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View Full Version : How Long Can Bautista & Lind Hit 3rd & 4th?



passengershawn
04-30-2012, 09:21 PM
Jose Bautista is resembling more of the Jose we saw when he first arrived in T.O. rather than the one who led the majors in HR's the past 2 seasons. Adam Lind is...well...Adam Lind, which means giving basically nothing offensively.

So the question is, how long can the Jays trot these guys out as the #3 and #4 hitters? You'd have to think Joey Bats will at least somewhat turn things around, but with Lind's recent track record (or lack of), can we really expect him to be anything more than he currently is? These 2 guys are killing any rallies the Jays happen to come upon, and having them in these key spots in the order is sucking the life out of the lineup. I also wonder why Farrell doesn't use Lawrie as the leadoff hiter. He has power, speed and knows how to get inside the pitchers heads. I'd like to see this lineup for a week to see what they could do.

Lawrie 3B
Rasmus CF
Escobar SS
Encarnacion DH
Bautista RF
Johnson 2B
Lind 1B
Thames/Davis LF
Arencibia/Mathis C

If Lind continues to struggle, then I put EE @ 1B and call up Snyder (the guy can't do anything more at AAA...either he can play in the bigs, or he can't). The Jays also HAVE to get another bat to put behind Bautista...and maybe getting dumped down the order will wake him up. I love the way he plays, but I think he's gotten a pretty big ego over the last couple years and maybe needs to come down a peg or two.

craigerlee
04-30-2012, 09:27 PM
Jose Bautista is resembling more of the Jose we saw when he first arrived in T.O. rather than the one who led the majors in HR's the past 2 seasons. Adam Lind is...well...Adam Lind, which means giving basically nothing offensively.

So the question is, how long can the Jays trot these guys out as the #3 and #4 hitters? You'd have to think Joey Bats will at least somewhat turn things around, but with Lind's recent track record (or lack of), can we really expect him to be anything more than he currently is? These 2 guys are killing any rallies the Jays happen to come upon, and having them in these key spots in the order is sucking the life out of the lineup. I also wonder why Farrell doesn't use Lawrie as the leadoff hiter. He has power, speed and knows how to get inside the pitchers heads. I'd like to see this lineup for a week to see what they could do.

Lawrie 3B
Rasmus CF
Escobar SS
Encarnacion DH
Bautista RF
Johnson 2B
Lind 1B
Thames/Davis LF
Arencibia/Mathis C

If Lind continues to struggle, then I put EE @ 1B and call up Snyder (the guy can't do anything more at AAA...either he can play in the bigs, or he can't). The Jays also HAVE to get another bat to put behind Bautista...and maybe getting dumped down the order will wake him up. I love the way he plays, but I think he's gotten a pretty big ego over the last couple years and maybe needs to come down a peg or two.

I don't know what Escobar's done this year to deserve hitting in the #3 spot, a .224/.267/.286 slash line doesn't look too deserving of the #3 hole. At least Bautista is getting on-base, just gotta hope he gets his timing back. Lind I couldn't agree more, he needs to be moved to the bottom of the order.

urban legend
04-30-2012, 09:46 PM
pichers have caught up to jose.... homerun king to pop up king
lind had one good year to tell the grandkids about

jsumadchat
04-30-2012, 09:54 PM
i still think jose can turn it around. maybe not the godly numbers he put up the last two seasons, but not a DRASTIC drop.

Twitchy
04-30-2012, 10:05 PM
Just for fun:

Jose Bautista hit 213/314/427 back in April of 2010.
Jose Bautista ended 2010 hitting 260/378/617 with 54 home runs.

Moral of the story? Calm down. Back away from the ledge. It's one bad month. If it's the middle of June and he's still hitting like that maybe you start to worry. Not the end of April.

scottythegreat1
04-30-2012, 10:27 PM
As long as John Farrell is making up the lineup card, thats the way its going to be.

I want EE batting cleanup (I never thought Id admit it).

Leach11
04-30-2012, 10:30 PM
Just for fun:

Jose Bautista hit 213/314/427 back in April of 2010.
Jose Bautista ended 2010 hitting 260/378/617 with 54 home runs.

Moral of the story? Calm down. Back away from the ledge. It's one bad month. If it's the middle of June and he's still hitting like that maybe you start to worry. Not the end of April.

Totally agree. People talk like the guy is complete **** because of 1/8th of the season.

rapsjaysfan88
04-30-2012, 10:58 PM
We have horrible luck, we sign guys after good years and then boom they flop.. Lind, hill, Vernon, Jose, yunel... Ugh

bomber0104
04-30-2012, 11:03 PM
i was just about to start a Bautista thread but i'll give it a couple of days now..

to answer your question.. as long as that ****ing idiot is managing this team and Murphy coaching the hittters, you are gonna continue to see the same lineup and they will continue to produce the same terrible hitting performances

nithanyo
04-30-2012, 11:32 PM
bautista is in the third slot all year. The lineup around him will change. again i like the idea of batting lawrie in front of him against while EE bats 4th and Thames in the 5th hole.

