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View Full Version : Are the OKC Thunder under achieving ?



Chronz
04-05-2012, 02:04 AM
First off let me state OKC is still a heavyweight but do we all agree on the following;

1) Ibaka is a better defender than Bosh
2) Perkins is a better defender than any center Miami has
3) Westbrook should be on par if not better than Chalmers defensively
4) Harden/Durant have improved as defenders.


So if all this is true, how on earth is Miami the better defensive team in terms of efficiency? Why isnt OKC an elite defensive team on par with the Celtics, Bulls, Heat? Dont they have the tools?

Cal827
04-05-2012, 02:11 AM
1) Bosh isn't as horrible defender as thought when he was in Toronto
2) Perkins is a product of a good defensive system (Boston with KG, Pierce, Allen, Rondo)
3) Chalmers is better due to help defenders. Lebron and Wade can excellent and elite defenders for their positions
4) Both have improved, but have their problems. Durant's "huge improvement" on defense is mentioned by the media basically so Lebron can't run away with the MVP trophy, which many of us think he won a lonng time ago.

HouRealCoach
04-05-2012, 02:56 AM
Using Miami as an example really answers your question... Any team that u are able to compare to them in terms of defense is a great defensive squad

& Miami only has Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Battier, Chalmers, & Haslem..

lakers4sho
04-05-2012, 02:59 AM
can it be due to coaching?

Ebbs
04-05-2012, 03:26 AM
LeBron is the best defender in the NBA? And the Miami zone does kill ball movement.

I would say maybe the Thunder coaching isn't where it needs to be.

Lakers + Giants
04-05-2012, 03:29 AM
Chronz, this seems more like a knock on OKC on your part. . . if anything, the clippers are under performing, honestly.

Jenceman
04-05-2012, 03:35 AM
While the Thunder have more defensive talent, the Heat give more effort. Defense is almost all effort.

Joshtd1
04-05-2012, 03:57 AM
A lot of it is due to coaching scheme IMO. Look at the Celts, they have the old folks in KG/PP/Allen starting, and a guy not necessarily known for his D in Bass, but they are still an elite defensive team, #1 in FG% allowed too I believe.

Ebbs
04-05-2012, 04:05 AM
I always thought of Bass as a solid player, including D? I thought that he had a better rep, maybe I'm wrong.

justinnum1
04-05-2012, 07:46 AM
Lebron james is that good on defense.

Miami D system of ball pressure, aggressive rotations, and protecting the paint perfectly suit is players.

When miami's d is on, and it rarely has been, they do a fantastic job of preventing points in the paint. Teams with multiple 3 pt shooters(dallas last year) or teams that just jack up a ton of 3's(magic this year) are best equipped to give miami fits over a long series.

But also, if you look at opp fg%, okc does rank slighlty better than miami(by like .2%)
but still...

Oh yea, that stat about opponent per or something, battier was ranks #2 behind iggy, and bron and wade are both in the top 7...Deng is like #9

-The heats d forces a lot of turnovers too

TylerSL
04-05-2012, 07:50 AM
We are better defensivly because we have Wade, Lebron, and Battier all on the same team. You also cant forget Haslem, Chalmers, Turriaf, even Bosh, and Miller when he is healthy (although he hasnt been). Half our team is very good defenders and good rebounders.

TylerSL
04-05-2012, 07:56 AM
Lebron james is that good on defense.

Miami D system of ball pressure, aggressive rotations, and protecting the paint perfectly suit is players.

When miami's d is on, and it rarely has been, they do a fantastic job of preventing points in the paint. Teams with multiple 3 pt shooters(dallas last year) or teams that just jack up a ton of 3's(magic this year) are best equipped to give miami fits over a long series.

But also, if you look at opp fg%, okc does rank slighlty better than miami(by like .2%)
but still...

I agree, to this point Miami's defense doesnt seem as good this year as it did last year. I havent looked at the stats so idk for sure, but it seems teams are scoring in the high 90's and 100's alot more this year. I blame the fast pace we play now, but that fast pace gets us alot of transition points as well, so its a double edged sword.

