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View Full Version : 2012 NBA ReDraft 1st Round - #3) New Orleans Hornets vs. #6) Los Angeles Clippers



KnicksorBust
04-30-2012, 07:55 PM
Welcome to the 2012 NBA ReDraft voting process. The redraft is exactly how it sounds. The rosters of every NBA team are cleared and then drafted again from scratch. Posters from the site draft full rosters under a salary cap and then there is a voting process to make the playoffs. We are now in the playoffs and the head to head matchups have begun. Please remember to vote for the roster and write-up you believe would win a 7 game series and leave any of your personal preference for the real teams out of your decision. Thank you and enjoy the playoffs!

Hornets:
G: Mo Williams - Beno Udrih
G: Dwyane Wade - Klay Thompson
F: Gerald Wallace - Reggie Williams - Chris Singleton
F: Paul Millsap - Markieff Morris
C: Tiago Splitter - Greg Stiemsma - Erick Dampier

Clippers:
PG: Russell Westbrook/George Hill/Keyon Dooling
SG: Shane Battier/Anthony Morrow/George Hill
SF: Thaddeus Young/Shane Battier/Sam Young
PF: David West/Thaddeus Young/Larry Sanders/Louis Amundson
C: Marcin Gortat/Ronny Turiaf/Larry Sanders


PG: Russell Westbrook v. Mo Williams: This is an easy win for the Clippers here. Westbrook is a top 10 player in the league, while Williams is a decent PG who is a bad defender and would have no chance of defending the incredibly athletic Westbrook, who would finally have the chance to be the #1 option on a great team. If they put Wade on Westbrook, they're only going to wear out their only truly reliable offensive player.

SG: Shane Battier v. Dwyane Wade: Clearly this is a win for the Hornets, but Battier is a gritty, veteran defender who can help keep Wade in check. Thad Young may even need to defend Wade at times. We can also bring in George Hill, who is a pretty good defender, when Battier needs a break or Morrow is in.

SF: Thaddeus Young v. Gerald Wallace: Don't let the name value fool you here, because Young is clearly a better player than Wallace at this point. Thad Young is the more efficient offensive player and more talented defender right now.

PF: David West v. Paul Millsap: This is a close match-up, but in the playoffs, do you want the fairly young player that hasn't proven he can be a major option on a good team, or the veteran who was a more than capable #2 option for Chris Paul for many years in New Orleans?

C: Marcin Gortat v. Tiago Splitter: This is a rape of massive proportions here. Marcin Gortat is at least a decent #2 option and has been an incredible scoring machine this year, with insane efficiency numbers. He also plays a phenomenal brand of defense that would crush Splitter. Splitter has played pretty good defense and has been efficient offensively, but hasn't been counted on for hardly anything in San Antonio. He would need to make a much bigger impact on this team, which would really hurt them.

Bench: George Hill/Anthony Morrow/Larry Sanders/Ronny Turiaf etc. v. Beno Udrih/Klay Thompson/Reggie Williams/Greg Stiemsma etc.: I think the winner of the bench battle is clear. The Clippers have a starting PG who can also play SG in George Hill, a great shooter in Anthony Morrow, and some solid big play. The Hornets have a worse backup PG, a rookie who has shown flashes of being able to score, and a center who offers zero offensive value whatsoever and decent defense.

Also worth noting is that the Clippers have 4 players with 5+ win shares, 3 with 6+ win shares, and 2 with 7+ win shares this season. I'm not sure that any team in the Redraft can match that, and if there are teams that can, they are few and far between. What is most certain is that the Hornets cannot, and would lose this match-up, despite having Dwyane Wade.

The Hornets did not send in a write-up.

KnicksorBust
04-30-2012, 07:58 PM
Hornets are the better "team" but Westbrook could torch Mo Will, Battier is good enough to slow down Wade (EVEN THOUGH MELO IS TORCHING HIS *** RIGHT NOW) and the Clippers have the better frontcourt. This is one that deserves some thought. No vote for now. Hopefully the Hornets give some input in this thread.

