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rapsjaysfan88
05-01-2012, 05:25 PM
seriously, near the bottom of every offensive category and what 5 of our 9 guys with an obp near or under 300. hitter after hitter turning into crap under him, snider, jose, lind, hill, etc, etc.. with word coming out of LA that with there struggles their hitting coach on the way out if things don't improve. my question is how long does toronto put up with this garbage hitting coach and his horrible hitting philosphy? please dont bring up jose as his greatest accomplishement because im convinced it was cito and not murphys influence that helped him.

town123
05-01-2012, 05:39 PM
I know it's early in the year, but, since I've been calling for his head for 2 years now.....

Hello Chad Mottola

JaysFan87
05-01-2012, 05:45 PM
Hitting coaches have little do with the success of hitters. Hitters are in the big leagues because they have done before and have a track record. And also murphy was here the last 2 years when jose became jose so he didnt help him then and now he is hurting him. ANd lind has sucked for 4 of the past 5 years. Nonetheless the hitters will come out of it. Its essentially the same hitters as last year except for Johnson and Rasmus.

Abdul Mutalib
05-01-2012, 06:23 PM
yea his rope might have shortened from the stagnant offense thus far. i'd like to think there are better hitting approaches then just swing early and often.

farrell and murphy seem to be on different pages in terms of hitting philosophies so to hear murphy flip flop may be confusing to some players, who knows.

i kno jose is a smart player and really studies pitchers but i think he is just thinking too hard and trying to make unnecessary adjustments like trying to hit the outside borderline pitch the other way. but he's also popping up a lot pitches he woulda homer'd the past 2 years.

craigerlee
05-01-2012, 06:24 PM
I wouldn't object to him getting the axe, but I do think a lot of the problem falls on the hitters. However I would like to see more hitters make a conscious effort to hit the ball the other way, it feels like everyone except for say Lawrie and Escobar seem to try and pull the ball every at bat. I've also been noticing most managers shifting for almost all our hitters, so the fact no one wants to go the other way doesn't bode well. I think Murphy's tutelage has got something to do with this team being so pull happy.

Also whatever happened to Rajai Davis approach at the plate I blame solely on Murphy. I remember the offseason we got him them talking about how Murphy changed his swing so he can hit for more power. Well news flash Rajai Davis has no power so I don't know why he's trying to hit for it. Rajai was adequate at getting on base before he got here, now his only use is marginally replacing Thames terrible D in LF late in games and pinch running.

FLeays
05-01-2012, 06:43 PM
Q-I think they should do something about the hitting coach, like replace him. What do you think ???


A-Many times, a major-league hitting coach is the one to take the fall for a team's failure to hit. Admittedly, it was a tough transition for Dwayne Murphy from Cito Gaston's philosophy where a 10-pitch at-bat, as Adam Lind put it this spring, would draw Gaston's response of “What took you so long,” to the John Farrell response of high-fives all around for wearing a starting pitcher down, even if you end up making an out.

Farrell believes that the weakest point of any team is its middle relief and if you can get to that early then you have a better chance of winning. Murphy had to convince some of his same pupils, the ones he had earlier convinced to be uber-aggressive under Cito to change their philosophy again. It's not easy and Murphy probably has the easiest target on his back if the offence continues to founder. But who knows, by the next mailbag they may all have turned it around and the Jays offence could be on a significant roll.


http://thestar.blogs.com/baseball/

I posted this from Griffin's mailbag in the Star in another thread. His response to the question may have some insight.

Personally I agree with the poster that Gaston and Murphy (don't forget Gene Tenace) were all one mind when it came to hitting and the results were terrific. Their brand of baseball (with the HR's) was much more exciting. I am honestly not a huge fan of Farell's 10-pitch "work the count" approach. It is succesfull when you got guys like Youk, Ortiz, Gonz and company in your lineup. The Jays need to create their own identity with generating offense which is what they had with Gaston's "wait for your pitch" approach. Even Tampa has their own identity which seems to be wrecking havoc on the basepaths.

