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View Full Version : Is it Time to Start Mathis and Sit JP?



passengershawn
04-14-2012, 07:17 PM
I know it's the first week of the season, but man does J.P. look awful...both offensively and defensively. I'm wondering if it's time to sit JP for a week and let Mathis start...he can't do any worse with the bat, and at least Mathis calls a great game and is a defensive gem.

With Travis D'Arnaud waiting in AAA, if you could get a decent return for JP, is now the time to trade him after a 25 HR rookie season?

Thoughts?

Rogi10
04-14-2012, 07:35 PM
Mathis is not a defensive gem, and will be even worse than JPA with the bat.

rapsjaysfan88
04-14-2012, 07:44 PM
ha horrible/******** thread. also jp has been fine defensively.

Kelly Gruber
04-14-2012, 07:47 PM
JP has been terrible at the dish and needs a lot of work w the glove. I wouldn't mind starting Mathis a bit more...

AA09-?
04-14-2012, 08:12 PM
No, it will never be that time

DeRozan10
04-14-2012, 08:47 PM
Call up d'Arnaud

JermanJaysFan
04-14-2012, 09:17 PM
I'd probably still be calling this premature a month from now.

JPA has more offensive talent in his little finger than Mathis could ever dream of having. Sure he's scuffling now, but god damn. We're not even 10 games in.

And yeah, he's made a few unfortunabute plays defensively, but by and large I think we've seen a bit of improvement defensively, haven't we?

pacman16
04-14-2012, 09:30 PM
JP has been pretty solid behind the plate, everyone's just remembering the one game with 2 pass balls and joses ****** throw to try and get the runner at home.

He's a young growing catcher who has shown power. hes the number 8/9 hitter on this team. jays fans are acting like leafs fan in regards to their young talent.
he's never going to have a real nice average, get use to his slumps when the power isn't there.

Farsight
04-14-2012, 09:36 PM
I think JPA has become better at receiving the ball, however, i still think he calls a bad game. He seems to have a good rapport with the starters, but when the bullpen comes in... its a different story

mtf
04-14-2012, 09:42 PM
It's not a secret that Arencibia is keeping the position warm for D'Arnaud. (unless Anthopoulos manages to swing a deal for someone amazing like Felix Hernandez where they're forced to throw D'Arnaud into it)

Until then, he'll just be getting some practice in and try to find some consistency and drive up his value. Mathis is the Ben Francisco of catchers, he's riding the bench.

DeRozan10
04-14-2012, 09:57 PM
Traaaaaaaaaaaaaavis

d'Aaaaaaaaaarnaud

Krylian
04-14-2012, 10:30 PM
If the ideal plan is to promote d'Arnaud for next year and trade JPA then what's the point of not letting him work through it. He has marginal value as it is...might as well let him play and see if he can figure it out.

People are way to trigger happy and want to throw hand grenades around a week into the year.

ah nuts
04-14-2012, 11:42 PM
i really thought he would be a 8th/9th replacement for many games. but i also could see why not.

Sanyo
04-15-2012, 12:27 AM
Simple answer? No!

Jays Claw
04-15-2012, 01:32 AM
There really won't be much improvement in starting Mathis over Arencibia. They both suck offensively, and are well below average defensively (which means Mathis isn't the defensive wizard everyone for some reason thinks he is).

wamco
04-15-2012, 01:50 AM
he clearly needs a rest though

BlueJayFanDan
04-15-2012, 09:28 AM
Our current situation makes me miss the short amount of time we had Mike Napoli :(.

Valleyfella
04-15-2012, 10:05 AM
Bench him? They've played 8 games.

Mendoza Line
04-15-2012, 10:07 AM
JPA's going to be our guy this year, all year. When D'Arnaud is ready I figure it's going to be a nice problem to have. D'Arnaud isn't lighting it up so far, and as mentioned earlier the PCL is a hitter friendly league. Give them both time..