I also like Rasmus leading off and Escobar, Johnson, JPA and Lind rounding out the lineup in that order

rapsjaysfan88
04-30-2012, 11:37 PM
bautista is in the third slot all year. The lineup around him will change. again i like the idea of batting lawrie in front of him against while EE bats 4th and Thames in the 5th hole.

I also like Rasmus leading off and Escobar, Johnson, JPA and Lind rounding out the lineup in that order

Lawrie and Rasmus aren't walking so they shouldn't be batting 1 and2

nithanyo
05-01-2012, 12:27 AM
Lawrie and Rasmus aren't walking so they shouldn't be batting 1 and2

true enough but Rasmus has the same amount walks as Escobar. Its not like Escobar is getting on consistently. Rasmus is at least faster with rasmus having a bit more power and Esco having the ability to hit for a higher clip. Plus with rasmus on the paths that would be more fastballs for Lawrie and with Lawrie on base more fastballs for Bautista.

Johnson and Escobar have average speed atbest. Anything to score more runs and get bautista going

Krylian
05-01-2012, 12:32 AM
i was just about to start a Bautista thread but i'll give it a couple of days now..

to answer your question.. as long as that ****ing idiot is managing this team and Murphy coaching the hittters, you are gonna continue to see the same lineup and they will continue to produce the same terrible hitting performances

Murphy made Bautista.

mtf
05-01-2012, 12:40 AM
Bautista will continue to bat in the heart of the lineup for some time to come. The evidence of this can be seen in how long they've trotted out Lind as the clean-up hitter.

Lind does need to be replaced with Encarnacion at first base, rotate Thames to DH and put Snider into left field. But that won't happen.

jj_afroman
05-01-2012, 01:26 AM
Vs. RHP

3B - Lawrie
2B - Johnson
3B - Bautista
DH - Encarnacion
LF - Thames
1B - Lind
SS - Escobar
CF - Rasmus
C - Arencibia


Vs. LHP

3B - Lawrie
DH - Fransisco
RF - Bautista
1B - Encarnacion
SS - Escobar
LF - Davis
2B - Johnson
C - Arencibia
CF - Rasmus

Ragin' Cajun
05-01-2012, 08:44 AM
Bautista's problem isn't that all of a sudden he sucks, and then people think he's a flop... some of you guys are ridiculous. No offense. Bautista just needs to see the ball. Almost everytime I watch him lately he is pulling his head off the ball. If you don't follow the ball right to your bat you aren't going to have much success. He's gonna come around.

bartron_44
05-01-2012, 09:20 AM
The only problem with Bautista is that he is trying to murder everything. When he swings , he is looking straight into the 3rd base dugout. His timing is a bit off, and he is taking his eye off the ball, that's why he is popping everything up. He needs to let the ball travel a bit more, and actually look at it when he is trying to hit it like when he goes the other way.

Lind on the other hand......I really think its time to call a spade a spade and trade this guy for whatever prospects AA can get for him. Not counting the 18 games he played in 2006, the guy has had 1 good year since he became a pro.....He is playing well defensively, but I would rather he rake and stink at first...How can any manager in their right mind put someone with an OBP under .300 over the past 300 games in the cleanup spot? He should be lucky to be sniffing the 9 spot in any lineup the way he has hit over the past 2 years...and deserves to be placed on waivers if no one wants him.



Lawrie - 3B
Johnson - 2B
EE - DH
Bautista - RF
Thames- LF
Mathis - C
Cooper/Gomes - 1B
Escobar - SS
Rasmus- CF


As long as Escobar and Rasmus are hitting 8th and 9th (don't care which order), and Jeff Mathis in the lineup, I would be happy though. When Mathis comes back down to earth you put JPA back in there, but I think they should be riding the hot bat while it is there. We need all the help we can get right now, and he has made some adjustments this year which really seem to be working judging from the power he is displaying...you never know, he could be in for a breakout season.

Jays#1
05-01-2012, 12:41 PM
Everyone does realize that the Jays currently sit 5th in the American League in runs scored, just one run behind Tampa for 4th, and that is with Bautista doing nothing, so imagine where the Jays would be in runs scored if Bautista was actually hitting, the offense is fine.

wamco
05-01-2012, 01:08 PM
We have horrible luck, we sign guys after good years and then boom they flop.. Lind, hill, Vernon, Jose, yunel... Ugh

actually hill is back to being good again

bartron_44
05-01-2012, 01:57 PM
^^...also, I would like to add Jose definitely didn't flop last year.

Vernon definitely had more then "one good year" before they gave him a big contract, but he only made big money (15M) in 2010 as a Blue Jay.....and he was an all-star with an OPS of .847. (He also made 8.8M in 2007 and stunk, but that was not the big contract.) Therefore, the only people that monstrous contract ever hurt is the GM in Anaheim that lost his job over it, and their owner now that he is stuck paying him 21M a season for the next 3 years :)...

Escobar was in the majors for 5 seasons with a career batting average of .285, and a career OBP over .360. He definitely wasn't a one year wonder either, and will most likely come around before the season is over.

I agree with Lind.

bartron_44
05-01-2012, 02:08 PM
Everyone does realize that the Jays currently sit 5th in the American League in runs scored, just one run behind Tampa for 4th, and that is with Bautista doing nothing, so imagine where the Jays would be in runs scored if Bautista was actually hitting, the offense is fine.