GNick
05-01-2012, 06:44 PM
seriously, near the bottom of every offensive category and what 5 of our 9 guys with an obp near or under 300. hitter after hitter turning into crap under him, snider, jose, lind, hill, etc, etc.. with word coming out of LA that with there struggles their hitting coach on the way out if things don't improve. my question is how long does toronto put up with this garbage hitting coach and his horrible hitting philosphy? please dont bring up jose as his greatest accomplishement because im convinced it was cito and not murphys influence that helped him.

not sure it is his fault. Many hitters taking good piches trying to run up the pitch count. If behind 0-1 or 1-2 before they swing makes a .300 hitter a .230 hitter

2009mvp
05-01-2012, 07:03 PM
This is all such ******** to me. You know what Murphy needs? You know what Farrell needs? They need 2 things, better players and the good players they do have to start performing to their abilities. Simple. It's not Dwayne Murphy's fault that Adam Lind and JP Arencibia aren't good major league hitters, and it's not Dwayne Murphy's fault that Jose Bautista and Yunel Escobar happen to be struggling. It's such a lazy fan cop out to blame the hitting coach (although I totally understand the frustration with Murphy and his comments about the approach he wants guys to take) when realistically the problem is that the players on the field just aren't good enough. Again that's not on Dwayne Murphy, that's not on John Farrell, it's on Alex Anthopolous.

nithanyo
05-01-2012, 07:06 PM
http://thestar.blogs.com/baseball/

I posted this from Griffin's mailbag in the Star in another thread. His response to the question may have some insight.

Personally I agree with the poster that Gaston and Murphy (don't forget Gene Tenace) were all one mind when it came to hitting and the results were terrific. Their brand of baseball (with the HR's) was much more exciting. I am honestly not a huge fan of Farell's 10-pitch "work the count" approach. It is succesfull when you got guys like Youk, Ortiz, Gonz and company in your lineup. The Jays need to create their own identity with generating offense which is what they had with Gaston's "wait for your pitch" approach. Even Tampa has their own identity which seems to be wrecking havoc on the basepaths.

i swear everyone here hated Gastons approach. But it helped the likes of Bautista, Wells, Lind and Buck so i never really complained.

However the hitting coach plays a very small role. Their job is to recognize flaws and point it out to the hitter. Cus at the end of the day its up to the batter to take it in or not. Its also the batter that goes into the box sees the pitch and decides to swing at it or not. Mottola would have 0 impact on this team.

As for the approach every player should work on their specialty. i.e. escobar is know for going oppo and up the middle, davis is known to be a slap hitter with a ton of infield singles, bautista is known for working counts till he gets inside fastballs etc. No one mindset will fit every batter

mtf
05-01-2012, 10:25 PM
I'm not going to agree that Murphy needs to be fired, especially a month into the season, but I will say that it's legitimate for others to criticize the hitting coach if the hitters are not playing up to their potential. Ultimately, the hitting coach's only responsibility is to get them to hit. When they aren't doing that, it's fair game to call him out. Throwing childish insults around at those who would open the debate about the hitting coach is really pathetic though.

bomber0104
05-01-2012, 11:31 PM
you guys know where i stand on this.. i fully believe that Murphy is a huge part of the reason why Hill and Lind aren't currently start players for this team

nithanyo
05-01-2012, 11:49 PM
you guys know where i stand on this.. i fully believe that Murphy is a huge part of the reason why Hill and Lind aren't currently start players for this team

i thought it was their inability to hit. :confused:

JMac4PM
05-02-2012, 12:00 AM
I hate Murphy and his pull happy style. Look at the better teams in the league and they all work the count and use the whole field.

bomber0104
05-02-2012, 12:26 AM
i thought it was their inability to hit. :confused:

they hit fine when they first came up from the minors

nithanyo
05-02-2012, 02:33 AM
they hit fine when they first came up from the minors

Oh bautista hit like **** when he came up. EE hit like **** when he came up. But they hit well after Murphy took over.

Lind and Hill had their breakout season while he was in charge. Lind has actually stated that Murphy was a big part of his breakout season.

Toronto fans like to find a scapegoat when the team sucks. Often its the managers and coaches that fall victim to it. Farell and Murphy just so happens to be yours.

I also think Murphy was the hitting coach when the D-Backs won.

armchairgm
05-02-2012, 04:53 AM
Easier to can one guy "hitting coach" then all the guys in a rut. Personally I'd love to bring in Paul Molitar but I'm not sure if he's still involved with the Twins in some capacity.

1hardcore
05-02-2012, 05:53 AM
you guys know where i stand on this.. i fully believe that Murphy is a huge part of the reason why Hill and Lind aren't currently start players for this team

I agree.


