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ChiSox219
04-01-2012, 09:50 PM
Steve Nash recently used this term to describe Rose and Westbrook. There is so much criticism towards these guys because of how often they shoot but it is possible that the "traditional PG" is giving way to the super athletic do everything PG?

ChiSox219
04-01-2012, 09:54 PM
ps

from here on out when anyone says rose or westbrook is not a "true PG" the default response should be: "they are superguards"

BullsFan_1
04-01-2012, 09:54 PM
Rubio might have something to say about that.

Seems to be trending in that direction though.

Bruno
04-01-2012, 10:03 PM
fundamentals are slowly being replaced by extreme athletics. it's going to create a cycle of 20 something year old guards dominating the league, and being replaced by the younger crop of PGs as they hit their 30's. it's gone become increasingly more difficult for older PGs to stick around in the NBA into their 30's, the league is changing.

PrettyBoyJ
04-01-2012, 10:12 PM
Athletic guards is the future of the league.. Just hope they have good work ethic to develop skill down the line.

Cfrey
04-01-2012, 10:17 PM
young basketball players in this day and age are expected to improve all areas of their game, rather than working on specific assets they already obtain.. thus this creates more multi-fascited players who are able to do more things with the ball in their hands

also a lot of it has to do with athleticism really... rubio and nash aren't as athletic as these guys and I think a lot of the time more athletic players are simply able to overpower traditional PGs just with their athleticism alone..

it is way more common to come across a freak athlete that is able to play basketball just with athleticism alone rather than to come across traditional PGs who have basically mastered the game.. in other words they have more of an art to their game

ChiSox219
04-01-2012, 10:19 PM
young basketball players in this day and age are expected to improve all areas of their game, rather than working on specific assets they already obtain.. thus this creates more multi-fascited players who are able to do more things with the ball in their hands

also a lot of it has to do with athleticism really... rubio and nash aren't as athletic as these guys and I think a lot of the time more athletic players are simply able to overpower traditional PGs just with their athleticism alone..

it is way more common to come across a freak athlete that is able to play basketball just with athleticism alone rather than to come across traditional PGs who have basically mastered the game.. in other words they have more of an art to their game

i get what you are saying but wouldn't you rather have prime (more athletic) CP3 over prime Nash?

Cfrey
04-01-2012, 10:23 PM
well CP3 is more of a traditional PG to me then a "super gaurd" and I basically attribute that to how Rose and Westbrook are able to sky and dunk the ball better than any other PGs in the game...

CP3 may be more athletic than Nash but CP3 plays more like Nash than he does Rose or Westbrook imo

and really now that I think about it, westbrook and rose are not like any other PGs in the league.. they definitely own that "super gaurds" title but really who else is there?

nirvana235
04-01-2012, 10:26 PM
Question; Would you rather start your franchise with a prime Derrick Rose or prime John Stockton?

Cfrey
04-01-2012, 10:28 PM
prime john stockton

ill take traditional PG ALL DAY

Kuya_Clive
04-01-2012, 10:29 PM
Question; Would you rather start your franchise with a prime Derrick Rose or prime John Stockton?

We should wait until after Rose hits his prime.

ChiSox219
04-01-2012, 10:29 PM
we should wait until after rose hits his prime.

+1

Cfrey
04-01-2012, 10:31 PM
we are talking about the all time leader in assists tho fellas...

thats what i want at the PG position

Baller1
04-01-2012, 10:34 PM
Comparing prime Rose to prime Stockton isn't exactly fair. You're taking a player yet to reach his prime and comparing him to arguably the greatest PG of all time.

nirvana235
04-01-2012, 10:36 PM
Comparing prime Rose to prime Stockton isn't exactly fair. You're taking a player yet to reach his prime and comparing him to arguably the greatest PG of all time.

Who's to say he hasn't yet already? Chris Paul had his best season when he was like around 23, and it's hard to see Rose having a better season then he did last year.

Baller1
04-01-2012, 10:39 PM
Who's to say he hasn't yet already? Chris Paul had his best season when he was like around 23, and it's hard to see Rose having a better season then he did last year.

Well that's kinda my point, no one knows if he has or hasn't hit his prime. I'll put my money on he hasn't, considering he's only 23. If he can stay healthy, of course he can step his game up another level.

Meanwhile, we're trying to compare him to an all-time great? That's simply illogical.

ChiSox219
04-01-2012, 10:41 PM
Who's to say he hasn't yet already? Chris Paul had his best season when he was like around 23, and it's hard to see Rose having a better season then he did last year.

CP3 had a career altering injury

Rose compared to Stockton is is fascinating because they are so different but I would not make a judgment at this point when Rose is so early in his career and still bests Stockton's efforts barring spot up shooting

nirvana235
04-01-2012, 10:43 PM
Well that's kinda my point, no one knows if he has or hasn't hit his prime. I'll put my money on he hasn't, considering he's only 23. If he can stay healthy, of course he can step his game up another level.

Meanwhile, we're trying to compare him to an all-time great? That's simply illogical.

Well Rose is maybe the best scoring pg ever even if he retired today, and Stockton is the best passing pg ever so it's not crazy to argue which one would have a bigger impact on a team.

tredigs
04-01-2012, 10:43 PM
CP3 had a career altering injury

Rose compared to Stockton is is fascinating because they are so different but I would not make a judgment at this point when Rose is so early in his career and still bests Stockton's efforts barring spot up shooting

Playmaking and defense? Also, durability. Stockton was the most durable PG ever. And it does bear mentioning since a component of the "supergaurd" idea is their insane/dominant athleticism - which does not last forever and may be less sustainable over time than the former.

Baller1
04-01-2012, 10:44 PM
Well Rose is maybe the best scoring pg ever even if he retired today, and Stockton is the best passing pg ever so it's not crazy to argue which one would have a bigger impact on a team.

To say Rose is the greatest scoring PG of all time after three and a half seasons is absolutely insane. Of course he's incredible scoring the ball, but I'm not so sure he's even the best scoring PG in the league right now.

ChiSox219
04-01-2012, 10:46 PM
Playmaking and defense?

I'll give you playmaking but defensively I don't think Stockton can match Rose.

