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View Full Version : Best on ball defender



justinnum1
04-23-2012, 10:56 PM
Who is the best on ball defender in the league.

I will keep this simple to 5 different guys.

Also i am limiting it to perimeter players.

If you put other, right who you think

YashBoone
04-23-2012, 11:00 PM
Shump

godolphins
04-23-2012, 11:01 PM
Shump

/thread

Blitzbolt
04-23-2012, 11:01 PM
Tony Allen just got 9 steals in a game.The problem with him is the lack of Media attention the Grizzlies get.Most if not all fans don't know how great he really is game in and game out.

EnWhyKay
04-23-2012, 11:02 PM
I will go with Iman Shumpert.. As a Rookie he has come up big in key moments for the Knicks on the perimeter.. Rose shot terribly when he played against the Knicks in the Garden and Iman Shumpert had a lot to do with it.. Just this Sunday he blew up a play the Hawks were trying to run for Joe Johnson with his tenacious ball denial..

All this as a rookie.. He gets my Vote..

Evolution23
04-23-2012, 11:02 PM
If I say Shumpert will some one say all Knicks fans think he is Michael Jordan?

justinnum1
04-23-2012, 11:02 PM
I went with tony allen as well. Dude is a beast. But you cant go wrong with iggy.

justinnum1
04-23-2012, 11:03 PM
If I say Shumpert will some one say all Knicks fans think he is Michael Jordan?

No,

PAOboston
04-23-2012, 11:04 PM
i'll say tony allen b/c of longevity.

but i've been impressed with the knick's shumpert. also, people shouldnt forget abotu avery bradley. dude is an absolute beast defensively. gives opposing pg's freaking nightmares.

psperry34116
04-23-2012, 11:05 PM
Avery Bradley? Not saying hes the best in the league, but he deserves some props. Id go with T.A and also where the hell is Lebron?

knicksfan42
04-23-2012, 11:05 PM
Avery Bradley should be an option imo.

EnWhyKay
04-23-2012, 11:05 PM
Why make mention of our argument if this is to be an unbiased poll.. Then follow it up with a built in excuse if u lose?.. Lmao u r a joke...

justinnum1
04-23-2012, 11:06 PM
Avery Bradley should be an option imo.

****, your right, completely forgot him.

justinnum1
04-23-2012, 11:06 PM
Why make mention of our argument if this is to be an unbiased poll.. Then follow it up with a built in excuse if u lose?.. Lmao u r a joke...

fine i erase it. its obvious you were wrong tho.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
04-23-2012, 11:06 PM
i'll say tony allen b/c of longevity.

but i've been impressed with the knick's shumpert. also, people shouldnt forget abotu avery bradley. dude is an absolute beast defensively. gives opposing pg's freaking nightmares.


Avery Bradley? Not saying hes the best in the league, but he deserves some props. Id go with T.A and also where the hell is Lebron?


Avery Bradley should be an option imo.

Also add in the fact that Hollinger has him on his All Defensive first team as well.

justinnum1
04-23-2012, 11:07 PM
i asked a mod to add bradley

bradley is certinaly top 5.

EnWhyKay
04-23-2012, 11:09 PM
fine i erase it. its obvious you were wrong tho.

How so the poll just opened and it looks like guys are replying without even voting in the poll.. Give it a day or two...

Sportfan
04-23-2012, 11:09 PM
lol, shumpert isnt even top 5 and he's winning?


Iggy, TA, Deng, Lebron, Thabo, Avery are top 6

justinnum1
04-23-2012, 11:09 PM
How so the poll just opened and it looks like guys are replying without even voting in the poll.. Give it a day or two...

i didnt erase the poll, just my comment about you, i didnt put an end date on the poll, we will just let it go

InRoseWeTrust
04-23-2012, 11:10 PM
Out of Bulls homerism I'd love to vote Deng, but can't. He's a solid defender and plays D consistently, but I've got to go with Allen here.

People voting Shump....:facepalm:

MELO7NYK/DENfan
04-23-2012, 11:10 PM
I went with tony allen as well. Dude is a beast. But you cant go wrong with iggy.

Tony Allen is a beast; also, I think he's kinda underated if i had to choose it would be either Allen or shump.

EnWhyKay
04-23-2012, 11:11 PM
i didnt erase the poll, just my comment about you, i didnt put an end date on the poll, we will just let it go

Cool..

2-ONE-5
04-23-2012, 11:13 PM
Iggy. Call it a homer pick but its still the right pick

Justsomeguy76
04-23-2012, 11:16 PM
I'd have to say Iggy as well (may just be that I watch him on a regular basis), the only guy he can't hold to a bad shooting night is LeBron, and really who can? Can't take anything away from Tony Allen though, it's kind of a toss up.

Avery Bradley's got some great skills too.

metsrock229
04-23-2012, 11:21 PM
Iggy. Call it a homer pick but its still the right pick

Better homer pick than my fellow Knick fans making homer picks.

Shumpert is a good defender and has the potential to become a top 3/5 on ball defender. I'm sure most people would agree with me.

Calling him the best already is just absurd.

I went with Tony Allen, it was between Iggy and Allen, but decided to go with Allen. Could go either way to be honest.

Lakeshow24KB
04-23-2012, 11:22 PM
Tony Allen is a beast. Not many people have his quickness and IQ.

EnWhyKay
04-23-2012, 11:29 PM
How picking Shumpert is absurd is absurd if I ask me... Shump can guards 1's, 2's, & 3's.... He is an elite defender in my book and u can rely on him for a stop...

DR_1
04-23-2012, 11:33 PM
Also add in the fact that Hollinger has him on his All Defensive first team as well.

That doesn't help :laugh2:

meloman1592
04-23-2012, 11:37 PM
Those who say Shump doesn't deserve it :facepalm:

Tony Allen is my pick because of longevity. Shump is second, then iggy. Bradley is on par with them but he's a but small

DragonJaii
04-23-2012, 11:44 PM
shump is a great defender but not the best. Probably in a few years. I'll go with allen

THE GIPPER
04-23-2012, 11:45 PM
If Shumpert was on the Bobcats he would be a scrub. However he is on the knicks therefore he is the 2nd coming of Michael Jordan.

airforceones25
04-23-2012, 11:47 PM
couple very underrated names.

Eric Gordon - just never is healthy so he is rarely noticed.
Eric Bledsoe - stuck behind a plethora of guards on the Clippers but the kid is a lockdown player.

also got to believe Metta needs to be on the list... Dude is a complete tool but sure as hell can play defense.

all that being said based on the question i'd say Tony Allen.

Hester23Jordan
04-23-2012, 11:49 PM
Iggy,Allen>>>>>>>>>Shumpert

MELO 15
04-23-2012, 11:50 PM
Shump Shump, and if he played for another team he would be the best defender in the game, but he plays for the knicks, u know how that goes:eyebrow:

Tmac,lt,berkman
04-23-2012, 11:51 PM
no love for chadler parsons?

MELO 15
04-23-2012, 11:51 PM
Iggy,Allen>>>>>>>>>Shumpert

Tell that to rose:p

meloman1592
04-23-2012, 11:52 PM
couple very underrated names.

Eric Gordon - just never is healthy so he is rarely noticed.
Eric Bledsoe - stuck behind a plethora of guards on the Clippers but the kid is a lockdown player.

also got to believe Metta needs to be on the list... Dude is a complete tool but sure as hell can play defense.

all that being said based on the question i'd say Tony Allen.

This...Bledsoe absolutely clamps down

TheIlladelph16
04-23-2012, 11:53 PM
Gotta go homer pick on this with Iggy, but Tony Allen and Avery Bradley are both equally deserving. Lebron and Deng probably round out the top five.

Knicks guys: Shumpert is a very good defender. He can guard multiple positions and has proven it this season. He is NOT the best yet on-the-ball defender..... He has the potential to be that guy and I can easily see it happening. Far too young at this point, whereas other guys have proven it (Lebron, Iggy, Deng, Allen) over the course of multiple seasons.

Hester23Jordan
04-23-2012, 11:59 PM
Tell that to rose:p

Shumpert was great against Rose, the kid has serious potential defensively. With that said, he is still not at the level of Iggy or Tony Allen.

InRoseWeTrust
04-24-2012, 12:04 AM
Tell that to rose:p

Rose was bricking layups and open shots in his first game back after missing a month. He got to the rim when he wanted to, and by in large took the shots he wanted to. Stop overrating Shumpert's effect on him.

MELO 15
04-24-2012, 12:05 AM
Gotta go homer pick on this with Iggy, but Tony Allen and Avery Bradley are both equally deserving. Lebron and Deng probably round out the top five.

Knicks guys: Shumpert is a very good defender. He can guard multiple positions and has proven it this season. He is NOT the best yet on-the-ball defender..... He has the potential to be that guy and I can easily see it happening. Far too young at this point, whereas other guys have proven it (Lebron, Iggy, Deng, Allen) over the course of multiple seasons.

Says the guy who round up Avery bradley as his top five, so what your saying is that Avery is a better defender than and Avery has 1 year on shump, what a big difference:facepalm:

MrfadeawayJB
04-24-2012, 12:11 AM
Those who say Shump doesn't deserve it :facepalm:

Tony Allen is my pick because of longevity. Shump is second, then iggy. Bradley is on par with them but he's a but small

I agree with everything you said

justinnum1
04-24-2012, 12:13 AM
Tell that to rose:p

http://iphonewhatever.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/not_sure_if_serious_8.jpg

Crackadalic
04-24-2012, 12:16 AM
Iggy has been the best on the ball defender all season. gotta go with him

looka09
04-24-2012, 12:23 AM
Igoudala.

Master Mind
04-24-2012, 12:27 AM
Tony Allen

metsrock229
04-24-2012, 12:31 AM
How picking Shumpert is absurd is absurd if I ask me... Shump can guards 1's, 2's, & 3's.... He is an elite defender in my book and u can rely on him for a stop...

You are being a homer. Please stop, you are giving Knick fans a bad image along with a few other posters in here and in other threads. No wonder why this forum hates Knick fans.

Shumpert is a great on-ball defender and you can rely on him for a stop. Nobody is arguing that. Guys like Tony Allen and Iggy do it better though. Shump still has a few more years before he could be considered the best.