Then again, with the fast paced offense, even with the opposition scoring more, I trust Miami to be able to outscore them regardless if they score 100.

Carey
04-05-2012, 08:42 AM
Losing our best defender for 20 plus games will do that to you...

I do think this thread is warranted to an extent...Westbrook and Durant where horrid defensively to start the season, So was Ibaka's on ball defense. We also did less talking on defense. The last month KD and Russ have stepped it up on that end, Ibaka has played more under control and Russ has cut back on his gambling. We just held the Heat and Grizz under 40 percent from the field but lost because of inpatience on offense and turnovers.

Again what cant be understated is what not having Thabo did, he's imo the best perimeter defender in basketball, he takes the best perimeter offensive player whether its a pg, sg or small forward. Im happy where we currently are defensively but certaintly it has been worse.

NYMetros
04-05-2012, 09:02 AM
2) Perkins is a product of a good defensive system (Boston with KG, Pierce, Allen, Rondo)


Um, no.

KB-Pau-DH2012
04-05-2012, 09:36 AM
First off let me state OKC is still a heavyweight but do we all agree on the following;

1) Ibaka is a better defender than Bosh
2) Perkins is a better defender than any center Miami has
3) Westbrook should be on par if not better than Chalmers defensively
4) Harden/Durant have improved as defenders.


So if all this is true, how on earth is Miami the better defensive team in terms of efficiency? Why isnt OKC an elite defensive team on par with the Celtics, Bulls, Heat? Dont they have the tools?

There is a difference between individual defense and team defense. Individual defense comes in use for a one-possession stop (aka Metta World Peace), but championships come from team defense, and this is why I still don't think a team like the Thunder or Spurs will win the title, because their team defense is still too inconsistent.

If you had to label and identity for the Thunder and Spurs, you would say that those two teams are more offensive-minded than defensive minded. The other title contenders like the Bulls, Heat, Lakers and even the Celtics are defensive-minded teams first, then offensive-minded.

YoungOne
04-05-2012, 09:45 AM
I always thought of Bass as a solid player, including D? I thought that he had a better rep, maybe I'm wrong.

he is not that good defensively, believe me.

Mr_Amaziing
04-05-2012, 10:26 AM
My opinion is lack of coaching

Baller1
04-05-2012, 11:29 AM
Coasting off talent, simple as that. No basketball IQ and **** coaching.

tr3ymill3r
04-05-2012, 11:59 AM
Really after one game we're going to have this discussion. The unwritten rule is you have to be better than any team by 10 points when playing on the road. When in OKC the Thunder dismantled the Heat, but when in Miami the Heat won by less than 10. Clearly the Thunder can compete with the Heat both home and away. In a 7 game series, the Thunder would win because they aren't afraid of going to Miami, OKC fans are wild and will probably get in LeBrons head.

justinnum1
04-05-2012, 12:08 PM
Really after one game we're going to have this discussion. The unwritten rule is you have to be better than any team by 10 points when playing on the road. When in OKC the Thunder dismantled the Heat, but when in Miami the Heat won by less than 10. Clearly the Thunder can compete with the Heat both home and away. In a 7 game series, the Thunder would win because they aren't afraid of going to Miami, OKC fans are wild and will probably get in LeBrons head.

:facepalm:

worst logic ever

chicago lulz
04-05-2012, 12:10 PM
Not too different from the Clippers. Underachieving because the coaches at the helm.

justinnum1
04-05-2012, 12:18 PM
seriously brooks is an idiot, all i heard him saying last night was play tough and physical, you guys have to play tough, thats the only thing i heard. Nothing about westbrick stop shooting, you have shot 30% agasint the heat the last 5 games and yet you still take 25 shots? lol

macc
04-05-2012, 12:30 PM
The Thunder have the 2nd best record in the NBA and the OP is wondering if they are underachieving? lol, sorry, some of these threads just make me laugh.

Chronz
04-05-2012, 01:10 PM
The Thunder have the 2nd best record in the NBA and the OP is wondering if they are underachieving? lol, sorry, some of these threads just make me laugh.