Once Rose catches up to experiences of Stockton, playmaking will be much closer. Rose's ast% was higher thru the first 3 years and that's as a 1&done...

tredigs
04-01-2012, 10:46 PM
Well Rose is maybe the best scoring pg ever even if he retired today, and Stockton is the best passing pg ever so it's not crazy to argue which one would have a bigger impact on a team.

Bold claim. Not convinced he's the best scoring PG in the NBA.

ChiSox219
04-01-2012, 10:47 PM
btw Stockton is mad underrated

nirvana235
04-01-2012, 10:49 PM
To say Rose is the greatest scoring PG of all time after three and a half seasons is absolutely insane. Of course he's incredible scoring the ball, but I'm not so sure he's even the best scoring PG in the league right now.

Ok let's not talk about Rose or Stockton. My question is that would people prefer an elite pass-first pg over an elite attacking pg with huge athleticism?

tredigs
04-01-2012, 10:51 PM
I'll give you playmaking but defensively I don't think Stockton can match Rose.

Once Rose catches up to experiences of Stockton, playmaking will be much closer. Rose's ast% was higher thru the first 3 years and that's as a 1&done...

Rose ast% higher??? You mean than Stockton before he was actually a starter? Once Stockton started (year 4) he started his run of leading the league in assists/assist% every year. And at a clip far higher than Rose has or likely will ever have.

And actually looking at it right now Stockton had a higher assist% than Rose's best by year 2. They aren't in the same tier/conversation as far as passing goes.



Ok let's not talk about Rose or Stockton. My question is that would people prefer an elite pass-first pg over an elite attacking pg with huge athleticism?

Too basic of a question in my opinion. All depends on the other intangibles that player possesses and who his teammates are.

NoahH
04-01-2012, 10:53 PM
If a 'true PG' is someone like Nash or Stockton then they aren't true PGs

ChiSox219
04-01-2012, 10:55 PM
Rose ast% higher??? You mean than Stockton before he was actually a starter? Once Stockton started (year 4) he started his run of leading the league in assists/assist% every year. And at a clip far higher than Rose has or likely will ever have.

And actually looking at it right now Stockton had a higher assist% than Rose's best by year 2. They aren't in the same tier/conversation as far as passing goes.




Too basic of a question in my opinion. All depends on the other intangibles that player possesses and who his teammates are.

I just looked at their first 3 years, if Stockton can make the jump I think Rose can, problem is where do you find another Malone/Sloan system?

Rose is making these passes while also assuming the #1 scoring load, that's basically the idea of "super guards"

nirvana235
04-01-2012, 10:58 PM
BTW, I think Chris Paul during that one year where he finished 2nd in mvp, was probably the greatest season any pg has ever had...

Hustla23
04-01-2012, 11:01 PM
Well, guys like Rose and Westbrook are rare physical specimens in themselves. There aren't too many guards like them that are that explosive and have worthy skillsets.

Therefore, point guards in the traditional mold are much more common and so I doubt they'd be overtaken.

ChiSox219
04-01-2012, 11:04 PM
so is westbrook definitely in this category?

who else?

It'sMyTime
04-01-2012, 11:08 PM
so is westbrook definitely in this category?

who else?

John Wall is also..I want to say Kyrie Irving but he is not the physical specimen the others are

Edit: Tyreke Evans can be a super guard if he improves his all around game as well

Baller1
04-01-2012, 11:09 PM
so is westbrook definitely in this category?

who else?

John Wall immediately comes to mind.

MrfadeawayJB
04-01-2012, 11:19 PM
super guards: they done changed the game

Raph12
04-01-2012, 11:24 PM
Give me a healthy CP3 over both of those "superguards" any day of the week...

Cfrey
04-02-2012, 04:22 AM
gimme a healthy ricky rubio over any PG in NBA history any day of the week

Furymaker
04-02-2012, 04:43 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOiy6uA9xNY

Insane , this Derrick over any other PG in league .

abe_froman
04-02-2012, 05:14 AM
Steve Nash recently used this term to describe Rose and Westbrook. There is so much criticism towards these guys because of how often they shoot but it is possible that the "traditional PG" is giving way to the super athletic do everything PG?

it has been for awhile now,its just people are now paying close attention to it as its more noticeable since so many top pg's and all that are entering the draft/coming up now can be classified as such .this of course has caused the ire of many fans on the net....though is a trend thats only going to continue(which will have to cause those fans to do some soul searching on if they want to continue following basketball or not).

the traditional[insert any position,not just pg]concept is all but dead(something i'm glad for as i hated that notion in the first place)

b@llhog24
04-02-2012, 12:01 PM
gimme a healthy ricky rubio over any PG in NBA history any day of the week

Really now? :eyebrow:

iam brett favre
04-02-2012, 01:08 PM
The fact that a reigning MVP that averages 23 points and 8 assists is questioned so much is absurd.

valade16
04-02-2012, 01:43 PM
The fact that a reigning MVP that averages 23 points and 8 assists is questioned so much is absurd.

Exactly. I mean, he's 7th in the league in assists. And for all the talk about Chris Paul he's only averaging a whopping .8 more assists than Derrick Rose.

I'm not saying one is definitively better than the other, just questioning the amount of animosity directed towards Rose.

Birdmannn
04-02-2012, 01:47 PM
Exactly. I mean, he's 7th in the league in assists. And for all the talk about Chris Paul he's only averaging a whopping .8 more assists than Derrick Rose.

I'm not saying one is definitively better than the other, just questioning the amount of animosity directed towards Rose.

The best players have the most haters.

kozelkid
04-02-2012, 02:23 PM
Ok let's not talk about Rose or Stockton. My question is that would people prefer an elite pass-first pg over an elite attacking pg with huge athleticism?

Scorer without a doubt. Let's look at it this way, there's no need to muddy up the definition of what you want out of an elite perimeter player. It's what Rose is, Westbrook is, Durant is, Lebron is, Kobe is, Wade is etc.

The way I see it, these are all perimeter players. When you look at most of the teams that win it all, it comes down to having your perimeter star take over and lead your team. There's a reason why guys like Wade, Kobe, MJ, Bird, Isiah, Magic (all great passers, but are always going to be score first when it counts), have won titles, while pass first like Kidd, Nash, etc. haven't (ya I know Kidd won last season, but he didn't exactly lead that team). Point blank, I want my best perimeter player to be score first (while being able to create for others as a good level if necessary). Whether it is a point guard, a shooting guard or a small forward, it doesn't matter to me.

