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View Full Version : Do The Thunder Have Top 3 players at the 1,2 and 3?



jayjay33
03-29-2012, 05:02 PM
Not an OC fan but A previous thread got me to thinking. Do The Thunder Have a Top 3 player at the pg,sg and sf? An if so are they the only team that can claim top 3 players at 3 different positions?

justinnum1
03-29-2012, 05:02 PM
yes

based on PER they have 3 players in the top 27

heat have players at 1 and 2 but bosh is #56

So i dont want to hear how Lebron has more help than Durant.

Hustlenomics
03-29-2012, 05:05 PM
they do at small forward

BULLSFAN0810
03-29-2012, 05:08 PM
No ...are you trying too troll or are you a newb?

tredigs
03-29-2012, 05:10 PM
yes

based on PER they have 3 players in the top 27

heat have players at 1 and 2 but bosh is #56

So i dont want to hear how Lebron has more help than Durant.

Annnnnd the thread has already been brought around to Lebron.

But I agree, and have made that argument. Difference is that Wade is a proven Finals MVP/#1 option who took the reigns once the finals came around. I don't see that being the case with Durant, although it's possible. Time will tell.

I would say that depending on your team needs or how you judge the player, any of the top 6 or so PG's could be argued over one another. But, Westbrook is definitely in that discussion, and probably is in fact top 3 this year. It's close though.

Harden is having one of the most scoring efficient seasons in NBA history from the 2 guard slot (the most, I think. Not at the 20+ PPG level yet though, obviously). And he's a blossoming bonafide AllStar; he does have a case for top 3. 126 O-Rating. .665 TS%. Ho-Lee-****. And, KD is obviously top 2.

Ibaka is closing the gap as a top 7-8 PF as well. Their young guns are monsters.

Hawkeye15
03-29-2012, 05:14 PM
LeBron>Durant
Wade>Harden

so no, the Heat are the only team that can claim having even 2 at the top of their positions.

jayjay33
03-29-2012, 05:14 PM
No ...are you trying too troll or are you a newb?

I am not sure how or who this is trolling maybe you can explain. So i can edit my thread so as not to offend. I just think the thunder may have a top 3 pg in westbrook a top 3 sg in harden and a top 3 small forward in durant. i am not sure which one of those are unreasonable. I don't think you mean durant. so I assume you mean either harden or westbrook or both?

justinnum1
03-29-2012, 05:16 PM
I am not sure how or who this is trolling maybe you can explain. So i can edit my thread so as not to offend. I just think the thunder may have a top 3 pg in westbrook a top 3 sg in harden and a top 3 small forward in durant. i am not sure which one of those are unreasonable. I don't think you mean durant. so I assume you mean either harden or westbrook or both?

Nothing trolling about your original post

And if we are looking at PER

westbrook is #3 for PG's
Harden is #4 for SG(1pt shy of bryant) But ginobli has played so little i think its fair to consider harden top 3 here
and Durant is #2 behind lebron(by quite a bit)

jayjay33
03-29-2012, 05:18 PM
LeBron>Durant
Wade>Harden

so no, the Heat are the only team that can claim having even 2 at the top of their positions.

Maybe why title is misleading i didn't mean the 1,2 and 3 overall. I meant top 3 at their positions. ie top 3 pg, top 3 sg ,top 3 sf........

Hawkeye15
03-29-2012, 05:22 PM
Maybe why title is misleading i didn't mean the 1,2 and 3 overall. I meant top 3 at their positions. ie top 3 pg, top 3 sg ,top 3 sf........

ahhh, ok. Harden is a tough sell with Wade, Kobe, and a few other guys there. But I don't see why a case can't be made that they do indeed have 3 players that are top 3 at their position. I will say YES to your question, but only because Manu has missed so much time. Though I have it on record many times, Harden IS the next Manu.

jayjay33
03-29-2012, 05:35 PM
100% agree

jayjay33
03-29-2012, 05:36 PM
ahhh, ok. Harden is a tough sell with Wade, Kobe, and a few other guys there. But I don't see why a case can't be made that they do indeed have 3 players that are top 3 at their position. I will say YES to your question, but only because Manu has missed so much time. Though I have it on record many times, Harden IS the next Manu.

100% agree, that was my thinking with no broy and Manu not really Manu anymore. I have to go with harden. Joe Johnson is a good shooter but so is harden, but harden is also beast attacking the basket. Joe not so much. An Monta to me is nowhere near as fundamentally sound as harden and he is 2 much of a volume player.They are both still really good though.

valade16
03-29-2012, 05:38 PM
I think Oklahoma City and Portland are perfect examples of drafting and building a team the right way, and just how much luck can play a factor.

The Thunder have had nearly (perhaps every) every player they've drafted with the intent of developing into a star player actually develop into a great player.

Has that ever happened in the NBA before?

TubbyBucket
03-29-2012, 05:39 PM
The Lakers, arguably.

justinnum1
03-29-2012, 05:43 PM
The Lakers, arguably.

Lakers what?

Gasol isnt even top 10 for PF per

not saying he isnt a top 10 PF but this season he's more like bottom 10

jayjay33
03-29-2012, 05:52 PM
Lakers what?

Gasol isnt even top 10 for PF per

not saying he isnt a top 10 PF but this season he's more like bottom 10

idk...this is a tough one for me. After love and dirk it gets kind of murky. i am not sure gasol or bosh arent as good as anybody else.

justinnum1
03-29-2012, 05:53 PM
idk...this is a tough one for me. After love and dirk it gets kind of murky. i am not sure gasol or bosh arent as good as anybody else.

Thats fine, im just saying what the numbers show

TubbyBucket
03-29-2012, 05:54 PM
Lakers what?

Gasol isnt even top 10 for PF per

not saying he isnt a top 10 PF but this season he's more like bottom 10

Lamarcus Aldridge and Kevin Love are the only two 4's that are outright better than him. Must be a strange world you live in where Pau's a bottom feeder.

laker2dodger
03-29-2012, 05:57 PM
Did Kobe retire?
Did Lebron retire?
Did Dwight retire?
Did Chris Paul retire?
Did Kevin Love retire?
Did Derrick Rose retire?
They have an amazing player in KD but not the top 3.
IMO

jayjay33
03-29-2012, 05:57 PM
Thats fine, im just saying what the numbers show

Point taken.....

jayjay33
03-29-2012, 05:59 PM
Did Kobe retire?
Did Lebron retire?
Did Dwight retire?
Did Chris Paul retire?
Did Kevin Love retire?
Did Derrick Rose retire?
They have an amazing player in KD but not the top 3.
IMO

Didn't mean the 1,2 and 3 overall. I meant top 3 at their positions. ie top 3 pg, top 3 sg ,top 3 sf........

meloman1592
03-29-2012, 06:04 PM
An argument could be made for those 3...another team that comes to mind is the Lakers, but Gasol probably isn't top 3 pf's anymore. Same with Miami. Back on topic though, Harden as the 3rd best sg in the L just doesn't sound right yet

justinnum1
03-29-2012, 06:08 PM
Lamarcus Aldridge and Kevin Love are the only two 4's that are outright better than him. Must be a strange world you live in where Pau's a bottom feeder.

Next time try reading my post. How is a top 10 PF a bottom feeder?

TubbyBucket
03-29-2012, 06:08 PM
Oh, I think I misinterpreted what Justinnum was saying. Thought he literally meant "bottom 10," as in one of the worst 4's in the league.

Edit: you posted just as I replied. You did say bottom 10, which literally means...well, bottom 10.

jayjay33
03-29-2012, 06:10 PM
An argument could be made for those 3...another team that comes to mind is the Lakers, but Gasol probably isn't top 3 pf's anymore. Same with Miami. Back on topic though, Harden as the 3rd best sg in the L just doesn't sound right yet

I know but when i really though about it. I had to go wid harden...broy is gone, manu is not manu anymore, joe johnson can shoot with harden but doesnt come close at attacking the basket, an monta can attack the basket but he is a streak shooter at best and a volume scorer. I also like hardens defense. Overall I just think he is that good.

justinnum1
03-29-2012, 06:14 PM
Oh, I think I misinterpreted what Justinnum was saying. Thought he literally meant "bottom 10," as in one of the worst 4's in the league.

