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Chronz
04-12-2012, 01:49 PM
LINK (http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4692128/bradley-an-all-defense-first-teamer)

http://kwout.com/cutout/f/wf/qh/rwd_bor_rou_sha.jpg
What do you think?

He has Chandler as his DPOY

xxplayerxx23
04-12-2012, 01:52 PM
Theres going to be a lot of people that disagree with that, but the way tyson has changed the complection of the defense is crazy, He deserves to be a top candaite they will prob give it to dwight though

Raph12
04-12-2012, 03:38 PM
Chandler has been good this season, but I'd still give it to Dwight over him; better man-defender, better team defender and better defensive rebounder as well... I don't think you can give Chandler all the credit for the team as a whole, Mike Woodson and his defensive schemes also had a lot to do with it.

TrueFan420
04-12-2012, 03:43 PM
ricky rubio?

JordansBulls
04-12-2012, 03:45 PM
It has to be Chandler if you are talking about major turnaround. The Knicks were 22nd in defense last season and are 4th this season.
If not Chandler then either Iggy (philly 1st in defensive rtg) or Deng (bulls 3rd)

Cfrey
04-12-2012, 03:46 PM
ricky rubio?

Yeah.. If ricky never got injured he would probably be first team.

Slimsim
04-12-2012, 03:46 PM
I'll leave this alone

5ass
04-12-2012, 03:47 PM
Chandler has been good this season, but I'd still give it to Dwight over him; better man-defender, better team defender and better defensive rebounder as well... I don't think you can give Chandler all the credit for the team as a whole, Mike Woodson and his defensive schemes also had a lot to do with it.

and they added a great perimeter defender in shumpert, and melo finally realized he needs to put effort on D. Hell even JR smith is playing D in New York.
I'd give it to Dwight for the reasons you mentioned.

CudiOnMyiPod
04-12-2012, 03:48 PM
So Dallas first gets no respect for winning it all last year.

Now Shawn Marion isn't even on the 3rd team?

That is called hate and pure idiocracy. He is better than Hill and Hill is out for the year. Better defender than Allen and Deng too.

5ass
04-12-2012, 03:51 PM
also i think ibaka should be higher than gibson.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
04-12-2012, 03:53 PM
Bradley=:love:

SeoulBeatz
04-12-2012, 03:54 PM
AAAAAANDRE IGuoooooooo- DALA!

that's all i'll contribute to this thread

Lakers + Giants
04-12-2012, 03:54 PM
No lakers, haha. Finally kobe isn't being overrated on defense.

PurpleJesus
04-12-2012, 03:55 PM
Cool to see Ricky get some credit from a respected analyst on his defense, but he wont come close to being on any team, due to the significant time he missed.

Chronz
04-12-2012, 03:59 PM
and they added a great perimeter defender in shumpert, and melo finally realized he needs to put effort on D. Hell even JR smith is playing D in New York.
I'd give it to Dwight for the reasons you mentioned.

You could have said the same thing when KG won it in Boston.

He115ing
04-12-2012, 04:01 PM
HAHA Chandler over Howard!!!

5ass
04-12-2012, 04:07 PM
You could have said the same thing when KG won it in Boston.

and i do, not that i think he didnt deserve it. Its like raph said i cant give all of the credit to chandler. They're turnaround has more to do with just how awful they were defensively last year than how good they are this year.

haggis
04-12-2012, 04:10 PM
also i think ibaka should be higher than gibson.

No. Gibson has been outrageously good this year.

Chacarron
04-12-2012, 04:11 PM
Avery Bradley is sexy on defense.

VCaintdead17
04-12-2012, 04:13 PM
I don't see how Elton Brand gets no mention whatsoever...

nycericanguy
04-12-2012, 04:15 PM
and i do, not that i think he didnt deserve it. Its like raph said i cant give all of the credit to chandler. They're turnaround has more to do with just how awful they were defensively last year than how good they are this year.

No it doesn't, they are the 3rd or 4th best defense this year. Thats great in ANY year.

Chandler is a stud, he's an absolute game changer. And this is coming from me, who thought whoever signed him would regret it. I thought he was overrated and injury prone. I now have a stomach-ache from eating so much crow.

Offensively he's also having one of the most efficient seasons in NBA history.

How he didn't make the All-Star team is beyond me.

Ezio
04-12-2012, 04:19 PM
3 Bulls :smoking:

LongIslandIcedZ
04-12-2012, 04:21 PM
Chandler has been absolutely phenomenal. When the Knicks first signed him, I thought they overpaid him vastly. I was totally incorrect about that. The guy might not put up the flashy blocks, but the guy anchors a very very good Knicks defense. It's cool to actually see him get some love.

Ebbs
04-12-2012, 04:22 PM
I disagree with Bradley he has been great late but he doesn't deserve that first spot over players who were doing it al lyear.

5ass
04-12-2012, 04:23 PM
No it doesn't, they are the 3rd or 4th best defense this year. Thats great in ANY year.

Chandler is a stud, he's an absolute game changer. And this is coming from me, who thought whoever signed him would regret it. I thought he was overrated and injury prone. I now have a stomach-ache from eating so much crow.

Offensively he's also having one of the most efficient seasons in NBA history.

How he didn't make the All-Star team is beyond me.

dont get me wrong, Chandler is their defensive anchor. What im saying is hes still the same defender he was last season, and at that time there was really no contest last season between him and dwight.

Baller1
04-12-2012, 04:27 PM
1. Ibaka isn't a center.
2. He's too low either way.

FraziersKnicks
04-12-2012, 04:29 PM
I'm not sure if a guy who's played less than 20 MPG should be 1st team All-Defense (Avery Bradley)... Love the selection of Chandler on the first team. He's been the major contributing factor as to why we're now one of the best defensive teams in the league. TYSON 4 DPOY!!

Sportfan
04-12-2012, 04:33 PM
KG should win it

29$JerZ
04-12-2012, 04:37 PM
The fact the Knicks are any where near top 5 in defense and this ain't the 90's will show his impact.

Chandler has a fair shot IMO. Not totally outrageous. I'm surprised he has Bradley and Rubio in when 1 doesn't play a ton of minute and the other is done for the year.

Swashcuff
04-12-2012, 04:40 PM
This makes me beg the question now of who is the best defensive PG in the NBA if Kyle Lowry who started of the season as the cream of the crop defensively among PGs and as the season has progressed guys like Bradley (if you consider him a PG), Holiday ,Rose, Conley ,Chalmers, Rubio have made some noise in that discussion as well as the usuals in Rondo and Paul.

Green_Monster
04-12-2012, 04:40 PM
The fact the Knicks are any where near top 5 in defense and this ain't the 90's will show his impact.

Chandler has a fair shot IMO. Not totally outrageous. I'm surprised he has Bradley and Rubio in when 1 doesn't play a ton of minute and the other is done for the year.

Bradley starts...

blastmasta26
04-12-2012, 04:40 PM
So Dallas first gets no respect for winning it all last year.

Now Shawn Marion isn't even on the 3rd team?

That is called hate and pure idiocracy. He is better than Hill and Hill is out for the year. Better defender than Allen and Deng too.

A little ironic that you're trying to call someone an idiot and you're using the wrong word (idiocy).

Anyway, Tyson for DPOY? Doubt it, but hope so. :cool:

oak2455
04-12-2012, 04:41 PM
Hasn't Tyson locked down D12 a few times this year??

nycericanguy
04-12-2012, 04:41 PM
dont get me wrong, Chandler is their defensive anchor. What im saying is hes still the same defender he was last season, and at that time there was really no contest last season between him and dwight.

He was in the discussion last year, but Dwight had a better year also.

And this year, taking one of the worst defensive teams and turning them into a top 3 or 4 defensive team, he's obviously going to get more recognition because of that.

Swashcuff
04-12-2012, 04:44 PM
So Dallas first gets no respect for winning it all last year.

I would love to know what planet you're living on because everyone on earth has given the Mavs their respect and then some for winning the title.