Also, you're book doesn't mean anything to anyone besides yourself. You can have your opinion of where Shumpert ranks as a defender, but if you have him at #1 right now, you're wrong. Come back in a few years.

Believe me, as a Knicks fan, I wish this was true. It's not.

Lakers + Giants
04-24-2012, 12:35 AM
I voted Tony Allen. Dude gives kobe the most trouble out of anyone on that list.

KnicksPain
04-24-2012, 12:47 AM
Could Philly fans enlighten me on how good of a defender Iggy is? Not baiting Ive always thought he was a great defender and is now maybe the most underrated passer in the league but I havent seen enough of him to understand the things he does to make himself a great defender.

I voted for Allen he is brutal and his anticipation and help d is elite. But in a few year Shumpert and Bradley sheeesh.

ryang
04-24-2012, 12:47 AM
shumpert should not be in the discussion.. If certain people feel like he should see first round of the playoffs.. oh i know it hasnt even started by the way just saying revisit this aftewards

ryang
04-24-2012, 12:48 AM
the old allen yes today deng or lebron

RonE Coleman
04-24-2012, 12:52 AM
Shumpert, if he's not already the best he will be next year

ryang
04-24-2012, 12:56 AM
deng and lebron will play better defensively in this years playoffs then shumpert will.. beleive it or dont beleive it you will see soon enough..

justinnum1
04-24-2012, 12:58 AM
Shumpert, if he's not already the best he will be next year

He's not close to being the best. Like someone else said, if shumpert played for the bobcats, he would be a nobody.

He is a good defender and a nice rookie, but to say he is the best on ball defender is a prime example of homerism.

b@llhog24
04-24-2012, 12:59 AM
Allen.

smood999
04-24-2012, 01:12 AM
how is avery bradley in the discussion but not shump...im not voting for shump...hes only a rookie...but avery bradley gets all the respect but not shumpert..am i missing something??? regardless of what u think about shumpert as a player...we r talking strictly on defense...its one thing to say allen and iggy over shump..fine shumpert maybe hasnt earned that yet...but avery bradley...its not disrespectful that bradley is in the convo but it is that hes in and shumperts out...

justinnum1
04-24-2012, 01:14 AM
how is avery bradley in the discussion but not shump...im not voting for shump...hes only a rookie...but avery bradley gets all the respect but not shumpert..am i missing something??? regardless of what u think about shumpert as a player...we r talking strictly on defense...its one thing to say allen and iggy over shump..fine shumpert maybe hasnt earned that yet...but avery bradley...its not disrespectful that bradley is in the convo but it is that hes in and shumperts out...

both arent in discussion for the best imo. But there are some people in here proclaiming shump to be the best on ball defender in the NBA. its pretty ludicrous when you think about it lol

ryang
04-24-2012, 01:16 AM
take bradys fake tying of the laces ***** down 2

SanAntonioSpurs23
04-24-2012, 01:20 AM
If Shumpert is seriously being considered I'm going to be a homer and say Kawhi Leonard is just as good if not better ;).

My vote goes to Tony Allen

QueensG
04-24-2012, 01:23 AM
shump for sure...a lot of knick haters in here

justinnum1
04-24-2012, 01:25 AM
shump for sure...a lot of knick haters in here

Quite a few homers as well:eyebrow:

smood999
04-24-2012, 01:34 AM
both arent in discussion for the best imo. But there are some people in here proclaiming shump to be the best on ball defender in the NBA. its pretty ludicrous when you think about it lol

alright thats fine...allen and iggy have been doing it for longer and r both without a doubt elite and have been two of the best for a while now...i wouldnt put the rookie there yet...even though for a rookie he's a great defender...i wouldnt bet against him legitimately being in the convo in another yr or two though...now is a little premature...

HesterJordan23
04-24-2012, 01:35 AM
so rose scores 29 points in a loss to the knicks and was shooting 30% coming back from injury... ill give sum credit to shump.. then rose comes back and scores 32 in a win against the knicks.. 29 points and 32 points and now all of a sudden shumpert is the defensive king??

im sorry but for reg season i give it to iggy but for playoffs soon to come i say deng or lebron...

plus the knicks get away with slapping and whackin players like no other in there home... great defense yes but there is alot of plays where they should be getting the foul..

smood999
04-24-2012, 01:40 AM
i will say this about shumpert...hes one of the best ive seen at stealing the ball from the opponents hands...alot of players play the passing lanes and accumulate alot of steals that way...he just picks ppl...

ellington19
04-24-2012, 01:40 AM
tony allen, shumpert, avery, iggy, in that order.

Reptar
04-24-2012, 01:44 AM
It's Igoudala and its not really close

CoffeeJanitor
04-24-2012, 02:17 AM
Why is shumpert up there?

Raph12
04-24-2012, 03:13 AM
Iggy has my vote...

Dankster
04-24-2012, 03:22 AM
so rose scores 29 points in a loss to the knicks and was shooting 30% coming back from injury... ill give sum credit to shump.. then rose comes back and scores 32 in a win against the knicks.. 29 points and 32 points and now all of a sudden shumpert is the defensive king??

im sorry but for reg season i give it to iggy but for playoffs soon to come i say deng or lebron...

plus the knicks get away with slapping and whackin players like no other in there home... great defense yes but there is alot of plays where they should be getting the foul..

There's so many things wrong with the bolded part that I'll take my time with it as you have your chronology completely wrong.

The games I'm assuming you're speaking about was on April 8th and 10th against the Knicks. Rose did drop 29 points on a very efficient 8-26 FG shooting with 8 TURNOVERS.

Seems you're really big into how many points D-Rose scores, but you don't want to delve into more details about how many shots he had to chuck up just to get his point total to look respectable. Or the fact he looked like a turnover machine.

As for Rose scoring 32 the next game, well I don't know what game you were watching since Rose didn't play in the game we lost up in Chicago on April 10th. Your post is all over the place champ and it's riddled with errors.

Back to the thread---I'm a huge Shumpert fan but I wouldn't call him the best man defender just for the sole reason the guy is a rookie. Rookies should never get the label as best in the league in any facet of the game--titles like that are gained with years of hard work and diligence and shouldn't be coined/labeled to a rookie.

That being said I wouldn't be shocked if Iman becomes a perennial All NBA defender in the years to come.

Patman
04-24-2012, 04:28 AM
If Shumpert is seriously being considered I'm going to be a homer and say Kawhi Leonard is just as good if not better ;).

My vote goes to Tony Allen

Haha yeah, IF Leonard and Shumpert would change places, most knicks fans would hail Leonard as the best defender....... Shumpert is good no question, but damn he gets overrated. But hey that's nothing new, remember Landry fields last year, this year it's Shumpert.

Still can't believe that Thabo doesn't get any love, the reason the guy gets PT is because he is an incredible defender. But can't argue with Tony Allen or Iggy

Lakerhead4ever
04-24-2012, 04:50 AM
Ron Artest...

can guard anyone from cp3 to dirk. he has some of the best hands in the game.

not saying he is the best one on one defender in the game but he is certainly up there.

there are also other players that should be listed.

Shane Battier
Grant Hill!!
Rondo
Shawn Marion!!

some players listed arent good one on one defenders. Lebron and Tony allen are great in between pass defenders

RonE Coleman
04-24-2012, 08:57 AM
shumpert should not be in the discussion.. If certain people feel like he should see first round of the playoffs.. oh i know it hasnt even started by the way just saying revisit this aftewards

Bahahahhaaha wtf, okay homer.

Blitzbolt
04-24-2012, 09:03 AM
i will say this about shumpert...hes one of the best ive seen at stealing the ball from the opponents hands...alot of players play the passing lanes and accumulate alot of steals that way...he just picks ppl...

Tont Allen got 9 steals last night vs the Cavs I figure you don't see him play much.

Allen 6 in steals first in steals per minute.

KnicksorBust
04-24-2012, 09:09 AM
Great timing for this thread with Tony Allen's huge defensive game last night.

I still think it's Iguodala. I'd love to see my boy Shumpert make all-defensive 3rd team this year though. That'd be great.

goose14741
04-24-2012, 09:11 AM
Hmm

rpgmaster86
04-24-2012, 09:27 AM
shane battier has very good footwork...jeffries is pretty good as well but my vote goes to shumpert only cuz he's a rookie and his ceiling could be thru the roof

dbramforskins21
04-24-2012, 09:31 AM
I'd have to say Iggy as well (may just be that I watch him on a regular basis), the only guy he can't hold to a bad shooting night is LeBron, and really who can? Can't take anything away from Tony Allen though, it's kind of a toss up.

Avery Bradley's got some great skills too.

I'm a sixers fan...Iggy is my pick call it homer or not. And to who can? Its not who its "crunch time" is what holds LeBron to a bad shooting night.( I asked him for a dollar in change but only gave me 3 quarters :cool:) But to be honest half the time we dont even get to see the one v one matchups we'd like to.

EnWhyKay
04-24-2012, 09:31 AM
You are being a homer. Please stop, you are giving Knick fans a bad image along with a few other posters in here and in other threads. No wonder why this forum hates Knick fans.

Shumpert is a great on-ball defender and you can rely on him for a stop. Nobody is arguing that. Guys like Tony Allen and Iggy do it better though. Shump still has a few more years before he could be considered the best.

Also, you're book doesn't mean anything to anyone besides yourself. You can have your opinion of where Shumpert ranks as a defender, but if you have him at #1 right now, you're wrong. Come back in a few years.

Believe me, as a Knicks fan, I wish this was true. It's not.

Listen dude.. Cut it out.. Are you picking Allen for the sake of not being called a homer?.. As far as im concerned I could give a damn about being called a homer.. Something in which everybody is.. Everybody is a homer for their own teams players... It isnt just knicks fans.. You got people picking Iggy who are sixer fans and people picking Deng who are Bulls fans so what..

It does not negate the FACT that SHUMPERT as a ROOKIE.. Should absolutely if nothing else.. Be in the conversation.. It isnt just Knick fans who see how good he is defensively.. Anybody who has watched him play knows this.. Jon Barry, Michael Wilbon, Magic Johnson, and countless other analyst will tell you Iman Shumpert is an ELITE on Ball defender... It has nothing to do with being a homer.. It is basketball..