Edit: you posted just as I replied. You did say bottom 10, which literally means...well, bottom 10.

My bad, i meant to say lower end of the top 10...


def not bottom 10...

willabeast77
03-29-2012, 06:29 PM
Harden probably has been a top 3 SG this season. Other top SG's have had disappointing seasons or have been too injured (Ginobili, Martin, Johnson, Ellis, Allen, Gordon)

smiddy012
03-29-2012, 06:57 PM
CP3, Rose, and DW are all better than Westbrook.

b@llhog24
03-29-2012, 07:29 PM
My bad, i meant to say lower end of the top 10...


def not bottom 10...

Love, LMA, Griffin and Dirk are the only Pf's clearly better than him. Everyone else would be arguable.

CudiOnMyiPod
03-29-2012, 07:33 PM
I would take Chris Paul, Deron Williams and Derrick Rose over Russ.
Durant is easily the #2 SF.

I would honestly put Harden as #3. Besides Kobe and Wade who is better? Ginobili easily would but he's older and has been hurt a lot. No to Joe Johnson, Kevin Martin or Monta Ellis. I think the only player who has a chance is Eric Gordon but outside of scoring (which he could turn into a monster at) Harden has him in rebounding, defense, passing and efficiency.

b@llhog24
03-29-2012, 07:38 PM
CP3, Rose, and DW are all better than Westbrook.

D-will is one of my favourite pgs but he isn't better than Westy or Rose

CudiOnMyiPod
03-29-2012, 07:39 PM
Did Kobe retire?
Did Lebron retire?
Did Dwight retire?
Did Chris Paul retire?
Did Kevin Love retire?
Did Derrick Rose retire?
They have an amazing player in KD but not the top 3.
IMO

I think it's funny that you put Kobe as the first one in this list haha

Baller1
03-29-2012, 07:39 PM
For now, I think Westy and Harden are both #4 at their respective positions.

NoahH
03-29-2012, 07:45 PM
imo Thunder have more talent/potential than Miami. I think Harden will be a superstar very, very soon.

smiddy012
03-29-2012, 07:47 PM
D-will is one of my favourite pgs but he isn't better than Westy or Rose

Re-read what I said, I clearly state that Rose/CP3/DWill are better than WB. Perhaps WB and DW is debatable but I don't believe so.

jayjay33
03-29-2012, 08:00 PM
I would take Chris Paul, Deron Williams and Derrick Rose over Russ.
Durant is easily the #2 SF.

I would honestly put Harden as #3. Besides Kobe and Wade who is better? Ginobili easily would but he's older and has been hurt a lot. No to Joe Johnson, Kevin Martin or Monta Ellis. I think the only player who has a chance is Eric Gordon but outside of scoring (which he could turn into a monster at) Harden has him in rebounding, defense, passing and efficiency.

Now see too me westy is the most debatable one. i have durant and harden both as yes....westy is in a dead heat for top 3 pg with d-will. I honestly think it's 6 in one hand a half dozen in the other with these two. It can go either way.

jayjay33
03-29-2012, 08:02 PM
For now, I think Westy and Harden are both #4 at their respective positions.

I'm assuming you have d-will as the third best pg infront of westbrook. But who is your number 3 sg in front of harden?

jayjay33
03-29-2012, 08:15 PM
I think Oklahoma City and Portland are perfect examples of drafting and building a team the right way, and just how much luck can play a factor.

The Thunder have had nearly (perhaps every) every player they've drafted with the intent of developing into a star player actually develop into a great player.

Has that ever happened in the NBA before?

Good point only problem is you cant keep them together much longer. Atleast i don't think you can. Not enough cash for all four....i'm not even confident there's enough for 3 if ibaka isnt one of them.

b@llhog24
03-29-2012, 08:16 PM
Re-read what I said, I clearly state that Rose/CP3/DWill are better than WB. Perhaps WB and DW is debatable but I don't believe so.

Westbrooke has played better than D-will both this season and last season. And why do you want me to reread what you've said?

Baller1
03-29-2012, 08:20 PM
I'm assuming you have d-will as the third best pg infront of westbrook. But who is your number 3 sg in front of harden?

I've got:

1. Wade
2. Kobe
3. Manu

1. CP3
2. Rose
3. Williams

Then Westy and Harden.

smiddy012
03-29-2012, 08:22 PM
CP3, Rose, and DW are all better than Westbrook.


D-will is one of my favourite pgs but he isn't better than Westy or Rose


Re-read what I said, I clearly state that Rose/CP3/DWill are better than WB. Perhaps WB and DW is debatable but I don't believe so.


Westbrooke has played better than D-will both this season and last season. And why do you want me to reread what you've said?

Because you misunderstood it. Also, if you like Westbrook so much, the least you could do is spell his name right.

jayjay33
03-29-2012, 08:27 PM
I've got:

1. Wade
2. Kobe
3. Manu

1. CP3
2. Rose
3. Williams

Then Westy and Harden.

I think westy and d-will is a tie for 3. An WHEN manu plays he is rarley ever that MANU anymore. Injuries + age are just too much with him. I got harden locked at 3sg.

5ass
03-29-2012, 08:27 PM
For this season, I have CP3 1st and Dwill-Rose-westbrook are interchangeable. Westbrook has been great this season. He's like 4th in scoring.

Silent
03-29-2012, 08:30 PM
yes

based on PER they have 3 players in the top 27

heat have players at 1 and 2 but bosh is #56

So i dont want to hear how Lebron has more help than Durant.



Only difference is Oklahoma Built there team

Kyben36
03-29-2012, 08:34 PM
I could see an argument for 2-3, 3 obvious, 2 being that there is a huge drop off after Kobe and wade.

as far as Westbrook being a top 3 PG NO way in hell. there are probably 5 PGs I would take over him

in no particular order

Rose
CP3
D Will
Rondo
Nash
Wall

Kyben36
03-29-2012, 08:34 PM
Only difference is Oklahoma Built there team

Also Durrand doesnt call himself King and step down to Wade in FA to become Queen james

jayjay33
03-29-2012, 08:40 PM
I could see an argument for 2-3, 3 obvious, 2 being that there is a huge drop off after Kobe and wade.

as far as Westbrook being a top 3 PG NO way in hell. there are probably 5 PGs I would take over him

in no particular order

Rose
CP3
D Will
Rondo
Nash
Wall

You really think john wall is better than Russ westbrook?

b@llhog24
03-29-2012, 08:42 PM
Because you misunderstood it. Also, if you like Westbrook so much, the least you could do is spell his name right.

I never said I liked him. And big deal you know who I meant.

tredigs
03-29-2012, 08:49 PM
You really think john wall is better than Russ westbrook?

The fact that he has John Wall as a top 5 but no Tony Parker in sight is telling enough. Dude might be just a bit young/clueless.

I mentioned earlier that you can argue back and forth all day between the top 6 PG's and where they rank (Rose and Paul being the ones that can't be lower than top 3 right now... after playoffs we will know further), but J. Wall was nowhere in mind when I said that.

A healthy Manu has Harden one upped until Harden can prove otherwise in the playoffs - so I agree with those who have him at 4, but Manu's got to stay on the court and show that he's still got it this year in the playoffs (he does, it's just not quite as common). Harden's caught up quick.

Suffice to say, the Thunder almost definitely have a top 5 player at those positions. You can make a VERY strong argument that they have a top 4 at them, and the case is there that they are in fact top 3 at the 1/2/3.

But it won't be until these playoffs are over that we'll know more on the truth of the last one/OP question.