Now Shawn Marion isn't even on the 3rd team?

He doesn't deserve to be thats why.


That is called hate and pure idiocracy. He is better than Hill and Hill is out for the year. Better defender than Allen and Deng too.

Stating that Marion is a better defender than Tony Allen and Luol Deng shows that you're a complete homer without any appreciation for the defensive play of Luol Deng (the anchor of one of the best defensive teams in the league) and Tony Allen who has been a top 5 perimeter defender for basically each of the last 5 seasons and the last 2 seasons has been top 3.

You homers really need to get a grip.

BKdoubleStacker
04-12-2012, 04:46 PM
I would love to know what planet you're living on because everyone on earth has given the Mavs their respect and then some for winning the title.



He doesn't deserve to be thats why.



Stating that Marion is a better defender than Tony Allen and Luol Deng shows that you're a complete homer without any appreciation for the defensive play of Luol Deng (the anchor of one of the best defensive teams in the league) and Tony Allen who has been a top 5 perimeter defender for basically each of the last 5 seasons and the last 2 seasons has been top 3.

You homers really need to get a grip.

lol

isnt this the same guy that said dirk is a top 5 player this year still?

VCaintdead17
04-12-2012, 04:47 PM
I would love to know what planet you're living on because everyone on earth has given the Mavs their respect and then some for winning the title.



He doesn't deserve to be thats why.



Stating that Marion is a better defender than Tony Allen and Luol Deng shows that you're a complete homer without any appreciation for the defensive play of Luol Deng (the anchor of one of the best defensive teams in the league) and Tony Allen who has been a top 5 perimeter defender for basically each of the last 5 seasons and the last 2 seasons has been top 3.

You homers really need to get a grip.

Swash, what do you think about Brand getting snubbed? You could argue for him being the best big man defender in the league IMO.

ayuntalo
04-12-2012, 04:49 PM
Dwight showed he is the better defender overall,
heck even he defended the media after every game and practices lol

Swashcuff
04-12-2012, 04:55 PM
Swash, what do you think about Brand getting snubbed? You could argue for him being the best big man defender in the league IMO.

Brand has the numbers to back him up no doubt about it but this season he's really been abused inside by opposing bigs at times. He's solid but his defensive consistency just isn't there. IMO he's still among the top 10 defensive PFs but Taj, Collison, KG (the cream of the crop), Ibaka may be more deserving.

xnick5757
04-12-2012, 04:56 PM
chandler's not even in the top ten this season for DWS, lol

LongIslandIcedZ
04-12-2012, 04:57 PM
What about Mbah a Moute? I dont watch many Bucks games, but he seems like a very strong defender from the little bit I've seen. Any chance he could get some 3rd team votes?

Swashcuff
04-12-2012, 05:00 PM
chandler's not even in the top ten this season for DWS, lol

Larry Bird has more career DWS than Kevin McHale, Dennis Rodman, Gary Payton, Alonzo Mourning etc. DWS used by itself is one the worst stats to use to attempt to gauge a player's defensive worth.

Carlos Boozer and Kevin Durant has more DWS than Chandler, are you seriously going to use that by itself as your argument?

VCaintdead17
04-12-2012, 05:01 PM
Brand has the numbers to back him up no doubt about it but this season he's really been abused inside by opposing bigs at times. He's solid but his defensive consistency just isn't there. IMO he's still among the top 10 defensive PFs but Taj, Collison, KG (the cream of the crop), Ibaka may be more deserving.

Gotcha. He's always been a solid defender but his synergy #'s are through the roof this year.

xnick5757
04-12-2012, 05:01 PM
Larry Bird has more career DWS than Kevin McHale, Dennis Rodman, Gary Payton, Alonzo Mourning etc. DWS used by itself is one the worst stats to use to attempt to gauge a player's defensive worth.

Carlos Boozer and Kevin Durant has more DWS than Chandler, are you seriously going to use that by itself as your argument?

are you honestly going to say that chandler is better than howard?

Swashcuff
04-12-2012, 05:04 PM
are you honestly going to say that chandler is better than howard?

At any point anywhere in any of my posts have you seen me say that? :confused: I was simply pointing out the inconsistencies in your argument.

A strong case however could be made for Chandler given the fact that his team improved leaps and bounds defensively largely because of him and Dwight's team has underperformed in that regard (though his defensive support is not the best in the world).

Kashmir13579
04-12-2012, 05:23 PM
Is Rubio's defense that good to give him the nod over Shumpert?

justinnum1
04-12-2012, 05:23 PM
Is Rubio's defense that good to give him the nod over Shumpert?

it was pretty awesome, there team D #'s plummeted after rubio got injured

waveycrockett
04-12-2012, 05:35 PM
Tyson Chandler is a great defender. So is Howard but he gets overrated by what he can do on the offensive end. He is a fantastic two way player but Chandler has been the best defensive center this season.

Longhornfan1234
04-12-2012, 05:45 PM
Is Rubio's defense that good to give him the nod over Shumpert?

:facepalm:


People on PSD don't watch the game of basketball.

3rd among pg's in steals, 3rd in charges taken, 1st in combined steals/blocks/charges, 6th in rebounds, 4th in defensive rebounds, 7th in defensive rebound rate (among players playing 20+ mins/game)...

Raph12
04-12-2012, 05:51 PM
You could have said the same thing when KG won it in Boston.

Yes but KG led the league in Drtg, 2nd in DWS, his team was #1 in Deff; Tyson's not even top 10 in Drtg or DWS, his team is #4 in Deff and the team he left got better defensively without him... KG had a much stronger case than Tyson does, Dwight is better defensively in each and every aspect of defense.


Hasn't Tyson locked down D12 a few times this year??

If you consider "locked down" to include a double practically on touch, then yes he has. Dwight has taken only 21 shots throughout 3 games, they double him as soon as he puts it on the floor... Last season Tyson played him more 1v1 and Dwight's numbers against Dallas were 25ppg on 57% shooting.

The whole Knicks team has played really well defensively, Tyson's defensive +/- and DRAPM doesn't even stand out at all.

Kashmir13579
04-12-2012, 05:55 PM
:facepalm:


People on PSD don't watch the game of basketball.

3rd among pg's in steals, 3rd in charges taken, 1st in combined steals/blocks/charges, 6th in rebounds, 4th in defensive rebounds, 7th in defensive rebound rate (among players playing 20+ mins/game)...

I was legitimately asking? I've only seen the nationally televised Twolves games.

Rubio and Shump are neck and neck for STL%.

Rubio: 3.3
Shumpert: 3.2

3rd and 4th in the NBA respectively.

sunsfan88
04-12-2012, 05:58 PM
So Dallas first gets no respect for winning it all last year.

Now Shawn Marion isn't even on the 3rd team?

That is called hate and pure idiocracy. He is better than Hill and Hill is out for the year. Better defender than Allen and Deng too.

Hill is a better defender than Marion. And Hill will be playing in our next game so I don't know what you mean by "out for the year"

But I disagree with Ricky Rubio being on the list. I think it should be Rondo instead.

SteveNash
04-12-2012, 06:03 PM
Rubio? Laughable.

Why did Hollinger break it down by position and have three teams?

oak2455
04-12-2012, 06:56 PM
Yes but KG led the league in Drtg, 2nd in DWS, his team was #1 in Deff; Tyson's not even top 10 in Drtg or DWS, his team is #4 in Deff and the team he left got better defensively without him... KG had a much stronger case than Tyson does, Dwight is better defensively in each and every aspect of defense.



If you consider "locked down" to include a double practically on touch, then yes he has. Dwight has taken only 21 shots throughout 3 games, they double him as soon as he puts it on the floor... Last season Tyson played him more 1v1 and Dwight's numbers against Dallas were 25ppg on 57% shooting.