Do you know the definition of the word underachieving?

Chronz
04-05-2012, 01:11 PM
My opinion is lack of coaching
Ever since they lost Ron Adams they havent had the same defensive success but they are much better offensively.

Chronz
04-05-2012, 01:14 PM
Chronz, this seems more like a knock on OKC on your part. . . if anything, the clippers are under performing, honestly.
Yes this is a knock against them, Clippers are another subject that we can disagree on.

Carey
04-05-2012, 01:23 PM
Ever since they lost Ron Adams they havent had the same defensive success but they are much better offensively.

True, but also look at how many defensive categories they are rated very high in. I think they could be as good as any team in the league defensively, they havent achieved quite that status so you could say they've underachieved but alot of categories suggest their in the upper echelon included their play over the last month.

MrfadeawayJB
04-05-2012, 01:58 PM
While the Thunder have more defensive talent, the Heat give more effort. Defense is almost all effort.

This. Until Durant becomes a elite defender like James is, it just wont happen. Role players follow the footsteps of the star

Chronz
04-05-2012, 02:12 PM
True, but also look at how many defensive categories they are rated very high in. I think they could be as good as any team in the league defensively, they havent achieved quite that status so you could say they've underachieved but alot of categories suggest their in the upper echelon included their play over the last month.

Over the last month the Heat have had one of the worst offenses in the league, Ive seen the Thunder defend like madmen some nights, but given their talent particularly with their bigs on top of their athleticism on the wings and you have to wonder why they arent among the league leaders.

Looking at the 4 factor ranks;

Thunder rank 4th in eFG% allowed (above the Heat and Lakers)
23rd in Turnovers
22nd in Reb%
15th in FT/A

So they are good at forcing misses but they are mediocre to bad at everything else. On the year they defend 1.2 Pts above league average in Defensive Efficiency, good for a Top12 ranking. Compared to the Heat (who have slipped some from last year) they arent elite. I would think given their athleticism and intimidating frontline they would have the talent to do it. Maybe they are starting to turn the corner, which bodes well for the playoffs.

jneises21
04-05-2012, 02:13 PM
Of their top 4 players the oldest is 23... None of them have even hit their prime. They are going to be fine.

Chronz
04-05-2012, 02:16 PM
Hollinger's thoughts on Westbrooks defense vs Miami

Look, there's no way to sugarcoat this: Russell Westbrook's defense was unacceptable, and for the first 18 minutes of the game in particular it was just unrelentingly awful. Even as Oklahoma City built a lead, rewinding the tape showed that virtually every Miami basket came as a result of either poor effort, bad gambles or outright confusion on his part. It's his fourth season; this stuff shouldn't be happening. About the lone aggressive defensive play Westbrook made in the first half was a dangerous fast-break takedown of James that should have seen him sent off and may yet get him suspended.

His second half wasn't exactly a Rembrandt either, most notably when he opted to brood under the basket after a no-call on a drive and James took advantage of the power play for a layup to put Miami up by three with 3:40 left.

But again, there's opportunity here as well. It's not like Westbrook can play any worse, and when engaged in a playoff environment he may play considerably better; certainly it appears he's done that in late-close situations, which is one reason Oklahoma City's defense has improved slightly in that environment according to NBA.com's advanced stats tool.










And another tidbit:



One of the Thunder's biggest vulnerabilities this season has been offensive rebounds -- they're 21st in defensive rebound rate. You saw why Wednesday night -- the guards are constantly getting beat off the dribble, forcing the bigs into help situations and leaving the boards exposed.

Except even with all that, Miami grabbed only eight offensive boards, because their bigs just aren't good enough to take advantage of this opening consistently. Miami itself is only 19th in offensive boards, and per minute two of its best offensive rebounders are James and Dwyane Wade. Miami centers Ronny Turiaf and Joel Anthony rarely crash the glass, annually sporting among the lowest rebound rates at their position, negating a potential Heat advantage.

