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View Full Version : If CHI doesn't make it to finals, should Rose get same criticism as 09/10 LeBron?



KB-Pau-DH2012
04-19-2012, 05:03 PM
In 2009 & 2010 LeBron James was the league's MVP and led the Cavs to the best record in the entire NBA both years. However, he couldn't lead the Cavs to the finals either yr. In 2009, they had HCA but lost to Orlando in the ECF. In 2010, they had HCA but lost to Boston in the Semis.

LeBron was criticized for not getting the job done despite having HCA for 2 straight postseasons and couldn't even get out of his own conference.

In 2011, Derrick Rose was the league's MVP and led the Bulls to the best record in the NBA. With HCA, the Bulls lost to Miami in the ECF.

In 2012, D.Rose may not be the league's MVP, but his Bulls once again most likely will have the best record in the league. If the Bulls don't make it to the Finals again this yr, should D.Rose get the same criticism as LeBron if he too were not able to get the job done despite having HCA for 2 straight postseasons and not getting out of his own conference?


I think fair is fair. If LeBron was criticized for those 2 yrs, and if Rose can't get out of the East this yr, he should receive the same amount and type of criticism. There is something to be said of having the best record in the league for 1 yr (much less 2) and not even getting out of your own conference.

Blitzbolt
04-19-2012, 05:07 PM
No because he is not the best player in the NBA and not even top 5.

Lebron is in another Level Rose will never reach.

KB-Pau-DH2012
04-19-2012, 05:08 PM
No because he is not the best player in NBA and not even top 5.

He's not best player, but you can't tell me a guy 1 yr removed from being the youngest MVP in league history isn't top 5. Just because of injury issues this season, you can't just devalue him like that.

Blitzbolt
04-19-2012, 05:11 PM
He's not best player, but you can't tell me a guy 1 yr removed from being the youngest MVP in league history isn't top 5. Just because of injury issues this season, you can't just devalue him like that.

I have him as my 6 best this year and because of the injurys.

Max.This
04-19-2012, 05:14 PM
Look regardless of whether or not it is fair to judge performances, the non heat fans are going to hate on lebron's. In this case , unless Derrick Rose wins mvp in the finals and makes all clutch shots , he will be deemed as a failure, overrated or whatnot by non bulls fans.

YEDN90
04-19-2012, 05:17 PM
A) Fairly certain LeBron didn't lose to a "super team" favored to win the next 7 championships while he was with Cleveland.

B) Rose is not as good as Lebron.

C) How about we just see what happens this year first?

It'sMyTime
04-19-2012, 05:18 PM
Another factor to put in is the competition they each had to go through, not saying it was/will be easy for either team...

AceMan
04-19-2012, 05:18 PM
LeBron is held to a higher standard than every player in the league. Not just because he's better than them, but because he's supposed to be better then them. He's been hyped as the next Jordan since he was in high school. Anything less is a failure. It's ok when Derrick Rose loses to LeBron because he doesn't have anything close to the physical gifts LeBron has, just like every other player in the league. I'm not saying it's fair, but it's how the system works. We don't criticize LeBron because he fails. We criticize LeBron because he fails when he should succeed. Derrick Rose is the absolute best player he can possibly be given his physical abilities. LeBron is not. He leaves something on the table, which is a shame consider just how good he could be. I think that's why we criticize him so much.

MagicBucsSox
04-19-2012, 05:19 PM
You can't talk about Derrick rose. They Chicago moderator will give u infractions

29$JerZ
04-19-2012, 05:20 PM
For a MVP he should be critized as much as others are(Nash and his post season short comings, LeBron, Dirk until he won a ring, etc)

smiddy012
04-19-2012, 05:20 PM
Don't take Blitzbolt seriously, to put it nicely he doesn't know **** from shinola.

Back on topic, if Rose didn't have to deal with the 3-headed monster known as Miami, I'd agree with the OP. Also as great as I think Rose is, he surely isn't as dominating as Cleveland's Lebron was. If we're talking 4th quarter only the two players are comparable but in all other regards Rose isn't really comparable to Lebron. He doesn't have the expectations that Lebron had (and still has) either, he's the underdog.

uptown0364
04-19-2012, 05:21 PM
No because Lebron's new team is the favorite to win it all.

bbcmillionaire
04-19-2012, 05:22 PM
Lol hey isnt the same guy wHo just made the thread bashing rose about his complaining of fouls. I thought you said in that same thread that you usually support rose?

Anyways I don't think so, because of all injuries this year. Rose never insinuated he was going to win not 1 not 2.....

Gators123
04-19-2012, 05:22 PM
In 2009 & 2010 LeBron James was the league's MVP and led the Cavs to the best record in the entire NBA both years. However, he couldn't lead the Cavs to the finals either yr. In 2009, they had HCA but lost to Orlando in the ECF. In 2010, they had HCA but lost to Boston in the Semis.

LeBron was criticized for not getting the job done despite having HCA for 2 straight postseasons and couldn't even get out of his own conference.

In 2011, Derrick Rose was the league's MVP and led the Bulls to the best record in the NBA. With HCA, the Bulls lost to Miami in the ECF.

In 2012, D.Rose may not be the league's MVP, but his Bulls once again most likely will have the best record in the league. If the Bulls don't make it to the Finals again this yr, should D.Rose get the same criticism as LeBron if he too were not able to get the job done despite having HCA for 2 straight postseasons and not getting out of his own conference?


I think fair is fair. If LeBron was criticized for those 2 yrs, and if Rose can't get out of the East this yr, he should receive the same amount and type of criticism. There is something to be said of having the best record in the league for 1 yr (much less 2) and not even getting out of your own conference.

I wonder what JB thinks of that? lol

momanpr100
04-19-2012, 05:23 PM
it doesnt matter. he's his harshest critic. he blamed the series against the heat on himself. so it dont even matter wat other people say. you already got skip getting on him and thats what basically everyone watches.

JC_
04-19-2012, 05:23 PM
A) Fairly certain LeBron didn't lose to a "super team" favored to win the next 7 championships while he was with Cleveland.



lol How are they favored to win the next 7 championships? IMO if any team is favored to win that much at this point, it's the Bulls or OKC depending on how they play in the playoffs.

Either way, you can criticize a guy as much as you want but their respective teams need to step up in a big way at crucial times for them to win anything.

KB-Pau-DH2012
04-19-2012, 05:25 PM
No because Lebron's new team is the favorite to win it all.

You're telling me that the Lakers weren't the favorite to win the title in 2009 after being decimated in the 08 Finals by Boston? Remember, that 09 Lakers team (65-17) finished only one game behind the Cavs (66-16), but LA won both contests in the regular season by double digits. In fact, they ended the Cavs home winning streak of 20 something odd games and gave the Cavs their only real home loss of the season that yr (the last loss of the regular season at home to Philly didn't count because that was the only game LeBron sat out).


And you can make an argument that after winning the 09 title, the Lakers (by replacing Ariza with Artest/MWP) were the favorites to win the 2010 title as well.

YEDN90
04-19-2012, 05:26 PM
lol How are they favored to win the next 7 championships? IMO if any team is favored to win that much at this point, it's the Bulls or OKC depending on how they play in the playoffs.

Either way, you can criticize a guy as much as you want but their respective teams need to step up in a big way at crucial times for them to win anything.

Exaggeration.

Point was LeBron never had to go up against a team that had a three headed monster and was heavily favored for multiple years.

JC_
04-19-2012, 05:27 PM
Exaggeration.

Point was LeBron never had to go up against a team that had a three headed monster and was heavily favored for multiple years.

Celtics?

KB-Pau-DH2012
04-19-2012, 05:28 PM
I wonder what JB thinks of that? lol

JordansBulls may hate LeBron, but he's not totally blind. He's in my estimation a very knowledgeable poster. He's smart, he would understand where I'm coming from.

justinnum1
04-19-2012, 05:28 PM
No because he is not the best player in the NBA and not even top 5.

Lebron is in another Level Rose will never reach.
Well said.

Blitzbolt
04-19-2012, 05:29 PM
Exaggeration.

Point was LeBron never had to go up against a team that had a three headed monster and was heavily favored for multiple years.

Kobe/Lakers celtics?

KB-Pau-DH2012
04-19-2012, 05:29 PM
Celtics?

Exactly, and in fact, in his career, he's fallen prey to them twice. 2008 Semis as the underdog (took the C's to 7 games) and 2010 Semis as the faves.

smiddy012
04-19-2012, 05:30 PM
You're telling me that the Lakers weren't the favorite to win the title in 2009 after being decimated in the 08 Finals by Boston? Remember, that 09 Lakers team (65-17) finished only one game behind the Cavs (66-16), but LA won both contests in the regular season by double digits. In fact, they ended the Cavs home winning streak of 20 something odd games and gave the Cavs their only real home loss of the season that yr (the last loss of the regular season at home to Philly didn't count because that was the only game LeBron sat out).


And you can make an argument that after winning the 09 title, the Lakers (by replacing Ariza with Artest/MWP) were the favorites to win the 2010 title as well.

lol What do the lakers have to do with this??? Really, I'd like for you to spell out why you went on this rant about a team not including DRose or Lebron.

All he was saying was that Lebron's Cavs were often the favorite to come out of the East. Whereas DRose's Bulls aren't.

SaimuKala
04-19-2012, 05:31 PM
No because

1) Miami is the favorite to win the east IMO

2) Chicago didn't promise multiple championships

3) He's not as good as LeBron is

TheRunKiller
04-19-2012, 05:31 PM
No because he is not the best player in the NBA and not even top 5.

Lebron is in another Level Rose will never reach.

How the **** do you know?

PurpleJesus
04-19-2012, 05:32 PM
Lebron is clearly the best player in the league...

but when you self proclaim yourself as the King, and the Chosen One, you are going to get a lot of criticism. Lebron has made plenty of moves to bring the criticism and hate upon himself...Rose has not.

beasted86
04-19-2012, 05:33 PM
I don't really have an opinion on this, but it's always funny to hear the backwards asinine logic in these threads based on contradictions from posters in another thread.

Like a poster will say in one thread the Bulls are better than the HEAT have a more depth, better defense and coaching, and will knock the HEAT out of the playoffs. Then in another thread say Miami is a superteam and if the Bulls lose it was expected.

I wonder if posters like those expect their comments on this forum to be taken seriously or if they just spend 24/7 trolling.

But anyhow, throwing in my 2 cents, ESPN and Nike made LeBron the most hyped player in the NBA for several years.

KB-Pau-DH2012
04-19-2012, 05:34 PM
lol What do the lakers have to do with this??? Really, I'd like for you to spell out why you went on this rant about a team not including DRose or Lebron.

All he was saying was that Lebron's Cavs were often the favorite to come out of the East.

I was "ranting" because he's basically saying that Cavs were expected to win it all that time around but Rose and his Bulls aren't expected to win it all this yr (it's Miami). So by making that statement that Heat expected to win it all, he's excusing Rose if he doesn't win it all.