Sportfan
04-30-2012, 08:07 PM
Clips due to lack of writeup

Mile High Champ
04-30-2012, 08:23 PM
Tough call to be honest. I have not been a fan of the Hornets throughout the redraft but they match up well with the Clippers for the most part. While Mo Williams would indeed get torched by Westbrook, Wade would destroy Battier. Battier has simply regressed to much as a defender to be effective in slowing down Wade.

PhillyLuver
04-30-2012, 08:27 PM
May the best team win!

Mr. Baller
04-30-2012, 08:29 PM
Clippers here, no writeup for hornets hurts them

Reyes6
04-30-2012, 08:31 PM
No write-up, no vote.

Unless some emergency came up where they were unable to provide one, I have to go with the Clippers.

Baller1
04-30-2012, 08:33 PM
First glance I thought Hornets, but the Clippers actually have a really nice squad. That + no write up... Tough call.

Bulls_fan90
04-30-2012, 08:33 PM
Not sure why people are complaining about a lack of a write up from the Hornets. Make your own decision by looking at the teams posted, not that hard.

Wade would dominate this series. Hornets in 6.

Reyes6
04-30-2012, 08:34 PM
Well it was close, but the no write-up just made the decision much easier.

homestarunner93
04-30-2012, 08:39 PM
Tough call to be honest. I have not been a fan of the Hornets throughout the redraft but they match up well with the Clippers for the most part. While Mo Williams would indeed get torched by Westbrook, Wade would destroy Battier. Battier has simply regressed to much as a defender to be effective in slowing down Wade.

Westbrook against Williams is a bigger win than Wade by Battier, and it isn't that close. Battier is no longer a super elite defender, but he's good enough to slow down Wade some.

Mile High Champ
04-30-2012, 08:43 PM
Westbrook against Williams is a bigger win than Wade by Battier, and it isn't that close. Battier is no longer a super elite defender, but he's good enough to slow down Wade some.

I am not defending Mo Williams but Battier would get destroyed matching up with Wade. Battier really took a huge step backwards on defense this season. Melo is taking him to school as we speak and I already see Wade being more of a challenge. I am sorry but Battier is not going to slow down Wade at all.

Its a huge advantage for you at PG and for the Hornets at SG. Tough call.

Sportfan
04-30-2012, 08:45 PM
battier is still a high iq defender but he's lost a stepwith age and against one of the most athletic guys in wade he wouldn't be able to contain him.

homestarunner93
04-30-2012, 08:48 PM
I am not defending Mo Williams but Battier would get destroyed matching up with Wade. Battier really took a huge step backwards on defense this season. Melo is taking him to school as we speak and I already see Wade being more of a challenge. I am sorry but Battier is not going to slow down Wade at all.

Its a huge advantage for you at PG and for the Hornets at SG. Tough call.

Melo is a tougher match-up for him than Wade would be because of his size. Wade would beat him some with his quickness, but Battier would not get destroyed. Williams, on the other hand, would have zero chance to defend Russell Westbrook getting to the hoop. Not to mention I have a deeper rotation at SG than he has at PG.

kingbrentg
04-30-2012, 09:00 PM
Westbrook against Williams is a bigger win than Wade by Battier, and it isn't that close. Battier is no longer a super elite defender, but he's good enough to slow down Wade some.

Mo won't see a lot, if any time on Westbrook. We'd be silly to throw him into that situation when we have a slew of better perimeter defenders to throw his way with Wade, Wallace, and Singleton.

Stopping Westbrook would be our main focus defensively, and that doesn't leave the Clippers with a whole lot of reliable options to create, especially considering Westbrook's streaky tendencies to begin with.



No write-up, no vote.

Unless some emergency came up where they were unable to provide one, I have to go with the Clippers.

No real emergency. Just other circumstances that have taken priority to writing a gameplan that seemingly not many people have read in past games. No disrespect to the game or anyone else involved.

Reyes6
04-30-2012, 09:04 PM
Ok, I'm just big on write-ups, so I mean nothing by it... but it tipped the scales in their favor.

homestarunner93
04-30-2012, 10:19 PM
Mo won't see a lot, if any time on Westbrook. We'd be silly to throw him into that situation when we have a slew of better perimeter defenders to throw his way with Wade, Wallace, and Singleton.

