.

jam
05-01-2012, 09:11 PM
Jordan was one of the most athletic players in the NBA until about his 3rd championship.....After that he was no longer a top tier athlete in the NBA but he was every bit as dangerous because he had a couple unstoppable post up moves, his savy was the best in the league and his will to win was 2nd to none.

Jordan obviously remained a top tier athlete in his early thirties. But his vertical probably dropped from around 41" to between 35" and 37," and he wasn't as fast meaning he no longer had a 4.4 40.

His basketball IQ however was off the charts, he still had a crazy wingspan, enormous hands, great hops, good speed, and outstanding strength for a guard. His skillset of course was unequaled before during or since.

And then there was, his fadeaway....(insert youtube vid and or gifs here).

jam
05-01-2012, 09:14 PM
Your gonna get alot of flak for that but its true, MJ in his final days was no longer superman, he was more like prime Kobe by then.

No, there were still key differences. Jordan had much bigger hands, a superior wingspan, was slightly taller, a bit faster, a bit stronger, and jumped higher.

Kobe is pretty much out of knee cartilage by now, whereas jordan had no cartilage deterioration even during his wizards comeback.

Watching kobe play these days is like watching lebron play in slo-mo. The skillset is extraordinary, but kobe is doing it based on savvy and skill; the gap between kobe and the top athletes in the league right now is vast.

jam
05-01-2012, 09:16 PM
Refs didn't suck MJ's **** half as well as they do Lebron's today.

This is completely inaccurate: Jordan had complete free rein to abuse referees in a manner never before seen.

jam
05-01-2012, 09:20 PM
There may not have been as many superior athletes as there are today, but Jordan had to play in an era where there were superior defenders compared to today and fewer rules prohibiting defensive play. Half of the 'stars' today would be hard pressed to put up the same level of play if they were put in that era, but I can say with a high level of confidence that most of the stars from the 90's would at the very least equal their level of play against today's players.

I have to acknowledge the rampant effects of steroid use today in the nba, but nonetheless, jordan played in an era which has never been equaled in terms of talented big men: drob, shaq, hakeem, patrick, alonzo, etc. Jordan completely abused these guys.

lakersfan01
05-01-2012, 09:31 PM
Let me put it this way. Kobe Bryant's name isn't worthy of being in the same sentence as. New sentence. Michael Jordan.

lakersfan01
05-01-2012, 09:33 PM
No, there were still key differences. Jordan had much bigger hands, a superior wingspan, was slightly taller, a bit faster, a bit stronger, and jumped higher.

Kobe is pretty much out of knee cartilage by now, whereas jordan had no cartilage deterioration even during his wizards comeback.

Watching kobe play these days is like watching lebron play in slo-mo. The skillset is extraordinary, but kobe is doing it based on savvy and skill; the gap between kobe and the top athletes in the league right now is vast.

I'm glad somebody sees it. Good post, I agree 100%.

RaiderLakersA's
05-01-2012, 09:40 PM
Bryon Russell said himself that Jordan didn't push him.

I can assure you when it happened Bryon did not say it wasn't a push. Several years later, after Jordan and he had formed a solid friendship BR said that it wasn't a push.

But sorry, I'm not buying it. I watched the game in real time, plus countless instant replays immediately thereafter. Even if a man is running by you, it's still considered a push to assist his inertia in any way. Jordan did push off.

Otherwise there was no reason for Jordan to lay his hand on Russell at all. He was shooting a jumper. Not a fade. Not a lean in. Not a baited jump to draw contact and the foul. All Jordan needed to do, if it wasn't a push to clear space, was rise up and pop the J. He didn't need to touch Russell at all. But he did. And it was a push off.

RaiderLakersA's
05-01-2012, 09:46 PM
He was still better than Kobe or Lebron at age 35.

No, he wasn't. Not at 35. Michael knew his limitations then, and it's beyond ridiculous to say Michael in sunset beats Kobe or LeBron in their primes. It's hyperbole like this that ruins any real discussion about Jordan.

Bruno
05-01-2012, 09:48 PM
Not true, defenses were only getting better, the rules were put in place because they were getting TOO dominant. All those rules did is put the game back on a comparable scale to MJ's heyday.

busting the myth one post at a time.

lakersfan01
05-01-2012, 09:49 PM
I can assure you when it happened Bryon did not say it wasn't a push. Several years later, after Jordan and he and formed a solid friendship he said that it wasn't a push.

But sorry, I'm not buying it. I watched the game in real time, plus countless instant replays thereafter. Even if a man is running by you, it's still considered a push to assist his inertia in any way. Jordan did push off.

Agreed, it was a hardcore pushoff, no doubt about it.

ManningToTyree
05-01-2012, 10:12 PM
He replaced his the loss of freakish athletiscism with unparelled fundementals. He got better every year of his career it seemed. I'm too young to remember high flying Jordan, but from whatching a ton of old games he was a much more complete ball player when he returned from retirement number 1.

Becks2307
05-01-2012, 10:15 PM
No, he wasn't. Not at 35. Michael knew his limitations then, and it's beyond ridiculous to say Michael in sunset beats Kobe or LeBron in their primes. It's hyperbole like this that ruins any real discussion about Jordan.

put 36 year old jordan on the heat last year and they win the chip in 5 games

Im 22 so i remember old jordan well, i never really saw young jordan except for highlights.

Old jordan was RIDICulous, its like he figured out basketball completely. His fundamentals were off the charts.

He averaged 28.7 5 and 3 at 36 lol...thats crazy

not to mention each of his last 3 seasons with the bulls he played all 82 games

Kevj77
05-01-2012, 10:40 PM
put 36 year old jordan on the heat last year and they win the chip in 5 games

Im 22 so i remember old jordan well, i never really saw young jordan except for highlights.

Old jordan was RIDICulous, its like he figured out basketball completely. His fundamentals were off the charts.

He averaged 28.7 5 and 3 at 36 lol...thats crazy

not to mention each of his last 3 seasons with the bulls he played all 82 gamesThis is why the myth of Jordan is even greater than Jordan himself. Jordan was retired at 36 he didn't average anything. You were what 6-8 years old during his last 3-peat?

kalveinarthur
05-01-2012, 10:54 PM
Right track for MJ, he is the best NBA player of all Hall of Famers. ufo sightings (http://www.latest-ufo-sightings.net/2012/04/ufo-or-orb-over-rome-italy-28-apr-2012.html)

Chronz
05-01-2012, 11:57 PM
No, he wasn't. Not at 35. Michael knew his limitations then, and it's beyond ridiculous to say Michael in sunset beats Kobe or LeBron in their primes. It's hyperbole like this that ruins any real discussion about Jordan.
Knowin your limitations is suppose to make him lesser than Kobe? Based on what?

Chronz
05-01-2012, 11:58 PM
put 36 year old jordan on the heat last year and they win the chip in 5 games

Im 22 so i remember old jordan well, i never really saw young jordan except for highlights.

Old jordan was RIDICulous, its like he figured out basketball completely. His fundamentals were off the charts.

He averaged 28.7 5 and 3 at 36 lol...thats crazy

not to mention each of his last 3 seasons with the bulls he played all 82 games
MJ played through a **** load of injuries that year and basically willed the Bulls to a title with Pippen no longer being a star.

valade16
05-02-2012, 12:30 AM
MJ played through a **** load of injuries that year and basically willed the Bulls to a title with Pippen no longer being a star.

Exactly. Here's some stats for perspective.

In '98 MJ had a 25.8 PER, which is higher than all of Kobe's except 3 times, and of those 3 he had a 26.1 & 26.2, so not much difference. His .238 WS/48 is also higher than Kobe's ever had...

But to amswer the question I think MJ was clearly the best all the way to through his 5th Title. He had the best WS/48 in the league and a 27.8 PER at 33; not to mention a .567 TS%. His 6th ring his numbers dipped a little and you could argue others were as good, but before that season it was pretty undisputed Jordan was the best.

OaklandsFinest
05-02-2012, 01:07 AM
Its crazy to think some of these posters didn't get to watch him play!! I think some of the earlier posters had it right in the sense that Jordan's game evolved to an amazing point after 30, where he would catch the ball, posted up at the free throw line extended and hold the ball out with one hand and decide how he was going to kill you. But Jordan in '93 I think was his best mix of physical ability and mental strength. What he did to Suns was disgusting and still my favorite Finals performance. 31, 42, 44, 55, 41, 33 point games with around 7 assists a game.

Vikingfan84
05-02-2012, 01:16 AM
all joking aside, he retired in 93 when he was 30, and returned in 95. and then, the 3 peat happened.

It took 3 posts to say what you wanted to say? No wonder people get over 9,000 posts. Trolling the forums...

MickeyMgl
05-02-2012, 02:16 AM
Your gonna get alot of flak for that but its true, MJ in his final days was no longer superman, he was more like prime Kobe by then.

:) That's hilarious. Prime Jordan vs Prime Kobe is debate enough. Don't overreach.

smiddy012
05-02-2012, 02:18 AM
:) That's hilarious. Prime Jordan vs Prime Kobe is debate enough. Don't overreach.

No, it's not "debate." Only West Coasters smokin too much wacky think its "debate."

jam
05-02-2012, 02:18 AM
Its crazy to think some of these posters didn't get to watch him play!! I think some of the earlier posters had it right in the sense that Jordan's game evolved to an amazing point after 30, where he would catch the ball, posted up at the free throw line extended and hold the ball out with one hand and decide how he was going to kill you. But Jordan in '93 I think was his best mix of physical ability and mental strength. What he did to Suns was disgusting and still my favorite Finals performance. 31, 42, 44, 55, 41, 33 point games with around 7 assists a game.

