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will_87
04-09-2012, 05:52 PM
Did anyone else hear Farrell discussing this with McCown. It seems that the foot problem is healing a little bit slower than hoped and that Dustin hasn't begun to throw yet. Farrell estimated that mid-May would be the earliest that we'd see McGowan.

2009mvp
04-09-2012, 06:01 PM
Shocker. Can't help but keep questioning that extension, just seems like such an awful idea. As far the current team that's two starters down. Hopefully Carreno gets the ball and runs with it.

Dol-Fan
04-09-2012, 06:04 PM
oh well, he's really not any better an option than Drabek is. Just tough to cut your losses after spending years trying to rehab this guy but the extension was inexplicable.

will_87
04-09-2012, 06:05 PM
Shocker. Can't help but keep questioning that extension, just seems like such an awful idea. As far the current team that's two starters down. Hopefully Carreno gets the ball and runs with it.

Carreno has already been sent down to AAA.

2009mvp
04-09-2012, 06:07 PM
They're gonna need a 5th starter in a couple weeks. I'm assuming that's still his spot.

will_87
04-09-2012, 06:08 PM
They're gonna need a 5th starter in a couple weeks. I'm assuming that's still his spot.

Laffey was called up to pitch in the bullpen. Farrell is telling the media that they haven't decided who starts in a few weeks. I think the date is the 21st against Kansas City.

North Yorker
04-09-2012, 06:26 PM
**** it just hand the ball to Jenkins or Hutchison and see if they run with it.

mtf
04-09-2012, 06:35 PM
Shocker. Can't help but keep questioning that extension, just seems like such an awful idea. As far the current team that's two starters down. Hopefully Carreno gets the ball and runs with it.

I think McGowan's extension was only $1.5M per year, for both 2012 and 2013 with a club option of $4M for 2014. It seemed like a low risk deal, with a high potential reward. Doesn't look like too big of a loss for the organization if it doesn't work out.

I think the nature of present day baseball, especially in this city with the famous payroll parameters we've heard about and discussed, everyone is super vigilant on tracking down the value of every penny the organization spends. When it comes to a high profile player, like a Prince Fielder or Yu Darvish, it's such a big investment that it deserves to be scrutinized. But when this risk is this small, it doesn't really seem like it matters.

2009mvp
04-09-2012, 06:45 PM
It's 3M dollars for a guy whose body is made of glass. Realistically what did they expect, 200 innings of 3.00 ERA ball out of him or something? Given his history we're not talking about a guy that teams were lining up to give millions of dollars to even if he pitches well this year. Just made no sense guaranteeing any kind of money to someone like that at this point.

mtf
04-09-2012, 06:59 PM
It's 3M dollars for a guy whose body is made of glass. Realistically what did they expect, 200 innings of 3.00 ERA ball out of him or something? Given his history we're not talking about a guy that teams were lining up to give millions of dollars to even if he pitches well this year. Just made no sense guaranteeing any kind of money to someone like that at this point.

I agree with you that it was odd to give him the contract, but I didn't really (at that price) that it was significant at all, and that's all I was saying.

T.O.Bombinators
04-09-2012, 07:51 PM
u know, it may be better he misses the start of the year instead of getting shutdown in the last month or so when we could be fighting got a playoff spot

boilerguy2412
04-09-2012, 08:15 PM
Diabetics need a lot more time to heal from injury then normal people, Cut the guy some slack, he will be back.

Spiderdan22
04-09-2012, 08:23 PM
Being loyal to McG also shows other Jays players and the rest of the league the class of the organization. I'm sure that will be noticed when current Jays players are negociating new contracts as well as free agents.

mtf
04-09-2012, 08:58 PM
Diabetics need a lot more time to heal from injury then normal people, Cut the guy some slack, he will be back.

Is that a joke? I know Brandon Morrow is diabetic, but was unaware McGowan was too.

Krylian
04-09-2012, 11:10 PM
It's 3M dollars for a guy whose body is made of glass. Realistically what did they expect, 200 innings of 3.00 ERA ball out of him or something? Given his history we're not talking about a guy that teams were lining up to give millions of dollars to even if he pitches well this year. Just made no sense guaranteeing any kind of money to someone like that at this point.

He'd cost more than $1.5M if those are the numbers expected.

But you're right. Clearly this deal will bankrupt the team.

Krylian
04-09-2012, 11:10 PM
Is that a joke? I know Brandon Morrow is diabetic, but was unaware McGowan was too.

Yes. He is.

2009mvp
04-09-2012, 11:33 PM
Diabetics need a lot more time to heal from injury then normal people, Cut the guy some slack, he will be back.

Morrow seems to be handling it alright.


u know, it may be better he misses the start of the year instead of getting shutdown in the last month or so when we could be fighting got a playoff spot

What about anything he's done since like, 2008 would indicate he's ready to help a team make a playoff push? At this point you just hope he gets enough innings in to get a solid evaluation on him.


Being loyal to McG also shows other Jays players and the rest of the league the class of the organization. I'm sure that will be noticed when current Jays players are negociating new contracts as well as free agents.

They've been plenty loyal, he could have spent the last two years rehabbing without a paycheque or on a minor league deal. The extension was just dumb.


He'd cost more than $1.5M if those are the numbers expected.

That's the point. No one expected anything remotely close to those numbers.


But you're right. Clearly this deal will bankrupt the team.

Yes, that's exactly what I said.