Baller1
03-29-2012, 08:51 PM
I think westy and d-will is a tie for 3. An WHEN manu plays he is rarley ever that MANU anymore. Injuries + age are just too much with him. I got harden locked at 3sg.

Ehhh... Manu is still incredible when he plays, but I do agree that he just doesn't play enough anymore.


I could see an argument for 2-3, 3 obvious, 2 being that there is a huge drop off after Kobe and wade.

as far as Westbrook being a top 3 PG NO way in hell. there are probably 5 PGs I would take over him

in no particular order

Rose
CP3
D Will
Rondo
Nash
Wall

John Wall? Please tell me you're kidding, my god.

jayjay33
03-29-2012, 09:17 PM
The fact that he has John Wall as a top 5 but no Tony Parker in sight is telling enough. Dude might be just a bit young/clueless.

I mentioned earlier that you can argue back and forth all day between the top 6 PG's and where they rank (Rose and Paul being the ones that can't be lower than top 3 right now... after playoffs we will know further), but J. Wall was nowhere in mind when I said that.

A healthy Manu has Harden one upped until Harden can prove otherwise in the playoffs - so I agree with those who have him at 4, but Manu's got to stay on the court and show that he's still got it this year in the playoffs (he does, it's just not quite as common). Harden's caught up quick.

Suffice to say, the Thunder almost definitely have a top 5 player at those positions. You can make a VERY strong argument that they have a top 4 at them, and the case is there that they are in fact top 3 at the 1/2/3.

But it won't be until these playoffs are over that we'll know more on the truth of the last one/OP question.

Good post....i agree westy can be 5 just as easy as 3 you cant really argue it either way, just personal preference i guess. As for harden/manu.....I think manu has to prove he can stay healthy and play at a high level consistently. To regain 3sg......At this point I think manu has more to prove than harden only because he is always hurt. If manu can stay healthy he can take his spot back but that remains to be seen, so as of now i got to give it to the young gun.

UPRock
03-29-2012, 09:19 PM
No because Russel is not a top 3 point guard.

UPRock
03-29-2012, 09:21 PM
Double post :(.

jayjay33
03-29-2012, 09:22 PM
No because Russel is not a top 3 point guard.

IDK man.....he's right, it's very debatable.

Fnom11
03-29-2012, 09:29 PM
Annnnnd the thread has already been brought around to Lebron.

But I agree, and have made that argument. Difference is that Wade is a proven Finals MVP/#1 option who took the reigns once the finals came around. I don't see that being the case with Durant, although it's possible. Time will tell.

I would say that depending on your team needs or how you judge the player, any of the top 6 or so PG's could be argued over one another. But, Westbrook is definitely in that discussion, and probably is in fact top 3 this year. It's close though.

Harden is having one of the most scoring efficient seasons in NBA history from the 2 guard slot (the most, I think. Not at the 20+ PPG level yet though, obviously). And he's a blossoming bonafide AllStar; he does have a case for top 3. 126 O-Rating. .665 TS%. Ho-Lee-****. And, KD is obviously top 2.

Ibaka is closing the gap as a top 7-8 PF as well. Their young guns are monsters.

Love, Griffin, LMA, Bosh, Dirk, KG, Bargiani, Gasol, Amare, Boozer, Randolph, and West are all better than Ibaka. Even Josh Smith or Al Horford depending on how you play them.

alew510
03-29-2012, 09:37 PM
The Lakers are the closest team team to having a top 3 player at 3 different positions and the Heat are a close second.

Lakers
Kobe = #1 sg
Bynum = #2 C
Gasol = # 2-5ish pf (Personally I believe its Love, Pau, Dirk, and then Aldridge)

Heat
Lebron = # 1 sf
Wade = #2 sg
Bosh = # 6-10 ish pf (behind 4 i mentioned and maybe kg and blake)

DeRozan10
03-29-2012, 09:49 PM
Nothing trolling about your original post

And if we are looking at PER

westbrook is #3 for PG's
Harden is #4 for SG(1pt shy of bryant) But ginobli has played so little i think its fair to consider harden top 3 here
and Durant is #2 behind lebron(by quite a bit)

Durent >>> LeBron
Kobe >>> Wade

Fnom11
03-29-2012, 09:50 PM
Durent >>> LeBron
Kobe >>> Wade

Yeah Durent's pretty good.

tredigs
03-29-2012, 10:00 PM
Love, Griffin, LMA, Bosh, Dirk, KG, Bargiani, Gasol, Amare, Boozer, Randolph, and West are all better than Ibaka. Even Josh Smith or Al Horford depending on how you play them.

Don't agree with all of those - namely David West (who D. Lee is easily better than as well) - but like I said he's closing the gap to top 7-8, not quite there. His impact is huge though; we're talking about a guy who's younger than all of them (including Blake Griffin) and blocking shots at a level comparable to some of the best to ever play this game. Just an ultra athletic, very solid rebounder who can throw it down over a house or stretch the floor for a 17 foot jumper. I'd rather have Ibaka than 50% of those PF's you listed going into the 2012/13 season.

Fnom11
03-29-2012, 10:06 PM
Don't agree with all of those - namely David West (who D. Lee is easily better than as well) - but like I said he's closing the gap to top 7-8, not quite there. His impact is huge though; we're talking about a guy who's younger than all of them (including Blake Griffin) and blocking shots at a level comparable to some of the best to ever play this game. Just an ultra athletic, very solid rebounder who can throw it down over a house or stretch the floor for a 17 foot jumper. I'd rather have Ibaka than 50% of those PF's you listed going into the 2012/13 season.

You may rather have them on your team but at least 12 out of those 13 are easily better than Ibaka. I think David West is really underrated, he did very well last year in the playoffs if I remember correctly. I mean Ibaka is a defensive beast, up there with Howard on help defense and a better 10n1 defender than Howard in my opinion but that doesn't make up for his non-existent offense. But that's my opinion.

tredigs
03-29-2012, 10:13 PM
You may rather have them on your team but at least 12 out of those 13 are easily better than Ibaka. I think David West is really underrated, he did very well last year in the playoffs if I remember correctly. I mean Ibaka is a defensive beast, up there with Howard on help defense and a better 10n1 defender than Howard in my opinion but that doesn't make up for his non-existent offense. But that's my opinion.

What's non existent about Ibaka's offense? Continuing to develop that outside jumper very nicely and he's always on the glass grabbing offensive rebounds/throwing them down or staying active for backside dunks. He's efficient and a +offensive player. This isn't Joel Anthony we're talking about. Still growing offensively for sure, but he'd easily put up 14-15 a game on a team that didn't have the top scoring tandem in the game along with the top scoring bench option. He can generally find his buckets if they need it, but that's not his role.

But definitely not a better man defender than Dwight by the way. Actually he was a liability man to man until this season.

jayjay33
03-29-2012, 10:17 PM
The Lakers are the closest team team to having a top 3 player at 3 different positions and the Heat are a close second.

Lakers
Kobe = #1 sg
Bynum = #2 C
Gasol = # 2-5ish pf (Personally I believe its Love, Pau, Dirk, and then Aldridge)

Heat
Lebron = # 1 sf
Wade = #2 sg
Bosh = # 6-10 ish pf (behind 4 i mentioned and maybe kg and blake)

I think the thunder are there and if not. Then they are still closer than la or mia.....imo.

jayjay33
03-29-2012, 10:22 PM
You may rather have them on your team but at least 12 out of those 13 are easily better than Ibaka. I think David West is really underrated, he did very well last year in the playoffs if I remember correctly. I mean Ibaka is a defensive beast, up there with Howard on help defense and a better 10n1 defender than Howard in my opinion but that doesn't make up for his non-existent offense. But that's my opinion.

ibaka can hit shoot the midrange spot up well and catch an finish in traffic that's all the offense he needs with how good he is on D. I would take him over a couple of the guys you named. Unless my team just had no offense in which case it would be more a matter of need.