The whole Knicks team has played really well defensively, Tyson's defensive +/- and DRAPM doesn't even stand out at all.
Neither does Howard's play...the guy has turn into a big girl... :)

5ass
04-12-2012, 07:29 PM
Neither does Howard's play...the guy has turn into a big girl... :)

intelligent answer right there. Weren't you the one that told me earlier today that i should "stay in school"? Nice.

PatsSoxKnicks
04-12-2012, 08:00 PM
LINK (http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4692128/bradley-an-all-defense-first-teamer)

http://kwout.com/cutout/f/wf/qh/rwd_bor_rou_sha.jpg
What do you think?

He has Chandler as his DPOY

Were you as disappointed as I was that Hollinger didn't go more in depth in his other selections? The whole article was just about Chandler. Even being a Knicks fan, I would've liked to have read why he thought the others should've made their respective teams. I mean most of it is self-explanatory but still, was a bit disappointed in the article.

PS- Could you answer my VM about the PSAMS

PatsSoxKnicks
04-12-2012, 08:02 PM
I don't see how Elton Brand gets no mention whatsoever...

Yeah, same here. I think it was Haberstroh who was touting Brand's horn though, not Hollinger. Still, he's definitely worthy based on the metrics.

Neosheed
04-12-2012, 08:08 PM
and they added a great perimeter defender in shumpert, and melo finally realized he needs to put effort on D. Hell even JR smith is playing D in New York.
I'd give it to Dwight for the reasons you mentioned.

Shumpert is not a great defender he is a hack I watched the bulls vs knicks back to back and that dude is dose more hacking is the modern hand check and not get called for it dude will not get away wit that in the playoffs

MonroeFAN
04-12-2012, 08:14 PM
Is Ibaka a C? He should be the first PF on this list IMO, and then KG and Smith.

PatsSoxKnicks
04-12-2012, 08:14 PM
Yes but KG led the league in Drtg, 2nd in DWS, his team was #1 in Deff; Tyson's not even top 10 in Drtg or DWS, his team is #4 in Deff and the team he left got better defensively without him... KG had a much stronger case than Tyson does, Dwight is better defensively in each and every aspect of defense.



If you consider "locked down" to include a double practically on touch, then yes he has. Dwight has taken only 21 shots throughout 3 games, they double him as soon as he puts it on the floor... Last season Tyson played him more 1v1 and Dwight's numbers against Dallas were 25ppg on 57% shooting.

The whole Knicks team has played really well defensively, Tyson's defensive +/- and DRAPM doesn't even stand out at all.

I'm pretty sure I sent that article to you about Tyson's real defensive worth right? He plays a lot of time with Anthony and Amare and if you use player pairs/trios on off #'s, Chandler looks much better.


And as for the Knicks' vaunted Anthony-Stoudemire combo? Without Chandler, it stinks so bad on defense as to be unworkable. When the two play with Chandler, they've surrendered a respectable 99.5 points per 100 possessions, based on NBA.com's lineup data; do the backward math with that data and the minutes for each lineup and it means that, when he's out, they've been blistered for a ridiculous 113.5 (stats through Monday's games).

As for Tyson's DRAPM, I'd tend to believe that the large # of minutes that Tyson has played with either one of Melo or Amare on the floor has affected those +/- #'s. In the past, he's always posted very good DRAPMs.

Actually, Tyson's DRAPM has been pretty good this year if you use the stronger (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ranking_rec) of the 2 methods to calculate RAPM.

Anyways, even in spite of all that, Tyson doesn't have better defensive #'s than Dwight, so I'm not really arguing him. I'm just arguing against you diminishing his impact.

In Hollinger's article, it wasn't so much of an argument for Tyson to win DPOY as it was for Tyson to be rewarded for his work as one of the top defensive players over the last 5-6 years and because Dwight is having a down year, I think thats why he went with Tyson.

Longhornfan1234
04-12-2012, 08:19 PM
Kobe is a lock.

Blitzbolt
04-12-2012, 08:20 PM
No way if Tony Allen is not on the first team then its a Joke even if you have to put him out of position.

Punk
04-12-2012, 08:22 PM
I like it. Does Rubio's injury play into the list? If so, Kobe or Iman needs that spot.

Swashcuff
04-12-2012, 08:24 PM
Damn do I love it when PSK posts in an NBA thread.

LakersMaster24
04-12-2012, 08:28 PM
Id take Ron Artest on defense over Grant Hill.

Swashcuff
04-12-2012, 08:31 PM
Id take Ron Artest on defense over Grant Hill.

Me too but I'd take Grant Hill's D over Metta World Peace's and damn near anyone who has objectively watch both players play and have an understand of the numbers would as well.

PatsSoxKnicks
04-12-2012, 08:37 PM
Damn do I love it when PSK posts in an NBA thread.

:laugh2:

I've been posting a lot in the NBA Re-draft forum. You should be my Co next time lol.

Chronz
04-12-2012, 08:37 PM
I don't see how Elton Brand gets no mention whatsoever...
I read an article about his underrated defense.


and i do, not that i think he didnt deserve it. Its like raph said i cant give all of the credit to chandler. They're turnaround has more to do with just how awful they were defensively last year than how good they are this year.
Thats a pretty good reason IMO. It tends to happen when Tyson Chandler is traded. Hollinger makes the case

--------------------------------------------------------------
• He was the main defensive catalyst in Dallas the season before, when the Mavs improved on defense from 12th to seventh and ended up winning the title.

• A year earlier in Charlotte, although he missed 31 games with injuries, he was a key piece on a Bobcats squad that led the league in defensive efficiency (did, too).

• Before that, in New Orleans, he and the Hornets were a top-10 defensive team in consecutive seasons with Chandler and a whole lot of not much else.

• And before that, in Chicago, a young Chandler led the Bulls to the No. 2 mark in defense in 2004-05.

That's a whole lot of dots that connect Chandler to good-to-great defensive teams. He has led five franchises to defensive results that were far better than anyone expected as well as far beyond what the incumbent group of players had achieved previously.




And it's easy to see why when you watch him. He's incredibly long and mobile; he dominates the glass; he doesn't take bad risks going for blocks he can't get; he's a vocal leader without the Kevin Garnett fake-tough-guy stuff; and he has made steady improvements every year.




Which takes us to our endgame here. I think it's high time that Chandler's track record, as well as his one-man U-turn of the Knicks' defense, gained some recognition. Given the diminishing defensive output of Orlando's Dwight Howard this season, I'm endorsing Chandler as the NBA Defensive Player of the Year this season because he's the only thing separating the Knicks from yet another colossally overrated disaster.
------------------------------------------------------------




This makes me beg the question now of who is the best defensive PG in the NBA if Kyle Lowry who started of the season as the cream of the crop defensively among PGs and as the season has progressed guys like Bradley (if you consider him a PG), Holiday ,Rose, Conley ,Chalmers, Rubio have made some noise in that discussion as well as the usuals in Rondo and Paul.
Good question. I think the PG position is the hardest to stand out defensively, I also think its the one position where youthful legs are more important than experience, of course this depends on the player.

Chronz
04-12-2012, 08:42 PM
Yes but KG led the league in Drtg, 2nd in DWS, his team was #1 in Deff; Tyson's not even top 10 in Drtg or DWS, his team is #4 in Deff and the team he left got better defensively without him... KG had a much stronger case than Tyson does, Dwight is better defensively in each and every aspect of defense.
True, Boston was a historically elite defense, the Knicks lack the overall defenders to post those #'s and have hurt Tyson. Still the effect hes had on his teams is whats similar.

His prior team still has adequate defenders standing out so I wouldnt hold that too much against him. Remember when the Hornets traded Tyson for Emeka. Emeka is undersized buts hes no slouch defensively and the Hornets crumbled on that end without Tyson, meanwhile the Bobcats were elite on that end. You already know my feelings on those stats and Dwights season thus far, Tyson has as good a case IMO.

Im starting to wonder if MJ gave the Mavs a starting Center just so that Bron and Kobe dont approach his ring count.

Bruno
04-12-2012, 08:53 PM
Chandler is such a beast. This should be between Iggy, Chandler, and LBJ.