How can you have 1 year wonders like those guys

wamco
05-02-2012, 06:59 AM
the only hitting coach that brings a little something special to the table is mark mcgwire.

Ragin' Cajun
05-02-2012, 08:26 AM
The hitting coaches can only do so much, they don't go out there and swing at bad pitches and have bad at bats.. So my question is when this team gets hot and guys are hitting, who's head do you call for next? We are just over 20 games in with a 13-11 record. Baseball is a game of patience people save your crying and moaning if this team is actually in trouble down the road. A little more optimism it's what's needed for this team. Not new coaches.

KaiserSose
05-02-2012, 09:46 AM
It is not Dwayne Murphy's fault that Adam Lind and J.P Arencibia are terrible hitters.

bartron_44
05-02-2012, 09:57 AM
Dear lord...this again.

Pretty much every guy struggling has had great success in the past working with Murphy. Bautista went through slumps like this before in 2010. He started off the same way in April and slumped again in June. We all know how that season turned out..so stop blaming Murphy for Jose simply being in a slump. I would bet a lot of money they have already told Jose what they feel he is doing wrong, but he can't force Jose to keep his eye on the baseball.


Murphy now has 2 new hitters on pace for career years in EE and Johnson (maybe 3 if they let Mathis keep playing), and 2 young hitters looking pretty solid right now in Eric Thames, and Brett Lawrie. Even the best of hitter go through slumps..and Jose is by no means the only one off to a slow start this season around the league.

Over their respective last 10 games:

Thames- .324
EE- .314
Johnson- .313
JPA- .313
Lawrie- .297
Mathis- .294

Rasmus- .156
Escobar- .171
Lind- .156
Bautista- .167


I trust Escobar and Bautista will turn things around...but I think we need to get rid of Lind...and the leash on Rasmus has to start getting pretty short if he keeps stinking it up at the dish. Gose can already provide us with better D then he can, so if he can't hit, he has gots to go..

darth helmet
05-02-2012, 10:56 AM
the only hitting coach that brings a little something special to the table is mark mcgwire.

As in a needle full of HGH? ;)

wamco
05-02-2012, 02:31 PM
they call it veteran leadership and "experience"

bartron_44
05-02-2012, 03:36 PM
Escobar went 3 for 5 today with a double and triple, EE blasted out another Hr (3 run shot this time), Johnson blasted another 2 run shot, JPA went 2 for 4 with a double, Thames went 1 for 3 with a double and a BB.

We just took 2 out of 3 from the best team in baseball (imo), and have scored 7+ runs in 4 of our last 5 games...with the only blemish being that dominating start by Darvish. I think it may be time to step back from the ledge, and simply give the Orioles credit for pitching us tough.

Should be interesting to see how we fare against the angels pitching staff. We won't have Romero, so the kids are gonna have to step up.

es0terik
05-02-2012, 04:05 PM
Dear lord...this again.

Pretty much every guy struggling has had great success in the past working with Murphy. Bautista went through slumps like this before in 2010. He started off the same way in April and slumped again in June. We all know how that season turned out

Not saying I disagree with what you're trying to say but come on... Bautista was the best players in the majors in April. At the end of the month he was hitting .366 with an OBP of .532 and .780 SLG. He hit 9 home runs and stole 4 bases and won AL Player of the Month for April (and again for May). April 2011 was the best month of his career.

darth helmet
05-02-2012, 04:26 PM
Escobar went 3 for 5 today with a double and triple, EE blasted out another Hr (3 run shot this time), Johnson blasted another 2 run shot, JPA went 2 for 4 with a double, Thames went 1 for 3 with a double and a BB.

We just took 2 out of 3 from the best team in baseball (imo), and have scored 7+ runs in 4 of our last 5 games...with the only blemish being that dominating start by Darvish. I think it may be time to step back from the ledge, and simply give the Orioles credit for pitching us tough.

Should be interesting to see how we fare against the angels pitching staff. We won't have Romero, so the kids are gonna have to step up.

Not that I'm promoting Murphy's demise but hitting against the Rangers isn't really a sign that the Jays can hit consistently throughout the year. Outside of Darvish it's a rather weak rotation.

