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View Full Version : Brett Cecil sent down to AA New Hampshire...Carreno recalled.



Krylian
04-03-2012, 10:20 AM
Discuss...

Kenny Powders
04-03-2012, 10:22 AM
Wow. never seen this coming. Glad they did those, see what we got in Carreno.

Big Hurt
04-03-2012, 10:24 AM
It is called NO FREE PASSES.
This proved that you have to earn your job in spring training.
Nothing is handed to you and this is the RIGHT decision!

craigerlee
04-03-2012, 10:27 AM
Is Carreno starting or is he in the pen and Villaneuva moves into the rotation? I don't know why they didn't just give the spot to Jenkins or Mcguire as those guys are pretty darn close to ready and they may not have a chance to start this year if the SP's stay healthy as I imagine after June, Hutchison is the first one called up from New Hampshire.

Krylian
04-03-2012, 10:29 AM
I believe Carreno will start, but likely only until McGowan or Hutchison are ready.

Big Hurt
04-03-2012, 10:30 AM
Is there a link for this?
Nothing that I saw up on the BJs website.

Farsight
04-03-2012, 10:32 AM
Is Carreno starting or is he in the pen and Villaneuva moves into the rotation? I don't know why they didn't just give the spot to Jenkins or Mcguire as those guys are pretty darn close to ready and they may not have a chance to start this year if the SP's stay healthy as I imagine after June, Hutchison is the first one called up from New Hampshire. Completely agree, i dont really see Carreno or Villaneuva as a starting pitcher. Maybe Farrel has been listening to Zaun lately...

craigerlee
04-03-2012, 10:33 AM
Is there a link for this?
Nothing that I saw up on the BJs website.

No article but Fan590 is talking about it right now.

Farsight
04-03-2012, 10:36 AM
I like AA a lot, but he seems to try and find value in players which have no value, e.g. Eveland, Reyes, Vilaneuva (he had little value when he was acquired), and maybe Laffey to a certain extent. I like him a lot, but im getting tired of seeing this revolving door in our rotation, especially when we have young players who are ready

pebloemer
04-03-2012, 10:42 AM
http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/mlb/bluejays/article/1155741--blue-jays-starting-pitcher-brett-cecil-sent-to-minors


The Blue Jays have demoted starting pitcher Brett Cecil to Double-AA New Hampshire.

Once projected to be the teamís third starter, Cecil lost his spot in the rotation with a dreadful spring.

In his final two starts he gave up 15 hits, 11 runs and six walks in a combined 6 2/3 innings of work. He was hit hard by the Tigers on Monday, coughing up seven consecutive hits, including back-to-back homers to Prince Fielder and Delmon Young.

Joel Carreno, who made 11 relief appearances for the Jays last season, was brought up from the minors to join the rotation, and Kyle Drabek, who has pitched well throughout the spring, will stay up with the big-league club.

Lefty Aaron Laffey was also sent to minor-league camp.

With two days before the season opens in Cleveland on Thursday, the teamís starting rotation is now set as follows: Ricky Romero, Brandon Morrow, Joel Carreno, Henderson Alvarez and Kyle Drabek.

lexecutioner
04-03-2012, 10:45 AM
Justice has been served!

Anyways i feel bad for Brett Cecil I know he has been working really hard this past off season to get in better shape. Its not like he isn't trying to be better its just something happens and his velocity goes down. I still wish him the best of luck but unless he can do some miracle and stuff I dont want him near the team for now.

craigerlee
04-03-2012, 10:45 AM
I like AA a lot, but he seems to try and find value in players which have no value, e.g. Eveland, Reyes, Vilaneuva (he had little value when he was acquired), and maybe Laffey to a certain extent. I like him a lot, but im getting tired of seeing this revolving door in our rotation, especially when we have young players who are ready

We didn't have any young players ready till this year, Villaneuva was kinda necessary last year as Stewart was the only pitcher in the minors that was ready and even he wasn't all that impressive. Rzep was maybe the only other option, but he's probably more of a reliever too. I don't mind this so much the more I hear about it as they're apparently going with 4 starters with Carreno getting a couple spot starts until Mcgowan is ready.

