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View Full Version : Does the NL have a top team?



LADTXR
04-19-2012, 01:33 AM
The AL has the Rangers, Yankees, Tigers. The NL has....Miami? Phillies? DBacks? Cardinals? None of the teams (at least early in the season) really look like a top team in the MLB. Who do you guys think could be a legit contender at the end of the season. I could see the Giants, Dbacks, Cards and Phillies possibly being contenders but definitely not right now.

Nymfan87
04-19-2012, 01:35 AM
If the Phillies can get Howard/Utley back and healthy and productive, it's them.

CHRISDODGERS
04-19-2012, 01:41 AM
Every team has ifs.

Dbacks just lost Chris Young and their top 2 pitchers are due to regress.
Giants can't hit, plus Lincecum looks like poop.
Phillies need Utley and Howard back... but who knows about them.
Cards need at least one of Carpenter or Wainwright to be their ace. Carp is hurt and Wain is struggling.

12 games in, it's hard to tell.

VRP723
04-19-2012, 01:47 AM
The Rangers and Yankees are better than every NL team. The Tigers aren't.

long ball
04-19-2012, 01:48 AM
Coming into the season it looked like the top 5-6 teams in the AL were better than the top teams in the NL. Cant really draw any conclusions from what's happened so far.

The cardinals have looked the best in the nl.

AWC713
04-19-2012, 02:12 AM
The AL has the Rangers, Yankees, Tigers. The NL has....Miami? Phillies? DBacks? Cardinals? None of the teams (at least early in the season) really look like a top team in the MLB. Who do you guys think could be a legit contender at the end of the season. I could see the Giants, Dbacks, Cards and Phillies possibly being contenders but definitely not right now.

does the al have a top TEAM? not teams, like you mentioned?

yes, the al has top TEAMS with the rangers and tigers. I'm not ready to put the yankees in that category. will they be a playoff team? most likely. but their starting rotation is still spotty. freddy garcia? how will he hold up? can nova be more than a one year wonder? all im saying is, yes they are good, but the consistancy in their rotation is not there.

the nl likewise has top TEAMS with the cardinals and phillies when healthy.

2-0-Niner
04-19-2012, 02:20 AM
Every team has ifs.

Dbacks just lost Chris Young and their top 2 pitchers are due to regress.
Giants can't hit, plus Lincecum looks like poop.
Phillies need Utley and Howard back... but who knows about them.
Cards need at least one of Carpenter or Wainwright to be their ace. Carp is hurt and Wain is struggling.

12 games in, it's hard to tell.

I am aware you said it's 12 games and it's hard to tell But seriously c'mon now. The D-backs have alot of Power. Even with Young out they still have upton, Goldschmidt, montero. They have a decent Bull pen and decent at the SP position.

The Giants are something else, Lincecum hasn't found himself yet, We lost wilson. We haven't really figured a more consistent Outfield rotation, We're hoping freddy comes back. But I think the Giants or the D-Backs end up winning the West or the Wildcard.

The Rockies don't have enough pitching, the Padres...Um Well...Yeah and The Doyers, Have Kemp and Ethier, When we get deeper in the the season, That'll be the Theme to the Dodgers Offense, JUST Kemp and Ethier LoL. Major props to Kershaw but if you think the Dodgers are going to run away with the West. The 2011 Division champs and the 2010 WS Champs have a thing to say about it.

2-0-Niner
04-19-2012, 02:21 AM
To answer the Thread Question, I would say at this Point the Cards.

As the Season goes Along, It'll the the Cards cause they're balanced, Pitching and O. The Giants because of their Pitching and They'll have enough Hitting compared to last year to score enough to win. The D-backs because they have decent Pitching and an Explosive Offense. Phillies if they can Stay Healthy.

stupidmop
04-19-2012, 02:44 AM
I don't think the NL has a team that is head and shoulders above the rest (this year). That's something I do like about the NL: while the best teams are generally in the AL, I do believe there is more competitive balance in the NL, which makes it more fun to follow as a fan of an NL team, in my opinion.

SportsAndrew25
04-19-2012, 03:04 AM
To repeat a point I have made recently, I absolutely believe that the World Series winner this year will absolutely be from the American League. None of this season's National League teams can hold a candle to the teams of the American League. The Phillies offense looks like **** without Utley and Howard. The Giants score no runs at all. The Braves offense and pitching has been very questionable lately. The Reds pitching again has proven to be brutal and the Cards have two pitchers who are either hurt or not performing. The only team in the NL that can see having any chance of winning the World Series is the Dodgers. With Kemp and Eithier and Kershaw, they will likely be in the race for the pennant.

mtf
04-19-2012, 03:37 AM
Philadelphia is the only team I would consider a true contender from the National League. That being said, I wouldn't have called the Cardinals a true contender last year after losing Wainwright, but they still managed to sneak their way into the playoffs and win just enough to get the trophy.