It is not at all absurd to put Shump in this discussion at all.. And that is the point I am trying to drive home here...

As far as Leonard is concerned he is a good defender but he plays on the interior.. He isnt a wing defender and the poll was narrowed down to guys that play on the perimeter..

justinnum1
04-24-2012, 09:32 AM
shane battier has very good footwork...jeffries is pretty good as well but my vote goes to shumpert only cuz he's a rookie and his ceiling could be thru the roof

we are talking about right now, not ceiling...you think shumpert is the best right now?

NYKnicks4511
04-24-2012, 09:37 AM
1. Allen
2. Iggy
3. Shumpert

I think eventually Shumpert could move up to #2 or even #1, given the fact that he's a rookie and has yet to adapt to player tendencies.

TheIlladelph16
04-24-2012, 09:41 AM
Says the guy who round up Avery bradley as his top five, so what your saying is that Avery is a better defender than and Avery has 1 year on shump, what a big difference:facepalm:

If you actually read what I said, I named the other four guys as ones who have proven it in the past and didn't include Bradley for your stated reason. Bradley is in there because I think he is a better defender and has had a great year. Read before you respond with a dumb statement and facepalm

Patman
04-24-2012, 10:06 AM
Listen dude.. Cut it out.. Are you picking Allen for the sake of not being called a homer?.. As far as im concerned I could give a damn about being called a homer.. Something in which everybody is.. Everybody is a homer for their own teams players... It isnt just knicks fans.. You got people picking Iggy who are sixer fans and people picking Deng who are Bulls fans so what..

It does not negate the FACT that SHUMPERT as a ROOKIE.. Should absolutely if nothing else.. Be in the conversation.. It isnt just Knick fans who see how good he is defensively.. Anybody who has watched him play knows this.. Jon Barry, Michael Wilbon, Magic Johnson, and countless other analyst will tell you Iman Shumpert is an ELITE on Ball defender... It has nothing to do with being a homer.. It is basketball..

It is not at all absurd to put Shump in this discussion at all.. And that is the point I am trying to drive home here...

As far as Leonard is concerned he is a good defender but he plays on the interior.. He isnt a wing defender and the poll was narrowed down to guys that play on the perimeter..

Haha you don't watch the spurs do you? Pop puts him on the best Perimeter/ Wing player, he is a Perimeter defender.

EnWhyKay
04-24-2012, 10:14 AM
Haha you don't watch the spurs do you? Pop puts him on the best Perimeter/ Wing player, he is a Perimeter defender.

You know what.. I got him mixed up with the guy from Denver.. With the Dreds... And No I do no watch the Spurs.. You got me there.. I was thinking of.. Man I can't remember his name...

Swashcuff
04-24-2012, 10:26 AM
Andre Iguodala and Tony Allen are in a class of their own when it comes to individual perimeter man D.

Swashcuff
04-24-2012, 10:35 AM
To those voting Shumpert I'd really like to hear your reason. Iggy and Allen does everything Shumpert does but just better. To this point I'm yet to see anyone give a reason as to why Shumpert is already the best in the league.

Swashcuff
04-24-2012, 10:46 AM
Listen dude.. Cut it out.. Are you picking Allen for the sake of not being called a homer?.. As far as im concerned I could give a damn about being called a homer.. Something in which everybody is.. Everybody is a homer for their own teams players... It isnt just knicks fans.. You got people picking Iggy who are sixer fans and people picking Deng who are Bulls fans so what..

Because Deng and Iggy have a proven reputation and better? :shrug:

You also have Bulls fans picking Iggy and Philly fans picking Allen. So?


It does not negate the FACT that SHUMPERT as a ROOKIE.. Should absolutely if nothing else.. Be in the conversation.. It isnt just Knick fans who see how good he is defensively.. Anybody who has watched him play knows this.. Jon Barry, Michael Wilbon, Magic Johnson, and countless other analyst will tell you Iman Shumpert is an ELITE on Ball defender... It has nothing to do with being a homer.. It is basketball..

And they'd say the same about Ronnie Brewer, Thabo Sefolosha,LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, Battier Artest, Iguodala, Batum, Bradley, Deng, Allen, Mbah a Moute, Holiday, etc etc

So what's your point?


It is not at all absurd to put Shump in this discussion at all.. And that is the point I am trying to drive home here...

Shump is in the discussion but already acclaiming as the best when his team is better defensively when he's off the court as opposed to when he is on the court is truely absurd.


As far as Leonard is concerned he is a good defender but he plays on the interior.. He isnt a wing defender and the poll was narrowed down to guys that play on the perimeter..

Leonard guards 3 sometimes even 4 positions for the Spurs but he is usually asked to guard the opposing team's best perimeter player. I think you are a bit confused here.

mjm07
04-24-2012, 10:56 AM
Elite:

Iggy and Allen

Everyone else on the list is either good to very good but not elite. IMO.

godolphins
04-24-2012, 10:59 AM
:laugh: I can't believe people actually voted for Shumpert. According to advance stats Melo is a better defender than him: http://www.82games.com/1112/ROLRTG3.HTM

I voted for Iggy.

Patman
04-24-2012, 11:00 AM
You know what.. I got him mixed up with the guy from Denver.. With the Dreds... And No I do no watch the Spurs.. You got me there.. I was thinking of.. Man I can't remember his name...


I think you mean kenneth faried.
Look I will not dispute the fact that Shumpert is already really good and has the upside to get there, but this year there are players that are better on ball Defenders.
Look many NY fans tend to overrate their players especially rookies, last year it was landry fields and before that it was Wilson Chandler. Homerism is normal to some extend but it seems to me that the NY fans just go the extra mile.


Still don't understand why Thabo doesn't get any respect the reason the guy is in the league is his defense.

EnWhyKay
04-24-2012, 11:14 AM
I think you mean kenneth faried.
Look I will not dispute the fact that Shumpert is already really good and has the upside to get there, but this year there are players that are better on ball Defenders.
Look many NY fans tend to overrate their players especially rookies, last year it was landry fields and before that it was Wilson Chandler. Homerism is normal to some extend but it seems to me that the NY fans just go the extra mile.


Still don't understand why Thabo doesn't get any respect the reason the guy is in the league is his defense.

I am with you... But understand where I am coming from.. Last year.. Before the Melo trade.. People were saying that the Knicks did not have enough assets to get Melo.. After the trade.. The Knicks gave up too much to get Melo.. And the same Assets we gave up all of a sudden were studs..

Earlier in the season when Denver was playing well and Melo was struggling under D'Antoni.. The Knicks should have kept their crop of players.. The Melo trade was a bust.. Hell when Linsanity started.. You had Knick fans calling for Melo's head.. Now that Melo has gotten his game back.. Nobody remembers any of this..

Wilson Chandler and Danillo Gallinari are good players.. I never overrated those guys.. But to act like its Blasphemous to put Iman Shumpert in the discussion of Best on Ball Defenders in the league is wrong IMO.. Thats all I am saying.. The man is definately in the discussion... It does not take away from what Tony Allen, Iggy, and some of the other guys have done in the league on the defensive end.. I think it just speaks volumes about what Iman Shumpert has been able to do as a rookie.. You cant just act like he hasnt been defending with the best of them especially in the last month.. Thats all I am sayin...

I dont think that is being a homer.. I just think that is acknowledging what the man has been able to do on the court.. He has gone up against some of the better guards in the game.. In Monta Ellis, Jennings, Rose, Wade, Holliday, Rondo, Collison, Jameer Nelon, etc... etc.. And has pretty much kept those guys in check and/or made their lives difficult out there..

The knicks resurgence has as much to do with defense as it does Melo's offensive production.. And Tyson Chandler and Iman Shumpert are a big part of that..

metsrock229
04-24-2012, 11:16 AM
Listen dude.. Cut it out.. Are you picking Allen for the sake of not being called a homer?.. As far as im concerned I could give a damn about being called a homer.. Something in which everybody is.. Everybody is a homer for their own teams players... It isnt just knicks fans.. You got people picking Iggy who are sixer fans and people picking Deng who are Bulls fans so what..

It does not negate the FACT that SHUMPERT as a ROOKIE.. Should absolutely if nothing else.. Be in the conversation.. It isnt just Knick fans who see how good he is defensively.. Anybody who has watched him play knows this.. Jon Barry, Michael Wilbon, Magic Johnson, and countless other analyst will tell you Iman Shumpert is an ELITE on Ball defender... It has nothing to do with being a homer.. It is basketball..

It is not at all absurd to put Shump in this discussion at all.. And that is the point I am trying to drive home here...

As far as Leonard is concerned he is a good defender but he plays on the interior.. He isnt a wing defender and the poll was narrowed down to guys that play on the perimeter..

Don't sit there and tell me to cut it out before posting that. I'm picking Allen because it was a toss-up between Iggy or Allen for the best. If I truly believed Shumpert was the best, I would pick him but he isn't there yet. He has the potential, but he's not there yet.

Calling yourself and everyone else a homer doesn't mean you are right when you pick your own player. Sixer fans obviously will pick Iggy because it's so damn close, 76er fans will pick their player.

It's not absurd to put Shump in the discussion. That's not what you're trying to prove. The point you are trying to drive home is that he is the best. He is simply not the best, not yet. He is on the outside looking in. He is a great defender, once again, nobody is arguing that. Nobody is saying he shouldn't be in the discussion with other top defenders, they are just saying that he is not the best.

There is a reason why only Knick fans have picked Shump in this poll. Almost every post I see that is Knick related by Justinnum is usually him disagreeing with Knick fans.. usually being a smartass doing it too (:p). I am 100% confident that he would agree with the few posts I have made in here.

I don't see why you can't understand that Shump is not the best. Not being the best defender yet does not take anything away from him.

AndyfromNeptune
04-24-2012, 11:18 AM
How about instead of blindly ranking player's defensive abilities, we talk about why each player is so talented on the defensive end?

As someone who has watched Shumpert, the entire year, he is an elite wing defender. He can guard shooting guards from Wade to Lebron to even Joe Johnson.

Where does he struggle? With quicker smaller point guards like JJ Barea, Deron Williams, etc. etc. He will need to improve on getting around screens as his career continues to develop.

It would be nice if other people who watch certain defenders closely would share their thoughts about those defenders as well.