Fnom11
03-29-2012, 10:23 PM
What's non existent about Ibaka's offense? Continuing to develop that outside jumper very nicely and he's always on the glass grabbing offensive rebounds/throwing them down or staying active for backside dunks. He's efficient and a +offensive player. This isn't Joel Anthony we're talking about. Still growing offensively for sure, but he'd easily put up 14-15 a game on a team that didn't have the top scoring tandem in the game along with the top scoring bench option. He can generally find his buckets if they need it, but that's not his role.

But definitely not a better man defender than Dwight by the way. Actually he was a liability man to man until this season.

Eh Dwight's man to man defense is so overrated it's ridiculous. He just never had any real competition at the position.

And hitting a wide open jumper once a game isn't offense, all his points are usually easy putbacks or open layups off of Westbrooke's and Durant's passes.

Fnom11
03-29-2012, 10:24 PM
ibaka can hit shoot the midrange spot up well and catch an finish in traffic that's all the offense he needs with how good he is on D. I would take him over a couple of the guys you named. Unless my team just had no offense in which case it would be more a matter of need.

Don't get me wrong I mean a lot of people would take him over some of those players depending on what your team needs but I'm very confident he's not top 10 let alone top 7-8

JLynn943
03-29-2012, 10:35 PM
Westbrook and Harden as top 3 players at their position is debatable, imo. At PG, it's much less clear though. Chris Paul is most certainly ahead of him, probably Deron as well. After that it all depends on what you're looking for. Rose, Westbrook, and Nash all have a case. But for SG, I would definitely put Wade, Kobe, and Manu above Harden. Then I think arguments can be made for a healthy Eric Gordon and perhaps Ellis.

So, maybe not 3 Top 3's at their positions, but a top 3 and two top 5s is not too shabby...

Giraffes Rule
03-29-2012, 10:39 PM
I don't have Westbrook in my top 3 PGs or Harden in top 3 SGs, personally.

jayjay33
03-30-2012, 12:05 AM
Westbrook and Harden as top 3 players at their position is debatable, imo. At PG, it's much less clear though. Chris Paul is most certainly ahead of him, probably Deron as well. After that it all depends on what you're looking for. Rose, Westbrook, and Nash all have a case. But for SG, I would definitely put Wade, Kobe, and Manu above Harden. Then I think arguments can be made for a healthy Eric Gordon and perhaps Ellis.

So, maybe not 3 Top 3's at their positions, but a top 3 and two top 5s is not too shabby...

Harden is a better all around player than Gordon or Ellis. An Manu is not better than harden this year. Granted because of injury but it is what it is.

Raph12
03-30-2012, 01:50 AM
Annnnnd the thread has already been brought around to Lebron.

But I agree, and have made that argument. Difference is that Wade is a proven Finals MVP/#1 option who took the reigns once the finals came around. I don't see that being the case with Durant, although it's possible. Time will tell.

I would say that depending on your team needs or how you judge the player, any of the top 6 or so PG's could be argued over one another. But, Westbrook is definitely in that discussion, and probably is in fact top 3 this year. It's close though.

Harden is having one of the most scoring efficient seasons in NBA history from the 2 guard slot (the most, I think. Not at the 20+ PPG level yet though, obviously). And he's a blossoming bonafide AllStar; he does have a case for top 3. 126 O-Rating. .665 TS%. Ho-Lee-****. And, KD is obviously top 2.

Ibaka is closing the gap as a top 7-8 PF as well. Their young guns are monsters.

Can they afford to match for both Harden and Ibaka in 2013? If they can't, who do you think they choose?

Baller1
03-30-2012, 01:54 AM
Can they afford to match for both Harden and Ibaka in 2013? If they can't, who do you think they choose?

I'd rather keep Harden. He's a future superstar.

Mudvayne91
03-30-2012, 01:55 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbB_HVcXpPk That is my opinion of OKC. Maybe a little less extreme.

Feelings aside, they have such a good team.

jayjay33
03-30-2012, 02:26 AM
Annnnnd the thread has already been brought around to Lebron.

But I agree, and have made that argument. Difference is that Wade is a proven Finals MVP/#1 option who took the reigns once the finals came around. I don't see that being the case with Durant, although it's possible. Time will tell.

I would say that depending on your team needs or how you judge the player, any of the top 6 or so PG's could be argued over one another. But, Westbrook is definitely in that discussion, and probably is in fact top 3 this year. It's close though.

Harden is having one of the most scoring efficient seasons in NBA history from the 2 guard slot (the most, I think. Not at the 20+ PPG level yet though, obviously). And he's a blossoming bonafide AllStar; he does have a case for top 3. 126 O-Rating. .665 TS%. Ho-Lee-****. And, KD is obviously top 2.

Ibaka is closing the gap as a top 7-8 PF as well. Their young guns are monsters.

Can they afford to match for both Harden and Ibaka in 2013? If they can't, who do you think they choose?

I just said this a little earlier.
No way they can keep all 4. I think the odd man out is harden.... He's gonna be a max or close to max player. An wit perk contract they might lose ibaka too.

Raph12
03-30-2012, 02:32 AM
I just said this a little earlier.
No way they can keep all 4. I think the odd man out is harden.... He's gonna be a max or close to max player. An wit perk contract they might lose ibaka too.

I'd rather keep Harden. He's a future superstar.

Why not "amnesty" Perk and try to resign both of those guys?

Baller1
03-30-2012, 02:42 AM
Why not "amnesty" Perk and try to resign both of those guys?

That's what I'm praying happens.

jayjay33
03-30-2012, 02:52 AM
I just said this a little earlier.
No way they can keep all 4. I think the odd man out is harden.... He's gonna be a max or close to max player. An wit perk contract they might lose ibaka too.

I'd rather keep Harden. He's a future superstar.

Why not "amnesty" Perk and try to resign both of those guys?

I didn't think of that.......I forgot all about amnesty. That's a very intriguing idea. I like it, but do you think they would actually do it?

Raph12
03-30-2012, 02:59 AM
I didn't think of that.......I forgot all about amnesty. That's a very intriguing idea. I like it, but do you think they would actually do it?

The only reason not to, would be to save money (they'd have to pay Perk regardless), if the owner is willing to spend what it takes to win, they'd do what I suggested.

jayjay33
03-30-2012, 03:45 AM
I didn't think of that.......I forgot all about amnesty. That's a very intriguing idea. I like it, but do you think they would actually do it?

The only reason not to, would be to save money (they'd have to pay Perk regardless), if the owner is willing to spend what it takes to win, they'd do what I suggested.

Yeah but perk just signed that deal....that's a lot of dough and OKC is not excatly Gotham city....

thenaj17
03-30-2012, 04:58 AM
Love, LMA, Griffin and Dirk are the only Pf's clearly better than him. Everyone else would be arguable.

I don't know what you been injecting or smoking but in no way, shape or form is Griffin a top 5 PF. Gasol and Bosh are better than him as are the other 3 you mentioned. At this time i'd still put Z-Bo above Griffin plus maybe Stoudamire.

I love watching Griffin play so don't call me a 'hater', it's just he can't shoot, he makes a poor % FT's and is below average defender.

jayjay33
03-30-2012, 10:33 AM
Should have had a poll. To get a better feel, but it seems like most think they do or they have a strong case they do.

Swashcuff
03-30-2012, 10:46 AM
Did someone really say earlier that Harden is a better defender than Eric Gordon? :confused: Okay then.

Back on track with the topic however I think based solely on this season they really do have 3 players who are top 3 at their respective positions. The SF and the SG are easier calls than the PG though.

Taking nothing away from Harden but the SG can be argued as being the weakest position this season with Manu and Gordon being injured basically this entire season so its easier for him to be in the running for a top 3 rank at his position than Westbrook who plays at arguably the deepest position in the league.

kdspurman
03-30-2012, 11:21 AM
Serious question from a Spurs fan to Thunder/NBA fans. Why is Westbrook considered better than Parker (I'm not seeing any love for Parker in here which is surprising considering he's having an MVP type year)

jayjay33
03-30-2012, 11:23 AM
Did someone really say earlier that Harden is a better defender than Eric Gordon? :confused: Okay then.