AA09-?
04-15-2012, 10:10 AM
D'Arnaud, if healthy, will most likely arrive in T.O. later this year. Not yet tho

Jamiecballer
04-15-2012, 11:16 AM
too early. the whole team has struggled offensively.

1hardcore
04-15-2012, 11:35 AM
Mathis is starting today to catch Drabek, unless i'm looking the wrong thing

LuckyLuke2
04-15-2012, 11:40 AM
Call up d'Arnaud

Not yet. He himself has yet to become hot with the bat he needs more then a week in AAA.

I would start Mathis for a few games. Arencibia looks horrible.

.74 avg? Please.

LuckyLuke2
04-15-2012, 11:40 AM
D'Arnaud, if healthy, will most likely arrive in T.O. later this year. Not yet tho

Yeah agreed. He won't be up any time soon.

In a totally different note Snider is on fire in AAA.

the_jon
04-15-2012, 11:57 AM
LOL at whoever said Mathis was a "defensive wizard". Just because a guy can't hit the ball off a tee doesn't mean he's a good defensive catcher

passengershawn
04-15-2012, 01:14 PM
LOL at whoever said Mathis was a "defensive wizard". Just because a guy can't hit the ball off a tee doesn't mean he's a good defensive catcher

I'm just going by the reports from the 'experts' who raved about his defense/blocking the ball, as well as his game-calling ability. It seems the Angels pitchers (particularly Weaver and Haren) had very good things to say about Mathis. He does suck with the bat, and has an average+ arm...but the Jays might need a veteran guy who can call a better game than JP, at least giving him 2 out-of-6 games.

boilerguy2412
04-15-2012, 01:27 PM
JP will be fine, maybe giving him some time off would help, i have no worry that JP will find his game, he's to good not too.

MrForever
04-15-2012, 08:25 PM
Should we also sit Jose Bautista and roll with Ben Fransisco..?

Terrible thread.

Give him time.

Toxeryll
04-15-2012, 09:21 PM
Mathis = .500 AVG
JPA = .071 AVG

seriously though its too early

/thread

koreancabbage
04-15-2012, 11:26 PM
to be fair, Arencibia has pretty much sucked at hitting consistently and has a below average bat. sure he will hit 20 homeruns, but it means squat if he's just average to below average at everything else. He has yet to impress any bit.

remember Mathis was highly touted no, once before? He's cheap and he has something to prove.

ah nuts
04-16-2012, 12:13 AM
to be fair, Arencibia has pretty much sucked at hitting consistently and has a below average bat. sure he will hit 20 homeruns, but it means squat if he's just average to below average at everything else. He has yet to impress any bit.

remember Mathis was highly touted no, once before? He's cheap and he has something to prove.

^^^ he's right, JPA(love him) never proved much yet
i don't want to say it, but, will JPA be last years Cecil?

but yeah, too early

2009mvp
04-16-2012, 02:13 AM
I'm not sure if everyone realizes how bad Mathis is offensively. We're talking about a guy with a career OPS 48 points lower than that of John freakin McDonald. I don't care how great you think he is defensively that bat is simply unplayable.

JermanJaysFan
04-16-2012, 03:05 AM
I'm not sure if everyone realizes how bad Mathis is offensively. We're talking about a guy with a career OPS 48 points lower than that of John freakin McDonald. I don't care how great you think he is defensively that bat is simply unplayable.
No kidding.

Last year, the AL-wide average OPS for catchers was .696. JPA was a solid 24 points over this at .720, while Mathis was a hilarious 212 points below at .484.

Defensive metrics don't love Mathis as much as the hearsay we get out of Anaheim about his work with pitchers. Defensive metrics in general don't do an excellent job of capturing defensive impact in catchers, and I think Mathis in particular might be kind of underrated by the numbers in this regard. But regardless, with a bat as bad as his, you really can't be running him out there more than the bare minimum.

NOLES
04-16-2012, 03:42 AM
Mathis is not a defensive gem, and will be even worse than JPA with the bat.

Really? I don't think anyone said "gem", but that is what he is known for.. his defense.