Stopping Westbrook would be our main focus defensively, and that doesn't leave the Clippers with a whole lot of reliable options to create, especially considering Westbrook's streaky tendencies to begin with.


Ok, and our main focus is stopping Wade. My offensive options outside of Westbrook > yours outside of Wade.

VCaintdead17
04-30-2012, 10:28 PM
Millsap vs Gortat is a really fun match up. Both pretty evenly matched. Same with Splitter vs West.

And I'm not fan of Thad Young starting. He only started one game this year and is better utilized as any energy guy off the bench.

unleashthebeast
04-30-2012, 10:30 PM
Clippers made a damn good team with Westbrook, but Wade with Milsap will prove to be too much in my opinion. I will have to take the hornets here

homestarunner93
04-30-2012, 10:51 PM
Millsap vs Gortat is a really fun match up. Both pretty evenly matched. Same with Splitter vs West.

And I'm not fan of Thad Young starting. He only started one game this year and is better utilized as any energy guy off the bench.

Who cares? He's the best SF, he starts.

Corey
04-30-2012, 10:52 PM
Giving Wade a supporting cast of Millsap, G-Force and Mo is unfair.

I like the Hornets by a wide margin in this.

Wade has proven time and time again that he can lead a team. Westbrook hasn't.

kingbrentg
04-30-2012, 11:26 PM
Ok, and our main focus is stopping Wade. My offensive options outside of Westbrook > yours outside of Wade.

Wade is still the superior, more proven #1 option here. But I don't agree that your other offensive options are better either. Our other weapons make it a huge risk to send any doubles at Wade. With Wallace's ability to make cuts and play without the ball, Mo's (as well as Klay, Markieff, Reggie, and Beno) ability to knock down the three and space the floor, and Millsap and Splitter being two of the most efficient big men in the league on the interior, it's a load to handle.

Another interesting feature the Hornets have is our ability to create fast break opportunities, whether it be with steals or blocks. Having some of the league's best thieves and some decent shot blockers will create a ton of easy basket opportunities in the open court, and we have 2 of the best in the business at finishing in those situations with Wade and G-Force.



Giving Wade a supporting cast of Millsap, G-Force and Mo is unfair.

I like the Hornets by a wide margin in this.

Wade has proven time and time again that he can lead a team. Westbrook hasn't.

I think nearly that alone is a big enough gap in this.

chitownbulls
04-30-2012, 11:40 PM
Ok, and our main focus is stopping Wade. My offensive options outside of Westbrook > yours outside of Wade.

I have to disagree, our supporting cast just compliments Wade so well. I think we have very solid offensive options with Millsap, Thompson and Williams

homestarunner93
05-01-2012, 12:52 AM
I have to disagree, our supporting cast just compliments Wade so well. I think we have very solid offensive options with Millsap, Thompson and Williams

And my supporting cast compliments Westbrook well. Sure, you have solid offensive options, but mine are better. Gortat is a better offensive contributor than anyone on your team, West is a proven #2 option on a playoff-caliber team, and Thad Young is a better offensive player than anyone other than Wade and Millsap.

VCaintdead17
05-01-2012, 12:56 AM
And my supporting cast compliments Westbrook well. Sure, you have solid offensive options, but mine are better. Gortat is a better offensive contributor than anyone on your team, West is a proven #2 option on a playoff-caliber team, and Thad Young is a better offensive player than anyone other than Wade and Millsap.

Except West wasn't even the third option on the Pacers this year. And I'd love for you to elaborate how Gortat is a better offensive contributor than Milly.

chitownbulls
05-01-2012, 01:00 AM
And my supporting cast compliments Westbrook well. Sure, you have solid offensive options, but mine are better. Gortat is a better offensive contributor than anyone on your team, West is a proven #2 option on a playoff-caliber team, and Thad Young is a better offensive player than anyone other than Wade and Millsap.

a) Your claim that Gortat is a better offensive contributor is false.