It's very difficult to ascertain which of his first 3 finals performances was most impressive. His 55% from the field and 11 apg against the lakers; or whether it was his 6 3's against portland in a half, or whether it was his cold blooded efficiency and 41 ppg in his third finals.

jam
05-02-2012, 02:21 AM
He replaced his the loss of freakish athletiscism with unparelled fundementals. He got better every year of his career it seemed. I'm too young to remember high flying Jordan, but from whatching a ton of old games he was a much more complete ball player when he returned from retirement number 1.

Thank you. 3 years playing for Dean Smith will do that. :)

This is one area where there is simply no comparison between Jordan and Kobe. Kobe needs to driiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiible for 20 seconds to get his shot (while his teammates fall asleep), while Jordan only needed a split second and kept all of his teammates involved.

It's astonishing how superficial the similarities really are, when you take a closer look.

DLCK
05-02-2012, 02:27 AM
As others said and as a Knicks fan I can say that his midrange game was unreal. Today I guess he would be called a ball stopper but as he aged he posted up elbow extended and had the best fade away midrange jumper ever. The guy like never missed. He evolved from the slasher he was as a young player to the jump shooter he was later in his career. He was by far the best when he hung them up and these days LeBron and Kobe aren't even close to the player Jordan was - not even close. If he didn't retire it would have been 8-10 straight championships.

Its statements like this that will never let any player no matter how great or better or even slightly beneath MJ be in GOAT convo.Its just outrageous how people forget how watered down the league was when Jordan took over especially at SG.Like he never missed a shot never had a 5-22 fg night.These statements are just unreal.I do believe he is the GOAT but its a close convo IMO. With Magic Wilt Kareem...Kobe LBJ Duncan may enter that convo when their careers are over.

MickeyMgl
05-02-2012, 02:36 AM
I have to acknowledge the rampant effects of steroid use today in the nba, but nonetheless, jordan played in an era which has never been equaled in terms of talented big men: drob, shaq, hakeem, patrick, alonzo, etc. Jordan completely abused these guys.

Not all of these guys. The Bulls had a losing record against the Rockets, and were lucky never to have to face Olajuwon - or any great center - in the Finals. Robinson would have been a tough out, too. The Bulls were barely .500 against the Spurs.

smiddy012
05-02-2012, 02:39 AM
Its statements like this that will never let any player no matter how great or better or even slightly beneath MJ be in GOAT convo.Its just outrageous how people forget how watered down the league was when Jordan took over especially at SG.Like he never missed a shot never had a 5-22 fg night.These statements are just unreal.I do believe he is the GOAT but its a close convo IMO. With Magic Wilt Kareem...Kobe LBJ Duncan may enter that convo when their careers are over.

Until someone goes 24 and 0 with homecourt advantage, it's not a conversation as to who the GOAT is, just a monologue... not opinion, just fact.

smiddy012
05-02-2012, 02:53 AM
Not all of these guys. The Bulls had a losing record against the Rockets, and were lucky never to have to face Olajuwon - or any great center - in the Finals. Robinson would have been a tough out, too. The Bulls were barely .500 against the Spurs.

You heard it here. Bulls would have lost to the Rockets in the finals if MJ hadn't retired the first time...

MJ's only the clutchest player in history btw (he was actually better in the playoffs than the regular season). And once they got Rodman, opposing centers weren't a problem.

Patman
05-02-2012, 07:29 AM
Not true, defenses were only getting better, the rules were put in place because they were getting TOO dominant. All those rules did is put the game back on a comparable scale to MJ's heyday.


This needs to be said more often, thanks Chronz. Defenses weren't better in jordans heyday or in the 80's. Defenses Changed but their effectiveness is not worse then in the mid 90's. That nice "illegal Defense" rule made many things you see today from defenses impossible.

MJ developed a great Post Game and a great turnaround jumper and improved his jump shooting game from everywhere. He conserved a bit of energy on the defensive end and wasn't the pest he was in his younger years.
In his last year you could argue that he wasn't the best player in the league but still incredible.

jp611
05-02-2012, 07:40 AM
His post game was so deadly... That turnaround fadeaway J bank shot was so money of his... Boy I wish I had been older to witness those championships... I remember them but just wasn't old enough to appreciate them

naps
05-02-2012, 07:56 AM
May be he lost a step or two when he came out of his 1st retirement but it surely didn't feel like so. He didn't go to the rim as much in those years but he figured out other ways of absolute domination. I mean the guy was unreal. I just wish Jordan never retired and that Bulls team never broke up in 1998. Jordan could have had 8-10 championships. I consider myself so lucky to have witnessed Jordan play live, I know most kids here can't say that :D

naps
05-02-2012, 08:01 AM
He's overrated, but it isn't his fault. He was a superior athlete during an era with no athletes.

Every time I see you post and I feel only one thing that is "You are an embarrassment to life itself."

JordansBulls
05-02-2012, 08:45 AM
After he returned from his first retirement, the NBA seemed very grateful, giving him every call and every award, whether or not he deserved it.

He was getting a lot more FTs in the 80s, during his title years however:

1991: 8.2 FTA
1992: 7.4 FTA
1993: 7.3 FTA
1996: 8.0 FTA
1997: 7.0 FTA
1998: 8.8 FTA (this was the only year of his career I thought he was getting a bit too much love from the refs)

ordan has two seasons of 10+ FTA/g, both on 24+ FGA/g.

You realize his career FTA/FGA is about 0.358, right? That's WAY lower than what you see out of Kobe, Wade, Lebron, etc, etc. Kobe's career FTA/FGA, even accounting for his pre-05 seasons, is .395, and it would have been higher if he'd played his entire career in years from 04-05 onward. Wade's at .503, Lebron at .434, Melo at about .410.

Should I go on?

Anyone who complains that Jordan got too many calls is flat-out ignorant. There aren't many seasons where his raw FTA/g were that bad, and there are only two or three seasons where he got anything like the favorable treatment seen by stars today. He got to the line because, like someone such as Wade, he drove a lot. Only the rules were different and he had to drive and shoot a lot more to earn his trips to the line. It's pure BS when people complain that Jordan got more calls than anyone else. David Robinson, Karl Malone and Charles Barkley are all examples of guys that got roughly equivalent or noticeably more favorable treatment from the refs in terms of how often they went to the line. Barkley's at .554 FTA/FGA on his career, BTW, while Robinson and Malone are at .577 and .503.

Did someone want to go back and re-learn their NBA history before continuing?

Thanks.


Not to mention that you talking about a guy just getting an award. Kobe got on first team all defense and only had 12 freaking blocks the entire year in 82 games. That shows no effort whatsoever for a player of his size and height.

Becks2307
05-02-2012, 09:56 AM
This is why the myth of Jordan is even greater than Jordan himself. Jordan was retired at 36 he didn't average anything. You were what 6-8 years old during his last 3-peat?

I saw a **** load of games in 97/98, sorry I was one year off in age. Either way did i lie about the stats? nope.

DaBUU
05-02-2012, 11:30 AM
I can assure you when it happened Bryon did not say it wasn't a push. Several years later, after Jordan and he had formed a solid friendship BR said that it wasn't a push.

But sorry, I'm not buying it. I watched the game in real time, plus countless instant replays immediately thereafter. Even if a man is running by you, it's still considered a push to assist his inertia in any way. Jordan did push off.

Otherwise there was no reason for Jordan to lay his hand on Russell at all. He was shooting a jumper. Not a fade. Not a lean in. Not a baited jump to draw contact and the foul. All Jordan needed to do, if it wasn't a push to clear space, was rise up and pop the J. He didn't need to touch Russell at all. But he did. And it was a push off.

Obviously I'm a diehard Bulls fan who grew up idolizing MJ. But if we're all being honest, it was a push. But F it, we still had a giant party in Grant Park afterward.

DaBUU
05-02-2012, 11:39 AM
Its crazy to think some of these posters didn't get to watch him play!! I think some of the earlier posters had it right in the sense that Jordan's game evolved to an amazing point after 30, where he would catch the ball, posted up at the free throw line extended and hold the ball out with one hand and decide how he was going to kill you. But Jordan in '93 I think was his best mix of physical ability and mental strength. What he did to Suns was disgusting and still my favorite Finals performance. 31, 42, 44, 55, 41, 33 point games with around 7 assists a game.

He was at the height of his powers in '93 and what he did to Phoenix was devastating. The game that went into 3 overtimes is still the greatest game i've ever witnessed. For the young guys on here who didn't get to see him in real time, you don't know what you missed.

RaiderLakersA's
05-02-2012, 11:40 AM
put 36 year old jordan on the heat last year and they win the chip in 5 games

Im 22 so i remember old jordan well, i never really saw young jordan except for highlights.

Old jordan was RIDICulous, its like he figured out basketball completely. His fundamentals were off the charts.

He averaged 28.7 5 and 3 at 36 lol...thats crazy

not to mention each of his last 3 seasons with the bulls he played all 82 games

Sir, I'm more than twice your age and I saw young and old Jordan, as well as young and old Kareem. What you offer is speculation at best.

Yes, Jordan was still a phenomenal player at 35, but he wasn't scoring 81 points in a game, or 60+ through 3 quarters. Young Jordan could, but not 35 year old long in the tooth and heavy mileage Jordan. Father Time had already started to wear down Superman at that point. The retirements weren't just because of his lack of interest in the game, or due to some mysterious personal matter. Jordan was a weary man.

goldenstater
05-02-2012, 11:45 AM
As others said and as a Knicks fan I can say that his midrange game was unreal. Today I guess he would be called a ball stopper but as he aged he posted up elbow extended and had the best fade away midrange jumper ever. The guy like never missed. He evolved from the slasher he was as a young player to the jump shooter he was later in his career. He was by far the best when he hung them up and these days LeBron and Kobe aren't even close to the player Jordan was - not even close. If he didn't retire it would have been 8-10 straight championships.

this.