If I wanted someone to guard Kobe, I would pick the following. I say this because I consider Kobe the hardest guard in the league.
1. Tony Allen
2. Iggy
3. Shumpert

justinnum1
04-24-2012, 11:20 AM
I dont think shump has one vote from a non knick fan.

Hawkeye15
04-24-2012, 11:21 AM
give me some Bradley. Dude is a pest. The next Lindsey Hunter on that side of the ball.

EnWhyKay
04-24-2012, 11:23 AM
Don't sit there and tell me to cut it out before posting that. I'm picking Allen because it was a toss-up between Iggy or Allen for the best. If I truly believed Shumpert was the best, I would pick him but he isn't there yet. He has the potential, but he's not there yet.

Calling yourself and everyone else a homer doesn't mean you are right when you pick your own player. Sixer fans obviously will pick Iggy because it's so damn close, 76er fans will pick their player.

It's not absurd to put Shump in the discussion. That's not what you're trying to prove. The point you are trying to drive home is that he is the best. He is simply not the best, not yet. He is on the outside looking in. He is a great defender, once again, nobody is arguing that. Nobody is saying he shouldn't be in the discussion with other top defenders, they are just saying that he is not the best.

There is a reason why only Knick fans have picked Shump in this poll. Almost every post I see that is Knick related by Justinnum is usually him disagreeing with Knick fans.. usually being a smartass doing it too (:p). I am 100% confident that he would agree with the few posts I have made in here.

I don't see why you can't understand that Shump is not the best. Not being the best defender yet does not take anything away from him.

Have you read some of the posts.. You got guys in her arguing sayin that Shump shouldnt even be in the conversation.. Thats who my comments are directed at.. At first Justinnum felt that Shump shouldnt even be in the conversation.. My whole thing is if he isnt the best.. He is up there.. Thats what I am arguing... I have read posts that said Shump isnt even top 5... Do you not think Shump is top 5 best on ball defenders?..

Again.. If Shump isnt the best he is in the discussion.. You cant talk about on ball defenders without mentioning him... And when you mention him u shouldnt be looked upon as a homer.. Thats the point I am trying to make here...

85BearsDefense
04-24-2012, 11:29 AM
I saw a stat showing the league leading defenders in FG % when 1 on 1 and Taj Gibson was leading at it was something like 12% or 22% I think it was 12% but my vote goes to him, based off he can guard anyone. He's been switched onto Lebron many times and others.

ManningToTyree
04-24-2012, 11:33 AM
Iggy right now. Give Shump a couple more years before he is at that level. He does belong on the poll, but he has a few guys ahead of him in my eyes.

justinnum1
04-24-2012, 11:34 AM
Have you read some of the posts.. You got guys in her arguing sayin that Shump shouldnt even be in the conversation.. Thats who my comments are directed at.. At first Justinnum felt that Shump shouldnt even be in the conversation.. My whole thing is if he isnt the best.. He is up there.. Thats what I am arguing... I have read posts that said Shump isnt even top 5... Do you not think Shump is top 5 best on ball defenders?..

Again.. If Shump isnt the best he is in the discussion.. You cant talk about on ball defenders without mentioning him... And when you mention him u shouldnt be looked upon as a homer.. Thats the point I am trying to make here...
You have been saying he is the best..


I saw a stat showing the league leading defenders in FG % when 1 on 1 and Taj Gibson was leading at it was something like 12% or 22% I think it was 12% but my vote goes to him, based off he can guard anyone. He's been switched onto Lebron many times and others.
I'd like to see those stats, not saying i dont beleive you but i would like to see what some other players look like 1vs 1

DaVille
04-24-2012, 11:39 AM
On numerous occasions, Kobe has said that Tony Allen was toughest defender he faced. That is coming from the one greatest scorers in NBA history Kobe.

dalton749
04-24-2012, 12:01 PM
:cool:
James Johnson

JayW_1023
04-24-2012, 12:09 PM
It's Deng, closely followed by Allen.

Shumpert is tenth at best. But solid nonetheless.

justinnum1
04-24-2012, 12:14 PM
shump aint top 5.

TrueFan420
04-24-2012, 12:14 PM
iggy and allen are tied so i went with iggy

JayW_1023
04-24-2012, 12:17 PM
In this order:


Deng
Allen
Marion
Sefolosha
Iguodala
Battier
(edit: RONDO)
World Peace
George Hill
LeBron
Afflalo
Shumpert
(edit: WADE)
Leonard

NYK4L
04-24-2012, 12:17 PM
If Shumpert was on the Bobcats he would be a scrub. However he is on the knicks therefore he is the 2nd coming of Michael Jordan.

Quickly turning into a Shump hate thread.

sharqstealth
04-24-2012, 12:21 PM
Potentialwise I go with Shump, but right now he isn't the best yet... It's a toss between Lebron and Tony Allen at this point... I'm not down with Iggy, I've seen Melo toast him too many times... But hey the playoffs is just around the corner, it'll be interesting to see how these guys will do when it matters most...

teddygreen17
04-24-2012, 12:22 PM
While I love Shumpert, he's a rookie and while he plays excellent defense and has the ability to follow his man laterally, he presses to much on the perimeter and does commit silly fouls.

I have to go with IGGY, he is strong, athletic, and i've seen him actually slow down Carmelo at least twice this season, not many people can say that.

JayW_1023
04-24-2012, 12:23 PM
Avery Bradley is good too, but not consistent. When he was good he was really good. But he is also pretty mediocre at times.

I need to see more consistency before I add him as an elite perimeter defender. Like his game alot though.

teddygreen17
04-24-2012, 12:24 PM
I also love Tony Allen, but did not see much of him this year. Plus he is getting older.

JayW_1023
04-24-2012, 12:24 PM
Paul Pierce, when he really wants to, is also capable of playing elite defense.

Marion is consistently slept on. while he isn't the rebounding athletic beast he once was, he has actually improved as a defensive specialist. Not in terms of statistics, but simple things like footwork and smarts.

I really like how he has adjusted his game now. He is an elite on the ball defender...in his prime, he was more of a hustle guy.

PhillySportFan
04-24-2012, 12:25 PM
This is a toughy, obviously being from Philly I'm biased towards Iggy but when Tony Allen came to town he dogged all our players. He's tough. I would say Tony Allen has the potential to get out of control and kind of take himself out of the game while Iggy is more even keel so even if things are going perfect he won't implode and get fouls and play over aggressive. Iggy doesn't need help defense really either, while with Tony Allen's more aggressive style you might need someone behind more so. I'm going with Iggy but it's close.

CHANGO
04-24-2012, 12:33 PM
IMO
Tony
Iggy
Gap
Deng, Bradley, Bron, Battier, Shump etc...

Swashcuff
04-24-2012, 12:41 PM
IMO
Tony
Iggy
Gap
Deng, Bradley, Bron, Battier, Shump etc...

Precisely. Based on their individual defensive play these past two seasons Iggy and Allen are both on a tier of their own.

Swashcuff
04-24-2012, 12:47 PM
Potentialwise I go with Shump, but right now he isn't the best yet... It's a toss between Lebron and Tony Allen at this point... I'm not down with Iggy, I've seen Melo toast him too many times... But hey the playoffs is just around the corner, it'll be interesting to see how these guys will do when it matters most...

Really? When was the last time you saw Melo "toast" Iggy. Over the past 2+ seasons Iggy has done a better job againstr Carmelo than damn near any other peimeter defender in the NBA. :confused:

PatsSoxKnicks
04-24-2012, 12:59 PM
I think you mean kenneth faried.
Look I will not dispute the fact that Shumpert is already really good and has the upside to get there, but this year there are players that are better on ball Defenders.
Look many NY fans tend to overrate their players especially rookies, last year it was landry fields and before that it was Wilson Chandler. Homerism is normal to some extend but it seems to me that the NY fans just go the extra mile.


Still don't understand why Thabo doesn't get any respect the reason the guy is in the league is his defense.

Yeah, same here- still surprised Thabo doesn't get any love. I don't think he's the best defender but he's definitely up there.

He's got an opponent PER of 8.9 this year, good synergy #'s and more astonishingly: in the 535 minutes he's been on the court, the Thunder have a 93.1 defensive rating but in the 1900 minutes he's been off the court, that defensive rating takes a nose dive to 107.3. That's a 14 point defensive rating difference for the Thunder, which is insanely high. It's likely prone to a small sample size but 500+ minutes is a decent amount. Or depending on your preference, he's 2nd in the NBA (http://basketballvalue.com/topplayers.php?year=2011-2012&mode=summary&sortnumber=85&sortorder=ASC) in net defensive rating on-off court.

And not coincidentally, the Thunder spent a lot of the time he was out with an injury outside the top 10 in defensive efficiency.

RonE Coleman
04-24-2012, 01:08 PM
Better question.... can any of these guys guard Melo? NOPE ;-)

ewing
04-24-2012, 01:25 PM
i took Tony but it depends on the match up.

Stinkyoutsider
04-24-2012, 01:41 PM
I vote for Thabo. Most underrated lock down defender in the game today.

Chronz
04-24-2012, 01:53 PM
Paul Pierce, when he really wants to, is also capable of playing elite defense.

Marion is consistently slept on. while he isn't the rebounding athletic beast he once was, he has actually improved as a defensive specialist. Not in terms of statistics, but simple things like footwork and smarts.

I really like how he has adjusted his game now. He is an elite on the ball defender...in his prime, he was more of a hustle guy.
Funny I used to think Marion was overrated defensively, so I get the same feeling of Marion improving on the ball. Which is odd considering how athletic he used to be and how much pride he took in his Defensive versatility. Maybe hes playing more perimeter guys, maybe hes not as active in the team aspect, maybe its his support, maybe its the decline of other defenders or maybe he really has improved, whatever it is I cant shake the feeling thats hes a better 1 on 1 defender now.


Avery Bradley is good too, but not consistent. When he was good he was really good. But he is also pretty mediocre at times.

I need to see more consistency before I add him as an elite perimeter defender. Like his game alot though.
I think what your seeing is Bradley adjusting to the added minutes hes played. He reminds me of a young Tony. In a few years he could be where Tony is now

Chronz
04-24-2012, 01:55 PM
Shumpert reminds me of a younger Iggy (less talent/skill tho) so hes definitely NOT in Iggys class now.