It's kind of the way I interpreted it. Didn't mean to rant about the Lakers.

bucketss
04-19-2012, 05:35 PM
A) Fairly certain LeBron didn't lose to a "super team" favored to win the next 7 championships while he was with Cleveland.

B) Rose is not as good as Lebron.

C) How about we just see what happens this year first?

what are the celtics?

Vincent
04-19-2012, 05:36 PM
In 2009 & 2010 LeBron James was the league's MVP and led the Cavs to the best record in the entire NBA both years. However, he couldn't lead the Cavs to the finals either yr. In 2009, they had HCA but lost to Orlando in the ECF. In 2010, they had HCA but lost to Boston in the Semis.

LeBron was criticized for not getting the job done despite having HCA for 2 straight postseasons and couldn't even get out of his own conference.

In 2011, Derrick Rose was the league's MVP and led the Bulls to the best record in the NBA. With HCA, the Bulls lost to Miami in the ECF.

In 2012, D.Rose may not be the league's MVP, but his Bulls once again most likely will have the best record in the league. If the Bulls don't make it to the Finals again this yr, should D.Rose get the same criticism as LeBron if he too were not able to get the job done despite having HCA for 2 straight postseasons and not getting out of his own conference?


I think fair is fair. If LeBron was criticized for those 2 yrs, and if Rose can't get out of the East this yr, he should receive the same amount and type of criticism. There is something to be said of having the best record in the league for 1 yr (much less 2) and not even getting out of your own conference.

I think you can throw this season out, seeing how Rose basically is limping into the playoffs.

HesterTrain
04-19-2012, 05:37 PM
I wish I could glance at the NBA forum and not see 10 threads involving the name Lebron.

Vincent
04-19-2012, 05:38 PM
I don't really have an opinion on this, but it's always funny to hear the backwards asinine logic in these threads based on contradictions from posters in another thread.

Like a poster will say in one thread the Bulls are better than the HEAT have a more depth, better defense and coaching, and will knock the HEAT out of the playoffs. Then in another thread say Miami is a superteam and if the Bulls lose it was expected.

I wonder if posters like those expect their comments on this forum to be taken seriously or if they just spend 24/7 trolling.

But anyhow, throwing in my 2 cents, ESPN and Nike made LeBron the most hyped player in the NBA for several years.

Miami is clearly in a better position going into the playoff right now than Chicago. I think most Bulls fans would agree with that.

MJ-BULLS
04-19-2012, 05:39 PM
We have the best record this year again, but, its because our team is so strongly built. Rose has been injured the whole season, how can you compare the seasons.

smiddy012
04-19-2012, 05:42 PM
I was "ranting" because he's basically saying that Cavs were expected to win it all that time around but Rose and his Bulls aren't expected to win it all this yr (it's Miami). So by making that statement that Heat expected to win it all, he's excusing Rose if he doesn't win it all.


It's kind of the way I interpreted it. Didn't mean to rant about the Lakers.

Not so much excusing but rationalizing why Rose wouldn't/shouldn't get criticized like Lebron did if he weren't to get to the finals. Lebron like Rose also was MVP but the difference is that his team was more heavily favored, the greater the expectations the greater the critiques when failure hits. Yes Rose will deserve some criticism, especially IF he isn't clutch and blows it for his team.

YEDN90
04-19-2012, 05:44 PM
Celtics?


Kobe/Lakers celtics?


what are the celtics?

Don't agree with the Lakers being a 3 headed monster.

As for the Celtics they were a great team, no question. I don't recall them having two top 5 players and a great player (arguable top 15?) all on the same team.

Celtics had their share of good/great players, but I don't think the teams are comparable, IMO.

smiddy012
04-19-2012, 05:45 PM
I don't really have an opinion on this, but it's always funny to hear the backwards asinine logic in these threads based on contradictions from posters in another thread.

Like a poster will say in one thread the Bulls are better than the HEAT have a more depth, better defense and coaching, and will knock the HEAT out of the playoffs. Then in another thread say Miami is a superteam and if the Bulls lose it was expected.

I wonder if posters like those expect their comments on this forum to be taken seriously or if they just spend 24/7 trolling.

But anyhow, throwing in my 2 cents, ESPN and Nike made LeBron the most hyped player in the NBA for several years.

Yeah I wish I knew which specific posters you were talking about. Thing is there are so many Bulls fans that our fanbase continually contradicts itself. Goes with pretty much all fanbases, we are just so numerous it is more noticeable.

KB-Pau-DH2012
04-19-2012, 05:46 PM
Not so much excusing but rationalizing why Rose wouldn't/shouldn't get criticized like Lebron did if he weren't to get to the finals. Lebron like Rose also was MVP but the difference is that his team was more heavily favored, the greater the expectations the greater the critiques when failure hits. Yes Rose will deserve some criticism, especially IF he isn't clutch and blows it for his team.

Then I also think the question comes into play of whether or not best record in the league and having HCA throughout is really all that.

The only NBA Champions post-Jordan era that had the best record in the league and HCA throughout the playoffs were the 1999 Spurs, 2000 Lakers and 2008 Celtics.

blastmasta26
04-19-2012, 05:46 PM
I never criticized LeBron for postseason shortcomings, because it was evident that his supporting cast was inferior. The second best Cav was Mo Williams, and he was a perennial playoff disappointment. LeBron disappointed in the Finals last year, but any shortcomings before that shouldn't really be blamed on him.

Rose has a Bulls squad that's better than any of LeBron's Cavs teams, but he is not better than LeBron himself. So it's foolish to blindly bash Rose if the Bulls were unable to make it to the Finals unless you look at the circumstances. If Rose performs well, he should not be criticized, but if he struggles, he should be. That's all it really comes down to, because winning in the postseason is dependent on team success.

Very rarely do you see an individual player single-handedly defeating superior teams in the postseason.

KB-Pau-DH2012
04-19-2012, 05:48 PM
I never criticized LeBron for postseason shortcomings, because it was evident that his supporting cast was inferior. The second best Cav was Mo Williams, and he was a perennial playoff disappointment.

Mo Williams was with the Bucks prior to going to Cleveland. He didn't have much postseason experience if memory serves me correct. So it's not accurate to call Mo Williams a perennial playoff disappointment.

blastmasta26
04-19-2012, 05:52 PM
Mo Williams was with the Bucks prior to going to Cleveland. He didn't have much postseason experience if memory serves me correct. So it's not accurate to call Mo Williams a perennial playoff disappointment.
Well the point is, he underperformed in the playoffs.

JordansBulls
04-19-2012, 05:55 PM
Celtics?

The year the Celtics upset the Cavs the Celtics did not have 1 player on the any of the all nba teams.

Donuts365
04-19-2012, 05:56 PM
lmaooo at answers d rose has to go through lebron wade bosh to get to the finals so no and everybody since your comparing rose to lebron to make a point think about this if lebron stayed in cleaveland would he be able to get pass these teams to win a chip?

Donuts365
04-19-2012, 05:57 PM
how did this turn into a lebron discussion

MTL_123
04-19-2012, 05:59 PM
Yes he should but he won't. Btw for the people that keep saying rose never said he will win multiple championship well your wrong him n boozer both said they know they can win multiple championships

KB-Pau-DH2012
04-19-2012, 05:59 PM
The year the Celtics upset the Cavs the Celtics did not have 1 player on the any of the all nba teams.

But that Celtics team was still apparently good enough where they beat Orlando in the ECF despite not having HCA and taking a 3-2 lead on a defending Laker champion team again without having HCA before eventually falling in the 7th game on the road.

bucketss
04-19-2012, 05:59 PM
Well the point is, he underperformed in the playoffs.

lol is your signature real did someone actually say that?

Ladies Man
04-19-2012, 06:00 PM
No I don't think so. Hes been battling nasty injuries all year

KB-Pau-DH2012
04-19-2012, 06:00 PM
how did this turn into a lebron discussion

Not sure, maybe if you read the title of my thread, you'll understand why. :laugh2:

blastmasta26
04-19-2012, 06:01 PM
lol is your signature real did someone actually say that?
Yeah lol, the guy even told me to put it in my sig so he could talk to me after the Finals.

JC_
04-19-2012, 06:04 PM
The year the Celtics upset the Cavs the Celtics did not have 1 player on the any of the all nba teams.

Even if that is true, what does that have to do with anything?

Baller1
04-19-2012, 06:05 PM
It would actually be worse than Lebron's shortcomings in a way, considering Chicago's roster is a million times better than the roster Lebron was working with.

KB-Pau-DH2012
04-19-2012, 06:05 PM
Even if that is true, what does that have to do with anything?

He's trying to defend the case that Cavs got ousted by a team that had zero NBA all teamers while the Bulls (if they get ousted again) will be at the hands of 3 NBA all teamers. BUt his logic is flawed, and I already refuted his argument on that.

smith&wesson
04-19-2012, 06:13 PM
he's not best player, but you can't tell me a guy 1 yr removed from being the youngest mvp in league history isn't top 5. Just because of injury issues this season, you can't just devalue him like that.

+1

Holydiver
04-19-2012, 06:16 PM
with a 1/4 billion contract and 95 million salary, he should yes

smith&wesson
04-19-2012, 06:18 PM
It would actually be worse than Lebron's shortcomings in a way, considering Chicago's roster is a million times better than the roster Lebron was working with.

+1

also lebron did take his team to the finals with less talent.

Pierzynski4Prez
04-19-2012, 06:18 PM
I never criticized LeBron for postseason shortcomings, because it was evident that his supporting cast was inferior. The second best Cav was Mo Williams, and he was a perennial playoff disappointment. LeBron disappointed in the Finals last year, but any shortcomings before that shouldn't really be blamed on him.

Rose has a Bulls squad that's better than any of LeBron's Cavs teams, but he is not better than LeBron himself. So it's foolish to blindly bash Rose if the Bulls were unable to make it to the Finals unless you look at the circumstances. If Rose performs well, he should not be criticized, but if he struggles, he should be. That's all it really comes down to, because winning in the postseason is dependent on team success.

Very rarely do you see an individual player single-handedly defeating superior teams in the postseason.


Mo Williams was with the Bucks prior to going to Cleveland. He didn't have much postseason experience if memory serves me correct. So it's not accurate to call Mo Williams a perennial playoff disappointment.

You should respond to the rest of his post where he basically debunks your whole OP and not avoid everything but the part about Mo Williams playoff history.

smiddy012
04-19-2012, 06:19 PM
Yes he should but he won't. Btw for the people that keep saying rose never said he will win multiple championship well your wrong him n boozer both said they know they can win multiple championships

So people should have the same expectations for Rose as they did for Lebron when he was a Cav? Were you even into the NBA when Lebron was in Cleveland or did you just purport that Rose is on the same level as Lebron?

raiderfaninTX
04-19-2012, 06:22 PM
So let me get this right

players to bash for their team not winning

Howard ... Check
Melo...... Check
Kobe..... Check
Lebron...... Check
Dirk..... Check

Rose...... Nope

Guess we know where rose ranks among bulls fans.