RaiderLakersA's
05-02-2012, 11:45 AM
Thank you. 3 years playing for Dean Smith will do that. :)

This is one area where there is simply no comparison between Jordan and Kobe. Kobe needs to driiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiible for 20 seconds to get his shot (while his teammates fall asleep), while Jordan only needed a split second and kept all of his teammates involved.

It's astonishing how superficial the similarities really are, when you take a closer look.

That's not true. Jordan was also accused of being both a ball hog and a ball stopper in his early days. And he would dribble and dribble and dribble to get a shot off, too.

However, late in his career the Bulls had completely mastered the triangle and they had also added player like Tony Kukoc who could initiate their own offense, so that Jordan never had to dominate the ball as much.

Chronz
05-02-2012, 11:46 AM
Your gonna get alot of flak for that but its true, MJ in his final days was no longer superman, he was more like prime Kobe by then.

:) That's hilarious. Prime Jordan vs Prime Kobe is debate enough. Don't overreach.
LOL

There is no debate in their prime, the only time they were comparable is when MJ came back in baseball shape .

Chronz
05-02-2012, 12:06 PM
As others said and as a Knicks fan I can say that his midrange game was unreal. Today I guess he would be called a ball stopper but as he aged he posted up elbow extended and had the best fade away midrange jumper ever. The guy like never missed. He evolved from the slasher he was as a young player to the jump shooter he was later in his career. He was by far the best when he hung them up and these days LeBron and Kobe aren't even close to the player Jordan was - not even close. If he didn't retire it would have been 8-10 straight championships.

Its statements like this that will never let any player no matter how great or better or even slightly beneath MJ be in GOAT convo.Its just outrageous how people forget how watered down the league was when Jordan took over especially at SG.Like he never missed a shot never had a 5-22 fg night.These statements are just unreal.I do believe he is the GOAT but its a close convo IMO. With Magic Wilt Kareem...Kobe LBJ Duncan may enter that convo when their careers are over.
Usually when people say its not even close, I find they are comparing the players at their best not when their careers are over.

Stinkyoutsider
05-02-2012, 12:17 PM
Jordan was the best and Phil Jackson put him in the position to be just that. The triangle offense gave Jordan all the positioning he needed to get his shot off. I still remember all those times Kukoc and Pippen would get the ball to Jordan at the elbow and then would cut through to the weak side. You knew MJ was going to dominate the defender every time

He didn't need to be a slasher when he came back because he refined his game for the mid range and in the post, he was a great passer. He always found his open teammate on the double team and MJ always had good 3 point shooters waiting for the pass.

Chronz
05-02-2012, 12:20 PM
Im glad JB put the free throw BS to rest, and Kobe was gifted many more awards, welcome to the nba.

naps
05-02-2012, 01:09 PM
:) That's hilarious. Prime Jordan vs Prime Kobe is debate enough.


What??? May be in your wildest dreams??



Don't overreach.

Oh the irony!

Stop riding Kobe's nuts. He's a great on his own. Don't overrate him.

naps
05-02-2012, 01:16 PM
I saw young and old Jordan, as well as young and old Kareem. What you offer is speculation at best.


Just out of curiosity, if you watched a young Kareem play live then you most likely saw Wilt play live and may be the dusk of Russell?

GONYGONYKNICKS
05-02-2012, 01:18 PM
Great post and mid-range game along with a dependable spot 3.

Along with the best hands ever. Those never diminish.

GONYGONYKNICKS
05-02-2012, 01:21 PM
Kareem was the greatest post scorer in history by a long mile.

If you had a Kareem in the NBA right now his team would maybe take 2 pointers per game.

That sky hook was 60-75% automatic.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
05-02-2012, 01:23 PM
I dont believe that, it was a push off but people make it seem like he needed it to create the space, MJ had already crossed him and BR wasnt going to recover. His momentum carried him and the hand movement makes the pushoff look devastating.

What do you mean you don't believe that... This isn't a riddle... you don't need to figure this out. Read the book "When Nothing Else Matters" It's about Jordan's last comeback with the Washington Wizard's, Where Michael was teammates with Bryan Russell... Now if you don't believe it, then IDK what to tell ya.

Chronz
05-02-2012, 01:31 PM
What do you mean you don't believe that... This isn't a riddle... you don't need to figure this out. Read the book "When Nothing Else Matters" It's about Jordan's last comeback with the Washington Wizard's, Where Michael was teammates with Bryan Russell... Now if you don't believe it, then IDK what to tell ya.

Ive skimmed through it but I dont recall anything about it. Whats he say? Oh by I dont believe it, I mean that I dont believe he needed it. The guy was off balance and already gone, MJ's push off was the equivalent of me pushing defenders off with a feather.

ChicagoJ
05-02-2012, 02:53 PM
I don't know what his weight was from the first title to the last, but Jordan packed on quite a bit of muscle as he got older. He was always evolving from the get go as well. Added the 3 pt shot, got better at perimeter shooting, and developed that in the post turn around jumper which couldn't be defended. He was a better player when he was older, but I have to admit when he was in his 20s he was so exciting to watch. Always was, but the defense and drives to the basket packed highlight reels.

Becks2307
05-02-2012, 07:17 PM
Sir, I'm more than twice your age and I saw young and old Jordan, as well as young and old Kareem. What you offer is speculation at best.

Yes, Jordan was still a phenomenal player at 35, but he wasn't scoring 81 points in a game, or 60+ through 3 quarters. Young Jordan could, but not 35 year old long in the tooth and heavy mileage Jordan. Father Time had already started to wear down Superman at that point. The retirements weren't just because of his lack of interest in the game, or due to some mysterious personal matter. Jordan was a weary man.

Here is what i posted

put 36 year old jordan on the heat last year and they win the chip in 5 games

Im 22 so i remember old jordan well, i never really saw young jordan except for highlights.

Old jordan was RIDICulous, its like he figured out basketball completely. His fundamentals were off the charts.

He averaged 28.7 5 and 3 at 36 lol...thats crazy

not to mention each of his last 3 seasons with the bulls he played all 82 games


I dont understand what i said here that was speculation? Don't you think that 28.7, 5 and 3 were amazing numbers for a 35 year old? especially on 47% shooting. I wasn't saying that he was amazing in general especially in comparison to his earlier years, what I meant is that he was amazing for is age, especially considering how well he adapted.

GONYGONYKNICKS
05-02-2012, 07:41 PM
Most fans today do not appreciate just how much better the players were 30 years ago. More fundamental, better footwork, and frankly a better game. Less teams, less slots for dogs. Plus all the muscling up I think has hurt players flexibility and fluidity.

Heck, 12th guy off the bench on the Celtics 1984 Championship team is probably better then today's 8th. I mean, go find me someone even as good as Kelly Tripucka offensively in today's game. And he was just OK. Today he'd drop 30 per. Adrian Dantley. Sick players who'd be mega stars today.

MickeyMgl
05-02-2012, 07:59 PM
No, it's not "debate." Only West Coasters smokin too much wacky think its "debate."

... And completely sober coaches of both... and perfectly lucid teammates of both... and very rational people who played against both... and pretty much anybody whoever played or participated in NBA basketball.

bbiq
05-02-2012, 08:16 PM
i disagree with alot of the posts because as the NBA evolved teams were assembled to stop Mike any playoff team the bulls faced the team was put together for one reason and one reason only to stop Mike,teams had enough money to purchase any talent ,but as he would say himself the pounding on his body was the reason for staying out of the lane, also learning to trust his teammates too,the amount of physical punishement on the body from the Knicks,Pacers,and Detriot coming out of the east was a beating, and yes Kobe is good but can not ever be compared to the greatest to lace up a pair, when Mike played the could hand check you all the way to the basket, in todays game you can`t touch a player once he is passed the 3 point stripe

_KB24_
05-02-2012, 08:28 PM
Go watch Space Jam.

/end thread.

lakersfan01
05-02-2012, 08:49 PM
He was getting a lot more FTs in the 80s, during his title years however:

1991: 8.2 FTA
1992: 7.4 FTA
1993: 7.3 FTA
1996: 8.0 FTA
1997: 7.0 FTA
1998: 8.8 FTA (this was the only year of his career I thought he was getting a bit too much love from the refs)

ordan has two seasons of 10+ FTA/g, both on 24+ FGA/g.

You realize his career FTA/FGA is about 0.358, right? That's WAY lower than what you see out of Kobe, Wade, Lebron, etc, etc. Kobe's career FTA/FGA, even accounting for his pre-05 seasons, is .395, and it would have been higher if he'd played his entire career in years from 04-05 onward. Wade's at .503, Lebron at .434, Melo at about .410.

Should I go on?

Anyone who complains that Jordan got too many calls is flat-out ignorant. There aren't many seasons where his raw FTA/g were that bad, and there are only two or three seasons where he got anything like the favorable treatment seen by stars today. He got to the line because, like someone such as Wade, he drove a lot. Only the rules were different and he had to drive and shoot a lot more to earn his trips to the line. It's pure BS when people complain that Jordan got more calls than anyone else. David Robinson, Karl Malone and Charles Barkley are all examples of guys that got roughly equivalent or noticeably more favorable treatment from the refs in terms of how often they went to the line. Barkley's at .554 FTA/FGA on his career, BTW, while Robinson and Malone are at .577 and .503.

Did someone want to go back and re-learn their NBA history before continuing?

Thanks.


