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View Full Version : PSD Best Player in Baseball - Championship Game 1 vs 6



Jeffy25
03-29-2012, 04:27 PM
Matt Kemp vs Jose Bautista

Jeffy25
03-29-2012, 04:36 PM
Personally, I wouldn't vote for either of these guys number 1, but I'll take Bautista simply because he has two years of his success level to Kemp's one.

Defensive positioning has some value here, center vs right/3B. But it's not like Kemp is an amazing defensive centerfielder for it to really matter.

Bautista has had the bat

2011
Kemp - .324/.399/.586 - .419 wOBA, 171 wRC+ 8.7 fWAR
Bautista - .302/.447/.608 - .441 wOBA, 181 wRC+ 8.3 fWAR

2010-2011
Kemp - .287/.355./518, .371 wOBA, 136 wRC+, 9.1 fWAR
Bautista - .280/.412/.613, .431 wOBA, 174 wRC+, 15.2 fWAR


Kemp getting voted number 1 here is like Bautista getting voted number 1 last year, it's too soon to give the guy that praise just yet, he'll need to show he can repeat it before he can be crowned the best player in baseball. And honestly, Bautista had a better year last year any way. Only thing Kemp does that Bautista doesn't is steal bases, and I guess you can give him credit for playing center. That isn't enough to make up for the differences in their bats and the fact that Bautista has done it twice, to Kemp's once.

sexicano31
03-29-2012, 04:43 PM
How the **** did Kemp beat Tulo?

es0terik
03-29-2012, 04:58 PM
Exactly. Kemp vs Tulo would have been something I would have pondered on for a while, this poll is easy for me. Mostly going with everything Jeffy said and then also gonna point out that Bautista is far and away the best player in the game at his position (like Tulo) while Kemp is competing with guys like Ellsbury and Granderson.

Farsight
03-29-2012, 05:02 PM
Personally, I think the 3 best positional players in the game currently are Tulo, Votto and Bautisa. If Tulo was in the finals I would vote for him over Bautisa, but this is not the current predicament. As it stands right now I will go with Bautista as Jeffy highlighted the main concerns with Kemp

homestarunner93
03-29-2012, 05:05 PM
This is horrible. Bautista shouldn't have even won his first round match up.

treeleaf
03-29-2012, 05:05 PM
Its kinda hard to vote against that 15.2 fWAR

es0terik
03-29-2012, 05:06 PM
This is horrible. Bautista shouldn't have even won his first round match up.

:laugh2: I'm not surprised that the first person to make a comment of that sort was you.

ThunderZubb
03-29-2012, 05:10 PM
Jose bautisa is the best player in the league hands down. I know red sox fans are not going to agree but Jose stats speaks for it self

es0terik
03-29-2012, 05:12 PM
Jose bautisa is the best player in the league hands down. I know red sox fans are not going to agree but Jose stats speaks for it self

That's why you voted for Kemp? lol

treeleaf
03-29-2012, 05:15 PM
That's why you voted for Kemp? lol

LOOOL

Misclick?

JermanJaysFan
03-29-2012, 05:17 PM
As hilarious as it sounds: Bautista because longevity.

KingPosey
03-29-2012, 06:00 PM
longevity, and not because youre a Jays fan and he is in your sig?

treeleaf
03-29-2012, 06:15 PM
longevity, and not because youre a Jays fan and he is in your sig?

Ok so please argue how kemp has been consistantly a better player than bauts over the last two years.

I understand that if you have someone in your sig, your probably biased. But atleast he has a valid reason.

EVIL EMPIRE
03-29-2012, 06:49 PM
Jose bautisa is the best player in the league hands down. I know red sox fans are not going to agree but Jose stats speaks for it self

No.

And I don't have any fancy stats to back that up, but in my opinion, your statement is very far from the truth...

By the way, Pujols says hi.

He's done it much longer than 2 years and still going. Guys like Miggy, AGon, even ARod, are still better players than Bautista at this point. They've all done it longer than Bautista. And quite simply, 2 years does not a career make. If Bautista does it for as long as Pujols has, consistently, then we might have an argument but until then fancy stats will not change my mind.

I mean, we are basically talking about a player who was a scrub, tweaked his swing a bit, and suddenly became a really good hitter. In my opinion, that is not a reason to proclaim him the best in the game, no way.