Farsight
04-03-2012, 10:49 AM
We didn't have any young players ready till this year, Villaneuva was kinda necessary last year as Stewart was the only pitcher in the minors that was ready and even he wasn't all that impressive. Rzep was maybe the only other option, but he's probably more of a reliever too. I don't mind this so much the more I hear about it as they're apparently going with 4 starters with Carreno getting a couple spot starts until Mcgowan is ready. Yeah, i was going to fix my post about Vilanueva. Carenno is probably a little of a over reaction, but its just a trend im noticing with AA. He likes these buy low on pitchers and find some value (which for the most part is a good idea to structure your bullpen, however, im not sure if i like that for a rotiation spot) However, I would of preferred Rzep, Drabek (who deservedly got sent down), and Stewart last year over Reyes

craigerlee
04-03-2012, 10:55 AM
Yeah, i was going to fix my post about Vilanueva. Carenno is probably a little of a over reaction, but its just a trend im noticing with AA. He likes these buy low on pitchers. However, I would of preferred Rzep, Drabek (who deservedly got sent down), and Stewart last year over Reyes

Ya they definitely gave Reyes way too much rope last year, but I was fine with seeing what Reyes could do at the beginning. He had a pretty good spring with a strong outing against the Yanks A squad at the end of it. Stewart really wasn't ready at the beginning of the year. You definitely couldn't of called Drabek back up he was god awful in AAA and wasn't improving. They should of cut bait with Reyes earlier and moved Rzep into the rotation. A better example of him trying too hard to extract value was not waiving Rivera like 2 months earlier and letting Snider try and figure things out.

Sanyo
04-03-2012, 10:55 AM
I think Carreno deserves a shot -- he pitched very well out of the bullpen last year, its just weird he wasn't even considered for a spot after that. Let's see how it goes, being a #3 starter he will get a few starts to show what he has.

I think Jenkins could have also gotten the spot. Hutch and McGuire probably need another half season of refining and development before getting a shot at the Majors.

adid727
04-03-2012, 10:57 AM
Justice has been served!

Anyways i feel bad for Brett Cecil I know he has been working really hard this past off season to get in better shape. Its not like he isn't trying to be better its just something happens and his velocity goes down. I still wish him the best of luck but unless he can do some miracle and stuff I dont want him near the team for now.

I agree, i think we've seen the last of cecil. Joel Carreno on the other hand is a pitcher with great tools that can get him to survive in the majors. He won't be as painful to watch as cecil.

Farsight
04-03-2012, 10:58 AM
Ya they definitely gave Reyes way too much rope last year, but I was fine with seeing what Reyes could do at the beginning. He had a pretty good spring with a strong outing against the Yanks A squad at the end of it. Stewart really wasn't ready at the beginning of the year. You definitely couldn't of called Drabek back up he was god awful in AAA and wasn't improving. They should of cut bait with Reyes earlier and moved Rzep into the rotation. A better example of him trying too hard to extract value was not waiving Rivera like 2 months earlier and letting Snider try and figure things out. As i stated in my other post, i have no issue with buying low on bullpen arms, and think its a smart way to structure a bullpen for the most part. I do realize that hes trying to find value in players to acquire more assets, but it should not hinder the development of our young players, especially when the return would be not very significant at best

Krylian
04-03-2012, 11:03 AM
I think Carreno deserves a shot -- he pitched very well out of the bullpen last year, its just weird he wasn't even considered for a spot after that. Let's see how it goes, being a #3 starter he will get a few starts to show what he has.

I think Jenkins could have also gotten the spot. Hutch and McGuire probably need another half season of refining and development before getting a shot at the Majors.

Carreno is a fastball/slider pitcher. If he does throw a changeup, it's not very good. That's where the issue is with him starting. He just doesn't have the repertoire for it at this point. He'll start to get hit harder the 2nd and 3rd times through the order. I doubt we'll see Carreno get much past the 5th inning while he's here.

I do like him as a future arm in the pen...but my guess is that AA is trying to build up his hype and value a bit, like Molina last year, and try to package him as part of a deal later this summer.

Kenny Powders
04-03-2012, 11:06 AM
I agree, i think we've seen the last of cecil. Joel Carreno on the other hand is a pitcher with great tools that can get him to survive in the majors. He won't be as painful to watch as cecil.

Me too. In a few months McGuire, Hutchison, and maybe Jenkins will all probably pass him on the depth chart.

Kelly Gruber
04-03-2012, 11:08 AM
Interesting but warranted move. That kind of performance in ST and you shouldn't be making a big league club. AAA would have been a problem for Cecil as he would have been pounded into oblivion. Go to AA and start fresh and try to figure it out. If not, get rid of him.

Good to see the Jays are able to make the tough decisions correctly. Maybe we can grab a back-end starter off someone as the rosters begin to be set. Not sure how I feel about what we currently have...

Farsight
04-03-2012, 11:10 AM
What really killed Cecil was his loss of velocity. When you have a 2:1 K/BB ratio (signals lack of control and or stuff), with a mediocre GB%, you only knew the time would come when he was hit hard. The only role i see Cecil (on this jays team) is in bullpen

1hardcore
04-03-2012, 11:15 AM
Well i hope he figures it out in AA..