KB-Pau-DH2012
04-19-2012, 06:23 PM
You should respond to the rest of his post where he basically debunks your whole OP and not avoid everything but the part about Mo Williams playoff history.

I was correcting him on the Mo Williams thing, that's all. The rest of his post something that others have said as well. Just trying to get more responses from others to see if they too have the same view as him.

Shammyguy3
04-19-2012, 06:25 PM
For a MVP he should be critized as much as others are(Nash and his post season short comings, LeBron, Dirk until he won a ring, etc)

What shortcomings are those exactly?

Becks2307
04-19-2012, 06:26 PM
lebron is better than rose will probably ever be, its not roses fault, he is just that good. Had rose been far and away the best player then he would get the same criticism lebron got

Vincent
04-19-2012, 06:28 PM
So let me get this right

players to bash for their team not winning

Howard ... Check
Melo...... Check
Kobe..... Check
Lebron...... Check
Dirk..... Check

Rose...... Nope

Guess we know where rose ranks among bulls fans.

This doesn't have much logic to it. Most of those guys don't get bashed for not winning outside of LeBron and Dirk.

championships
04-19-2012, 06:29 PM
No because Rose has never claimed to be the best or the "chosen one"

Rose doesn't even like the fame, he just wants to play.

When you make claims as Lebron does, you better win.

raiderfaninTX
04-19-2012, 06:30 PM
This doesn't have much logic to it. Most of those guys don't get bashed for not winning outside of LeBron and Dirk.

you cannot be serious

GTFO

KB-Pau-DH2012
04-19-2012, 06:31 PM
What shortcomings are those exactly?

Best record in the West in 2005 and losing basically in a 5-game sweep to the Spurs in the WCF.


2006 he could be pardoned because even though suns lost to mavs in wcf despite having HCA, they didn't have STAT that year.

Revolu7i9n
04-19-2012, 06:35 PM
Derrick Rose, no matter what any Chicago Bulls player tells you, cannot affect a game in the way that LeBron can. In addition, Rose didn't even play for a large portion of this season.

LeBron is SUPPOSED to be the BEST player this league has seen since MJ. When you're mentioned in the same sentence as MJ, you should be winning championships... like Kobe.

smiddy012
04-19-2012, 06:38 PM
+1

also lebron did take his team to the finals with less talent.

against a MUCH weaker division. not trying to take away from Lebron, just saying Rose's competition is better.

northsider
04-19-2012, 06:42 PM
No cause as long as Lebron isn't winning a championship he will be the guy getting the criticism. He is the best player in the league and has been in the league longer. People aren't waiting for Rose to get his ring cause he had just broken into the league however people are still waiting for Lebron's championship.

It may not be fair but, that is what comes when you are called the "King" and "the chosen one". To be the best you have to do what the best before you have done. Until he does so the attention will be on him.

This really wasn't a hard question to answer. I mean Lebron so far is one of the best players to ever play so until he wins one that will be the topic of debate.

smiddy012
04-19-2012, 06:43 PM
Derrick Rose, no matter what any Chicago Bulls player tells you, cannot affect a game in the way that LeBron can. In addition, Rose didn't even play for a large portion of this season.

LeBron is SUPPOSED to be the BEST player this league has seen since MJ. When you're mentioned in the same sentence as MJ, you should be winning championships... like Kobe.

Agreed, although I do believe Rose has proven himself to be one of the best finishers, aka 4th quarter players in the game. Lebron is the most complete and well-rounded player since MJ imo. I can't wait for the ECF to start... it should be quite the battle if both teams are healthy.

Shammyguy3
04-19-2012, 06:44 PM
Best record in the West in 2005 and losing basically in a 5-game sweep to the Spurs in the WCF.


2006 he could be pardoned because even though suns lost to mavs in wcf despite having HCA, they didn't have STAT that year.

2004/2005 regular season, Nash averaged 15.5ppg/11.5apg/3.3rpg/3.3tov on .606ts% and a .557efg%
In the 2005 playoffs, Nash averaged 23.9ppg/11.3apg/4.8rpg/4.7tov on a .604ts% and a .559efg%

Nash performed better in the playoffs that year than the regular season.

Nash's team had the 17th best defense in the league that year by DRtg. It wasn't Nash's fault they lost, they just got beaten by a better Spurs team who had the BEST defense in the league that year with the 8th best offense all with Duncan missing 16 games. That's why the Spurs weren't the 1st seed, and also why the Spurs beat the Suns that season.

YankFan2013
04-19-2012, 06:45 PM
I don't like Rose but I wouldn't really criticize him for this season.. He was hurt for quite a bit of it but like I said, I don't like him anyway so.. I don't know I guess

ThePooH_1_
04-19-2012, 06:59 PM
lol.. How long does Lebron play now in this league and he is still ringless.. Lebron is overall a better player theres no doubt, but hes in this league for 8 Years now and won nothing.

Rose is in his 3rd year.. Critcize him in about 5 years if he's ringless and let down his team in the Finals and choked in the 4th quarter.

DragonJaii
04-19-2012, 07:03 PM
still early for rose

justinnum1
04-19-2012, 07:04 PM
still early for rose

Yep

Unrequited
04-19-2012, 07:25 PM
Derrick Rose doesn't have super friends, lol

LGhost
04-19-2012, 07:56 PM
Dunno if this has been pointed out but watching the Bulls game yesterday, the announcers pointed out that NO team has made it past the first round the following year after one of their players won MVP...

quade36
04-19-2012, 08:10 PM
So the silliness of this thread is that you can't use the example of comparing last years to this years Bulls. Rose has missed 25 games and might miss the next 4. Therefore he has almost missed half the season. If Lebron missed half a season there is no way the Cavs dominate. That being said, if Lebron missed half a season with the Heat they probably are battling for the 4th seed.

effen5
04-19-2012, 08:39 PM
op is a rose basher and he touches little boys at night

come at me brah

mdm692
04-19-2012, 08:51 PM
A) Fairly certain LeBron didn't lose to a "super team" favored to win the next 7 championships while he was with Cleveland.

B) Rose is not as good as Lebron.

C) How about we just see what happens this year first?

this.

Mr Costanza
04-19-2012, 09:00 PM
Does the OP have a quota to meet or something? This is just gibberish and makes me think it was started out of boredom or made to pad his post count.

IversonIsKrazy
04-19-2012, 09:15 PM
Rose is what 4th year into his career? LeBron didn't start getting heavily criticized until the loss to Orlando backin 2009, 6 years into his career. Cleveland seemed to be the better team. This year, Rose is 4th year and injury ridded, there is no favor between Chicago and Miami considering there kind of the same team as last year and Miami won 4-1. Rose doesn't deserve the same criticism because of the competition level, and he is in an earlier stage in his career.

rapjuicer06
04-19-2012, 09:23 PM
I think it's fair to say that Rose is no where near Lebron was, so the criticism shouldn't be there for Rose. But if the Bulls lose, it should directly reflect the Bulls and they should be criticized. People say outside of Rose they don't have any superstars, and that may be true. But they have 2 top 10 players at their position in Boozer and Deng with Noah more than likely a top 10 himself. They also have the best bench in the league as well. Rose is icing on the top of a cake for this team...And the way this team is built, they don't need Rose. They have a lot of weapons and IMO Rose holds them back. He doesn't spread the ball around enough and is too worried about getting his, his teammates get cold, and when they are needed, they can't do anything. The Bulls have a tremendously amazing rounded team. Defenders in the paint in Noah and Asik. A shooter at PF and another defender at PF in Boozer and Taj. Sharp shooter in Korver and a damn good defender in Deng who can score. A shooter in Rip who hasn't played much this year, but still a shooter and another damn good defender in Brewer. This just leads to me saying...Rose is overrated, and this year clearly showed that

KB-Pau-DH2012
04-19-2012, 09:28 PM
Does the OP have a quota to meet or something? This is just gibberish and makes me think it was started out of boredom or made to pad his post count.

Mostly to pad my post count, because we all know how you get a prize from the PSD Commissioner after 5,033 posts after just 4 months. It's been my personal agenda since December 2011.

naps
04-19-2012, 09:30 PM
YES and NO.

YES because they should win it all since they have the most balanced and perfect team.

NO because he's not as good as LeBron. He's not the best player in the league unlike LeBron.

basketfan4life
04-20-2012, 09:59 AM
i still can't believe how the most physically gifted athlete and the best player in the game teams up with the second best player in the game along with a top 15 player.

Who gives a damn if rose can't make it to the finals, he isn't supposed to make it. So no he should not. By the way if LBJ can't win it all this year, the hell better break lose on him.

Audubon
04-20-2012, 10:08 AM
Lol um....no. First of all, he earned his way up the food chain where as Lebron was the "Chosen One". He doesnt' dance and act a fool, which Lebron does. He doesn't try to show up his opposition, which Lebron does. He hasn't made bold claims only to fail. Rose goes about his business, where as Lebron acts like he was going to change the NBA and he hasn't. Not even close.

Heater4life
04-20-2012, 10:32 AM
Lebron James is a villian now. No chance. / thread

Chronz
04-20-2012, 10:36 AM
i still can't believe how the most physically gifted athlete and the best player in the game teams up with the second best player in the game along with a top 15 player.
Its understandable when you realize that he made ******* into a contender for years. He deserves to try and build a winner himself. Imagine how unfair it would be if he joined Chicago



Who gives a damn if rose can't make it to the finals, he isn't supposed to make it. So no he should not. By the way if LBJ can't win it all this year, the hell better break lose on him.

Why? Hes 27, this aint a do or die year for him. And Rose wont get the same criticism because hes not seen in that same light of greatness, in reality he has a contending team around him, better than what Bron has to work with, its up to him to lead them there.

Southsideheat
04-20-2012, 10:37 AM
So let me get this right

players to bash for their team not winning

Howard ... Check
Melo...... Check
Kobe..... Check
Lebron...... Check
Dirk..... Check

Rose...... Nope

Guess we know where rose ranks among bulls fans.

Rose is 6-3, he has limitations other superstars don't.

PlayDPlease
04-20-2012, 10:39 AM
When he starts calling himself in third person "King Derrick (James)" then he should be bashed.