In our division we cannot afford to give away a single game, and a difference of even 5 runs could be 2 or 3 more wins in all the close games we have been in.

You say it yourself just imagine how good we could be if our most productive hitters were getting the most AB's instead of our least productive hitters. How EE is not batting 4th on this team is gonna start being laughable soon. And how you can keep letting someone with an OBP under .300 lead the team in PA's is going to start to get pretty explainable too.

ILDD
05-01-2012, 02:45 PM
If Lind continues to struggle, then I put EE @ 1B and call up Snyder (the guy can't do anything more at AAA...either he can play in the bigs, or he can't). The Jays also HAVE to get another bat to put behind Bautista...and maybe getting dumped down the order will wake him up. I love the way he plays, but I think he's gotten a pretty big ego over the last couple years and maybe needs to come down a peg or two.

First, back away from the ledge over Jose, give him at least another month before making any moves.

Secondly, learn how to spell Snider's name. I mean, you get Encarnacion right, why not Snider. Really boils my piss when fans of the team don't know how to spell a players name right. It's not that hard, surely?

jj_afroman
05-01-2012, 02:50 PM
First, back away from the ledge over Jose, give him at least another month before making any moves.

Secondly, learn how to spell Snider's name. I mean, you get Encarnacion right, why not Snider. Really boils my piss when fans of the team don't know how to spell a players name right. It's not that hard, surely?

It's irrelevant how his name is spelled, stop being such a negative nancy

bomber0104
05-01-2012, 02:51 PM
Murphy made Bautista.

pretty sure Cito played a big part in that

bomber0104
05-01-2012, 02:54 PM
Everyone does realize that the Jays currently sit 5th in the American League in runs scored, just one run behind Tampa for 4th, and that is with Bautista doing nothing, so imagine where the Jays would be in runs scored if Bautista was actually hitting, the offense is fine.

I think pitching matchups and Kevin Gregg have had a lot to do with that.. we have faced 3 elite pitchers all year.. the rest range from below average to average at best.. The numbers aren't that impressive IMO

mtf
05-01-2012, 03:07 PM
Everyone does realize that the Jays currently sit 5th in the American League in runs scored, just one run behind Tampa for 4th, and that is with Bautista doing nothing, so imagine where the Jays would be in runs scored if Bautista was actually hitting, the offense is fine.

Saying that they sit 5th in the AL in scoring is misleading people a bit, don't you think? 5th of 14 teams doesn't mean much. You're basically right in the middle of the pack. Regardless, it's simply not enough. The current offense is basically coming from Encarnacion and to a lesser extent, from Lawrie as well. The lineup needs to be more complete and the first logical step is removing Adam Lind who just fails in every way except defense.

Jays#1
05-01-2012, 03:22 PM
I get that, Lind is sucking, Bautista is sucking, Escobar is sucking, yet this team has still scored more runs than most of the American League. I am just trying to put it in perspective. For the person who said they have only faced so many elite pitchers I'm sure every team is in the same boat so the figures are still comparative over all the teams. It is April, the team is above .500, I don't know what everyone was expecting (it seems everyone thought the Jays would have a .750 winning percentage by now and everyone would be batting over .300 with OPS over 1.000). Relax and let the seaon play out.

nithanyo
05-01-2012, 03:44 PM
pretty sure Cito played a big part in that

Bautista points to both of them for his success.

But it's not the hitting coaches fault. It's the fact that we don't have a true cleanup hitter that messes our entire lineup. I was always a pro-Lind guy but it might be time to give up on him.

Again I fault our struggles on Rogers' cheapness.

Rather than adding Darvish and Prince instantly making us WS contenders we went after Cordero and visquel

mtf
05-01-2012, 03:54 PM
I get that, Lind is sucking, Bautista is sucking, Escobar is sucking, yet this team has still scored more runs than most of the American League. I am just trying to put it in perspective.

This is part of the mental disorder that Toronto sports fans seem to have. Simply performing at league average is an excuse that we afford the team rather than being upset that they aren't playing at a high level.


It is April, the team is above .500, I don't know what everyone was expecting (it seems everyone thought the Jays would have a .750 winning percentage by now and everyone would be batting over .300 with OPS over 1.000). Relax and let the seaon play out.

In New York, Boston or other markets where the fans care and expect results, fans get upset when the team isn't playing well enough. In Toronto, we make excuses for them. I don't want to see Toronto losing 5 of 6 to the Baltimore f***ing Orioles because they cant score runs and support starting pitching that is playing above expectations.

League average and .500 isn't good enough anymore. I want and expect more, and so should you.

Krylian
05-01-2012, 04:02 PM
pretty sure Cito played a big part in that

Maybe it was Gene Tenace.

Jays#1
05-01-2012, 04:08 PM
This is part of the mental disorder that Toronto sports fans seem to have. Simply performing at league average is an excuse that we afford the team rather than being upset that they aren't playing at a high level.



In New York, Boston or other markets where the fans care and expect results, fans get upset when the team isn't playing well enough. In Toronto, we make excuses for them. I don't want to see Toronto losing 5 of 6 to the Baltimore f***ing Orioles because they cant score runs and support starting pitching that is playing above expectations.