Carreno definitely deserves a shot in the rotation, but i think he's best suited in the BP

craigerlee
04-03-2012, 11:15 AM
As i stated in my other post, i have no issue with buying low on bullpen arms, and think its a smart way to structure a bullpen for the most part. I do realize that hes trying to find value in players to acquire more assets, but it should not hinder the development of our young players, especially when the return would be not very significant at best

But he hasn't done that with any of the pitchers. His only choices were Rzep and Stewart last year. Stewart wasn't really ready so he didn't really hinder his development. Seeing as Carreno is probably just spot starting they probably chose him because they wanted Jenkins and Mcguire to get regular starts rather than one start and rot in the pen for 2.5 weeks. Absolutely he's hurt Snider's development, but that's the only player I really think he's hurt.

adid727
04-03-2012, 11:17 AM
Interesting but warranted move. That kind of performance in ST and you shouldn't be making a big league club. AAA would have been a problem for Cecil as he would have been pounded into oblivion. Go to AA and start fresh and try to figure it out. If not, get rid of him.

Good to see the Jays are able to make the tough decisions correctly. Maybe we can grab a back-end starter off someone as the rosters begin to be set. Not sure how I feel about what we currently have...

exactly, especially with the depth we have in the minors.

Nuke
04-03-2012, 11:23 AM
Carreno is a fastball/slider pitcher. If he does throw a changeup, it's not very good. That's where the issue is with him starting. He just doesn't have the repertoire for it at this point. He'll start to get hit harder the 2nd and 3rd times through the order. I doubt we'll see Carreno get much past the 5th inning while he's here.

I do like him as a future arm in the pen...but my guess is that AA is trying to build up his hype and value a bit, like Molina last year, and try to package him as part of a deal later this summer.

True, but he'll go back down once McGowan is back anyway. I don't think he throws a Changeup. Sinker, Slider, Fastball... needs a 4th pitch to be a starter. A changeup would be nice to offset the hard stuff.

Farsight
04-03-2012, 11:23 AM
As i stated in my other post, i have no issue with buying low on bullpen arms, and think its a smart way to structure a bullpen for the most part. I do realize that hes trying to find value in players to acquire more assets, but it should not hinder the development of our young players, especially when the return would be not very significant at best

But he hasn't done that with any of the pitchers. His only choices were Rzep and Stewart last year. Stewart wasn't really ready so he didn't really hinder his development. Seeing as Carreno is probably just spot starting they probably chose him because they wanted Jenkins and Mcguire to get regular starts rather than one start and rot in the pen for 2.5 weeks. Absolutely he's hurt Snider's development, but that's the only player I really think he's hurt. I was not talking about pitching there specifically, it was a general comment about our team in certain circumstances in the past and the future. I'm fine with buy low candidates, as long as they don't hinder the development of younger more talented players, but that's way off topic now(which was completely my fault lol).

In general on the Cecil front, I'm happy he's not starting currently

nithanyo
04-03-2012, 11:24 AM
Yes atleast this guy can throw above 90 and he's only 24. I like the idea of giving him a shot

Farsight
04-03-2012, 11:32 AM
Update - apparently Carreno is going to pitch the 3rd game in Cleveland

craigerlee
04-03-2012, 11:33 AM
I was not talking about pitching there specifically, it was a general comment about our team in certain circumstances in the past and the future. I'm fine with buy low candidates, as long as they don't hinder the development of younger more talented players, but that's way off topic now(which was completely my fault lol).

In general on the Cecil front, I'm happy he's not starting currently

Ya we can definitely agree on that.

Farsight
04-03-2012, 11:37 AM
Ya we can definitely agree on that.Also now looking at it, i dont have an issue with Carreno starting as he is on the 40 man roster. If Laffey got the nod, i would have a HUGE issue

Krylian
04-03-2012, 11:38 AM
Cecil: "I really gave them no choice."

Sanyo
04-03-2012, 11:54 AM
Carreno is a fastball/slider pitcher. If he does throw a changeup, it's not very good. That's where the issue is with him starting. He just doesn't have the repertoire for it at this point. He'll start to get hit harder the 2nd and 3rd times through the order. I doubt we'll see Carreno get much past the 5th inning while he's here.

I do like him as a future arm in the pen...but my guess is that AA is trying to build up his hype and value a bit, like Molina last year, and try to package him as part of a deal later this summer.

Thats what I was thinking considering the value of dependable, controllable, starting pitching (and trade value continues to go up with contracts like Cain going up).