As for Rose, I have no idea how people think last season will likely be his best season yet. It was only his third year and in his limited time THIS season, he has definitely played even better and has learned to control the game better.

5ass
04-02-2012, 02:38 PM
The best PGs are always the ones that look to set up their teammates. Instead of having a 6'3 guy working his *** of to do all the scoring at a pretty low %, usually under 45%, u can have a player that looks to set up his players and get higher % shots.

tredigs
04-02-2012, 02:47 PM
^What about Westbrook this year 5ass? 48% from the field scoring 25 a game (and an 80+% foul shooter who gets to the line a ton), but playing less of a playmaker role and allowing KD and Harden to either create on their own or set up others - resulting in just 5.5 assists. When a team has multiple players capable of creating their own shot (I am NOT looking at you, Steve Nash), is it still advantageous to play the pass first role??

kozelkid
04-02-2012, 03:03 PM
The best PGs are always the ones that look to set up their teammates. Instead of having a 6'3 guy working his *** of to do all the scoring at a pretty low %, usually under 45%, u can have a player that looks to set up his players and get higher % shots.

Where has that gotten Kidd or Nash?

Meanwhile, I'm sure Billups, Isiah and Magic are enjoying the rings that they earned while still being the best players on their team.

I've said this for so long now. The whole cliche that pg's need to be pass first and simply initiate the play has been outdated since Magic entered the scene. Many point guards nowadays have overcome their size limitations and have proven they could do far more than just being pass first players.

In the end, it's a philosophy that will get you no where and will waste your pg's extreme talents if you have a guy like Rose or Westbrook on your team, and even Paul who needs to be more assertive in closing moments of a game. And by the way, this passive garbage is the same reason Rose went through a slump in the beginning of his second season and same with Wall.

Bottom line, if you want to win in this game, there are moments when your best player needs to take over. If that player happens to be your point guard, then that's who scores.

Birdmannn
04-02-2012, 03:07 PM
Where has that gotten Kidd or Nash?

Meanwhile, I'm sure Billups, Isiah and Magic are enjoying the rings that they earned while still being the best players on their team.

I've said this for so long now. The whole cliche that pg's need to be pass first and simply initiate the play has been outdated since Magic entered the scene. Many point guards nowadays have overcome their size limitations and have proven they could do far more than just being pass first players.

In the end, it's a philosophy that will get you no where and will waste your pg's extreme talents if you have a guy like Rose or Westbrook on your team, and even Paul who needs to be more assertive in closing moments of a game. And by the way, this passive garbage is the same reason Rose went through a slump in the beginning of his second season and same with Wall.

Bottom line, if you want to win in this game, there are moments when your best player needs to take over. If that player happens to be your point guard, then that's who scores.

I can see your an Irving fan so isnt it nice to see him already understanding all of this.

DLeeicious
04-02-2012, 03:07 PM
The best PGs are always the ones that look to set up their teammates. Instead of having a 6'3 guy working his *** of to do all the scoring at a pretty low %, usually under 45%, u can have a player that looks to set up his players and get higher % shots.

Field goal % is pretty irrelevant for a PG who attempts any 3's whatsoever a much better stat is eFG% or TS%. Some guards who shoot below 45% are very efficient others are not.

It's tough to compare a "Super guard" to a Stockton/Nash type guy but I sure as hell love watching the "Super guards" play.

kozelkid
04-02-2012, 03:14 PM
And by the way, for anyone who challenges the idea that Rose or Westbrook should be allowed to be score first for their teams, let me ask you this question: what's the difference between the role that a Derrick Rose, or a Russell Westbrook to the role of a Dwyane Wade, Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan, Brandon Roy, etc. I really want to know the answer to this.

Why is it okay for those shooting guards to be score first and lead their team to titles (except for Roy, unfortunately), but not for Rose or Westbrook? Rose and Westbrook are certainly capable of being right there with those listed players as far as scoring efficiency goes (ts% and efg%). The only difference is that Rose and Westbrook bring the ball up all the time, while those 2's had mediocre pg mates who'd do it for most of the game. However, when the game is close and down to the wire, we'd ALWAYS see those shooting guards bring the ball up. So again, I ask y'all, what's the difference?

nitric
04-02-2012, 03:33 PM
Only Westbrook and Rose fit this

5ass
04-02-2012, 03:48 PM
And by the way, for anyone who challenges the idea that Rose or Westbrook should be allowed to be score first for their teams, let me ask you this question: what's the difference between the role that a Derrick Rose, or a Russell Westbrook to the role of a Dwyane Wade, Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan, Brandon Roy, etc. I really want to know the answer to this.

Why is it okay for those shooting guards to be score first and lead their team to titles (except for Roy, unfortunately), but not for Rose or Westbrook? Rose and Westbrook are certainly capable of being right there with those listed players as far as scoring efficiency goes (ts% and efg%). The only difference is that Rose and Westbrook bring the ball up all the time, while those 2's had mediocre pg mates who'd do it for most of the game. However, when the game is close and down to the wire, we'd ALWAYS see those shooting guards bring the ball up. So again, I ask y'all, what's the difference?

they never shot less than 40% in the play offs. rose shot 39%-29 3pt% in the play offs last season. You cant as a bulls fan tell me u were satisfied with his overall performance in the play offs especially after being awarded MVP. Its just much easier for a team to focus on and limit a 6'3 player who doesnt even have a great midrange game/3pt shot yet to some one who is 6'6, is better at drawing fouls, and has a better midrange game/3pt shot or both.

tredigs
04-02-2012, 03:49 PM
Just listened to this BS report and Nash mentioned the other one I was thinking of after seeing it first hand for a few years; Baron Davis - up until he left the Warriors - was this mold of guard. Just an ultra athletic/strong scoring point who was really nothing like the standard mold of PG at the time.

If either of Rose or Westbrook (the current prototype of this player - Wall's close) ever reach the level of bbiq and playmaking ability of a Nash or Cp3 (eg. when not to chuck 3's in the case of Rose, or when not to be overly aggressive and barrel into the docile PF's/C's of today's game in the case of Westbrook), then it's over. That's the ultimate point. Only other thing you could selfishly ask for is Magic's height.

5ass
04-02-2012, 03:51 PM
Field goal % is pretty irrelevant for a PG who attempts any 3's whatsoever a much better stat is eFG% or TS%. Some guards who shoot below 45% are very efficient others are not.