Back on track with the topic however I think based solely on this season they really do have 3 players who are top 3 at their respective positions. The SF and the SG are easier calls than the PG though.

Taking nothing away from Harden but the SG can be argued as being the weakest position this season with Manu and Gordon being injured basically this entire season so its easier for him to be in the running for a top 3 rank at his position than Westbrook who plays at arguably the deepest position in the league.

Harden is better than Gordon healthy or not IMO. An I think harden size length and athleticism makes him a better defender.

b@llhog24
03-30-2012, 12:24 PM
I don't know what you been injecting or smoking but in no way, shape or form is Griffin a top 5 PF. Gasol and Bosh are better than him as are the other 3 you mentioned. At this time i'd still put Z-Bo above Griffin plus maybe Stoudamire.

I love watching Griffin play so don't call me a 'hater', it's just he can't shoot, he makes a poor % FT's and is below average defender.

I rarely use the term 'hater' and did you seriously put Z-bo ahead of Griffin and then knock Griffin for his lack of defense? :laugh: Anyways the only Pf's who have played better than him this season are Love and Lma. Gasol and Dirk being arguable. But Blake is better than Amare, WAY better than Bosh and he's probably better than Z-bo even if he's healthy.


Serious question from a Spurs fan to Thunder/NBA fans. Why is Westbrook considered better than Parker (I'm not seeing any love for Parker in here which is surprising considering he's having an MVP type year)

Westbrook is putting up MVP type numbers as well its just that he plays with Kevin Durant. Although they (he and Parker) are about the same.


Harden is better than Gordon healthy or not IMO. An I think harden size length and athleticism makes him a better defender.

Gordon has the athletism, instincts and extremely long wing-span over Harden.

justinnum1
03-30-2012, 12:26 PM
gordon cant even stay healthy...

harden>gordon imo

Swashcuff
03-30-2012, 12:27 PM
Harden is better than Gordon healthy or not IMO. An I think harden size length and athleticism makes him a better defender.

That's your opinion but fact proves otherwise. Your post should read Harden's size, length and athleticism should make him a better defender though he has been one of the worst in that regard at his position this season.

We were not fortunate enough to see a healthy Gordon this season so we honestly don't know how good he would have been.

jayjay33
03-30-2012, 12:44 PM
Harden is better than Gordon healthy or not IMO. An I think harden size length and athleticism makes him a better defender.

That's your opinion but fact proves otherwise. Your post should read Harden's size, length and athleticism should make him a better defender though he has been one of the worst in that regard at his position this season.

We were not fortunate enough to see a healthy Gordon this season so we honestly don't know how good he would have been.

That's not what my eyes tell me when I watch harden.... But I'm always open to other opinions. So when you Watch harden what do you see in his defense that makes him one of the worst?

Baller1
03-30-2012, 12:49 PM
Serious question from a Spurs fan to Thunder/NBA fans. Why is Westbrook considered better than Parker (I'm not seeing any love for Parker in here which is surprising considering he's having an MVP type year)

I really wouldn't have a problem with anyone putting TP above Westbrook. Parker has been amazing this season, and he's eaten OKC alive this season.

With that said however, Westbrook has been absolutely amazing this season in his own right.

kdspurman
03-30-2012, 12:59 PM
I really wouldn't have a problem with anyone putting TP above Westbrook. Parker has been amazing this season, and he's eaten OKC alive this season.

With that said however, Westbrook has been absolutely amazing this season in his own right.

Definitely agree there. It just seems when people talk about PG's this year, Westbrook is always ahead of him. It's like folks forget about what Parker is doing. The other thread about all NBA first team? People are putting CP3, or Westbrook and even Rose ahead of Parker. In my honest opinion, CP3 does not deserve that spot.

tredigs
03-30-2012, 01:05 PM
Definitely agree there. It just seems when people talk about PG's this year, Westbrook is always ahead of him. It's like folks forget about what Parker is doing. The other thread about all NBA first team? People are putting CP3, or Westbrook and even Rose ahead of Parker. In my honest opinion, CP3 does not deserve that spot.

Just playing for San Antonio where he's generally been the third best player on the team and the Spurs being great isn't a story (even if people expected them to finally take a bigger step back this year), the narrative just isn't in his favor. So as a result he's definitely overlooked. But he's definitely part of the 6 or so PG's that can be argued over one another on any given day: Cp3/Westbrook/Rose/Deron/TP/Nash. Rondo's right there too with a few others closing the gap (a healthy Curry, Irving, Lowry, etc).

Disagree with you on Cp3 though. That's the smartest/best PG in the game in my opinion. His command of the game is on a level that I'm not sure anyone else matches, and his efficiency is still king. Advanced stats wise he's also #1.

Yunqn
03-30-2012, 01:09 PM
harden is by default no offense to him at all but if gordon was heathly he would be putting up crazy numbers with ne orleans and because he did good last year it would be hard to say that hardens 1 great year would have been better than gordons 2..so harden yes..

durant is obvs top 3 and top 5 - 6 player on who you ask.. so of course hes going to be in there..

which leads me to westbrook....

is he better than rose paul or williams? i dont think either.. and i know a few STRONG westbrook lovers that can admit he's not..so no.. i think if you can only edge out someone its deron but thats only because westbrook is now getting respect because of his perfomances with the wins and dwill isnt getting any big numbers because teams are doubling him and the nets are losing..

but if you put deron on the thunder they are better.. by alot imo.. ibaka,durant,perk & harden all get quality looks and the floor spreads more given that williams is a better passer and shooter than westbrook...

kdspurman
03-30-2012, 01:16 PM
Just playing for San Antonio where he's generally been the third best player on the team and the Spurs being great isn't a story (even if people expected them to finally take a bigger step back this year), the narrative just isn't in his favor. So as a result he's definitely overlooked. But he's definitely part of the 6 or so PG's that can be argued over one another on any given day: Cp3/Westbrook/Rose/Deron/TP/Nash. Rondo's right there too with a few others closing the gap (a healthy Curry, Irving, Lowry, etc).

Disagree with you on Cp3 though. That's the smartest/best PG in the game in my opinion. His command of the game is on a level that I'm not sure anyone else matches, and his efficiency is still king. Advanced stats wise he's also #1.

Agreed on the first paragraph.

And in terms of CP3, I know he's great. But this year, when the expectations we're so high for the Clippers? I think he and his team are under achieving. Statistically speaking, for the team he's on you would think they would be a little bit better. I just don't think cause he's CP3 he's automatically penciled as the best PG in the game.

Going off this year alone, others have a case for that title. Not saying he's not on that list which he is, but he's not the hands down best PG in the game this year.

jayjay33
03-30-2012, 01:50 PM
That's your opinion but fact proves otherwise. Your post should read Harden's size, length and athleticism should make him a better defender though he has been one of the worst in that regard at his position this season.

We were not fortunate enough to see a healthy Gordon this season so we honestly don't know how good he would have been.

That's certainly true but we also don't know what kind of Numbers harden would be putting up if he was a 1 or 2 option/playmaker without 2 other guys taking all those shots and usage. So I just go with what is right now, since if's can't be quantified. So I have Harden better right now but everything is subject to change.... or as I like to say the crown belongs to the 1 strong enough to hold on to it.

jayjay33
03-30-2012, 02:00 PM
Agreed on the first paragraph.

And in terms of CP3, I know he's great. But this year, when the expectations we're so high for the Clippers? I think he and his team are under achieving. Statistically speaking, for the team he's on you would think they would be a little bit better. I just don't think cause he's CP3 he's automatically penciled as the best PG in the game.

Going off this year alone, others have a case for that title. Not saying he's not on that list which he is, but he's not the hands down best PG in the game this year.