Maybe sucker Kenny Williams giving up Addision Reed for Carreno, heh heh..

Converged
04-03-2012, 11:58 AM
Sounds like Carreno will get the start this Sunday, then the Jays will go with a 4 man rotation of:

Romero
Morrow
Alvarez
Drabek

Until April 21st (because of off-days)...at that time, Carreno or someone else would be required to make a start or two until McGowan is back.

Either way, I'm pleased and surprised the Jays cut Cecil. I have a feeling that we are going to need every win we can get to have a shot at wild card so everything counts and Cecil has been getting shelled.

mkcavy
04-03-2012, 12:06 PM
I think this is a good move for Cecil too. Obviously something is wrong mechanically. If he can ever get his fastball back up to 90-92, and really get command of his change-up, he could still be a useful guy to the organization. But there's no point having him work on his mechanics in the majors, or in a hitter friendly park like LV either. Who knows, one day he could develop into a Scott Downs type reliever in the pen.

adid727
04-03-2012, 12:11 PM
ubaldo jimenez got suspended, maybe that has something to do with it.

bomber0104
04-03-2012, 12:59 PM
I'm glad the Jays manned up and let Cecil go... in now way has his spring warranted a starting spot. Now whether Carreno is the right choice who knows.. i'm just happy i won't have to watch 86 MPH fastballs being thrown to Sox and Yankees hitters

Converged
04-03-2012, 01:05 PM
I'm glad the Jays manned up and let Cecil go... in now way has his spring warranted a starting spot. Now whether Carreno is the right choice who knows.. i'm just happy i won't have to watch 86 MPH fastballs being thrown to Sox and Yankees hitters

This.

I don't think Carreno is the solution to our rotational woes, but it's safe to say he is an upgrade over Cecil.

Farsight
04-03-2012, 01:07 PM
I'm glad the Jays manned up and let Cecil go... in now way has his spring warranted a starting spot. Now whether Carreno is the right choice who knows.. i'm just happy i won't have to watch 86 MPH fastballs being thrown to Sox and Yankees hitters Watching Cecil in spring reminded me of Zito once he went to San Francisco... he was just unbearable to watch

Farsight
04-03-2012, 01:10 PM
This.

I don't think Carreno is the solution to our rotational woes, but it's safe to say he is an upgrade over Cecil. Well it makes a lot more sense once you realize that he is on the 40 man roster, and will be starting a few games at most, with stints as a relief pitcher inbetween long period of stretches

DeRozan10
04-03-2012, 01:15 PM
Absolutely love this.

Stoked to see what Carreno can do.

I was hopeing all winter he would be in the bullpen. Glad he's getting some innings here.

I think Cecil needs to go and re invent himself as a lefty reliever

the_jon
04-03-2012, 01:47 PM
:dance:

Bigred91
04-03-2012, 01:48 PM
Cecil and Brad Mills must train together. What a disappointment he has become. I am surprised by this move but I also like that the Jays aren't rewarding poor performances with big league spots. Rasmus has also had a poor spring. I wonder how long he will be given the opportunity.

2009mvp
04-03-2012, 01:52 PM
^^What an awful comparison. Cecil is down because he sucks, there are better alternatives, AND there's really not much of a ceiling there anymore. Rasmus at his worst is more valuable than anyone else on the roster in CF, and at his best is an All-Star.

Toxeryll
04-03-2012, 02:25 PM
oh yes!! finally they got it right. anyone is better than cecil at this point, hopefully carreno can develop a third pitch.

BlueJayFanDan
04-03-2012, 02:37 PM
I am a big fan and supporter of Cecil, but he has looked bad this spring and this was probably the best move for him. I hope he figures out his stuff and can get back up in a few months, though I wont hold my breath.

Bigred91
04-03-2012, 02:47 PM
^^What an awful comparison. Cecil is down because he sucks, there are better alternatives, AND there's really not much of a ceiling there anymore. Rasmus at his worst is more valuable than anyone else on the roster in CF, and at his best is an All-Star.

A couple of years ago we were saying the same thing about Cecil and his potential. Now he sucks. Rasmus may indeed have potential but his performance with the Jays so far sucks. Argue that.

wamco
04-03-2012, 02:48 PM
move cecil back to closer in NA, LV and have him as set up man next year.

Krylian
04-03-2012, 02:57 PM
A couple of years ago we were saying the same thing about Cecil and his potential. Now he sucks. Rasmus may indeed have potential but his performance with the Jays so far sucks. Argue that.

His defence has been good. :whistle:

Bombtista
04-03-2012, 03:06 PM
He is probably going to be lights out in AA too but I hope that doesn't make for a premature callup.