It's tough to compare a "Super guard" to a Stockton/Nash type guy but I sure as hell love watching the "Super guards" play.

which is just hurting ur team.
Cp3 shoots 1 less 3 pt shot per game and is a MUCH better 3 pt shooter than rose.

5ass
04-02-2012, 03:56 PM
^What about Westbrook this year 5ass? 48% from the field scoring 25 a game (and an 80+% foul shooter who gets to the line a ton), but playing less of a playmaker role and allowing KD and Harden to either create on their own or set up others - resulting in just 5.5 assists. When a team has multiple players capable of creating their own shot (I am NOT looking at you, Steve Nash), is it still advantageous to play the pass first role??

Its like u said, Westbrook hasnt been hurting his team this year (so far), hes looking for his own shot and thats fine because he has durant and Harden this year as capable play makers. He's scoring the ball VERY efficiently too so no harm done. So now when u have a SG and SF that can create for others and themselves pass 1st PG's are still better but not as much because their play making abilities are limited when they dont have the ball in their hands as much as they would want.

Meaze_Gibson
04-02-2012, 04:21 PM
And by the way, for anyone who challenges the idea that Rose or Westbrook should be allowed to be score first for their teams, let me ask you this question: what's the difference between the role that a Derrick Rose, or a Russell Westbrook to the role of a Dwyane Wade, Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan, Brandon Roy, etc. I really want to know the answer to this.

Why is it okay for those shooting guards to be score first and lead their team to titles (except for Roy, unfortunately), but not for Rose or Westbrook? Rose and Westbrook are certainly capable of being right there with those listed players as far as scoring efficiency goes (ts% and efg%). The only difference is that Rose and Westbrook bring the ball up all the time, while those 2's had mediocre pg mates who'd do it for most of the game. However, when the game is close and down to the wire, we'd ALWAYS see those shooting guards bring the ball up. So again, I ask y'all, what's the difference?

There is not a difference. I always thought since Nash or Stockton shot so well maybe they should have shot a lil more to get the win.

NBA basketball is not as perfect as assumed. Dirk did not have the best shooting % in Finals but he won. NBA ball is about defense but also having someone with the ability and confidence to score when it truly matters. Westbrook almost single handedly kept the Thunder in the series in 2010. As a whole, Rose is a dynamic playoff performer.

clydebino
04-02-2012, 04:26 PM
I just want a point guard who can win and take over when he needs to. Doesn't matter if he is a super guard or a traditional guard.

tredigs
04-02-2012, 04:51 PM
Its like u said, Westbrook hasnt been hurting his team this year (so far), hes looking for his own shot and thats fine because he has durant and Harden this year as capable play makers. He's scoring the ball VERY efficiently too so no harm done. So now when u have a SG and SF that can create for others and themselves pass 1st PG's are still better but not as much because their play making abilities are limited when they dont have the ball in their hands as much as they would want.

I disagree though, especially in the case of Rose. That team lacks a #1 option to go to at the end of the game once the defense tightens up and they simply need a playmaker to make a play. This is why we see Cp3 so often turn into an offensive/me-first juggernaut towards the 4th quarter of games. In the first three quarters he will always look to pass first/keep his teammates involved and try to win that way. But if that's not enough come the 4th quarter, then he realizes the onus is on him to be that guy who can break down the lockdown D. Rose has to do the same himself; only in his case I don't think he's quite patient enough (or frankly good enough of a playmaker yet) to get his teammates all going throughout the first 3 quarters.

Westbrook has the luxury of having the leagues best scorer along with a near elite playmaker/scorer in Harden, so he doesn't have the same pressure as Cp3/Rose to constantly keep his teammates going throughout the game (which Cp3 does incredibly well, and Rose not quite as much) because they will handle that themselves. Durant's USG% is roughly the same as Westbrook's, so we know he's working that angle well.

jp611
04-02-2012, 04:53 PM
How does Rose not do a good job of getting his teammates involved? It is pure comedy how people still try to bash him when he has clearly improved in that area

Ebbs
04-02-2012, 05:06 PM
Comparing prime Rose to prime Stockton isn't exactly fair. You're taking a player yet to reach his prime and comparing him to arguably the greatest PG of all time.

Nah he can't be better than Magic/Oscar

5ass
04-02-2012, 05:07 PM
I disagree though, especially in the case of Rose. That team lacks a #1 option to go to at the end of the game once the defense tightens up and they simply need a playmaker to make a play. This is why we see Cp3 so often turn into an offensive/me-first juggernaut towards the 4th quarter of games. In the first three quarters he will always look to pass first/keep his teammates involved and try to win that way. But if that's not enough come the 4th quarter, then he realizes the onus is on him to be that guy who can break down the lockdown D. Rose has to do the same himself; only in his case I don't think he's quite patient enough (or frankly good enough of a playmaker yet) to get his teammates all going throughout the first 3 quarters.

Westbrook has the luxury of having the leagues best scorer along with a near elite playmaker/scorer in Harden, so he doesn't have the same pressure as Cp3/Rose to constantly keep his teammates going throughout the game (which Cp3 does incredibly well, and Rose not quite as much) because they will handle that themselves. Durant's USG% is roughly the same as Westbrook's, so we know he's working that angle well.

Yes but Cp3 looking for his shot in the 4th also has to do with having BG and DJ to close out games when their horrible ft shooters and basically useless on offense. If cp3 didnt take over the game who will? Caron butler? Rose atleast has Deng, Gibson (solid midragne game), and usually a 3pt shooter to help him close out games. Not to mention when the bulls close out games it very much depends on the teams defense+rebounding. Go look at how many games rose has been bailed out at the 4th by offensive rebounds, and defensive stops.

Swashcuff
04-02-2012, 05:09 PM
The Bulls are among the league leaders in assists and have been all season long. Rose when he was on the floor actually added to this much much more so I really don't understand the knocks on him for not passing as much as a traditional PG.

tredigs
04-02-2012, 05:13 PM
How does Rose not do a good job of getting his teammates involved? It is pure comedy how people still try to bash him when he has clearly improved in that area

He's improved - and does a better than average job - but my point is that he's not on the level of a Nash or Chris Paul. And don't give me the Assists per game stat. Chris Paul still averages higher APG despite a far lower USG% due to sharing the ball handling and/or point duties with Mo Williams and Chauncey for much of the season. When Cp3 was in New Orleans and the sole point (but still had a lower USG% than D. Rose) we saw just the ultra high assists%'s out of him.