-IMO Millsap is much better offensively, whereas Gortat this season is a product of Nash. Something tells me Westbrook would not be able to get the same production out of Gortat

B) Westbrook is a proven #2 is an irrelevant argument

-Wade is a proven #1..so I don't understand what your getting at here..

C) Thad Young is a better offensive player?

-Uhh..Mo Williams, was a pretty nice offensive player and has the potential to get 16 ppg with good 3 point shooting. Not to mention Klay Thompson is just a lights out shooter..so again, I don't understand where you are getting these assumptions in this argument.

homestarunner93
05-01-2012, 01:38 AM
a) Your claim that Gortat is a better offensive contributor is false.

-IMO Millsap is much better offensively, whereas Gortat this season is a product of Nash. Something tells me Westbrook would not be able to get the same production out of Gortat

B) Westbrook is a proven #2 is an irrelevant argument

-Wade is a proven #1..so I don't understand what your getting at here..

C) Thad Young is a better offensive player?

-Uhh..Mo Williams, was a pretty nice offensive player and has the potential to get 16 ppg with good 3 point shooting. Not to mention Klay Thompson is just a lights out shooter..so again, I don't understand where you are getting these assumptions in this argument.

No it isn't. Oh yes, Gortat is only good because of Steve Nash. Great argument, except for the fact that Gortat had a good deal of success in the games that Steve Nash missed. He barely missed a beat. That line has been repeated over and over, and has sucked every time it has been used.

West is a proven #2, not Westbrook. Reading comprehension is important.

Yes, Thad Young is a better offensive player than Mo Williams and certainly Klay Thompson. Williams has been less efficient than Young this year. Klay Thompson has contributed well in short minutes, but he's a rookie. He's a good bench scorer, and that's it.

homestarunner93
05-01-2012, 01:40 AM
Except West wasn't even the third option on the Pacers this year. And I'd love for you to elaborate how Gortat is a better offensive contributor than Milly.

He was on the Hornets the year before until he got hurt. The Pacers had a ton of mouths to feed offensively this year, he would be more of a focal point on this team. Gortat's offensive efficiency is through the roof this season, much better than Millsap's. That's all that needs to be said, really. Feel free to go ahead and drop the BS Steve Nash line after this, though.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-01-2012, 03:25 AM
I was tempted to vote for the Clippers due to no write-up on the Hornets part but they've argued their case in the thread so I'm gonna go with the team I preferred going into the matchup (which was the Hornets).

Also, Gortat is helped by Nash and saying he barely missed a beat is false: http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/player-vs-player.html#Marcin-Gortat-vs-Steve-Nash|101162,959;year=201112;season=r

In the 300+ minutes Nash has been on the bench, Gortat has seen a 10% decrease in FG%. This and the fact that Gortat is assisted on 84% of his baskets at the rim suggests that having Nash does impact him- a lot. Add in Gortat's middling RAPM (adjusted +/- #'s) and it makes you wonder how large his impact actually is. He's a good player even without Nash but he is helped a lot by Nash.

Although all of what I just said there has more to do with Nash's underrated impact on the game and not as much about Gortat. He was obviously a productive backup to Dwight in Orlando but I'm not sure how much of a difference there is between Gortat and Splitter when you take into account per minute stats.

VCaintdead17
05-01-2012, 11:50 AM
Add in the fact that Millsap has to create his own shots and yet, post very similar stats on about the same efficiency(Gortat has slightly better TS%, Millsap has better PER) and you'd have to be a complete idiot to believe Gortat is better than Millsap offensively.

homestarunner93
05-01-2012, 12:29 PM
I was tempted to vote for the Clippers due to no write-up on the Hornets part but they've argued their case in the thread so I'm gonna go with the team I preferred going into the matchup (which was the Hornets).

Also, Gortat is helped by Nash and saying he barely missed a beat is false: http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/player-vs-player.html#Marcin-Gortat-vs-Steve-Nash|101162,959;year=201112;season=r

In the 300+ minutes Nash has been on the bench, Gortat has seen a 10% decrease in FG%. This and the fact that Gortat is assisted on 84% of his baskets at the rim suggests that having Nash does impact him- a lot. Add in Gortat's middling RAPM (adjusted +/- #'s) and it makes you wonder how large his impact actually is. He's a good player even without Nash but he is helped a lot by Nash.