Mathis has never really gotten a shot too play a lot, who knows what he could do? You have Darnaud who is younger than JP and has more upside.I think it's still early to bring him up though and too early to give up on JP.

NOLES
04-16-2012, 03:43 AM
I'm not sure if everyone realizes how bad Mathis is offensively. We're talking about a guy with a career OPS 48 points lower than that of John freakin McDonald. I don't care how great you think he is defensively that bat is simply unplayable.

Bautista was "bad" also.

2009mvp
04-16-2012, 03:45 AM
No kidding.

Last year, the AL-wide average OPS for catchers was .696. JPA was a solid 24 points over this at .720, while Mathis was a hilarious 212 points below at .484.

Defensive metrics don't love Mathis as much as the hearsay we get out of Anaheim about his work with pitchers. Defensive metrics in general don't do an excellent job of capturing defensive impact in catchers, and I think Mathis in particular might be kind of underrated by the numbers in this regard. But regardless, with a bat as bad as his, you really can't be running him out there more than the bare minimum.

Yup, you watch him and you can see why from a scouting perspective he grades out as above average defensively. I'd feel comfortable calling him above average at this point which probably makes him a passable backup (barely), but starting him is out of the question. Funny that in 2011 he was actually closer to the average OPS of all pitchers (.357) than he was to the average catcher. He really is beyond terrible offensively.


Really? I don't think anyone said "gem", but that is what he is known for.. his defense.

Mathis has never really gotten a shot too play a lot, who knows what he could do? You have Darnaud who is younger than JP and has more upside.I think it's still early to bring him up though and too early to give up on JP.

Well that's just not true. He's been the 'starter' in Anaheim for the better part of the last 4 years, the only reason he hadn't gotten more AB's is because even his biggest supporter in Scioscia had to acknowledge how awful he is offensively. I don't even know how this is up for debate, he's quite probably the worst hitting position player in baseball.


Bautista was "bad" also.

:laugh2: Seriously? When Bautista was 'bad' he was more or less league average offensively. As it's been pointed out, Mathis is much, much closer to the league average pitcher than he is to an average position player offensively.

Also, let's try and remember just how rare a career path like Bautista's is, even going back over hundreds of years of baseball. It's just so intellectually lazy to go to that well every time someone wants to defend a ****** player.

Halladay
04-16-2012, 04:26 AM
There is absolutely no way you could argue that Mathis should be a starter. Hell, it's a head scratcher that the guy has even been in the league as long as he has. Johan Santana is only a little over 100 points back in his career OPS. JOHAN SANTANA. Mathis is on the same level as pitchers with his bat. That my friends is brutal. JP is a major league starter, Mathis is lucky he's not in AA.

Twitchy
04-16-2012, 06:44 AM
If you go by wOBA Mathis is the 8th worst hitting position player since the 1970's. Arencibia's a below average starting C but he's still better than Mathis.

wamco
04-16-2012, 07:55 AM
most abs this year, JPA would have been worth more to the team by just standing there and taking 3 called strikes.

KaiserSose
04-16-2012, 09:54 AM
Of course JPA is terrible, but this is nothing new. He was arguably the worst full time major league catcher and batted 0.219

If anything he will likely regress back towards that average. He will be on the bench as soon as D'Arnaud is ready!

mike_noodles
04-16-2012, 11:33 AM
I think some people aren't watching much of the games or paying much attention. I think JP's defense is leaps and bounds better than last year, especially with keeping pitches in front of him that are in the dirt. His bat will get better for sure, and no matter how you look at it, his bat can't be worse than Mathis'.

darth helmet
04-16-2012, 12:01 PM
If every team had the your frame of mind and just started dumping players that have a slow start then we'd see Pujols, Bautista, Cano, Youkilis, Teixiera, and Lincecum all being sent packing.