Dankster
04-24-2012, 01:59 PM
Shumpert reminds me of a younger Iggy (less talent/skill tho) so hes definitely NOT in Iggys class now.

How exactly is he less talented? I love Iggy, but man has his offensive game regressed. He was coined to be the next big star after A.I. left town and he has absolutely not lived to that label or that exorbitant contract he signed. Both of them have a lot of similarities- they both can jump out of the gym, both very streaky shooters and both are pests with their man defense on the ball.

At least Shumpert has time to prove his offensive game. Iggy I think is closing in on 30 already, so I'd assume this is as good as it gets with Andre.

And I'm not a Knicks homer, I recognize Tony Allen as being the best defensive wing player in the league. I've felt that way since his time with the Celtics and he's carried that over quite successfully in Memphis.

NoahH
04-24-2012, 02:03 PM
tony ****ing allen

Weezy
04-24-2012, 02:06 PM
Shumpert reminds me of a younger Iggy (less talent/skill tho) so hes definitely NOT in Iggys class now.

I agree, doesn't mean Shumpert is bad or anything but he has that potential.

As for the best I gotta give it to Tony Allen and a very very close second is Iggy.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
04-24-2012, 02:12 PM
Tony Allen just got 9 steals in a game.The problem with him is the lack of Media attention the Grizzlies get.Most if not all fans don't know how great he really is game in and game out.

So did Allen Iverson, and Chris Paul just had 8 steals the other night, and neither are considerd great on-ball defenders, Just play passing lanes really well. Not saying Tony Allen isn't a great on-ball defender, just you're reason for him being a great defender wasn't a good one.

RonE Coleman
04-24-2012, 02:28 PM
Paul Pierce, when he really wants to, is also capable of playing elite defense.

Marion is consistently slept on. while he isn't the rebounding athletic beast he once was, he has actually improved as a defensive specialist. Not in terms of statistics, but simple things like footwork and smarts.

I really like how he has adjusted his game now. He is an elite on the ball defender...in his prime, he was more of a hustle guy.

Am I the only one who noticed this ridiculous statement? Lol go home man, Pierce is an average defender AT BEST

RonE Coleman
04-24-2012, 02:30 PM
And for all you Shump haters... word for word... Lindsey Hunter said Iman Shumpert is the best on ball defender in the NBA. Ill take his word over any of you homers

Ill21
04-24-2012, 02:55 PM
Shump-Homer Pick

Toney Allen-non-homer pick

Chronz
04-24-2012, 03:21 PM
How exactly is he less talented? I love Iggy, but man has his offensive game regressed. He was coined to be the next big star after A.I. left town and he has absolutely not lived to that label or that exorbitant contract he signed. Both of them have a lot of similarities- they both can jump out of the gym, both very streaky shooters and both are pests with their man defense on the ball.
Shumpert can jump out the gym but Iggy is slightly taller and longer, in terms of talent I value that but I wont blame you for disagreeing, as they have some similarities on both ends thats for sure, but Iggy was and is better at every aspect though. However if by talent you mean in conjunction with skillset, then Iggy was a better ball handler, passer, overall decision maker.


At least Shumpert has time to prove his offensive game. Iggy I think is closing in on 30 already, so I'd assume this is as good as it gets with Andre.

I would be extremely impressed if Shumpert manages to get as good as Iggy is now offensively, but hes off to a slow start considering his production, still the lockout has me thinking twice before writing anyone off.

Corey
04-24-2012, 03:25 PM
Averyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

Chronz
04-24-2012, 03:25 PM
Am I the only one who noticed this ridiculous statement? Lol go home man, Pierce is an average defender AT BEST
On the ball, sure maybe now he is but hes still a heady smart defender and in his prime was a great defender.

RonE Coleman
04-24-2012, 03:31 PM
Shumpert can jump out the gym but Iggy is slightly taller and longer, in terms of talent I value that but I wont blame you for disagreeing, as they have some similarities on both ends thats for sure, but Iggy was and is better at every aspect though.


I would be extremely impressed if Shumpert manages to get as good as Iggy is now offensively, but hes off to a slow start considering his production, still the lockout has me thinking twice before writing anyone off.

A slow start considering? Shumpert is averaging less minutes but half a point more then Iggy in his rookie season... essentially the same amount of assists and 2 less rebounds.. but iggy started from the get go and didn't have guys like melo amare chandler in front of him to get rebounds. Shumps fg % is a lot lower but he has been shooting the ball better lately but is not close to the finisher around the basket that iggy is. With that said I would be shocked if Shumpert doesn't develop a much better offensive game then iggy. Neither one is a good shooter but Shumpert has the time to get better. Shumpert won't have the ppg nor the assists but that will be because the majority of the shots will be going to melo and amare for at least 3 more years to come.

RonE Coleman
04-24-2012, 03:35 PM
On the ball, sure maybe now he is but hes still a heady smart defender and in his prime was a great defender.

Im sorry but your 100% off base... Pierce actually was NEVER a great defender and is still not. All those years the Celtics were bad all he cared about was the individual accolades and the points. He did not begin to even start playing defense until the Celtics brought in Thibodeau to run the defense and brought in KG as well. Sorry but your wrong man

mRc08
04-24-2012, 03:36 PM
Iggy, Shump, and Allen are at the top of the list right now IMO.

I will say, however, that Lebron could be the best on ball defender in the NBA if he wanted to be. If he were to focus the majority of his energy on defense, I think he would be. His has the physical skills (size, strength, foot speed, vertical) etc that automatically gives him an advantage over almost any defender. The problem is he needs to score for the heat to play well, and thus doesn't always bring the intensity. I expect him in the playoffs to once again become the best defender on the court in almost any game. I hate to say it, but i think he is the best defender out there right now, if he shows up willing to give 100% on D.

JayW_1023
04-24-2012, 03:58 PM
Am I the only one who noticed this ridiculous statement? Lol go home man, Pierce is an average defender AT BEST

I'm already at home and I'm being serious.

Chronz
04-24-2012, 04:02 PM
A slow start considering? Shumpert is averaging less minutes but half a point more then Iggy in his rookie season... essentially the same amount of assists and 2 less rebounds.. but iggy started from the get go and didn't have guys like melo amare chandler in front of him to get rebounds. Shumps fg % is a lot lower but he has been shooting the ball better lately but is not close to the finisher around the basket that iggy is.

Maybe but Im not buying your rebounding excuse, I hope you realize that the Knicks are a worse defensive rebounding team overall than the Sixers were back then. I know its easy to name names but when your talking about statistical production you have to consider the TEAM in its entirety. Also when we look at Shumperts rebounding without Melo/Chandler on the floor very little changes (about .1 per 36).
Simply put the margin that Iggy is outrebounding Shump is too great for your excuse to carry any weight. Not sure why your mentioning Amare tho.

His assist totals are similar but Iggy is more efficient with his passes, committing less passing turnovers per Assist and sporting the higher assist ratio, pure point rating, and passer rating.

So basically these 2 non-scoring areas of the game are in favor of Iggy, then you consider their individual scoring efficiency and its not even close.

So yes hes off to a slow start considering the stats (lower PER/WS/WARP etc...), Iggy was more productive, there isnt a single credible metric that rates shump as the better player, thats how horrendously inefficient Shump has been.
You can say hes shooting better but so was Iggy, nobody values small sample sizes that way. Consider that in the final month of the season Iggy was shooting 40% from 3. Imagine that. Yes he has time to become a better shooter but so did Rondo and so did Iggy. I wont be impressed until I see it come to fruition. As it stands Iggy was the superior prospect then .




With that said I would be shocked if Shumpert doesn't develop a much better offensive game then iggy.
LOL, yea because its quite common for inferior prospects to exceed their superior counterpart.


Neither one is a good shooter but Shumpert has the time to get better. Shumpert won't have the ppg nor the assists but that will be because the majority of the shots will be going to melo and amare for at least 3 more years to come.

I dont care about per game averages, you can make up for the lack of chucking by being more efficient, him getting out of the inefficient hell would be a helluva start.




Im sorry but your 100% off base... Pierce actually was NEVER a great defender and is still not.
Actually he was.


All those years the Celtics were bad all he cared about was the individual accolades and the points. He did not begin to even start playing defense until the Celtics brought in Thibodeau to run the defense and brought in KG as well. Sorry but your wrong man
Sorry but you have said nothing that would lead me to believe you have the slightest clue of how to measure a players ability.

JayW_1023
04-24-2012, 04:03 PM
Funny I used to think Marion was overrated defensively, so I get the same feeling of Marion improving on the ball. Which is odd considering how athletic he used to be and how much pride he took in his Defensive versatility. Maybe hes playing more perimeter guys, maybe hes not as active in the team aspect, maybe its his support, maybe its the decline of other defenders or maybe he really has improved, whatever it is I cant shake the feeling thats hes a better 1 on 1 defender now.



Not only better, but one of the best. He proved it in last years finals and this year as well.

He has lost some versatility with the decline in athleticism, but switching to SF has made him a more steady and skilled on the ball defender than ever. He defends with his footwork and body now as opposed to his hands.

Marion is a top 5 on the ball defender in this league now. He just doesn't get enough credit.

JayW_1023
04-24-2012, 04:19 PM
The reason why I rate Deng slightly over Tony Allen is real simple: SIZE. Tony is 6'4, while Deng is 6'10. With his length and quickness, along with the veteran savvy...he is equipped to guard pretty much anyone. His length and activity is a huge reason why the Bulls are the leagues best defensive team.


It's Deng and Allen by a landslide over everyone else.

Swashcuff
04-24-2012, 04:25 PM
How exactly is he less talented? I love Iggy, but man has his offensive game regressed.

Coming into the league Iggy was a better scorer, rebounder, passer and just as good a defender as Shump.


He was coined to be the next big star after A.I. left town and he has absolutely not lived to that label or that exorbitant contract he signed.

What does any of this have to do with talent? Iggy was a 20, 5 and 5 player in his day the system and support however was not there and his unique skill set wasn't used as good as it should have.

It was the organization's fault that Iggy was coined as such. That has nothng to do with talent level. Iggy was asked to do something which he just wasn't able to do.


Both of them have a lot of similarities- they both can jump out of the gym, both very streaky shooters and both are pests with their man defense on the ball.