It's an area where he absolutely has room for improvement. For you to take that as bashing is just highlighting another case of protective-homeritis that goes around these parts.

ManRam
04-02-2012, 05:13 PM
I'm all about score-first PGs...especially on the right team.

The Thunder have 3 scorers on their team, and everyone else is below average. He's shown he can be an 8 assist guy if needed. The thing is, IT'S NOT NEEDED. What's best for that team is him being a scoring threat, and he and the team know it.

Same for Rose. On that team, they need his scoring a lot of the team. They need it more so than they need him to set up chances for others. That team works together as one so incredibly well that they don't need their players to necessarily fill the "traditional" roles. They have great passers and unselfish players everywhere...so rather than relying on a single person to create for everyone...they do it as a whole, and it also just so happens to be that their best scorer is a PG. It doesn't matter. It clearly works (top 3 offense).

They do what's best for their teams, and just because it isn't "traditional"...well, who gives a ****?

Extreme pass-first PGs have long been overrated.

How does Chris Paul, for example, dominate late in games? By scoring. A lot of the times your ability to create your own shot is more important, even as a PG.

ManRam
04-02-2012, 05:15 PM
And for the record, my criticisms of Rose have never been because he doesn't pass enough. I'll paypal someone $100 bucks if they find me really laying into him for that. My criticisms come from other sources...

haggis
04-02-2012, 05:21 PM
And for the record, my criticisms of Rose have never been because he doesn't pass enough. I'll paypal someone $100 bucks if they find me really laying into him for that. My criticisms come from other sources...

Your disdain for Skittles?

http://a323.yahoofs.com/ymg/ept_sports_nba_experts__60/ept_sports_nba_experts-156699096-1282254166.jpg?ymXlzoDDvHkVRqoh

iam brett favre
04-02-2012, 05:28 PM
And for the record, my criticisms of Rose have never been because he doesn't pass enough. I'll paypal someone $100 bucks if they find me really laying into him for that. My criticisms come from other sources...

Really? I was gonna start my research paper but I think I'm gonna start searching through old threads instead.

Raph12
04-02-2012, 05:30 PM
Just listened to this BS report and Nash mentioned the other one I was thinking of after seeing it first hand for a few years; Baron Davis - up until he left the Warriors - was this mold of guard. Just an ultra athletic/strong scoring point who was really nothing like the standard mold of PG at the time.

If either of Rose or Westbrook (the current prototype of this player - Wall's close) ever reach the level of bbiq and playmaking ability of a Nash or Cp3 (eg. when not to chuck 3's in the case of Rose, or when not to be overly aggressive and barrel into the docile PF's/C's of today's game in the case of Westbrook), then it's over. That's the ultimate point. Only other thing you could selfishly ask for is Magic's height.

You just described Lebron James...

BOOM!!! Mind = Blown

Kuya_Clive
04-02-2012, 05:41 PM
^ I always disliked it when Rose starts to chuck threes

tredigs
04-02-2012, 05:44 PM
You just described Lebron James...

BOOM!!! Mind = Blown

Hah. Interesting, wow - I really did. Now to nit-pick to another level, we need that player to have the mentality of a Larry Bird; There's your next GOAT.

And to be fair to LBJ, I actually think he seems to have a very good mentality and a great work ethic (completely underrated - you simply don't get that good at that many facets of the game - including shooting and defense - without absolutely tiresome work ethic, I don't care how athletic you are). He just does not have that GOAT level of mental toughness. Maybe it will come.

5ass
04-02-2012, 05:47 PM
^ I always disliked it when Rose starts to chuck threes

Good, so many chi fans think rose is perfect. They think hes an elite passer, shooter and defender. In fact hes not, but hes still an elite player.

Shammyguy3
04-02-2012, 06:01 PM
Rose is a very good passer, a good shooter who's streaky from three, and an elite defender at his position.

nirvana235
04-02-2012, 06:02 PM
Gimme Lebron James... he's the pest pg, sg, sf, pf, c in the game.

Shammyguy3
04-02-2012, 06:07 PM
Lebron does have the ability to guard the most people with the highest effectiveness in the league. He's amazing at that.

5ass
04-02-2012, 06:10 PM
Rose is a very good passer, a good shooter who's streaky from three, and an elite defender at his position.

See, i can agree with that. Except i wouldnt call him an elite defender, but whatever u get the point.

Shammyguy3
04-02-2012, 06:13 PM
Rose is an elite defender, for his position. That's key. He's great at guarding point guards, and he has the strength & size to guard most shooting guards as well. He's not as effective at guarding both as say a guy like Thabo Sefolosha, Ronnie Brewer, Tony Allen, etc. But, for his position, he ranks near the top.

ManRam
04-02-2012, 06:16 PM
Really? I was gonna start my research paper but I think I'm gonna start searching through old threads instead.

Well, you can't hold me to anything...but if you feel so inclined, knock yourself out.

I hate the notion that unless your a "traditional" (whatever the **** that means) pass-first PG, you aren't good. I also feel, even though this league is becoming as guard-oriented as ever, that the PG position can be the most overvalued position in the game.

5ass
04-02-2012, 06:17 PM
Rose is an elite defender, for his position. That's key. He's great at guarding point guards, and he has the strength & size to guard most shooting guards as well. He's not as effective at guarding both as say a guy like Thabo Sefolosha, Ronnie Brewer, Tony Allen, etc. But, for his position, he ranks near the top.

Id rank him 5-10 on defense among pgs, but not higher

Kuya_Clive
04-02-2012, 06:18 PM
Good, so many chi fans think rose is perfect. They think hes an elite passer, shooter and defender. In fact hes not, but hes still an elite player.

lol I know what you mean, a ton of my buddies are big homers.

Shammyguy3
04-02-2012, 06:22 PM
Id rank him 5-10 on defense among pgs, but not higher

Name 5 point guards that are better then, i'd like to see who you list.

smiddy012
04-02-2012, 06:23 PM
Rose is a very good passer, a good shooter who's streaky from three, and an elite defender at his position.