Not to mention that you talking about a guy just getting an award. Kobe got on first team all defense and only had 12 freaking blocks the entire year in 82 games. That shows no effort whatsoever for a player of his size and height.

Yeah it was outrageous that Kobe was named to first team all defense last season. I learned of it watching ESPN and saw it on the ticker. All I did was start laughing lol the NBA awards are BS!!! He used to be a tenacious defender, but old Kobe just watches his man shoot without contesting shots. Jordan's. defense never dipped off to the point where Kobe's D has.

They didn't even have a remotely similiar style of play. The comparison ends at they are both 6'6" shooting guards. Kobe has hoisted up 4 times as many 3pointers as. MJ!!! MJ attacked the basket. Kobe settles for poor shots.

Kobe Bryant is a GREAT player, but these fools need to stop being disrespectful. Kobe's name doesn't belong in the same sentence as. new sentence. Michael Jordan.

MickeyMgl
05-02-2012, 10:34 PM
Anyone who complains that Jordan got too many calls is flat-out ignorant. There aren't many seasons where his raw FTA/g were that bad, and there are only two or three seasons where he got anything like the favorable treatment seen by stars today. He got to the line because, like someone such as Wade, he drove a lot. Only the rules were different and he had to drive and shoot a lot more to earn his trips to the line. It's pure BS when people complain that Jordan got more calls than anyone else. David Robinson, Karl Malone and Charles Barkley are all examples of guys that got roughly equivalent or noticeably more favorable treatment from the refs in terms of how often they went to the line. Barkley's at .554 FTA/FGA on his career, BTW, while Robinson and Malone are at .577 and .503.

Comparing any wing player's FT rate (including Jordan's) to that of post players is pointless. Secondly, FTA is not necessarily an accurate measure of how many fouls are called.

MickeyMgl
05-02-2012, 10:46 PM
LOL

There is no debate in their prime, the only time they were comparable is when MJ came back in baseball shape .

Jordan "in baseball shape" (94-95) would unquestionably be among the lesser seasons for Kobe. Comparing it to his prime is just pure comedy.

MickeyMgl
05-02-2012, 10:50 PM
What??? May be in your wildest dreams??

Oh, no. In reality. You should visit it sometime. In reality, people debate this subject often, whether you feel strongly about one side of that debate or not. That explains why, in topics purely about Jordan, his fans feel the need to call out Bryant.

Hawkeye15
05-02-2012, 11:45 PM
Yeah it was outrageous that Kobe was named to first team all defense last season.

agreed. Forgive me for quoting just a small portion, but I thought this particular portion was agreeable considering our relationship.

GONYGONYKNICKS
05-02-2012, 11:46 PM
Lakers fans above all should respect Jordan. Jordan dismantled the 1991 Lakers in the finals. Jordan averaged 31.2 points on 56% shooting, 11.4 assists, 6.6 rebounds, 2.8 steals and 1.4 blocks.

The Lakers had Magic, Worthy, Sam Perkins, Mychal Thompson, Byron Scott, Vlade Divas and AC Green.

Outside of Pippen, Jordan had Bill Cartwright, Scott Williams, Stacey King, Horace Grant, BJ Armstrong, Will Perdue ..... D League Team.

Lakers lost 4-1. Jordan PER over 30.

Kobe never won a title with an inferior cast like Jordan did. At his peak, comps were Wilt, Kareem ....... that is it.

smiddy012
05-03-2012, 04:52 AM
Oh, no. In reality. You should visit it sometime. In reality, people debate this subject often, whether you feel strongly about one side of that debate or not. That explains why, in topics purely about Jordan, his fans feel the need to call out Bryant.

lol, where do you live? On Mars? The ONLY people who debate Kobe vs. MJ are Lakers fans who were too young to witness MJ. I've literally never witnessed such a debate in real life. Even MOST Lakers fans aren't blind to the numbers MJ put up.

Where has Bryant been called out on this thread by Jordan fans? It's the posters like you who have been called out for being flat out wrong, not your idol. Just because people are poking holes through your argument does not mean they are taking pot-shots at Kobe. Kobe is a top 10 player all time for sure, but there is no rational or real debate as to who the better prime player is. ONLY SOME Lakers fans are naive enough to call it a debate. Try looking up and comparing/contrasting the stats. Tell me why a prime Kobe is comparable to a prime MJ relative to THE STATS, I would love to read your "evidence."

BigCityofDreams
05-03-2012, 08:40 AM
This needs to be said more often, thanks Chronz. Defenses weren't better in jordans heyday or in the 80's. Defenses Changed but their effectiveness is not worse then in the mid 90's. That nice "illegal Defense" rule made many things you see today from defenses impossible.

MJ developed a great Post Game and a great turnaround jumper and improved his jump shooting game from everywhere. He conserved a bit of energy on the defensive end and wasn't the pest he was in his younger years.
In his last year you could argue that he wasn't the best player in the league but still incredible.

Are there any articles to back this up. Not saying it's not true but whenever you bring it up to someone else they always reply with that's not true, did you watch the defense back then, etc.

GONYGONYKNICKS
05-03-2012, 09:33 AM
This needs to be said more often, thanks Chronz. Defenses weren't better in jordans heyday or in the 80's. Defenses Changed but their effectiveness is not worse then in the mid 90's. That nice "illegal Defense" rule made many things you see today from defenses impossible.

MJ developed a great Post Game and a great turnaround jumper and improved his jump shooting game from everywhere. He conserved a bit of energy on the defensive end and wasn't the pest he was in his younger years.
In his last year you could argue that he wasn't the best player in the league but still incredible.

You could hand check and play more physical in the perimeter.

Chronz
05-03-2012, 10:37 AM
Jordan "in baseball shape" (94-95) would unquestionably be among the lesser seasons for Kobe. Comparing it to his prime is just pure comedy.

My point is that it would be he most comparable version of MJ to Kobe, aside from MJ's final seasons.

Chronz
05-03-2012, 10:39 AM
Oh, no. In reality. You should visit it sometime. In reality, people debate this subject often, whether you feel strongly about one side of that debate or not. That explains why, in topics purely about Jordan, his fans feel the need to call out Bryant.
Its brought up because hes the closest that comes to matching him in terms of similar playing styles and championships, but nobody has ever made a compelling case for Kobe above MJ, ever, its well known that its a lopsided debate.

Chronz
05-03-2012, 10:41 AM
You could hand check and play more physical in the perimeter.

That was needed when the athletes were smaller and less physically imposing, and with zones being illegal.

The most dominant defensive era came from 98-2004, regardless people make it seem like the game is sooo different

BigCityofDreams
05-03-2012, 10:44 AM
Are there stats and articles to back it up? I find it fascinating because whenever ppl talk about the best defensive era they always bring up the 80's and 90's?

nycericanguy
05-03-2012, 10:49 AM
My point is that it would be he most comparable version of MJ to Kobe, aside from MJ's final seasons.

Stats aside, I'm not in awe when I watch Kobe, well at least not regularly. I only saw Jordan post baseball, but I made sure to catch every game that he played on TV, I was in awe watching him. His all around game was amazing. He wasn't just a scorer, he was arguably the best passing SG and best rebounding SG the league has ever seen. He was the total package.

Jordan AVERAGED 32/8/8 on 54% one year, Lebron has had ONE game where he had 32/8 & 8 this year. Think about that, and just how amazing that is.

Kobe is a guy that scores alot, but he needs a TON of shots to do so, prime Jordan was a 54% shooter, Kobe has never even hit the 47% mark.

Patman
05-03-2012, 11:04 AM
Are there stats and articles to back it up? I find it fascinating because whenever ppl talk about the best defensive era they always bring up the 80's and 90's?


You just can look at ORTG/DRTG over the different Years and you will see that defenses got really brutal at the end of the 90's and early 00's . Hand checking needed to be abolished because defenses became to dominant.
Example in 04 the ORTG was 102.9 the lowest in the 90's before the lockout was 105.00. in the 80's it was 104.7 . Last season it was 107.2 which is more or less inline with the 80's and the early and mid 90's.

If i remember correctly Dean Oliver has a segment about that in Basketball on Paper.

ORTG for the league:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/stats.html

BigCityofDreams
05-03-2012, 11:28 AM
Thanks man I appreciate it.

MickeyMgl
05-03-2012, 11:59 AM
Lakers fans above all should respect Jordan. Jordan dismantled the 1991 Lakers in the finals. Jordan averaged 31.2 points on 56% shooting, 11.4 assists, 6.6 rebounds, 2.8 steals and 1.4 blocks.

The Lakers had Magic, Worthy, Sam Perkins, Mychal Thompson, Byron Scott, Vlade Divas and AC Green.

Outside of Pippen, Jordan had Bill Cartwright, Scott Williams, Stacey King, Horace Grant, BJ Armstrong, Will Perdue ..... D League Team.

Lakers lost 4-1. Jordan PER over 30.

Kobe never won a title with an inferior cast like Jordan did. At his peak, comps were Wilt, Kareem ....... that is it.

That was not an inferior cast, especially when you factor in the coaches. Worthy and Thompson were on their last legs by the time those playoffs went around. Worthy was playing injured, and the following season his game sllipped dramatically and never recovered. Thompson was playing his last season. Divac only his second.

The Bulls were clearly the better team that year, all year. I don't think a healthy Lakers' squad would have beaten them. They were a superior cast by name recognition only.

MickeyMgl
05-03-2012, 12:06 PM
lol, where do you live? On Mars? The ONLY people who debate Kobe vs. MJ are Lakers fans who were too young to witness MJ. I've literally never witnessed such a debate in real life. Even MOST Lakers fans aren't blind to the numbers MJ put up.