Till then LeBron should be mercilessly ripped apart till he retires (very rich).

blystr2002
04-20-2012, 10:53 AM
1. Lebron brings more criticism because of his arrogance and stupid decisions.
2. Lebron has the stigma of not playing his best games in crucial situations, whether that is true or not it is hanging over him.
3. D. Rose isn't healthy this year.
4. D. Rose lost to the heat who have 2 of the top 5 or 6 players in the league and Bosh who is probably 10-15. The Heat are still the favorites not the Bulls.
5. Rose comes off as humble and a worker, which gets him a little time. He was only in his 3rd yr. last yr. Lebron was in like his 7th when he lost.

effen5
04-20-2012, 10:57 AM
Not sure why rose would get criticized when he's going against two of the top 5 players in the nba, it's really the other way around, if heat loses to the bulls, wade and bron will get bashed

effen5
04-20-2012, 10:59 AM
Btw op makes the worst threads in the nba forum

smood999
04-20-2012, 11:10 AM
no, lebron didnt have to go against a super team and chicago can keep finishing number one but alot of ppl still feel that they r not the best team in the east let alone the league

mRc08
04-20-2012, 11:17 AM
Well to be fair to rose he has to get through the heat, which many pick to win the finals. If rose doesn't get to the finals I don't think you can criticize him too much as he needs to beat lebton, wade, and bosh while rose only has deng noah and booz. I think management will/should get majority of blame if the team doesn't get it done. Now if rose shoots 35% and is settling for threes and plays poorly, than yes.

albertc86
04-20-2012, 11:19 AM
No. Rose isn't heralded in the same way that LeBron is. Big difference.

meloman1592
04-20-2012, 11:35 AM
LeBron is held to a higher standard than every player in the league. Not just because he's better than them, but because he's supposed to be better then them. He's been hyped as the next Jordan since he was in high school. Anything less is a failure. It's ok when Derrick Rose loses to LeBron because he doesn't have anything close to the physical gifts LeBron has, just like every other player in the league. I'm not saying it's fair, but it's how the system works. We don't criticize LeBron because he fails. We criticize LeBron because he fails when he should succeed. Derrick Rose is the absolute best player he can possibly be given his physical abilities. LeBron is not. He leaves something on the table, which is a shame consider just how good he could be. I think that's why we criticize him so much.

This was very well said

daricoliver
04-20-2012, 11:59 AM
People say outside of Rose they don't have any superstars, and that may be true. But they have 2 top 10 players at their position in Boozer and Deng with Noah more than likely a top 10 himself. They also have the best bench in the league as well. Rose is icing on the top of a cake for this team...And the way this team is built, they don't need Rose. They have a lot of weapons and IMO Rose holds them back. He doesn't spread the ball around enough and is too worried about getting his, his teammates get cold, and when they are needed, they can't do anything. The Bulls have a tremendously amazing rounded team. Defenders in the paint in Noah and Asik. A shooter at PF and another defender at PF in Boozer and Taj. Sharp shooter in Korver and a damn good defender in Deng who can score. A shooter in Rip who hasn't played much this year, but still a shooter and another damn good defender in Brewer. This just leads to me saying...Rose is overrated, and this year clearly showed that

This is one of the most moronic posts I have ever seen. Rose is holding them back? This team does not need Rose? Did you watch the damn game last night. What was the one thing they desperately needed. They needed penetration and did not get it from anyone. They have won this year because of their defense, but Rose makes them go. Yes, he shoots a lot, but he puts tremendous pressure on opposing teams defenses. They have a well rounded team, yes, but it is very incomplete without Rose and last night was a great illustration. Rose is also a very good defender and this is an underrated part of his game. I did not say great so don't jump all over me for this comment. This year has not shown any such nonsense about Rose being overrated. If they do not have him in the playoffs, they probably do not make it past the first round.

celtNYpatsHeels
04-20-2012, 12:04 PM
Rose clearly isnt healthy this season. If he was 100% healthy then yes, he would deserve criticism. Maybe even more than LeBron, because his Bulls teammates and head coach are head and shoulders above those Cavs teams and Mike Brown.

rapjuicer06
04-20-2012, 12:13 PM
This is one of the most moronic posts I have ever seen. Rose is holding them back? This team does not need Rose? Did you watch the damn game last night. What was the one thing they desperately needed. They needed penetration and did not get it from anyone. They have won this year because of their defense, but Rose makes them go. Yes, he shoots a lot, but he puts tremendous pressure on opposing teams defenses. They have a well rounded team, yes, but it is very incomplete without Rose and last night was a great illustration. Rose is also a very good defender and this is an underrated part of his game. I did not say great so don't jump all over me for this comment. This year has not shown any such nonsense about Rose being overrated. If they do not have him in the playoffs, they probably do not make it past the first round.

I guess you aren't understanding what I'm saying. With Rose out, the Bulls have played as a team. And they have played GREAT as a team. They have everything. The team was put together perfectly. When Rose is playing they all sit around and watch. They aren't the same team with Rose playing. Are they better? I said the Bulls are the most complete team in the NBA. They can compete and beat any team with out Rose. They depend on each other when Rose isn't playing, but when Rose is playing, they depend soley on him. It's partly the teams fault, and Rose's fault. Rose is a scorer, straight up. He looks for himself to score. He dishes the ball well too. But he looks for himself first and teammates second. And thats fine...but when you have a complete team like this, you need to use them more. Rose does too much, and it hurts the team. I personally don't think the Bulls need Rose, doesn't mean you or anyone else does. But they have him, he just needs to play under control and settle down a bit and keep his team involved. The team is what will beat the Heat, not Rose.

Stinkyoutsider
04-20-2012, 12:19 PM
I don't think Rose should get the blame and either should Lebron for not helping his team win the title. Blame should be on the organizations. Granted, the Cavs tried year after year to put together a group of players to help James but in the end, it was the wrong collection of players.

Rose is in the same boat. I think Rose needs 1 player that's his equal as far as talent and production. Lebron got it in Wade but didn't win last year (close though). If Rose doesn't get that 2nd player on his level, I don't blame him for not winning it. Basketball is a team game...

daricoliver
04-20-2012, 12:20 PM
Regarding the original question, does Rose deserve some criticism? The answer is yes. He said as much at the beginning of the year. He said it was on him. I like the fact that Rose takes responsibility for his play.

Rose may have to change his style of play and become more of a distributor, drive and kick, and save the punishment he takes throughout the game with some of his drives. I wish he would be more of a distributor during the first three quarters and try to take over more in the fourth quarter. He has just gotten battered this year and will have a short career if he keeps this up. The one thing that is impressive about Rose is his will to win. He takes every loss personally.

I am not sure why we are all acting like it is a foregone conclusion that Miami is going to beat the Bulls or the Bulls are going to lose to another team. Miami has shown that they are not invincible. Why all the hand wringing over something that has not even happened yet.

daricoliver
04-20-2012, 12:33 PM
They depend on each other when Rose isn't playing, but when Rose is playing, they depend soley on him. It's partly the teams fault, and Rose's fault. Rose is a scorer, straight up. He looks for himself to score. He dishes the ball well too. But he looks for himself first and teammates second. And thats fine...but when you have a complete team like this, you need to use them more. Rose does too much, and it hurts the team. I personally don't think the Bulls need Rose, doesn't mean you or anyone else does. But they have him, he just needs to play under control and settle down a bit and keep his team involved. The team is what will beat the Heat, not Rose.

I agree with you to a certain point and said as much in another post about Rose. He does need to become more of a distributor throughout the game. Here is where we disagree. Without Rose, they have no one that can take over a game at any point. Case in point last night. They were all off, no ones jumper was falling. When they have had times like this earlier this year and last year, they could rely on Rose to bail them out. He did, several times this year that very thing. Without Rose, they are a good team, but not elite. With Rose, they can be elite.

I actually think Rose will mature a bit more and be willing to be more patient with his team. He is so high strung and head strong that when the Bulls start to lose or go through a bad stretch, Rose feels like he has to take over. These are the times he starts to put his head down and drive to the hole or jack up an ill advised three and try to will his team to victory. He hates losing. I admire that, but I do think as he matures we will see less of this especially early on in games.

JasonJohnHorn
04-20-2012, 12:57 PM
No. He's not as good as LBJ and so shouldn't be held to the same standard. And seriously, LBJ had more talent around him. With Big-Z and Shaq at center, and Anderson-V and Jamison at PF, and Mo-Williams at PG... that's more than D-Rose has. Noah doesn't have the same impact on the game that Shaq had, even that late in his career. LBJ and Mike Brown just didn't know how to take advantage of being able to have Shaq on the floor. And while Boozer is good, and is certainly a better rebounder than Jamison, Jamison was still very much a great player and had Andreson-V and Hickson backing him up. The Cavs had a deep front court at the time and should have been eating up other teams in the paint. Their only hole really was a shooting guard.

Plus D-Rose is likely going to have to play a team that has LBJ Wade and Bosh, and LBJ never had to play a team with that much talent in their prime. Boston had it in 2008, but by 2010 their guys weren't in their prime, and in 2009 they didn't have Garnett, and Dwight didn't have that much help in Orlando that season, so the Cavs should have really had a clear path to the finals in 2009 and 2010.

The Bulls have the best record, but not by much, and the Heat has more prime-all-star talent than any team James had to play against in 2009 and 2010.

rapjuicer06
04-20-2012, 12:59 PM
I agree with you to a certain point and said as much in another post about Rose. He does need to become more of a distributor throughout the game. Here is where we disagree. Without Rose, they have no one that can take over a game at any point. Case in point last night. They were all off, no ones jumper was falling. When they have had times like this earlier this year and last year, they could rely on Rose to bail them out. He did, several times this year that very thing. Without Rose, they are a good team, but not elite. With Rose, they can be elite.

I actually think Rose will mature a bit more and be willing to be more patient with his team. He is so high strung and head strong that when the Bulls start to lose or go through a bad stretch, Rose feels like he has to take over. These are the times he starts to put his head down and drive to the hole or jack up an ill advised three and try to will his team to victory. He hates losing. I admire that, but I do think as he matures we will see less of this especially early on in games.

You're thinking strictly offensively though. Defensively they can easily take over the game. Boozer/Deng/Rip/Taj/Korver/Watson. They have people who can score. If they are off? Then they are like every other team. What killed the Bulls in the playoffs last year was Rose (against the Heat). He was off against them and they got beat down. If it weren't for Bulls fans and Chicago media drastically overrating Rose, I'd be a fan of him. The guy is eletric, and is just a damn good player. But the Bulls, as a team, just stand around and watch him when he's on the court. That hurts them

rapjuicer06
04-20-2012, 01:01 PM
No. He's not as good as LBJ and so shouldn't be held to the same standard. And seriously, LBJ had more talent around him. With Big-Z and Shaq at center, and Anderson-V and Jamison at PF, and Mo-Williams at PG... that's more than D-Rose has. Noah doesn't have the same impact on the game that Shaq had, even that late in his career. LBJ and Mike Brown just didn't know how to take advantage of being able to have Shaq on the floor. And while Boozer is good, and is certainly a better rebounder than Jamison, Jamison was still very much a great player and had Andreson-V and Hickson backing him up. The Cavs had a deep front court at the time and should have been eating up other teams in the paint. Their only hole really was a shooting guard.

Plus D-Rose is likely going to have to play a team that has LBJ Wade and Bosh, and LBJ never had to play a team with that much talent in their prime. Boston had it in 2008, but by 2010 their guys weren't in their prime, and in 2009 they didn't have Garnett, and Dwight didn't have that much help in Orlando that season, so the Cavs should have really had a clear path to the finals in 2009 and 2010.

The Bulls have the best record, but not by much, and the Heat has more prime-all-star talent than any team James had to play against in 2009 and 2010.