Agreed. If I had a nickel for every time I've heard in the main that Rose is a poor defender, or that he can't shoot or pass well, I'd be a rich man. Oh, and we all know he's elite at the rim, this is the one thing that's never been doubted, even by the haters. And if he ever gets the super-star treatment from the refs it'll be long overdue.

Truth is he's the best PG in the league for the Bulls. Generally speaking CP3 vs. Rose is very debatable as best PG in the league overall. But if we're talking who the better overall player is it's Rose. Feel free to look up the last two times the two squared off if you don't believe me - Rose made it crystal clear.

smiddy012
04-02-2012, 06:23 PM
Name 5 point guards that are better then, i'd like to see who you list.

x2

5ass
04-02-2012, 06:30 PM
Name 5 point guards that are better then, i'd like to see who you list.

Jrue, bradley, cp3, westbrook, conley, rondo, even wall. Can all be argued as better defenders. Theres probably more i just forgot

ManRam
04-02-2012, 06:32 PM
I don't fault fans for over-hyping their players, and it's a shame it often has the opposite effect most of those fans want (causes some people to underrate). I'm guilty of having my opinions on players/things altered because of a massive over-hyping of a certain player, especially when I feel it's just wrong. The more I'm told how great someone is without those people actually articulating why, the less inclined I am to actually believe them :shrug: If I enter 5 different threads and see people bragging over player X in all 5 threads for no reason...or without really providing reasoning, it is in my nature to disagree even more. If that makes sense...

It's hard to say if Rose is over or underrated... because he's without a doubt both. But the idea of a "super guard", if we're gonna call them that, tends to get an unfair picture painted of them. People need to get over the idea that PGs are only good if they are "pass-first" or "traditional" PGs. That's an archaic, and a wrong, way to sum it up. It all depends on the team. Some teams need that guy, most don't. Give me 5 unselfish players and 5 guys who can pass, score and hit open shots over one superstar pass-first PG and 4 people who need him to create for them. 5 play-makers > 1.

Rose gets unfair criticism because of the misconception of what it means to be a great PG. But he also gets a lot of "hate" because of an obsessive fan base...and like I said, I'm never going to blame a fan base for falling in love with their best player. He's a likable guy, but no one likes anything shoved down their throats (Kobe, Blake, Rose, LeBron, etc. have all suffered from it). It does just genuinely annoy a lot of people and often skews public perception in the opposite way than that of which those fans want.

Furymaker
04-02-2012, 06:34 PM
Dude , only Bradley is better defender than Rose of that list .
You took players with high SPG numbers and claim they are better defenders , get real , watch some game , only PGs that are better defenders than Rose are Lowry and Bradley ( maybe Shumpert if you even can call him a PG )

btw. Rose 7.8 apg are this low only because their team is #1 in apg , Bulls are team who share the rock all the time , etc. Rose pass it to Deng who is open , but Deng continue sharing the rock to Boozer who is wide open with better look , you can't say Rose is bad at setting his teammates up , when season started he was pass-first PG , but his teammates weren't hitting wide open shots , Bulls were bad , Rose then realized he has to be aggressive score-first for Bulls to work , he started doing that and Bulls all of the sudden were the best team in NBA .

kozelkid
04-02-2012, 06:38 PM
they never shot less than 40% in the play offs. rose shot 39%-29 3pt% in the play offs last season.

First of all, they have. Second, fg% means very little to me and doesn't tell the full story of scoring efficiency.


You cant as a bulls fan tell me u were satisfied with his overall performance in the play offs especially after being awarded MVP. Its just much easier for a team to focus on and limit a 6'3 player who doesnt even have a great midrange game/3pt shot yet to some one who is 6'6, is better at drawing fouls, and has a better midrange game/3pt shot or both.

So is Wade, magically "okay" as far as being score first because he's 6'4 instead of 6'3? I don't believe it.

You're mistaking size limitations for players succeeding in the NBA with players who have proven to already succeed in the NBA. Rose has already proven he can succeed. Does he need to continue to improve? Obviously. But him being 6'3 doesn't mean he's better off pass first. He's worse off being pass first, and as a Bulls fan, I've seen that first hand as well.

5ass
04-02-2012, 06:38 PM
Dude , only Bradley is better defender than Rose of that list .
You took players with high SPG numbers and claim they are better defenders , get real , watch some game , only PGs that are better defenders than Rose are Lowry and Bradley ( maybe Shumpert if you even can call him a PG )

Yes i forgot lowry. Its not just about steals i didnt even look up the stats. Ur telling me bradley is the only one on my list who is better, and ur telling me to get real? Ur saying rose is clearly better than rest? Ya ok i guess i should get real

Shammyguy3
04-02-2012, 06:40 PM
Jrue, bradley, cp3, westbrook, conley, rondo, even wall. Can all be argued as better defenders. Theres probably more i just forgot

Chris Paul is not hands down a better defender. Rose is faster & more athletic and is far superior in the post. He fights through screens better as well.

Rajon Rondo is nowhere near elite. The guy gambles sooooooo much and routinely gets outplayed. He's a lazy defender that has a messed up attitude, and he hasn't posted better ISO #s per Synergy than either Rose/Paul/Westbrook. Rondo's a good defender that gambles, nowhere near elite.

Wall still needs to learn to stay in front of his man. He gets lit up routinely because he plays too aggressively allowing his defender to blow past him. He loves to play the passing lanes as well.

Conley is a good defender but how is he elite?

Westbrook is right with Rose. They're about as even as you get imo.

Bradley is definitely elite. No argument there. Holiday is a good debate, but i haven't seen his ISO numbers and haven't seen him enough to judge. So i concede that one.

So we have Bradley/Westbrook/Rose/Holiday as a rough top-4, without mentioning Kyle Lowry. If being a top-5 consensus defender at your position doesn't make you elite, then we have a different argument on our hands.


PS: if someone has ISO #s to post, i'd love to see them for these players.

kozelkid
04-02-2012, 06:42 PM
Good, so many chi fans think rose is perfect. They think hes an elite passer, shooter and defender. In fact hes not, but hes still an elite player.

Most Chicago fans hate how often he takes the pull up the 3. Of course he isn't perfect. However, him having an imperfect 3 doesn't mean he shouldn't be score first.