There are aspects of Cecil's game that are major league caliber and using him right out of the pen in the future might be the best option for him.

2009mvp
04-03-2012, 03:13 PM
A couple of years ago we were saying the same thing about Cecil and his potential. Now he sucks. Rasmus may indeed have potential but his performance with the Jays so far sucks. Argue that.

So now it's 2010 Cecil vs current Rasmus? That's relevant to your original point/my rebuttal how?


move cecil back to closer in NA, LV and have him as set up man next year.

It really is time to stop dicking around with him in any rotation. The upside just isn't there. Either trade him soon or put him in the pen where he might still have some value to the big league team.

Toxeryll
04-03-2012, 03:18 PM
cecil really has no future starting unless he gets his velocity back. moving him to the pen is probably the best idea right now

wamco
04-03-2012, 03:21 PM
So now it's 2010 Cecil vs current Rasmus? That's relevant to your original point/my rebuttal how?



It really is time to stop dicking around with him in any rotation. The upside just isn't there. Either trade him soon or put him in the pen where he might still have some value to the big league team.

-yup, what I said. move him to bullpen and keep him or trade him then. Trade value is nill now

mkcavy
04-03-2012, 03:26 PM
cecil really has no future starting unless he gets his velocity back. moving him to the pen is probably the best idea right now

Exactly. His LHB/RHB splits are sick. The guy is a prototypical lefty-specialist out of the pen. And who knows, maybe a couple years from now the velocity returns, and you try him as a starter again. But for now, he's a 7th/8th inning lefty-specialist in-training.

masTOR_shake1
04-03-2012, 03:30 PM
we should have signed mark buehrle

JaysFan87
04-03-2012, 03:34 PM
I believe Carreno will start, but likely only until McGowan or Hutchison are ready.

McGuire and Jenkins are the likely first call ups

adid727
04-03-2012, 03:41 PM
Watching Cecil in spring reminded me of Zito once he went to San Francisco... he was just unbearable to watch

lol and they still owe him 19 million in 2012 and 20 million in 2013 plus they have to pay him at least 7 million because 2014 is an option year and they will most definitely option out and pay him 7 million instead of 18 in 2014. So 46 million left :eyebrow:

JaysFan87
04-03-2012, 03:50 PM
A couple of years ago we were saying the same thing about Cecil and his potential. Now he sucks. Rasmus may indeed have potential but his performance with the Jays so far sucks. Argue that.

Rasmus was one of the top 5 players at his position just one year ago. Cecil has never come close to being the best player on his team. You are not being objective at all.

JaysFan87
04-03-2012, 03:53 PM
we should have signed mark buehrle
:puke:

wagnall
04-03-2012, 03:53 PM
Caught me off guard there. Thought AA might just bite his lip and give Cecil a shot, but this is much better.
But , just when will Mcgowan be ready. Sometimes you wonder if he can get through a season with out going on DL. Hope for the best.

Drabek rough today, but has put up some good numbers this spring and Farrell likes his new attitude!

wagnall
04-03-2012, 03:57 PM
Geez guys how did Rasmus even get on this thread! Now we are going to argue Cecil vrs Rasmus. Go ahead, but don't make much sence to me.

Krylian
04-03-2012, 04:01 PM
McGuire and Jenkins are the likely first call ups

Based on what? Because they're older? Cause they sure aren't better...

JaysFan87
04-03-2012, 04:43 PM
Based on what? Because they're older? Cause they sure aren't better...


Well yea pretty much. Add the fact Hutchison had an innings cap last year leads me to think that he will likely not be up this year especially if Jenkins continues play well. He is ahead of him in terms of development and in teh depth charts.

rapsjaysfan88
04-03-2012, 05:26 PM
id rather test carreno then let cecil get crushed. joel was great last year, he deserves a shot 2 prove himself.

The_Jet11
04-03-2012, 05:37 PM
i think Cecil could be a good LH out of the pen also. Let him work on his command in AA, give Carreno and Drabek a chance to strut their stuff in the majors, give McGowan some time to heal up right, and you've got some pretty good depth there. Add in Hutchison honing his craft in AA, and McGuire and Jenkins trying to push the envelope, and I'm satisfied.

With that said, if AA pulled a fast one and dealt for Wandy Rodriguez or Matt Garza I wouldn't be entirely surprised. It probably wouldn't happen until he's had a chance to assess the current SPs, but if we're playing well by mid June, and have one weak spot in the rotation, I'd expect to see him address it then.

tuck25
04-03-2012, 06:03 PM
oh yes!! finally they got it right. anyone is better than cecil at this point, hopefully carreno can develop a third pitch.