But no you're probably right, guaranteeing 2% of your payroll over the next two years to dead weight was an awesome idea, even if it was an absolutely unnecessary risk. That 2% musta been what Jonah Keri wrote all those fancy words about!

wamco
04-10-2012, 12:37 AM
snider hurt finger on dive, d2d

Krylian
04-10-2012, 08:17 AM
Morrow seems to be handling it alright. When has Morrow had labrum and rotator cuff surgery, as well as plantar faciatis (sp?). Compare apples to apples.




What about anything he's done since like, 2008 would indicate he's ready to help a team make a playoff push? At this point you just hope he gets enough innings in to get a solid evaluation on him.

He's shown that his stuff is coming back and if it takes a small investment to hang on to it for a bit longer you do it.



They've been plenty loyal, he could have spent the last two years rehabbing without a paycheque or on a minor league deal. The extension was just dumb.

You must be a Rogers employee with that cheap attitude. But I'm not so sure they can do that. There's only a certain period of time that a player can stay on the DL before needing to be re-activated and either put on the roster, or waived...I believe this conversation was going on last summer. Oh, I'm sure there are ways to manipulate the system so you can do it, but that would be pretty classless if all you're trying to do is keep someone in the minors.




That's the point. No one expected anything remotely close to those numbers.


Which is why he got $3M instead of $20M.



Yes, that's exactly what I said.

But no you're probably right, guaranteeing 2% of your payroll over the next two years to dead weight was an awesome idea, even if it was an absolutely unnecessary risk. That 2% musta been what Jonah Keri wrote all those fancy words about!

The front office clearly doesn't think he's dead weight...and many fans don't think he's dead weight either.

But you keep staying upset about the signing...it really is a big deal and worth agonizing over.

Big Hurt
04-10-2012, 08:29 AM
Diabetics need a lot more time to heal from injury then normal people, Cut the guy some slack, he will be back.

I think you are mixing up SPs

Krylian
04-10-2012, 08:44 AM
I think you are mixing up SPs

McGowan and Morrow both have diabetes.

KaiserSose
04-10-2012, 09:21 AM
Morrow seems to be handling it alright.



What about anything he's done since like, 2008 would indicate he's ready to help a team make a playoff push? At this point you just hope he gets enough innings in to get a solid evaluation on him.



They've been plenty loyal, he could have spent the last two years rehabbing without a paycheque or on a minor league deal. The extension was just dumb.


That's the point. No one expected anything remotely close to those numbers.



Yes, that's exactly what I said.

But no you're probably right, guaranteeing 2% of your payroll over the next two years to dead weight was an awesome idea, even if it was an absolutely unnecessary risk. That 2% musta been what Jonah Keri wrote all those fancy words about!

Completely agree with you. The fascination some posters in this forum have with Dustin McGowan is mind-boggling.

Oh and lol at anyone who says this "shows the Jays organization is loyal to their players". That means nothing to anyone but McGowan. You think some FA is thinking "Wow, the Yankees are offering more money but damn.....you see the way the Jays took care of McGowan! Where do I sign?" No one cares!

nithanyo
04-10-2012, 09:21 AM
Whats new with Dustin "setback" Mcgowan? Think AA was a little premature on the contract extension? lol

lorneg34
04-10-2012, 09:43 AM
why is everyone ripping on McGowan or the extension....its for a couple years and its for PEANUTS lol. its a super low risk high reward contract and everyone knows that. if anything id be more worried/mad about trading Scrabbles/edwin jackson away for colby rasmus. cause from what i see RASMUS is awful at the plate lol he looks terrible.

mcgowan was a great contract. if he stays injured or doesnt perform who the hell cares, if he DOES perform since his pure stuff is just AS GOOD as morrow if not better then it was a cheap sign (like bautista contract) NO im not comparing the two relax, what i am saying is if mcgowan can become a SOLID consistent #3 starter and get you 10-14 wins with a mid 3 era and get you anywhere near 150+ innings then he becomes a STEAL #3

Krylian
04-10-2012, 09:51 AM
why is everyone ripping on McGowan or the extension....its for a couple years and its for PEANUTS lol. its a super low risk high reward contract and everyone knows that. if anything id be more worried/mad about trading Scrabbles/edwin jackson away for colby rasmus. cause from what i see RASMUS is awful at the plate lol he looks terrible.

mcgowan was a great contract. if he stays injured or doesnt perform who the hell cares, if he DOES perform since his pure stuff is just AS GOOD as morrow if not better then it was a cheap sign (like bautista contract) NO im not comparing the two relax, what i am saying is if mcgowan can become a SOLID consistent #3 starter and get you 10-14 wins with a mid 3 era and get you anywhere near 150+ innings then he becomes a STEAL #3

They're the same clowns that wanted that bad Prince Fielder contract in Toronto.

Even as a reliever, $1.5M a year is miniscule.

2009mvp
04-10-2012, 11:25 AM
Minuscule isn't the point. The point is it's something, as in 3M more than it needed to be. Again, the only reason the extend him at this point was for fear that he'd blow the doors off this year and command huge money in free agency. And what exactly were the odds on that happening? Less than him totally flaming out I bet.

the_jon
04-10-2012, 11:36 AM
Minuscule isn't the point. The point is it's something, as in 3M more than it needed to be. Again, the only reason the extend him at this point was for fear that he'd blow the doors off this year and command huge money in free agency. And what exactly were the odds on that happening? Less than him totally flaming out I bet.
Man just shut up. You clearly don't know a ****ing thing about the situation.