League average and .500 isn't good enough anymore. I want and expect more, and so should you.

Ecpecting this team (or any team for that matter) as currently constructed to play .750 baseball is just setting yourself up for disappointment. I am not saying I expect this team to be at .500 for the entire season, all I'm saying is despite key guys sucking big time this month we are still at .500, it could be a lot worse, once these guys actually get going as I expect them to than this team will play better and be in contention all season.

miller74
05-01-2012, 04:31 PM
Jose Bautista is resembling more of the Jose we saw when he first arrived in T.O. rather than the one who led the majors in HR's the past 2 seasons. Adam Lind is...well...Adam Lind, which means giving basically nothing offensively.

So the question is, how long can the Jays trot these guys out as the #3 and #4 hitters? You'd have to think Joey Bats will at least somewhat turn things around, but with Lind's recent track record (or lack of), can we really expect him to be anything more than he currently is? These 2 guys are killing any rallies the Jays happen to come upon, and having them in these key spots in the order is sucking the life out of the lineup. I also wonder why Farrell doesn't use Lawrie as the leadoff hiter. He has power, speed and knows how to get inside the pitchers heads. I'd like to see this lineup for a week to see what they could do.

Lawrie 3B
Rasmus CF
Escobar SS
Encarnacion DH
Bautista RF
Johnson 2B
Lind 1B
Thames/Davis LF
Arencibia/Mathis C

If Lind continues to struggle, then I put EE @ 1B and call up Snyder (the guy can't do anything more at AAA...either he can play in the bigs, or he can't). The Jays also HAVE to get another bat to put behind Bautista...and maybe getting dumped down the order will wake him up. I love the way he plays, but I think he's gotten a pretty big ego over the last couple years and maybe needs to come down a peg or two.

I dont think so @Macarthur16, as i said to taosteib when you posted it to him, why waste KJ getting on base nearly 40% of the time by hitting him in front of Lind?

miller74
05-01-2012, 04:33 PM
the best thing for Jose right now is to have the best hitter possible protecting him to see more fastballs. And the best thing for Jose is the best thing for the Jays

mtf
05-01-2012, 05:06 PM
Ecpecting this team (or any team for that matter) as currently constructed to play .750 baseball is just setting yourself up for disappointment. I am not saying I expect this team to be at .500 for the entire season

You're the one who keeps throwing around the figure of a .750 win percentage and implying that someone else is expecting it.

I simply don't want to see them lose 5 of 6 to Baltimore. Can you see a team like Texas, Detroit, New York, Tampa Bay or Boston doing this? Possible, but not likely.


all I'm saying is despite key guys sucking big time this month we are still at .500, it could be a lot worse, once these guys actually get going as I expect them to than this team will play better and be in contention all season.

We've heard that for years. Regarding players like Adam Lind, Vernon Wells, Alex Rios, Aaron Hill, etc.

The problem is that this team is reliant upon a few to carry them, and when those few fall short then the team is in trouble or at best, .500 ... If they had got someone like a Prince Fielder (just a name to illustrate the point) that they would be less reliant on 1 big bat (Bautista) and these multi-month slumps wouldn't cost the team a season.

passengershawn
05-01-2012, 06:29 PM
Vs. RHP

3B - Lawrie
2B - Johnson
3B - Bautista
DH - Encarnacion
LF - Thames
1B - Lind
SS - Escobar
CF - Rasmus
C - Arencibia


Vs. LHP

3B - Lawrie
DH - Fransisco
RF - Bautista
1B - Encarnacion
SS - Escobar
LF - Davis
2B - Johnson
C - Arencibia
CF - Rasmus

I like this, except for Francisco...makes no sense having him that high...if the Jays are going to do something drastic like that...call up Snyder. But other than that I like this order. I still would like to see how Joey Bats responds to a little personal ego shake-up and move him down the order for a week.

passengershawn
05-01-2012, 06:36 PM
In our division we cannot afford to give away a single game, and a difference of even 5 runs could be 2 or 3 more wins in all the close games we have been in.

You say it yourself just imagine how good we could be if our most productive hitters were getting the most AB's instead of our least productive hitters. How EE is not batting 4th on this team is gonna start being laughable soon. And how you can keep letting someone with an OBP under .300 lead the team in PA's is going to start to get pretty explainable too.

Absolutely agree with you, but unfortunately at this point, no one is getting on base in front of Lind, so whether it was EE, Lind or Buck Martinez, EE would still be hitting solo HR's until the magic trance wears off the team.

passengershawn
05-01-2012, 06:39 PM
First, back away from the ledge over Jose, give him at least another month before making any moves.

Secondly, learn how to spell Snider's name. I mean, you get Encarnacion right, why not Snider. Really boils my piss when fans of the team don't know how to spell a players name right. It's not that hard, surely?

I'm a fan of the Jays...not Travis SNIDER...so allow me to take a page from your book...back away from the ledge, pee (or do you spell it pea?) in a cup and set the microwave timer to 45 seconds...should do the trick for ya! :cool:

passengershawn
05-01-2012, 06:42 PM
Bautista points to both of them for his success.