Ragin' Cajun
04-16-2012, 12:06 PM
I have watched a good 5-6 games so far and not the one where people seem to be getting all these ideas to trade and bench JPA. He has saved 3 or 4 bad potential passed balls and looked great behind the plate IMO. Sure he is stuggling EARLY with the stick but he is great friends with the young jays and can communicate with the spanish players on the team. Not to mention he hit 25 homers as a rookie catcher and we're 10 games in and people want to bench him and trade him.. that's just ridiculous. Travis D'Arnaud has proved nothing to be that guy yet. When he comes up and puts up better numbers than JPA then you have a situation to deal with. Not yet..

Jay
04-16-2012, 12:17 PM
JPA is a streaky hitter. Things can turn around for him in a hurry.

scottythegreat1
04-16-2012, 01:12 PM
JPA and Jose Bautista are just in slumps, home runs usually come in bunches with sluggers.

The problem with JPA is that he needs to stop ALWAYS swinging for the fences, settle down and just hit the ball.

koreancabbage
04-16-2012, 10:54 PM
JPA and Jose Bautista are just in slumps, home runs usually come in bunches with sluggers.

The problem with JPA is that he needs to stop ALWAYS swinging for the fences, settle down and just hit the ball.

Arencibia is a low ball hitter, thus he is always going to swing for the fences. natural and huge uppercut swing is what really kills him from being a great hitter. good power but he will never hit the ball for average wit that swing.

Im pretty sure everyone knows Arencibia is a stop gap catcher right now. D'Arnaud is probably going to be the better hitter. Can't get worse than Arencibia, cept for Mathis, but right now, Mathis is winning this small batter (last game lol) even though he knows he lost the war lol

ah nuts
04-17-2012, 12:14 AM
Hey! stop talking trash about our leader in BA!
maybe he is our "Bautista" this year (kidding)

got to say JPA is a hard dude to judge right now.

wamco
04-17-2012, 06:32 AM
[QUOTE=koreancabbage;21793734]Arencibia is a low ball hitter



He sure has been. Pretty much first pitch hits on the ground to the SS

StealingSigns
04-17-2012, 10:18 PM
Damn, JPA is ice cold... He needs to break out of this funk.

2009mvp
04-17-2012, 10:25 PM
He sure is making the eventual D'Arnaud/JPA decision an easy one so far.

StealingSigns
04-17-2012, 10:32 PM
He sure is making the eventual D'Arnaud/JPA decision an easy one so far.

Agreed. I knew the debate would get amped up at some point, but not in the third week of April.

d'Arnaud isn't exactly lighting it up in Vegas though.

koreancabbage
04-18-2012, 10:14 PM
There is absolutely no way you could argue that Mathis should be a starter. Hell, it's a head scratcher that the guy has even been in the league as long as he has. Johan Santana is only a little over 100 points back in his career OPS. JOHAN SANTANA. Mathis is on the same level as pitchers with his bat. That my friends is brutal. JP is a major league starter, Mathis is lucky he's not in AA.

He has the label "potential" stuck to him. I just think we might have the same situation with Arencibia. 23 hrs yippee yee ha. Until I see this man hit consistently, he's just as terrible as Mathis, when it comes to playability. As the starting catcher, we was one of the worse. But last year, it was more focused on game calling and defensive game- his batting average didn't impress anyone.

And starting this year, he's still not impressing. Even if he hits low .200 he's just as bad as Mathis realistically speaking.

Twitchy
04-18-2012, 11:22 PM
At this point they might as well ride Mathis out because he's on a hot streak. Or, you know, at least hitting his weight.

koreancabbage
04-18-2012, 11:24 PM
At this point they might as well ride Mathis out because he's on a hot streak. Or, you know, at least hitting his weight.

well, he's earned it. coming out of the gates on fire. Lets Arencibia focus and get the attention away from him for the most part.

2009mvp
04-18-2012, 11:52 PM
I think hitting his weight would qualify as a hot streak for Mathis

Krylian
04-19-2012, 12:11 AM
The only thing that is good about JPA right now is his personality. Aside from that, the defense has been solid, but unspectacular...and the offense has been abysmal.