KaiserSose
04-10-2012, 12:04 PM
why is everyone ripping on McGowan or the extension....its for a couple years and its for PEANUTS lol. its a super low risk high reward contract and everyone knows that. if anything id be more worried/mad about trading Scrabbles/edwin jackson away for colby rasmus. cause from what i see RASMUS is awful at the plate lol he looks terrible.

mcgowan was a great contract. if he stays injured or doesnt perform who the hell cares, if he DOES perform since his pure stuff is just AS GOOD as morrow if not better then it was a cheap sign (like bautista contract) NO im not comparing the two relax, what i am saying is if mcgowan can become a SOLID consistent #3 starter and get you 10-14 wins with a mid 3 era and get you anywhere near 150+ innings then he becomes a STEAL #3

It's the equivalent of buying a lottery ticket. You aren't going to win but it's cheap. Just because it doesn't bankrupt the team doesn't mean it is a suckers bet.

lol "if he becomes a 3"? How about if his porcelain body doesn't break down. The guy can't even be a 5 if he is on the DL.


They're the same clowns that wanted that bad Prince Fielder contract in Toronto.

Even as a reliever, $1.5M a year is miniscule.

I'm pretty sure the people that wanted Fielder are the same that love the McGowan extension. They are both wastes of money.

pebloemer
04-10-2012, 12:07 PM
Is it too early to give Hutchinson a look for a few starts?

mkcavy
04-10-2012, 12:29 PM
Everyone's right, risking $1.5M a season on McGowan is a waste. The organization was much better when it was spending $1.5M on guys like Tomo Ohka.

the_jon
04-10-2012, 01:22 PM
What difference do you think the 1.5 makes anyways? He was already getting paid 600k a year to rehab, what's another 1 mill? Besides where else would we have spent the money? Our payroll isn't getting that much higher in the next 2 years we don't need to cut corners. This isn't the 70's.

2009mvp
04-10-2012, 01:36 PM
Man just shut up. You clearly don't know a ****ing thing about the situation.

:laugh: And you do? Get the **** outta here

mtf
04-10-2012, 11:13 PM
I'm pretty sure the people that wanted Fielder are the same that love the McGowan extension. They are both wastes of money.

It's apples and oranges.

Signing Prince Fielder is a huge commitment to one player for nearly a decade.

Signing Dustin McGowan (while oddly timed) is an extremely small commitment. It's almost insignificant.

I'm not sure why some people are blowing this McGowan thing out of proportion. I'm sure signing McGowan is not going to dictate Blue Jays front-office decisions on other players.

Just to put it into perspective, Darren Oliver was signed for $4.5M/yr, that's 3 times as much Dustin McGowan. Neither are significant investments.

nithanyo
04-11-2012, 12:47 AM
It's apples and oranges.

Signing Prince Fielder is a huge commitment to one player for nearly a decade.

Signing Dustin McGowan (while oddly timed) is an extremely small commitment. It's almost insignificant.

I'm not sure why some people are blowing this McGowan thing out of proportion. I'm sure signing McGowan is not going to dictate Blue Jays front-office decisions on other players.

Just to put it into perspective, Darren Oliver was signed for $4.5M/yr, that's 3 times as much Dustin McGowan. Neither are significant investments.

Darren Oliver is worth the money.

Sanyo
04-11-2012, 12:49 AM
It's apples and oranges.

Signing Prince Fielder is a huge commitment to one player for nearly a decade.

Signing Dustin McGowan (while oddly timed) is an extremely small commitment. It's almost insignificant.

I'm not sure why some people are blowing this McGowan thing out of proportion. I'm sure signing McGowan is not going to dictate Blue Jays front-office decisions on other players.

Just to put it into perspective, Darren Oliver was signed for $4.5M/yr, that's 3 times as much Dustin McGowan. Neither are significant investments.

Come on man, when are you going to make $4.5 million in your lifetime, let alone one year? Not a significant investment? I know Rogers is a huge company but millions are millions man. Don't say its not insignificant, it is to a ton of people...

mtf
04-11-2012, 01:24 AM
Darren Oliver is worth the money.

I didn't say he wasn't. I also didn't say McGowan was worth or wasn't worth the money he was given. I just said it's a small amount and not worth getting upset about.


Come on man, when are you going to make $4.5 million in your lifetime, let alone one year? Not a significant investment? I know Rogers is a huge company but millions are millions man. Don't say its not insignificant, it is to a ton of people...

What kind of comment is this. The money we're talking about is in relative terms within the world of baseball finances.

damadmonk
04-11-2012, 02:14 AM
I wonder if L-Carnitine would help McG. I've been reading up on it for health and came across this;


I am a 48 yr. female registered nurse from New Zealand. I have been taking L- Carnitine 300mg for 7 days to assist in weight loss after doing on-line research. Most of my 30 yr career in nursing has been as an operating theatre nurse because of this I suffer from plantar fascitis, first in my left foot resulting in a bony spur then in my right foot - no bony spur. This has been very painful, I have received many forms of treatment from orthopaedic surgeon i.e.: steroid injection to podiatrist etc. It has been very interesting to note that from Day 4 of taking L- carnitine that the usual level of daily pain has lessened considerably to zero even.

http://www.raysahelian.com/carnitine.html


It can do a bunch of other stuff including help for diabetics (type 2 at least).

1hardcore
04-11-2012, 02:16 AM
I wonder if Luis Perez should take a start ... He hasn't allowed a run yet :)


just to jam it abit here :P


Mcgowans time is running out though

Bubba54
04-11-2012, 03:29 AM
My thought process on McGowan is now non-existent.

If he comes back and pitches half decent great. But I don't sit here and go, damn I can't wait for him to get back or we need him back etc.