Pinstripe pride
04-19-2012, 09:11 AM
i dont think so. The NL seems wide open to me

DrS16
04-19-2012, 09:43 AM
The Rangers and Yankees are better than every NL team. The Tigers aren't.

The Yankees won't even make it past the first round of the playoffs and that's if they make it past Tampa for the AL East champ. There pitching is suspect and Jeter and Rodriguez are past their date of expiration!

Zander 77
04-19-2012, 09:48 AM
The Rangers and Yankees are better than every NL team. The Tigers aren't.

How do you figure that when the Tigers are an all around better team than the Yankees?

Aphrum
04-19-2012, 12:38 PM
I don't see the Yankees as being in the top 3 of the American League....

stipe1280
04-19-2012, 02:11 PM
If Philly can get Howard and Utley healthy, then they are the hands down favorites to me. Next tier for me would be: Cardinals, Brewers and Nationals for me. After that, I think it's the D-backs, Marlins, Braves and Dodgers (the whole NL West is wide open to me, honestly).

theproof
04-20-2012, 03:46 AM
The Giants score no runs at all.

I find this funny that so many people are saying this despite the fact that we are near the top in runs scored in the NL so far this year even after just getting done facing Halladay and Lee in a series. We still don't know how good the Giants offense is but they certainly haven't done but so far in the season where we should be automatically calling them a bad offensive team.

JohnBoy326
04-20-2012, 06:40 AM
Cardinals can hang with any AL team in a 7 game series, as long as Waino can be himself by the end of the season. That's a big ol' "if" at this point, but it does take 12-18 months to get fully back. I expect by September he'll be back to his old self. Carp/Waino/Garcia/Lohse/Miller plus that lineup(if healthy) again giant "if", they'll bang with anyone.

JohnBoy326
04-20-2012, 06:43 AM
I find this funny that so many people are saying this despite the fact that we are near the top in runs scored in the NL so far this year even after just getting done facing Halladay and Lee in a series. We still don't know how good the Giants offense is but they certainly haven't done but so far in the season where we should be automatically calling them a bad offensive team.

I think their park definitely has an effect on how people perceive their offense, as well as the past, but they added a few nice pieces, stay healthy, they'll hit enough. It probably won't be a top scoring team in the NL towards the end of the year, but all you have to do is get hot for 1 month with that pitching staff.

Yes the AL clearly is better right now and has better teams, but its one 7 game series. Cardinals clearly weren't the best team heading into the playoffs last year but they got hot and won. Playoffs are a crapshoot, I would not be surprised at all if a NL team won the series again.

Pinstripe pride
04-20-2012, 09:03 AM
I don't see the Yankees as being in the top 3 of the American League....

clearly they ar ethe best team ever. i mena the stuggled to split with the twins. if that doesnt scream awesome i dont know what does.............

bravesfan14
04-20-2012, 09:23 AM
So can you tell me how the braves offense has been questionable lately they lead the Majors in runs per game? The pitching is starting turn the corner with great outings with minor, hanson, and beachy and they get hudson back next week. Watch out people this braves team by mid season will be the hands down best team in the NL.

beldugo
04-20-2012, 10:13 AM
To repeat a point I have made recently, I absolutely believe that the World Series winner this year will absolutely be from the American League. None of this season's National League teams can hold a candle to the teams of the American League. The Phillies offense looks like **** without Utley and Howard. The Giants score no runs at all. The Braves offense and pitching has been very questionable lately. The Reds pitching again has proven to be brutal and the Cards have two pitchers who are either hurt or not performing. The only team in the NL that can see having any chance of winning the World Series is the Dodgers. With Kemp and Eithier and Kershaw, they will likely be in the race for the pennant.


are you watching baseball? how can braves offense looks questionable? leading the NL in runs per game, sure that's questionable :rolleyes:.
Also pitching has been great lately, the Braves had won 8 of last 9 games, sure i think that's questionable also :rolleyes:.