Are you ****ing kidding me?

daricoliver
04-20-2012, 01:38 PM
You're thinking strictly offensively though. Defensively they can easily take over the game. Boozer/Deng/Rip/Taj/Korver/Watson. They have people who can score. If they are off? Then they are like every other team. What killed the Bulls in the playoffs last year was Rose (against the Heat). He was off against them and they got beat down. If it weren't for Bulls fans and Chicago media drastically overrating Rose, I'd be a fan of him. The guy is eletric, and is just a damn good player. But the Bulls, as a team, just stand around and watch him when he's on the court. That hurts them

If defensively they can take over the game, they would have beaten Miami because they held Miami to few enough points. The problem in last years series was offensively which is why I am thinking offensively. It is given that this team is going to play good defense. What killed the Bulls in the playoffs was not Rose. Yes, you were right, he did not have a good series and took an ungodly amount of shots, but he got very little help and felt like he had to carry the team. Your starting shooting guard had 5, 4, 6, and 6 points in games 2, 3, 4, 5. Your starting center had 9, 1, 6, and 5 points in games 2, 3, 4, 5. Boozer and Deng were only marginally better. Deng did not shoot well in game 2 and 5: 5 for 15 including 1 for 7 in 3's in game 2 and 6-17 in game 5. Boozer was dreadful in game 2 and game 5. He had a whopping 7 points in game 2 and even more pathetic 5 points in game 5. Granted both Deng and Boozer were decent in games 3 and 4 including an outstanding for Boozer in game 3 with 26 points but this only proves my point. You need mulitple threats and consistent production from your starters. They did not get this from everyone and that is why they lost, not because of DRose.

Southsideheat
04-20-2012, 01:46 PM
30-7 with Rose
16-8 without Rose

Yea, the bulls are worse off without Rose................:facepalm:

The offense is different with Rose with the ball in his hand as opposed to 5 guys touching the ball on every possession, but he gives the Bulls easier shots not only from him, but for everybody else too. He might night get assists, but his attention gives his teammates assists and points. They need him badly to beat the Heat, they might not need him as much against others.

rapjuicer06
04-20-2012, 02:02 PM
If defensively they can take over the game, they would have beaten Miami because they held Miami to few enough points. The problem in last years series was offensively which is why I am thinking offensively. It is given that this team is going to play good defense. What killed the Bulls in the playoffs was not Rose. Yes, you were right, he did not have a good series and took an ungodly amount of shots, but he got very little help and felt like he had to carry the team. Your starting shooting guard had 5, 4, 6, and 6 points in games 2, 3, 4, 5. Your starting center had 9, 1, 6, and 5 points in games 2, 3, 4, 5. Boozer and Deng were only marginally better. Deng did not shoot well in game 2 and 5: 5 for 15 including 1 for 7 in 3's in game 2 and 6-17 in game 5. Boozer was dreadful in game 2 and game 5. He had a whopping 7 points in game 2 and even more pathetic 5 points in game 5. Granted both Deng and Boozer were decent in games 3 and 4 including an outstanding for Boozer in game 3 with 26 points but this only proves my point. You need mulitple threats and consistent production from your starters. They did not get this from everyone and that is why they lost, not because of DRose.

If you don't get the chances to shoot you're going to go cold. If you are called upon when you haven't got in any kind of rythem, you aren't going to step up. Rose took an insanely amount of shots, and because of that the team was cold

ChicagoJ
04-20-2012, 02:25 PM
Rose isn't expected to be a player that is unstoppable to the point he wins games for his team all by himself. The Bulls have a deep team where Rose is one part of it, sure a big part, but still he isn't the same player LeBron was expected to be in 09/10. Two different situations.

Even as a bulls fan I don't want to see Rose dominating the other team by himself. Our team isn't structured that way and Rose isn't that kind of player really. If the bulls are going to win it all this year or in the next few years it will be a team that moves the ball around and a different guy has a big game each night. So, win or loose isn't squarely on rose just due to the type of team they are.

basketfan4life
04-20-2012, 02:34 PM
Its understandable when you realize that he made ******* into a contender for years. He deserves to try and build a winner himself. Imagine how unfair it would be if he joined Chicago




Why? Hes 27, this aint a do or die year for him. And Rose wont get the same criticism because hes not seen in that same light of greatness, in reality he has a contending team around him, better than what Bron has to work with, its up to him to lead them there.

Chronz, i respect the hell out of you, but these doesn't matter. He has dwyane ****ing wade and chris bosh playing with him. People act like they have no player out of these 3 but haslem, battier , miller , chalmers and even anthony are good role players, it's much more then enough, and is better than what chicago have to me. Not winning 2 years in a row with that squad when you call yourself a king and say not 7 ships, these are enough for me.

Also building a dynasty this way isn't ok with me. Go play with amare and great role players i'm ok, go play with rose and great role players i'm ok, but this? A man some people consider as good as you? a man who already won by being the man, this is i'm not ok with.

Evolution23
04-20-2012, 02:48 PM
he wont get it because he's the "humble superstar"

Southsideheat
04-20-2012, 02:52 PM
he wont get it because he's the "humble superstar"

no, because he's 6'3'' and doesn't have a superstar next to him.

Heater4life
04-20-2012, 02:57 PM
Rose is 6-3, he has limitations other superstars don't.

Lmao! That was just funny.

ILMindState
04-20-2012, 03:15 PM
They could win the championship with Rose leading them the whole way and people would still criticize him. It's the way society is nowadays. Haters gon hate

king4day
04-20-2012, 03:23 PM
How injured was Lebron in those seasons? Did he miss almost half the season? And last, did he not play enough to get chemistry with the team?

I give him a pass this year. Because if he's healthy, I don't think Rose will be stopped this year.

Chronz
04-20-2012, 03:27 PM
Chronz, i respect the hell out of you, but these doesn't matter. He has dwyane ****ing wade and chris bosh playing with him. People act like they have no player out of these 3 but haslem, battier , miller , chalmers and even anthony are good role players, it's much more then enough, and is better than what chicago have to me. Not winning 2 years in a row with that squad when you call yourself a king and say not 7 ships, these are enough for me.

Also building a dynasty this way isn't ok with me. Go play with amare and great role players i'm ok, go play with rose and great role players i'm ok, but this? A man some people consider as good as you? a man who already won by being the man, this is i'm not ok with.
I dont think Im denying his teams talent but your definitely overrating it when your saying Joel is a good role player, he shouldnt be in any NBA rotation. Haslem/Battier/Miller havent been the same but Im hopeful they can turn it around for the playoffs. But Joel? He is by far the worst player in the playoffs getting rotation minutes since D-Fish got demoted. Rony Turiaf was cut by the Knicks and the Heat gave him a starting gig. So how great can Joel be? The Bulls have a better team IMO thats all I was saying. If Bron doesnt win you bet he will hear the talk but he will STILL be 28.

daricoliver
04-20-2012, 03:32 PM
If you don't get the chances to shoot you're going to go cold. If you are called upon when you haven't got in any kind of rythem, you aren't going to step up. Rose took an insanely amount of shots, and because of that the team was cold

Maybe the team was cold and that is why Rose took a lot of shots. The premise of your argument above is a stretch at best. Shooters come in off the bench cold all the time and they are relied on to make shots all the time. Superstars from other teams dominate the ball all the time, including Lebron and Wade. Do we excuse their teammates from missing the shots that are presented them. This is just a ridiculous argument you are trying to make.

b@llhog24
04-20-2012, 03:41 PM
Even though Lebron didn't have to go through a super team (if you don't consider Boston a super team). Rose doesn't have the lack of support Lbj had in Cleveland.

Southsideheat
04-20-2012, 04:06 PM
Lmao! That was just funny.

You don't think a 6'7'' Derrick Rose would be 10x better than a 6'3'' Derrick Rose? You're funny.

bucketss
04-20-2012, 04:10 PM
You don't think a 6'7'' Derrick Rose would be 10x better than a 6'3'' Derrick Rose? You're funny.

he has limitations sure but he also has advantages other superstar dont

rapjuicer06
04-20-2012, 04:16 PM
Maybe the team was cold and that is why Rose took a lot of shots. The premise of your argument above is a stretch at best. Shooters come in off the bench cold all the time and they are relied on to make shots all the time. Superstars from other teams dominate the ball all the time, including Lebron and Wade. Do we excuse their teammates from missing the shots that are presented them. This is just a ridiculous argument you are trying to make.

So you're telling me the fact that a player comes in cold off the bench and standing there watching a guy play basketball while the others shove their thumbs up their *** isn't going to affect them negatively? Really?

daricoliver
04-20-2012, 04:16 PM
Even though Lebron didn't have to go through a super team (if you don't consider Boston a super team). Rose doesn't have the lack of support Lbj had in Cleveland.

You are so right about this. I wanted to try to make an argument about Cleveland having a good supporting cast, but there's just no way to make the argument. People forget how amazing Jamison was for a few years with Dallas, but by the 09-10 season, he was only a shell of his former self. The same could be said for Shaq and Big Z. Hickson was too young. Parker and West were ok players but nothing special. Varejo (AKA the big spaz) was a solid Noah type. Mo Williams was their second best player and was best suited even then for what he is now for the Clippers, a sixth man specialist. Lebron carried them.

Southsideheat
04-20-2012, 04:18 PM
he has limitations sure but he also has advantages other superstar dont

Top superstars don't have to exude much energy and pain to score, because of his size, Rose does. Guys like Lebron, Jordan, Kobe, Melo, Dwight, actually rest on offense and spend more energy on defense. Not for Rose.

daricoliver
04-20-2012, 04:33 PM
So you're telling me the fact that a player comes in cold off the bench and standing there watching a guy play basketball while the others shove their thumbs up their *** isn't going to affect them negatively? Really?

You are so overstating this that it is ridiculous. This is not what happened and you are just making these crazy assertions which have no basis in reality.

Boozer had 19 shots in game 3, the same as Rose. Lebron had 26 shots in game 4 which was close to what Rose had in any one game. Korver was 1 out of 7 in 3's game 2. Is that enough shots for you? He played better in game 4, he was 2 for 6.

The bottom line is this, ALL of the Bulls played poorly including Rose, but to say that they lost the series because of Rose is absolute bull ****. They had solid players have very inconsistent series which is what I have argued all along and then you throw out these wild haymaker arguments to try to prove your point that Rose lost the series for the Bulls. He did not. The Bulls pathetic inconsistent team effort did.

Hawkize31
04-20-2012, 05:00 PM
It's always the same thing when people criticize Lebron. "He has no rings he has no rings". Are people really dumb enough to think individual players win championships?

Yeah, Lebron is the leader of a group of 12 every year, but no basketball player ever will be able to win an NBA championship by themselves. It's a team effort, and whether you are talking about Jordan, Kobe, Lebron, rose, whoever...it takes a team effort to win a title(s).

rapjuicer06
04-20-2012, 05:07 PM
You are so overstating this that it is ridiculous. This is not what happened and you are just making these crazy assertions which have no basis in reality.