So this latest injury...I couldn't care less...

Halladay
04-11-2012, 06:42 AM
Worried about McGowans extension with a $75 million dollar payroll owned by one of the richest companies on the planet? really? They're paying McGowan with the pennies they found in the ashtray of their cars.

Valleyfella
04-11-2012, 07:37 AM
I wonder if Luis Perez should take a start ... He hasn't allowed a run yet :)


just to jam it abit here :P


Mcgowans time is running out though

Last night, AA was interviewed during the game and was vague about who might get the start April 21 when a 5th starter is needed. He's going to wait and see who does what, both with the Jays and in the minors. My guess is that either Perez or Carlos gets the start or they reward a guy like Hutchison with a single start just to see how he handles it.

lexecutioner
04-11-2012, 08:43 AM
In my opinion Dustin's extension is far more than what the $ indicates. Dude has been with us since the beginning of his career. He gave us something to watch out for when he pitches. When he was down Dustin didn't just quit and give up he worked his *** of those injuries to prove the Jays he is worth something. Yes we can all argue about if the extension is a waste or not but for me Dustin getting that extension is alot more than just the numbers. It also puts the jays in the good organization aura that it will take care of its players especially those that work hard. Its not like Mcgowan is just sitting at home I followed him extensively even when he is out and I know what hell that dude went trough. $3million is not overpaying for Dustin not one bit.

Kenny Powders
04-11-2012, 10:43 AM
Worried about McGowans extension with a $75 million dollar payroll owned by one of the richest companies on the planet? really? They're paying McGowan with the pennies they found in the ashtray of their cars.

It's in some people's nature to complain, no matter the situation.

Kelly Gruber
04-11-2012, 10:56 AM
Kind of peculiar to sign him to that contract as pretty much everyone knew he would likely not be able to stay healthy anymore, but I don't see how it's a big concern either.

Halladay
04-11-2012, 11:40 AM
It's in some people's nature to complain, no matter the situation.

I don't blame them for complaining. Lets remember, every dime spent on payroll comes directly from our pockets right? right??

StealingSigns
04-11-2012, 09:23 PM
I don't blame them for complaining. Lets remember, every dime spent on payroll comes directly from our pockets right? right??

Quit being so logical :pity:

2009mvp
04-11-2012, 09:28 PM
:laugh2: So complaining about Rogers not ponying up cash=dumb, and complaining about AA wasting the cash he has also=dumb? Got it. That makes total sense.

StealingSigns
04-11-2012, 09:32 PM
You make it sound like this is a financially crippling decision they made, which it clearly is far from.

2009mvp
04-11-2012, 09:36 PM
Signing me for 2 years/2M wouldn't be a financially crippling decision either, but it sure would be dumb.

StealingSigns
04-11-2012, 09:51 PM
Signing me for 2 years/2M wouldn't be a financially crippling decision either, but it sure would be dumb.

I dunno, do you have a 96 mph fastball, pinpoint control, and unbelievable movement on your pitches? It could be a steal.

2009mvp
04-11-2012, 10:01 PM
Let's go lock up Mark Prior and Rich Harden on multi year deals while we're at it. Those could be steals too.

DeRozan10
04-11-2012, 10:02 PM
The McGowan extension is an absolutely brilliant deal.

Blows my mind that some people would even remotely disagree that

mtf
04-11-2012, 10:15 PM
:laugh2: So complaining about Rogers not ponying up cash=dumb, and complaining about AA wasting the cash he has also=dumb? Got it. That makes total sense.

Again, you're comparing apples to oranges.

The decision of whether or not to sign Dustin McGowan to $1.5M/2Y is in no way related to the decision not to sign Prince Fielder to $20-25M/8-10Y. No matter how much you to try to connect them, it's simply not logical.

I'm not even defending the success or failure of the McGowan contract, because it's too insignificant for me to care, I'm defending common sense in saying that how Anthopoulos wishes to play inconsequential financial gambles on players with tons of potential is not an issue worth debating about.

I don't see this deal binding the hands of the organization going forward, and crippling their chances of landing players of significance (or even insignificance), so how is this a relevant concern to anyone?

You can't win them all, and he hasn't even lost this one yet. Even if he does, it won't damage the organization in any way.

YUMYUM
04-11-2012, 10:17 PM
People (many of us I'm sure) go to Casino's and gamble on less than 50/50 odds that yield an equal return only when they win. So if McGowan is a servicable pitcher for even one year of the next two, it's well worth the gamble, even if only to avoid another Chris Carpenter story. Jays are doing this for themselves not McGowan, makes it sound nice when you call it loyalty.

2009mvp
04-11-2012, 10:43 PM
Again, you're comparing apples to oranges.

The decision of whether or not to sign Dustin McGowan to $1.5M/2Y is in no way related to the decision not to sign Prince Fielder to $20-25M/8-10Y. No matter how much you to try to connect them, it's simply not logical.

Connect what? I didn't specify that I was talking about $100k or $100M and I damn sure didn't bring up Fielder. I'm talking about 'payroll constraints' in general, meaning that every dollar wasted is a dollar that could be have been used more effectively elsewhere.


I'm not even defending the success or failure of the McGowan contract, because it's too insignificant for me to care, I'm defending common sense in saying that how Anthopoulos wishes to play inconsequential financial gambles on players with tons of potential is not an issue worth debating about.

I don't see this deal binding the hands of the organization going forward, and crippling their chances of landing players of significance (or even insignificance), so how is this a relevant concern to anyone?