Orlandos not even a top ten defensive team.

LakersMaster24
04-12-2012, 08:58 PM
Me too but I'd take Grant Hill's D over Metta World Peace's and damn near anyone who has objectively watch both players play and have an understand of the numbers would as well.

Id take Metta over Hill on defense this year also. You are forgetting about Mettas ability to guard more than 1-2 positions. He is more versatile, because of his combination of strength and quick hands. Also Metta plays great help defense, and not just one on one.

Swashcuff
04-12-2012, 09:26 PM
Id take Metta over Hill on defense this year also. You are forgetting about Mettas ability to guard more than 1-2 positions. He is more versatile, because of his combination of strength and quick hands. Also Metta plays great help defense, and not just one on one.

You do know that Grant Hill defends 3 positions for the Suns right? You do also know that Grant is a better help defender than Metta right?

No disrespect but I don't think you're watching the Suns play enough if you think Artest is better than Hill at this point in their respective careers.

oak2455
04-12-2012, 09:42 PM
intelligent answer right there. Weren't you the one that told me earlier today that i should "stay in school"? Nice.

Seriously I know your a Magic homer but the guy has been and played like a complete ***** and is a cancer.... Also is he still out with the bad back bs?? It's ok to dislike players on a team you root for

Hawkeye15
04-12-2012, 09:43 PM
I actually agree with his teams to the dot. I also would give Chandler DPOY this season, Iggy 2nd, Bron 3rd.

Hawkeye15
04-12-2012, 09:44 PM
nice to see Rubio get the due he should. He is an amazing defensive player, the Wolves drop off a cliff defensively since he left just validates what I saw, and what stats say.

Swashcuff
04-12-2012, 09:50 PM
nice to see Rubio get the due he should. He is an amazing defensive player, the Wolves drop off a cliff defensively since he left just validates what I saw, and what stats say.

I really didn't think he would be that good defensively either but his impact for his size on that end of the floor for the Wolves when he played this season (especially as the season progressed) was unquestionable.

Hawkeye15
04-12-2012, 09:55 PM
I really didn't think he would be that good defensively either but his impact for his size on that end of the floor for the Wolves when he played this season (especially as the season progressed) was unquestionable.

I knew steals and rebounding were coming from his translated stats, but not even remotely did I think he would be so good one on one, and so disruptive to teams setting up in the halfcourt or in transition. He is everywhere, takes charges, gets steals without comprimising his position, and contests everything. If the ball gets in his area, he is going to knock it loose a lot of the time.

Everyone loves him for his passing, but his defensive game may be ahead of his passing this early.

oak2455
04-12-2012, 10:01 PM
I read an article about his underrated defense.


Thats a pretty good reason IMO. It tends to happen when Tyson Chandler is traded. Hollinger makes the case

--------------------------------------------------------------
He was the main defensive catalyst in Dallas the season before, when the Mavs improved on defense from 12th to seventh and ended up winning the title.

A year earlier in Charlotte, although he missed 31 games with injuries, he was a key piece on a Bobcats squad that led the league in defensive efficiency (did, too).

Before that, in New Orleans, he and the Hornets were a top-10 defensive team in consecutive seasons with Chandler and a whole lot of not much else.

And before that, in Chicago, a young Chandler led the Bulls to the No. 2 mark in defense in 2004-05.

That's a whole lot of dots that connect Chandler to good-to-great defensive teams. He has led five franchises to defensive results that were far better than anyone expected as well as far beyond what the incumbent group of players had achieved previously.




And it's easy to see why when you watch him. He's incredibly long and mobile; he dominates the glass; he doesn't take bad risks going for blocks he can't get; he's a vocal leader without the Kevin Garnett fake-tough-guy stuff; and he has made steady improvements every year.




Which takes us to our endgame here. I think it's high time that Chandler's track record, as well as his one-man U-turn of the Knicks' defense, gained some recognition. Given the diminishing defensive output of Orlando's Dwight Howard this season, I'm endorsing Chandler as the NBA Defensive Player of the Year this season because he's the only thing separating the Knicks from yet another colossally overrated disaster.
------------------------------------------------------------




Good question. I think the PG position is the hardest to stand out defensively, I also think its the one position where youthful legs are more important than experience, of course this depends on the player.

well done:clap::clap:

corky831
04-12-2012, 10:18 PM
as a celtics fan, I love Bradley on the list, he's a phenomenal defender....idk if they'd give it to him though because he wasn't given solid minutes until the all-star break. But if you see what the celtics have done since the all-star break, some of that has to be credited to Avery's fantastic defense

Hawkeye15
04-12-2012, 10:21 PM
as a celtics fan, I love Bradley on the list, he's a phenomenal defender....idk if they'd give it to him though because he wasn't given solid minutes until the all-star break. But if you see what the celtics have done since the all-star break, some of that has to be credited to Avery's fantastic defense

Avery Bradley is this generations Lindsey Hunter on that side of the ball.

Raph12
04-12-2012, 11:29 PM
True, Boston was a historically elite defense, the Knicks lack the overall defenders to post those #'s and have hurt Tyson. Still the effect hes had on his teams is whats similar.

Are you implying that the Magic have those type of overall defenders that would help Dwight's numbers? You said that if the big is posting nice blocks/rebounding numbers on a good defensive team, that his Drtg would stand out. On the Knicks team, outside of Douglas and Novak, there isn't a single player with a higher Drtg of 102, while Tyson is at 98. On the Magic, there isn't one rotation player that has a lower Drtg than 103, but Dwight is at 94. So if what you said was true, wouldn't Tyson have an extremely low Drtg because his teammates don't do what he does? Shouldn't he be atleast top 10 in DWS?


His prior team still has adequate defenders standing out so I wouldnt hold that too much against him. Remember when the Hornets traded Tyson for Emeka. Emeka is undersized buts hes no slouch defensively and the Hornets crumbled on that end without Tyson, meanwhile the Bobcats were elite on that end. You already know my feelings on those stats and Dwights season thus far, Tyson has as good a case IMO.

Im starting to wonder if MJ gave the Mavs a starting Center just so that Bron and Kobe dont approach his ring count.

Tyson's a great defensive big, I've already acknowledged that, but I also attribute the huge droppoff defensively in New Orleans to the coaching change and CP3 not being healthy (missing about half the season), ergo they weren't a motivated team. The Hornets were 7th defensively in 2008-09 under Larry Brown, so I'd assume that if you add one of the better defensive bigs in the league to that system, that they would improve.

He definitely has a case, I'm not questioning that, but his case is still weaker than Dwight's case... Despite all of the off-court stuff, Dwight easily posts the best defensive numbers of any big man and has a much larger impact on the game than any big league-wide.

D-Leethal
04-12-2012, 11:52 PM
Chandler has been good this season, but I'd still give it to Dwight over him; better man-defender, better team defender and better defensive rebounder as well... I don't think you can give Chandler all the credit for the team as a whole, Mike Woodson and his defensive schemes also had a lot to do with it.

The only thing that Woodson changed defensively was demanding it from every single player for 48 minutes and lighting a fire under their *** if they don't play it. The schemes are the same. We are a switch heavy team on screens and use our length and speed for sharp doubles to force TO's....we were still top 10 while Mike D was coaching.

Anyone who watches the Knicks knows Tyson deserves 95% of the credit. You put Ronnie Turiaf back on this team, whos a pretty good defender, were ranked back in the 20s. I think every single person on the team would say Tyson is the guy who quarterbacks the entire thing.

If you look at the 2 games Tyson missed this season, that should be plenty of evidence for you.

Shump is a lockdown 1 on 1 defender but Tyson anchors a lockdown TEAM defense.

Raph12
04-13-2012, 12:22 AM
The only thing that Woodson changed defensively was demanding it from every single player for 48 minutes and lighting a fire under their *** if they don't play it. The schemes are the same. We are a switch heavy team on screens and use our length and speed for sharp doubles to force TO's....we were still top 10 while Mike D was coaching.