Boozer had 19 shots in game 3, the same as Rose. Lebron had 26 shots in game 4 which was close to what Rose had in any one game. Korver was 1 out of 7 in 3's game 2. Is that enough shots for you? He played better in game 4, he was 2 for 6.

The bottom line is this, ALL of the Bulls played poorly including Rose, but to say that they lost the series because of Rose is absolute bull ****. They had solid players have very inconsistent series which is what I have argued all along and then you throw out these wild haymaker arguments to try to prove your point that Rose lost the series for the Bulls. He did not. The Bulls pathetic inconsistent team effort did.

Derrick Rose was 8.4-24 in the series against the Heat. Thats what his average per game was. Thats ****ing pathetic. You can blame it on the surrounding cast all you want, but when your best player can't realize that he's actually hurtiing the team jacking up shot after shot after shot, playing wreckless then idk wtf to say. Rose played like *** in that series, that is why they lost that series.

Southsideheat
04-20-2012, 05:31 PM
Derrick Rose was 8.4-24 in the series against the Heat. Thats what his average per game was. Thats ****ing pathetic. You can blame it on the surrounding cast all you want, but when your best player can't realize that he's actually hurtiing the team jacking up shot after shot after shot, playing wreckless then idk wtf to say. Rose played like *** in that series, that is why they lost that series.

Thats the problem, Rose taking any sort of shot is better than other guys taking shots, not to mention his driving ability is one of the main reason the Bulls are the best in offensive rebounds. Did you watch the game last night? They were a jump shooting team, with no other option to be anything else.

Kutchie03
04-20-2012, 05:53 PM
Only difference is that teams weren't as stacked back in 09/10 as they have been the past few years. LBJ got shut down by the Celtics (who were damn good) and then the Magic. Those two teams didn't have the starpower that the HEAT and Thunder have this year. They are more comparable to this year's Spurs, who are an afterthought for Finals contenders after the Bulls, HEAT and THunder.

daricoliver
04-20-2012, 06:02 PM
Derrick Rose was 8.4-24 in the series against the Heat. Thats what his average per game was. Thats ****ing pathetic. You can blame it on the surrounding cast all you want, but when your best player can't realize that he's actually hurtiing the team jacking up shot after shot after shot, playing wreckless then idk wtf to say. Rose played like *** in that series, that is why they lost that series.

You are right its pathetic, buts its not what lost the series. That was your premise not mine. My premise is that the entire team was pathetic and that was what lost the series. If you have one guy who was beasting the entire series, we probably are not even having this discussion. If you have specific guys who had great games, then maybe DRose does not feel the need to take over and jack up shots. The one good game that Boozer had he scored 26 points and 19 shots. Rose had the same number of shots that day and the same field goal percentage that night 8-19. That is my point you seem to have missed. Nobody else really stepped up besides that night . When nobody else steps up and you are the team leader, what do you do. You keep firing, you keep trying to will your team to win. You try to carry your team. He tried, he failed. He did not fail his team by himself. The whole team failed because no one else stepped up to relieve the pressure. They were all MIA against Miami.

ManRam
04-20-2012, 06:08 PM
No, he won't get the same criticism. Whether or not you think LeBron had better players around him, LeBron was regarded by a majority as the best player in the NBA at the time, so his failures were more significant...plus, he's LeBron...and even pre-Decision, he was antagonized a bit more by the world.

But it will come eventually if he doesn't win, obviously.

Sactown
04-20-2012, 06:14 PM
No, he won't get the same criticism. Whether or not you think LeBron had better players around him, LeBron was regarded by a majority as the best player in the NBA at the time, so his failures were more significant...plus, he's LeBron...and even pre-Decision, he was antagonized a bit more by the world.

But it will come eventually if he doesn't win, obviously.

I don't think so, Lebron is head and shoulders above the rest of the league, and the taunting on the side lines has built up a hype and dislike for him.
I don't think Rose will ever face this kind of scrutiny.

ManRam
04-20-2012, 06:15 PM
I don't think so, Lebron is head and shoulders above the rest of the league, and the taunting on the side lines has built up a hype and dislike for him.
I don't think Rose will ever face this kind of scrutiny.

Taunting on the side lines? Don't hear that complaint much.


You really think that if Rose doesn't get to the Finals in the next 3-4 years that people aren't going to start thinking differently of him...or scrutinizing him?

naps
04-20-2012, 06:31 PM
Not sure why rose would get criticized when he's going against two of the top 5 players in the nba, it's really the other way around, if heat loses to the bulls, wade and bron will get bashed

So people can bash LeBron with Mo Williams as his 2nd best player going against the almighty Celtics but not bash Rose? I am not saying Rose should be bashed but if you think bashing LeBron was justified then Rose should absolutely be bashed. Both teams had best record 2 years in a row and failed. Same scenario except Rose have a much much better cast than LeBron had in Cleveland.

ManRam
04-20-2012, 06:38 PM
So people can bash LeBron with Mo Williams as his 2nd best player going against the almighty Celtics but not bash Rose? I am not saying Rose should be bashed but if you think bashing LeBron was justified then Rose should absolutely be bashed. Both teams had best record 2 years in a row and failed. Same scenario except Rose have a much much better cast than LeBron had in Cleveland.

LeBron with this Bulls supporting cast :speechless:


For the most part, everyone has their fall from grace. As a whole, we wait for a chance to pounce on these guys. The criticism will come...unless he wins. Winning cures most everything. To suggest that it won't ever come is foolish. That's how we are as a sport-rooting society.

Sactown
04-20-2012, 06:39 PM
Taunting on the side lines? Don't hear that complaint much.


You really think that if Rose doesn't get to the Finals in the next 3-4 years that people aren't going to start thinking differently of him...or scrutinizing him?

I don't, because he'll always have the excuse of the Miami Heat. Just like many past teams who ran into the Bulls. And there was a huge portion of the book "The Whore of Akron" that was dedicated to Lebrons so called "Child like" acts on the sidelines with his dancing and taunts

naps
04-20-2012, 06:45 PM
Dunno if this has been pointed out but watching the Bulls game yesterday, the announcers pointed out that NO team has made it past the first round the following year after one of their players won MVP...

what? Can't be a serious post. Lakers won it all the following season Kobe won MVP. Cleveland went to 2nd round the following year LeBron won the MVP. I gave two most recent examples. I am sure 90% MVP made it past the first round the year after winning the award.

ManRam
04-20-2012, 06:46 PM
I don't, because he'll always have the excuse of the Miami Heat. Just like many past teams who ran into the Bulls. And there was a huge portion of the book "The Whore of Akron" that was dedicated to Lebrons so called "Child like" acts on the sidelines with his dancing and taunts

How dare he dance with his teammates?!?! No one has ever done that before! Must.Always.Be.Serious.


Excuses...well, they're excuses. That's silly. Doubt you ever found an excuse for LeBron that was every worthy...right? You don't give LeBron any slack for losing to Boston, San Antonio and Detroit, do you? Not like any of those teams were slouches at all...

naps
04-20-2012, 06:53 PM
LeBron with this Bulls supporting cast .

Seriously, it would be disgustingly good. It would be over for the league hands down.

northsider
04-20-2012, 06:57 PM
Has Lebron won his ring yet? If the answer to this is still no then rest assured he will be receiving most criticism for not winning. People aren't waiting for Rose they are waiting for the King, the Chosen One, and what is without argument the best player in the NBA to win one first before averting attention.

rapjuicer06
04-20-2012, 06:58 PM
You are right its pathetic, buts its not what lost the series. That was your premise not mine. My premise is that the entire team was pathetic and that was what lost the series. If you have one guy who was beasting the entire series, we probably are not even having this discussion. If you have specific guys who had great games, then maybe DRose does not feel the need to take over and jack up shots. The one good game that Boozer had he scored 26 points and 19 shots. Rose had the same number of shots that day and the same field goal percentage that night 8-19. That is my point you seem to have missed. Nobody else really stepped up besides that night . When nobody else steps up and you are the team leader, what do you do. You keep firing, you keep trying to will your team to win. You try to carry your team. He tried, he failed. He did not fail his team by himself. The whole team failed because no one else stepped up to relieve the pressure. They were all MIA against Miami.

You said right in there that Rose took it upon himself and failed.

Deng in that series was shooting 40% and 42% from three

Boozer was shooting 40% also

Taj was actually playing damn good ball but didn't see a lot of playing time...which confused me a bit

Korver was off, but was also not getting a whole lot of minutes either

Rose was shooting a miserable 35% and 23% from three and still jacking up 24 shots a game (roughly)

Deng in games 3 and 4 was shooting 46% and 50% 13 shots and 16 shots from the field, Boozer was shooting 42% and 50% 19 and 14 also. Rose in those two games 42% and 29% taking 19 shots and 27 shots. Those games were close too. With Boozer and Deng having their best games in those two games and Rose not having all that great of games, he should have made plays for those two guys, and he did not do that. Instead he continued to jack up shot after shot which caused them to lose winnable games. And then in game 5, they all were just dog *** tired. Rose was a big reason why they lost.

rapjuicer06
04-20-2012, 06:59 PM
Has Lebron won his ring yet? If the answer to this is still no then rest assured he will be receiving most criticism for not winning. People aren't waiting for Rose they are waiting for the King, the Chosen One, and what is without argument the best player in the NBA to win one first before averting attention.

And as soon as he wins one, he'll still get bashed. The guy can't "win"

northsider
04-20-2012, 07:11 PM
You said right in there that Rose took it upon himself and failed.

Deng in that series was shooting 40% and 42% from three

Boozer was shooting 40% also

Taj was actually playing damn good ball but didn't see a lot of playing time...which confused me a bit

Korver was off, but was also not getting a whole lot of minutes either

Rose was shooting a miserable 35% and 23% from three and still jacking up 24 shots a game (roughly)

Deng in games 3 and 4 was shooting 46% and 50% 13 shots and 16 shots from the field, Boozer was shooting 42% and 50% 19 and 14 also. Rose in those two games 42% and 29% taking 19 shots and 27 shots. Those games were close too. With Boozer and Deng having their best games in those two games and Rose not having all that great of games, he should have made plays for those two guys, and he did not do that. Instead he continued to jack up shot after shot which caused them to lose winnable games. And then in game 5, they all were just dog *** tired. Rose was a big reason why they lost.

And a huge reason they were there to begin with. This argument works a bunch of different angles.

effen5
04-20-2012, 07:13 PM
So people can bash LeBron with Mo Williams as his 2nd best player going against the almighty Celtics but not bash Rose? I am not saying Rose should be bashed but if you think bashing LeBron was justified then Rose should absolutely be bashed. Both teams had best record 2 years in a row and failed. Same scenario except Rose have a much much better cast than LeBron had in Cleveland.

The difference is lebron lebron is considered the best player in the game he will get bashed every year he doesn't win especially now.

Also lebron doesn't have to go against two of the best players in their prime like rose does, specifically two players who are considered better then rose.