I do however believe that the onus isn't entirely on Murphy. I'm of the mind that the players need to take some responsibility for their performance. I'm also of the mind that without having first hand knowledge of what actually goes on behind the scenes I'm not in any position to truly judge how good a coach Murphy really is or if he's really the one at fault for the Jays lack of offence. But hey, we're all fans and judging everyone on the team based on the on-field production is all we can go by so I can certainly understand why people may point fingers in his direction.

FLeays
05-02-2012, 04:52 PM
Not saying I disagree with what you're trying to say but come on... Bautista was the best players in the majors in April. At the end of the month he was hitting .366 with an OBP of .532 and .780 SLG. He hit 9 home runs and stole 4 bases and won AL Player of the Month for April (and again for May). April 2011 was the best month of his career.

Lookup Bautista's April 2010 splits.

es0terik
05-02-2012, 05:15 PM
I was talking about 2011. His April 2010 is irrelevant because he was still transforming into a good hitter from a journeyman scrub back then.

mtf
05-02-2012, 05:48 PM
It is not Dwayne Murphy's fault that Adam Lind and J.P Arencibia are terrible hitters.

What is your rationale for this statement? I think most would agree that the potential is present for Lind and Arencibia to be far better than they currently are.

It has to be shared responsibility between the individual player and the hitting coach. The hitting coach's job is to help them realize their potential, but he cannot go up to the plate with them.

I'm just wondering how you have determined that Murphy is void of any responsibility for Lind and Arencibia. And what about Travis Snider, Aaron Hill, Colby Rasmus. Are these players devoid of ability and Murphy is free of responsibility in those cases as well?

FLeays
05-02-2012, 06:48 PM
I was talking about 2011. His April 2010 is irrelevant because he was still transforming into a good hitter from a journeyman scrub back then.

I don't think his June 2010 or June 2011 splits were that good either. I think this is the first time he's had 2 consecutively bad months with Sept 2011 and April 2012.

Also he had a very good September 2009 month also. If he's still struggling by the end of June then I'd start wondering.

GrumpyOldMan
05-03-2012, 07:56 AM
I dont think it's really fair to blame Murphy, but sometimes a new voice and approach can be just what the doctor ordered. I dont want to get rid of the guy for the sake of blaming someone, but at the same time it appears that something needs to change.

bartron_44
05-03-2012, 11:18 AM
I dont think it's really fair to blame Murphy, but sometimes a new voice and approach can be just what the doctor ordered. I dont want to get rid of the guy for the sake of blaming someone, but at the same time it appears that something needs to change.

Can you please clarify why you are making this statement?

Bautista and Escobar are really the only 2 hitters in our lineup that are having unexpected slow starts.

Lind has shown that 2009 was the abnormality, not the other 4 years where he has struggled. Sure he had 87 RBI's last year and 26 HR's, but a real clean up hitting first basemen probably would have had about 120 RBI's hitting behind Escobar and Bautista, so I don't consider last year a success by any stretch of the imagination.

JPA started off slow, but is hitting .333 over his last 11 games with 4 doubles 7 RBI's and only 6 K's.

Bautista has experienced slumps before early in the season (i.e in 2010 when he stunk in April and in June). Pretty much all hitters go through slumps at some point in the season....accept when they have career years like Jose did last year. To expect someone to hit 10 HR's with a batting avg over over .300 and an OBP over .400 every month just isn't realistic.

Last year Escobar went bad month/good month/bad month all season long. He had 2 months (and 8 games in September) with an OPS over .900, but he also struggled badly in August (.232/.293/.596). They mentioned something about Murphy telling him he was trying to hit the ball too much to straight away RF yesterday, and he responded by going 3-5 with a double and triple.
Hopefully that will get him going for another great May like last year.

KaiserSose
05-03-2012, 11:29 AM
What is your rationale for this statement? I think most would agree that the potential is present for Lind and Arencibia to be far better than they currently are.

It has to be shared responsibility between the individual player and the hitting coach. The hitting coach's job is to help them realize their potential, but he cannot go up to the plate with them.

I'm just wondering how you have determined that Murphy is void of any responsibility for Lind and Arencibia. And what about Travis Snider, Aaron Hill, Colby Rasmus. Are these players devoid of ability and Murphy is free of responsibility in those cases as well?

My rationale is that it's not the hitting coaches job to make bad hitters good. Clear things up? It is not hard for them to be better than they currently are. Moreover, we were talking about a few players struggling over a small sample size.