Wrong, the defensive rotations, schemes and sets are much better and with Amare out, the team has gotten umpteen times better defensively, because Melo is a better defender and rebounder (can't believe I just said that about Melo). Even with Mike D coaching, Woodson still ran the defense all season long. Of course it is all put together around Chandler, as he has gotten his teammates to buy into defense, but without the sets/schemes Woodson runs and the 100% effort from his teammates, they wouldn't be a top 5 defense.


Anyone who watches the Knicks knows Tyson deserves 95% of the credit. You put Ronnie Turiaf back on this team, whos a pretty good defender, were ranked back in the 20s. I think every single person on the team would say Tyson is the guy who quarterbacks the entire thing.

If you look at the 2 games Tyson missed this season, that should be plenty of evidence for you.

Shump is a lockdown 1 on 1 defender but Tyson anchors a lockdown TEAM defense.

I never said he wasn't the quarterback, I just said the defensive coordinator has done a great job and that complete credit shouldn't go to Chandler. If they were so bad without him, why is his +/- so low? Why doesn't his DRAPM not stand out? Why isn't he top 10 in Drtg or DWS despite his team being a top 5 defensive squad?

If you want "evidence" look at the 4 games Dwight didn't play; besides the one game where the Pistons were on the 2nd of a b2b and the Magic caught them early, the other 3 games were a nightmare defensively (46.3ppg in the paint, 53+FG% [Magic were #1 in paint protection and #7 in FG% allowed prior to those games]).

I'm not saying Tyson doesn't have a case, he definitely does; but Dwight is the better man defender, the better team defender, the better pnr defender and recovers to lead the league (by a wide margin) in DRB%.

He defensive numbers are better than Tyson's across the board; Chronz and I agreed on this in the other thread as well. Dwight is the DPOY by default, you give it to someone else only because his off-court distractions or because has won too many in a row.

Chronz
04-13-2012, 12:06 PM
Are you implying that the Magic have those type of overall defenders that would help Dwight's numbers?
Its a comparison of KG and Tyson Chandler. Dwight puts up those particular #'s because of his boxscore dominance.


So if what you said was true, wouldn't Tyson have an extremely low Drtg because his teammates don't do what he does? Shouldn't he be atleast top 10 in DWS?
He does have a low DRTG and he plays enough to rank in the Top 10 in DWS.



Tyson's a great defensive big, I've already acknowledged that, but I also attribute the huge droppoff defensively in New Orleans to the coaching change and CP3 not being healthy (missing about half the season), ergo they weren't a motivated team. The Hornets were 7th defensively in 2008-09 under Larry Brown, so I'd assume that if you add one of the better defensive bigs in the league to that system, that they would improve.

Yea thats the point made by Hollinger, he has a long history of anchoring elite team defenses. Im sure there are always extenuating factors to consider in every analysis but the only point being made was that TC was the KG-Lite presence on those defenses.


He definitely has a case, I'm not questioning that, but his case is still weaker than Dwight's case... Despite all of the off-court stuff, Dwight easily posts the best defensive numbers of any big man and has a much larger impact on the game than any big league-wide.
Im pretty sure Hollinger has all the same #'s you do and he disagrees, so thats a good enough reason for me to think its not "easily" discussed.

D-Leethal
04-13-2012, 12:26 PM
Wrong, the defensive rotations, schemes and sets are much better and with Amare out, the team has gotten umpteen times better defensively, because Melo is a better defender and rebounder (can't believe I just said that about Melo). Even with Mike D coaching, Woodson still ran the defense all season long. Of course it is all put together around Chandler, as he has gotten his teammates to buy into defense, but without the sets/schemes Woodson runs and the 100% effort from his teammates, they wouldn't be a top 5 defense.



I never said he wasn't the quarterback, I just said the defensive coordinator has done a great job and that complete credit shouldn't go to Chandler. If they were so bad without him, why is his +/- so low? Why doesn't his DRAPM not stand out? Why isn't he top 10 in Drtg or DWS despite his team being a top 5 defensive squad?

If you want "evidence" look at the 4 games Dwight didn't play; besides the one game where the Pistons were on the 2nd of a b2b and the Magic caught them early, the other 3 games were a nightmare defensively (46.3ppg in the paint, 53+FG% [Magic were #1 in paint protection and #7 in FG% allowed prior to those games]).

I'm not saying Tyson doesn't have a case, he definitely does; but Dwight is the better man defender, the better team defender, the better pnr defender and recovers to lead the league (by a wide margin) in DRB%.

He defensive numbers are better than Tyson's across the board; Chronz and I agreed on this in the other thread as well. Dwight is the DPOY by default, you give it to someone else only because his off-court distractions or because has won too many in a row.

LOL, your gonna tell me I'm wrong about the schemes my team has run all season long? They are exactly the same. We switch on any screen thats not a 1-5 screen (Tyson/Jared/Amare will hedge the screen and/or double the PG when its 1-5, but we switch on every other position), we double down low from the weak side and on the perimeter pick and rolls (when its Jared or Tyson guarding the screener) and force TO's. We pack the paint on penetration and live with guys beating us from 3. We funnel guys baseline into Big Daddy Tyson.

Our D is predicated on forcing TO's which have been tops in the league all season long, the rotations are the same, the schemes the same. The accountability, demand from the coach, and response from the team are different.

And I am not saying Tyson is a better defender than Dwight. Dwight is a better on court defensive player, but DPOY, just like MVP, every now and then needs to switch. Dwights not gonna get it every year especially when his team is going through all sorts of circus like drama. Just like LeBron isn't going to get MVP every year when his #s say he should.

I will say Dwight doesn't bring 1/100th of the intangibles, leadership, or championship pedigree to the table that Tyson does. Those are not quantified in any stats but you better believe they show up on the court and permeate through a team and usually up the defense as a result of upping the overall intensity of the team.

nycsports2
04-13-2012, 12:37 PM
tyson and dwight are a wash for me... man i thought we overpaid for tyson but didnt mind bc the need was so huge at that position what a great pickup he turned out to be heart and soul of the team and a complete beast all year

Chronz
04-13-2012, 01:01 PM
Yea rarely do FA signing pan out as well for the new team so early, I think when you sign defensive players the chances of the move paying dividends is higher. Dwight probably is the DPOY but its good to see Tysons success translate for another team .

Giraffes Rule
04-13-2012, 02:56 PM
Should Garnett really be put at the power forward position? I was under the impression that he's mostly playing center these days.

SluggeR
04-13-2012, 03:25 PM
Chandler leaves some blocks out there, I guess I want him to erase everything like Ibaka does. Chandler is an overall good dfender though, it doesn't stop just with blocks.

Raph12
04-13-2012, 03:26 PM
Its a comparison of KG and Tyson Chandler. Dwight puts up those particular #'s because of his boxscore dominance.

Why do you think it is that Tyson doesn't get many blocks, steals and/or defensive rebounds? (just curious)


He does have a low DRTG and he plays enough to rank in the Top 10 in DWS.

Yes but his Drtg at 98 is not significant from other players on his team (only Douglas and Novak have higher than a 102 Drtg) and his DWS doesn't rank in the top 10, despite him only missing 2 games and playing over 33mpg. Why does his defensive +/- and DRAPM not stand out despite playing on an elite defensive squad?


Yea thats the point made by Hollinger, he has a long history of anchoring elite team defenses. Im sure there are always extenuating factors to consider in every analysis but the only point being made was that TC was the KG-Lite presence on those defenses.

Im pretty sure Hollinger has all the same #'s you do and he disagrees, so thats a good enough reason for me to think its not "easily" discussed.

I can agree that he can quarterback an elite defense (although he isn't really on KG's level in 08), but to say he has had a greater impact than Dwight defensively isn't really accurate on Hollinger's part. I think he's just rewarding him because he has had a significant impact, while Dwight's team as a whole, has dropped off defensively (plus Dwight won 3 in a row).