You know who else shouldn't shoot 3's? Kobe Bryant and Dwyane Wade. They still do (although until recently, Wade did a good job of limiting 3pta to help his game). They SHOULD specifically limit their 3pta, not move away from being what they are which is score first players.

haggis
04-02-2012, 06:44 PM
PS: if someone has ISO #s to post, i'd love to see them for these players.

I posted these in another thread:

2010-2011


Player Overall Isolation P&R Ball Handler Spot Up
Derrick Rose 0.77 0.67 0.73 0.92
Deron Williams 0.91 0.87 0.89 1.13
Rajon Rondo 0.80 0.68 0.81 0.86
Chris Paul 0.88 0.76 0.77 0.98
Jason Kidd 0.85 0.76 0.78 0.96

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showpost.php?p=21321903&postcount=112

2011-2012


Player Overall Isolation P&R Ball Handler Spot Up
Derrick Rose 0.75 0.75 0.67 0.97
Deron Williams 0.97 0.82 0.89 1.14
Rajon Rondo 0.74 0.67 0.75 0.83
Chris Paul 0.74 0.69 0.76 0.81
Jason Kidd 0.82 1.07 0.77 0.85

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showpost.php?p=21322109&postcount=121



Give me a minute while I do Rose/Lowry/Bradley/Holiday/Westbrook

Furymaker
04-02-2012, 06:47 PM
Kozel and Shammy kinda explained what I had to say but was lazy to explain all of this :)
I watched Holiday , he's good defender , but not in same group as Bradley/Rose/Lowry and Westbrook .

5ass
04-02-2012, 06:53 PM
I think cp3, jrue, westy, lowry, brsdley Are clearly brtter. This is just my opinion and how I would rank them. I said he was 5-10 and gave u my reasoning. U disagree fine.

haggis
04-02-2012, 06:54 PM
Player Overall Isolation P&R Ball Handle Spot Up
Derrick Rose 0.75 0.75 0.67 0.97
Kyle Lowry 0.86 0.67 0.80 1.08
Avery Bradley 0.72 0.68 1.33 0.68
Jrue Holiday 0.76 0.76 0.70 0.71
Russell Westbrook 0.87 0.71 0.86 1.06


Sorry for the looks of these, I can't figure out how line everything up.

5ass
04-02-2012, 07:04 PM
Player Overall Isolation P&R Ball Handle Spot Up
Derrick Rose 0.75 0.75 0.67 0.97
Kyle Lowry 0.86 0.67 0.80 1.08
Avery Bradley 0.72 0.68 1.33 0.68
Jrue Holiday 0.76 0.76 0.70 0.71
Russell Westbrook 0.87 0.71 0.86 1.06


Sorry for the looks of these, I can't figure out how line everything up.
Do these numbers account for a pgs productionsgainst the bulls or just when rose is guarding the pg?

Bishnoff
04-02-2012, 07:06 PM
Offensively, give me a pass first PG over a score first PG any day. Basketball is a team game and the PG needs to have a pass bias for the good of the team. These "super guards" are generally freakishly athletic and tend to rely on this athleticism to score as opposed to setting up teammates.

Defensively, a “super guard” is generally going to be better since they are longer, faster laterally, average more steals, rebounds, blocks etc.

5ass
04-02-2012, 07:16 PM
Jrue, bradley, cp3, westbrook, conley, rondo, even wall. Can all be argued as better defenders. Theres probably more i just forgot

Ill add rubio and lowry to the list as well.

Furymaker
04-02-2012, 07:19 PM
Do these numbers account for a pgs productionsgainst the bulls or just when rose is guarding the pg?

Just when Rose is guarding other PG's .
We ( bulls fans ) are obviously boring with all this Rose talk , but guy made a huge improvement as defender last and this season and if you're not watching Bulls closely you can't tell it , from time to time he tends to sleep a bit on D and gets burned by 3pt shooter , but his 1v1 defense is among elite ( obviously not at Bradley , T.Allen , Iggy ,etc. level ) .

b@llhog24
04-02-2012, 07:22 PM
Lowry, Bradley, CP3 and Westbroke are better defenders than rose. Although If were talking start pgs rose is at about 3-4.

5ass
04-02-2012, 08:03 PM
Just when Rose is guarding other PG's .
We ( bulls fans ) are obviously boring with all this Rose talk , but guy made a huge improvement as defender last and this season and if you're not watching Bulls closely you can't tell it , from time to time he tends to sleep a bit on D and gets burned by 3pt shooter , but his 1v1 defense is among elite ( obviously not at Bradley , T.Allen , Iggy ,etc. level ) .

oh ive definately seen Drose's improvement on D since his rookie year. My point is i cant consider him an elite defender. When i say elite i mean hes the best of the best, and to me hes not. I never said he was a bad defender. I ranked him 5-10 among PGs, and i said he was a good defender. For me he's not elite, but i guess we have diff definitions on what elite is.

Furymaker
04-02-2012, 08:29 PM
He's top 5 at PG position , stats prove it . So , he's elite .

Hustlenomics
04-02-2012, 08:37 PM
Rajon Rondo is nowhere near elite. The guy gambles sooooooo much and routinely gets outplayed. He's a lazy defender that has a messed up attitude, and he hasn't posted better ISO #s per Synergy than either Rose/Paul/Westbrook. Rondo's a good defender that gambles, nowhere near elite.



a lazy defender that shut down chris paul, deron williams, john wall, lin, conley, jennings, kyle lowry,jrue holiday and he hasn't gambled much this season please know what you're talking about

5ass
04-02-2012, 09:25 PM
He's top 5 at PG position , stats prove it . So , he's elite .

The stats say Drose is a much better defender than lowry. Didnt you agree that Lowry is a better defender? Theres stats are skewed, are you sure its not PG production vs Bulls? It seems team defense effects these stats or i got it all wrong and Lowry is a lowsy defender, even though ive seen him shut down PGs.

Shammyguy3
04-02-2012, 10:25 PM
ISO stats take into account only those isolated scenarios where no help defense is involved

5ass
04-02-2012, 11:13 PM
Well in iso he is 5th among just those 10 names that he listed. So it just backs up what i thought originally. Am I missing something? :confused:
Also dont forget here were just talking about isos only, and not even touched defensive rebounding and playing the passing lanes (both of which Rose doesnt excel at).

mRc08
04-03-2012, 01:34 AM
I think people are over valuing athleticism as the reason these players are flourishing. I mean there are A LOT of pg's in the NBA more athletic than tony parker, steve nash, etc that arn't good. Historically too, when chauncy was running the point in his prime, there were guards more athletic than him, and thats recent history.