I read a report that he has developed a really good change-up, will look for the link but it says that this call up was also based on that. Saying that they have worked on that after he got sent down early in the spring, got stretched out and his change-up now was very good. Sounds like this was AA's backup plan all along if Cecil or Drabek failed...

edit: this is one post that talks about the change-up a bit.. http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2012/04/03/blue_jays_brett_cecil_demoted_double_a/

Still looking for the article ....

6th man
04-03-2012, 06:51 PM
It looks like were only going to have 3 left handed pitchers, 1 starter, 2 bullpen.


Romero
Perez
Oliver

Have we ever had only 1 lefty in the rotation?

2009mvp
04-03-2012, 07:04 PM
^^We've had 0 with Doc/AJ/McGowan/Marcum/Litsch/Towers, I'm gonna say in '07 since Lilly had left that year.

es0terik
04-04-2012, 02:35 AM
Don't know if this has been posted already but Carreno is supposed to pitch Game 3 in Cleveland while Drabek is supposed to pitch Game 5 vs Boston (at home). Then the Jays plan to use a four man rotation all the way till April 21, at which point I'm assuming they send down Carreno (unless Drabek is doing horrible) and bring up McGowan who they're assuming is healthy by then.

es0terik
04-04-2012, 02:44 AM
This is what the rough pitching schedule looks like

April 05, 2011 | Ricky Romero
April 07, 2011 | Brandon Morrow
April 08, 2011 | Joel Carreno
April 09, 2011 | Henderson Alvarez
April 10, 2011 | Kyle Drabek
April 11, 2011 | Ricky Romero
April 13, 2011 | Brandon Morrow
April 14, 2011 | Henderson Alvarez
April 15, 2011 | Kyle Drabek
April 17, 2011 | Ricky Romero
April 18, 2011 | Brandon Morrow
April 19, 2011 | Henderson Alvarez
April 20, 2011 | Kyle Drabek
April 21, 2011 | ?

AA09-?
04-04-2012, 09:47 AM
we should have signed mark buehrle

Of course. That would've answered all of our problems.LOL

Nick O
04-04-2012, 09:52 AM
hmm on the fence... I loved Carreno out of the bullpen but I did suggested we give him a start or 2 last year.. its all up to optimism now.. we have power and some hitting and enough offense to get it done.. but now our playoff hopes will rest on how quickly our young pitchers can mature. Drabek, Alvarez and Carreno have all shown flashes of brilliance as well has had moments that have frightend me.. should be interesting in the least. Question though what happened to Mcgowen? i thought he was pegged for the 5 spot a few weeks back?

Bigred91
04-04-2012, 10:25 AM
So now it's 2010 Cecil vs current Rasmus? That's relevant to your original point/my rebuttal how?



It really is time to stop dicking around with him in any rotation. The upside just isn't there. Either trade him soon or put him in the pen where he might still have some value to the big league team.

I am not trying to compare Cecil and Rasmus. You can't do it. I was surprised by the Jays changing tracks and demoting Cecil due to his poor performance when he had basically been written in as part of the rotation the entire spring.

I was also wondering (and here is where the idea that I was comparing the two directly came in) how long they would stick with a struggling hitter like Rasmus who has had a poor spring and had a poor year last year. Sure there is upside and potential but two years ago we were in fact talking about the upside of Brett Cecil.

Twitchy
04-04-2012, 10:52 AM
I am not trying to compare Cecil and Rasmus. You can't do it. I was surprised by the Jays changing tracks and demoting Cecil due to his poor performance when he had basically been written in as part of the rotation the entire spring.

I was also wondering (and here is where the idea that I was comparing the two directly came in) how long they would stick with a struggling hitter like Rasmus who has had a poor spring and had a poor year last year. Sure there is upside and potential but two years ago we were in fact talking about the upside of Brett Cecil.

Cecil hasn't been good for 2 years now before his velocity has dropped. Before he was averaging 88-89 MPH, and now he's topping out at 88 MPH. Meaning he's averaging 86 MPH.

Rasmus, on the other hand, had a great year with the Cardinals. He was 10% above league average - not 10% better than the average CF, but 10% better than the average hitter in the NL. Yes, he sucked as a Jay, but the fact of the matter is he was having a good year before he was traded. AND he was among the best player at his position the year before.

That's why the Jays aren't demoting him. He had 140 bad at bats, and before that he ranged between an above average center fielder and the best CF in the game. Cecil is useless if he's not averaging 88-89 MPH, which is why he was demoted.