I am old enough to have witnessed all of MJ's career, and not have to rely on the polished and shiny version of it that young fans see on ESPN. In reality, here on Earth, many non Laker fans have this discussion. I don't know what to tell you. I'm not privy to what caves you may have been living in the past decade or so. Phil Jackson entertains the discussion frequently, as do most of their teammates and opponents and sportswriters.



Where has Bryant been called out on this thread by Jordan fans?

Very first page of the thread.

MickeyMgl
05-03-2012, 12:10 PM
You could hand check and play more physical in the perimeter.

You could also run more isolation, as there was no zone and no Barkley Rule.

Chronz
05-03-2012, 12:12 PM
Stats aside, I'm not in awe when I watch Kobe, well at least not regularly. I only saw Jordan post baseball, but I made sure to catch every game that he played on TV, I was in awe watching him. His all around game was amazing. He wasn't just a scorer, he was arguably the best passing SG and best rebounding SG the league has ever seen. He was the total package.

Jordan AVERAGED 32/8/8 on 54% one year, Lebron has had ONE game where he had 32/8 & 8 this year. Think about that, and just how amazing that is.

Kobe is a guy that scores alot, but he needs a TON of shots to do so, prime Jordan was a 54% shooter, Kobe has never even hit the 47% mark.
You have to account for the differences in pace, MPG, and league averages when you compare statistics. Hes still amazing but lets not overrate him

Gram
05-03-2012, 12:18 PM
He was sick.

MickeyMgl
05-03-2012, 12:20 PM
Its brought up because hes the closest that comes to matching him in terms of similar playing styles and championships, but nobody has ever made a compelling case for Kobe above MJ, ever, its well known that its a lopsided debate.

The first part of your statement is enough for me. It is a discussion that exists... frequently. A hot sports topic of our times.

As for the last bit... it's "well known" that it's a lopsided debate by people who think it's a lopsided debate. Not everybody does, and they're not all Laker fans, or young fans, or fans of one team or another at all. Dissent exists. I'm not referring to people who necessarily favor Kobe. I'm referring to smart basketball people who don't think it's lopsided, as opposed to Jordan fans who do. Phil Jackson, Mark Jackson, Jeff Van Gundy, Steve Kerr, Sam Smith, and others... who may or may not all agree that Jordan is the best, but all of whom, along with many others, have expressed at one time or another, in one way or another, that it's not that lopsided.

But if a person happens to believe it is lopsided, then it's just going to seem like it's "well known".

Chronz
05-03-2012, 12:33 PM
Well yea we have to compare MJ to SOMEBODY. That somebody is Kobe. And yes it is very well known that its a lopsided debate. Especially when it comes to gauging them at their best, even Mark Jackson had to specify that "AT THE END OF THE DAY, Kobe will go down a greater player" implying that hes waiting for cumulative records and chips to be the separating factor, this is not the same argument as comparing the 2 at their best.

I will admit its closer when you talk about legacy because of the fact that MJ called it quits several times, but even then its not even close. I cant think of anyone save for that chick at ESPN and Mark Jackson who share that thought.


The VAST MAJORITY of the NBA landscape KNOWS MJ was clearly better and will never be topped by someone like Kobe.

But feel free to post what others have said, we'll see who can reference more people. LOL


Most importantly, I would LOVE to hear YOUR argument for it being close. Im not one for hiding behind the opinions of others but in this case, you clearly dont have the support of the majority of people who follow the game.

georgiadolfan
05-03-2012, 12:49 PM
:) That's hilarious. Prime Jordan vs Prime Kobe is debate enough. Don't overreach.

Prime Jordan vs Prime Kobe is no debate

Cfrey
05-03-2012, 01:39 PM
Let me put it this way. Kobe Bryant's name isn't worthy of being in the same sentence as. New sentence. Michael Jordan.

lol

NYflightboy
05-03-2012, 02:53 PM
As far as Kobe vs MJ there is no debate as to who is better. MJ = GOAT. That simple.

But there is room for comparison when it comes to there style of games. Early in their careers they used their athleticism to dominate their opponents. Mostly driving to the basket doing crazy acrobatic lay-ups and dunks.

Both are committed premier defenders that get away with way too much and still ***** at refs all game.

Later in their careers, as they got up in age and lost some of their explosive athleticism, they both adjusted refined their approach. They became a lot more crafty. A lot more head fakes, turn-arounds, and fade-aways. And both became better perimeter shooters.

**** this. I don't want to type anymore but you see where i'm going with this.

LAKERMANIA
05-03-2012, 04:46 PM
As far as Kobe vs MJ there is no debate as to who is better. MJ = GOAT. That simple.

But there is room for comparison when it comes to there style of games. Early in their careers they used their athleticism to dominate their opponents. Mostly driving to the basket doing crazy acrobatic lay-ups and dunks.

Both are committed premier defenders that get away with way too much and still ***** at refs all game.

Later in their careers, as they got up in age and lost some of their explosive athleticism, they both adjusted refined their approach. They became a lot more crafty. A lot more head fakes, turn-arounds, and fade-aways. And both became better perimeter shooters.

**** this. I don't want to type anymore but you see where i'm going with this.
Great post. I agree, MJ to me is better but that doesn't mean we can't compare the two.

smiddy012
05-03-2012, 06:21 PM
Both are committed premier defenders that get away with way too much and still ***** at refs all game.

MJ didn't ***** at the refs like today's stars, in fact he barely *****ed at refs at all. Not to mention the refs didn't kiss his *** back then...


He was getting a lot more FTs in the 80s, during his title years however:

1991: 8.2 FTA
1992: 7.4 FTA
1993: 7.3 FTA
1996: 8.0 FTA
1997: 7.0 FTA
1998: 8.8 FTA (this was the only year of his career I thought he was getting a bit too much love from the refs)

ordan has two seasons of 10+ FTA/g, both on 24+ FGA/g.

You realize his career FTA/FGA is about 0.358, right? That's WAY lower than what you see out of Kobe, Wade, Lebron, etc, etc. Kobe's career FTA/FGA, even accounting for his pre-05 seasons, is .395, and it would have been higher if he'd played his entire career in years from 04-05 onward. Wade's at .503, Lebron at .434, Melo at about .410.

Should I go on?

Anyone who complains that Jordan got too many calls is flat-out ignorant. There aren't many seasons where his raw FTA/g were that bad, and there are only two or three seasons where he got anything like the favorable treatment seen by stars today. He got to the line because, like someone such as Wade, he drove a lot. Only the rules were different and he had to drive and shoot a lot more to earn his trips to the line. It's pure BS when people complain that Jordan got more calls than anyone else. David Robinson, Karl Malone and Charles Barkley are all examples of guys that got roughly equivalent or noticeably more favorable treatment from the refs in terms of how often they went to the line. Barkley's at .554 FTA/FGA on his career, BTW, while Robinson and Malone are at .577 and .503.

Did someone want to go back and re-learn their NBA history before continuing?

Thanks.


Not to mention that you talking about a guy just getting an award. Kobe got on first team all defense and only had 12 freaking blocks the entire year in 82 games. That shows no effort whatsoever for a player of his size and height.

Such a good post I had to bump it.

Chronz
05-04-2012, 03:13 AM
As far as Kobe vs MJ there is no debate as to who is better. MJ = GOAT. That simple.

But there is room for comparison when it comes to there style of games. Early in their careers they used their athleticism to dominate their opponents. Mostly driving to the basket doing crazy acrobatic lay-ups and dunks.

Both are committed premier defenders that get away with way too much and still ***** at refs all game.

Later in their careers, as they got up in age and lost some of their explosive athleticism, they both adjusted refined their approach. They became a lot more crafty. A lot more head fakes, turn-arounds, and fade-aways. And both became better perimeter shooters.

**** this. I don't want to type anymore but you see where i'm going with this.
Great post. I agree, MJ to me is better but that doesn't mean we can't compare the two.
You can compare whoever you want, it doesn't make the comparison close

LakersMaster24
05-04-2012, 03:44 AM
Kobe is the closest thing to Jordan. If you disagree I want you to bring up another player who is closer to Jordan than Kobe.

If you cant see similarities between Kobe's and Jordan's game, then you should probably visit your eye doctor. The fact that Kobe and Jordan play so much alike makes them comparable, but it does NOT, I repeat does NOT make Kobe better than Jordan in any way, shape or form.

Relax, no one is touching Jordan your idol and god. So far he is still the undisputed best player in the history of the NBA. However I cant wait for the day when some guy comes out and takes a **** on all the Jordan's TS%, PER, WinShares and all other stats. I cant wait to hear the answer of some of the stat geeks on this forum. I truly believe that if a guy comes out with amazing stats, more MVPs than Jordan and the same amount or more of rings, people would still call Jordan the GOAT no matter what and find other bs reasons to support their claim.

Again, Kobe < Jordan, but Kobe is the closest thing to Jordan thus far. No other player got closer to Jordans level. This does not however mean that Kobe is close to Jordan, he is just CLOSER than any other player in the history of the damn game, thus far.

smiddy012
05-04-2012, 03:55 AM
I cant wait for the day when some guy comes out and takes a **** on all the Jordan's TS%, PER, WinShares and all other stats. I cant wait to hear the answer of some of the stat geeks on this forum. I truly believe that if a guy comes out with amazing stats, more MVPs than Jordan and the same amount or more of rings, people would still call Jordan the GOAT no matter what and find other bs reasons to support their claim.

K, lemme know when someone goes 25-0 in the playoffs with HCA. I'll be waiting :rolleyes:

LakersMaster24
05-04-2012, 09:48 AM
I cant wait for the day when some guy comes out and takes a **** on all the Jordan's TS%, PER, WinShares and all other stats. I cant wait to hear the answer of some of the stat geeks on this forum. I truly believe that if a guy comes out with amazing stats, more MVPs than Jordan and the same amount or more of rings, people would still call Jordan the GOAT no matter what and find other bs reasons to support their claim.