But it's not the hitting coaches fault. It's the fact that we don't have a true cleanup hitter that messes our entire lineup. I was always a pro-Lind guy but it might be time to give up on him.

Again I fault our struggles on Rogers' cheapness.

Rather than adding Darvish and Prince instantly making us WS contenders we went after Cordero and visquel

Careful...someone might get hurt touching their boiled pee seeing you mis-spelled someone's name :D

As for Cordero...anyone else agree his is our new Frankie Francisco 2.0?

Stress
05-01-2012, 08:17 PM
Adam Lind cant hit. His power is gone.
Why is he batting clean-up.
Why is he starting for this team.
I'm losing my mind.
It doesn't make any sense.
Please someone make it make sense.

FLeays
05-01-2012, 08:40 PM
Adam Lind cant hit. His power is gone.
Why is he batting clean-up.
Why is he starting for this team.
I'm losing my mind.
It doesn't make any sense.
Please someone make it make sense.

Switch him with Johnson maybe?

2009mvp
05-01-2012, 11:34 PM
^^And move him up in the lineup? No thanks. He should be down there with JPA doesn't even matter which one is 8th and which one is 9th, they're both easily the worst hitters in the lineup.

bartron_44
05-02-2012, 10:36 AM
Absolutely agree with you, but unfortunately at this point, no one is getting on base in front of Lind, so whether it was EE, Lind or Buck Martinez, EE would still be hitting solo HR's until the magic trance wears off the team.

Kelly Johnson is getting on base, and Jose had an OBP of .378 on April 23rd. Also if look at the last sentence in my previous post too, you would see I want to replace Escobar in the lead off slot too with someone who can actually get on base.

Escobar leading off right now is just as inexcusable as Lind even being in the line up. Escobar should be hitting 9th, and Lind should be on waivers..along with Ben Francisco. Either Cooper or Gomes should be brought up to play 1B/DH...like today, and Snider should be called up to replace Rasmus in CF if he doesn't turn things around by the time Snider is back in AAA and raking again.


Johnson- 2B
Thames- LF
Bautista-RF
EE-1B/DH
Lawrie-3B
Snider-CF
Mathis-C
Cooper/Gomes-1B/DH
Escobar-SS

Bench

Rasmus
Davis
JPA
Visquel

2009mvp
05-02-2012, 11:07 AM
Cooper or whoever Gomes is over Rasmus? Yikes.

bartron_44
05-02-2012, 12:44 PM
Cooper or whoever Gomes is over Rasmus? Yikes.

"Yikes" is exactly what I say when I look at his numbers...especially as a Blue Jay.

But, I actually said:

"and Snider should be called up to replace Rasmus in CF if he doesn't turn things around by the time Snider is back in AAA and raking again."

So it is Snider for Rasmus, not Cooper or Gomes.

I realize Rasmus had a good year in 2010, but he has been nothing short of GOD AWFUL in the batters box since coming to Toronto. He was an improvement of Davis in the OF (which didn't take very much), but that is the only thing he has brought this team... He showed signs of turning things around for about a week this year, but as a whole he has been dreadful offensively. Sure he has 3 HR's and 11 RBI's, but he is hitting like .230 with an OBP of .286, a K rate of like 27%, and only 1 SB.

I wouldn't do anything with him just yet, but if he hasn't raised his OBP significantly by the end of May and snider is still straight pimpin AAA, I think it may be time to sit him down for a while and give Snider and Thames both the chance to cement themselves as every day players in the major leagues. If one of them starts to slump or gets hurt, we would still have Rasmus sitting there waiting...but I don't want any part of position players with an OBP under .300.

I wouldn't put him on waivers like I would with Lind, but a .286 OBP doesn't cut it at any position...not even catcher.


If you don't know who Yan Gomes is, I suggest you take a look at the following:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=gomes-001yan

He is only 24 years old until July 19th, and here is a breakdown of his progression through the minors


2009: .300/.370/.809 2 HR's, 23 2B's and 46 RBI's in 237 AB's
2010: .270/.308/.780 9 HR's, 23 2B's and 48 RBI's in 259 AB's
2011: .248/.315/.770 13 HR's, 19 2B's and 52 RBI's in 290 AB's
2012: .369/.398/.957 2 HR's, 10 2B's and 13 RBI's in 84 AB's


He has never repeated a level, and he has stayed productive even when they didn't play him everyday. He got stuck behind D'Arnuad in 2010, and has had to live in his shadow for the past 2 years...that's why you don't know about this guy. I hate to think what kind of numbers he may have put up if he would have gotten a couple hundred more AB's per season the last 2 years.

MrForever
05-02-2012, 12:54 PM
Encarnacion should be cleaning up right now. He deserves the chance.
Johnson should be batting in an RBI position (6th or 5th), he bats well with RISP
Lawrie, Rasmus should be batting 5th or 2nd.
Most of all, Lind should be batting 7th, not 4th or 5th.

Escobar
Lawrie
Bautista
Encarnacion
Rasmus
Johnson
Lind
Thames
Arnecibia

2009mvp
05-02-2012, 01:30 PM
"Yikes" is exactly what I say when I look at his numbers...especially as a Blue Jay.