Lots of assuming going on here. ~2% of your payroll is hardly a huge number but I also wouldn't call it insignificant.


You can't win them all, and he hasn't even lost this one yet. Even if he does, it won't damage the organization in any way.

If he ends up burning 3M on a guy who contributes nothing how can you say that that doesn't damage the organization? Let's try and remember the margin of error the Jays are working with in this division, every little bit counts.

There seems to be some kind of misconception that the extension was needed to keep McGowan around. Let's all try to remember that he was under contract for the rest of the season anyways, at which point you would reevaluate the situation. Again I ask, what kind of 2012 season would it have taken for McGowan to price himself out of the Jays plans and how likely was he to ever achieve that, keeping in mind A) just how few innings this guy has thrown in the past 4 years, B) his laundry list of surgically repaired body parts and C) the fact that as the only organization he's known and the one who's stuck with him through so many surgeries I've lost count, the Jays would presumably have the upper-hand if he hit the market. It's not that it's a huge extension, it's that it was a completely unnecessary one.

StealingSigns
04-11-2012, 11:07 PM
Sooo... Are you saying AA shouldn't be taking risks (albeit a small one financially) not unlike the other top GM's in the game?

2009mvp
04-11-2012, 11:18 PM
Not at all. The Bautista contract was a risk, the Escobar/Rasmus/Lawrie trades were a risk and those obviously turned out fantastic. I'm saying that in this case, realistically the risk far outweighs the reward.

StealingSigns
04-11-2012, 11:24 PM
Not at all. The Bautista contract was a risk, the Escobar/Rasmus/Lawrie trades were a risk and those obviously turned out fantastic. I'm saying that in this case, realistically the risk far outweighs the reward.

I'm still stinging from the Jays letting Chris Carpenter go. I admit it.

2009mvp
04-11-2012, 11:39 PM
Which is fine, but like I wrote in the post above no extension didn't automatically mean waving goodbye to McGowan at the end of the year.

StealingSigns
04-11-2012, 11:40 PM
Look, here's the thing.

The guy battles back from what was seemingly an insurmountable injury. He shows in ST that he is holding up. Numerous scouts, Jays coaches, and media report that he has the filthiest stuff of any Jays pitcher in the spring.

Was it a risk, considering his history? Absolutely. But the extension isn't CRAZY like Prior's was (8 mill over two years in 2006). I guess, if I'm making the calculated risk, I take it. But that's just me...

2009mvp
04-12-2012, 12:03 AM
Look, here's the thing.

The guy battles back from what was seemingly an insurmountable injury. He shows in ST that he is holding up. Numerous scouts, Jays coaches, and media report that he has the filthiest stuff of any Jays pitcher in the spring.

Was it a risk, considering his history? Absolutely. But the extension isn't CRAZY like Prior's was (8 mill over two years in 2006). I guess, if I'm making the calculated risk, I take it. But that's just me...

Didn't Klaw call him a shadow of his former self (and worse)? Not that he's the end all be all, but you wouldn't expect the coaches to be overly objective (at least not publicly) and the media members aren't exactly qualified to deliver a scouting report beyond reading a radar gun.

StealingSigns
04-12-2012, 12:23 AM
Didn't Klaw call him a shadow of his former self (and worse)? Not that he's the end all be all, but you wouldn't expect the coaches to be overly objective (at least not publicly) and the media members aren't exactly qualified to deliver a scouting report beyond reading a radar gun.

Yep, Klaw did have some unflattering words for him, I do recall that. Klaw was one of the few (if only) scouts/media personnel that reviewed him negatively. Klaw isn't the "end all be all" but he is definitely one of the upper echelon, without a doubt...

I guess I didn't put it succinctly before. You are right about the coaches. But how many scouts and talent evaluators were watching McGowan during ST? I'm thinking (assuming?) lots, if we have come to know anything about AA. He sends squads to the nether regions of developing countries scouring for data on 16 year old kids.

I'm thinking any other top GM comes to the same conclusion as AA did if he were placed in the same predicament.

If this were a Prior type of commitment, I would be scratching my head, just as you are. I guess I'm not seeing the big deal...

nithanyo
04-12-2012, 12:58 AM
Im probably alone on this but we could have used the money elsewhere **cough, Manny**. If were talking bout gambling and risks why not Manny? Hes woulda cost a fraction of $2 million.

I heard Damon is signing with the Indians for 500k. He would be a nice gamble. Anything better than Fransisco or old man Vizquel

StealingSigns
04-12-2012, 01:29 AM
Im probably alone on this but we could have used the money elsewhere **cough, Manny**. If were talking bout gambling and risks why not Manny? Hes woulda cost a fraction of $2 million.

I heard Damon is signing with the Indians for 500k. He would be a nice gamble. Anything better than Fransisco or old man Vizquel

Manny wanted the Jays. He stated as much in the media. The Jays didn't want Manny, and understandably so.

To put things in perspective, McGowan will likely be back and on the attack before Manny is legally allowed to take a swing this season, circus antics aside...

fatkev78
04-12-2012, 03:06 AM
Didn't Klaw call him a shadow of his former self (and worse)? Not that he's the end all be all, but you wouldn't expect the coaches to be overly objective (at least not publicly) and the media members aren't exactly qualified to deliver a scouting report beyond reading a radar gun.

Law based that on one start.

...pretty surprised you guys are still discussing this, but whatever, that's what the forum's for I guess.

mtf
04-12-2012, 04:18 AM
Not at all. The Bautista contract was a risk, the Escobar/Rasmus/Lawrie trades were a risk and those obviously turned out fantastic. I'm saying that in this case, realistically the risk far outweighs the reward.