I know is very hard for the braves to keep up this pace offensivley, but Heyward looking like the star he should be, the offense should be a lot better than last year, and with Hudson coming back next week pitching will only improve, with the way Phillies are struggling right now, i can see the braves taking the division this year.

big-blue10
04-20-2012, 10:35 AM
this is a tough question. We all know the NL and AL are two different ball games. The nl is more pitcher based opposed to the hitting al. Obviously. With that being said in a, world series if nl gets home field advantage and great pitching beats great hitting. But you got to score to win. All in all there are top teams in the NL if the games played on their field

adab
04-20-2012, 11:25 AM
If I'm not mistaken, The NL won last year's AS game and the Cardinals won last year's WS and the year before the Giants won the WS.
Sure, on paper the AL is stacked, but the Cards, for one are are playing pretty good baseball as are the Dodgers.

mtf
04-20-2012, 11:34 AM
If I'm not mistaken, The NL won last year's AS game and the Cardinals won last year's WS and the year before the Giants won the WS.
Sure, on paper the AL is stacked, but the Cards, for one are are playing pretty good baseball as are the Dodgers.

Well, for one thing... let's throw out the all-star game as validation of the depth of a league. It's just silly to consider it as a determining factor.

Second, the World Series winners are great and everything, but it's not always like the best teams win (which is why it's funny that some people use it as an example of parity). Did anyone really think the Cardinals would even get through the first round last season? I certainly didn't think they were a top team. They got some good pitching at the right time of the year, but I don't think they were considered the favorites against the Phillies, Brewers or the Rangers last season.

salto
04-20-2012, 01:15 PM
Well, for one thing... let's throw out the all-star game as validation of the depth of a league. It's just silly to consider it as a determining factor.

Second, the World Series winners are great and everything, but it's not always like the best teams win (which is why it's funny that some people use it as an example of parity). Did anyone really think the Cardinals would even get through the first round last season? I certainly didn't think they were a top team. They got some good pitching at the right time of the year, but I don't think they were considered the favorites against the Phillies, Brewers or the Rangers last season.

Really? I'm thinking that in a seven game series, that the best team always wins. Isn't that the whole point?

mtf
04-20-2012, 01:43 PM
Really? I'm thinking that in a seven game series, that the best team always wins. Isn't that the whole point?

I guess it's a matter of opinion. Did you think the Cardinals were the best team in baseball last year, or the Giants the year before? I certainly didn't. They were good, but didn't really look great. They both just got some exceptional pitching at the perfect time.

Pinstripe pride
04-20-2012, 01:58 PM
Really? I'm thinking that in a seven game series, that the best team always wins. Isn't that the whole point?

its more liekly, but the best team does no always win. the hottest team normally wins

YEDN90
04-20-2012, 02:10 PM
The Washington Nationals COULD be a threat, they've been getting better each year since 2009 and have one of the better records in baseball right now. There's the potential for noise to be made there.

HickCaesar
04-20-2012, 03:15 PM
Really? I'm thinking that in a seven game series, that the best team always wins. Isn't that the whole point?

That's laughable. A 7 game series is a crap shoot, the Cardinals and Giants were not even in the top 3 teams in the league in the years they won the WS.

The AL is clearly the better league, but they were the past two years too and we got NL champions.

salto
04-20-2012, 03:36 PM
That's laughable. A 7 game series is a crap shoot, the Cardinals and Giants were not even in the top 3 teams in the league in the years they won the WS.

The AL is clearly the better league, but they were the past two years too and we got NL champions.

Your commentary is what is laughable. Are you saying that the teams with the best stats and who on-paper are the truly better teams and are some how more substantial than the team who actually win the games? Because, to me it is more evident that the team that actually won, is the better team.

mtf
04-20-2012, 04:15 PM
Your commentary is what is laughable. Are you saying that the teams with the best stats and who on-paper are the truly better teams and are some how more substantial than the team who actually win the games? Because, to me it is more evident that the team that actually won, is the better team.

Well, you may want to reconsider your argument since you're basing it on "games actually won", considering the Cardinals last year were tied for 8th in Major League Baseball in regular season wins with the Boston Red Sox (90 wins each) and the Cardinals play in one of the easiest divisions in baseball.

You're saying that the huge sample size that is the regular season doesn't accurately show which teams are best, but the 2 weeks span where they play a 7 game series shows which team is truly the best.

Playoffs are a fun conclusion to the season, but hardly a decisive way of showing which team is the best in all of baseball, which is why (to beat a dead horse again) World Series championship trophies are not indicative of true parity.

Public Enemy #1
04-20-2012, 04:21 PM
Giants had a top 5 record going into the playoffs back in 2010 so I don't understand how they weren't a team that wasn't expected to win. Pitching wins in the postseason. Giants had that and timely hitting. Haters going to hate.

long ball
04-20-2012, 04:55 PM
I hate the idea that pitching wins in the post season. The Cardinals and Rangers were two of the top 4 offenses in baseball last year while neither had a top 10 pitching staff. Teams of different make ups win the world series. There's no one way to go about it.

salto
04-20-2012, 09:41 PM
Well, you may want to reconsider your argument since you're basing it on "games actually won", considering the Cardinals last year were tied for 8th in Major League Baseball in regular season wins with the Boston Red Sox (90 wins each) and the Cardinals play in one of the easiest divisions in baseball.

You're saying that the huge sample size that is the regular season doesn't accurately show which teams are best, but the 2 weeks span where they play a 7 game series shows which team is truly the best.

Playoffs are a fun conclusion to the season, but hardly a decisive way of showing which team is the best in all of baseball, which is why (to beat a dead horse again) World Series championship trophies are not indicative of true parity.

Well apparently you were able to quote me, but are unable to discern or interpret my point. In no way did I say the entirety of the season was somehow irrelevant. The Cardinals were by no means the best team in baseball, until it counted. My point being however, that in the play-offs they were the best team in baseball, which is evidence by the trophy and banner flying over the stadium. To say they weren't the best team at that point in the season, is discounting the championships/play-offs all together. So why play them then? Hell just put Philly and whichever AL team is the favorite flavor come the end of the season and then flip a coin to name the champion.

I was never in the parity discussion.

and to get back on topic, the Cardinals, while playing with numerous injuries are one of the best teams in the National league. The Dodgers are also looking very good. However, as someone else mentioned they haven't played some of the better (on-paper) teams yet. Which also brings me back to the discussion we were having...

Many felt that the Phillies were WS bound and the best team in baseball last year. The Cardinals were the only team of all Philly opponents (in-season)that had a winning record against them. But we should discount that, because on paper, Philly was a better team? Whatever.

2-ONE-5
04-20-2012, 10:05 PM
Phillies and DBacks will prevail as the top 2 in the NL. Of course this is all pending health

CHRISDODGERS
04-20-2012, 11:29 PM
Giants had a top 5 record going into the playoffs back in 2010 so I don't understand how they weren't a team that wasn't expected to win. Pitching wins in the postseason. Giants had that and timely hitting. Haters going to hate.

Except the 50% of the time when hitting wins.

lol, please
04-20-2012, 11:58 PM
Hard to argue against the Giants. Elite pitching and a revitalized offense. Only one real contender for the division too, I can't see us out of the playoffs. But we will see.

LASportsFan1996
04-21-2012, 12:30 AM
Who Is The 1 Contender? ^

76ersai0309
04-21-2012, 12:56 AM
Hard to argue against the Giants. Elite pitching and a revitalized offense. Only one real contender for the division too, I can't see us out of the playoffs. But we will see.


:laugh:

lol, please
04-21-2012, 05:00 AM
:dance:

mtf
04-21-2012, 09:52 AM
Well apparently you were able to quote me, but are unable to discern or interpret my point. In no way did I say the entirety of the season was somehow irrelevant. The Cardinals were by no means the best team in baseball, until it counted. My point being however, that in the play-offs they were the best team in baseball, which is evidence by the trophy and banner flying over the stadium. To say they weren't the best team at that point in the season, is discounting the championships/play-offs all together. So why play them then? Hell just put Philly and whichever AL team is the favorite flavor come the end of the season and then flip a coin to name the champion.

Actually I quoted you and was able to discern and interpret (redundant much?) your point. You said that you should look at who wins the games to see who the best teams are, in reference to the playoffs without mentioning it. I addressed this and also said if you're going to make the argument that you should look at the games, perhaps you should look at the much larger sample size of games that compose the regular season. Unfortunately, you didn't like this logical rebuttal and decided to just accuse me of not comprehending your wonderful point and playoff wins always being a determining factor of which team is best.


Many felt that the Phillies were WS bound and the best team in baseball last year. The Cardinals were the only team of all Philly opponents (in-season)that had a winning record against them. But we should discount that, because on paper, Philly was a better team? Whatever.

You're again looking at a small sample size and trying to use it to disprove a large sample size. I'm not going to try to convince you that Philadelphia was the best team in the National League last year, because you simply won't accept it. I guess we're all entitled to your opinions but if you reject logical evidence to the contrary, you may as well be religious about your opinion.

xxplayerxx23
04-21-2012, 02:57 PM
i like the dodgers, Arizona the giants, and the nats, Nats are serious. There hitting is soilld, there pitching is filthy. Strazburg one of the best pitchers in the NL, gio in the nl is going to stay good, Zimmerman, jackson(I love him in the NL), and even detwiller looks good, Look out for them,

chilly
04-21-2012, 03:45 PM
I don't see any dominant team in the NL, I think it's a completely open race... If I had to choose though I would choose the Dodgers, BASED on the fact that they have the league's best pitcher (Kershaw) as well as two of the league's top 10 hitters & defensemen (Kemp & Ethier).

Other teams I can see are the Phillies & Cards, for obvious reasons of ALWAYS being in the hunt, Giants would also be a sleeper.

Offense or not, the Giants rotation is SCARY if they make the playoffs.

chilly
04-21-2012, 03:51 PM
Since we're on this topic, agree or disagree, is the NL West THE best division in baseball as far as competition goes? Or do you guys give it to the AL East still?

salto
04-21-2012, 04:02 PM
...but if you reject logical evidence to the contrary, you may as well be religious about your opinion.

I'm rejecting logical evidence? The Cardinals beat Philly in-season and then beat them in the playoffs, yet you still say that Philly was the better team. Somehow that makes you the logical one? Whatever lets you sleep at night.

J.Twiggy
04-21-2012, 04:04 PM
I will say right now it's the Dodgers but i think it will be the Phillies by the end of the year that pitching staff is just way too good.

Jeffy25
04-21-2012, 04:12 PM
I don't care if this sounds homerific.

The Cardinals are possibly the best team in the NL

The D'Backs match up pretty well, and the Brewers are not that bad.

The Phillies need to keep the offense up, but it was/has been them. But it may no longer be them. The rest of the East has good, but not great teams.

Yankee Clipper
04-21-2012, 04:18 PM
I don't care if this sounds homerific.

The Cardinals are possibly the best team in the NL

The D'Backs match up pretty well, and the Brewers are not that bad.

The Phillies need to keep the offense up, but it was/has been them. But it may no longer be them. The rest of the East has good, but not great teams.

I don't think that's a stretch to say at all. The cardinals have put together a very good team with the departure of Pujols.

TheIlladelph16
04-21-2012, 04:24 PM
Don't really know at this point, but I would say its completely wide open. It has to be the Phillies with our pitching, but only if/when Howard & Utley can come back and be productive. Our entire offensive dynamic is changed with them out and they look they struggle to hit singles without proper lineup protection.

D-Backs, Cards, Miami, Braves, Giants are all possibilities as well though right now. It is certainly wide open for anyone that can get hot at the right time.

TheIlladelph16
04-21-2012, 04:28 PM
I'm rejecting logical evidence? The Cardinals beat Philly in-season and then beat them in the playoffs, yet you still say that Philly was the better team. Somehow that makes you the logical one? Whatever lets you sleep at night.

On-paper.... The Phillies were certainly a better team than the Cardinals. We had the best pitching staff and an offense that led the NL in runs in the second half of the season. Unfortunately we got cold in September and the bats couldn't figure it out come playoff time.

The Cardinals were a great team last year though and absolutely deserved to win the WS. They got hot at the right time and played damn near perfect baseball throughout October.

NYY_NYK4
04-21-2012, 10:19 PM
does the al have a top TEAM? not teams, like you mentioned?

yes, the al has top TEAMS with the rangers and tigers. I'm not ready to put the yankees in that category. will they be a playoff team? most likely. but their starting rotation is still spotty. freddy garcia? how will he hold up? can nova be more than a one year wonder? all im saying is, yes they are good, but the consistancy in their rotation is not there.

the nl likewise has top TEAMS with the cardinals and phillies when healthy.

I agree with everything you said. Rangers and Tigers are the class of the AL. Alot of ?'s for the Yankee rotation at this point. As far as NL goes I think Philly will be there in the end.

Jenceman
04-21-2012, 10:36 PM
Who cares, all I know is Kemp has 9 friggin homers through 15 games.

Awesome.

KemMVP

Uncle Sam
04-21-2012, 10:43 PM
The Rangers and Yankees are better than every NL team. The Tigers aren't.

The tigers are due to have Martinez back in August and I would expect them to acquire another piece or two come october, and thats without mentioning Fisters going to be healthy in a few weeks and they'll have Luis Marte and Al-Al ready by mid-season. No ones going to want to play them in october. Right now though, id have to agree. Their bullpen needs to prove its worth and the rotation has questions.

LASportsFan1996
04-21-2012, 11:28 PM
Dodgers = 12-3!!
And If Kemp Doesn't Win MVP This Year, I'm Gonna Stop Watching Baseball :D

Jeffy25
04-22-2012, 06:38 AM
The tigers are due to have Martinez back in August

There is almost no way Martinez is back in August

mtf
04-22-2012, 08:42 AM
I'm rejecting logical evidence?

perhaps a little reading comprehension would help here.

i said rejecting logical evidence to the contrary, meaning contrary to your argument.

The 6-4-3
04-22-2012, 11:51 AM
As of right now Washington Nationals & Dodgers have been the best in the NL...

THINKBLUE15
04-22-2012, 03:36 PM
Not the Dodgers day today! lol

Astros scored 9 runs on 4 hits against the Dodgers (so far). :O

Jeffy25
04-22-2012, 05:02 PM
Cardinals have won every series they have played in thus far :)

bljay29
04-22-2012, 06:21 PM
Even though the NL doesn't seem to have a strong dominate team thus far means nothing, the past 2 W.S champs come from the NL

Jeffy25
04-22-2012, 06:51 PM
^ and 3 of the last 4 and 4 of the last 6

Texas Holders
04-22-2012, 09:57 PM
Well apparently you were able to quote me, but are unable to discern or interpret my point. In no way did I say the entirety of the season was somehow irrelevant. The Cardinals were by no means the best team in baseball, until it counted. My point being however, that in the play-offs they were the best team in baseball, which is evidence by the trophy and banner flying over the stadium. To say they weren't the best team at that point in the season, is discounting the championships/play-offs all together. So why play them then? Hell just put Philly and whichever AL team is the favorite flavor come the end of the season and then flip a coin to name the champion.

Actually I quoted you and was able to discern and interpret (redundant much?) your point. You said that you should look at who wins the games to see who the best teams are, in reference to the playoffs without mentioning it. I addressed this and also said if you're going to make the argument that you should look at the games, perhaps you should look at the much larger sample size of games that compose the regular season. Unfortunately, you didn't like this logical rebuttal and decided to just accuse me of not comprehending your wonderful point and playoff wins always being a determining factor of which team is best.


Many felt that the Phillies were WS bound and the best team in baseball last year. The Cardinals were the only team of all Philly opponents (in-season)that had a winning record against them. But we should discount that, because on paper, Philly was a better team? Whatever.

You're again looking at a small sample size and trying to use it to disprove a large sample size. I'm not going to try to convince you that Philadelphia was the best team in the National League last year, because you simply won't accept it. I guess we're all entitled to your opinions but if you reject logical evidence to the contrary, you may as well be religious about your opinion.

To be honest I think you are both going about this the wrong way. One suffers from small sample size while the other includes data that may not be accurate. To take a better look, look at the post trade deadline records. That way you have the teams that actually competed. The Cards were a much better team with Furcal and Jackson.

Phillies: 34-21
Cardinals: 33-21

Pretty close and turned into a close 5-game series. Using these records avoids small sample size issues and gives a better representation of how good the teams that competed in the playoffs were.

1908_Cubs
04-22-2012, 10:04 PM
How is this a debate?

It's the ****ing Cubs.

mtf
04-22-2012, 10:19 PM
To be honest I think you are both going about this the wrong way. One suffers from small sample size while the other includes data that may not be accurate. To take a better look, look at the post trade deadline records. That way you have the teams that actually competed. The Cards were a much better team with Furcal and Jackson.

Phillies: 34-21
Cardinals: 33-21

Pretty close and turned into a close 5-game series. Using these records avoids small sample size issues and gives a better representation of how good the teams that competed in the playoffs were.

My data wasn't inaccurate, you just simply used a different (and smaller) sample size. The Cardinals were a really good team, it just wasn't a great team. In an easy division, they managed to get 90 wins during the regular season, which was good for a tie for 8th in the majors. They just got timely pitching at the right time of the year and came away with the rings. There's nothing wrong with that, but they weren't exactly a juggernaut team of destiny.

Texas Holders
04-22-2012, 10:41 PM
To be honest I think you are both going about this the wrong way. One suffers from small sample size while the other includes data that may not be accurate. To take a better look, look at the post trade deadline records. That way you have the teams that actually competed. The Cards were a much better team with Furcal and Jackson.

Phillies: 34-21
Cardinals: 33-21

Pretty close and turned into a close 5-game series. Using these records avoids small sample size issues and gives a better representation of how good the teams that competed in the playoffs were.

My data wasn't inaccurate, you just simply used a different (and smaller) sample size. The Cardinals were a really good team, it just wasn't a great team. In an easy division, they managed to get 90 wins during the regular season, which was good for a tie for 8th in the majors. They just got timely pitching at the right time of the year and came away with the rings. There's nothing wrong with that, but they weren't exactly a juggernaut team of destiny.

You would have a hard time convincing me that the full 162 game schedule isn't inaccurate. Furcal and Jackson didn't play in 2/3 of it, Freese was on the DL for two months of it , the team had a losing record during that stretch. Holliday also missed time. The team was 63-41 when both were active. The Cards team last year, when healthy and with Furcal and Jackson were better than a 90-win team. Using their division as a reason is flawed as well, they were actually better against the NL East. I never said they were a juggernaut, just better than you are giving them credit for. It would be more accurate to say they got healthy at right time.

Silent
04-22-2012, 10:57 PM
How is this a debate?

It's the ****ing Cubs.



I think u read it wrong he said a good team not a ****** one

LASportsFan1996
04-23-2012, 02:18 AM
I think u read it wrong he said a good team not a ****** one

:laugh:

stupidmop
04-23-2012, 04:08 PM
Really? I'm thinking that in a seven game series, that the best team always wins. Isn't that the whole point?

You never took a statistics class in high school or college, did you?

Jeffy25
04-23-2012, 05:53 PM
You would have a hard time convincing me that the full 162 game schedule isn't inaccurate. Furcal and Jackson didn't play in 2/3 of it, Freese was on the DL for two months of it , the team had a losing record during that stretch. Holliday also missed time. The team was 63-41 when both were active. The Cards team last year, when healthy and with Furcal and Jackson were better than a 90-win team. Using their division as a reason is flawed as well, they were actually better against the NL East. I never said they were a juggernaut, just better than you are giving them credit for. It would be more accurate to say they got healthy at right time.

yep

giantspwn
04-23-2012, 08:12 PM
D-backs, Cardinals, Giants, Nationals and Phillies(when Healthy) could compete or challenge any team in the AL.

Records now are not that indicative of what divisions should look like (not even May yet).

Decent offensive output and 3 very good starters is all that matters before playoffs or a 3+ game series becomes a crap shoot.

TeamStream25
04-23-2012, 10:23 PM
Agree if Howard and Utley come back healthy, the Phils are the top team in the NL. I like what the Dodgers are doing also.

2-0-Niner
04-24-2012, 06:17 PM
The Cardinals, The D-backs and the Giants will be the Supreme Teams of the NL. Maybe I'm being a homer but this Giants Offense is no where near last years. Take into account that the Giants Lost Sandoval for a while, Posey the Whole year, and Freddy half the Year, If all of those three stayed Healthy we'd have won the Wild Card or even the Division. Shoulda, Coulda, Woulda.

The Cards have A Great Balance, Bullpen is Ok nothing great

The D-backs also Great Balance, a Few Injuries away from being average or below average. Good Pitching, Decent Bullpen

The Giants, Cream of the Crop Rotation, Great Bullpen, and a Revitalized Offense. If the Giants can Score 4 Runs a year, which This years team is capable of, They will be a scary team, Timmy struggling, IS OUR 4TH OR 5TH best Pitcher, that is scary. Can you imagine when he gets it together?

The Nats are a sleeper, Brewers will hang in there, Can't count the Marlins out, Look at their line-up, If pitching can stay healthy watch out!

1908_Cubs
04-24-2012, 08:34 PM
I think u read it wrong he said a good team not a ****** one

How many other little league teams do you know who are in the MLB? Hmmm? None?

Well then I think we should be a little less condescending of the Cubs. They've come a long way. I don't think there's another little league team in the country capable of doing as well as this Cubs team has done on the young season.

Jeffy25
04-24-2012, 09:35 PM
@1908

Think Soto gets traded before the deadline?

1908_Cubs
04-24-2012, 10:37 PM
@1908

Think Soto gets traded before the deadline?

The only question is does anyone want his worthless dumb ***. He's awful this year. He can't hit.

I'd say very much yes. It may be the PCL, but Wellington Castillo is 5th in the league in OPS on the early season. It'll be his time. On top of it, Steve Clevanger, new backup C, is hitting like, .600 with 4 doubles in spot duty.

Worst case he's a Ramon Castro esque C. Should hit for power, just have to wonder about BA/OBP. Sucks, Soto may have gotten us something decent/nice. Instead, he's just been putrid.

BradfordIsElite
04-25-2012, 11:48 AM
I'd say the Cardinals deserve the recognition as the top team in the NL. They are the defending champs, and although it's early, they've shown at the very least, they're capable of putting together a strong season without Mr. Pujols.

Also, they are still without one of their aces in Chris Carpenter. As of right now their starting rotation has a combined record of 10-4 with an era in the mid 3's and that's including arguably their best pitcher in Adam Wainwright who has just returned from Tommy John surgery. In 4 starts he is 0-3 with a 7.42 era, however, last night in a no decision hurled in 6 inning 6hits 7ks and 1er given' up. Very big sigh' of relief.
Once Carpenter returns, we'll have a rotation consisting of Carpenter, Lohse, Garcia, Lynn, Westbrook and Wainwright. (arguably the best in the game)

To go along with a rejuvinated/healthy Furcal, Beltran, Holliday, Freese, Berkman and Molina, who are atop the NL in overall batting. And also Allen Craig who has yet to return from the DL.

I'd say the Phillies, Braves and Dodgers have the best chance at catching them or at least being in contention alongside for the NL title.

leftymo
04-25-2012, 01:53 PM
I'd say the Cardinals deserve the recognition as the top team in the NL. They are the defending champs, and although it's early, they've shown at the very least, they're capable of putting together a strong season without Mr. Pujols.

Also, they are still without one of their aces in Chris Carpenter. As of right now their starting rotation has a combined record of 10-4 with an era in the mid 3's and that's including arguably their best pitcher in Adam Wainwright who has just returned from Tommy John surgery. In 4 starts he is 0-3 with a 7.42 era, however, last night in a no decision hurled in 6 inning 6hits 7ks and 1er given' up. Very big sigh' of relief.
Once Carpenter returns, we'll have a rotation consisting of Carpenter, Lohse, Garcia, Lynn, Westbrook and Wainwright. (arguably the best in the game)

To go along with a rejuvinated/healthy Furcal, Beltran, Holliday, Freese, Berkman and Molina, who are atop the NL in overall batting. And also Allen Craig who has yet to return from the DL.

I'd say the Phillies, Braves and Dodgers have the best chance at catching them or at least being in contention alongside for the NL title.

This post looks like it's one year old. The Dodgers haven't faced anybody yet, and their pitching won't last. They've faced the Pads twice, Astros, and Pirates. The only team they faced that's legit was the Brewers and they lost that series. They'll come back to earth. The phillies look terrible to start the year. They can't hit, and their pitching isn't as strong as last year. Braves should be good.

Last year the best staff in baseball was the Phillies, a close 2nd was the giants. The Giants were the ONLY team in all of baseball to boast 4 starters in the top 11 ERA leaders in their respective league. The 5th guy is a former Cy Young award winner Barry Zito who happens to have the BEST ERA on that staff this early in the season.

leftymo
04-25-2012, 01:57 PM
As for the topic of the thread, I do agree that the cards are probably the #1 team. They have a weird ability to get players that are finished and revive them for a career year. Whether it's Berkman, or Beltran, or Will Clark!

I do think that many AL teams are vastly overrated, but not the Rangers. This includes the Yankees, Rays, Sox, and Tigers. The NL has won the last two series, so they have to be doing something right.

Washington is looking real good. NL West has 2-3 teams that are good enough.

Porka
04-25-2012, 02:21 PM
I don't see the Yankees as being in the top 3 of the American League....

Really? Please explain yourself.

adab
04-26-2012, 11:40 AM
Well, for one thing... let's throw out the all-star game as validation of the depth of a league. It's just silly to consider it as a determining factor.

Second, the World Series winners are great and everything, but it's not always like the best teams win (which is why it's funny that some people use it as an example of parity). Did anyone really think the Cardinals would even get through the first round last season? I certainly didn't think they were a top team. They got some good pitching at the right time of the year, but I don't think they were considered the favorites against the Phillies, Brewers or the Rangers last season.

I agree that not always the best teams win the WS, but to arbitrarily dismiss the entire NL as inferior the AL is ridiculous. There are a number of very good teams in the NL who, in my opinion, are as good as any top rated teams in the AL.
Phillie is hurt and old, but when you have a rotation like theirs, I'd take that team against any AL team on any given day. The Giants also have a scary staff. The Cards actually look better than last year and the top offensive team this year, so far, is the Braves. By the way check out the Natioanls' ERA while your at it.
So to summarily dismiss the NL teams is silly.

adab
04-26-2012, 11:46 AM
Really? Please explain yourself.

While I did not post this, I can easily explain the Yankees not being a top 3 team.
1. Tampa Bay
2. Texas Rangers
3. Detroit Tigers.
Also, The Yankees rotation is a joke after CC Sabathia and Ivan Nova. The only hope is a coming-out-of-retirement Andy Pettitte.