Again, this is just my opinion and that's what these forums are for, right?...

sexicano31
03-29-2012, 06:56 PM
"Your statement is wrong but I dont have anything to back it up"

the_jon
03-29-2012, 07:06 PM
"Your statement is wrong but I dont have anything to back it up"
That's pretty much where I stopped reading.

Jeffy25
03-29-2012, 07:06 PM
No.

And I don't have any fancy stats to back that up, but in my opinion, your statement is very far from the truth...

By the way, Pujols says hi.

He's done it much longer than 2 years and still going. Guys like Miggy, AGon, even ARod, are still better players than Bautista at this point. They've all done it longer than Bautista. And quite simply, 2 years does not a career make. If Bautista does it for as long as Pujols has, consistently, then we might have an argument but until then fancy stats will not change my mind.

I mean, we are basically talking about a player who was a scrub, tweaked his swing a bit, and suddenly became a really good hitter. In my opinion, that is not a reason to proclaim him the best in the game, no way.

Again, this is just my opinion and that's what these forums are for, right?...

The question isn't asking for best career.

It's asking for who is the best player in baseball right now, heading into Opening Day 2012. Who is likely to have the best 2012 season basically.

And Jose Bautista is probably the right answer between these two, and probably the right answer overall.

the_jon
03-29-2012, 07:11 PM
Question: If you were among those who believes Jose isn't currently a top 2 player, would you change your mind if he put up one more year of dominance?

Also too, if Pujols numbers continue to dip, would you still consider him a top 5 player?

long ball
03-29-2012, 07:56 PM
I'd take Bautista.

If I were to start a team I would go with tulowitzki though because there are really only a handful of good ss in the league.

EaglesJackson10
03-29-2012, 08:01 PM
It's kind of hard to argue Kemp as number one when he was as bad as he was in 2010 while Bautista was that good. Kemps value at his position is pretty much the only argument and he doesn't really play good defense at that position anyway.

Mudvayne91
03-29-2012, 08:05 PM
How the **** did Kemp beat Tulo?
Seems a bit foolish, no?

EaglesJackson10
03-29-2012, 08:51 PM
Kemp was better than Tulo last year to be fair. I would probably place my money on Tulo to be better in the future but I get why Kemp one. He was the best player in the NL last year possibly the best in baseball.

JermanJaysFan
03-29-2012, 09:08 PM
longevity, and not because youre a Jays fan and he is in your sig?
Longevity.

SportsAndrew25
03-29-2012, 09:58 PM
Bautista. He has killed it the past 2 years.

1903
03-29-2012, 10:50 PM
Cabrera/Halladay would have been my picks for the finals. Anyways I will take Jose here based on his last couple of years.

TO Rapz
03-29-2012, 10:56 PM
Jose<3

chi-townlove1
03-29-2012, 11:47 PM
Can someone please answer how pujols votto miggy or alot of other guys were not in this championship. I havent been following but it's very mind boggling to me how players of this caliber are being considered best in the game. Id take kemp over Bautista but my god neither are close to best in game. Shame on psd

JermanJaysFan
03-29-2012, 11:53 PM
Can someone please answer how pujols votto miggy or alot of other guys were not in this championship. I havent been following but it's very mind boggling to me how players of this caliber are being considered best in the game. Id take kemp over Bautista but my god neither are close to best in game. Shame on psd
I agree that the guys you mentioned should absolutely be in the conversation, but the bolded statement is certainly off the mark.

The reason why those guys aren't here in the final right now is mainly due to very poor seeding and some unfortunate early matchups caused by that seeding, which knocked some deserving candidates out early.

LASportsFan1996
03-29-2012, 11:56 PM
Kemp. No Doubt. Total Package. .320 AVE Gold Glove 40 HR 40 SB. Total Package

es0terik
03-30-2012, 12:26 AM
Question: If you were among those who believes Jose isn't currently a top 2 player, would you change your mind if he put up one more year of dominance?

Also too, if Pujols numbers continue to dip, would you still consider him a top 5 player?

I don't consider Pujols a Top 5 player even now. I would take Bautista, Kemp, Braun, Votto, Tulowitzki, and Cabrera all very easily before I took Pujols. Depending on what day of the week it was, I might even take Gonzalez and Longoria over him. If his numbers continue to dip, he'll even fall out of the top 10 in my eyes.