K, lemme know when someone goes 25-0 in the playoffs with HCA. I'll be waiting :rolleyes:

So you're saying no one will EVER do it?

Patman
05-04-2012, 09:59 AM
K, lemme know when someone goes 25-0 in the playoffs with HCA. I'll be waiting :rolleyes:


Team achievements for the win, when we compare players.........

AIRMAR72
05-04-2012, 11:13 AM
For someone who hasn't been a fan for that long of a time (started watching in '02), can someone explain how Jordan's game was after he turned 30. Looking at his numbers, he still was as good as ever. Did he lose a step? Did he look old? How did he refine his game? WELL where should I start but than again it require too much typing when talking about MJ I can TELL you THIS their was no 1 like him backthan or in todays NBA and in his mid 30 he was machine the turnaround fadeaway was a automatic computerize move works like a CNC machine the man was country strong and wicked with ball, incredible body control and passer, james bond IQ, huge soft hands the LIST GOES on on

RaiderLakersA's
05-04-2012, 11:21 AM
Team achievements for the win, when we compare players.........

What??! Gadzooks!!! Cry blasphemy!!!! Cry sacrilege!!!! No, no, no, you cannot dare utter that word ("team") in reference to their god. This is the great and powerful deity Jordan that we're discussing after all. He did it all by himself, don't you know? Right after he raised the dead, cured the infirm, walked on water, errr, air, and all without missing a shot, or allowing a shot, or even allowing anyone else to mention the word "shot" without his consent. I mean he walked away from the game for a couple of years just so that HE wouldn't win 8 titles in a row. Surely you recall this, his greatest feat of them all?!? What sacrifice! What compassion! What balls, you ungrateful lout! How dare you mention the word "team" in the same context as the Almight One! On your knees, infidel, and repent!!!

AIRMAR72
05-04-2012, 11:25 AM
So you're saying no one will EVER do it?
its possible for any talented skill player but what you guys dont remember IS, it was harder to get basket comparing with today NBA the game is easier today when guys scored 40 points backthan it was a true milestone for them since punishment was allowed you really had to earn your baskets

georgiadolfan
05-04-2012, 11:42 AM
Kobe is the closest thing to Jordan. If you disagree I want you to bring up another player who is closer to Jordan than Kobe.

If you cant see similarities between Kobe's and Jordan's game, then you should probably visit your eye doctor. The fact that Kobe and Jordan play so much alike makes them comparable, but it does NOT, I repeat does NOT make Kobe better than Jordan in any way, shape or form.

Relax, no one is touching Jordan your idol and god. So far he is still the undisputed best player in the history of the NBA. However I cant wait for the day when some guy comes out and takes a **** on all the Jordan's TS%, PER, WinShares and all other stats. I cant wait to hear the answer of some of the stat geeks on this forum. I truly believe that if a guy comes out with amazing stats, more MVPs than Jordan and the same amount or more of rings, people would still call Jordan the GOAT no matter what and find other bs reasons to support their claim.

Again, Kobe < Jordan, but Kobe is the closest thing to Jordan thus far. No other player got closer to Jordans level. This does not however mean that Kobe is close to Jordan, he is just CLOSER than any other player in the history of the damn game, thus far.

This:clap::clap:

AIRMAR72
05-04-2012, 11:46 AM
Kobe is the closest thing to Jordan. If you disagree I want you to bring up another player who is closer to Jordan than Kobe.

If you cant see similarities between Kobe's and Jordan's game, then you should probably visit your eye doctor. The fact that Kobe and Jordan play so much alike makes them comparable, but it does NOT, I repeat does NOT make Kobe better than Jordan in any way, shape or form.

Relax, no one is touching Jordan your idol and god. So far he is still the undisputed best player in the history of the NBA. However I cant wait for the day when some guy comes out and takes a **** on all the Jordan's TS%, PER, WinShares and all other stats. I cant wait to hear the answer of some of the stat geeks on this forum. I truly believe that if a guy comes out with amazing stats, more MVPs than Jordan and the same amount or more of rings, people would still call Jordan the GOAT no matter what and find other bs reasons to support their claim.

Again, Kobe < Jordan, but Kobe is the closest thing to Jordan thus far. No other player got closer to Jordans level. This does not however mean that Kobe is close to Jordan, he is just CLOSER than any other player in the history of the damn game, thus far.
dont be a FOOL kobe(shelby cobera replica) is nowhere near jordan(authentic shelby cobera) kobe is FINISH and at kobe age jordan was still pissing on league at WILL WHOEVER you day dreaming about being better than MJ and im still waiting to see this player he better look good doing it inflight with hangtime palming the ball with ease dunking on real 7fters and play on ball D everysingle nite

AIRMAR72
05-04-2012, 11:53 AM
Most fans today do not appreciate just how much better the players were 30 years ago. More fundamental, better footwork, and frankly a better game. Less teams, less slots for dogs. Plus all the muscling up I think has hurt players flexibility and fluidity.

Heck, 12th guy off the bench on the Celtics 1984 Championship team is probably better then today's 8th. I mean, go find me someone even as good as Kelly Tripucka offensively in today's game. And he was just OK. Today he'd drop 30 per. Adrian Dantley. Sick players who'd be mega stars today.
thanks for being honest,these young kids just DONT know, guys backthan had go to MOVES trick shots that really works when they use it today NBA player dont have that in their game

NYflightboy
05-04-2012, 12:15 PM
Don't get me wrong. Even as a Knicks fan and watching him torment us every year Jordan is one of idols. I started watching basketball because of him. I memories as early as 3 yrs old watching Jordan play and wanting to be him.

And to be honest I can't stand Kobe as much as the next guy but when I watch him play. His moves, the fakes, the fadeaways, etc, it reminds me of MJ.

Like I said before MJ is by far the greatest basketball player that ever walked the planet. Not even close. Just his competitiveness and will to win is unmatched and legendary.

But to say that Kobe's style of game isn't eerily similar to MJ's, I mean, I don't know what you're watching.

And don't give give that FT attempt **** as evidence that he didn't get calls. You must've never watched him in the playoffs against the Knicks. And he definitely did ***** at refs.

My dad's friend who is a long time Bulls fan called me to talk **** as the Knicks were getting mauled in game 1. We were talking about Lebron's flopping/*****ing. And he was like, "Don't get me wrong I love the guy but Michael was a cry baby too" And then we started talking about guys like Kobe and Reggie Miller who did the same ****.

Anyways, back to MJ getting calls. In those days you were allowed to play defense. I remember they aired the Double Nickel game on MSG network. I was watching with my friend who started watching basketball post-Jordan.

He kept calling out fouls that were never called. He's so accustomed to watching today's soft NBA.

It was a much more physical game but Jordan did get a lot of call or non-calls in his favor. For example: His final shot as a Bull against the Jazz was a blatant push-off! Though I would have been upset if they called that on him.

AIRMAR72
05-04-2012, 12:40 PM
Sir, I'm more than twice your age and I saw young and old Jordan, as well as young and old Kareem. What you offer is speculation at best.

Yes, Jordan was still a phenomenal player at 35, but he wasn't scoring 81 points in a game, or 60+ through 3 quarters. Young Jordan could, but not 35 year old long in the tooth and heavy mileage Jordan. Father Time had already started to wear down Superman at that point. The retirements weren't just because of his lack of interest in the game, or due to some mysterious personal matter. Jordan was a weary man.

wuteva!! YOU lying olman jordan being weary you got jokes posting fairytale rubbish

Chronz
05-04-2012, 01:28 PM
Kobe is the closest thing to Jordan. If you disagree I want you to bring up another player who is closer to Jordan than Kobe.

If you cant see similarities between Kobe's and Jordan's game, then you should probably visit your eye doctor. The fact that Kobe and Jordan play so much alike makes them comparable, but it does NOT, I repeat does NOT make Kobe better than Jordan in any way, shape or form.

Relax, no one is touching Jordan your idol and god. So far he is still the undisputed best player in the history of the NBA. However I cant wait for the day when some guy comes out and takes a **** on all the Jordan's TS%, PER, WinShares and all other stats. I cant wait to hear the answer of some of the stat geeks on this forum. I truly believe that if a guy comes out with amazing stats, more MVPs than Jordan and the same amount or more of rings, people would still call Jordan the GOAT no matter what and find other bs reasons to support their claim.

Again, Kobe < Jordan, but Kobe is the closest thing to Jordan thus far. No other player got closer to Jordans level. This does not however mean that Kobe is close to Jordan, he is just CLOSER than any other player in the history of the damn game, thus far.
Who are you talking to? Again you can compare ANYONE you want, Kobe is the closest in matching him in aesthetic similarities and championships won, Im not seeing the big deal about that. Its not like there havent been superior players to Kobe outside of MJ so why would I care about comparing styles? I dont, which is why its fine to compare whoever you want under those guidelines.

MassoDio
05-04-2012, 01:35 PM
What??! Gadzooks!!! Cry blasphemy!!!! Cry sacrilege!!!! No, no, no, you cannot dare utter that word ("team") in reference to their god.

This is kind of comically hypocritical coming from a Laker/Kobe fan.

Scenario:

Someone says: "Kobe is not the best player in the NBA anymore. Other guys have passed him."

Laker Mantra for those comments: "Check the rings." <----Team accomplishment

But Jordan fans aren't allowed to use team achievements as an argument when alluding to his greatness, because that is CRAZY! Just comical.