Although all of what I just said there has more to do with Nash's underrated impact on the game and not as much about Gortat. He was obviously a productive backup to Dwight in Orlando but I'm not sure how much of a difference there is between Gortat and Splitter when you take into account per minute stats.

Why don't you look at the games where Nash didn't play at all? It's different bringing him off the court during the game than it is him not playing at all, but you're so stat-obsessed it doesn't matter I suppose. Stats cannot and will never be able to tell the whole story.

It's not like Russell Westbrook can't pass the ball either. He doesn't **** his pants when he has to make a pass. He's not Steve Nash, but Gortat is an effective offensive player in the post.


Add in the fact that Millsap has to create his own shots and yet, post very similar stats on about the same efficiency(Gortat has slightly better TS%, Millsap has better PER) and you'd have to be a complete idiot to believe Gortat is better than Millsap offensively.

PER is not an solely offensive stat, so what does that have to do with anything? So...umm...wonder who the actual idiot is?

Eagles4Lyfe
05-01-2012, 12:41 PM
:laugh2: atta bwoy hommie wreck him

mightybosstone
05-01-2012, 01:07 PM
The lack of a write-up bothers me, but the Hornets have at least argued their case enough and they clearly have the superior team which matches up quite well with the Clippers. I like them to win the series in 5.

Homestar, after all that smack talk, it looks as if you got no further in the playoffs than I did. :cool:

VCaintdead17
05-01-2012, 01:30 PM
Why don't you look at the games where Nash didn't play at all? It's different bringing him off the court during the game than it is him not playing at all, but you're so stat-obsessed it doesn't matter I suppose. Stats cannot and will never be able to tell the whole story.

It's not like Russell Westbrook can't pass the ball either. He doesn't **** his pants when he has to make a pass. He's not Steve Nash, but Gortat is an effective offensive player in the post.



PER is not an solely offensive stat, so what does that have to do with anything? So...umm...wonder who the actual idiot is?

It measures offensive efficiency, therefore it is relevant. Also, you say stats don't tell the whole story, yet, when saying Gortat is better than Millsap offensively, the only thing you referenced was his efficiency....that's it! Have you even watched the Suns play this year? What about the Jazz? If you honestly think that Gortat is a better offensive player than Milly because of his SLIGHTLY more efficient numbers, (even though stats don't tell the whole story, right?;)) then why is Utah currently battling in th playoffs? Millsap and Gortat are both the second best players on their respective teams, only difference is Gortat has an elite point guard feeding him the ball, while Millsap has to create his own offense while also playing second banana to a black hole in Al Jefferson.


Millsap has better post moves, a better jumper and a better back to the basket game than Gortat. His impact offensively is much more impactful than Gortat's.

Baller1
05-01-2012, 01:35 PM
The lack of a write-up bothers me, but the Hornets have at least argued their case enough and they clearly have the superior team which matches up quite well with the Clippers. I like them to win the series in 5.

Homestar, after all that smack talk, it looks as if you got no further in the playoffs than I did. :cool:

Your team should've advanced too.

mightybosstone
05-01-2012, 01:40 PM
If we're arguing strictly who is the better offensive player, it's clearly Millsap and I don't think it's a close argument. Not only does he score more often than Gortat, he has a higher USG% than Gortat, gets to the line more than Gortat, has more range on his jumper than Gortat, is a better ball handler/passer and is assisted on only 51% of his field goals compared to Gortat's 81%.