Yea rarely do FA signing pan out as well for the new team so early, I think when you sign defensive players the chances of the move paying dividends is higher. Dwight probably is the DPOY but its good to see Tysons success translate for another team .

I can definitely agree with everything here, Tyson is exactly what was needed for a Knicks team that wanted to change the culture. They got a great defensive big in Tyson and a good defensive coordinator in Mike Woodson to get things going in the right direction. With the off-courts stuff and Dwight winning 3 in a row, I wouldn't be surprised if Iggy, Tyson or Deng won this year.


LOL, your gonna tell me I'm wrong about the schemes my team has run all season long? They are exactly the same. We switch on any screen thats not a 1-5 screen (Tyson/Jared/Amare will hedge the screen and/or double the PG when its 1-5, but we switch on every other position), we double down low from the weak side and on the perimeter pick and rolls (when its Jared or Tyson guarding the screener) and force TO's. We pack the paint on penetration and live with guys beating us from 3. We funnel guys baseline into Big Daddy Tyson.

That's not how you played last season, you may have had switches here and there and some help defense by Stat, but it wasn't quite the same as it is now. You guys are a very aggressive defense, attacking offenses, forcing turnovers, contesting everything, gang-rebounding defensively and when guys are beat, the rotations are much quicker and much more precise. I guarantee you that Mike Woodson has worked those defensive rotations/schemes/sets to death, trying to make it perfect.


Our D is predicated on forcing TO's which have been tops in the league all season long, the rotations are the same, the schemes the same. The accountability, demand from the coach, and response from the team are different.

You guys forced a lot of turnovers last season as well, the difference is that now the rotations are much better and the sets run are much more effective, allowing the defense to be more aggressive. Watch the pnr this season and then go back and look at it last season; a lot of times the roll guy would attack the basket without any resistance; this season, the guy guarding the 3pt line on the weak side rotates to help on the roll man and stops that play, forcing the playmaker to get it to the 3pt shooter, at which point everyone just rotates... I don't have all day to explain the intricacies of all the changes in your team's overall defense, but I watch the Knicks a lot and I'll tell you that the defensive sets, schemes and rotations are definitely not the same as last year.


And I am not saying Tyson is a better defender than Dwight. Dwight is a better on court defensive player, but DPOY, just like MVP, every now and then needs to switch. Dwights not gonna get it every year especially when his team is going through all sorts of circus like drama. Just like LeBron isn't going to get MVP every year when his #s say he should.

I agree with everything here and with Dwight's off-court bs and the team's overall dropoff defensively, this would be the best year to give it to someone else.


I will say Dwight doesn't bring 1/100th of the intangibles, leadership, or championship pedigree to the table that Tyson does. Those are not quantified in any stats but you better believe they show up on the court and permeate through a team and usually up the defense as a result of upping the overall intensity of the team.

He does, just hasn't this season... He has wanted out since training camp, his formal trade request was denied, the team was in limbo all season, then they threatened to trade him unless he opted in at which point it was known that he was staying.

The team has dropped off because guys on our team aren't giving the same effort defensively; we've always been elite at defensive rebounding, but we're no longer aggressive on the perimeter, guys are half-assing everything; we don't force turnovers and we don't contest aggressively... I'm sure this has a lot to do with Dwight's "indecision" this season, but his individual play is the only thing keeping us top 10 defensively (just look at the games he missed).

PatsSoxKnicks
04-13-2012, 05:03 PM
Raph, you keep asking about Tyson's defensive +/- #s and DRAPM and I already explained to you why it is the way it is. I even sent you Hollinger's article. So it sort of seems like you have an agenda to discredit Tyson. If not, I don't know why you keep bring those #'s up when I've already told you the reasons for that.

FraziersKnicks
04-13-2012, 06:06 PM
LOL, your gonna tell me I'm wrong about the schemes my team has run all season long? They are exactly the same. We switch on any screen thats not a 1-5 screen (Tyson/Jared/Amare will hedge the screen and/or double the PG when its 1-5, but we switch on every other position), we double down low from the weak side and on the perimeter pick and rolls (when its Jared or Tyson guarding the screener) and force TO's. We pack the paint on penetration and live with guys beating us from 3. We funnel guys baseline into Big Daddy Tyson.

Our D is predicated on forcing TO's which have been tops in the league all season long, the rotations are the same, the schemes the same. The accountability, demand from the coach, and response from the team are different.

And I am not saying Tyson is a better defender than Dwight. Dwight is a better on court defensive player, but DPOY, just like MVP, every now and then needs to switch. Dwights not gonna get it every year especially when his team is going through all sorts of circus like drama. Just like LeBron isn't going to get MVP every year when his #s say he should.

I will say Dwight doesn't bring 1/100th of the intangibles, leadership, or championship pedigree to the table that Tyson does. Those are not quantified in any stats but you better believe they show up on the court and permeate through a team and usually up the defense as a result of upping the overall intensity of the team.

:clap:

Lake_Show2416
04-13-2012, 06:12 PM
well lets hope the league rewards the best defenders this year, rather then the best STAR defenders which they normally lean toward....... besides Kobe of course :D

Raph12
04-13-2012, 07:36 PM
Raph, you keep asking about Tyson's defensive +/- #s and DRAPM and I already explained to you why it is the way it is. I even sent you Hollinger's article. So it sort of seems like you have an agenda to discredit Tyson. If not, I don't know why you keep bring those #'s up when I've already told you the reasons for that.

That article explained why the Mavs have played better defensively without Tyson, not why the Knicks haven't really dropped off when Tyson hits the bench... Like I said, unless you discredit Dwight for the off-court antics or for winning 3 in a row; he's still more deserving than any player in the league.

amos1er
04-13-2012, 09:37 PM
No lakers, haha. Finally kobe isn't being overrated on defense.

Kobe is one of the greatest defenders in league history. You really don't know what you are talking about. Stop hating. :facepalm: Though I will say that this year, he does not deserve to be first team,maybe second or third. Since this is a Hollinger list, of course I knew that he would omit Kobe and put Lebron at #1. No surprise here, Hollinger is one of the biggest Lebron nuthuggers propaganda tools that Nike has unleashed.

stawka
04-13-2012, 10:13 PM
Rondo? Chandler over Ibaka AND Dwight? Mehh I dunno

Swashcuff
04-13-2012, 10:15 PM
Rondo? Chandler over Ibaka AND Dwight? Mehh I dunno

Why?

5ass
04-13-2012, 10:27 PM
That article explained why the Mavs have played better defensively without Tyson, not why the Knicks haven't really dropped off when Tyson hits the bench... Like I said, unless you discredit Dwight for the off-court antics or for winning 3 in a row; he's still more deserving than any player in the league.

This might happen, but it doesnt mean it should. Its like Rose getting MVP over Lebron last season, even though lebron was the better player. He just didnt get it because of "the decision", Lebron having won the previous 2, and because the bulls had a slightly better record. A lot people still feel rose didnt deserve that MVP.

Is it really fair to give the award to tyson just because the knicks are a better defensive team than the magic, Howards trade situation, and Dwight having won the last 3? Should we really ignore that Howard's defensive play has a bigger impact than Chandlers?

I realize this post is gonna anger a lot of bulls and knicks fans, but im going to express my opinion nonetheless. Please try to keep this on topic. Id like to get a serious response whether u agree the situations are similar or not.

JordansBulls
04-13-2012, 11:20 PM
After what John Lucas III did to Lebron this year and Taj Gibson the other day shaking and baking Lebron, LBJ should never see a defensive team.

stawka
04-13-2012, 11:32 PM
JB. Do you enjoy people getting banned because they get pissed off with your ******** posts and it's either kill themselves, their wife and kids, or simply start cursing you out

You're a joke these days

And by your standards. By Rose's great shooting yesterday, he should never shoot a ball again, Ibaka shouldn't defend anymore either because he gets dunked on once a week by Griffin... We can keep going if you like?

sharqstealth
04-13-2012, 11:37 PM
Shumpert should be in there...