But, I actually said:

"and Snider should be called up to replace Rasmus in CF if he doesn't turn things around by the time Snider is back in AAA and raking again."

So it is Snider for Rasmus, not Cooper or Gomes.

Semantics. Doesn't matter who's replacing who at a specific position, my point was Cooper/Gomes in the lineup over Rasmus is crazy.





http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=gomes-001yan

He is only 24 years old until July 19th, and here is a breakdown of his progression through the minors


2009: .300/.370/.809 2 HR's, 23 2B's and 46 RBI's in 237 AB's
2010: .270/.308/.780 9 HR's, 23 2B's and 48 RBI's in 259 AB's
2011: .248/.315/.770 13 HR's, 19 2B's and 52 RBI's in 290 AB's
2012: .369/.398/.957 2 HR's, 10 2B's and 13 RBI's in 84 AB's


He has never repeated a level, and he has stayed productive even when they didn't play him everyday. He got stuck behind D'Arnuad in 2010, and has had to live in his shadow for the past 2 years...that's why you don't know about this guy. I hate to think what kind of numbers he may have put up if he would have gotten a couple hundred more AB's per season the last 2 years.

Cool, a 24 year old non-prospect. That sounds like a great idea.

es0terik
05-02-2012, 04:23 PM
1 - R - Brett Lawrie
2 - L - Travis Snider
3 - R - Jose Bautista
4 - R - Edwin Encarnacion
5 - L - Colby Rasmus
6 - R - Yunel Escobar
7 - L - Kelly Johnson
8 - R - JP Arencibia
9 - L - Adam Lind

:drool:

Sanyo
05-04-2012, 02:48 AM
Lind needs to get out of the 4th spot immediately...he's not a clean up hitter and we've talked about it for so long. Its not working out...time to move on and maybe put him the 7th hole and see how it goes. If he struggles there, time to move him for something...I mean anything at this point.

Need a 1b who can be consistent and protect Bautista -- Jays are about one piece away with the starting pitching they have, this could be the push they need now toward the playoffs...

Toxeryll
05-04-2012, 03:02 AM
1 - R - Brett Lawrie
2 - L - Travis Snider
3 - R - Jose Bautista
4 - R - Edwin Encarnacion
5 - L - Colby Rasmus
6 - R - Yunel Escobar
7 - L - Kelly Johnson
8 - R - JP Arencibia
9 - L - Adam Lind

:drool:

its not :drool: worthy if it includes lind

es0terik
05-04-2012, 03:09 AM
its not :drool: worthy if it includes lind

1 - R - Brett Lawrie
2 - L - Travis Snider
3 - R - Jose Bautista
4 - R - Edwin Encarnacion
5 - L - Colby Rasmus
6 - R - Yunel Escobar
7 - L - Kelly Johnson
8 - R - JP Arencibia

:drool:

mtf
05-04-2012, 03:39 AM
It's a personal pet peeve when people just post a line-up, but whatever... seems like the thing to do here.

1. R [SS] Escobar
2. L [2B] Johnson
3. R [RF] Bautista
4. R [1B] Encarnacion
5. L [CF] Rasmus
6. R [3B] Lawrie
7. L [LF] Snider
8. R [C ] Arencibia
9. L [DH] Thames

Basically, Thames poor defense makes him the new Encarnacion and thus the DH. Snider moves into left field and replaces Lind as a left-handed bat. Encarnacion moves to first base, where he's been good enough.

You'd lose some defense at first, with the loss of Lind, but the left-field defense would be greatly improved and the offensive gain from Snider subbing in for Lind would be noticeable, in my opinion.

As for the order of the line-up, I'd like to see Lawrie and Encarnacion switched when Encarnacion cools off a bit and becomes himself again, and switch Snider and Rasmus as well if Snider performs as well as I'd hope.

DeRozan10
05-04-2012, 04:18 AM
It's a personal pet peeve when people just post a line-up, but whatever... seems like the thing to do here.

1. R [SS] Escobar
2. L [2B] Johnson
3. R [RF] Bautista
4. R [1B] Encarnacion
5. L [CF] Rasmus
6. R [3B] Lawrie
7. L [LF] Snider
8. R [C ] Arencibia
9. L [DH] Thames

Basically, Thames poor defense makes him the new Encarnacion and thus the DH. Snider moves into left field and replaces Lind as a left-handed bat. Encarnacion moves to first base, where he's been good enough.

You'd lose some defense at first, with the loss of Lind, but the left-field defense would be greatly improved and the offensive gain from Snider subbing in for Lind would be noticeable, in my opinion.

As for the order of the line-up, I'd like to see Lawrie and Encarnacion switched when Encarnacion cools off a bit and becomes himself again, and switch Snider and Rasmus as well if Snider performs as well as I'd hope.

Love this lineup

Too bad it wont happen any time soon

Sanyo
05-04-2012, 07:51 AM
I think its realistic to say that Lawrie will likely move into the 3 or 4 spot by next year and maybe up to 5th by the All Star Break. I guess whoever is in those spots are just a placeover for the eventual Lawrie move to one of those spots...

wamco
05-04-2012, 09:29 AM
wells vs bautista, both on jays payroll



http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/mlb...mp;pids[7264]=1

GNick
05-04-2012, 09:48 AM
I use to follow the Expos when I was younger...twice I remember they had a player come out of virtually nowhere and hit the heck out of the ball for a couple of seasons then fade away. Henry Rodríguez and Larry Parrish, both in their late 20s and generally considered bench players. Parrish was like Bautista after his best year he would pop up way more than average player.