Lebron was better then everybody on that celtics team, rose isn't better then lebron. I hope that kinda makes sense

northsider
04-20-2012, 07:15 PM
And as soon as he wins one, he'll still get bashed. The guy can't "win"

Yes he can def. win. No matter how you put it that monkey is on Lebrons back so even if people continue to bash him he at least gets some weight taken off personally. There is always going to be haters but, until he gets a ring even Lebron has to deal with that demon.

ManRam
04-20-2012, 07:25 PM
I don't blame LeBron for not winning in Cleveland. I think him winning with that cast would have been unprecedented honestly, and expecting, or even demanding the unprecedented doesn't make sense to me. I can't blame him for not winning it all in Cleveland. I don't care about regular season records or what...I just can't do it. I don't know of a star player that ever had won a ring with as little around him, so I can't fault him for that.

I know not everyone shares that opinion, and to each their own...

I do slight him for not winning last year, and will continue to do so so long as he's on a capable team.

naps
04-20-2012, 08:35 PM
The difference is lebron lebron is considered the best player in the game he will get bashed every year he doesn't win especially now.

Also lebron doesn't have to go against two of the best players in their prime like rose does, specifically two players who are considered better then rose.

Lebron was better then everybody on that celtics team, rose isn't better then lebron. I hope that kinda makes sense

Again you are not getting the point OP asked. It's about their REGULAR season dominance for 2 years in a row and still failure to replicate that in the post season. People bash LeBron because Cleveland had the best records so Rose should be bashed for the same reason. Both are same circumstances except LeBron being the best player on the planet those years but Rose having a much better cast around him. As the leaders of both teams, both should get similar treatments if they have the exact same fate in regular season and post season for 2 years in a row. Again the point is not who you have to go through. People do not look at Boston team when they criticize LeBron so therefore, they shouldn't look at this years Miami if Rose can't get past them. Not that I support either of them getting bashed but I hope this makes it clear for you.

billsftw
04-20-2012, 09:22 PM
Again you are not getting the point OP asked. It's about their REGULAR season dominance for 2 years in a row and still failure to replicate that in the post season. People bash LeBron because Cleveland had the best records so Rose should be bashed for the same reason. Both are same circumstances except LeBron being the best player on the planet those years but Rose having a much better cast around him. As the leaders of both teams, both should get similar treatments if they have the exact same fate in regular season and post season for 2 years in a row. Again the point is not who you have to go through. People do not look at Boston team when they criticize LeBron so therefore, they shouldn't look at this years Miami if Rose can't get past them. Not that I support either of them getting bashed but I hope this makes it clear for you.

Dw about it man. Just enjoy the fact that the Bulls won't make it out of the ECF for the duration of Rose's contract. Dw about how much people criticize them. Just feed off their pain :)

effen5
04-20-2012, 10:19 PM
Dw about it man. Just enjoy the fact that the Bulls won't make it out of the ECF for the duration of Rose's contract. Dw about how much people criticize them. Just feed off their pain :)

Your a bills fan....:cry: let me taste your tears

billsftw
04-20-2012, 10:22 PM
Your a bills fan....:cry: let me taste your tears

lol wrong.
i do admit, i didn't get much sleep after this year's superbowl, but i do like Eli Manning and we already have 3 of our own.
Regardless, i like how Bulls fans try and defend Rose from ANY criticism, even though our second best player is tonnes better than him (05 finals :) )

effen5
04-20-2012, 10:27 PM
Again you are not getting the point OP asked. It's about their REGULAR season dominance for 2 years in a row and still failure to replicate that in the post season. People bash LeBron because Cleveland had the best records so Rose should be bashed for the same reason. Both are same circumstances except LeBron being the best player on the planet those years but Rose having a much better cast around him. As the leaders of both teams, both should get similar treatments if they have the exact same fate in regular season and post season for 2 years in a row. Again the point is not who you have to go through. People do not look at Boston team when they criticize LeBron so therefore, they shouldn't look at this years Miami if Rose can't get past them. Not that I support either of them getting bashed but I hope this makes it clear for you.

Again, Lebron and Rose are going through two completely different situations. Lebron is/was the best player during the playoff series, while Rose will maybe be the third....I don't understand how anyone can criticize Rose for that?

That's like saying we should criticize Ewing because he couldn't get passed through Jordan and Pippen...

I'm sorry I just don't understand your point, especially in a season where Rose has missed almost half the games of the season. If the Bulls lose, shouldn't we blame more on the rest of the roster since they are the ones that have dominated this season?

effen5
04-20-2012, 10:30 PM
lol wrong.
i do admit, i didn't get much sleep after this year's superbowl, but i do like Eli Manning and we already have 3 of our own.
Regardless, i like how Bulls fans try and defend Rose from ANY criticism, even though our second best player is tonnes better than him (05 finals :) )

Why is it bad that I am defending Rose? Thats like saying Heat fans defend Bron and Wade from any criticism too.

Also, I think people forget, Rose has been hurt 41 percent of the season...he actually has a legit excuse why hes playing so poorly right now.

Also, try reading the Bulls forum time to time, Bulls fans are hard Rose when he plays poorly.

BTW, Im kidding about the Bills :)

Cool007
04-20-2012, 11:53 PM
Why can't we ask same question to these guys as well???

Durant: He has Westbrook and Harden with Ibaka and Perkins and if they can't get to Finals or win it all, it should count as a failure - no?

LeBron: If he still can't win it all this year, then what does that say about him? Does he need all 5 all-star starting lineup team now?

Kobe: If he doesn't make it to the Finals or win it all this year with healthy Gasol and Bynum and an actual PG this year, then how good he actually is?

So many questions you can ask to so many guys about all these guys - but why is OP singling out Rose? - especially when he is injured and probably won't be healthy all of the playoffs.

Raph12
04-21-2012, 12:00 AM
Yes, the so-called "reigning MVP" has all the help he needs to get to the Finals; his team is still elite without him and he should be what puts them over-the-top... He needs to play like an MVP for them to get to the Finals though, which I don't believe he can do consistently.

justinnum1
04-21-2012, 12:14 AM
Yes, the so-called "reigning MVP" has all the help he needs to get to the Finals; his team is still elite without him and he should be what puts them over-the-top... He needs to play like an MVP for them to get to the Finals though, which I don't believe he can do consistently.

Vs. miami over the past 2 seasons, he is shooting around 40%, miami has a great way of defending these young dynamic PG's. Westbrook over the past 2 years vs miami is shooting around 38%

Raph12
04-21-2012, 12:45 AM
Vs. miami over the past 2 seasons, he is shooting around 40%, miami has a great way of defending these young dynamic PG's. Westbrook over the past 2 years vs miami is shooting around 38%

Wade for three quarters and Lebron for the fourth would do that to people... But with that being said, the Bulls have shown they can battle with the Heat even without Rose; as long as they keep the ball moving, attack the glass and play lockdown defense, they should be fine.

If Rose can play how he had for most of the season before he got hurt, less forcing and more sharing, it will be a series; if we go for circa 2011 and Rose tries to do everything by himself... Game over.

KB24PG16
04-21-2012, 12:52 AM
no because he didnt guarantee more 7 championships like lbj

cutiepie80
04-21-2012, 12:53 AM
This is an absolute joke. First off, last year the Bulls had Noah and Boozer missing games left and right and that's two starters you need, especially being a new team together. I can't count how many games they missed. Add in a new coach. Add in they were the 8th seed the year before. Rose and Thibs were the mvp's of the regular season last year and it wasn't close.

If Rose can be 80% of his skills and they find a way to make it to the ecf's, this bulls team will not be an easy out. To say he is compareable to Lebron is a joke. This bulls team was fantastic last year and it was because of coaching and fantastic play from the mvp Rose. Same thing as Lebron, he was the mvp for a reason and it's not his fault his other teammates played like garbage.

cutiepie80
04-21-2012, 12:57 AM
Wade for three quarters and Lebron for the fourth would do that to people... But with that being said, the Bulls have shown they can battle with the Heat even without Rose; as long as they keep the ball moving, attack the glass and play lockdown defense, they should be fine.

If Rose can play how he had for most of the season before he got hurt, less forcing and more sharing, it will be a series; if we go for circa 2011 and Rose tries to do everything by himself... Game over.

Agreed and he shouldn't be forcing the ball this year. So many people say he is their only weapon but believe it or not, every single player(deng, noah,boozer) are better then last year and Rip is coming into form.

I am just praying Rose is ready by playoff time because I want a rematch of last year. It will be different this time. Not saying Bulls win, but Noah wasn't a scoring threat last year and Rip is > Bogans. All depends of Rose's health.

ALSO, not going to say if ROse isn't healthy and the heat win that I blame it on Rose. The better team wins no matter what and Rose won't be sitting if they make the ecf's.

UnWantedTheory
04-21-2012, 04:55 AM
The better question would be if the Bulls do make it, what is going to be the take on Rose when the Spurs win the chip?:D

basketfan4life
04-21-2012, 05:44 AM
I dont think Im denying his teams talent but your definitely overrating it when your saying Joel is a good role player, he shouldnt be in any NBA rotation. Haslem/Battier/Miller havent been the same but Im hopeful they can turn it around for the playoffs. But Joel? He is by far the worst player in the playoffs getting rotation minutes since D-Fish got demoted. Rony Turiaf was cut by the Knicks and the Heat gave him a starting gig. So how great can Joel be? The Bulls have a better team IMO thats all I was saying. If Bron doesnt win you bet he will hear the talk but he will STILL be 28.

yeah, i'm not saying he can't win again if he loses this year. Surely he can. Let's just agree on Joel too. But i tought he was solid defensively, i watched him live against argentina in my country (Turkey) he looked very solid defensively, but i can trust you on this. All in all, if anybody is supposed to win it this year, it's the Heat, The glory seems theirs, so is blame.

billsftw
04-21-2012, 10:58 AM
yeah, i'm not saying he can't win again if he loses this year. Surely he can. Let's just agree on Joel too. But i tought he was solid defensively, i watched him live against argentina in my country (Turkey) he looked very solid defensively, but i can trust you on this. All in all, if anybody is supposed to win it this year, it's the Heat, The glory seems theirs, so is blame.

yeh the heat should win. But that doesn't mean that if the bulls don't im not going to criticize rose. If bulls fans ddnt prop him up by saying he could actually challenge to be on wade and lebron's level, then the criticism would be much less. My friends and I don't live in America, and the majority of them are actually Bulls fans, and even they agree its the fanbase that makes watching the Bulls lose such a pleasure. I personally love Rose's talent, but i hate how much he is hyped.

Reaper7
04-21-2012, 11:28 AM
No one criticizes Rose more than him anyway, so it really doesnt matter what people say..

effen5
04-21-2012, 11:48 AM
yeh the heat should win. But that doesn't mean that if the bulls don't im not going to criticize rose. If bulls fans ddnt prop him up by saying he could actually challenge to be on wade and lebron's level, then the criticism would be much less. My friends and I don't live in America, and the majority of them are actually Bulls fans, and even they agree its the fanbase that makes watching the Bulls lose such a pleasure. I personally love Rose's talent, but i hate how much he is hyped.