Looking at it from what we can logically assume is Anthopoulos' point of view, he purchased more team control of McGowan at a low price. Perhaps you think the price was high relative to the asset, but in general terms losing $3M isn't going to even put a dent in the budget.

As for the reward, still looking at this from Anthopoulos' presumed point of view, it was potentially quite high. They obviously felt as though there was still value in McGowan and significant potential.

Despite yet another setback, there is no proof that Anthopoulos (if these basic assumptions are correct) is wrong. I don't see how this can be seen as a real risk at all, and further more, how can the potential reward can outweigh this perceived risk.

adid727
04-12-2012, 10:38 AM
I hope i am wrong, but every time you hear a pitcher's shoulder acting up just because his foot hurts, you know you are in big trouble.

KaiserSose
04-12-2012, 01:58 PM
I dunno, do you have a 96 mph fastball, pinpoint control, and unbelievable movement on your pitches? It could be a steal.

McGowan doesn't either so why is this relevant. At least he could probably stay healthy.

Krylian
04-12-2012, 02:04 PM
McGowan doesn't either so why is this relevant. At least he could probably stay healthy.

He got up to 97 last year.

He has very good sink on hid FB when he keeps it down.

He has never had pinpoint control.

riderfan60
04-12-2012, 07:38 PM
Yep, Klaw did have some unflattering words for him, I do recall that. Klaw was one of the few (if only) scouts/media personnel that reviewed him negatively. Klaw isn't the "end all be all" but he is definitely one of the upper echelon, without a doubt...

I guess I didn't put it succinctly before. You are right about the coaches. But how many scouts and talent evaluators were watching McGowan during ST? I'm thinking (assuming?) lots, if we have come to know anything about AA. He sends squads to the nether regions of developing countries scouring for data on 16 year old kids.

I'm thinking any other top GM comes to the same conclusion as AA did if he were placed in the same predicament.

If this were a Prior type of commitment, I would be scratching my head, just as you are. I guess I'm not seeing the big deal...

I agree!

Not sure why there's any fuss about the contract. We pay $600K in 2012, $1.5M in 2013 and 2014, we have an option in 2015 at a a very reasonable cost if Dustin's healthy. Low-risk/high reward contract. Let's get real, there's not much downside here.

KaiserSose
04-13-2012, 09:17 AM
He got up to 97 last year.

He has very good sink on hid FB when he keeps it down.

He has never had pinpoint control.

Velocity is basically meaningless. Plenty of pitchers can hit mid 90's with a random fastball. Also his velocity has dropped off since all his surgeries.

Also none of this matters is he cannot stay healthy.

Rotator
04-13-2012, 10:01 AM
Haven't read the whole thread, but come on, who cares that they signed him for 3 years. its a total of 3 mill bucks, pocket change for an mlb team. Man, draft picks out of high school get more money than this and they have just as much chance of making it as mcgowen does.

Converged
04-13-2012, 01:23 PM
Haven't read the whole thread, but come on, who cares that they signed him for 3 years. its a total of 3 mill bucks, pocket change for an mlb team. Man, draft picks out of high school get more money than this and they have just as much chance of making it as mcgowen does.

Exactly, it's no risk-high reward. We have bench players making more money than this and no question that a healthy McGowan as 5th in the rotation is a bigger benefit to this team than a bench player.

ah nuts
04-13-2012, 02:15 PM
Yep, Klaw did have some unflattering words for him, I do recall that. Klaw was one of the few (if only) scouts/media personnel that reviewed him negatively. Klaw isn't the "end all be all" but he is definitely one of the upper echelon, without a doubt...
.

not a big Klaw fan. Basically he is good at telling you what he sees, but nothing special at reading between the lines... like a lot of guys here.

which brings to mcgowan's ST, wouldn't one expect him to be a little behind or slow to get going??

I mean besides his past, this is the first winter he stayed inactivate in years.

Toxeryll
04-13-2012, 04:45 PM
#BlueJays Farrell adds McGowan on schedule to begin throwing program next week.

twitter (https://twitter.com/#!/MikeCormack/status/190897020846878720)

Krylian
04-14-2012, 11:39 AM
Good to hear.

Hope he gets back and puts some solid innings together for the team and shuts up all the whiners and haters.

Krylian
04-14-2012, 11:44 AM
Velocity is basically meaningless. Plenty of pitchers can hit mid 90's with a random fastball. Also his velocity has dropped off since all his surgeries.

Also none of this matters is he cannot stay healthy.

He's been rehabbing for almost 3 years...he has a foot injury in the spring and people get all bent out of shapr like his arm fell off.

Sure it's fallen off....but he's still building his arm strength back up. How do you know he's reach his full velocity? Mid-90's is PLENTY good even if that's where he stops.

You're baffling...but that's ok. This board would be boring otherwise.

KaiserSose
04-16-2012, 09:37 AM
He's been rehabbing for almost 3 years...he has a foot injury in the spring and people get all bent out of shapr like his arm fell off.

Sure it's fallen off....but he's still building his arm strength back up. How do you know he's reach his full velocity? Mid-90's is PLENTY good even if that's where he stops.

You're baffling...but that's ok. This board would be boring otherwise.

Why am I baffling? Peoples obsession with McGowan is baffling if anything. The guy has had multiple shoulder surgeries and a knee surgery and can't stay healthy. Plus you are assuming he sits in the mid 90's which is a lol assumption by you.