Travis' problem is pitch recognition more than mechanical. Murphy is not responsible for someone on a different team. Colby was in a slump.

In the end, SMALL SAMPLE SIZE.

adid727
05-03-2012, 01:34 PM
I wouldn't ask for Murphy's head. If we had signed fielder, and we are going into june, and the team is still struggling, then i would fire him, but he has no fielder so no reason to say we should be dominating every team right now. If you want him to paint a masterpiece, then give him the right tools and colors to do so. Don't give him crayons and ask for a picasso.

town123
05-03-2012, 04:21 PM
I wouldn't ask for Murphy's head. If we had signed fielder, and we are going into june, and the team is still struggling, then i would fire him, but he has no fielder so no reason to say we should be dominating every team right now. If you want him to paint a masterpiece, then give him the right tools and colors to do so. Don't give him crayons and ask for a picasso.

So we should fire AA for giving Murphy duds to work with?

mtf
05-03-2012, 04:52 PM
My rationale is that it's not the hitting coaches job to make bad hitters good. Clear things up?

So it's your determination that Travis Snider, Colby Rasmus, Aaron Hill, Adam Lind and JP Arencibia are no-talent hacks that Dwayne Murphy has had to put up with. Things are cleared up.

adid727
05-03-2012, 05:52 PM
So we should fire AA for giving Murphy duds to work with?

How the hell did you get there. Ok, i guess i have to state the obvious. No, since AA is not the owner, he is also working with what rogers give him financially and he is doing a pretty good job. The fans need to be patient and understand that AA is trying to build a winner here through the draft and trades, not by signing big name free agents, not until, according to rogers, the team starts winning and we start having fans show up.

FLeays
05-03-2012, 08:51 PM
Jays are 6th in runs scored (3rd in AL). I think they have one of the worse BP ERA's though and leads the league in blown saves; can we talk about firing the bullpen coach?

mtf
05-03-2012, 09:07 PM
Jays are 6th in runs scored (3rd in AL). I think they have one of the worse BP ERA's though and leads the league in blown saves; can we talk about firing the bullpen coach?

Saying that they're 6th in the majors in runs scored is a bit misleading right? I mean, they could have the most runs in the majors and 50% of their runs (in theory) produced from fielding errors of the opposing team and it wouldn't mean that they have the best offense in baseball .

The Jays are 19th in AVG, (.243 (http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&players=0&sort=12,d)) 13th in OBP (.319 (http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&players=0&sort=13,d)) and 11th in SLG (.410 (http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&players=0&sort=14,d)). If this team is to compete at a high level, and not just compete to remain at .500 as they have for many years, the hitting needs to be better.

bartron_44
05-04-2012, 09:20 AM
Saying that they're 6th in the majors in runs scored is a bit misleading right? I mean, they could have the most runs in the majors and 50% of their runs (in theory) produced from fielding errors of the opposing team and it wouldn't mean that they have the best offense in baseball .

The Jays are 19th in AVG, (.243 (http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&players=0&sort=12,d)) 13th in OBP (.319 (http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&players=0&sort=13,d)) and 11th in SLG (.410 (http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&players=0&sort=14,d)). If this team is to compete at a high level, and not just compete to remain at .500 as they have for many years, the hitting needs to be better.



They are scoring so many runs because they are hitting HR's and hitting with RISP. The SLG% is down though because they are next to last in doubles. If we had a real #3 and/or #4 hitter over the first month, we would probably be 1st or 2nd in runs scored (and our AVG and OBP would look a lot better without our 2 worst hitters getting all those PA's). We are currently 5th (3rd in the AL)....and only 3 runs behind Boston for tops in the AL East.

The only thing wrong with our offense is Bautista is in a slump.......and that they let Adam Lind even play let alone hit 4th. Bautista will bounce back, but I still am a firm believer that Adam Lind needs to go, and we need a real first baseman.

wamco
05-04-2012, 09:30 AM
and I'd certainly hope they'd outscore NL teams without a DH.

KaiserSose
05-04-2012, 11:18 AM
So it's your determination that Travis Snider, Colby Rasmus, Aaron Hill, Adam Lind and JP Arencibia are no-talent hacks that Dwayne Murphy has had to put up with. Things are cleared up.

Learn to read.


Travis Snider's issue is not mechanical. Dwayne Murphy isn't allowed to stand behind the plate and whisper "it's a curveball in the dirt, don't swing!"