Really? You hate how much he's hyped? Every single team in the nba has seen what he can do on the court, it takes 4-5 players to even stop him....but then again look at how hyped Blake griffen is or durant or Lin or melo and these guys has a much better talent then the bulls....

Rose getting ripped non stop but durant doesn't with the recent struggles of the thunder? And rose is ****in hurt for Christ sake...

effen5
04-21-2012, 11:55 AM
Yes, the so-called "reigning MVP" has all the help he needs to get to the Finals; his team is still elite without him and he should be what puts them over-the-top... He needs to play like an MVP for them to get to the Finals though, which I don't believe he can do consistently.

You clearly didn't watch the Bulls season last year. So let me explain it to you.

First off, hes not the "so called reigning MVP" HE IS THE REIGNING MVP.

Second his team is elite? You know why they are elite? Because the players that were actually hurt last year (Boozer, Noah) have been healthy and have been consistent this year.

With those two hurt, you had a team of Rose, Bogans, Deng, Taj, and Kurt...

So seriously knock that off because that team right there had less talent then your Orlando Magic with your so-called best player D12.

Also please tell me how many games a team of CJ Watson, Bogans, Deng, Taj and Kurt can win?

Green_Monster
04-21-2012, 12:04 PM
The year the Celtics upset the Cavs the Celtics did not have 1 player on the any of the all nba teams.

But they had 4 players that just missed it...

RSA27
04-21-2012, 12:09 PM
Rose has suffered five different injuries this season, and it would surprise me greatly if he makes through the playoffs without getting hurt again. He is playing at much less than full capacity so I don't think he should be to heavily criticized this year. If he was at 100% maybe it would be a different story.

effen5
04-21-2012, 12:10 PM
Rose has suffered five different injuries this season, and it would surprise me greatly if he makes through the playoffs without getting hurt again. He is playing at much less than full capacity so I don't think he should be to heavily criticized this year. If he was at 100% maybe it would be a different story.

If he was a 100 percent healthy and played like garbage in the playoffs, I would be the first person in line to criticize him.

effen5
04-21-2012, 12:25 PM
OT: I find it also ironic that Orlando fans thought D12 should've been MVP and prayed to play the bulls in the second round last year and got bounced in the first....apparently last year, Orlando had more talent then the bulls. Thats your real MVP last year. Dwight Howard.

Cubby
04-21-2012, 01:09 PM
Why are you even responding to most of them? Half of them have a known dislike for the Bulls.

effen5
04-21-2012, 01:13 PM
Because I'm bored cubby I'm bored

DR_1
04-21-2012, 01:17 PM
No because he is not the best player in the NBA and not even top 5.

Lebron is in another Level Rose will never reach.

:facepalm:
:facepalm::facepalm:
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Anyway on topic. No way, Rose didnt quit on his team.

Green_Monster
04-21-2012, 01:25 PM
:facepalm:
:facepalm::facepalm:
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Anyway on topic. No way, Rose didnt quit on his team.

Lebron
Durant
Howard
Wade
Dirk
Kobe
Love
Paul

He's 9/10th, and no, he'll never be better then Lebron.

effen5
04-21-2012, 01:27 PM
I would take bron and durant over rose and that's it.

Green_Monster
04-21-2012, 01:35 PM
I would take bron and durant over rose and that's it.

:laugh:

That's sig worthy.

blastmasta26
04-21-2012, 02:26 PM
I would take bron and durant over rose and that's it.
Homer alert. Rose is top 7 at best, top 10 at worst. Definitely not top 3.

Raph12
04-21-2012, 02:47 PM
You clearly didn't watch the Bulls season last year. So let me explain it to you.

First off, hes not the "so called reigning MVP" HE IS THE REIGNING MVP.

Second his team is elite? You know why they are elite? Because the players that were actually hurt last year (Boozer, Noah) have been healthy and have been consistent this year.

With those two hurt, you had a team of Rose, Bogans, Deng, Taj, and Kurt...

So seriously knock that off because that team right there had less talent then your Orlando Magic with your so-called best player D12.

Also please tell me how many games a team of CJ Watson, Bogans, Deng, Taj and Kurt can win?

And this year they've played great without Rose; Thibs is doing all the work, the players have just been taking credit for it. Btw most of the games, when Boozer was out, Noah was playing and when Noah was out, Boozer was playing... That team led by Thibs is still better than the Magic team without Dwight, easily.


OT: I find it also ironic that Orlando fans thought D12 should've been MVP and prayed to play the bulls in the second round last year and got bounced in the first....apparently last year, Orlando had more talent then the bulls. Thats your real MVP last year. Dwight Howard.

Got bounced by a team that matched up better against us and still do this season. The Hawks have beaten us all 3 games this season and beat us 3-1 last season. When we beat the Hawks in 2010, VC and Shard had a great series each to go along with Dwight's dominance, last year, they were traded and no one else stepped up so Dwight was left to do everything on his own.

PS: The Magic are 3-5 without Dwight so far and have given up over 50% shooting in 6 of those 8 games; we've seen the damage done by the Bulls without Rose so I don't know where you're going with that one.

Dwight was the MVP last season, it was between him and Lebron; Rose wasn't in the picture, he just won because the Bulls finished first, which they did this season as well despite Rose playing less than half the games.

thekmp211
04-21-2012, 03:29 PM
his personality will insulate him from almost all of the criticism, and that's alright. lebron brought a fair amount of scrutiny on himself, although it obviously got out of hand. ppl were waiting for him to flop, rose is pretty hard to hate besides the ravenous fanbase that sometimes goes overboard defending him.

corneilius21
04-21-2012, 04:05 PM
Lebron usually receives criticism because he disappears in these games. Its not necessarily for not caring them there but simply for not showing up at all. Whatever the reason may be, in that series against the Celtics you would forget that he is even on the floor. If Lebron plays good and his team doesn't show up at all then he wouldn't be criticized as much, IMO. If DRose doesn't show up at all then yes that warrants criticism. I just don't see that happening tho.

TheRunKiller
04-21-2012, 04:51 PM
You clearly didn't watch the Bulls season last year. So let me explain it to you.

First off, hes not the "so called reigning MVP" HE IS THE REIGNING MVP.

Second his team is elite? You know why they are elite? Because the players that were actually hurt last year (Boozer, Noah) have been healthy and have been consistent this year.

With those two hurt, you had a team of Rose, Bogans, Deng, Taj, and Kurt...

So seriously knock that off because that team right there had less talent then your Orlando Magic with your so-called best player D12.

Also please tell me how many games a team of CJ Watson, Bogans, Deng, Taj and Kurt can win?

Owned

BearsBullsSox
04-21-2012, 11:08 PM
LOL, people hate Derrick Rose so much that even in a season where he's not healthy, his season is judged next to healthy players. ****** will absolutely do anything to stack the decks, comparing an injured player's season to healthy players' seasons like Lebron, Wade, Durant, Westbrook etc is the most ******** thing Ive ever seen. I cant wait to see the haters jump back on his dick for the 2012-13 season.

krazylegz
04-22-2012, 06:28 AM
no,because d-rose isnt a wrench

daricoliver
04-22-2012, 08:38 AM
You said right in there that Rose took it upon himself and failed.

Deng in that series was shooting 40% and 42% from three

Boozer was shooting 40% also

Taj was actually playing damn good ball but didn't see a lot of playing time...which confused me a bit

Korver was off, but was also not getting a whole lot of minutes either

Rose was shooting a miserable 35% and 23% from three and still jacking up 24 shots a game (roughly)

Deng in games 3 and 4 was shooting 46% and 50% 13 shots and 16 shots from the field, Boozer was shooting 42% and 50% 19 and 14 also. Rose in those two games 42% and 29% taking 19 shots and 27 shots. Those games were close too. With Boozer and Deng having their best games in those two games and Rose not having all that great of games, he should have made plays for those two guys, and he did not do that. Instead he continued to jack up shot after shot which caused them to lose winnable games. And then in game 5, they all were just dog *** tired. Rose was a big reason why they lost.

I could not find this thread for a couple days. I have thoroughly enjoyed our back and forth on this. I enjoy posters who can articulate themselves without being asswipes.

You are right about games 3 and 4 but what about 2 and 5 the games that Boozer was just so dreadful. If you take out game 1's shooting when both Deng and Boozer were 50%, they were both below 40% for the series, not very good. If you take out game 1, Deng shot 33% from 3. You conveniently did not mention Noah's no show the entire series. Korver also had an awful series. You were right and said it in your last sentence, Rose was a big reason they lost, but certainly not the reason they lost.

youngMan
04-22-2012, 12:33 PM
No...to answer the question.

joe1nas
04-22-2012, 04:14 PM
No because he is not the best player in the NBA and not even top 5.

Lebron is in another Level Rose will never reach.

Lebron is not the best player in the leauge and he efinalty wasnt in 09 or 10

ManRam
04-22-2012, 04:26 PM
OT: I find it also ironic that Orlando fans thought D12 should've been MVP and prayed to play the bulls in the second round last year and got bounced in the first....apparently last year, Orlando had more talent then the bulls. Thats your real MVP last year. Dwight Howard.

Great post!


But not really. You could have baited slightly better, so C for execution, A for effort though!


I'm fine with Rose winning the MVP...it took a while for me, but I eventually caved. Howard's record wasn't good enough. Did he mean more to his team than Rose? Of course. But the way the MVP works, that 8 to 1 turnaround was too strong of a story line. Oh well.

joe1nas
04-22-2012, 05:27 PM
How can yall Lebron the best player in the leauge after his choke job in the finals hes not the best player on his team let alone the leauge hes a bonified stat padder

joe1nas
04-22-2012, 05:49 PM
You don't think a 6'7'' Derrick Rose would be 10x better than a 6'3'' Derrick Rose? You're funny.

a 6'7 rose would be the best player in the leauge

WadeKobe
04-22-2012, 05:52 PM
No because he is not the best player in the NBA and not even top 5.

Lebron is in another Level Rose will never reach.

And that is the shame of it all. Neither should get criticized individually.

James' team wasn't good enough to win a chip, and I'd argue that Rose's is, they just have to face a better team.

Teams win, and teams lose. Rose's team is good enough, and if they don't, it should be spoken of for what it was:

(1) The TEAM didn't do what was necessary.
(2) The TEAM lost to:

(a) A better team in the Miami Heat
(b) A better team in the Oklahoma City Thunder
(c) A team they shouldn't have lost to, and the blame gets spread around to:

EVERYONE who played below expectations.

joe1nas
04-22-2012, 06:57 PM
in 09 and 10 kobe was still considered the best in the leauge not lebron

felixng2012
04-22-2012, 07:21 PM
No. The Heat are the favorites not the Bulls.

ChicagoFan4Eva
04-22-2012, 07:57 PM
All i saw here is a bunch of bulls bashing lol.. close this thread please..
Derrick Rose has been injured.. give him a break.

Thunder and Heat are favorites to go to the finals..