Abdul Mutalib
05-04-2012, 01:59 PM
was half paying attention when watching yesterday's game and the 3/4 of baut/lind was really embarrassing to watch. it was like everytime they were up, KJ and Esco were in scoring position and it was sure to be an out. if it were not for the the trumbo error, it woulda been a 3-0 ball game coming from only 2 swings of the bat.

i dont mind farrell believing in jose @ that spot b/c guys go thru slumps but with lind it is just a lost cause IMO.

jsumadchat
05-04-2012, 03:30 PM
we've established, lind is long done. jose im ok with, he's given us more production in 2 yrs than most have given us in 5. the team is winning and he has MORE than enough time to pull it together. his contract is a bargain for a player of his 'caliber', and it could be way worse - we could have pulled the trigger on pujols. could you imagine pujols and bautista on the same team right now? yikes.

MrForever
05-04-2012, 03:43 PM
Like I've said before, even in Jose isn't hitting he's a vital part of the line in the line up, on the field and especially in the dugout. The team needs his presence and his leadership ever more than it needs his bat.

mtf
05-04-2012, 04:14 PM
Love this lineup

Too bad it wont happen any time soon

Yeah, I don't expect it to happen either. I think the Blue Jays management choose players they like and don't like, and regardless of how they perform they seem to stick to their bias'.

Snider stuck in AAA and Lind still getting to hit 4th would be the evidence. But then again, maybe they just think Lind will be the next Encarnacion and Snider will be useless.

TOJAYS
05-04-2012, 04:20 PM
Lind just needs to gtfo this team period. As for Jose, lol at anyone thinking he will move down or something.

Abdul Mutalib
05-04-2012, 04:34 PM
it may be a good idea to give jose a few days off or some time @ DH just to clear his mind or somthin. he looked really depressed and down on himself on the bench yesterday. and after the win, he wasnt in to the back bumps or w/e in the outfield.

wamco
05-05-2012, 12:31 PM
i skip through lind's abs on the dvr

Lavy16
05-05-2012, 02:36 PM
i skip through lind's abs on the dvr

great idea

nithanyo
05-05-2012, 02:47 PM
according to Farell a player gets 100 AB's or 30 games before he decides to change up on them. Were almost at that point with Lind.

mtf
05-05-2012, 04:29 PM
according to Farell a player gets 100 AB's or 30 games before he decides to change up on them. Were almost at that point with Lind.

We reached that point 2 years ago. He's now in year 3 of being terrible.

wamco
05-06-2012, 10:04 AM
I think he meant 1000 ab considering he stunk last year.

the platoon is hella-****** when it doesn't work eh?
Like playing inferior rajai last night for him to go 0-3.
That annoy anyone else?

koreancabbage
05-06-2012, 11:15 AM
We reached that point 2 years ago. He's now in year 3 of being terrible.

he was amazing before he got injured last year.

Twitchy
05-06-2012, 11:17 AM
he was amazing before he got injured last year.

You mean after he got injured. He had 6 good games in May, and picked up right where he left off when he came back in June.

Can't blame his poor season on the injury because he posted a 1.00 OPS when he came back from the D/L.

Jamiecballer
05-06-2012, 01:32 PM
he needs a change of scenery, bad. he obviously has the tools to hit but i don't think he'll rediscover them here.

mkrozansky
05-06-2012, 08:18 PM
I am suprised that Lind still bats 4th with how he has played the last 3 years.

As for Bautista, the way for him to turn things around is simple. He needs to go back to juicing up like he did the last 2 years. I think its very obvious that Bautista was on PEDs. How else do you explain someone going from hitting 13-16 hrs/yr to 45-50 hrs/yr half way through their career? If he only improved to being a 30hr hitter I'd say he is clean but you can't convince me he isn't a PED user.

mtf
05-06-2012, 09:22 PM
he was amazing before he got injured last year.

it was a span of about 30 games and it was in the middle of the season. he was playing like crap before that span and after it. the injury, as in previous seasons, was an excuse.

Rogi10
05-06-2012, 10:16 PM
I am suprised that Lind still bats 4th with how he has played the last 3 years.

As for Bautista, the way for him to turn things around is simple. He needs to go back to juicing up like he did the last 2 years. I think its very obvious that Bautista was on PEDs. How else do you explain someone going from hitting 13-16 hrs/yr to 45-50 hrs/yr half way through their career? If he only improved to being a 30hr hitter I'd say he is clean but you can't convince me he isn't a PED user.

That is a :facepalm: STUPID

nithanyo
05-06-2012, 11:21 PM
I am suprised that Lind still bats 4th with how he has played the last 3 years.

As for Bautista, the way for him to turn things around is simple. He needs to go back to juicing up like he did the last 2 years. I think its very obvious that Bautista was on PEDs. How else do you explain someone going from hitting 13-16 hrs/yr to 45-50 hrs/yr half way through their career? If he only improved to being a 30hr hitter I'd say he is clean but you can't convince me he isn't a PED user.