I disagree I don't think you can swap cp3 with any other pg and make the clippers a better team.....imo

He115ing
03-30-2012, 02:03 PM
I am so glad for this thread. Now not only Knicks fans look like idiots.

The answer is no. Neither Durant, Westbrook, or Harden are the best at their positions.

Baller1
03-30-2012, 02:24 PM
I am so glad for this thread. Now not only Knicks fans look like idiots.

The answer is no. Neither Durant, Westbrook, or Harden are the best at their positions.

Irony at its finest here folks.

You basically call the original poster an idiot for this thread and immediately proceed to making a statement that doesn't respond to the original post. Nice.

justinnum1
03-30-2012, 02:25 PM
I am so glad for this thread. Now not only Knicks fans look like idiots.

The answer is no. Neither Durant, Westbrook, or Harden are the best at their positions.

:facepalm:

Op asked if they were top 3

and yes, this season imo all the guys are top 3 at there positions.

FraziersKnicks
03-30-2012, 02:37 PM
PG: No

1. Chris Paul
2. Derrick Rose
3. Deron Williams

SG: No

1. Dwyane Wade
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Manu Ginobili

SF: Yes

1. LeBron James
2. Kevin Durant
3. Carmelo Anthony

This season Westbrook has been a top 3 PG but I would take CP3, Rose and Deron over him.

tredigs
03-30-2012, 02:58 PM
Deron Williams FG% over the last year or so averages out at around 38-39%. He has not been good defensively and he's shown that he can't carry a team to the playoffs - even in a conference where you can do so with a losing record. His stats don't match up favorably to Westbrook and neither does his game. Right now, Westbrook is better than Deron Williams. The onus is on Deron to prove otherwise at this point.

ChiSox219
03-30-2012, 03:05 PM
That's your opinion but fact proves otherwise. Your post should read Harden's size, length and athleticism should make him a better defender though he has been one of the worst in that regard at his position this season.

We were not fortunate enough to see a healthy Gordon this season so we honestly don't know how good he would have been.

based on what?

jayjay33
03-30-2012, 03:06 PM
Irony at its finest here folks.

You basically call the original poster an idiot for this thread and immediately proceed to making a statement that doesn't respond to the original post. Nice.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Super.
03-30-2012, 03:09 PM
Harden is close but I don't think he's top 3 quite yet.

jayjay33
03-30-2012, 03:10 PM
PG: No

1. Chris Paul
2. Derrick Rose
3. Deron Williams

SG: No

1. Dwyane Wade
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Manu Ginobili

SF: Yes

1. LeBron James
2. Kevin Durant
3. Carmelo Anthony

This season Westbrook has been a top 3 PG but I would take CP3, Rose and Deron over him.

Doesnt this plus ginobili hardly playing this season kinda mean they do? Just a thought.

Swashcuff
03-30-2012, 03:10 PM
That's not what my eyes tell me when I watch harden.... But I'm always open to other opinions. So when you Watch harden what do you see in his defense that makes him one of the worst?

Oh I agree my eyes also tell me different but I don't watch Harden as much as I'd need in order to formulate an accurate opinion just based on the 10-12 games I've seen this season. I've seen Harden at times get complacent on the defensive end of the floor while probably focusing a bit too much on just offense.

Your eyes can be objective the facts are not.

If we're talking about eyes I'd say that based on what I've seen Eric Gordon is much better defensively than Harden is.

Redskins10
03-30-2012, 03:10 PM
Yes they do. Westbrook is tied for third, and Harden is clearly third. There's NO disputing that Harden is better than an old, injured Manu.

tredigs
03-30-2012, 03:12 PM
based on what?

I don't see that at all. I think he has plenty of room to improve, but I don't notice him as a liability on defense - and his opponents PER is under the league average against him - for what it's worth.

I like the .665 by your avatar. Harden's TS% right now? Hah.

@Redskin, old and injured? Pretty sure he played every game last year and I see him back out there balling as usual right now. Is he still regaining form? Of course, but you'd be crazy to call that 'NO disputing' for Harden > Manu - and most would say you're flat wrong.

Swashcuff
03-30-2012, 03:14 PM
based on what?

Based on every defensive metric there is available.

tredigs
03-30-2012, 03:24 PM
Based on every defensive metric there is available.

Can you expand on that?

FraziersKnicks
03-30-2012, 03:30 PM
Deron Williams FG% over the last year or so averages out at around 38-39%. He has not been good defensively and he's shown that he can't carry a team to the playoffs - even in a conference where you can do so with a losing record. His stats don't match up favorably to Westbrook and neither does his game. Right now, Westbrook is better than Deron Williams. The onus is on Deron to prove otherwise at this point.

He has been playing on an absolutely atrocious team though.. With his second best player being a hustle, energy guy and a trigger happy rookie. I still think Deron is a much better floor general and would love to see how far Westbrook could take that Nets team.

I think Westbrook has played better this season, but I still want Deron running point on my team over Westbrook..

ChiSox219
03-30-2012, 03:32 PM
I don't see that at all. I think he has plenty of room to improve, but I don't notice him as a liability on defense - and his opponents PER is under the league average against him - for what it's worth.

I like the .665 by your avatar. Harden's TS% right now? Hah.


I see the same as you, Harden's far from a liability especially compared to others at his position.

Gotta update the avatar, harden's ts% plummeted to .659 after last night :(

FraziersKnicks
03-30-2012, 03:33 PM
Doesnt this plus ginobili hardly playing this season kinda mean they do? Just a thought.

Once again, Harden has played better than Ginobili.. By default because he's actually BEEN on the court. But I still believe Ginobili is the better player.. In a year or two years time, I'm pretty sure thats gonna be different, but as it stands for me I have Manu ahead of him.

Baller1
03-30-2012, 03:36 PM
I see the same as you, Harden's far from a liability especially compared to others at his position.

Gotta update the avatar, harden's ts% plummeted to .659 after last night :(

:(

Swashcuff
03-30-2012, 03:44 PM
I don't see that at all. I think he has plenty of room to improve, but I don't notice him as a liability on defense - and his opponents PER is under the league average against him - for what it's worth.

I like the .665 by your avatar. Harden's TS% right now? Hah.

@Redskin, old and injured? Pretty sure he played every game last year and I see him back out there balling as usual right now. Is he still regaining form? Of course, but you'd be crazy to call that 'NO disputing' for Harden > Manu - and most would say you're flat wrong.

Harden is the the thirty from worst defender in the NBA according to RAPM (counting every player in the league).

Harden's Defense PER 100 compared to that of other SGs in the league.


Name Defense per 100
Manu Ginobili 1.2
Vince Carter 2.6
Dwyane Wade -0.2
Kobe Bryant -0.1
James Harden -1.9
Tony Allen 2.4
Joe Johnson -0.1
Ronnie Brewer 2.8
Ray Allen -0.7
Paul George 1.2
Jason Terry -1.1
Louis Willaims -1.5
Jodie Meeks 0.0
Arron Afflalo -1.4
Rodney Stuckey -0.6
Tyreke Evans -0.2
Marshon Brooks -2.6

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ranking_rec

I'm not nitpicking here I've chosen SGs who are considered among the league's best defensive and a couple who are considered among the not so best. Harden is the one of the worst of the bunch.

If we're talking about OPP PER he's middle of the pack among SGs with Stuckey, Evans, Afflalo, Brooks and Paul George being the only regulars at the SG position who have a worse OPP PER than he does.

http://www.82games.com/1112/ROLRTG3.HTM

Harden has really taken a step backwards defensively this season. No doubt the ability is there (as we've seen in the past especially when he guarded Kobe) but the impact has not been.

ChiSox219
03-30-2012, 03:57 PM
Harden is the the thirty from worst defender in the NBA according to RAPM (counting every player in the league).

Harden's Defense PER 100 compared to that of other SGs in the league.


Name Defense per 100
Manu Ginobili 1.2
Vince Carter 2.6
Dwyane Wade -0.2
Kobe Bryant -0.1
James Harden -1.9
Tony Allen 2.4
Joe Johnson -0.1
Ronnie Brewer 2.8
Ray Allen -0.7
Paul George 1.2
Jason Terry -1.1
Louis Willaims -1.5
Jodie Meeks 0.0
Arron Afflalo -1.4
Rodney Stuckey -0.6
Tyreke Evans -0.2
Marshon Brooks -2.6

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ranking_rec

I'm not nitpicking here I've chosen SGs who are considered among the league's best defensive and a couple who are considered among the not so best. Harden is the one of the worst of the bunch.

If we're talking about OPP PER he's middle of the pack among SGs with Stuckey, Evans, Afflalo, Brooks and Paul George being the only regulars at the SG position who have a worse OPP PER than he does.

http://www.82games.com/1112/ROLRTG3.HTM

Harden has really taken a step backwards defensively this season. No doubt the ability is there (as we've seen in the past especially when he guarded Kobe) but the impact has not been.

The first link you posted samples only Harden's first 30 games in an aberration of a season, RAPM needs a larger sample than that to be useful.

I don't find opponent PER particularly telling but don't really have an argument about its merits.

As far as taking a step back, I thought he's improved this year, this is what really puzzled me about your original comment.


Synergy tracks every play and is up to date so if we have to use defensive metrics, that's my pick and Synergy confirms what the rest of us see on court, Harden is a solid defender.

Swashcuff
03-30-2012, 04:10 PM
The first link you posted samples only Harden's first 30 games in an aberration of a season, RAPM needs a larger sample than that to be useful.

I don't find opponent PER particularly telling but don't really have an argument about its merits.

As far as taking a step back, I thought he's improved this year, this is what really puzzled me about your original comment.


Synergy tracks every play and is up to date so if we have to use defensive metrics, that's my pick and Synergy confirms what the rest of us see on court, Harden is a solid defender.

For those of us who don't have access to Synergy's #s could you post some for us and tell us Harden's positional ranking in that regard.

Also I know you like the Basketball Value #s

http://basketballvalue.com/topplayers.php?year=2011-2012&mode=summary&sortnumber=85&sortorder=DESC

If we speak of the on/off splits according to 82games.com as well even in that regard he has regressed defensively and he's worst than that of his relative peers.

I'd really like to see his Synergy #s where he ranks compared to his peers because damn near every other defensive metric out there points to him being a below average defender at his position this season.

jayjay33
03-30-2012, 04:16 PM
Harden is the the thirty from worst defender in the NBA according to RAPM (counting every player in the league).

Harden's Defense PER 100 compared to that of other SGs in the league.


Name Defense per 100
Manu Ginobili 1.2
Vince Carter 2.6
Dwyane Wade -0.2
Kobe Bryant -0.1
James Harden -1.9
Tony Allen 2.4
Joe Johnson -0.1
Ronnie Brewer 2.8
Ray Allen -0.7
Paul George 1.2
Jason Terry -1.1
Louis Willaims -1.5
Jodie Meeks 0.0
Arron Afflalo -1.4
Rodney Stuckey -0.6
Tyreke Evans -0.2
Marshon Brooks -2.6

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ranking_rec

I'm not nitpicking here I've chosen SGs who are considered among the league's best defensive and a couple who are considered among the not so best. Harden is the one of the worst of the bunch.

If we're talking about OPP PER he's middle of the pack among SGs with Stuckey, Evans, Afflalo, Brooks and Paul George being the only regulars at the SG position who have a worse OPP PER than he does.

http://www.82games.com/1112/ROLRTG3.HTM

Harden has really taken a step backwards defensively this season. No doubt the ability is there (as we've seen in the past especially when he guarded Kobe) but the impact has not been.


This also has vince carter as better defender than toney allen. That kind of kills it for me.

ChiSox219
03-30-2012, 04:22 PM
For those of us who don't have access to Synergy's #s could you post some for us and tell us Harden's positional ranking in that regard.

Also I know you like the Basketball Value #s

http://basketballvalue.com/topplayers.php?year=2011-2012&mode=summary&sortnumber=85&sortorder=DESC

If we speak of the on/off splits according to 82games.com as well even in that regard he has regressed defensively and he's worst than that of his relative peers.

I'd really like to see his Synergy #s where he ranks compared to his peers because damn near every other defensive metric out there points to him being a below average defender at his position this season.

116th overall
opponents FG% = 34.6
isolation: 166th
P&R ball handler: 74th
Spot up: 122nd
Off Screen: 20th


on/offs are too clouded to be of much use for evaluating individuals. Sefolosha is the guy that's usually in when Harden is out and Thabo is an elite defender so it makes sense to see a split. Harden spends a lot of time playing with Nazr and Collison as opposed to say, Ibaka and Perkins.

p.s. on/offs are cool if we are talking about Blake being #2 overall :)

Swashcuff
03-30-2012, 04:30 PM
This also has vince carter as better defender than toney allen. That kind of kills it for me.

Thats why when attempting to gauge a player's defensive worth you don't use just one stat. You couple the different variables with what you see and formulate an opinion. No one stat is going to be right all the time, not even the synergy stats.

In defense of Carter as well he has done a decent job defensively this season. Is he as good as his RAPM would suggest? Hell no but he has been no slouch on that end of the floor.


116th overall
opponents FG% = 34.6
isolation: 166th
P&R ball handler: 74th
Spot up: 122nd
Off Screen: 20th


on/offs are too clouded to be of much use for evaluating individuals. Sefolosha is the guy that's usually in when Harden is out and Thabo is an elite defender so it makes sense to see a split. Harden spends a lot of time playing with Nazr and Collison as opposed to say, Ibaka and Perkins.

p.s. on/offs are cool if we are talking about Blake being #2 overall :)

I vividly remember you using on/offs last season however to state why you thought Deng was as good as he was defensively :eyebrow:

Also adjusted on/offs do their very best to account for whomever a player may be on the floor with at any given time. Now its not fool proof but its as accurate enough to paint a good enough picture

I understand your POV but IMO those Synergy ranks is not that of a player that one would consider a top tier defensive player.

jayjay33
03-30-2012, 04:31 PM
116th overall
opponents FG% = 34.6
isolation: 166th
P&R ball handler: 74th
Spot up: 122nd
Off Screen: 20th


on/offs are too clouded to be of much use for evaluating individuals. Sefolosha is the guy that's usually in when Harden is out and Thabo is an elite defender so it makes sense to see a split. Harden spends a lot of time playing with Nazr and Collison as opposed to say, Ibaka and Perkins.

p.s. on/offs are cool if we are talking about Blake being #2 overall :)

If that's one of the worst in the league then no one should ever make a shot......

jayjay33
03-30-2012, 04:37 PM
Thats why when attempting to gauge a player's defensive worth you don't use just one stat. You couple the different variables with what you see and formulate an opinion. No one stat is going to be right all the time, not even the synergy stats.

In defense of Carter as well he has done a decent job defensively this season. Is he as good as his RAPM would suggest? Hell no but he has been no slouch on that end of the floor.



I vividly remember you using on/offs last season however to state why you thought Deng was as good as he was defensively :eyebrow:

Also adjusted on/offs do their very best to account for whomever a player may be on the floor with at any given time. Now its not fool proof but its as accurate enough to paint a good enough picture

I understand your POV but IMO those Synergy ranks is not that of a player that one would consider a top tier defensive player.

well how about we just split the difference and say Harden is a very good defender, when he wants to be.

ChiSox219
03-30-2012, 04:45 PM
Thats why when attempting to gauge a player's defensive worth you don't use just one stat. You couple the different variables with what you see and formulate an opinion. No one stat is going to be right all the time, not even the synergy stats.

In defense of Carter as well he has done a decent job defensively this season. Is he as good as his RAPM would suggest? Hell no but he has been no slouch on that end of the floor.



I vividly remember you using on/offs last season however to state why you thought Deng was as good as he was defensively :eyebrow:

Also adjusted on/offs do their very best to account for whomever a player may be on the floor with at any given time. Now its not fool proof but its as accurate enough to paint a good enough picture

I understand your POV but IMO those Synergy ranks is not that of a player that one would consider a top tier defensive player.

First off, you have some memory because you are always bringing up things people may have said in the past as if things and opinions don't change. I don't know if I said that about Deng but looking it up, his on/off net was 0.26 last year so not much of a point there.

But again, I'm good with on/offs if you're willing to recognize Blake's greatness


The on/offs you linked me to were unadjusted.


I never said Harden was a top tier defensive player, you said he was one of the worst.

joe1nas
04-03-2012, 06:44 PM
people are overrating chris paul he is not the best pg in the leauge hes not better than williams or rose

justinnum1
04-03-2012, 06:55 PM
people are overrating chris paul he is not the best pg in the leauge hes not better than williams or rose

Yes, yes he is.

FraziersKnicks
04-03-2012, 06:59 PM
people are overrating chris paul he is not the best pg in the leauge hes not better than williams or rose

A sure fire way to prove you have little knowledge of the sport of basketball...

joe1nas
04-03-2012, 07:03 PM
A sure fire way to prove you have little knowledge of the sport of basketball...

hes not williams owns him every time they play he better all around scorer they're pretty close in playmaking ability not to mention williams is a better man to man defender and paul is not messing with rose the only thing hes better at is passing

Furymaker
04-03-2012, 07:10 PM
Rose is the best PG in league , he proved it time and time again , CP3 , Westbrook , D-Will , Parker fill out the top 5. Nash,Rondo,Lawson,Lowry,Kyrie are my next five , Wall is just too inconsistent to get in over these guys

jayjay33
04-03-2012, 09:55 PM
paul is better than rose and I'd take deron over rose as well although that's more a matter of preference I like deron's all around game better than rose's

Pakman
04-03-2012, 10:39 PM
LOL at harden being top SG.

b@llhog24
04-03-2012, 10:45 PM
A sure fire way to prove you have little knowledge of the sport of basketball...
Agreed.


hes not williams owns him every time they play he better all around scorer they're pretty close in playmaking ability not to mention williams is a better man to man defender and paul is not messing with rose the only thing hes better at is passing
:laugh2:


Rose is the best PG in league , he proved it time and time again , CP3 , Westbrook , D-Will , Parker fill out the top 5. Nash,Rondo,Lawson,Lowry,Kyrie are my next five , Wall is just too inconsistent to get in over these guys
How has he proven that?

LOL at harden being top SG.

Not THE top, the Op is asking if he is a top 3 player at his position. But he's top 3-4.

NBA_Starter
04-03-2012, 10:46 PM
Not the 3

Blitzbolt
04-03-2012, 11:14 PM
Replace ''Players'' with ball hog's and then yes.

b@llhog24
04-03-2012, 11:17 PM
Replace ''Players'' with ball hog's and then yes.

So you'd rather Kendrick Perkins to take over games? :eyebrow:

Blitzbolt
04-03-2012, 11:23 PM
So you'd rather Kendrick Perkins to take over games? :eyebrow:

Well no But they take all the shots and I don't blame them I'm just saying that their big 3 take all the shots much Like Miami so they will always be up there in points..

b@llhog24
04-03-2012, 11:24 PM
Well no But they take all the shots and I don't blame them I'm just saying that their big 3 take all the shots much Like Miami so they will always be up there in points..

Fair enough.

BullsFTW
04-03-2012, 11:34 PM
Small Forward
1. LeBron
2. Durant
3. Melo
4. Pierce
5. Deng
Shooting Guard
1. Wade
2. Kobe
3. E. Gordon
4. Harden
5. Ginobili
Point Guard
1. Rose
2. CP3
3. D-Will
4. Rondo
5. Westbrook

Rndy
04-03-2012, 11:40 PM
This year yes they do. We'll have to see for the future how Harden and Westbrook can continue to get better which they should.

I do want Thunder to fail not because of there players though. I just really wish they could have done this with the Sonics. Losing to the Bulls losing Kurt Cobain they deserved this.

drew_ellis_23
04-03-2012, 11:47 PM
All that matters is if Miami makes the finals to play OKC. Cause if they get by the Bulls, they will lose.

Furymaker
04-04-2012, 04:18 AM
Agreed.


:laugh2:


How has he proven that?


Not THE top, the Op is asking if he is a top 3 player at his position. But he's top 3-4.


You don't watch much of NBA , do you ?

jammastershake
04-04-2012, 05:20 AM
Why did that guy say john wall is better than r-westbrook? I wish he would come back so I could tell him what an idiot comment that was.

b@llhog24
04-04-2012, 12:22 PM
You don't watch much of NBA , do you ?

How does this answer my question? :confused: And even if you assumed i don't why wouldn't try to deter my 'perceived' ignorance by actually answering?

Furymaker
04-04-2012, 02:01 PM
How does this answer my question? :confused: And even if you assumed i don't why wouldn't try to deter my 'perceived' ignorance by actually answering?

Well if I give you head to head matchups against every point guard in league , you'll gimme some **** like "His team is better , matchups doesn't matter , or stuff like that " .
Dude averaged 25ppg 8apg , lead team to best record in NBA , doing same this year ( except injuries )
And the guy who is said to be the best PG in league got absolutely destroyed by him in their last match up - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8FAmOjKF_k

and your comment on all this will be " i dont care , match ups doesn't prove anything , cp3 is the best , etc. "

b@llhog24
04-04-2012, 06:48 PM
Well if I give you head to head matchups against every point guard in league , you'll gimme some **** like "His team is better , matchups doesn't matter , or stuff like that " .
Dude averaged 25ppg 8apg , lead team to best record in NBA , doing same this year ( except injuries )
And the guy who is said to be the best PG in league got absolutely destroyed by him in their last match up - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8FAmOjKF_k

and your comment on all this will be " i dont care , match ups doesn't prove anything , cp3 is the best , etc. "

Well its not like I'm wrong. But think about it like this Paul is essentially a better player than Rose in every aspect except scoring and maybe defense. Its kind off a simplified arguement but I don't really feel like getting into to dead. There is some argument to that claim that Rose is in fact the best pg. I just personally don't buy it.

toronto#1fan
04-04-2012, 07:05 PM
how over rated is james harden becoming r u kidding me the best at his poistion lolol

smith&wesson
04-04-2012, 07:09 PM
no harden is not a top 3 player at his postion.

and westbrook is arguable.

smith&wesson
04-04-2012, 07:09 PM
how over rated is james harden becoming r u kidding me the best at his poistion lolol

+1

Baller1
04-04-2012, 10:28 PM
how over rated is james harden becoming r u kidding me the best at his poistion lolol

No one said he's the best at his position.

toronto#1fan
04-04-2012, 10:53 PM
well even if nobody said he is the best at his position, he is still over rated. Dont get me wrong he is a very good player, not an all star yet but could be in the future. one of the best sixth man in the league but by no means is he a top player in the nba, not even close.

b@llhog24
04-05-2012, 01:15 AM
well even if nobody said he is the best at his position, he is still over rated. Dont get me wrong he is a very good player, not an all star yet but could be in the future. one of the best sixth man in the league but by no means is he a top player in the nba, not even close.

Depends on your definition of close the guy is a top 20 player tbh.

Furymaker
04-05-2012, 04:14 AM
I've always thought Gordon is better than Harden , now when he's healthy we'll get to see him again as #1 player at NOH.

jayjay33
04-10-2012, 01:47 PM
well even if nobody said he is the best at his position, he is still over rated. Dont get me wrong he is a very good player, not an all star yet but could be in the future. one of the best sixth man in the league but by no means is he a top player in the nba, not even close.

Name 3 shooting guards who have been definitively better than harden "this year"..........