Bigred91
04-04-2012, 11:14 AM
Cecil hasn't been good for 2 years now before his velocity has dropped. Before he was averaging 88-89 MPH, and now he's topping out at 88 MPH. Meaning he's averaging 86 MPH.

Rasmus, on the other hand, had a great year with the Cardinals. He was 10% above league average - not 10% better than the average CF, but 10% better than the average hitter in the NL. Yes, he sucked as a Jay, but the fact of the matter is he was having a good year before he was traded. AND he was among the best player at his position the year before.

That's why the Jays aren't demoting him. He had 140 bad at bats, and before that he ranged between an above average center fielder and the best CF in the game. Cecil is useless if he's not averaging 88-89 MPH, which is why he was demoted.

I am not trying to compare the two but apparently you are. So lets go. In 2010 when Cecil lead the team in wins were we saying he was terrible and had no potential for improvement? No.

In 2010 Rasmus had a very good year. Last year he was terrible with the Jays and was not much better with the Cardinals before he came over. I am not suggesting sending him down to the minors at this time. I simply wondered how long would the Jays wait on him. I believe that there are high expectations for this year in the front office and don't see them waiting for too long. I hope as much as every other Jays fan that he reverts back to his 2010 form.

Kenny Powders
04-04-2012, 11:26 AM
A couple of years ago we were saying the same thing about Cecil and his potential. Now he sucks. Rasmus may indeed have potential but his performance with the Jays so far sucks. Argue that.


I am not trying to compare the two but apparently you are. So lets go. In 2010 when Cecil lead the team in wins were we saying he was terrible and had no potential for improvement? No.

In 2010 Rasmus had a very good year. Last year he was terrible with the Jays and was not much better with the Cardinals before he came over. I am not suggesting sending him down to the minors at this time. I simply wondered how long would the Jays wait on him. I believe that there are high expectations for this year in the front office and don't see them waiting for too long. I hope as much as every other Jays fan that he reverts back to his 2010 form.


Seems like you are...

Bigred91
04-04-2012, 11:29 AM
Seems like you are...

Perhaps I see their situation as being similar. The players I don't.

es0terik
04-04-2012, 11:50 AM
The thing you don't apparently see is that Cecil's ceiling was always that of a serviceable third starter on a decent team, even after his good season. Rasmus' ceiling is an established, elite center fielder, possibly one of the best in the game.

Oh and there's a huge flaw in your comparison. We were on Cecil's boat only after he had a good year while the majority of us are on Rasmus' boat after he just had a horrible one. There's a reason for that.

Kenny Powders
04-04-2012, 11:59 AM
Perhaps I see their situation as being similar. The players I don't.

It's hard to do that without skewing them though. The guys are the same age and both one year removed from a good season. Rasmus has so much more upisde then Cecil that he has to be given a longer leash.

Bigred91
04-04-2012, 12:03 PM
The thing you don't apparently see is that Cecil's ceiling was always that of a serviceable third starter on a decent team, even after his good season. Rasmus' ceiling is an established, elite center fielder, possibly one of the best in the game.

Oh and there's a huge flaw in your comparison. We were on Cecil's boat only after he had a good year while the majority of us are on Rasmus' boat after he just had a horrible one. There's a reason for that.

We shall see. If I am wrong about Rasmus, I will happily admit it.

es0terik
04-04-2012, 12:06 PM
You already ARE wrong around Rasmus in that you don't think he can be as good as he can be, and also in the fact that you think Cecil somehow has the same value as he does.

Bigred91
04-04-2012, 12:09 PM
It's hard to do that without skewing them though. The guys are the same age and both one year removed from a good season. Rasmus has so much more upisde then Cecil that he has to be given a longer leash.

I agree that the projections for Rasmus are much better than they were for Cecil. No question. As someone else pointed out, there aren't really any other viable options for CF yet, with Gose being a little bit away at this point.

Kenny Powders
04-04-2012, 12:11 PM
You already ARE wrong around Rasmus in that you don't think he can be as good as he can be, and also in the fact that you think Cecil somehow has the same value as he does.

What does this mean?

Bigred91
04-04-2012, 12:11 PM
You already ARE wrong around Rasmus in that you don't think he can be as good as he can be, and also in the fact that you think Cecil somehow has the same value as he does.

I don't believe that I ever said that Cecil and Rasmus were equals in terms of value. I would say my views towards Rasmus are cautious. I will wait and see how he does before I write him off. As we know baseball is a game of what have you done for me lately and lately Rasmus hasn't done ****.

Kenny Powders
04-04-2012, 12:14 PM
I agree that the projections for Rasmus are much better than they were for Cecil. No question. As someone else pointed out, there aren't really any other viable options for CF yet, with Gose being a little bit away at this point.