But Iggy is the 2nd best passing SF in the NBA and can at times lead his team to a victory offensively without even taking 8 shots on offense.


At least Shumpert has time to prove his offensive game. Iggy I think is closing in on 30 already, so I'd assume this is as good as it gets with Andre.

What has Shumpert proven that a young Iggy hasn't?

Do you know that limited offensive Iguodala last season accounted for more points and a greater % of his team's offensive than Luol Deng, Rudy Gay and Danny Granger for their teams? Don't sleep on Iggy's playmaking ability because he's a 3.

Swashcuff
04-24-2012, 04:37 PM
The reason why I rate Deng slightly over Tony Allen is real simple: SIZE. Tony is 6'4, while Deng is 6'10. With his length and quickness, along with the veteran savvy...he is equipped to guard pretty much anyone. His length and activity is a huge reason why the Bulls are the leagues best defensive team.


It's Deng and Allen by a landslide over everyone else.

Sidney Moncrief, Gary Payton, Joe Dumars, Dennis Johnson, Walt Frazier, Jerry Sloan, all were undersized but often guarded 3 positions. Moncrief IMO was actually the best of all time in that regard and he doesn't have the length that most others do.

Allen is a better individual perimeter defender than Deng period. Allen would furstrate the living daylights out of the most elite offensive players making them work harder than they ever have to.

pd7631
04-24-2012, 04:41 PM
dumbass... anyone can find some stat to back up there case... shump always guards the best perimeter player on each team so he's not gonna stop the dwades but his job is to contain them

And who do you think Iggy guards?!? Not only does he guard the opposing team's best perimeter player, he is actually capable of shutting them down....not just containing them.


I'm not a fan of Iggy, I think he's a passive aggressive egomaniac. But I'm not gonna deny the fact that he's a virtuoso defender.

As far as Iggy vs. Allen, I give the edge to Iggy because he not only exerts himself on defense, but he also has a great responsibility to the team offensively...unlike Allen. He also plays 10 more minutes per game, so he has to play harder for longer periods of time. He has a higher D-Rating, D-Win shares, and holds his opponents to the lowest PER in the league.


Iman Shumpert....best on ball defender in the league? That's laughable.

TheNumber37
04-24-2012, 04:47 PM
the 3 best are Tony Allen (highest sp48 in nba history)
Avery Bradley
Shump

the others are good defenders,and get more attention but anyone who watches games can say that these 3 are the best On The Ball.

undermeyou
04-24-2012, 04:48 PM
A lot of knicks fans here.Shumpert got torched many times.He will become an elite defender.However in terms of one on one,i wouldnt even put him in my top 5.Please be reasonable knicks fans

gotoHcarolina52
04-24-2012, 04:50 PM
This is pretty badass

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXz0xAcBTUM

undermeyou
04-24-2012, 04:53 PM
the 3 best are Tony Allen (highest sp48 in nba history)
Avery Bradley
Shump

the others are good defenders,and get more attention but anyone who watches games can say that these 3 are the best On The Ball.


Why are you making up stats.Tony allen doesnt have highest sp48.Actually for this season he is averaging 2.5spg per36.Let me put it this way stockton averaged that for his entire career with a high of 3.4spg per36.Some other players higher than allen Jordan,Magic,Alvin Robertson,Allen iverson,Dudley Bradley,Micheal Ray Richardson et.

CEasFiRe
04-24-2012, 04:55 PM
alot of knick fans voted for shump i can see

97NYer
04-24-2012, 04:56 PM
Shumpert and Tony Allen are 2 guys who are actually entertaining to watch play on ball defense. It's between those 2, Shump was my homer pick though.

Swashcuff
04-24-2012, 04:57 PM
You know what Shumpert reminds me of? Landry Fields. Last seasons for Knicks fans Landry was a top 5 perimeter defender for them (not really guys like Brewer, Allen, Iggy, Wade, Kobe, LeBron, Batum, Gerald Wallace etc etc were all clearly better) and now Melo is an above average defender and Shumpert is the best in the league. I just can't help but smh at you guys.

ChiSox219
04-24-2012, 04:59 PM
Ronnie Brewer is better than some of the poll options, I think he deserves some recognition.

97NYer
04-24-2012, 04:59 PM
And who do you think Iggy guards?!? Not only does he guard the opposing team's best perimeter player, he is actually capable of shutting them down....not just containing them.


I'm not a fan of Iggy, I think he's a passive aggressive egomaniac. But I'm not gonna deny the fact that he's a virtuoso defender.

As far as Iggy vs. Allen, I give the edge to Iggy because he not only exerts himself on defense, but he also has a great responsibility to the team offensively...unlike Allen. He also plays 10 more minutes per game, so he has to play harder for longer periods of time. He has a higher D-Rating, D-Win shares, and holds his opponents to the lowest PER in the league.


Iman Shumpert....best on ball defender in the league? That's laughable.

the only time Shump gets beat off the dribble is when he lets someone go by them to get the right angle to strip their ****. He stripped D Rose 6 times the last time they met. And he can guard the 1-3 with ease, even started on Dirk against the Mavs a while back.

pd7631
04-24-2012, 05:01 PM
the only time Shump gets beat off the dribble is when he lets someone go by them to get the right angle to strip their ****. He stripped D Rose 6 times the last time they met. And he can guard the 1-3 with ease, even started on Dirk against the Mavs a while back.

Whoopti friggin doo, he's still not better than Andre Iguodala.

Swashcuff
04-24-2012, 05:02 PM
the 3 best are Tony Allen (highest sp48 in nba history)

Where do you guys get this stuff from?

Tony Allen last season was 29th all time. So this garbage that you're quoting makes not sense.


Avery Bradley
Shump

the others are good defenders,and get more attention but anyone who watches games can say that these 3 are the best On The Ball.

And anyone who actually has a brain knows that Iggy not being among the top 3 is as ridiculous as it gets.

2-ONE-5
04-24-2012, 05:03 PM
I think you mean kenneth faried.
Look I will not dispute the fact that Shumpert is already really good and has the upside to get there, but this year there are players that are better on ball Defenders.
Look many NY fans tend to overrate their players especially rookies, last year it was landry fields and before that it was Wilson Chandler. Homerism is normal to some extend but it seems to me that the NY fans just go the extra mile.


Still don't understand why Thabo doesn't get any respect the reason the guy is in the league is his defense.



I agree with the bold. When you start over a guy like Harden that says something about you.

Swashcuff
04-24-2012, 05:03 PM
dumbass... anyone can find some stat to back up there case... shump always guards the best perimeter player on each team so he's not gonna stop the dwades but his job is to contain them

These are the kind of idiotic posts that really make me scratch my head.

"anyone can find some stat to back up there case"

At least they are backing their case. What exactly are you doing? Are you backing your case or just stating your opinion without providing any evidence to support what you're say. Oh and I'd love to hear how your case is that you watch Shumpert play, guess what I watch him as well, I've watched Iggy for every season of his career, I've paid great attention to Tony Allen ever since he's been in Memphis, I've been a Deng supporter for quite some while and Ronnie Brewer is a player that I have paid attention to for quite some time.

I watch the game but does what I watch make me more of an expert in the player's D than you? NO. Its the fact that we use stats to at least provide som medium of understanding for players that we don't get to see play every game is how we get a greater appreciation for what a player does on that end of the floor.

Everyone watches the game here.

Facts are however that when Shumpert is on the floor his TEAM is less effecient defensively than when he isn't. That could be because he plays a great deal of his minutes with Amar'e and/or Carmelo it may not. Shumpert just isn't as great defensively as you guys make him out to be but you seem not to be able to understand that. He had a couple great games and you deem him the best.

Swashcuff
04-24-2012, 05:03 PM
Ronnie Brewer is better than some of the poll options, I think he deserves some recognition.

He surely does.

Evolution23
04-24-2012, 05:07 PM
If Shumpert was on the Bobcats he would be a scrub. However he is on the knicks therefore he is the 2nd coming of Michael Jordan.

There it is! I was waiting for that. :rolleyes:

Swashcuff
04-24-2012, 05:09 PM
There it is! I was waiting for that. :rolleyes:

His sarcasm is wayyyyyyyy less worse than the Knicks fans seirously calling Shumpert the best in the league.

jchase3
04-24-2012, 05:10 PM
Kobe is the best defender in the league

bucketss
04-24-2012, 05:20 PM
the only time Shump gets beat off the dribble is when he lets someone go by them to get the right angle to strip their ****. He stripped D Rose 6 times the last time they met. And he can guard the 1-3 with ease, even started on Dirk against the Mavs a while back.

lol you just described the greatest defender this league has seen smh

justinnum1
04-24-2012, 05:21 PM
1_team_1_dream, 97NYer, airronijordan, AndyfromNeptune, Augbro, BigBlueCrew, BklynKnicks3, CEasFiRe, cheetos185, Da Knicks, Eg714, EnWhyKay, Evolution23, GIANTKNICK, IllWill21, jayjay16, jimm120, jmlbnks26, KnickNyKnick, kubernetes, Mayweather&NYK, MELO 15, MELO7NYK/DENfan, NYKnicks, NYKnicks4511, NYY 26 to 7, raiderposting, Rio40, RonE Coleman, rpgmaster86, sharqstealth, silverbrad, Slimsim, Smaxor5, thapastime7, Yankees22, yanksfan14, yanksrock, YashBoone

Anyone in this group not a knicks fan?

Missing56&33
04-24-2012, 05:41 PM
Shump

I want to say Shump but out of respect... for years played in the league, I have to say Lebron. Shump is good but he's out of control a lot and needs to get better.

EnWhyKay
04-24-2012, 07:01 PM
You know what Shumpert reminds me of? Landry Fields. Last seasons for Knicks fans Landry was a top 5 perimeter defender for them (not really guys like Brewer, Allen, Iggy, Wade, Kobe, LeBron, Batum, Gerald Wallace etc etc were all clearly better) and now Melo is an above average defender and Shumpert is the best in the league. I just can't help but smh at you guys.


who said Melo was an above average defender?...

Corey
04-24-2012, 07:08 PM
Watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=D2ZO3-Iq-t4#!