MassoDio
05-04-2012, 01:43 PM
As far as the original post....

Jordan after the age of 30 was just as dominating...just in different ways. He no longer over-powered everyone with his athletic gifts. He learned to play smarter. He learned how to continue to play efficient without taxing his body as much. His Basketball IQ was off the charts.

Michael always had one advantage, young or old; he was going to destroy you mentally. He was going to beat you into submission with his play.

As far as the Kobe vs. Michael comparison...

Yes, Kobe's style of play is the most like Jordan's.
However, what most people compare are not styles, rather dominance, effect on the game as a competitor and player, and pure basketball greatness. Again, not styles. And in that comparison, it isn't close. I think (correct me if I am wrong Chronz) what Chronz was elluding to in the statement of it not being close.

RaiderLakersA's
05-04-2012, 03:15 PM
This is kind of comically hypocritical coming from a Laker/Kobe fan.

Scenario:

Someone says: "Kobe is not the best player in the NBA anymore. Other guys have passed him."

Laker Mantra for those comments: "Check the rings." <----Team accomplishment

But Jordan fans aren't allowed to use team achievements as an argument when alluding to his greatness, because that is CRAZY! Just comical.

You assume that I am a "typical" Lakers/Kobe fan. I am not. I happily concede that he is not the best player in the NBA at this juncture. Unlike most, that distinction never mattered to me. I was introduced to basketball at a time when team play and team performance is what counted most. I keep those values first and foremost still. I am thrilled that Kobe is no longer #1 -- and my, look at how much better the team is performing now that being top player is no longer his chief concern.

So yes, while I may respond in snarky fashion, "Count the rings," I am not necessarily referring to just the ones on Kobe's fingers. :D

MassoDio
05-04-2012, 03:17 PM
You assume that I am a "typical" Lakers/Kobe fan. I am not. I happily concede that he is not the best player in the NBA at this juncture. Unlike most, that distinction never mattered to me. I was introduced to basketball at a time when team play and team performance is what counted most. I keep those values first and foremost still.

So yes, while I may respond in snarky fashion, "Count the rings," I am not necessarily referring to just the ones on Kobe's fingers. :D

I meant no ill will towards you personally. I just found the comment wildly, and comically hypocritical coming from a Laker fan on these boards in general. It just really struck me as funny.

RaiderLakersA's
05-04-2012, 03:19 PM
wuteva!! YOU lying olman jordan being weary you got jokes posting fairytale rubbish

All I can tell you is do some research. You'll find out that Jordan didn't just retire just for the hell of it. He had ample reasons, fatigue (mental and or physical) being one of them. Check your history books, sonny! :D

MassoDio
05-04-2012, 04:08 PM
All I can tell you is do some research. You'll find out that Jordan didn't just retire just for the hell of it. He had ample reasons, fatigue (mental and or physical) being one of them. Check your history books, sonny! :D

This is true. Not to mention his Father's murder.

He said at the time that his Father always wanted to see him play baseball.

smiddy012
05-04-2012, 04:17 PM
So you're saying no one will EVER do it?

Yes. The odds are damn near astronomical for it to be repeated, even if it's a scrub who happens to be in the right place time after time after time after time.


Team achievements for the win, when we compare players.........

Right, the fact that the Bulls with MJ went 24-0 with HCA in the playoffs should not be credited to MJ at all, just the team. Just like it is simply a correlation, not a relation that MJ put up such monstrous personal stats early in his career, even when his team was bad, the team is still the reason he did so well. The fact that MJ, AND ONLY MJ, never lost a playoff series with HCA should not be attributed to the individual... even though he's the ONLY individual player to ever do it... :facepalm:

Feel free to look up his personal stats if you wish, it takes a crazy man to deny 24-0 when you have his actual stats for context. And yes, his team does deserve some credit for 24-0 with HCA, half of it at best.

LakersMaster24
05-04-2012, 07:00 PM
dont be a FOOL kobe(shelby cobera replica) is nowhere near jordan(authentic shelby cobera) kobe is FINISH and at kobe age jordan was still pissing on league at WILL WHOEVER you day dreaming about being better than MJ and im still waiting to see this player he better look good doing it inflight with hangtime palming the ball with ease dunking on real 7fters and play on ball D everysingle nite

:laugh2: Typical Jordan nut hugger.

Where in my post did I say Kobe was close to Jordan? Work on your reading comprehension cool guy. I said Kobe is not close to Jordan but CLOSER than anyone else.

LakersMaster24
05-04-2012, 07:01 PM
Yes. The odds are damn near astronomical for it to be repeated, even if it's a scrub who happens to be in the right place time after time after time after time.



Right, the fact that the Bulls with MJ went 24-0 with HCA in the playoffs should not be credited to MJ at all, just the team. Just like it is simply a correlation, not a relation that MJ put up such monstrous personal stats early in his career, even when his team was bad, the team is still the reason he did so well. The fact that MJ, AND ONLY MJ, never lost a playoff series with HCA should not be attributed to the individual... even though he's the ONLY individual player to ever do it... :facepalm:

Feel free to look up his personal stats if you wish, it takes a crazy man to deny 24-0 when you have his actual stats for context. And yes, his team does deserve some credit for 24-0 with HCA, half of it at best.

So going with your logic, if a player was the leader of a certain team that means the championships and all the playoff wins can be mostly credited to him?

LakersMaster24
05-04-2012, 07:05 PM
Who are you talking to? Again you can compare ANYONE you want, Kobe is the closest in matching him in aesthetic similarities and championships won, Im not seeing the big deal about that. Its not like there havent been superior players to Kobe outside of MJ so why would I care about comparing styles? I dont, which is why its fine to compare whoever you want under those guidelines.

Kobe is the closest to Jordan in offensive Arsenal. Young Kobe (2001-2009) was almost as good as a defender as Jordan. Its not just the turn around fadeaway that makes them similar and other Jordan patented shots that Kobe learned that makes Kobe comparable to Jordan. COMPARABLE. Not better. Not close. But the closest and more comparable than any other player in the history of the game. You can have players better than Kobe like Russell, Magic, Kareem, but you cant compare any of them to MJ. If there is a person who can be compared to Michael Jordan, that man is Kobe Bean Bryant.

AIRMAR72
05-04-2012, 07:51 PM
All I can tell you is do some research. You'll find out that Jordan didn't just retire just for the hell of it. He had ample reasons, fatigue (mental and or physical) being one of them. Check your history books, sonny! :D

it was the attention from fans and the media that drove him away plus he got bored with the game but he was never weary the man played plenty games without sleep and still drop 30

AIRMAR72
05-04-2012, 07:57 PM
Kobe is the closest to Jordan in offensive Arsenal. Young Kobe (2001-2009) was almost as good as a defender as Jordan. Its not just the turn around fadeaway that makes them similar and other Jordan patented shots that Kobe learned that makes Kobe comparable to Jordan. COMPARABLE. Not better. Not close. But the closest and more comparable than any other player in the history of the game. You can have players better than Kobe like Russell, Magic, Kareem, but you cant compare any of them to MJ. If there is a person who can be compared to Michael Jordan, that man is Kobe Bean Bryant.
you need to STOP there is no comparison kobe NEVER once average a block for full a season never been a lockdown defender so STOP IT

valade16
05-04-2012, 07:58 PM
Let's compare:

PER:

MJ: 31.7
MJ: 31.6
MJ: 31.2
MJ: 31.1
MJ: 29.8
MJ: 29.7
MJ: 29.4
KB: 28.0
MJ: 27.8
MJ: 27.7
MJ: 27.5
KB: 26.2
KB: 26.1
MJ: 25.8
MJ: 25.2

WS/48:

MJ: .321
MJ: .317
MJ: .308
MJ: .292
MJ: .285
MJ: .283
MJ: .274
MJ: .270
MJ: .247
MJ: .238
KB: .224
MJ: .213
KB: .210
KB: .210

TS%:

MJ: .614
MJ: .606
MJ: .605
MJ: .603
MJ: .592
MJ: .582
MJ: .579
MJ: .567
MJ: .564
MJ: .562
MJ: .533
MJ: .533
KB: .503
KB: .502
KB: .502
MJ: .493
KB: .491
MJ: .491

PPG:

MJ: 37.1
KB: 35.4
MJ: 35.0
MJ: 33.6
MJ: 32.6
MJ: 32.5
KB: 31.6
MJ: 31.5
MJ: 30.4
MJ: 30.1
KB: 30.0
MJ: 29.6
MJ: 28.7
KB: 28.5
KB: 28.3
MJ: 28.2

The comparison begins and ends with style of play. But there are hundreds of kids who model their style of play after Jordan in High Schools all across America, we don't compare them to Jordan, because they aren't as good. And neither is Kobe. Plain and Simple...

Chronz
05-04-2012, 08:27 PM
Kobe is the closest to Jordan in offensive Arsenal. Young Kobe (2001-2009) was almost as good as a defender as Jordan. Its not just the turn around fadeaway that makes them similar and other Jordan patented shots that Kobe learned that makes Kobe comparable to Jordan. COMPARABLE. Not better. Not close. But the closest and more comparable than any other player in the history of the game. You can have players better than Kobe like Russell, Magic, Kareem, but you cant compare any of them to MJ. If there is a person who can be compared to Michael Jordan, that man is Kobe Bean Bryant.
Thats my point, thats all I care about. I would rather rival MJ in overall impact than be a flawed carbon copy of any 1 player. Things like offensive arsenal are purely for aesthetics, and under those guidelines you can compare whoever you want, its ultimately trivial and meaningless. Under those guidelines I would actually say a young Wade rivals a young MJ more closely than anyone.