RonE Coleman
04-13-2012, 11:46 PM
Lmao at anyone thinking ibaka is a good defender just cause he blocks a lot of shots... dude gets posted up all the time... hes good but he is no where near the defender of guys like chandler, iggy, LBGay, Tony Allen

roju23
04-14-2012, 12:02 AM
Shumpert will be on this list in years to come...from what I've seen this year, he deserves a mention now.

Shammyguy3
04-14-2012, 02:32 AM
After what John Lucas III did to Lebron this year and Taj Gibson the other day shaking and baking Lebron, LBJ should never see a defensive team.

This is ********. Lucas was on fire that game, and simply got the best of Lebron James. Gibson the other night got the best of him as well. Those isolated incidents don't erase the thousands of great defensive plays Lebron has had both on help defense, rotations, in transition, and in man-to-man situations in the post and on the perimeter.

This is one of the worst posts i've ever seen from you, and that's saying something.

Chronz
04-14-2012, 05:31 AM
JB has been a mod for so long, let him enjoy the art of trolling for abit

Colts2180
04-14-2012, 05:52 AM
This is a terrible list. Rubio?? Really? 2 guys not even good enough to start are on here and Chandler over Dwight is just sad. I cant even look at this with any kind credibility.

JordansBulls
04-14-2012, 09:00 AM
JB has been a mod for so long, let him enjoy the art of trolling for abit

When saying something not true or that didn't happen that is trolling, when saying something that actually did happen that is the truth. Lucas worked Lebron that game.

thekmp211
04-14-2012, 09:14 AM
would have rondo over rubio...but bradley there is fine. i effing love taj gibson, so glad scrub boozer still somehow starts over him.

PatsSoxKnicks
04-14-2012, 01:52 PM
That article explained why the Mavs have played better defensively without Tyson, not why the Knicks haven't really dropped off when Tyson hits the bench... Like I said, unless you discredit Dwight for the off-court antics or for winning 3 in a row; he's still more deserving than any player in the league.

It also explained that Tyson suffers from playing with Melo + Amare (if you don't remember, go back and read it). And I also posted a bit about that earlier in this thread. I don't know what page it is but it's there.

JCmasta
04-14-2012, 02:02 PM
CTRL+F Shawn Marion


..:facepalm:.

Longhornfan1234
04-14-2012, 04:03 PM
This is a terrible list. Rubio?? Really? 2 guys not even good enough to start are on here and Chandler over Dwight is just sad. I cant even look at this with any kind credibility.

:facepalm:


Rubio is 3rd among pg's in steals, 3rd in charges taken, 1st in combined steals/blocks/charges, 6th in rebounds, 4th in defensive rebounds, 7th in defensive rebound rate (among players playing 20+ mins/game)...


Please...quit watching the NBA.

Longhornfan1234
04-14-2012, 04:06 PM
My all-defensive team


Rubio- Shump

T.Allen- Kobe

King James- Iggy

KG- Ibaka

Howard - Chandler



This list is not debateable.

Raph12
04-14-2012, 04:23 PM
It also explained that Tyson suffers from playing with Melo + Amare (if you don't remember, go back and read it). And I also posted a bit about that earlier in this thread. I don't know what page it is but it's there.

Right, but Dwight plays with Nelson, Redick, JRich, Hedo, Anderson and other crap defenders for most of his minutes; yet his defensive +/- and DRAPM are among the best in the league. Orlando has stronger defenders off the bench as well (Duhon, QRich, Clark, Baby, etc), but the team still drops off considerably... Tyson's capable of anchoring an elite defense, but his impact isn't on the level of KG in '08 or Dwight '09-Present.

YoungOne
04-14-2012, 04:32 PM
marc gasol should be the third center

knicks4life33
04-14-2012, 05:11 PM
tyson chandler and im not being a homer. The knicks are 3rd or 4th in defense and last year they were 27th. Thats an anchor and look at the mavericks now. They are a totally different team. There having a horrible year and defense is not good this year and dropped dramatically. Thats a 1 man change . also chandler shut down howard a few games this year .The knicks opponents last year were averaging 104 POINTS AGANIST THEM this year 94 POINTSSSSS. COME ON NOWWWWWWWW.

Raph12
04-14-2012, 05:31 PM
tyson chandler and im not being a homer. The knicks are 3rd or 4th in defense and last year they were 27th. Thats an anchor and look at the mavericks now. They are a totally different team. There having a horrible year and defense is not good this year and dropped dramatically. Thats a 1 man change . also chandler shut down howard a few games this year .The knicks opponents last year were averaging 104 POINTS AGANIST THEM this year 94 POINTSSSSS. COME ON NOWWWWWWWW.

The Mavs are playing better defense this year than they were last year... Not saying it's because Tyson is gone, just pointing out the facts.

Also, the Knicks double-teamed against Dwight as soon as he put it on the floor. Last season, Tyson tried guarding Dwight 1v1 and Dwight put up 25+ppg on 57+FG%. So I wouldn't really say "chandler shut down howard", I'd say "the knicks shutdown howard".

#just saying

Chronz
04-14-2012, 06:53 PM
JB has been a mod for so long, let him enjoy the art of trolling for abit

When saying something not true or that didn't happen that is trolling, when saying something that actually did happen that is the truth. Lucas worked Lebron that game.
Not in my book. If you have a knack for finding small kernels of truth and blowing them up to the degree you did with that post then your trolling pretty good

blahblahyoutoo
04-14-2012, 07:15 PM
Theres going to be a lot of people that disagree with that, but the way tyson has changed the complection of the defense is crazy, He deserves to be a top candaite they will prob give it to dwight though

SOOO close.

DragonJaii
04-14-2012, 07:24 PM
noah should be there instead of tyson

Blitzbolt
04-14-2012, 07:35 PM
Tony Allen is best defender in the NBA and he is not even in the first team which is stupid.

Is Iggy a SG?or a small foward?

ManRam
04-14-2012, 07:40 PM
I'm actually OK with Dwight being second team. He's still obviously amazing...but his impact hasn't been as huge as it traditionally has been. What Chandler has done in NYK is amazing...and the Magic defense is the worst it has been in a while. So that's fine. Dwight's a better defender, but I'm fine with him being on the second team.

I like his first team.

MELO 15
04-14-2012, 07:43 PM
Where is shumpert?

PatsSoxKnicks
04-15-2012, 01:25 AM
Right, but Dwight plays with Nelson, Redick, JRich, Hedo, Anderson and other crap defenders for most of his minutes; yet his defensive +/- and DRAPM are among the best in the league. Orlando has stronger defenders off the bench as well (Duhon, QRich, Clark, Baby, etc), but the team still drops off considerably... Tyson's capable of anchoring an elite defense, but his impact isn't on the level of KG in '08 or Dwight '09-Present.

I haven't dug into Tyson's impact relative to KG in 08 but it probably does fall short. However, it still seems you're trying to discredit him by using his misleading defensive +/- numbers against him. Again, you look at player pair-trios, and Tyson's spent a majority of his minutes covering for a terrible Amare or Melo. Their defensive rating with those 2 on the court at the same time falls apart when Tyson leaves.

I'm not disputing Dwight having poor defenders on his team but I'm saying you have to stop using Tyson's defensive +/- against him.

And actually, this version (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ranking_rec) is supposedly the better and more accurate version (according to one of Hollinger's scouting reports that he linked to that version, haven't gone through the APBR thread yet) and Tyson has been pretty good. Not as good as Dwight but not a negative +/- like you keep trying to imply.

jayjay16
04-15-2012, 01:47 AM
My all-defensive team


Rubio- Shump

T.Allen- Kobe

King James- Iggy

KG- Ibaka

Howard - Chandler



This list is not debateable.I agree with this list

Shammyguy3
04-15-2012, 03:20 AM
There's nothing wrong with Longhorn's list, except for Kobe Bryant being anywhere near an all-defensive team.