Colby is relatively new to the team but I understand they have already made an adjustment to his swing.

Aaron Hill is on the Diamondbacks so I don't see how that is relevant to Dwayne Murphy.

Adam Lind and J.P are what they are. Neither should really be starting on a decent team. I don't know what you think Dwayne Murphy can do? You want him to turn everyone into 50 HR, high OBP guys?

bartron_44
05-04-2012, 03:51 PM
and I'd certainly hope they'd outscore NL teams without a DH.

The Sox and Yanks have consistently scored well over 800 ..(sometimes 900) runs a year over the past 10 years....and there is a reason for that.

There are a lot of crappy offensive teams in both leagues, but 8 of the top 13 teams for runs scored last year came from the NL...so the DH doesn't matter...money does.


Red Sox
Yankees
Rangers
Phillies
Cardinals

These teams have paid a lot of money to get players who can produce runs...in very hitter friendly ball parks. There are the occasional TB's and SF's who do it through a bunch of top draft picks panning out at the same time, but they can't compete year after year with the likes of the Red Sox and the Yankees, and we shouldn't really expect our team to either unless management starts bringing in some big time hitters who can produce year in and year out..

mtf
05-04-2012, 04:16 PM
Learn to read.


Travis Snider's issue is not mechanical. Dwayne Murphy isn't allowed to stand behind the plate and whisper "it's a curveball in the dirt, don't swing!"

Colby is relatively new to the team but I understand they have already made an adjustment to his swing.

Aaron Hill is on the Diamondbacks so I don't see how that is relevant to Dwayne Murphy.

Adam Lind and J.P are what they are. Neither should really be starting on a decent team. I don't know what you think Dwayne Murphy can do? You want him to turn everyone into 50 HR, high OBP guys?

I like how you said "Learn to read" because I summarized your previous post as "It's all the hitters fault, Murphy deserves no blame for the failures under his tenure." and you replied by telling me about the flaws of the players. But yes, it's probably an issue with my literacy.

town123
05-04-2012, 05:29 PM
How the hell did you get there. Ok, i guess i have to state the obvious. No, since AA is not the owner, he is also working with what rogers give him financially and he is doing a pretty good job. The fans need to be patient and understand that AA is trying to build a winner here through the draft and trades, not by signing big name free agents, not until, according to rogers, the team starts winning and we start having fans show up.

So ... you are saying the hitters are at fault and not Murphy. Maybe you need to be more obvious in your answer.

adid727
05-05-2012, 05:20 PM
So ... you are saying the hitters are at fault and not Murphy. Maybe you need to be more obvious in your answer.

Yeah sorry i used imagery. I thought everyone would get it.

bomber0104
05-05-2012, 06:47 PM
Yahoo has an article that talks about EE and they mention that it wasn't Murphy who told him to alter his swing but some other dude from the dominican.. i knew murphy couldn't do something like that

KaiserSose
05-07-2012, 09:29 AM
I like how you said "Learn to read" because I summarized your previous post as "It's all the hitters fault, Murphy deserves no blame for the failures under his tenure." and you replied by telling me about the flaws of the players. But yes, it's probably an issue with my literacy.

If not literacy than intelligence or reason. You seem to have a warped idea of what a hitting coach can/is supposed to do.

mtf
05-08-2012, 05:08 AM
If not literacy than intelligence or reason. You seem to have a warped idea of what a pitching coach can/is supposed to do.

I thought we were talking about the hitting coach, not the pitching coach. I guess I should tell you to learn how to write because that's how mature people respond, right?

Regardless, if your reading comprehension wasn't lacking while claiming the the same about others, you'd have read how I am not one of the people with the torches and pitchforks screaming for Murphy to get out of town. I'm merely the one who is taking in and clarifying the positions of both sides of the argument and trying to refute the ridiculous claims made by the emotional and the stupid.

KaiserSose
05-08-2012, 09:13 AM
I thought we were talking about the hitting coach, not the pitching coach. I guess I should tell you to learn how to write because that's how mature people respond, right?

Regardless, if your reading comprehension wasn't lacking while claiming the the same about others, you'd have read how I am not one of the people with the torches and pitchforks screaming for Murphy to get out of town. I'm merely the one who is taking in and clarifying the positions of both sides of the argument and trying to refute the ridiculous claims made by the emotional and the stupid.