Exactly, and I think the fact that Cecil stunk it up all year in Toronto last year, while Rasmus was only here for a short stint grants him some leniency. I really do like this team, but damn there are a lot of maybe's and if's.

Bigred91
04-04-2012, 12:17 PM
Exactly, and I think the fact that Cecil stunk it up all year in Toronto last year, while Rasmus was only here for a short stint grants him some leniency. I really do like this team, but damn there are a lot of maybe's and if's.

I am right there with you. It could be a really good season.

LuckyLuke2
04-04-2012, 12:31 PM
You already ARE wrong around Rasmus in that you don't think he can be as good as he can be, and also in the fact that you think Cecil somehow has the same value as he does.

How can someone be wrong about Rasmus when he hasn't proven yet that he can be, in your words "the greatest CF in the league" i mean come on... take it down a knotch.

He has loads of talent and potential but as fans he can say what he wants concerning Rasmus as he has yet to display his potential fully.

If he does, excellent. If he doesn't then he doesn't. You can't really say someone is wrong about Rasmus.

LuckyLuke2
04-04-2012, 12:33 PM
As for Cecil Farrell spoke about it and simply said he isn't where he wants him to be. His fastball still is in the high 80's and that isn't good enough.

I think it shows that the spots have to be earned and aren't handed to anyone. Cecil had a horrid outing last game, and guys like Morrow, Romero, Alvarez and for the most part Drabek have been consistent all spring. I like it.

I hope Carreno pitches well although it's a bit surprising that Luis Perez or Villanueva isn't the starter.

Twitchy
04-04-2012, 04:53 PM
I am not trying to compare the two but apparently you are. So lets go. In 2010 when Cecil lead the team in wins were we saying he was terrible and had no potential for improvement? No.

Leading the team in wins is meaningless. Should I be impressed that an offence that averaged 4.66 runs per game managed to score 5.46 for Cecil? That's why he had a high win total. It sure as hell wasn't because he was a good pitcher.


In 2010 Rasmus had a very good year. Last year he was terrible with the Jays and was not much better with the Cardinals before he came over.

He was 10% above league average during his time with the Cardinals. Meaning he outhit guys like Eric Thames, JP Arencibia, and pretty much everybody not named Bautista or Escobar. So yeah, he was a hell of a lot better during his time with the Cardinals.


I am not suggesting sending him down to the minors at this time. I simply wondered how long would the Jays wait on him. I believe that there are high expectations for this year in the front office and don't see them waiting for too long. I hope as much as every other Jays fan that he reverts back to his 2010 form.

I wouldn't bet on it unless he finds his missing velocity.

town123
04-04-2012, 05:11 PM
Cecil hasn't been good for 2 years now before his velocity has dropped. Before he was averaging 88-89 MPH, and now he's topping out at 88 MPH. Meaning he's averaging 86 MPH.

Rasmus, on the other hand, had a great year with the Cardinals. He was 10% above league average - not 10% better than the average CF, but 10% better than the average hitter in the NL. Yes, he sucked as a Jay, but the fact of the matter is he was having a good year before he was traded. AND he was among the best player at his position the year before.

That's why the Jays aren't demoting him. He had 140 bad at bats, and before that he ranged between an above average center fielder and the best CF in the game. Cecil is useless if he's not averaging 88-89 MPH, which is why he was demoted.

Rasmus was having a good year with the Cards before trading him to us? So much for the all-star at every position philosophy. Like everyone else I hope Colby gets his crap together, but hitting him 9th (being the right move) will probably insult him and his fathers sense of honour or something.

nithanyo
04-04-2012, 05:24 PM
The difference between Rasmus and Cecil is their depth at their respectable positions.

Right now we only have Gose who can play CF and ideally he is a full season away.

While with Cecil we have a **** ton of mediocre pitchers to fill in the back of the rotation. So even if Rasmus does suck balls we have no choice but to keep putting him out there. The other viable option is putting Davis out for a bit more games but Rasmus will still take on a majority of the playing time.

With all the pitching depth we have for the back of the rotation, its easy to see why 2 bad spring training starts is all that Cecil had.

As for Rasmus he will be given a full year unless he is hitting below .200 come july.

Bob_at_york
04-05-2012, 09:31 AM
never been a believer in cecil. I hope he can come back strong in the next couple of months but I see him as trade bait.

JermanJaysFan
04-05-2012, 12:08 PM
^^^The idea behind bait is that it is supposed to be appetizing :p

Bob_at_york
04-05-2012, 01:20 PM
^^^The idea behind bait is that it is supposed to be appetizing :p

that is why he has to come back strong.