Krylian
04-16-2012, 11:15 AM
Why am I baffling? Peoples obsession with McGowan is baffling if anything. The guy has had multiple shoulder surgeries and a knee surgery and can't stay healthy. Plus you are assuming he sits in the mid 90's which is a lol assumption by you.

How is that a lol assumption? Did you not watch any of his outings last year...when he got to T.O. he was anywhere from 91-96. Also, let's remember that when Janssen had his labrum surgery it took him 2 years AFTER he got back to get his velocity all the way back. That's why you're baffling...you were likely a McGowan hater from before and this is just a bit more ammo for you. But that's fine. I'm more than willing to give him time considering how far he's already come back and I have faith. I hope McGowan shoves it down the throat of every hater out there. And if he doesn't, he was worth giving the opportunity to. Giving up on guys when they get hurt if classless.

KaiserSose
04-16-2012, 02:09 PM
How is that a lol assumption? Did you not watch any of his outings last year...when he got to T.O. he was anywhere from 91-96. Also, let's remember that when Janssen had his labrum surgery it took him 2 years AFTER he got back to get his velocity all the way back. That's why you're baffling...you were likely a McGowan hater from before and this is just a bit more ammo for you. But that's fine. I'm more than willing to give him time considering how far he's already come back and I have faith. I hope McGowan shoves it down the throat of every hater out there. And if he doesn't, he was worth giving the opportunity to. Giving up on guys when they get hurt if classless.

I'm a McGowan hater? Are you for real? Find a post where I hated on him. I'm just realistic. I want him to have success. We are all Jays fans you realize?

Giving up on guys when they get hurt is classless? What planet are you from? They've been paying him ~ a million dollars the last few years to do nothing but rehab.

Bombtista
04-16-2012, 02:14 PM
Why am I baffling? Peoples obsession with McGowan is baffling if anything. The guy has had multiple shoulder surgeries and a knee surgery and can't stay healthy. Plus you are assuming he sits in the mid 90's which is a lol assumption by you.

If you watched him pitch last season you would also know he is still in the mid 90's

WhatSayYou
04-16-2012, 03:08 PM
Yeah last year his avg fastball was harder than Romero's average fastball, I think it was like 92 or something

2009mvp
04-16-2012, 03:48 PM
When did velocity become the concern though? The issues (well, on top of actually keeping him healthy) with a guy coming off reconstructive surgery are A) the effectiveness of the slider that was by far his best pitch prior to all these injuries and B) command. Lots of guys can fire 93-94 fastballs, few become effective big league starters.

town123
04-16-2012, 05:07 PM
I for one am looking forward to McG tossing his stuff for the Jays this year. If it works out.... great. IF not... oh well.

His stuff is comparable to Chris Carpenter, and so is his medical history.... nuff said

WhatSayYou
04-16-2012, 05:13 PM
When did velocity become the concern though? The issues (well, on top of actually keeping him healthy) with a guy coming off reconstructive surgery are A) the effectiveness of the slider that was by far his best pitch prior to all these injuries and B) command. Lots of guys can fire 93-94 fastballs, few become effective big league starters.

Agreed, just disputing the poster who questioned his velocity on his fb

Krylian
04-16-2012, 11:21 PM
A quote after McGowan's first game back last year after being gone for more than 2 years...from a slider that Law was not impressed with this spring training. Spring Training folks!


Dustin McGowan struck out Darnell McDonald on a slider that would make Dave Stieb jealous.

http://mopupduty.com/dustin-mcgowan-is-a-stud/

Check the link...a couple of clips showing a FB at 93 and a great looking changeup he got Crawford to chase. The stuff certainly looked there. But yeah...let's give up on him. People who claim to be realistic aren't actually watching him pitch...cause based on his stuff, there's no reason to be anything but optimistic. Dude has a sore foot. His arm hasn't fallen off again.

craigerlee
04-16-2012, 11:33 PM
A quote after McGowan's first game back last year after being gone for more than 2 years...from a slider that Law was not impressed with this spring training. Spring Training folks!



http://mopupduty.com/dustin-mcgowan-is-a-stud/

Check the link...a couple of clips showing a FB at 93 and a great looking changeup he got Crawford to chase. The stuff certainly looked there. But yeah...let's give up on him. People who claim to be realistic aren't actually watching him pitch...cause based on his stuff, there's no reason to be anything but optimistic. Dude has a sore foot. His arm hasn't fallen off again.

I'm all for giving Dustin every opportunity, as 1.5M a year for the next 2 years is really not that big of an investment to keep him in a Jays uniform and see what he can do. However how much weight do you put in Callum Hughson's scouting of his slider? This isn't really the go to guy on scouting pitchers. I would think Law would be the better opinion to trust in this situation.

Krylian
04-17-2012, 12:18 AM
I'm all for giving Dustin every opportunity, as 1.5M a year for the next 2 years is really not that big of an investment to keep him in a Jays uniform and see what he can do. However how much weight do you put in Callum Hughson's scouting of his slider? This isn't really the go to guy on scouting pitchers. I would think Law would be the better opinion to trust in this situation.

Normally, I'd agree. But I watched his comeback game and remember commenting on how good his pitches looked and how much movement he still had. I was worried about him losing life on his pitches, but they didn't lack a thing.

The problem with Law is that he watched McGowan once near the beginning of Spring training and based his report on that. These guys are stretching themselves out, getting their arm stength back, working on their touch...it's hardly an accurate representation of what he's really going to be like once he's in mid-season form.

I just wish people would actually watch the games, and make jusgements based on what they see.