LakersMaster24
05-04-2012, 08:35 PM
Kobe is the closest to Jordan in offensive Arsenal. Young Kobe (2001-2009) was almost as good as a defender as Jordan. Its not just the turn around fadeaway that makes them similar and other Jordan patented shots that Kobe learned that makes Kobe comparable to Jordan. COMPARABLE. Not better. Not close. But the closest and more comparable than any other player in the history of the game. You can have players better than Kobe like Russell, Magic, Kareem, but you cant compare any of them to MJ. If there is a person who can be compared to Michael Jordan, that man is Kobe Bean Bryant.
Thats my point, thats all I care about. I would rather rival MJ in overall impact than be a flawed carbon copy of any 1 player. Things like offensive arsenal are purely for aesthetics, and under those guidelines you can compare whoever you want, its ultimately trivial and meaningless. Under those guidelines I would actually say a young Wade rivals a young MJ more closely than anyone.

I never knew that a Top 10 player of all time was considered a flawed copy...

LakersMaster24
05-04-2012, 08:40 PM
you need to STOP there is no comparison kobe NEVER once average a block for full a season never been a lockdown defender so STOP IT

:facepalm: Since when do blocks count as the only thing to account for defense? You are an idiot buddy if you think Kobe was never a lockdown defender. The biggest Kobe haters on this board would tell you that Kobe was an amazing defender in his prime.

Chronz
05-04-2012, 08:49 PM
I never knew that a Top 10 player of all time was considered a flawed copy...
LOL how could you not?

smiddy012
05-04-2012, 08:52 PM
So going with your logic, if a player was the leader of a certain team that means the championships and all the playoff wins can be mostly credited to him?

You don't follow my logic.

LakersMaster24
05-05-2012, 12:51 AM
So going with your logic, if a player was the leader of a certain team that means the championships and all the playoff wins can be mostly credited to him?

You don't follow my logic.

Or is it by one of those things that only applies to Jordan?

smiddy012
05-05-2012, 01:11 AM
Or is it by one of those things that only applies to Jordan?

No, logic applies to more things than Jordan.

MickeyMgl
05-05-2012, 03:49 AM
I will admit its closer when you talk about legacy because of the fact that MJ called it quits several times, but even then its not even close.

Oddly enough, I think that legacy is what's most unreachable for Bryant, since he doesn't really have a chance to match Jordan's individual awards and decorations.

MickeyMgl
05-05-2012, 03:59 AM
This is kind of comically hypocritical coming from a Laker/Kobe fan.

Scenario:

Someone says: "Kobe is not the best player in the NBA anymore. Other guys have passed him."

Laker Mantra for those comments: "Check the rings." <----Team accomplishment

But Jordan fans aren't allowed to use team achievements as an argument when alluding to his greatness, because that is CRAZY! Just comical.

Valid point, but it's kind of a chicken and egg thing. This argument was being used for Jordan first. Team achievements are the #1 thing Jordan fans cite whenever somebody does something individually that he never did.

MickeyMgl
05-05-2012, 04:02 AM
As far as the Kobe vs. Michael comparison...

Yes, Kobe's style of play is the most like Jordan's.
However, what most people compare are not styles, rather dominance, effect on the game as a competitor and player, and pure basketball greatness. Again, not styles. And in that comparison, it isn't close. I think (correct me if I am wrong Chronz) what Chronz was elluding to in the statement of it not being close.

Personally, when I compare them, the style thing is kind of an interesting novelty. I don't compare them in terms of career so much, because Kobe didn't and doesn't really have a chance to match MJ in individual hardware and awards. I compare them in terms of skills, and those are close.

MickeyMgl
05-05-2012, 04:10 AM
it was the attention from fans and the media that drove him away plus he got bored with the game but he was never weary the man played plenty games without sleep and still drop 30

How convenient. Only two teams in the modern long-playoff NBA have managed to play into the Finals four years in a row, but Michael Jordan didn't even try, not because he was tired - like any normal human NBA player - but because he was bored. He never tires. He never sleeps. He is a machine. :clap:

MickeyMgl
05-05-2012, 04:15 AM
Let's compare:

TS%:

MJ: .614
MJ: .606
MJ: .605
MJ: .603
MJ: .592
MJ: .582
MJ: .579
MJ: .567
MJ: .564
MJ: .562
MJ: .533
MJ: .533
KB: .503
KB: .502
KB: .502
MJ: .493
KB: .491
MJ: .491


These numbers are wrong.

smiddy012
05-05-2012, 05:49 AM
How convenient. Only two teams in the modern long-playoff NBA have managed to play into the Finals four years in a row, but Michael Jordan didn't even try, not because he was tired - like any normal human NBA player - but because he was bored. He never tires. He never sleeps. He is a machine. :clap:

Q: Why do you think he retired to play baseball?

A: Because basketball was too easy for him :cool:

RaiderLakersA's
05-05-2012, 01:02 PM
How convenient. Only two teams in the modern long-playoff NBA have managed to play into the Finals four years in a row, but Michael Jordan didn't even try, not because he was tired - like any normal human NBA player - but because he was bored. He never tires. He never sleeps. He is a machine. :clap:

Just curious, what are those two teams?

BigCityofDreams
05-05-2012, 04:25 PM
The fact that ppl whether it's on here or in the media to discuss the careers of both players says a lot.

Chronz
05-05-2012, 05:24 PM
This is kind of comically hypocritical coming from a Laker/Kobe fan.

Scenario:

Someone says: "Kobe is not the best player in the NBA anymore. Other guys have passed him."

Laker Mantra for those comments: "Check the rings." <----Team accomplishment

But Jordan fans aren't allowed to use team achievements as an argument when alluding to his greatness, because that is CRAZY! Just comical.

Valid point, but it's kind of a chicken and egg thing. This argument was being used for Jordan first. Team achievements are the #1 thing Jordan fans cite whenever somebody does something individually that he never did.
That argument doesn't work against MJ because he has the best stats in the history of the game, THEN he started wining titles while STILL pouring it on statistically.

With Kobe it was always one or the other, and always in a lesser form.

Chronz
05-05-2012, 05:25 PM
I will admit its closer when you talk about legacy because of the fact that MJ called it quits several times, but even then its not even close.

Oddly enough, I think that legacy is what's most unreachable for Bryant, since he doesn't really have a chance to match Jordan's individual awards and decorations.
He could get more overall points, allnba, and chips.

Not sure what else you would think he could reach considering his best days have come and gone and weren't even close to MJ.

Longevity is the only shot fan boys have and that will be Kobes legacy

Chronz
05-05-2012, 05:27 PM
The fact that ppl whether it's on here or in the media to discuss the careers of both players says a lot.
Says we really miss mj

Chronz
05-05-2012, 05:31 PM
As far as the Kobe vs. Michael comparison...

Yes, Kobe's style of play is the most like Jordan's.
However, what most people compare are not styles, rather dominance, effect on the game as a competitor and player, and pure basketball greatness. Again, not styles. And in that comparison, it isn't close. I think (correct me if I am wrong Chronz) what Chronz was elluding to in the statement of it not being close.

Personally, when I compare them, the style thing is kind of an interesting novelty. I don't compare them in terms of career so much, because Kobe didn't and doesn't really have a chance to match MJ in individual hardware and awards. I compare them in terms of skills, and those are close.
style and skill go hand in hand. You can only play a similar style if you have similar skills/talent.

BigCityofDreams
05-05-2012, 06:39 PM
Says we really miss mj

Or that Kobe is the only one worthy of even being talked about with Jordan. MJ said it himself. Not saying Kobe is better because he's not.

MickeyMgl
05-07-2012, 07:15 PM
Q: Why do you think he retired to play baseball?

Fatigue, just like every other player who has played into three straight Finals.

MickeyMgl
05-07-2012, 07:17 PM
Just curious, what are those two teams?

Lakers 82-85
Celtics 84-87

MickeyMgl
05-07-2012, 07:20 PM
That argument doesn't work against MJ because he has the best stats in the history of the game, THEN he started wining titles while STILL pouring it on statistically.

With Kobe it was always one or the other, and always in a lesser form.

81 > 69 (in OT)

MickeyMgl
05-07-2012, 07:22 PM
He could get more overall points, allnba, and chips.

Not sure what else you would think he could reach considering his best days have come and gone and weren't even close to MJ.


MVPs are part of the legacy I'm saying he doesn't have a chance to reach.

Jumi
05-07-2012, 07:39 PM
Kobe makes it a debate so that's all a player could ask for. Lebron could be better than Jordan, but only time will tale. Kobe isn't better and it's not a sign of disrespect. Mike was other worldly for a LONG time. Not good, but GREAT! He was awesome, and that's probably the second time I've used that word in my life!

EnWhyKay
05-07-2012, 09:39 PM
Kobe makes it a debate so that's all a player could ask for. Lebron could be better than Jordan, but only time will tale. Kobe isn't better and it's not a sign of disrespect. Mike was other worldly for a LONG time. Not good, but GREAT! He was awesome, and that's probably the second time I've used that word in my life!

In order for Lebron to be better than Mike.. He would have to get a reliable consistent and unstoppable midrange jumpshot/game.. Then use that to win rings.. Also he would have to be automatic in the clutch and hit big shots during his run.. Lebron has a long long long long looooooooong way to go before u can even mention him in the same breath as Mike..

Kobe even if he gets more rings cant touch Mike for the simple fact... He wasnt the alpha dog on his first three rings.. And he has 2 finals losses.. Jordan is 6-0 in the NBA Finals.. With 6 Finals MVP's.. That alone takes him out of the running in my eyes..

C-Wick925
05-07-2012, 10:12 PM
I think jordan could still put up 15 a game with as good of a shot as he had..