If you look at his career numbers he was ALWAYS a 25-30 hr guy if he played 162 games. Finally in 2010 he got the chance.

I suppose Pujols is on the juice too since he has a worse season that Bautista

bartron_44
05-07-2012, 09:24 AM
Over the last 10 games JPA and Escobar have started to turn things around, but Lind and Bautista continue to be the worst 2 hitters in our order....(with Rasmus right there with them)

Lind: .152 with 2 RBI's and 10 K's
Bautista: .162 with 6 RBI's and 9 K's
Rasmus: .182 with 2 RBI's and 12 K's


Thank god for EE had the best start of his career posting an OPS over 1.050 in April/March, or we would have been in trouble..He has gone into a funk though over the last 6 games, so now the heart of our order has gone from working on 1 of 3 cylinders, to being completely dead...



Jose has looked better the last couple games. He isn't an overly productive hitter yet, but he just missed another HR last night with a line drive off the wall, which would have given him 3 HR's in his last 6 games..so his timing is getting closer, and he seems to be keeping his head in much better then he was a week ago. Pretty soon we will start seeing line drive after line drive come off his bat, and the balls will start launching..

Lind..I think everyone now knows what I think we should do with him.....

Halladay
05-07-2012, 09:41 AM
Give Jose all the time he needs, you can't give up on such an elite bat. As far as Lind goes, first base cannot be a black hole on offense. It's the one given position in baseball where every team has a great bat...minus us. Pretty simple, he's been terrible for a while, make him a bench player. There needs to be someone brought in or someone called up. Hell, call up Cooper. I don't think much of him but he can't do any worse then Lind. It's pretty much impossible to have a worse bat at first base then the man currently at the position.

neemer85
05-08-2012, 04:58 AM
I am suprised that Lind still bats 4th with how he has played the last 3 years.

As for Bautista, the way for him to turn things around is simple. He needs to go back to juicing up like he did the last 2 years. I think its very obvious that Bautista was on PEDs. How else do you explain someone going from hitting 13-16 hrs/yr to 45-50 hrs/yr half way through their career? If he only improved to being a 30hr hitter I'd say he is clean but you can't convince me he isn't a PED user.

this is coming from a YANKEES FAN:facepalm:

ThunderZubb
05-16-2012, 12:21 AM
http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/24453/blue-jays-need-bautista-to-break-out

Blue Jays need Jose Bautista to break out

When we started You Can’t Predict Baseball back in 2010, Jose Bautista emerged as our poster child. Bautista had been in the majors since 2004, played for four different franchises that year alone, and had never hit more than 16 homers in a season. In 2010, he clubbed 54 home runs, smashing his old career-high slugging percentage by nearly 200 points. Such a sudden power surge provoked much interest, and those who argued it was simply a fluke were proven wrong when Bautista put up an even better encore in 2011, increasing his batting average by 42 points and OPS by 61 points.

Read more......

2009mvp
05-16-2012, 12:24 AM
I am suprised that Lind still bats 4th with how he has played the last 3 years.

As for Bautista, the way for him to turn things around is simple. He needs to go back to juicing up like he did the last 2 years. I think its very obvious that Bautista was on PEDs. How else do you explain someone going from hitting 13-16 hrs/yr to 45-50 hrs/yr half way through their career? If he only improved to being a 30hr hitter I'd say he is clean but you can't convince me he isn't a PED user.

Cool, don't think anyone's gonna try and convince you since no one gives a **** what you think in the first place.

Twitchy
05-16-2012, 07:47 AM
http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/24453/blue-jays-need-bautista-to-break-out

Blue Jays need Jose Bautista to break out

When we started You Can’t Predict Baseball back in 2010, Jose Bautista emerged as our poster child. Bautista had been in the majors since 2004, played for four different franchises that year alone, and had never hit more than 16 homers in a season. In 2010, he clubbed 54 home runs, smashing his old career-high slugging percentage by nearly 200 points. Such a sudden power surge provoked much interest, and those who argued it was simply a fluke were proven wrong when Bautista put up an even better encore in 2011, increasing his batting average by 42 points and OPS by 61 points.

Read more......

A lot of the points brought up are fairly misleading. His awful second half was really just a bad Sept as he was great in July/August. And we'd expect Bautista to have a higher BABIP now compared to when he was a utility guy, because the ball comes off his bat a lot faster/harder now. So he should be hitting for a higher BABIP than his career numbers show.

I don't expect a 300 BA but anything between 260-280 the rest of the way with his usual power and on base skills is pretty reasonable.

wamco
05-16-2012, 08:20 AM
Cool, don't think anyone's gonna try and convince you since no one gives a **** what you think in the first place.

Until HGH testing begins, I'll continue to be skeptical of alot of players

LuckyLuke2
05-16-2012, 09:16 AM
Bautista and Lind continue looking lost at the plate.

They don't really have any other options for 3 and 4... Lawrie? Encarnacion?

That's all I could think of.

wamco
05-16-2012, 10:17 AM
sick of seeing francisco hitting 5th as well. That should be lawrie.