The only question I have about McGowan is whether he'll be able to get his stamina back to being able to go 6-7-8 innings as a starter. If not, then he'll have to be moved to the pen...but even then, the stuff is there to be very useful.

He's gonna surprise.

craigerlee
04-17-2012, 12:51 AM
Normally, I'd agree. But I watched his comeback game and remember commenting on how good his pitches looked and how much movement he still had. I was worried about him losing life on his pitches, but they didn't lack a thing.

The problem with Law is that he watched McGowan once near the beginning of Spring training and based his report on that. These guys are stretching themselves out, getting their arm stength back, working on their touch...it's hardly an accurate representation of what he's really going to be like once he's in mid-season form.

I just wish people would actually watch the games, and make jusgements based on what they see.

The only question I have about McGowan is whether he'll be able to get his stamina back to being able to go 6-7-8 innings as a starter. If not, then he'll have to be moved to the pen...but even then, the stuff is there to be very useful.

He's gonna surprise.

Precisely how many games have you seen Mcgowan pitch this season? You don't think Law saw a few of Mcgowan's starts on TV last year just like you? MLBTV does exist. I watched the games last year, and really didn't think his stuff was near as a good as it was in 2007, not just his velocity, just the overall dirtyness of his pitches. But I'm no expert on these things, and that's why I look for opinions like Laws.

2009mvp
04-17-2012, 02:04 AM
Normally, I'd agree. But I watched his comeback game and remember commenting on how good his pitches looked and how much movement he still had. I was worried about him losing life on his pitches, but they didn't lack a thing.

The problem with Law is that he watched McGowan once near the beginning of Spring training and based his report on that. These guys are stretching
themselves out, getting their arm stength back, working on their touch...it's hardly an accurate representation of what he's really going to be like once he's in mid-season form.

I just wish people would actually watch the games, and make jusgements based on what they see.

The only question I have about McGowan is whether he'll be able to get his stamina back to being able to go 6-7-8 innings as a starter. If not, then he'll have to be moved to the pen...but even then, the stuff is there to be very useful.

He's gonna surprise.

It was mid-March, and it's tough to make excuses for criticism like 'soft-breaking slider that you can see pretty early out of his hand.' Probably no coincidence that he got shelled by the Yankees A-ball squad in a minor league game his next time out after that.

KaiserSose
04-17-2012, 11:13 AM
Just to clarify things, we got on the subject of fastball velocity which I agree means very little because I lolled at some guys assertion that McGowan will get back to throwing in the mid to high 90's. His average fastball velocity has decreased almost 2 mph since his injury.

Krylian
04-17-2012, 12:43 PM
Just to clarify things, we got on the subject of fastball velocity which I agree means very little because I lolled at some guys assertion that McGowan will get back to throwing in the mid to high 90's. His average fastball velocity has decreased almost 2 mph since his injury.

He may or may not come all the way back with his velocity. I gave Casey Janssen as an example of another pitcher who had labrum surgery. Before his injury he topped out at 94...when get got back he was topping out at 91 or so...it took him 2 years after he got back to start getting back to topping out at 93-94. Thus, no one, not even you, knows if McGowan's velocity will get back. That's the velocity debate.

In terms of breaking stuff, control, etc....this too will take time and we don't know how much of it he'll get back. The issue I have is people completely discounting it and making these bold proclamations regarding his failure just cause they don't have the patience and won't even acknowledge that this takes time.

Krylian
04-17-2012, 12:46 PM
It was mid-March, and it's tough to make excuses for criticism like 'soft-breaking slider that you can see pretty early out of his hand.' Probably no coincidence that he got shelled by the Yankees A-ball squad in a minor league game his next time out after that.

Wasn't this around the same time his foot issues arose and his arm slot changed to overcompensate?

Krylian
04-17-2012, 01:00 PM
From early this spring...


“In the early days of spring training, John Farrell has been careful not to praise his pitchers after a short mound session against batters who behave like statues,” writes John Lott in the National Post. “But on Tuesday, the Toronto Blue Jays manager could not hold his reserve. It was a hot day and maybe the sunshine was getting to him. But Farrell had also just watched Dustin McGowan throw 25 pitches to five teammates, some of whom muttered about the filth the big right-hander was serving up.”

“The right-hander, catching people’s eye with his command and stuff, dazzled teammates Adam Lind, Kelly Johnson and Yunel Escobar with his slider and changeup, each of them taking turns walking out of the cage shaking his head,” writes Shi Davidi of Sportsnet.

“The fact that he was down in the strike zone, with the kind of power he had, with the heaviness to his fastball, the action to his secondary stuff – he was impressive today, there’s no doubt,” John Farrell said, as quoted by both pieces.

Toxeryll
04-18-2012, 01:53 AM
Dark horse candidate to start for #Jays on April 21? Jesse Chavez at triple-A Vegas. Farrell says converted reliever in mix, sitting 92-95


Others in mix: Carreno (on 8-days rest), Hutchison (on 6 days), Laffey (although he'll need an injury to be recalled in time)

twitter (https://twitter.com/#!/ShiDavidi/status/192354580082851840)

Krylian
04-19-2012, 06:34 PM
AA was just on PTS and they walked a bit about McGowan.

Says he's basically starting Spring Training from scratch. Expect 6 weeks.

Was up to 97 in spring with plus slider and changeup and good curve. Says he has the best stuff on the staff. And the plan is still for him to start 100%

Toxeryll
04-19-2012, 11:10 PM
this guy needs a break for once. its a shame hes always injured