Clearly Gortat adds value as a defensive player, but even before you take out the massive "Steve Nash affect" Millsap is still the better offensive player.

homestarunner93
05-01-2012, 02:08 PM
It measures offensive efficiency, therefore it is relevant. Also, you say stats don't tell the whole story, yet, when saying Gortat is better than Millsap offensively, the only thing you referenced was his efficiency....that's it! Have you even watched the Suns play this year? What about the Jazz? If you honestly think that Gortat is a better offensive player than Milly because of his SLIGHTLY more efficient numbers, (even though stats don't tell the whole story, right?;)) then why is Utah currently battling in th playoffs? Millsap and Gortat are both the second best players on their respective teams, only difference is Gortat has an elite point guard feeding him the ball, while Millsap has to create his own offense while also playing second banana to a black hole in Al Jefferson.


Millsap has better post moves, a better jumper and a better back to the basket game than Gortat. His impact offensively is much more impactful than Gortat's.

So...because Utah is in the playoffs and the Suns are not, that means Millsap is a better offensive player? Good one. I suppose that means he's better than Kevin Love too, right? Sure, Millsap doesn't play with a great passing PG, but calling Al Jefferson a black hole is dumb. He used to be one like 3 years ago, but he's a great offensive player right now.

Ok, and I think he doesn't.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-01-2012, 02:10 PM
Why don't you look at the games where Nash didn't play at all? It's different bringing him off the court during the game than it is him not playing at all, but you're so stat-obsessed it doesn't matter I suppose. Stats cannot and will never be able to tell the whole story.

It's not like Russell Westbrook can't pass the ball either. He doesn't **** his pants when he has to make a pass. He's not Steve Nash, but Gortat is an effective offensive player in the post.


I'm pretty sure that does include the games Nash missed. He's missed 4 games and that had him on the bench with 300+ minutes. He's technically on the bench when he misses games. Either way, I think Gortat is helped by Nash.

However, I also said that Gortat is obviously a good player without Nash because of his production in Orlando. And yeah, having Westbrook will obviously help Gortat. I just said it was false to say that his production was nearly the same without Nash, because it wasn't. He's helped by Nash, plain an simple. For your team, it obviously doesn't matter as much since you have a PG that can help maximize Gortat's abilities.

Anyways, that had nothing to do with why I voted for the Hornets. I think the surrounding talent on both of your teams is comparable but because Wade is the better player than Westbrook, I went with the Hornets.

homestarunner93
05-01-2012, 02:10 PM
The lack of a write-up bothers me, but the Hornets have at least argued their case enough and they clearly have the superior team which matches up quite well with the Clippers. I like them to win the series in 5.

Homestar, after all that smack talk, it looks as if you got no further in the playoffs than I did. :cool:

I recall saying you weren't going to build anything significant around Deron Williams given your situation. And you realized that too, as you traded him away.

VCaintdead17
05-01-2012, 02:14 PM
So...because Utah is in the playoffs and the Suns are not, that means Millsap is a better offensive player? Good one. I suppose that means he's better than Kevin Love too, right? Sure, Millsap doesn't play with a great passing PG, but calling Al Jefferson a black hole is dumb. He used to be one like 3 years ago, but he's a great offensive player right now.

Ok, and I think he doesn't.

Lol that's not what I'm saying at all, but I'm not going to argue with someone who has no reading comprehension, constantly contradicts themselves and think that stats lie.

Catfish1314
05-01-2012, 02:44 PM
while Millsap has to create his own offense while also playing second banana to a black hole in Al Jefferson.

Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. Hey. Hey. Leave Al Jefferson and his 2.3 assists to one turnover per game out of this :p

Sportfan
05-01-2012, 06:17 PM
Bump

homestarunner93
05-01-2012, 10:22 PM
Lol that's not what I'm saying at all, but I'm not going to argue with someone who has no reading comprehension, constantly contradicts themselves and think that stats lie.

You are pretty pathetic if you think stats are infallible and tell the whole story. They clearly don't, otherwise teams would have no use for any sort of video analysis or scouting of any players.

VCaintdead17
05-01-2012, 10:35 PM
Yet, the only thing you've said to defend you statement that Gortat is better offensively than Millsap is his slightly higher efficiency. You've literally said nothing else.

Stop contradicting yourself and defend your argument better or admit you're wrong.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-02-2012, 12:33 PM
bump

Sportfan
05-02-2012, 03:59 PM
nooooooooooo please win clippers!!!