Btw, that was just concerning hitters. If I include pitchers, it pushes him further down the list. I understand Pujols had a great career, probably enough to warrant a first ballot hall of fame berth. Going into 2012 though, I don't care what a guy did three years ago, regardless of if you're Pujols, Bonds or Babe Ruth.

Pfeifer
03-30-2012, 12:46 AM
I don't think people are giving Bautista enough credit defensively. He has a cannon for an arm to go with the bat.

treeleaf
03-30-2012, 01:00 AM
I don't think people are giving Bautista enough credit defensively. He has a cannon for an arm to go with the bat.

Plus he plays a good third base.

VRP723
03-30-2012, 02:13 AM
Bautista is obviously better, I voted Kemp because I know he already lost, but I did vote Tulo last round.

What baffles me is the people who are STILL clamoring for Pujols. In no way is Pujols better than Votto, let alone Bautista.

BlueJayFanDan
03-30-2012, 07:25 AM
I love both players a lot. Matt Kemp is kind of like a less talented modern day Willie Mays type of hitter. Bautista came out of nowhere to hit home run after home run. I think the fact that Bautista hit .302 last season with the power numbers he put up as opposed to the .260 average he put up the season before, is what makes him far more elite as a player. That in my mind puts him over the top. It's honestly close because Kemp does have that added base stealing ability to go along with his huge power and contact hitting. But I think right now, Bautista is just a bit better than Kemp.

Also, VRP, I would like your explanation on how Pujols is worse than Votto...I don't necessarily 100% disagree, but to base that off of 1 down season from Pujols where his numbers are still better than 95% of the league seems a little ridiculous. I admit, last season is hideous compared to the rest of his career, but that in no way should make him fall off the charts that much...

JermanJaysFan
03-30-2012, 09:09 AM
I love both players a lot. Matt Kemp is kind of like a less talented modern day Willie Mays type of hitter. Bautista came out of nowhere to hit home run after home run. I think the fact that Bautista hit .302 last season with the power numbers he put up as opposed to the .260 average he put up the season before, is what makes him far more elite as a player. That in my mind puts him over the top. It's honestly close because Kemp does have that added base stealing ability to go along with his huge power and contact hitting. But I think right now, Bautista is just a bit better than Kemp.

Also, VRP, I would like your explanation on how Pujols is worse than Votto...I don't necessarily 100% disagree, but to base that off of 1 down season from Pujols where his numbers are still better than 95% of the league seems a little ridiculous. I admit, last season is hideous compared to the rest of his career, but that in no way should make him fall off the charts that much...
I'm not VRP, but here:

2010
Pujols: .312/.414/.596, with a .420 wOBA and a 165 wRC+, 7.5 fWAR
Votto: .324/.424/.600, with a .439 wOBA and a 173 wRC+, 7.3 fWAR

2011
Pujols: .299/.366/.541, with a .385 wOBA and a 148 wRC+, 5.1 fWAR
Votto: .309/.416/.531, with a .403 wOBA and a 155 wRC+, 6.9 fWAR

Over the past two years, Votto has been a better hitter and a better defender. Additionally, Pujols seems to be hitting a decline (his "declined" phase is still pretty ****ing good), as he has been losing value across the board in the triple slash categories/wOBA/wRC+ since 2009.

todu82
03-30-2012, 09:58 AM
Thisclose but I went with Matt Kemp.

treeleaf
03-30-2012, 10:41 AM
Bautista is obviously better, I voted Kemp because I know he already lost, but I did vote Tulo last round.

What baffles me is the people who are STILL clamoring for Pujols. In no way is Pujols better than Votto, let alone Bautista.

:clap:

VRP723
03-30-2012, 10:51 AM
I'm not VRP, but here:

2010
Pujols: .312/.414/.596, with a .420 wOBA and a 165 wRC+, 7.5 fWAR
Votto: .324/.424/.600, with a .439 wOBA and a 173 wRC+, 7.3 fWAR

2011
Pujols: .299/.366/.541, with a .385 wOBA and a 148 wRC+, 5.1 fWAR
Votto: .309/.416/.531, with a .403 wOBA and a 155 wRC+, 6.9 fWAR

Over the past two years, Votto has been a better hitter and a better defender. Additionally, Pujols seems to be hitting a decline (his "declined" phase is still pretty ****ing good), as he has been losing value across the board in the triple slash categories/wOBA/wRC+ since 2009.

Yup. Pujols is still a great hitter obviously, but the "best hitter in the game" title is gone.

es0terik
03-30-2012, 03:25 PM
I'm not VRP, but here:

2010
Pujols: .312/.414/.596, with a .420 wOBA and a 165 wRC+, 7.5 fWAR
Votto: .324/.424/.600, with a .439 wOBA and a 173 wRC+, 7.3 fWAR

2011
Pujols: .299/.366/.541, with a .385 wOBA and a 148 wRC+, 5.1 fWAR
Votto: .309/.416/.531, with a .403 wOBA and a 155 wRC+, 6.9 fWAR

Over the past two years, Votto has been a better hitter and a better defender. Additionally, Pujols seems to be hitting a decline (his "declined" phase is still pretty ****ing good), as he has been losing value across the board in the triple slash categories/wOBA/wRC+ since 2009.
That isn't even the half of it. He's also suffered a significant decline everywhere else over the last three years. His BB/K has suffered immensely, he's losing his plate discipline/chasing pitches, his power has dropped, even his counting stats are getting worse and worse each year.

Jeffy25
03-30-2012, 04:02 PM
I agree that the guys you mentioned should absolutely be in the conversation, but the bolded statement is certainly off the mark.

The reason why those guys aren't here in the final right now is mainly due to very poor seeding and some unfortunate early matchups caused by that seeding, which knocked some deserving candidates out early.

Yeah, if I had done this based on my own personal rankings and had you guys do the votes, I bet the title would have ended better.

JermanJaysFan
03-30-2012, 06:52 PM
That isn't even the half of it. He's also suffered a significant decline everywhere else over the last three years. His BB/K has suffered immensely, he's losing his plate discipline/chasing pitches, his power has dropped, even his counting stats are getting worse and worse each year.
That's all covered in triple slash/wOBA/wRC+ :)

es0terik
03-31-2012, 02:07 AM
That's all covered in triple slash/wOBA/wRC+ :)

Well that's what I get for not knowing anything about how wOBA and wRC+ is calculated :o

natepro
03-31-2012, 06:42 AM
I'm so confused.

BlueJayFanDan
03-31-2012, 07:10 AM
I'm so confused.

Yeah, I'm starting to remember why I stopped posting in the MLB forum for a while. I forgot how much I don't give a crap about these ridiculous advanced stats.

VRP723
03-31-2012, 12:07 PM
Yeah, I'm starting to remember why I stopped posting in the MLB forum for a while. I forgot how much I don't give a crap about these ridiculous advanced stats.

I don't think that's why natepro is confused lol

EVIL EMPIRE
03-31-2012, 01:38 PM
"Your statement is wrong but I dont have anything to back it up"

No one is saying that his statement is factually wrong. It was an opinion, lighten up.

I backed up my opinion, with more opinions.

You should really try to get over yourself.

EVIL EMPIRE
03-31-2012, 01:46 PM
The question isn't asking for best career.

It's asking for who is the best player in baseball right now, heading into Opening Day 2012. Who is likely to have the best 2012 season basically.

And Jose Bautista is probably the right answer between these two, and probably the right answer overall.

Ok. I'll still take Pujols, Miggy and AGon to all have better years than Bautista...

And I'll also say that heading into opening day 2012, all the above mentioned are better players than Bautista. I think Bautista is good enough to be on that list, but all those guys are in front of him, at the very least.

If I was forced to choose between Kemp and Bautista though, I'd probably take Bautista. Not by much though.

Nymfan87
03-31-2012, 02:12 PM
Anyone who thinks Bautista is not the best player in baseball right now has simply not been paying attention the past two seasons.

KingPosey
04-04-2012, 06:16 PM
Longevity.

lol riiiiight. He had a great half of one season last year, and he hit a lot of Hrs the year before. That screams longevity.

treeleaf
04-04-2012, 06:47 PM
lol riiiiight. He had a great half of one season last year, and he hit a lot of Hrs the year before. That screams longevity.

He was arguing that bautisa has produced on a longer scale than kemp has.
That was the point of the whole thread, to choose between the two.

Sorry that you missed the mark.

mtf
04-04-2012, 07:25 PM
lol riiiiight. He had a great half of one season last year, and he hit a lot of Hrs the year before. That screams longevity.

Top 5 in MVP voting both years.

Here's his month-by-month split stats. It was hardly just half a season of great play last year. It was half a season of better-than-great, then the second half was merely "great":
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=bautijo02&year=2011&t=b#month