Of course we are talking about the hitting coach. All my points stand and you still haven't addressed my questions from a few pages back where I asked why you think that Murphy is responsible for Aaron Hill in Arizona or for turning Lind or Arencibia into legit hitters.

You might have made the worst argument of anyone in this thread

mtf
05-08-2012, 10:52 AM
Of course we are talking about the hitting coach. All my points stand and you still haven't addressed my questions from a few pages back where I asked why you think that Murphy is responsible for Aaron Hill in Arizona or for turning Lind or Arencibia into legit hitters.

You might have made the worst argument of anyone in this thread

The argument that I previously made, that sent you into this rage of misinterpretations and childish insults, was simply that you should not dismiss the poor performances of players who he is supposed to be coaching and who have a track record of performing at a high level. I was posing the question, if he cant be judged based on these under-achieving performances of players, then how the hell is he supposed to be judged? What is his job if not to get those players going offensively?

I was not making statements that it is entirely his fault that those players are not playing well, instead I was asking questions about how you can dismiss those performances so casually and blame it entirely on the players. If he is given credit when someone has a good year, shouldn't he also take his share of the blame when players whom we expect to play at a high level simply don't?

It is truly disconcerting that someone of your stature would think so little of my argument as to claim it is the worst in this legendary thread. I will take some time to reflect upon your claim and hopefully come out as a better forum citizen for it.

adab
05-08-2012, 11:18 AM
While I'm not that enthused about the Jays' BA, I would remind you the Jays do score a ton of runs. The truth is they are the top hitting team in MLB with runners in scoring position. So, who really cares about the overall BA?
You guys calling for Murphy's head need to understand that scooring runs is the main objective of an offense. I'd take a team full of .235 hitters if everyone one of those guys drew 100+ walks and had 100+ RBis.
Also, since you all seem so eager to have the Jays axe Murphy, who do you suggest thge Jays hire to replace him? Until you have an answer that is not currently employed by another team, I suggest you all just relax. It's only May 9.

mtf
05-08-2012, 01:07 PM
While I'm not that enthused about the Jays' BA, I would remind you the Jays do score a ton of runs. The truth is they are the top hitting team in MLB with runners in scoring position. So, who really cares about the overall BA?
You guys calling for Murphy's head need to understand that scooring runs is the main objective of an offense. I'd take a team full of .235 hitters if everyone one of those guys drew 100+ walks and had 100+ RBis.
Also, since you all seem so eager to have the Jays axe Murphy, who do you suggest thge Jays hire to replace him? Until you have an answer that is not currently employed by another team, I suggest you all just relax. It's only May 9.

Well, to address your argument regarding statistics, Anthopoulos acknowledged on the Brady and Lang show this morning that team OBP and SLG is too low. Those statistics are much more meaningful to consistency and production than RBI's.

If you're merely looking at runs scored, the Yankees and Red Sox are both higher than the Blue Jays (and with a worse record in fewer games played). The Jays currently have the lowest team OPS in the American League East.

adab
05-08-2012, 04:48 PM
Well, to address your argument regarding statistics, Anthopoulos acknowledged on the Brady and Lang show this morning that team OBP and SLG is too low. Those statistics are much more meaningful to consistency and production than RBI's.

If you're merely looking at runs scored, the Yankees and Red Sox are both higher than the Blue Jays (and with a worse record in fewer games played). The Jays currently have the lowest team OPS in the American League East.

Look. Their's no denying these stats are low. But if the object of the game is to score more runs than the opponent, they Jays are doing that more often the the opposition.
But since you neglected to answer my question, I'll ask it again. Who do you propose to replace Murphy? Until you have that answer figured out, it's not worth firing Murphy yet. Just dumping a guy is only half a solution, and may end up being a terrible idea if you do not have an alternate plan.

town123
05-08-2012, 07:50 PM
Chad Mottola. simple.

Toxeryll
05-09-2012, 02:27 AM
Look. Their's no denying these stats are low. But if the object of the game is to score more runs than the opponent, they Jays are doing that more often the the opposition.
But since you neglected to answer my question, I'll ask it again. Who do you propose to replace Murphy? Until you have that answer figured out, it's not worth firing Murphy yet. Just dumping a guy is only half a solution, and may end up being a terrible idea if you do not have an alternate plan.

chad motolla

bomber0104
05-09-2012, 03:07 AM
Look. Their's no denying these stats are low. But if the object of the game is to score more runs than the opponent, they Jays are doing that more often the the opposition.
But since you neglected to answer my question, I'll ask it again. Who do you propose to replace Murphy? Until you have that answer figured out, it's not worth firing Murphy yet. Just dumping a guy is only half a solution, and may end up being a terrible idea if you do not have an alternate plan.