Srs.

knicksfan42
04-24-2012, 07:16 PM
You know what Shumpert reminds me of? Landry Fields. Last seasons for Knicks fans Landry was a top 5 perimeter defender for them (not really guys like Brewer, Allen, Iggy, Wade, Kobe, LeBron, Batum, Gerald Wallace etc etc were all clearly better) and now Melo is an above average defender and Shumpert is the best in the league. I just can't help but smh at you guys.



Let me start off by saying that I never thought Landry was a top 5 perimeter defender (or anything close to it) and I am probably Landry's biggest supporter in the Knicks forum, I actually don't remember anyone calling him a top 5 perimeter defender, even the worst of the worst Knicks fans never said this. I mean did you literally read like one post where some guy said this and now you're just attributing this to all Knicks fans.

Melo has been playing above average defense since Woodson took over as head coach and has played fairly average defense for much of the season.

As for Shumpert, I can't really argue you. He is overrated to the point of ridiculousness, I've heard comparisons to Westbrook and even D Wade at one point. He is a good defender, but at this point he isn't even a top 3 perimeter defender. The thing with Shumpert is he has fit his scouting report to a t. A great athlete and great defender with a low bball IQ, poor play making skills, and poor shot selection/shooting.

knicksfan42
04-24-2012, 07:18 PM
Watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=D2ZO3-Iq-t4#!

Srs.

He has easily played the best perimeter D I've seen anyone play all season.

blastmasta26
04-24-2012, 07:21 PM
You know what Shumpert reminds me of? Landry Fields. Last seasons for Knicks fans Landry was a top 5 perimeter defender for them (not really guys like Brewer, Allen, Iggy, Wade, Kobe, LeBron, Batum, Gerald Wallace etc etc were all clearly better) and now Melo is an above average defender and Shumpert is the best in the league. I just can't help but smh at you guys.

I understand you're venting about Knicks homerism, but I'd like to clarify. Melo is an above average defender in talent level, not in effort level. I don't think that is absurd to say.

And Landry Fields was definitely overhyped if anyone said that about him, I never saw him as a very good defender and he's even been getting benched for losing his man off of screens.

Shumpert may be getting overrated by a similar group of fans, but he has some serious defensive skill. Is he the best defender? No, but he's very talented and has the potential to be a Tony Allen type (hopefully).

I'm a firm believer in stats, but the fact that the Knicks were supposedly worse defensively with Shumpert on the floor doesn't tell the whole story. Tyson has been the main factor in the Knicks' defensive turnaround, but Shump has been crucial as well. Again, I'm not saying he's the best, but this isn't just another example of Knick homerism. He may be getting overrated but he's still legit.

Blitzbolt
04-24-2012, 07:35 PM
On the Iggy vs Allen topic Iggy is more solid and more calm Tony Allen is the crazy type.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bn78lSY7krQ

Here is one of him playing vs Duran who is way taller then him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbOwqN4ajl8

Blitzbolt
04-24-2012, 07:35 PM
Double post

EnWhyKay
04-24-2012, 08:11 PM
Iman Shumpert may very well be the best on ball defender we have in the league today.. As a rookie... - Stephen A. Smith on ESPN 1050

justinnum1
04-24-2012, 08:17 PM
why are you quoting knciks homers?

bucketss
04-24-2012, 08:29 PM
Iman Shumpert may very well be the best on ball defender we have in the league today.. As a rookie... - Stephen A. Smith on ESPN 1050

isnt stephen a the same guy that thinks carmelo is better than lebron?

EnWhyKay
04-24-2012, 08:42 PM
isnt stephen a the same guy that thinks carmelo is better than lebron?

That would be Skip Bayless...

Swashcuff
04-24-2012, 09:05 PM
Let me start off by saying that I never thought Landry was a top 5 perimeter defender (or anything close to it) and I am probably Landry's biggest supporter in the Knicks forum, I actually don't remember anyone calling him a top 5 perimeter defender, even the worst of the worst Knicks fans never said this. I mean did you literally read like one post where some guy said this and now you're just attributing this to all Knicks fans.

Melo has been playing above average defense since Woodson took over as head coach and has played fairly average defense for much of the season.

As for Shumpert, I can't really argue you. He is overrated to the point of ridiculousness, I've heard comparisons to Westbrook and even D Wade at one point. He is a good defender, but at this point he isn't even a top 3 perimeter defender. The thing with Shumpert is he has fit his scouting report to a t. A great athlete and great defender with a low bball IQ, poor play making skills, and poor shot selection/shooting.


I understand you're venting about Knicks homerism, but I'd like to clarify. Melo is an above average defender in talent level, not in effort level. I don't think that is absurd to say.

And Landry Fields was definitely overhyped if anyone said that about him, I never saw him as a very good defender and he's even been getting benched for losing his man off of screens.

Shumpert may be getting overrated by a similar group of fans, but he has some serious defensive skill. Is he the best defender? No, but he's very talented and has the potential to be a Tony Allen type (hopefully).

I'm a firm believer in stats, but the fact that the Knicks were supposedly worse defensively with Shumpert on the floor doesn't tell the whole story. Tyson has been the main factor in the Knicks' defensive turnaround, but Shump has been crucial as well. Again, I'm not saying he's the best, but this isn't just another example of Knick homerism. He may be getting overrated but he's still legit.

Both very very solid posts. You are the kinda guys that bring reason back to Knick threads when the absurd homers send things spiraling downwards. Thank you for your input and I must say I respect your guys' opinion.

No doubt Iman is a serious defensive talent and has the potential to be one of the best if not the best in the league in the not too distant future but as of this season (the entire season) we can't say that he has been better than some of the guys on this list without coming across as being biased because quite frankly its just not true.

As for your quote on Melo's D blastmasta you couldn't be more correct. Melo has the ability to be a solid defensive player in the NBA but until his effort matches his ability for an extended period of time (2 seasons) I would still hold judgement on qualifying Melo as an above average perimeter defender in the NBA.

ohreally
04-24-2012, 09:15 PM
so rose scores 29 points in a loss to the knicks and was shooting 30% coming back from injury... ill give sum credit to shump.. then rose comes back and scores 32 in a win against the knicks.. 29 points and 32 points and now all of a sudden shumpert is the defensive king??

im sorry but for reg season i give it to iggy but for playoffs soon to come i say deng or lebron...

plus the knicks get away with slapping and whackin players like no other in there home... great defense yes but there is alot of plays where they should be getting the foul..

I said this recently about the Knicks. I've been a Knicks fan for many a year, and I've been absolutely astounded that they're always slapping and so rarely getting called for it. That Kind of play has always racked up fouls, and the Knicks have traditionally been called foR more fouls at home than most teams.

an amnesty that allowed the Knicks to go after a third "star", a crazy relatively easy schedule for the greatest part of the year, and favorable treatment from the refs. Think the NBA is saying something here?

gotoHcarolina52
04-24-2012, 09:22 PM
why are you quoting knciks homers?

:laugh: If your argument fails, quote a homer with a radio transmitter!

TheIlladelph16
04-24-2012, 09:33 PM
Iman Shumpert may very well be the best on ball defender we have in the league today.. As a rookie... - Stephen A. Smith on ESPN 1050

Haha come on man. I love Steven A. for the entertainment value and he does make some credible points at times, but the majority of the time he is just a loud-mouthed, tv personality. He is one of the few people who put Skip in his place, but you really can't take anything he says as a solid justification for this debate.

Swashcuff
04-24-2012, 09:38 PM
I wonder if Knicks fans are watching the Celtics v Heat game at the moment. Avery Bradley is like a shark in water smelling blood on every defensive possession.

knicksfan42
04-24-2012, 09:41 PM
I wonder if Knicks fans are watching the Celtics v Heat game at the moment. Avery Bradley is like a shark in water smelling blood on every defensive possession.

That's why I voted for him, I have never seen someone so adept at staying in front of his man.

D-Leethal
04-24-2012, 09:43 PM
For what its worth, Stephen A hates on the Knicks way more than he praises them or any individual on them. Hes been Melo's boy since day 1 so you gotta take what he says there with a grain of salt, but this is the same guy who says Lin is a future bench player so its not like he praises all the Knicks.

Swashcuff
04-24-2012, 09:44 PM
Watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=D2ZO3-Iq-t4#!

Srs.

If pressure D was the discussion there is no one on this planet that would come close to Bradley that guy is just and amazing pressure defender. I'd just like to see him against a wider array of offensive talent on a few more occasions before I call him the best. However I can certainly see why yourself and Hawkeye would argue his case.

D-Leethal
04-24-2012, 09:45 PM
I wonder if Knicks fans are watching the Celtics v Heat game at the moment. Avery Bradley is like a shark in water smelling blood on every defensive possession.

I had to turn it off, it was hard to watch before. Those benches are awful.

But Bradley is nice, I was at MSG the night it rained 3s and I said in Knicks forum that right now he has a leg up on Shump. He was great that night and his shot was money which caught me off guard. Both are premier young defensive guards though so thats fine with me.

Swashcuff
04-24-2012, 09:48 PM
That's why I voted for him, I have never seen someone so adept at staying in front of his man.

Its not only the fact that the he stays in front of his man so well its the constant pressure he displays. The man is a pure defender no doubt about that one.

Swashcuff
04-24-2012, 09:59 PM
well Steve Kerr just called Bradley the best on ball defender in the league right now... lol. I'd take Kerr's opinion over Stephen A's any day of the week. :laugh2:

I still got Iggy because of his overall individual D, versatility and track record.

knicksfan42
04-24-2012, 10:05 PM
Its not only the fact that the he stays in front of his man so well its the constant pressure he displays. The man is a pure defender no doubt about that one.

Yea, but what really separates him from Shumpert is that he never gets crossed, that and he actually goes over screens.

b@llhog24
04-24-2012, 10:17 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5B7V1Gbggw&feature=related
This play was EPIC.

PlayDPlease
04-24-2012, 10:39 PM
LeBron, even if he can't guard Carmelo with a baseball bat in hand.

pd7631
04-24-2012, 10:58 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5B7V1Gbggw&feature=related
This play was EPIC.

Nice play, but it's not on the ball.

Avery Bradley is probably the best pressure defender (I think Swashcuff mentioned this), but he doesn't guard the opposing team's best player ALL GAME LONG like Iggy does. I just can't discount the fact that most of these options play about HALF the game as defensive specialist that can exert more energy due to the fact that they aren't asked to do anything offensively, and don't play nearly as much.