You have guys like Thabo Sefolosha, Ronnie Brewer, Luol Deng, Shawn Marion, Kyle Lowry, and Tayshaun Prince that are much better defenders than he is on the perimeter.

Raph12
04-15-2012, 04:09 AM
I haven't dug into Tyson's impact relative to KG in 08 but it probably does fall short. However, it still seems you're trying to discredit him by using his misleading defensive +/- numbers against him. Again, you look at player pair-trios, and Tyson's spent a majority of his minutes covering for a terrible Amare or Melo. Their defensive rating with those 2 on the court at the same time falls apart when Tyson leaves.

I'm not disputing Dwight having poor defenders on his team but I'm saying you have to stop using Tyson's defensive +/- against him.

I'm comparing his +/- to Dwight's, they both do the same things for their teams, but when Dwight leaves the floor, there is a much bigger dropoff... I'd love to see a detailed version of the +/- for the whole season and see where exactly the impact has been made by both players. Pairing poor defenders with Tyson shouldn't hurt his numbers as much as it has, Dwight usually plays with the lesser defenders on his team (most of the starting line) for most of his minutes anyways.

Just look at the games Dwight has missed this season, the opposing team has shot over 50% in 4 of the 5 games, it's just mind-blowing how awful this Magic team is defensively without Dwight (top 10 with him this season).


And actually, this version (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ranking_rec) is supposedly the better and more accurate version (according to one of Hollinger's scouting reports that he linked to that version, haven't gone through the APBR thread yet) and Tyson has been pretty good. Not as good as Dwight but not a negative +/- like you keep trying to imply.

I'm looking at those numbers and I see names like MGasol, GForce, JSmoove, TD, Amir Johnson, etc all ranking ahead of him for DRAPM. His numbers don't stand out and if I'm not giving it to Dwight, who's the best defensive big in the league, I'm not going to give it to Tyson considering. I'd give it to a wing defender like Iggy, who's the best perimeter defender and his numbers are elite across the board.

...

Tyson's a good defensive big and he can anchor an elite defense, I'm just not willing to credit him with all of NY's defensive success this season.

Chronz
04-15-2012, 01:51 PM
Why do you think it is that Tyson doesn't get many blocks, steals and/or defensive rebounds? (just curious)

Same reason KG saw his blocks go down, they have prioritized positional defense above gambling. These guys are long enough to defend with their feet on the ground.



Yes but his Drtg at 98 is not significant from other players on his team (only Douglas and Novak have higher than a 102 Drtg)
I'm not getting your point.



and his DWS doesn't rank in the top 10, despite him only missing 2 games and playing over 33mpg.

Not correct



Why does his defensive +/- and DRAPM not stand out despite playing on an elite defensive squad?


Refer to Tre, I'm sure he can hook you up with the links to the articles that get in depth, I dont have them on me but basically its because he plays with bad defenders who also play out of position and his primary backup (Jeffries) is also a decent defender.



I can agree that he can quarterback an elite defense (although he isn't really on KG's level in 08), but to say he has had a greater impact than Dwight defensively isn't really accurate on Hollinger's part. I think he's just rewarding him because he has had a significant impact, while Dwight's team as a whole, has dropped off defensively (plus Dwight won 3 in a row).

Nobody is saying hes on KGs level. And maybe but that doesn't sound like Hollinger, hes never been one to follow that line of thinking, he has however trashed that line of thinking so I can't get behind that rationale. I think he focuses heavily on his metrics but who knows maybe he is ignoring them for Tyson, Ill see what other stat heads say on the matter.

Super.
04-15-2012, 05:33 PM
It has to be Chandler if you are talking about major turnaround. The Knicks were 22nd in defense last season and are 4th this season.
If not Chandler then either Iggy (philly 1st in defensive rtg) or Deng (bulls 3rd)

I would take KG over Deng

Raph12
04-15-2012, 08:11 PM
I'm not getting your point.

If Tyson's the only one with big rebound and block numbers on the team, shouldn't his Drtg stand out from the pack?


Not correct

He's #8 now, he was #12 when I wrote that.


Nobody is saying hes on KGs level. And maybe but that doesn't sound like Hollinger, hes never been one to follow that line of thinking, he has however trashed that line of thinking so I can't get behind that rationale. I think he focuses heavily on his metrics but who knows maybe he is ignoring them for Tyson, Ill see what other stat heads say on the matter.

Well statistically speaking, Dwight's defensive numbers are better than Tyson's across the board and I'm sure he's more significant to his team than Tyson has been to his team. Look at the games they've played without Dwight, in 4 of the 5 games, the opposing team has shot over 50% from the floor and the only game they played well defensively was against the Pistons when Detroit was on a b2b.

If Hollinger was using metrics to say Tyson's more deserving of DPOY, I'd love to see the breakdown.

...

PS: I'm editing the post to respond to only what I need responses for.

Chronz
04-15-2012, 08:26 PM
If Tyson's the only one with big rebound and block numbers on the team, shouldn't his Drtg stand out from the pack

Short answer no, long answer requires the question, why are you citing stats you dont really grasp?



He's #8 now, he was #12 when I wrote that.

lol and he was where I said he was when I posted, kind of proves how trivial your barometer is doesn't it?



Well statistically speaking, Dwight's defensive numbers are better than Tyson's across the board and I'm sure he's more significant to his team than Tyson has been to his team. Look at the games they've played without Dwight, in 4 of the 5 games, the opposing team has shot over 50% from the floor and the only game they played well defensively was against the Pistons when Detroit was on a b2b.

I dont think your qualified to speak on a full scale sweep of statistical supremacy like that given what I know about you.



If Hollinger was using metrics to say Tyson's more deserving of DPOY, I'd love to see the breakdown.


Chances are, if its Hollinger stats were taken into account. And if youve followed him over the years you know how much of a stat whore he can be.

da ThRONe
04-15-2012, 08:40 PM
I still cant believe we traded Tyson for Emeka.:mad:

Raph12
04-15-2012, 08:46 PM
Short answer no, long answer requires the question, why are you citing stats you dont really grasp?

You were the one who told me that it was because of Dwight's rebounding and shot blocking that his Drtg was that high compared to his teammates. I thought Drtg was "points allowed per 100 posessions", then you told me that "box score dominance" affected individual Drtg... Now I'm just trying to figure out how this is actually calculated.


I dont think your qualified to speak on a full scale sweep of statistical supremacy like that given what I know about you.

Chances are, if its Hollinger stats were taken into account. And if youve followed him over the years you know how much of a stat whore he can be.

DRAPM, DWS, Drtg, OPP, DRB%, STL%, BLK%, Defensive +/-, Synergy, etc... You name it, Dwight does it better, I'd love to see anyone break it down statistically and show Tyson's superiority.

NJBASEBALL22
04-15-2012, 11:36 PM
ricky rubio?

Yes, very underrated defender. His length is key.

Hawkeye15
04-15-2012, 11:39 PM
This is a terrible list. Rubio?? Really? 2 guys not even good enough to start are on here and Chandler over Dwight is just sad. I cant even look at this with any kind credibility.

Rubio is a very, very good defender. Its become even more obvious since he was hurt.

Hawkeye15
04-15-2012, 11:41 PM
:facepalm:


Rubio is 3rd among pg's in steals, 3rd in charges taken, 1st in combined steals/blocks/charges, 6th in rebounds, 4th in defensive rebounds, 7th in defensive rebound rate (among players playing 20+ mins/game)...


Please...quit watching the NBA.

Exactly. Rubio is as disruptive as it gets defensively. He gets so many deflections, turns ball handlers, challenges shots, and if the ball is in his area, he is going to knock it loose.

nyanks79
04-15-2012, 11:48 PM
Im not saying Rubio is a bad defender cause he isnt, never was. But I watched the Wolves as much as I could, mainly because of Rubio, but I dont know if I have ever seen him go over a screen. Not even exaggeratting. Had to of set the record for % of going under screens.