The main reason we have that many runs is because of the RISP success but that will not continue..

on the other hand, you can't say that the batting average will improve by much since none of the players we have seem to be making any changes and they continue to have the same terrible ABs

Yunel is still hitting way too many lazy groundballs
Johnson will continue to strikeout a tonne and never hit for a high average
Bautista continues to look lost at the plate
Lind just sucks and hasn't hit for average for 3 years now
EE is hitting well
Thames is coming back to earth after his hot start (with the avg. at least)
Lawrie still isn't hitting the ball hard but he will get his hits
Rasmus i could see improve because he probably has hit the ball the hardest after EE
JPA is always gonna struggle with a low average

so if things stay put, i dont see us improving much and the runs will dry up once the hits with RISP go away

mtf
05-09-2012, 04:24 AM
Look. Their's no denying these stats are low. But if the object of the game is to score more runs than the opponent, they Jays are doing that more often the the opposition.

Runs are obviously the measure of a win or a loss, but I'll reiterate that it isn't the only statistical category that matters when evaluating the success or failure of the offense and projecting it's consistency for the future.

For example, Rajai Davis can get hit by a pitch, steal second and third base then come in to score on a wild pitch. That isn't something you can rely on, so you look to more concrete stats that runs.


But since you neglected to answer my question, I'll ask it again. Who do you propose to replace Murphy? Until you have that answer figured out, it's not worth firing Murphy yet. Just dumping a guy is only half a solution, and may end up being a terrible idea if you do not have an alternate plan.

I neglected to answer the question because I have not formed an opinion on whether or not I think he should be fired, as such I am not asking for someone else to come in to replace him. When an offense is suffering, I do think the batting coach deserves some of the blame, as do the players themselves. As a fan, I don't know if it's 90% the hitting coach's fault or 10%. I'm not in the dugout, or in the batting cages.

I was simply responding to what I perceived to be faulty logic that you were using to make your case against firing him. I wasn't expressing a personal opinion in this debate.

bartron_44
05-09-2012, 11:47 AM
The main reason we have that many runs is because of the RISP success but that will not continue..

on the other hand, you can't say that the batting average will improve by much since none of the players we have seem to be making any changes and they continue to have the same terrible ABs

Yunel is still hitting way too many lazy groundballs
Johnson will continue to strikeout a tonne and never hit for a high average
Bautista continues to look lost at the plate
Lind just sucks and hasn't hit for average for 3 years now
EE is hitting well
Thames is coming back to earth after his hot start (with the avg. at least)
Lawrie still isn't hitting the ball hard but he will get his hits
Rasmus i could see improve because he probably has hit the ball the hardest after EE
JPA is always gonna struggle with a low average

so if things stay put, i dont see us improving much and the runs will dry up once the hits with RISP go away


Yunel is hitting over .300 with an OBP over .360 over his past 11 games. He drew 2 walks last night, and hit the ball the other way with nothing to show for it. Ever since they told him to start going to the middle of the field more a week ago, he is 8 for 19 (.421) with 2 doubles and a triple and 3 BB's....I think he is starting to turn things around.

Kelly Johnson is hitting .269 with an OBP over .380 , and has 7 HR's in only 108 AB's. He may strike out, but he is hitting .342 over his past 10 games with 5 BB's , 3 HR's and 11 RBI's. He may not hit .300, but he is a very productive second baseman. He leads the majors for second basemen in HR's, he is 2nd in BB's and 3rd in RBI's and OBP. He could be a lead off guy with 30 HR's and 90+ RBI's this year if he keeps it up...

I think Bautista is actually starting to look better at the dish. He isn't quite there with the timing, but at least he is keeping his head in now and making contact without popping everything up.


I agree with everything else in your post...

lexecutioner
05-09-2012, 12:50 PM
On the question in regards to the topic:

I hope Murphy has enough rope to hang himself into. If he can, please encourage your friend Farrell to join as well.