Iggy can shut down elite players, and he is so good at it, that he seemingly does it with minimal effort.

meloman1592
04-24-2012, 11:35 PM
Avery Bradley is the best at sliding his feet and applying pressure....but Shump has more size and doesn't get backed down like Avery (post defense is still on the ball). I've seen Shump stand up Kobe and Wade in the post. Not saying Bradley is a bad post defender for a guard but he's smaller. Both are terrific young defenders and in about 2 years will both be HEAD AND SHOULDERS above Tony Allen and Iggy.

s2kobe
04-24-2012, 11:58 PM
Paul George is also.

WadeKobe
04-25-2012, 05:36 AM
the only time Shump gets beat off the dribble is when he lets someone go by them to get the right angle to strip their ****. He stripped D Rose 6 times the last time they met. And he can guard the 1-3 with ease, even started on Dirk against the Mavs a while back.

It is going to feel soooooo good when Shumpert gets Wade's foot down his throat and coming out his ***.

Shumpert, top5 on-the-ball defender!? :pity:

The stupidity that Knicks fans have displayed in this thread is amazing. Absolutely amazing.

If LeBron played offense like the other guys, he'd be #1 defender. Period.

However, my list goes:

Allen
Iggy/Bron
Bradley
Deng
Thabo
Marion
Wade

Once those guys are out of the way you can START to CONSIDER discussing Shumpert.

undermeyou
04-25-2012, 06:28 AM
It is going to feel soooooo good when Shumpert gets Wade's foot down his throat and coming out his ***.

Shumpert, top5 on-the-ball defender!? :pity:

The stupidity that Knicks fans have displayed in this thread is amazing. Absolutely amazing.

If LeBron played offense like the other guys, he'd be #1 defender. Period.

However, my list goes:

Allen
Iggy/Bron
Bradley
Deng
Thabo
Marion
Wade

Once those guys are out of the way you can START to CONSIDER discussing Shumpert.


Lebron impact on the defensive end is still more than any perimeter player in the league.

I think he is #2 on ball defender just behind Iggy,however i agree with you if he didnt have to score and dish as much as he does,we would probably be calling the the best defender and probably top 3 defender of all time.

thenaj17
04-25-2012, 07:35 AM
Kobe is the best defender in the league

Not even close, i've watched all of the Laker games this season and Kobe has been very average on the defensive end this year. He gets blown by almost as often as Fisher did this year.

thenaj17
04-25-2012, 07:38 AM
It is going to feel soooooo good when Shumpert gets Wade's foot down his throat and coming out his ***.

Shumpert, top5 on-the-ball defender!? :pity:

The stupidity that Knicks fans have displayed in this thread is amazing. Absolutely amazing.

If LeBron played offense like the other guys, he'd be #1 defender. Period.

However, my list goes:

Allen
Iggy/Bron
Bradley
Deng
Thabo
Marion
Wade

Once those guys are out of the way you can START to CONSIDER discussing Shumpert.

Decent list but where is Artest? He may be a nutcase but he's still a GREAT 1 on 1 defender. Just ask any SF in the league that's played him. Durant the league leading scorer would certainly agree.

KnicksPain
04-25-2012, 07:39 AM
Sucks that what should be a very good discussion is being hijacked but regardless I just wanna throw another name that isnt the best but IMO should be getting some recognition. Dante Jones on Indy is a pest, he had more of an impact with more minutes for Denver but he is still a top defender in this league.

bucketss
04-25-2012, 08:30 AM
Avery Bradley is the best at sliding his feet and applying pressure....but Shump has more size and doesn't get backed down like Avery (post defense is still on the ball). I've seen Shump stand up Kobe and Wade in the post. Not saying Bradley is a bad post defender for a guard but he's smaller. Both are terrific young defenders and in about 2 years will both be HEAD AND SHOULDERS above Tony Allen and Iggy.

lol hell no

theheatles
04-25-2012, 08:35 AM
shump is good but this is ridiculous...Iggy, Bron, Tony Allen and a healthy Deng are all clearly better than shumpert

t_money25
04-25-2012, 10:55 AM
To call a rookie elite or the best at anything during a shortened NBA season is homerism at its finest. Shumpert has shown great defender skills but he's only played 57 career games. That's not nearly enough of a sample size to give him such a crown.....prisoners of the moment SMH

Corey
04-25-2012, 11:13 AM
For those picking shumpert:

‎1) Opponents average 0.84 points per possession when guarded by Shumpert...Opponents guarded by Avery Bradley average 0.74 points per possession.

2) Opponents guarded by Shumpert average 40% from the field. Opponents guarded by Avery average 34% from the field.

3) Offensively, Shumpert averages .80 points per possession. Bradley averages .96 points per possession.

4) Shumpert is shooting 39.6% from the field. Avery is shooting 50.5%. Shumpert is shooting 30.7% from 3. Bradley is shooting 45.7% from 3.

gotoHcarolina52
04-25-2012, 11:31 AM
For those picking shumpert:

‎1) Opponents average 0.84 points per possession when guarded by Shumpert...Opponents guarded by Avery Bradley average 0.74 points per possession.

2) Opponents guarded by Shumpert average 40% from the field. Opponents guarded by Avery average 34% from the field.

3) Offensively, Shumpert averages .80 points per possession. Bradley averages .96 points per possession.

4) Shumpert is shooting 39.6% from the field. Avery is shooting 50.5%. Shumpert is shooting 30.7% from 3. Bradley is shooting 45.7% from 3.


5) Shumpert wears blue and orange. Bradley wears green.

5 >>>>> 1-4

Corey
04-25-2012, 12:06 PM
5) Shumpert wears blue and orange. Bradley wears green.

5 >>>>> 1-4

Yea.

I'm not arguing Bradley as the best...simply because he hasn't done it for a long enough period of time, but he's definitely better than Shump at this point.

b@llhog24
04-25-2012, 01:18 PM
Nice play, but it's not on the ball.

Avery Bradley is probably the best pressure defender (I think Swashcuff mentioned this), but he doesn't guard the opposing team's best player ALL GAME LONG like Iggy does. I just can't discount the fact that most of these options play about HALF the game as defensive specialist that can exert more energy due to the fact that they aren't asked to do anything offensively, and don't play nearly as much.

Iggy can shut down elite players, and he is so good at it, that he seemingly does it with minimal effort.
Wasn't so much for making a case of his on ball skills rather than showing how his defensive iq exceeds his age.

b@llhog24
04-25-2012, 01:19 PM
Isn't there a guy on the Warriors who gets alot of praise defensively?

Wrigheyes4MVP
04-25-2012, 02:53 PM
I voted for Tony Allen...the dude plays exceptional D.

Not related to this thread per say, but I used to love Doug Christie as a perimeter defender.

JayW_1023
04-25-2012, 04:05 PM
I miss Bruce Bowen and his corner threes. Who cares if he was dirty. In the eighties and nineties, everyone defended like that.

coryd238
04-25-2012, 04:07 PM
Lebron's the most overrated defender in the league. Putting him over Afflalo, lmfao.

Corey
04-25-2012, 04:14 PM
Lebron's the most overrated defender in the league. Putting him over Afflalo, lmfao.

What's so funny? Care to elaborate?

Overall, Lebron allows .81 points per possession. Afflalo allows 1.0 points per possession.

Lebron allows .56 PPP in Iso situations. Afflalo allows .87.

Lebron allows .68 PPP in P&R situations. Afflalo allows .93.

Lebron allows .90 PPP in post up situatons. Afflalo allows .94.

Opponents guarded by Lebron James shoot 37.8 from the field and 36% from 3pt range.

Opponents guarded by Afflalo shoot 44% from the field and 44.4% from 3pt range.




Please, feel free to prove me wrong. Lebron > Afflalo defensively.

Swashcuff
04-25-2012, 04:17 PM
I miss Bruce Bowen and his corner threes. Who cares if he was dirty. In the eighties and nineties, everyone defended like that.

I don't care how dirty he was either (once he wasn't malicious) he was an exceptional defender and the type of player that every team could use.

justinnum1
04-25-2012, 04:18 PM
Lebron's the most overrated defender in the league. Putting him over Afflalo, lmfao.


What's so funny? Care to elaborate?

Overall, Lebron allows .81 points per possession. Afflalo allows 1.0 points per possession.

Lebron allows .56 PPP in Iso situations. Afflalo allows .87.

Lebron allows .68 PPP in P&R situations. Afflalo allows .93.

Lebron allows .90 PPP in post up situatons. Afflalo allows .94.

Opponents guarded by Lebron James shoot 37.8 from the field and 36% from 3pt range.

Opponents guarded by Afflalo shoot 44% from the field and 44.4% from 3pt range.




Please, feel free to prove me wrong. Lebron > Afflalo defensively.

:burn:

Swashcuff
04-25-2012, 04:21 PM
Lebron's the most overrated defender in the league. Putting him over Afflalo, lmfao.

Dude your homer is shining. Afflalo hasn't shown LeBron's level of consistency on the defensive end of the floor. As a matter of a fact he hasn't shown any improvement in that area this season to warrant him being considered among the best. Corey already posted all the evidence we need in this discussion but to actually laugh at people putting LeBron over Afflalo is comedic in its own right. LeBron is in running for DPOY and deservingly so.

Reyes6
04-25-2012, 04:33 PM
What's so funny? Care to elaborate?

Overall, Lebron allows .81 points per possession. Afflalo allows 1.0 points per possession.

Lebron allows .56 PPP in Iso situations. Afflalo allows .87.

Lebron allows .68 PPP in P&R situations. Afflalo allows .93.

Lebron allows .90 PPP in post up situatons. Afflalo allows .94.

Opponents guarded by Lebron James shoot 37.8 from the field and 36% from 3pt range.

Opponents guarded by Afflalo shoot 44% from the field and 44.4% from 3pt range.




Please, feel free to prove me wrong. Lebron > Afflalo defensively.


Depends on who they are guarding on any given night, but LeBron has been a great defender and help defender for a while. I'm not sure how much those stats are affected by the position they play, but LeBron does defend a lot of different players, often the best players on opposing teams.

Corey
04-25-2012, 07:55 PM
:burn:

:bow: