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View Full Version : 14 Time All Star Catcher Pudge Rodriguez to retire



SportsAndrew25
04-18-2012, 06:23 PM
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/18/14-time-all-star-ivan-rodriguez-to-announce-retirement/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

A great player and a sure hall of famer. Just a crazy day all around.

1908_Cubs
04-18-2012, 06:24 PM
Crazy day but I'd put this in the category of "least crazy".

40 year old catcher who hadn't logged an AB all season. Kind of to be expected.

Probably for the best at this point. Had a great career.

LASportsFan1996
04-18-2012, 06:27 PM
Hall Of Famer. Great Career Pudge!

AI
04-18-2012, 06:29 PM
Hall of Famer, what else can be said? He was a beast.

NYYrdbest
04-18-2012, 06:32 PM
Great career, 3rd best catcher of all times, for sure 1st time ballot HOF

1903
04-18-2012, 06:37 PM
Should go in with a Yankees cap.

ManningToTyree
04-18-2012, 06:42 PM
Should go in with a Yankees cap.

I'm assuming you are kidding.

It is about time Pudge.

Pujolsfan91
04-18-2012, 06:49 PM
What a great career he had. Definitely a HOF'er.

You will be missed Pudge!

MooseWithFleas
04-18-2012, 06:50 PM
Jamie Moyer outlasts another. Nice career Pudge, enjoy the Hall Call in a few years!

stipe1280
04-18-2012, 07:03 PM
Pudge...my favorite player of all time. I remember watching him as a 19 year old catcher here in Arlington. Guess I'm getting old.

bljay29
04-18-2012, 07:17 PM
Pudge was an amazing catcher, HOF next stop!!

Shamrock
04-18-2012, 07:19 PM
Pudge had a huge career. Next stop H.O.F.

TheDetroitBlue
04-18-2012, 10:33 PM
:clap:

LionsFan..LOL
04-18-2012, 10:35 PM
Great career. Thanks for everything done in Detroit Pudge! :clap:

whitesoxfan83
04-18-2012, 11:00 PM
Ill always remember him as a Marlin... that 03 postseason was something magical for him, he carried that team.

Young2Kinsler
04-18-2012, 11:04 PM
Best Texas Ranger ever. I put him as the best catcher ever. I know some will disagree, but he changed the position.

Jeffy25
04-18-2012, 11:06 PM
:(

utl768
04-19-2012, 02:09 AM
he was severly overrated and was a blatant abuser of roids

throw him in the pack with clemens bonds sosa and mcgwire

Jeffy25
04-19-2012, 06:02 AM
Clearly a hall of famer, one of the best catchers of all time, both offensively and defensively.

He isn't Bench good, but he is pretty damn close in the end.

I would say 2nd to 4th best catcher of all time, and he might be the best defensive catcher of all time.

Jeffy25
04-19-2012, 06:04 AM
Jamie Moyer outlasts another. Nice career Pudge, enjoy the Hall Call in a few years!

And Moyer started half a decade earlier.

thawv
04-19-2012, 07:43 AM
The steroid issue is still hanging over his head. It's no secret he was juicing. There are tell tale signs that smarter voters won't overlook. His peak numbers are during the steroid era, his weight gain/loss, and the fact that Canseco claimed to inject Pudge himself. Say what you want about Canseco. But the fact still remains, that everything he said is true.

Pinstripe pride
04-19-2012, 09:12 AM
Thanks for everything pudge. Enjoy your road to the HOF

bagwell368
04-19-2012, 09:24 AM
Oh.... sorry but Pudge is overrated.

His vaunted throwing was largely a byproduct of calling for fastballs with men on 1B and 2nd open. Some (most?) of his pitchers hated him for it, and commented on it - in very sour terms.

He was a fine hitter in his best years, a decent but not great caller, a great catcher early on in hopping around the field to catch pops and bunts, and he had a cannon aided by the constant FB calls. A great and a HOF for sure - however in my time Bench and Carter were certainly better all around.

es0terik
04-19-2012, 10:47 AM
Oh.... sorry but Pudge is overrated.

His vaunted throwing was largely a byproduct of calling for fastballs with men on 1B and 2nd open. Some (most?) of his pitchers hated him for it, and commented on it - in very sour terms.

He was a fine hitter in his best years, a decent but not great caller, a great catcher early on in hopping around the field to catch pops and bunts, and he had a cannon aided by the constant FB calls. A great and a HOF for sure - however in my time Bench and Carter were certainly better all around.

What the hell? If you admit he's a hall of famer then how can he be over-rated at the same time? :facepalm:

Algmuskrats
04-19-2012, 11:26 AM
HOFer easily.

bagwell368
04-19-2012, 02:43 PM
What the hell? If you admit he's a hall of famer then how can he be over-rated at the same time?

A poster or two have labeled him the greatest catcher of all time - which he's not. He might be say #9 (and that's not a rating, I haven't had time to think about it). So that makes him overrated AND in the HOF at the same time.

You often seem to have good posts, why you don't understand the nuance around the word and concept of overrated - I can't say.

thawv
04-19-2012, 03:11 PM
What the hell? If you admit he's a hall of famer then how can he be over-rated at the same time? :facepalm:

Since when can't a player be both over rated, and a HOF'er?

Nick O
04-19-2012, 05:56 PM
really wanted to see a catcher hit 3000 /: .. oh well great career! one of the best

whitesoxfan83
04-19-2012, 06:07 PM
When he does get into the hall, and it's proven he was a juicer after that fact, you pretty much have to let the other cheaters in as well...

Rain City
04-19-2012, 06:38 PM
I agree with most of the comments, pudge had a legendary career, played it the right way between the lines, one of the greatest catchers ever, easy guy to root for.

BUT, there is a lot of evidence that points to steroid usage. I dont really like how they will witch hunt some guys till death and others get a free pass.

es0terik
04-19-2012, 06:52 PM
A poster or two have labeled him the greatest catcher of all time - which he's not. He might be say #9 (and that's not a rating, I haven't had time to think about it). So that makes him overrated AND in the HOF at the same time.

You often seem to have good posts, why you don't understand the nuance around the word and concept of overrated - I can't say.

What I mean is that I don't think the ignorant opinion of a select few warrants the "overrated" accusation. Overrated-ness usually comes down to the opinion of a majority. The majority of us here think he is one of the best catchers of all time and that he is HOF-bound. That isn't overrating him, it's acknowledging exactly what he is. Nobody (at least not many) think he is the absolute best catcher of all time. When I think of the word overrated I think of names like Pete Rose, Roger Maris and Ozzie Guillen.

Jeffy25
04-19-2012, 07:40 PM
What the hell? If you admit he's a hall of famer then how can he be over-rated at the same time? :facepalm:

Jeter is over-rated, but he is also a hall of famer.

Not that there are different tiers of hall of famers, but there are guys that are more borderline than others.

I don't necessarily agree with Bagwell here (I don't know about the fastball calls, but even if true that seems a bit extreme to explain why he saved over 160 runs on defense by himself), but he is basically saying Pudge isn't the best catcher of all time, he can still be a hall of famer.

RTL
04-19-2012, 08:25 PM
The word "overrated" is overused on this site.

bagwell368
04-19-2012, 08:54 PM
What I mean is that I don't think the ignorant opinion of a select few warrants the "overrated" accusation.

Do you mean the pitchers that complained about his fastball fetish with guys on first base? They are ignorant?


Overrated-ness usually comes down to the opinion of a majority. The majority of us here think he is one of the best catchers of all time and that he is HOF-bound.

And the majority of the posters here don't have direct knowledge of the instances I am referring too. For the sake of his all mighty popularity I should according to you keep quiet? I never said he isn't HOF bound.


it's acknowledging exactly what he is.

Yes, that's just what I am doing.


Nobody (at least not many) think he is the absolute best catcher of all time. When I think of the word overrated I think of names like Pete Rose, Roger Maris and Ozzie Guillen.

Obviously over rated is in the eye of the beholder. I am able to grant you your list of overrated players, yet you cannot do the same. Interesting.

bagwell368
04-19-2012, 09:01 PM
I don't necessarily agree with Bagwell here (I don't know about the fastball calls, but even if true that seems a bit extreme to explain why he saved over 160 runs on defense by himself), but he is basically saying Pudge isn't the best catcher of all time, he can still be a hall of famer.

This is where you go off the rails w/ the stats my friend.

If a pitcher is more apt to yield a hit because the hitter is expecting a fastball and gets it, it is not subtracted from Pudge's defensive stats. But if Pudge gets his CS% to go up say 15% on average per year due to this strategy he gets credit for it, does he not?

As a former pitching coach and long time fan I find that sort of strategy to be troublesome at best, and downright hurtful to the team and potentially pitcher at worst.

Jeffy25
04-19-2012, 10:17 PM
This is where you go off the rails w/ the stats my friend.

If a pitcher is more apt to yield a hit because the hitter is expecting a fastball and gets it, it is not subtracted from Pudge's defensive stats. But if Pudge gets his CS% to go up say 15% on average per year due to this strategy he gets credit for it, does he not?

As a former pitching coach and long time fan I find that sort of strategy to be troublesome at best, and downright hurtful to the team and potentially pitcher at worst.

No other catcher is anywhere close to Pudge defensively all time (Pudge 165 runs, Jim Sundberg at 115, then Gary Carter next at 112)

That's a pretty big difference, and I doubt he is the only catcher to ask for fastballs when there was a threat for stolen bases, and even if he did call it, he managed to erase 661 base runners in his career, that isn't anywhere close to number 1. That isn't why Pudge saved so many runs in his carer (Carter threw out more base runners for example).

He called good games, was a famous 'framer' who actually got more borderline calls for his pitchers than the league average almost every year, and he did a fantastic job of saving wild pitches and didn't give up many passed balls.

I didn't say anything about Pudge being a great catcher because of his caught stealing, it's a number of things he did. He was a great defensive catcher by basically every single standard we can use to quantify the position. If he called a few too many fastballs to his pitchers liking, that's possible, but it wouldn't negate him being far and away better than everyone else by a good margin. He did a lot of other things very well.

BlondeBomber41
04-19-2012, 10:20 PM
This is where you go off the rails w/ the stats my friend.

If a pitcher is more apt to yield a hit because the hitter is expecting a fastball and gets it, it is not subtracted from Pudge's defensive stats. But if Pudge gets his CS% to go up say 15% on average per year due to this strategy he gets credit for it, does he not?

As a former pitching coach and long time fan I find that sort of strategy to be troublesome at best, and downright hurtful to the team and potentially pitcher at worst.

Grew up in Arlington, been a Rangers fan and watched Pudge his entire career here in Arlington and yet have never heard of this.... if it was as big of a deal as you want to make it, it would of been more of a story. Seeing that I've NEVER heard it mentioned, I imagine you're nitpicking.

2-ONE-5
04-19-2012, 10:33 PM
shame no one will sign him. just 166 hits from 3,000. easily a Hall of Famer and arguably the best catcher or all time

utl768
04-19-2012, 11:54 PM
he was a good player for about 10 years but i wouldnt vote for him in the HOF

standards are so low though that he will probably get in

BlondeBomber41
04-20-2012, 01:27 AM
he was a good player for about 10 years but i wouldnt vote for him in the HOF

standards are so low though that he will probably get in

:facepalm:

harlequin018
04-20-2012, 01:55 AM
Best all around catcher of all time. Offensively, Gary Carter and Johnny Bench are even or maybe slightly ahead because of their peak seasons, but no catcher was as good defensively. A lock for the hall of fame.

es0terik
04-20-2012, 11:12 AM
Do you mean the pitchers that complained about his fastball fetish with guys on first base? They are ignorant?



And the majority of the posters here don't have direct knowledge of the instances I am referring too. For the sake of his all mighty popularity I should according to you keep quiet? I never said he isn't HOF bound.



Yes, that's just what I am doing.



Obviously over rated is in the eye of the beholder. I am able to grant you your list of overrated players, yet you cannot do the same. Interesting.

You clearly understood none of my post so I'm not going to continue with this.

todu82
04-20-2012, 11:40 AM
Tremendous career, definitely a Hall of Famer and a top 5 catcher of all time.

bagwell368
04-21-2012, 07:54 AM
No other catcher is anywhere close to Pudge defensively all time (Pudge 165 runs, Jim Sundberg at 115, then Gary Carter next at 112)

#1. What the runs saved per game vs the other top guys?

#2. What about the runs he gained by putting the pitchers ERA at risk? Just because it helped his bottom line, it may have hurt the teams chances?


That's a pretty big difference, and I doubt he is the only catcher to ask for fastballs when there was a threat for stolen bases

And ignore being shook off constantly?


and even if he did call it, he managed to erase 661 base runners in his career, that isn't anywhere close to number 1. That isn't why Pudge saved so many runs in his carer (Carter threw out more base runners for example).

Did it hurt him? What about his game calling, even his supporters don't claim he was a great at that? Even at catcher BTW as you know offense is more important than defense for WAR purposes if nothing else. How's he stack up there peak vs other top catchers?


He called good games, was a famous 'framer' who actually got more borderline calls for his pitchers than the league average almost every year, and he did a fantastic job of saving wild pitches and didn't give up many passed balls.

Good at wild pitches and framing, not so great on calling games - at least not exceptional.


I didn't say anything about Pudge being a great catcher because of his caught stealing

I wasn't addressing you alone


it's a number of things he did. He was a great defensive catcher by basically every single standard we can use to quantify the position. If he called a few too many fastballs to his pitchers liking

It was a lot more then a few. If it was a few why did multiple pitchers from different teams complain about it?


but it wouldn't negate him being far and away better than everyone else by a good margin. He did a lot of other things very well.

But it dings his overall value. HOF? Certainly. Top of the pile? No.

bagwell368
04-21-2012, 07:55 AM
You clearly understood none of my post so I'm not going to continue with this.

The start of my post was coy since you seemed to be less then cordial in your post. Funny you should talk about not understanding your post when you totally went off the deep end about HOF & overrated being able to co-exists.

Your loss if you don't/can't continue a debate with someone on a serious topic.

Try tiddlywinks.

Yankee Clipper
04-21-2012, 10:09 AM
Tremendous career, definitely a Hall of Famer and a top 5 catcher of all time.

:nod:

Jeffy25
04-21-2012, 03:33 PM
#1. What the runs saved per game vs the other top guys?

#2. What about the runs he gained by putting the pitchers ERA at risk? Just because it helped his bottom line, it may have hurt the teams chances?



And ignore being shook off constantly?



Did it hurt him? What about his game calling, even his supporters don't claim he was a great at that? Even at catcher BTW as you know offense is more important than defense for WAR purposes if nothing else. How's he stack up there peak vs other top catchers?



Good at wild pitches and framing, not so great on calling games - at least not exceptional.



I wasn't addressing you alone



It was a lot more then a few. If it was a few why did multiple pitchers from different teams complain about it?



But it dings his overall value. HOF? Certainly. Top of the pile? No.

Sorry Bags, but Pudge is awesome defensively. A few pitchers complaining about game calling because there is a stolen base threat isn't enough to knock a guy that is 25% better than everybody else defensively.

Maybe that would be enough to make him as good as Carter defensively. Maybe. And that seems like too much.

It's not enough to cost him his huge advantage over everybody else.

es0terik
04-22-2012, 12:14 AM
The start of my post was coy since you seemed to be less then cordial in your post. Funny you should talk about not understanding your post when you totally went off the deep end about HOF & overrated being able to co-exists.

Your loss if you don't/can't continue a debate with someone on a serious topic.

Try tiddlywinks.

You didn't understand my post.

And if you're going to get bitter that I'm not ready to sit here and waste time with you then I should just tell you this: there's a difference between getting into a meaningful and fruitful debate with someone who is actually going to be into it and will debate in good faith and then getting into a debate with someone who stubbornly sticks to their opinion regardless of what is presented to them. That kind of debate is no fun and I don't want to take part in one. I seem to remember you going on page after page of posts last year trying to argue that Adrian Gonzalez was a better hitter than Jose Bautista and when enough evidence and numbers were presented to you to prove otherwise, you stopped posting on the topic and left the thread. I don't like to consciously get into a debate that at the end of the day will do nothing but waste my time. I'm not going to be sorry about it because contrary to what you stated, it is not in fact my "loss".

bagwell368
04-23-2012, 10:10 AM
You didn't understand my post.

And if you're going to get bitter that I'm not ready to sit here and waste time with you then I should just tell you this: there's a difference between getting into a meaningful and fruitful debate with someone who is actually going to be into it and will debate in good faith and then getting into a debate with someone who stubbornly sticks to their opinion regardless of what is presented to them. That kind of debate is no fun and I don't want to take part in one. I seem to remember you going on page after page of posts last year trying to argue that Adrian Gonzalez was a better hitter than Jose Bautista and when enough evidence and numbers were presented to you to prove otherwise, you stopped posting on the topic and left the thread. I don't like to consciously get into a debate that at the end of the day will do nothing but waste my time. I'm not going to be sorry about it because contrary to what you stated, it is not in fact my "loss".

I'm a retired pitching coach, so yes it probably bothers me more then the run of the mill fan on PSD what I read about Rodriguez re: his pitchers. Does it mean he's not a HOF? No, he clearly is. Does it mean that some of this numbers may be overstated since as the Captain of the battery he put his pitchers and team into position to lose runs and games more often then they would if he had called the game to maximize outs for the team and not just himself - unquestionably. Obviously in general catchers call more fastballs w/ runners on 1B and 2B open, but in general isn't the same as "all the time" which I heard/read two different SP's from two different era's of his career saying the same thing.

If you are able to "knight" Rodriquez - in your own mind go for it. If you find what I write to be cognitive dissonance that disturbs your ability to do so - that's on you. Don't blame me for it. I said what I had to say.

Thanks for bringing up Agon. I got a lot of grief over those AG threads last year. I parsed them very carefully a few months later after everything had died down and came to the conclusion that I had been insulted far more then I had returned. Funny about subjective memories. They tend to do that. Just count up how many of my posts were deleted vs those of the Jays fans. Unh Hunh. Then read what is left. BTW there were 4 specific threads - not one, and I didn't leave because I was chased, but because it was worth waiting until the end of the season to see (as I said all along at the beginning) if this historic Bautista start (his MO the last two years) would continue. People got negative with me, and as I will do I spit it right back at them - but using facts with some snark vs the bitter personal attacks that were leveled at me at times (not by you). Ellsbury almost wrested the MVP away from him as I recall. So all the fans that said I was this and that because bautista was having an historic year hung on at the end for dear life. So they were more wrong "you're an idiot if you think anyone but bautista is going to win the MVP". Crawford makes the catch, and then what?

Wrigheyes4MVP
04-23-2012, 11:03 AM
Best all around catcher of all time. Offensively, Gary Carter and Johnny Bench are even or maybe slightly ahead because of their peak seasons, but no catcher was as good defensively. A lock for the hall of fame.

Mike Piazza was easily the best offensive catcher of all time, and I could make the argument that despite his awful arm...that he was the best catcher of all time.

I mean, I'll take his career .920 OPS...and his 1.000 OPS in his prime years at the catcher position in spite of his bad arm.

Thats just my opinion though.