Raph12
04-05-2012, 02:54 PM
Coaching, definitely coaching... They have the tools (players) to be a great defensive team, but the coach isn't a defensive-minded coach.

AIRMAR72
04-05-2012, 04:04 PM
they have NO presence in the post

DLeeicious
04-05-2012, 04:58 PM
"most notably when he opted to brood under the basket after a no-call on a drive and James took advantage of the power play for a layup to put Miami up by three with 3:40 left."

This play in particular had my jaw dropped. What a point in the game to decide to argue a call and not run back on defense. Maybe that's a part of the difference between the elite and OKC defensively -> you think Thibs leaves a guy on the floor who stays on the offensive end to argue (let alone at that stage of the game)? Nope, he's yanked, well in theory he's yanked it actually doesn't happen because they know they'll get yanked.

Bruno
04-05-2012, 11:20 PM
Well, OKCs defensive front line is good, very good- but not elite. Perkins can limit, but not shut down the leagues elite centers. Ibaka can slow them down, he'll lead the league in blocked shots, but he can't shut down the most elite PF's. They're a slightly undersized PF/C combination. Durant isn't a great help defender.

LBJ is that good of a help defender. Wade and Battier guarding on the wing doesn't hurt either.

Their defensive team synergy isn't elite either. they're still developing their defensive identity.

kozelkid
04-06-2012, 12:59 AM
First off let me state OKC is still a heavyweight but do we all agree on the following;

1) Ibaka is a better defender than Bosh
2) Perkins is a better defender than any center Miami has
3) Westbrook should be on par if not better than Chalmers defensively
4) Harden/Durant have improved as defenders.


So if all this is true, how on earth is Miami the better defensive team in terms of efficiency? Why isnt OKC an elite defensive team on par with the Celtics, Bulls, Heat? Dont they have the tools?

I've been saying this forever, Brooks is an awful coach. There's no excuse for them not being an elite defense. And that doesn't mention how strong their bench is at that end with Collison and Thabo (I know he starts...).

He also was clearly outcoached in the postseason last year and that team struggled big time in the halfcourt due to lack of plays and mostly going ISO. Brooks is holding them back and if they face a team that can slow it down, like Dallas or Memphis, I can see them struggling big time.

toovey107
04-06-2012, 01:03 AM
I've been saying this forever, Brooks is an awful coach. There's no excuse for them not being an elite defense. And that doesn't mention how strong their bench is at that end with Collison and Thabo (I know he starts...).

He also was clearly outcoached in the postseason last year and that team struggled big time in the halfcourt due to lack of plays and mostly going ISO. Brooks is holding them back and if they face a team that can slow it down, like Dallas or Memphis, I can see them struggling big time.
Yep. Put Thibs, Doc, Pop with the Thunder and its their championship to lose.

kozelkid
04-06-2012, 01:12 AM
Yep. Put Thibs, Doc, Pop with the Thunder and its their championship to lose.

Pretty much. Thank God they love their coach for some reason. The idea of them getting Stan or Sloan is absolutely frightening.

Baller1
04-06-2012, 01:40 AM
Yeah, Scott Brooks needs to go. In the worst way.

justinnum1
04-06-2012, 01:47 AM
Yeah, Scott Brooks needs to go. In the worst way.

how happy would you be if you got svg

TornadoOfSouls
04-06-2012, 12:38 PM
Why do people think Ibaka's a good defender? Outside of his weak side D, he's pretty awful. He's not a legit defensive anchor like Duncan in the past or Dwight/Chandler right now. He gets lots of blocks but that's about it.

Baller1
04-06-2012, 12:42 PM
Why do people think Ibaka's a good defender? Outside of his weak side D, he's pretty awful. He's not a legit defensive anchor like Duncan in the past or Dwight/Chandler right now. He gets lots of blocks but that's about it.

He's not "pretty awful". Last season maybe, but not anymore. Right now he's far from a defensive anchor, but he's also 22 and well on his way to becoming one.

Blitzbolt
04-06-2012, 05:45 PM
Calling Thabo an elite defender is a little out there he is more in that Matt barnes range.