These guys that are super athletic are more than that (rose, westbrook, rondo), they are unreal. Look at john wall, devin harris, jennings, etc. They are all super athletic yet are not on these guys level. I understand that they are young and have different team situations, but to this point d-rose has **** on john walls progress. I'm tired of people discrediting these point guards production with the athleticism excuse.

Finally, the nba is moving in this direction because it works! Possbily the two best teams in the NBA (thunder and bulls) have the best record in the NBA and contenders with these pgs! Ask dirk if being untraditional has led to him never winning a championship.

sargon21
04-03-2012, 02:47 AM
The stats say Drose is a much better defender than lowry. Didnt you agree that Lowry is a better defender? Theres stats are skewed, are you sure its not PG production vs Bulls? It seems team defense effects these stats or i got it all wrong and Lowry is a lowsy defender, even though ive seen him shut down PGs.

Lowry's an elite defender.. those stats say so, but they also say D Rose is, and I don't need stats to tell me that. Whenever he gets isolated on defense, I know there's a very low likelihood that player's scoring because Rose will just man him up and about 1/2 the time even block the player's shot no problem.

Raph12
04-03-2012, 03:02 AM
ISO stats take into account only those isolated scenarios where no help defense is involved

That's not true, the "isolation" stat from synergy does not take account for help defense. Look through the videos, many of the shots taken in iso situations have been altered/blocked by the help and turnovers have been forced by the help as well... There aren't any finite defensive stats, all of them have their flaws so just take everything with a grain of salt.

Shammyguy3
04-03-2012, 03:08 AM
Well in iso he is 5th among just those 10 names that he listed. So it just backs up what i thought originally. Am I missing something? :confused:
Also dont forget here were just talking about isos only, and not even touched defensive rebounding and playing the passing lanes (both of which Rose doesnt excel at).

If we factor in rebounding, Rose is still in the conversation. He's one of the best rebounding point guards there are in the league. He's without debate (to me) the best weakside defending point guard in the league, and top-3 when guarding the pick & roll. He still needs to learn to play the passing lanes more often, but he also never gambles and puts the help defense in a poor position.

But back to the ISO stats... look in the overall section. Rose overall allows 0.75 PPP... Holiday 0.74 and Bradley 0.72 ; looking at that, Holiday allows only 1 more point per 100 plays and Bradley allows 3 more.

Do you think there's THAT much of a difference where you can say one is definitively better than the other? The ISO stats are good... but they don't mean everything. 1 point per play is the smallest disparity there is, it's basically meaningless. Rose is definitely elite for his position, because if he isn't then nobody is.

5ass
04-03-2012, 01:18 PM
If we factor in rebounding, Rose is still in the conversation. He's one of the best rebounding point guards there are in the league. He's without debate (to me) the best weakside defending point guard in the league, and top-3 when guarding the pick & roll. He still needs to learn to play the passing lanes more often, but he also never gambles and puts the help defense in a poor position.

But back to the ISO stats... look in the overall section. Rose overall allows 0.75 PPP... Holiday 0.74 and Bradley 0.72 ; looking at that, Holiday allows only 1 more point per 100 plays and Bradley allows 3 more.

Do you think there's THAT much of a difference where you can say one is definitively better than the other? The ISO stats are good... but they don't mean everything. 1 point per play is the smallest disparity there is, it's basically meaningless. Rose is definitely elite for his position, because if he isn't then nobody is.

-i cant say Rose is one of the best rebounding PGs in the league, Rondo and Lowry are good rebounding PGs the rest are pretty much average.

-yes but what im saying is the overall section is affected greatly by team defense. Also the overall section does not take into account charges/drawing offensive fouls (which cp3 for example is good at), steals or defensive rebounding.

I still wouldnt call Rose an elite defender. Hes still top 5-10 on my list, but if u call Rose an elite defender you dont really know what elite defense is.

ManRam
04-03-2012, 01:30 PM
That's not true, the "isolation" stat from synergy does not take account for help defense. Look through the videos, many of the shots taken in iso situations have been altered/blocked by the help and turnovers have been forced by the help as well... There aren't any finite defensive stats, all of them have their flaws so just take everything with a grain of salt.

This is true. Isolation stats are not completely team independent..actually, from what I've gathered, it's not even close. If you think an "isolation" play is never impacted by anyone but the individual defender, well, you're wrong. Often, it does (especially if it ends in a jump shot) but even if it does end in a jump shot, maybe that jump shot is the result of the help defense blocking the lane, or a million other possibilities.

Using any one stat to prove anything like this as a definite isn't fair to the stat itself...and like most defensive stats, team play and team help makes a huge difference. I love stats as much as most anyone here, but you always have to take them with a grain of salt...and most of the synergy stats, including this, are no exception.

I'll spare my rankings for now...I need to dig into it a bit more...but I rarely have ever seen "elite" defense from Rose. He's certainly above average, and has made strides, but fundamentally I haven't seen "elite". Maybe I don't throw that word around as easily as most. Top 5 doesn't equal elite necessarily either (I know he's not in my top 4...and I suspect I'd have a few others like Westbrook, Lowry and Holiday over him as well).

ChiSox219
04-03-2012, 02:17 PM
Rose or Rondo defensively and then there's everyone else

Sly Guy
04-03-2012, 02:46 PM
prime john stockton

ill take traditional PG ALL DAY

me too.

EYDI819
04-03-2012, 02:58 PM
A Super Guard is having the athleticism of Rose/Westbrook plus the mindset of Stockton

THE MTL
04-03-2012, 03:00 PM
Super guard or scoring PG cause thats basically what they are. PGs who can dish it, but are better at scoring first.

joe1nas
04-03-2012, 04:55 PM
so is westbrook definitely in this category?

who else?

Steve Francis was in that category when he was in his prime

joe1nas
04-03-2012, 05:08 PM
Gimme Lebron James... he's the pest pg, sg, sf, pf, c in the game.

no hes not

joe1nas
04-03-2012, 05:16 PM
Deron williams is better than Chris Paul

Furymaker
04-03-2012, 06:45 PM
add Eric Gordon to this list of super-guards , completely forgot about him .